Rory Stewart Goes Back-and-Forth on US Foreign Policy and AI, with Diplomat James Rubin
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 9 มี.ค. 2024
- James Rubin served as U.S. Assistant Secretary of State for Public Affairs within the Bill Clinton Administration, here Rory Stewart challenges him on the present condition of US foreign policy, and the dangers of artificial intelligence.
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Episode Description
Loved Alastair’s face 😂
He is loving it!
Alistair looked like the cat that got the cream!
popcorn under the desk
What great back and forth. Words matter! I loved the push back on both sides. Good robust debate is essential.
I'm glad you also see it this way. People in the comments seem to think an interview like this is a fight, where one side wins and the other side is "DESTROYED!" I enjoyed both Rubin's and Rory's fighting spirit. The aim ought to be to gain understanding through arguments, not to have one's tribal champion defeat the other.
@@letMeSayThatInIrish We have lost the art of being able to disagree, debate and enter a powerful discourse which engages everyone. I thoroughly enjoyed it. Whilst I really enjoy this podcast / video channel, it is the robust exchange of ideas between people who are different, with different ideas and political persuasion’s attempting to forge a better road for the future. I like it equally when Alistair gets pushback from their guests. Keep up the great work on this channel!
The fact that Rubin doesn't understand how the US is viewed just demonstrates he is sat in a bubble.
Rory is absolutely correct that the world looks at US attitudes and sees it is going back to pre-WWII attitudes. It is seen as being weaker than it was in the past.
During the Cold War no one thought the US was weak. So having a Chinese growing power isn't what people are reacting to as Rubin suggests. It is the attitudes of both left and right in the US who are becoming more introspective.
I think Rory might be closer to the truth than Mt Rubin for sure.
Trump will gobble up the UK and sell it for spare parts to Russian oligarchs. You will learn to yearn for Pax Americana over the next few decades.
During the cold war we were facing catastrophic outcomes of that war. Nobody wants anothet world war. Nukes do a lot of damage.
But still isn’t really answering fundamental questions.
Rory is just brilliant here.
But James Rubin was better, except on AI - those companies know regulation will have to come and they want to control the agenda.
@@nicennice Going to be hard to regulate open source software, across the entire world. They can't control social media sites, so I have no idea how they can regulate AI?
@@sharpvidtube they can regulate what they can do in a certain country ie facial recognition on facebook was stopped.
No, Rory was pretty much destroyed here.
@@dddz961 Yes, I agree with you. Much as I enjoy listening to him I think he was comprehensively schooled by Rubin, who was aggressive but more realistic.
It’s much easier to understand why we are witnessing the end of American empire if these are the figures in the room.
America is NOT an empire and it had never been an empire. Superpower? Yes.
The idea that these AI companies are willingly going to be regulated is so naive it's hard to believe Rubin even said it.
What a touchy guy!
Great interview. Rory and James Rubin had a proper political debate. Rather than the usual tosh peddled by other so called politicians.
The reason for distrust in authority is really very simple.
It's because the answer to any challenge is no longer "You're wrong, please let me convince you why." Now it's, "You're wrong, shut up, and you're a horrible person for questioning me."
That's a better analysis than mine!
I think that I would add that the reason of this is the changing habits of the electorate.
Back in the 19th century, propaganda for many policies came in the form of long passages in broadsheets explaining policies (of course you would get "penny dreadful" news papers however those were mainly for the poor who initially couldn't vote). Since television and social media however, a more intellectual style of publicity is easily outstripped by simple messages.
I believe (and this is entirely theoretical) that we could return to proper politics with little multiple choice questions on the ballot paper which you have to get right as well as fifty word explainers of a particular policy.
The explainers would not be checked over and the answers to the multiple choice would likely be publicised by friends and politicians as soon as the questions came out. However the purpose is to at least incentivise more intellectual habits into the electorate.
Alastair just sitting back and eating the popcorn.
Which is a good thing. Alistair was listening and allowing the discussion between the two to develop. He didn't try to chip in.
I think naive was the perfect word, especially given he’s worked in the field for 25 years.
...and he did call Rory a 'chicken little' :)) You've got to take it if you're going to throw it out there
He keeps trying to unsettle Rory, who he has designated an 'enemy' rather than listen to what's said, he's looking for something to attack.
