Let's Talk Airgun Slugs - Design, Testing, Development (With Roelf Vorster)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 10 ก.ย. 2024
- With airgun slugs becoming more and more popular, I think it's time to have a chat! There are plenty of exciting things on the horizon, so let's meet up with my partner-in-crime at Patriot Slugs, Roelf Vorster, and discuss what goes into the design and development of precision swaged airgun slugs.
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We are having problems (once again) with shipping companies that have refused to ship to the USA. I believe a couple other manufacturers have recently encountered the same problems shipping from Europe to the USA. This means, frustratingly, that the container going to the US is going to be delayed again, but please know we are working around the clock to find a solution, even if it means shipping via another continent and making little to no profit.
The following goes back to the basis of the video: I've been doing some trial and error research on ballistic with the air gun slugs; and I have come up with some valuable information. I've seen in my trials that the projectiles from an air gun with a Medium to Large hollow point has two benefits in its favor. One is that the projectile delivers more energy upon impact, secondly it seems to produce a better ballistic number. I've compared similar style projectiles with the only difference being the head point. In several cases, there were three groups of tests being done consisting of range, accuracy, and energy transfer between the solid/ round point, narrow hollow point, and the large hollow point. Unlike a powder burner, the ballistics improved with the larger hollow point. My theory is that with the air gun projectile traveling at subsonic velocities they don't produce the supersonic or hypersonic shock wave that breaks up the surrounding atmosphere that reduces the drag on the projectile. I've seen in the majority of cases where the projectile got more distance and better accuracy from the identical style projectile that was a large hollow point compared to a narrow hollow point and a round nose. I can only conclude that there is more drag being produced on the narrow and round point slugs versus the large hollow point. Also, in theory, there may be a cushion of air trapped at the head of the large hollow point that guides the surrounding air across the head of the slug which would reduce the total drag on the slug; similar to the shock wave in a hypersonic or supersonic projectile.
@@Davscamaro This is not contrary to firearms, or powder burners. It is exactly what has been known for years in handgunning. Please see my post below. KnifeMaker
Sounds like need a plant in USA
Glad to hear there will be. 25 and .30 caliber slugs coming !
I am excited about this
EDgun Leshiy is shooting .30s for years.
@@unbekannternr.1353. Not .30 Javelin slugs.
Thx for the information of the slugs
Do you start making them in 177? We are some country's there only youse that calibre
Best regards Jesper
Fantastic progress guys! It is very nice to be a part of what you are doing and by invoking your customers, you grow the industry even more....Keep up the great work!
Listening to the physics around slug dynamics would suggest that there is place for high power .177 also.
What may be of interest to you is the. 577 minie ball shape....
I imagine you may have looked at this so it would be interesting to know why nobody has done a similar projectile for airguns other than its only recently high power airguns have become "affordable" or popular.. I have a long and varied shooting interest and have returned to airguns as great progress in design has occurred...
From shooting muzzle loaders for many years, especially my. 577 2 band volunteer has been fed many different types of 'improved' minie ball..... They live in the sub/trans sonic zone, have a deep skirt to expand into rifling and though not being hollow point (flat nosed are accurate and deliver energy impressively) tumble and provide large wound tracts...
I think they could be a useful slug design that may be more forgiving on different barrel types...
Proven on the battlefield in large caliber but may not work for airguns or computer simulation...
I would be very interested in your thoughts...
Keep up the good work, always informative and entertaining.
Cheers from the UK
Nice too see Roelf sitting next beside you He deserves more subscribers on his channel,so talented!!
Would be nice too see you make a longer hunt video together
Great work guys
Well slugs and airguns have shurly come a long way since the .22 LR bullets I tried shooting in my Webley Tracker back in the late 80's :-)
Keep up your great work and contribution to the air gun community!
I thought I was the only one that did this. Sadly it didn't work, but I got my butt whooped by my dad for screwing up a gun.
Thank god for you guys, this hobby is getting so fun and exciting. You guys are the pioneers and innovators that will go down in the history books. Killing the game! Thank you!
I would give this two thumbs up if I could, looking forward to getting the Maverick and some of these Slugs.
Air guns ten years into the future will be amazing going by the progression of the last ten🤔.
Thanks guys for what you do.
