Machine Shop Tools: The Cylinder Square!
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 ส.ค. 2024
- All about the very handy Cylinder, a must have machine shop tool. Featured in this video is the Brown & Sharpe No. 558 and a Magnetic cylinder or cylindrical square and some basic instructions on how to use in the shop.
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Machine Shop, Machinist, Restoration, Vintage Machinery, Metalworking, Keith Rucker, VintageMachinery.org, cylindrical square, surface plate, brown & sharpe, brown & sharpe 558, brown & sharpe 558 cylindrical square, magnetic cylinder square, squarness, cylinder square, american rotary phase converter, american roatry, tramming milling machine head, milling machine tramming tool, metrology, surface plate uses, cylindrical square use, squareness testing, squareness gage
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This was my grandfather, John F. Prince’s invention. He owned Prince Tool & Die in Syracuse, NY. I have all original drawings, etc. Nice to see this. ❤
I remember when I was serving my apprenticeship in the early 60's in the UK several of these cylindrical squares were made in the toolroom. It was easy to get a piece of tool steel machined on a lathe and get it hardened but you had to get round Arthur who operated the cylindrical grinder. You could then get it checked in the standards room.
To finish they would be oiled and then dipped in plastic protective covering.A useful tool for checking the accuracy of squares etc.
Regards from Redruth
Arnold
About waiting on something "rare" to come up on eBay (something I have done many times). Instead of looking for it every day or week, and potentially missing a "hit", you can do the following. First set up a search for the item (you might find nothing). Then click on "Save this Search" at the top of the page. You should then get an email whenever the eBay search engine finds something. Hints: You can search for spelling variations by putting works inside parenthesis e.g. (Starret, Staret, Starrett) which will return any items whose description contains any of the three (mis)spellings. You can also remove search words by using a "negative" parenthesis, e.g. -(brown, sharpe, mitutoyo) which will NOT return any items whose description contains any of these words - handy to get rid of the chaff and find the wheat. Best of luck finding your rare item!
i have one from my father and from what i can remember he made it at a shop he worked at in the 40's or 50's. I have it in felt that mum made i gather and will make a box for it now. It is one of my treasured tools from dad as we worked together.
Those dots that form curved lines are meant to measure the deviation from square on parts that are shorter than the square if I'm not mistaken. Rotate till you've eliminated the light gap then read where the top corner of your part lands between the lines.
That's what he said, if I'm not mistaken.
I almost expected you to put on a pair of white cotton gloves like they use in museums when handling artifacts.
yea, but NOOOOOO the risk of dropping it goes up.. I imagine oils from the hands, and acids do act on the metal minutely over time...but the risk of dropping certainly goes up.
Just wipe it down with oil when you put it away. They're tools made to be used.
COOL! Thanks for sharing! Brilliant underlying idea! Belated KUDOS to B&S!
After seeing your video about quick tram alignment and realizing the potential time savings, I started pricing cylindrical squares and quickly learned that they were out of my price range so I started thinking about alternatives. I saw that 2-4-6 blocks would also work and they were affordable so I bought a pair. A single block stood upright works for quick tramming and in addition I've found various other uses for them. For instance, if I need a big vise for horizontal milling I clamp one down to the table using my clamping kit as a fixed jaw and then I use the threaded holes and bolts through the other block as the moveable jaw and it makes a dandy vise for holding larger work, as well as for general milling blocking. Thanks for the idea Keith.
When I was a student at TAFE I made one of these...........no sweat, chuck it in the lathe, cajole the storeman into giving you a new insert, try and find out what steel it is, set the machine and press the GO button. The thing turned out perfect, first go............the teacher could not find any error with the equipment at hand in the workshop.
I wrapped it up in felt it's still in the cabinet waiting for the day I turn out perfect work again. That was 60 years ago!!!!
Stavros
i have been a home shop machinist for over 40 yrs, and i have seen cyl squares. they are extremely precise and beautifully made . but they are and probably will remain at the bottom of my must have tool list.although i do understand a tool collectors desire to own one of these. that new shop is filling up fast keith.