I think this is representative of most american discourse I've seen.
James is also extremely american-centric. For example "conspiracy theories began with JFK"
I think that this goes to show that the American huckster approach doesnt work in the UK. If this is what we get for American diplomats, it would explain a lot.
Great jostling - robust whilst remaining respectful (though the end was a little spicy!). Keep up the good fight Alastair and Rory.
The best episode in my book. Foray was tough but fair with his comments. Keep up the great debate.
You are a beacon of light Rory,. I am both inspired and comforted when listening to you debate issuers and the more I discover about you the brighter you shine in my eyes. You are a true giant amongst men.
Keep these clips coming. They are very good!
Rubin seems to have digested a large dose of sarcasm. It does him no credit.
Rubin is a typical American. Arrogant and always right.. This isn't a fairytale, dude
I've never seen Campbell looking so absolutely contented.
He is enjoying it!
Because he knows Rubin and had worked with both centre-left (Clinton) and right-wing (Bush II) U.S. governments. 😂
This was a superb discussion with two experienced and knowledgeable diplomats and politicians. I wish I had watched this when it was first released, rather than a week later
Oh Rory you really are the best !!!
Rory is completely correct about AI. There is very little reason to be optimistic about AI regulation. Watermarking, ‘misinformation protection’, etc will not last for long.
What a beautiful debate. This what I am here for.
Yes Good debate from both sides
Nothing wrong with a little disagreement and head butting.... Alastair is hilarious....
Which ever side you follow, it's refreshing to have a civilized discussion
He's a good example of showing how people in positions of more or less power are still all human, and prone to the same mistakes and biases as the rest of us mere mortals.
Seeing you guys in London today, looking forward to it.
This guy likes to play the victim “ the use of ‘you’…”.
He claims access to the back rooms of US foreign policy then distances himself from those policies.
To no one’s surprise he is playing both sides of the fence.
That’s what he does .
Brilliant discussion.
James was great to watch
You guys put on a great show.
Quite enjoyed this. Alistair sittng there smirking was the icing on the cake. These two seem to be able to have a bt back of forth wthout taking it to heart though.
I really enjoyed this debate. I hope all was cordial at the end so you can invite James Rubin back again.
You'd think being married to a cnn anchor, he'd understand the style of the interview and not come across as so defensive.
He seemed so prickly.
He took Rory’s “you” personally and got defensive about his own positions, when it was obviously referring to the whole of the US with no assumption that Jamie agreed with the US’s actions.
His hackles were up at Rory calling his position on AI regs “naive”, when he could have just defended his position. The “naive” was a comment on a single view of his, not a judgement on his whole personality.
When he defends himself he goes straight to a call to authority “I’ve been working in the area for 25 years”, rather than focusing on issues.
I don’t know anything about diplomacy so maybe I’m being naive myself, but I was surprised that he didn’t negotiate the conflict without making it personal.
Being married to a cnn anchor highlights everything that is wrong with american journalism
Deflection, he's a professional lol
AI companies may be asking to be regulated in public, but they're working diligently behind-the-scenes to ensure it doesn't happen.
Agreed, they may have learned to front run the PR battle.
Tech industry in a nutshell right now. I just read an interview with a psychologist who sits on an advisory board at Meta -- she'll probably step down now after 3 years as she's become convinced she's been used. They never listened to her, they never even intended to listen to her. We need much more regulation globally.
WOW thats a fragile ego.
I really enjoyed this discussion. Logical and explorative - dissecting the issues instead of sound bites - despite the American approach to "debate" i thought the diplomat was right in challenging the sweeping statements by Rory. Thank you
9:00 Alistair's face is brilliant
Interesting conversation. Rory Stewart and James Rubin both served as ‘diplomats’. However, judging by the tenor of the conversation the similarity ends there! One of them primarily achieved diplomatic status through journalism and politics, and another achieved this by being iinvolved in the diplomatic corps and military strategy at a high governmental level - being posted to any number of challenging regions - and by many accounts rising up the ranks within the secret service (which cannot be confirmed for very obvious reasons). If you check their back story on Wiki you will see that only one of these guys ‘walks the walk’.
Surely James understands the difference between plural "you" and singular "you".
Rory was right - he was being naive and the guys response saying... well I've been in this business for 25 years blah blah... was ridiculous.