Peace be upon you brother
Big fan from Turkey🇹🇷
Waiting patiently for the .177/4,5mm slugs, as larger calibers aren't allowed here.
@@joshuagibson2520. NSA makes .177 slugs.
@@joshuagibson2520. Your welcome.
That's Pioneer.... Good job for your hard work, Thumbs Up Matt & Roelf 👍🏻👍🏻
What would be a better choice for shooting slugs from an non fx airgun? Standard rifleing or a polygonal barrel ?
polygonal one
I would also like to know.
Running RTI prophet. And a old BSA r10mk2.
I been shooting slugs from standard rifleing barrels. The groups are not really impressive at 100 yards. Im getting a inch and a quarter inch and half. 14:22 if you take a look at the rifleing on the slugs. It looks like polygonal rifleing.
Polygonal is better in theory. But finding one that shoots slugs consistently is a different story, slugs have to be sized right and I’ve found the chokes are not very consnstent
Thanks for your efforts, it will show up in your pocket at some point and lead the market as well. Great Job!!
I feel you Guy's are doing a fine job. I do feel like you are a swimming against the current however. With the restrictions you experience there, as well as air gunners in UK and most of Europe, it is difficult. In other words, you are not that familiar with what has go before. You touched on it a bit here in this vid.
Slugs have been big with many of us here in the U.S. for years now. One of the first things I would suggest would be to forget comparing slugs to firearm rifle bullets. It is a fool's errand. Rather look at the very huge strides made in Handgun ballistics. This is far more similar to what we do with our Airguns. Particularly in fps to fpe results.
Even here in the U.S. there is a reluctance to draw data from firearm results. There seem an almost dogged self induced ignorance of what has come before and learned over the years. It seems an odd movement to not think of air gun shooting being in any way similar to firearm shooting. This is much our chagrin. They are both shooting disaipens an are closely aligned. ( I well remember one member ona well known air gun forum saying he hated firearms and if he leaned one of his friends owned a firearm, he would never speak to him again). He seem totally oblivious to the fact that he too was enjoying sport shooting. Never understanding it was the same, regardless of how the projectile was indeed propelled from the barrel. Iit is all shooting and the same principles apply!
I would strongly suggest studying such notables as the renowned Elmer Keith who pioneered the modern handgun bullet. He proved years ago what you are just now learning and discovering about lower velocity (Subsonic) ballistics. I guess what I am trying to say is that you are deep in experimentation and testing to eventually learn you have been trying to reinvent the wheel. It has already been done for you. The research is there. Thankfully, the Handgun sports shooting here in the U.S. has a huge following, and has given us the kind of easy info that is not so common in "Europe, UK and others parts of the world.
(Elmer Keith was the handgunner who experimented with duplex loads and gave us the .357 magnum, 41 magnum, 44 magnum and developed the well known 257420 slug used in Australia for roo hunting. He is the most revered name in all of handgunning). It must be noted that our slugs more closely match the parameters of handgun performance per caliber than any modern rifle round.
There many-many articles about his research and discoveries. He still holds the longest record kill on an Elk with a handgun at over 700 yard. Many years ago. with exactly what you have now discovered. The slower ogive, and wider meplat. Look up Keity Bullet. Every reloading manual has it, and most manufactures either make it or copy it. As do I.
I design slugs, for both my own enjoyment and help with the designs of some of the manufacturers. Only Wish I could send pic' of some of the results. Which of course cannot be done here.
KnifeMaker
Absolutely agree. Slugs have been around but Matt started the craz🙌🏻
Have you ever thought of a round nose bullet, with a hollow core? I'm imaging a round nose hollow core, where the front 1/3 of the lead is very thin, and a sold base. Upon impact, it would act like a hollow point, pushing the nose down into the cavity, creating a great mushroom affect....at least in my mind it looks good. So happy for your guys success, keep up the good work.
Manufacturing that would be a challenge, to say the least
Matt,
As i am following your channel quite some time now, I am interested in purchasing FX Maverick, 580 cc, scope and all other accessories required for it, and wanted to ask you your opinion about which caliber should I aim for? I am from Croatia, Europe, and in my country any kind of airgun is legal (18 years +). This airgun i would mostly be using for hunting some birds (often), jackrabbits (occasionally), but i am also interested in hunting wild hogs (from time to time), who are litteraly coming to our doorsteps, destroying the gardens and are no afraid of humans. With firearms we can not shoot less then 300 m from the houses, so airgun is the only option.