I remember seeing B&S catalogs offering the 558 when I was too young to know how to use one. Now. I'm old enough to know, B&S is a memory, but they sure made so fine instruments.
That cylinder square tool looks perfectly _normal_ to me...
(sorry, could not resist)
That is officially the biggest granite square I have ever seen. The divisions on the cylindrical square are a nice touch
Very intriguing and interesting, particularly liked the setup for checking squareness using the magnetic base square and an indicator. Thank you for showing.
Keith, Intriguing tool, thanks for sharing your video.!.!.!.
I can recall a demo my apprentice master did for me a life time ago where he slowly brought the anvils of a micrometer together and we watched the light pass through. He got to about .00025” or a quarter of a thou and the light stopped passing through.
He explained this was because of the wave height of the light.
We just accepted it as being the truth at the time. Hey google was many years away.
What a very interesting tool that is and surprisingly simple. Thanks for sharing. Now I want one, I just don’t need one.
I love nice things in wooden boxes though :)
Hi Keith,
I have never seen one of these before... How nice of the seller to sell it at a reasonable price, clearly he is a good guy.
Take care
Paul,,
I ran a Brown & Sharp screw machine for about a year. I never learned set up very well, but would hold tolerances within a few thousands for thousands of parts. Just had to maintain tool sharpness and oil flow to take care of the tools. It had pneumatic stock feed. They also had Davenport's which would turn out many small parts with close tolerance.
I LOVE the box.. I think I'm gonna make one.. Gonna do some online shopping for the hardware, lol. Thanks for the inspiration !
Good job Keith. I am a patron supporter at $2 a month. Well worth it!
I have my dad’s.
Priceless.
Thanks,
John
Was hoping you'd put a bit of tissue paper under the granite far corner as a shim to demonstrate out of square.
I saw the post on Instagram... Thanks for the explanation as to its usage.
Brown and Sharpe did make some neat and interesting tools. My personal favorites are the height and depth gage attachments for combination squares.
Also I have never seen a square like your B/S on the end checks the amount out of square.
I can understand why it costs so much and why it is so desirable to have.
Always like to see things I have never seen before!
Knowing the history behind the
Brown & Sharpe 558 now, I'm so happy that you were able to get yourself one, Keith! If there's one guy on God's green earth who deserves it, it's most certainly you!!👊😉
Ureka! It's a gudgeon pin from a big marine piston! Same thing really.
Hah ! Joss ... ya got in just ahead of me !! 😎👍☘🍺
@@peterfitzpatrick7032 Well it's really John Miller's idea. His you tube is Doubleboost.
In the job shop I worked in as an apprentice we had a 6x24 in. we used to set up our boring mills,we had 5.
We have a few of these in the shop I work in. Very handy tool. Ours don't have the lines on the side. They work well with a squareness comparator and an indicator instead.
I had seen one before, maybe Tom Lipton had one. Maybe someone else. enjoy your new tool. That is so smart.
I've never seen one of those and now i must have one. How cool. Love the videos Keith, thanks for what you do!
We had the magnetic post type in our toolroom. We were never permitted to simply set it on a surface. Wipe the work surface and base with a clean rag then wring those surfaces with your palm before making contact. Always storing in it's wooden case.
Keith has all the cool toys! 🤠
Thanks
Very nice Keith, much enjoyed the video. Thanks very much! Joe
Henry Sharpe married Peggy Browne. They are neighbors of mine here. Yet the reason that Brown & Sharpe are not known here in the states is that they moved to Switzerland and only deal with comapnies that have deep pockets.
Really? No mention of how the union basically destroyed the company?
Reminds me of an old dog food commercial of the 50's where the dog says-
" How do you put a square meal in a round can" And his mouth goes from square to round as he speaks.
I remember the commercial but not the brand. Might just surf and look for it.
Such a nice piece! Great find Keith.
A clever piece of kit!
Thanks for another great video!