Brilliant 👏
Gentlemen
Just a question if I may - sad that the broadcast was stopped after 18 minutes just when it was arriving at the crux of it I thought. Is there like to be a continuation please?
The hour long version is in the channel history
Rubin represents why the world is a mess and getting worse.
The word naive seems valid when applied to someone taking tech companies at face value.
about the ai companies asking for regulation. I think that's more about building a moat for smaller companies and open source models can't compete, more than it is "wanting to do right."
I thought I was listening to an episode of “the West Wing”. This guy sounds exactly like John Spenser who played Leo Magarry, President Bartlett’s Chief of Staff.
It’s a great view of recent history, but it would be nice if these guys would talk more about the future
End of part 1
America is in stagnation and is losing influence, Rory is right.
Then why is the UK opinion even relevant as UK influence is just a shdow of the US?.
It is like a mediocre teamplayer acusing the best player on te team for not playing well..
Reducing USA support in africa is a prime example. Trump reduced funding their. Where will they go? China and Russia.
@PMMagro that's exactly the problem, all of Europe (minus France) have become too dependent on America for military power, foreign diplomacy, and economic security. America is weakening. We must awaken to that fact and become self sustainable again. To fix the problem, we must realise and criticise it first , that is what I am doing and what others like Rory are doing.
@@PMMagro Does that make the opinion untrue?
We have been heading down that alley for alot longer🇬🇧
Rory taking a silly american to task. Wonderful.
Well this could be a nice chat in an Oxbridge pub near you. The reality is that Alastair and Rory (brilliant and incisive though they are) currently have as much political influence as the latest viral TicToc video given our present batch of social media, knee jerk politicians the UK has. conversely James Rubin is currently Special Envoy and Coordinator of the U.S. State Department's Global Engagement Center. So rightly or wrongly and naive or not, to me, Rubin is the only one who carries a real world stick.
Rory and Alastair do not pretend to be Special Envoy Coorodinators, they interview them debate with them, and point out their weaknesses, prejudices, vanity and naivity!!!!! And if Robin does carry a real world stick with a skin as thin as his and his inability to give legitimacy to an opposing view, it's no wonder the world is in the mess it is.
Wow, James is feisty in this debate😀
I've never been called Naive before..... Can't say that again!
The AI companies are publically asking for the regulation but behind close doors they asking the governments to not regulate them.
A little off topic, but does anyone know the title of the intro music ?
This does feel like one of those moments in history when an empire is coming towards the end of it's time, and it cannot see why everyone on the outside has a negative view of it. The British establishment still harks back to days of our empire and don't see it's negative effect on the world, it is inevitable that the US 'insiders' would fail to see the extent to which it's star is waning...
More of James Rubin please.
His upset with the word nieve was a dodge from the question “what are your concerns about AI”.
Rory might’ve said “everyone is nieve about AI, it’s emergent”
I’d say that’s a draw. RS and JR both got under the other’s skin. I think RS tends to fight uphill though by trying to root the conversation in detail.
I love James Rubin he certainly beat up Rory and Alistair ignored Rory's plea for help. Very entertaining discussion.
Good debate from both sides
Social media is a major factor in people's thinking 😂. J , your eyes are closed
Nice.
15:45
If there's anything that's naive it's this. That we'd be able to watermark ai images. The obvious solution is to run an ai on it again to remove the watermark. Be it embedded in the visual content or if its just in binary.
At best I can see us establishing a similar system to what drives HTTPS, certificate authorities. Basically big internet companies and others (anyone in principle) have special keys that your browser can recognize and verify that yes indeed someone approved this image. You choose who you trust with these systems and your browser comes with defaults.
But it does nothing to prevent the deceptive imagery. It just certifies who the source is. And it works for a webserver just as well as it would for an image.
It'll be a massive problem still. And you'll have to trust sources not what they've produced for you. Which isn't that different from today. It's just that it can be very convincing to see an image of exactly what's claimed and deception in that way will increase drastically.
Yes, I think that's the way things are heading. I can see a time when AI material is constantly being detected and filtered out in a similar way spam emails are, with only authenticated material being allowed through.
"a similar system to what drives HTTPS, certificate authorities."
Yes. Only that.
I remember Lex Fridman's interview with Ian Goodfellow, the inventor of Generative adversarial networks. He explicitly stated that as technology gets better, you cannot assurance authenticity from content alone, in principle.