Would .22 with 70-80 ft-lbs slugs @900+ fps be enough for hog headshots at 20-70 meters distance or would you rather recommend .25? Is there greater benefit from .25 comparing it with .22 in stoping power and balistics, and in considering long distances? Considering birds would be target 90% of time, what would be general opinion between this calibers? Thank you for your response!
just an amazing video guys really. thank you so much for sharing your info and being such awesome assets to the airgun world
Matt you are legend! I remember when you were just shooting your woodstock Air Arms. You truly did start the SLUG revolution...I was there lol. I personally think it should be called the Dubber Revolution!
Well said guys, I am ever appreciative of the the science behind the ideas you discuss. I am also thankful for the benevolent attitude you fellas maintain. Solid people so you are and to me that tops your obvious shooting abilities and the immediate benefits of the information provided. So excited that Patriot has sorted out the customs issues and that we can once again start to enjoy your products in the US. Indeed it is an exciting time to be an air gunner!
Great discussion! I am so glad you design your slugs with testing on live ballistic gels. So many of firearm bullet manufacturers have become obsessed with high BC and hyper velocity that they have forgotten not everyone uses their projectiles to punch paper or ding steel and some of us need the bullets to expand in game.. Can't wait for that container to hit the US stores.
Thanks for the information about slugs. Keep it up. Looking forward to getting them in the us. Love the videos keep them coming. Thanks for being in the fore front of air guns.
Hey Matt when are we gonna get some 25 to 35 cal slugs🙏
Hi Guys , will you be adding lighter slugs to the 22 , like maybe 19gr , 21gr , 22gr
for the less powerfull pcp guns
Correction: The whole air rifle slug craze in .22 caliber would have had a slower start, if not for Matt's involvement with FX. Larger caliber air rifle slugs, fired from appropriate barrels have been around far longer in the USA. Now many Yanks are developing .172 and .177 slugs too; so you guys may need to talk FX into supporting that.
That is why I specifically said smallbore slugs and said “guns like the Air Force Texan are an entirely different story”
THANX FOR ALL YOUR HARD WORK
Groeten uit Nederland!!!
You guys should work more on improving accuracy and range of the .22 pellets. If we wanted to shoot massive slugs and be limited by capacity, wed just be shooting 22lr or 17 hmr s.
Interesting video. Thanks. Both of you are knowledgeable and are willing to share. Blessings
Can these type of slugs be used in a strong springer?
thatmk you for your effort to make airgunning better. I have a quick question. Iwas wondering if you could make a 20 gr and 18 grain. .217 slugs for the mid high level air rifle, (IE) FOR MY Umarex Orgin and Air Venturi Avenger. FOR THE less expensive rifles out there . But thank you for your time and great job on the slugs
Thanks for picking up the sluggish pace fellas! Does the, right diameter, hollow nose increase the BC in subsonic flight by generating a buffer air layer of lower dynamic friction coefficient around the bullet? Like reducing drag by driving faster in a pickup truck? Have you experimented with reducing the diameter of the hollow nose (to a pointed nose perhaps) and carving a groove around the nose. Could help by reducing the amount of air needed to create a buffer layer from a single large vortex in the hollow nose to a thin toroidal vortex ring around the nose. Fun stuff to think about, and test...
Cheers!
Awesome work guys, keep it up.
every thing is great as long as matt and the guys standing behind this product
and i am a big believer in you but please reconsider the prices 💐
great video, I have been waiting for the .25 cal slugs from Patriot since you started producing .22 cal slugs, as soon as the .25 cal are on Airgun101 I will buy some - come on lads
Nice and pretty interesting discussion topic guys. Keep up the good job.
You may find interesting as well the story of Boeing’s abandoned Sonic cruiser design for the subsonic B787 Dreamliner instead. Lots of aerodynamic lessons there about the challenges of transonic flight region. :-)
Is there going to be a .22 sample pack available with different grains and both .217/.218 sizes for testing?