I had it in my watch list for the last 2 months, I started to by it 3 weeks ago, and decided I need to not spend the money, the went over the weekend to by it and come up as the time was run out on it.
It would have been nice to see you check something that was actually out of square with the new cylinder square. But interesting video. Thanks.
To be fair he showed how light shines through when its out and by how much.
It's OK Keith, we're with you. No need to convince us. Unless you think Mrs Rucker may be listening in.
Thank you for the video! Very informative!
When will we get to hear about the stocker engine I’d love to see the finished product and also see it run and work on the locomotive it belongs too also just want to say what a joy it is to watch your channel very educational you have been a great help to me on my small 6” lathe hope to watch more I’m a follower and have been subscribed for a couple of years now stay safe and god bless....
I'm a retired toolmaker and I have to say I've never seen a square like that one.
Dan Godbout I’ve seen one on a channel before and it was definitely either Tom Lipton at OxTools or Robin Renzetti at ROBRENZ
@@0verboosted comes to mind OXTOOLS I Recall
Very nice tool. Thank you for the review.
Hiya Kieth
You will notice that the light passing through the gap between the cylindrical square and a surface under comparison will shift to the blue end of the spectrum (shorter wavelengths) as the gap becomes narrower.
I could be mistaken, but I believe Mr. Pete Found a cylinder square on one of his auctions. If I recall correctly it was a Taft Pierce.
Never seen such a tool. Very interesting.
Greetings & salutations. Wishing you well. Thanks for sharing.
Please let us know when you get through that hurricane; I know you are 60 miles from the coast, but it will still pack a wallop with wind and rain. I saw my share of them on Long Island, even went through the eye of one once!
THANK YOU...for sharing. Very nice.
Cool beans!!! Thanks for sharing!
Fascinating stuff,thankyou
Sweet tools!
Nice square, never seen one with the built in tilt. Hope to see it in use in future videos 👍
The built in tilt comes after the 2nd 6 pack.
Great video sir.
Thanks for sharing!
A cylindrical square isn't as efficient as a 2-4-6- block stood upright, because since the circular square is cylindrical, front-to-back out of tram will influence side-to-side out of tram, and vise-versa, unless you hunt for the high spot on the cylinder with each adjustment. So as Cap'n Crustry says , a 2-4-6 block, (if it's aligned to the T-slots with a 5/8 thick block sticking out of a T-slot), seems a faster way to tram.
Thanks for sharing
A piston wristpin from a big diesel makes a good cylinder square .. 😎👍☘🍺
very good
Adom79, Adam would love one of those Keith. He loves old instrument tools 😉
Thanks for all the great videos Keith 👍🇬🇧
Pi are Square too LOL
Hi Keith. I know this is an older video but I just thought I would ask. Couldn't you make one of these on your restored super precise lath? I am sure the tilt end would be the challenge.
neat
If anyone is wondering.. it is approx 600-800 dollars
2:09 & 2:20 - little spots of light about 2-3" up.
Seems that a good machinist, (my skills were more for plant maintenance) could make one on a well adjusted lathe.
We used tp have them 18” tall with a base of about 6” I don’t remember the manufacture
I am sure I could make a very accurate square like your Brown and Shape on my universal grinder.
But how to make it like it is on the opposite end l wouldn't know where to start . On the square end l would start with a piece of drill rod tool steel and face, cut a recess in the bottom, and center both ends. I would have it harded to about 60rc . I then would put it between centers and grind it straight with in
.0001". That would be half that per side . The harder part is to get the side of the wheel perfectly square to get a chris cross pattern on the bottom which would be perfectly flat. At that point it would be ready to be used . It should be accurate to at least .0001" or better. The other end that is something different all together.
I think you can actually see the light showing through at each of the dots...I bet you could show the light behind, twist the calendar and the dot that passed the top amount of light will mark how much the error is. The dots can act as light passages. Am I understanding that right...
HHIP ,Suburban,Fowler make them also .
So if you dont need that much of extreme precision you could make this on the lathe in 5 min.