😂😂😂 the CIA probably did have a hand in Kennedy’s demise 🙄
Very typical American politician here, the lack of objectiveness is clearly apparent.
Great interview. I think James is still wedded to a view of liberal western democracy that Clinton and Blair expoused. Its important to remember that the Clinton/Blair world view was a different beast to what followed Clinton (and yes, I do believe Blair stupidly thought he could swing Bush toward the Clinton/Blair hegemony). Its also important to note that James view of the importance of Western liberal democracy is entirely different to the analysis of players such as Douglas Murray - someone who's view of western democratic supremacy I have no time for.
I genuinely think James finds it difficult to accept Rory's analysis (which is v. Persuasive btw), because there is still a desire for the Clinton/Blair third way approach of the late 90s.
Hasn't this already be published some time ago?
When was it published ?
@@samjoshi1812 don't know but I have listened to it last week already.
@@samjoshi1812 The full interview was posted 2 weeks ago, this is just a cut version of it they've re-released.
James Rubin just rolled Rory over but it wasn't easy.
I think maybe there are two elements of influence the outward political staging and I think that architectural stage is changing but then there is back stage influence. That’s is going to always be far more complex. One the one hand de globalisation is something happening everywhere not just USA but also back stage alliance economic relations how trade is worked out is likely to be a more patch work picture. The emergence of Brics alliance the buying of gold by Russia China Middle East potential competitive currency to the dollar. That is emerging but the USA is a big country and has a big population and a lot of people want to live and work there so they are likely to be sustainable and self supporting in their own taxes and pension incomes. This means they kind of are independent so kind of can adapt and be ok in a de globalised world. I am not saying Washington Capitol Hill is not isolationist and lacks the touch of the common person burdened and blighted by loss of buying power with shrinking salaries in real terms. But the position of the state to be isolationist from the common person is a world wide trend. U.K. council tax climbing energy cost climbing food cost climbing GDP shrinking. How to make turnips interesting feels very medieval and feudal to me. Nothing against turnips but life is really hard. The worst of it is this was not the promis or sell we thought we were inside a world of progressiveness. Only to find out the modern world hasn’t figured it out. So I think if the USA is outwardly changing its gaze to its homeland issues or at least is staging it that way then they kind of have to because everyone is in the same maze trying to find an approach to stabilise economic forces. Scale of population to bring in revenue is important and having access to people’s who want to be in your country when Weston population is decreasing is I think more important to focus on rather than rely on the USA to be the wealth provider for the world. They have and will always have the two main elements for success geographical mass and big population. Other counties need to develop their populations and grow them train them and I think the U.K. needs to make more stuff manufacturing is important and there are so many inventive creative people in the U.K. who know about manufacturing. Financial services are big but giving jobs to local people creating upwards mobility that’s just not happened. I think we lost too much of the manufacturing base and the USA did not.
Great stuff…. Aamd good points well made Rory. Alistair didn’t really contribute much in this one apart from folding at the knees in front of the living-inside-my-bubble American diplomate.
Rory was great but Alastair was magnificent!
Rubin comes across as omnipotent and needs to learn to accept criticism.
Rory is spot on. Not to discredit anything Mr. Rubin has achieved in his diplomatic and political career in any way, for he comes across as a very capable and authoritative person, but it is incredibly naive to assume that Big Tech wants to be regulated or is willing to self regulate.
I doubt Mr. Rubin will read this, but if he does, I hope he'll revisit his knee jerk reaction and dives into the matter much deeper before doing so. If only to show, that the US government is taking it with far less complacency than he (I assume unwillingly) made it appear.
Might it be an idea to ask Yuval Noah Harrari again to contemplate on the subject? Or possibly someone who's retired from the intelligence community and who can elaborate on how disruptive social media, algorithms, AI, the (unintended) connections between big tech, the advertisement industry, conspiracy thinkers and foreign powers have become in this field?
Unfortunately self-reflection or contrition aren’t highly coveted skills in American culture. Especially among ‘successful’ people
@@danielhoskins4690 I'd say that isn't typical of Americans. It goes for most people who are successful, or rather, who are seen as successful.
I know a few of specimen here in the Netherlands as well. A certain level of narcissism seems to be a general feature of individuals in higher office in politics, entertainment and management.