Great content. Glad to see the slugs picking up speed ( pardon the phun) in airguns. 40 gr 0.22cal...looks like you are pushing it...i mean there is an upper limit of the SD that you can push through an air gun. Even if you crank your regulator to say 200bar you can't expect more than high 250ish m/s out of a standard 600mm barrel while you want to be at 300m/s no matter the caliber. In other words the mean pressure of your firing cycle available to you is what limits to a certain SD. I don't see mainstream manufacturers making a regulated gun that spits 40 gr slugs at 22cal...the regulated presdure would need to be like 230 bar thus cutting into your shot count.
We are waiting to see .25 and .30 caliber
Great video!
Could there be slug length details added to the website? This would help the customer ballpark on what would fit.
This is a amazing step in the history of Airguns, I’m excited gosh what next? Tom LI NY
Bonjour à quelle vitesse le 56 grains se regroupe le mieux ? Canon Fx de 700mm en 1:18’ merci
A great place Mat...
Any advice on slug to try for .22 Daystate Wolverine B barrel, at about 30 ft lbs?
I have an Daystate Airwolf MCT .22 at 35 ft/lbs. You will have a lot of resistance with .218 or .217 slugs going into the LW barrel. The FX .22 slugs also seat hard (.2175-.218) and are not accurate compared to JSB 18s or Hades. The JSB Knockouts (.2165-.217) also don't shoot accurately compared to JSB 18s or Hades. I’ve tried all the NSA .22s. My best luck on the slug side so far is the NSA .216s at 20g (850 fps) and 17g (890 fps) and yes, those are accurate. The 20.2’s are the most accurate, but I loose 4fpe compared to the JSB 18s. However, the NSAs at that speed do NOT expand. You can see my review on airgunnation. I’m waiting eagerly for the Patriots to get here. I have a 700mm Impact MK3 on order specifically for Patriot slugs.
I really enjoy your videos!!! Keep up the good work and appreciate the time you put into the videos!!! I would love to see what you can do with a .30 and .35 cal slug!!!
early muzzle loader had it right for their velocity !
Tq for the video..please do a hunt with m3.really looking forward for m3 capability
My .25 impact mk2 with 700 superior heavy shoots slugs with a bc of over 1.
As a hobby slug designer, I feel glad I came the right way!!
Unfortunately, producing one in my country, is merely in dark grey zone.
Importing requires license... Really unfortunate...
Awesome info guys, thanks!
Matt/Roelf, excellent video and path forward. Please consider designig an integrated "range finder" into the new M3 barrel shroud like the optional chronograph. This would be an excellent opportunity for Element Optics I would think. This would be very desirable with the adjustable turrets on the Element scope offerings. Thank you.
Roelf what happened to Air Hunters channel?
Never see Rolf and Gerard together anymore ??
What about slugs with boattails? Isn’t there an increase in BC?
just need to make a manufacture in the US.
Personally I think that the production of current technology (pressing, swaging) for development of new slugs is practically meaningless and belongs to the 20th century.
We are able to test (produce and test on a target) about 15-20 types of airgun slugs shapes with a single CNC machine per day, with total different lengths and shapes of the front and rear and, of course, different diameters. Changing the diameter is a matter of seconds. The change in length can be from hundreds of mm to units of centimeters. All this only for the price of lead and electricity .No tools need to be produced .
How long would such a test take using the current pressing, swaging technology and what would be the cost?
We currently have a .25 caliber project that has a BC 0.215 and a length of only 10.9mm and works perfectly in a regular Lothar Walther airgun barrel and I believes it will work similarly in an FX barrel. It will be launched immediately after the completion of the next production machine .
For .22 we are able to get to BC around 0.27 but it is necessary to use non standard airgun barrel. For the classic airgun barrel we are now on BC 0.18 and length only 9.4mm.
The funny thing is that we haven't even started the real hard development slugs yet, as we spend a minimum of time developing new slugs, because our main focus is on completing our M24 PCP rifles.
I understand the other slugs manufacturers they do not currently have a better tool , but it is already the same situation where people blindly stayed to the old steam engine, although it was clear that they would be replaced by an internal combustion engine.
I understand if this comment will be deleted or hidden, but believe me, the historical path of development more accurate airgun shooting is the path of CNC turned slugs. All current evidence points to this.
I bought a .25 cal. maverick absolutely love it! I've been shooting 25.39 gr. Jsb Diablo pellets extremely accurately, but I really want to start shooting some FX hybrids slugs. I have only tuned the regs for what I'm shooting currently and that's it. What do I need to do to start shooting slugs? Power kit , barrel, what ammo is best? Target shooting and hunting med game??