Yes, but the Devil is in the detail, you first have to make the cylinder dead parallel and doing that on a lathe takes some doing.........for any but the most exacting work a piece of hard chromed bar cut from a hydraulic ram and faced off will be dead square any day of the week and it won't rust from handling.
@@gangleweed What a great idea using a hydraulic cylinder ram !
I guess you could also make a tapered one for setting up things.
Howdy
Hello Keith. Thanks for posting all the great videos. It's much appreciated! That said, I juat boyght a South Bend Fourteen lathe and it needs a few parts. Would you know where I could pick up a parts list?
Thanks
James
Neat... learnt something new today, cylindrical square (nice oxymoron.)
How difficult would it be to make one on a cylindrical grinder?
The bottom surface gets square no matter what, as the part rotates, as long as the spindle bearings are good.
The only problem I see is with the taper, but you can measure and correct for that.
the devil is in the details. heat ect. remeber the longer the part, the smaller the angle has to be to read out.
.0001 at 12 inches is allot.
make as you described and then lap the bottom in untill it reads 0 all the way around with your squarness comparator.
relive the bottom so it has like a 1/8th lip to ride on. it will be easier to lap. a full face will be very dificult to get flat. and will chatter on the surface plate.
you can do it!
You left off a key bit about a cylindrical square!
A shop-made version (of arbitrarily high precision!) is within reach for people that *don't* have precision-everything. (Not as pretty, no :D)
"Between centers" can make approaching-true-cylinder-walls. Facing gets rough-cut ends. Make two.
Then "just" do exactly what you showed with light between the two of them *with rotation* to see their errors ... and the inevitable lapping the ends to suit. Not one single precision tool needed beyond a surface plate.
we say "right angle" in Europa
How you choos your Career
Cylinder square does sound like an oxymoron. I can see how that would save time in initial setup.
😁😁😁
Welcome from Charlotte, N.C. and thanks for another great video. I've never owned a B &S. cylindrical but I fabricated the other type in my shop using a six inch length of .500 hardened & ground shaft with a three inch aluminum base. After embedding a small neodymium magnet in the base I chucked the shaft in an accurate 5C collet and carefully machined the base perpendicular. It checks accurate within a couple of tenths but must be handled very carefully to preserve accuracy. You mentioned tramming a machine table; here's another method. photos.app.goo.gl/muLS4ddTTYVgBQoe9 .
👍👍👍👍
👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍
Brown & Sharpe was such a great tool manufacturer, the measurement side and the machine tool side. It is a shame what unions/company executives do to businesses like these.
so how much are those going for nowadays....?
I saw one on ebay for $300 a few minutes ago and decided I didn't need it that badly.
Кто от Дядька Максима?
I've been looking for one of these for years. I really could use it in the shop but collectors gobble these things up so they can just sit and collect dust. Frustrating.
Don't drop it on the concrete floor :)
I still have no idea what the curved lines of dots are for. Listened to your "explanation" a couple of times and, well ...
Maybe somebody else can illuminate this for me?
The curved lines show the contact points for the noted amount of out of square. Consider the example where the piece being guaged was much less than the height of the cylinder. It shows where to look for contact.
One side is tilted like the leaning tower of Pisa. The normal tourist picture has the tower leaning toward the right. But if you were able to go around to the back it would appear that it was leaning to the left. Then on the sides it would be either leaning away or leaning towards you but the sides would be straight up and down. So, as you rotate the square around you can measure the tilt of how far it is out of square and whether it is leaning forward or backward. I don't know if that helps or not?
They are an indiicator of the number of degrees at the height of any specific dot. Say your test piece is only 3" tall off the surface plate, the ( roughly) 6" to the top of the Cylinder is not much help.. so, rotate it against the short test piece till the light gap goes away, and read the angle by the dot... following the arced line up dots from the contact at the top of the test piece, up the numbers on the top of the gauge Cylinder.
You did not show viewers how to use the square with an indicator, much better use than using a flashlight.