I've got to say, that for many of the (former) military Americans I encountered that certainly is not the case. Possibly because in general soldiers know what it means to serve a purpose, rather than one's own personal glory?
Whther mr. Rubin falls in the category, I would not decide on this one sample. But his reaction did indeed not indicate an abundance of self reflection or open mindedness. On the other hand, the term 'naive' just may have hit a sensitive nerve. Who knows?
@@danielhoskins4690 And those that view themselves as successful. I had a confrontation with one of those today. 🙄
in 2003 one million people protested against the Iraq war in London. A staggering 3 million protested in Rome and around the world the figure was roughly 10+ million. Those protests saved precisely zero lives and did not change 'foreign policy' one iota. The same is true today. Recent protests have merely expedited the genocide.
James Rubin's attitude is the embodiment of casual disregard for human life when we know full well that America could end the genocide with a phone call, not that messers Campbell and Stewart dared to mention that. Campbell in this interview fully represents the spineless bought and paid for sycophancy this country's political class have descended into. You each deserve a pat on the heads for this interview. Good little boys.
You are spot on. Rubin is still a condescending Berkeley Hunt, without a trace of humility.
Robust debate, kings
very robust when he said "america has never been an imperial nation don't look up manifest destiny :)"
i'm happy rory grilled him @@Jomchen
Not sure about the chap's assertion that all fine in the AI world with Musk going at Open AI.
Some people are easily impressed by someone interrupting loudly.
Hey Jamie, Rory didn't vote (as in abstain or didn't show up) for Military action in Syria. Leading to the government being defeated in wanting to take Military action Obama cites this a major reason for not taking action. He needs to get off his high horse.
Unfortunately how Rory describes the US is also how people describe the UK.
But Rory accepts that the UK is described in that way. This yank does not.
Jeez Rory is about the least diplomatic I've ever seen him here, unusually combative.
I love how he completely misses the point where all empires fall apart and its not just British cynicism, god i love watching Americans think they can keep their empire running whilst its collapsing around them faster than the amazons ecosystems
Big business clamouring for regulation! Is it April Fools already?
Mr Ego did not like those opinions. If Rory was a social media platform, he’d ’need regulation’!! 😅 lol
A strange place to finish the interview. Did it kick off and become unsuitable for public consumption?
It's a cut from a longer version released earlier.
Great interview - got to say Rory’s elitist pinky ring puts me right off him though. Saw a lot of that when I was an undergraduate at Cambridge
Really
@@eb2944 😂 100%
@@rjdavies1982 I am aware of the history of them but why would you judge someone based on a ring
@@rjdavies1982 I judge people on their words and action…
Rory got taken to school
presidential alert: the girls are fighting!!!
The AI illiteracy continues. Where is the discussion on the positive acceleration and how AI can improve everyone's lives.
The lack of humility in policy makers is troubling. Watermarking techniques implemented by a few large players in the commercial AI space will do nothing to counter offline privately-hosted generative AI models or AI providers in unregulated countries / government-led disinformation campaigns. Rubin's bravado amounts to burying his head in the sand.
Rory Stewart is spot on. If we were to be truthful, we have to admit that we are loosing respect throughout the world.
So Blair and his media henchman Alastair are even more to blame for the ‘Regime change’ agenda, and the resultant countless deaths and chaos, than we thought! Meanwhile Alastair smiles his way through it all.
If HE is a typical example of n American diplomat, I am not surprised at the decline of US influence. He said that he did not see the two Arabs mentioned as thinking of the US as a declining power, which just goes to show that the Arabs are far better at this diplomatic game than he is.
Joe Biden is on my wish list for this program, but hopefully not for five years or so.
Classic example of a guy who that nks his position provides expertise abd diserves respect... Sadly once he mentions AI and social media the shallowness of his intellect is revealed
Being articulate doesn’t make you right.
I am not sure Rory is correct here, I dont think in a country like Afghanistan you can have a light footprint..you are either in or out...
‘Means that you are operating at a facile level’ (Rubin) finally someone calls out Stewart for the pompous, arrogant and self-aggrandising ‘expert’ that he claims to be. The juxtaposition of Campbell/ Rubin with Stewart is striking. The use of Stewart is really just as a straw man to argue with.
God, James gets very easily offended
Entertainment … Alistair is enjoying it!!