Nice my frend
Hi....i'm from Indonesia🇮🇩
Ndk bisa bahasa Inggris..sya juga dri indonesia bng..hehe
@@manhuntingwae 😂😂😂
@@joshuagibson2520 Hi... friends
Hello guys,
I've been a keen follower of Mat's work from the very beginning and he is one of the people responsible for my experiments with slugs. I've got two questions and i hope that you can answer these.
1. Bearing in mind the fact that there are many shooters in this sport who are not interested in hunting but enjoy LR and ELR i would like to know whether you are planning to make a sort of slug projectile without the hollow point, since such a feature has no effect for target shooting, we usually shoot at steel targets.
2. If we compare standard .22LR ammo and the most powerful .22 PCP rifles we can conclude that .22LR and 40 grain slug are very similar in terms of velocity and energy. I would like to know what are your experiences when comparing these two in their LR and ELR role. Furthermore, we know that certain shooters using bergara b14 or vodoo ravage achieve excellent resulta at respectable distances of 500 and even 1000 yards so I would like to know your opinion on using high-end pcp for those distances and with same effect, of course gun being tuned and customised previously.
Thank you for your time and best regards from Serbia.
P.S. If you consider it more practical you may also reply at ledeni012@gmail.com
Are some of these slugs going to be tested if rifles other than a FX as i dont own one i shoot other rifles ?
Love you from Pakistan.
Great shooter both of you
Great video guys. Very informative on the how and why slugs do what they do. Matt talking about the 22 cal is the sweet spot of slugs and air rifle’s. I’m so glade I changed my mind from a 30 cal to a 22 cal Maverick. I’ll get the Impact M3 in 30 cal maybe you’ll have perfected them by then. The wait time for the M3 is 4 to 6 months unless you have a So African accent. 😂😂😂
One more thing...what is your experiance with in-flight stability of hollow point (CG moved back) vs hollow base ( CG moved forward? ( constant mass in both cases) Terminal performance disregarded in this case.
Air Guns and Ammo are there, but i wish the Prices for Slug capable Air Rifles would come down too. No FX under 1100$ + Pump + Reservoir= 1500+$ and stuff like Impact easily 2000+$
Maybe we get lucky and Hatsan or Benjamin is bringing a Slug Thrower for 750$.
I am really pleased that you are going to be doing.25 slugs , will they be sold in the UK ? If not will we be able to buy them direct from you ? Great show, keep up the good work 👍👍👍
Testing yeah I’ll do it just on the FX barrels or multiple manufacturers barrels
What would you say minimum FPS would be to get expansion on your slugs
Griffinslugs 22 and 25s will expand reliably down to 550.... They really expand big time at 700... At 800fps they will pretty much come apart... At 700fps on 10% gel a 24g 22 will expand to right at .35... Griffin slugs really expand.... They also shoot extremely well out of ST, STX liners... The deep cup versions shoot well out of the pellet and slug liners and the shallow cup in slug liners... The shallow cups shoot well out my LW Poly barrels as well.... The deep cups shoot well in normal LW barrels so long as you push them in the 980+ range.... Sub 950 and LW barrels won't shoot them well...
I really love Griffin slugs, the down side is they cost a lot more then NSA, JSB, H&N slugs.... Hell they cost more then Hybrids....
It goes boom
So......25 and 30 cal are coming to the states soon?
I wish i was born in other countries thats allow bigger caliber than 177 alone 😁😁 UNDER 15FPE IS simple not enough...
Some feedback for you guys. I bought some .217 23 grain patriot slugs and they would not feed in my impact mag. I have a pin probe. However NSA and JSB knockouts feed just fine. Also they would not group out of my A liner. Velocity of 960.
Love your videos Matt, but when you say you can't give the formula for the lead slug, I almost choked on my coffee. The formula for lead is Pb and has an atomic weight of 207.2 +/- 0.1u. Next, 100% pure lead does not exist just like sulfuric acid at 100%. The closest you can get is 99.999% outside of a laboratory environment. I design wet lead acid batteries and the best are the ones closest to 100% Pb, which are very expensive, but the best. Now, if you meant to say that your pellets are made of a proprietary lead alloy (mixture of two or more metals) then I can understand your statement. Tin is added to harden, and the more added, the harder it gets, but the more coefficient of friction in the barrel travel which will convert some of the kinetic energy (Ke) into frictional energy that will be transferred to the barrel as heat energy. Fine and dandy, I still love your slugs, if I can get more of them. Another question: The can states Ballistic Coefficient (BC) at 950 fps, but at what distance or range? I understand the stated average, but are you averaging between 10 yards and 1,000 yards, or 25 yards and 50 yards? The BC is a component of velocity, and at every yard travelled, it has a different velocity and thus a different BC, no matter how slight, it will be different. I feel a BC at 50 yards, or meters would suffice for us shooting just above or below said distance range. Furthermore, when I calculated the form factor (i) on the cans at 8:00, they went up by 0.009/gr then down by 0.002/gr then back up by 0.004/gr, which leads me to believe that whomever shot the BC calculations used two different ranges. By how far? I wouldn't know, but estimate approximately 10 yards. Lastly, can you make me an experimental slug of 658mm 'caliber', weighing 25.91 grains? I called it the FJB caliber and soon you will be hearing about it because it will be right down your alley with your fine skills in explaining difficult subjects so smoothly and eloquently. I'll send you a copy of the transcript to my book for your review.
Cheers! from north of the equator where you have to lead the shot due to the Coriolis effect and the magnus force, and curvature of the Earth because contrary to popular belief, they are effective even at the micron distance if you are doing quantum mechanic mathematics, as I do.
Do you ever think that we'll ever get big bore air rifle shooting at 1600fps? Ever in the future?
Is fx going to ever make a 30 cal slug or stx barrel for my fx wildcat mark 2...? I need one badly.i don't want to sell it it's a keeper.please let me know.thanks tak in usa king nc.
Sounds to me like .22 caliber maybe the best for airgun slugs over all when it comes to ballistics.
Howdy! Just want to say - i have noticed you have commented on these guys' videos a lot - especially regarding the Nova Vista / Liberty .22... I also LOVE mine, did the standard upgrade tunes - but i completely redesigned my complete shroud from stainless steel, then integrated my silencer into it - so shroud exactly the same length as standard, only silver and around 78 dB on high power... Its INSANE. Have a good one!
Thanks for all the info you put out. I have HW 100 in .22 and I can't get the accuracy I would like with the Patriot slugs. Can you give me some suggestions? thank you
Great video , keep it up
Can you design a slug that will work with good bc for us sub 12ftlb Uk hunters?
interesting question - is there a point on the power scale at which the conventional diabolo becomes more effective? And more cost effective?
What about Gerard? Why is he not present or even mentioned?
How do the patriot slugs perform in the Hatsan barrels with a 1 in 17 twist and a .217 diameter?
how many are caliber 177 to Indonesia sir
Have you tried making lighter slugs for 12ftlbs Air guns we have to use in the UK?
They would need to be light for caliber, else the velocity would be too low for long range flat shooting. Even if that sounds backwards, a slug with the same mass as a light pellet would have a higher BC. Making the slug with thin walls and a large hollow cavity would be the way to do it. An FX Hybrid on steroids in terms of construction. Essentially a lead jacked with an air core.
This slug has different length so will there be a problem in the magazine feeder
Where do i buy element scopes in SA cant seem to find a place
I never tried FX hybrids or Javelins. H&N and JSB Knockout . Its all about the price and pcs for me.
Bro is there any chance to shipping on South India
For 700mm Impact MK3 in .22 go with "ballistic king' 34g but in .217 or .218?
How much are the new "harmonic tuners" barrel tuners going to affect the performance of(particularly) heavier slugs?
Hello master...Im from Indonesia..🇮🇩
Will you look at. 177 slug as we in Zimbabwe need a license for. 22
any thoughts on .177
Is there a reason why you didn't create slugs with boat tails or recessed boat tails? Would it not really improve the bc in subsonic flight?
We tested, it actually made it worse because they didn’t fly as well even with very fast twist rates. The flat base helps to keep the slugs very stable, which in turn helps with both accuracy and BC.
I bought my AA 22 fac based on your earlier videos on your channel. I can't afford to upgrade to FX unfortunately. Is there a slug that will work with my current set up?
It would be great to have a barrel that can shoot 18 grain JSB and 35-40grn slug equally well without the need to changing the liner.
Will there be a .177?