Minimum Energy to Harvest Game -- The Real Gunsmith
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 24 มี.ค. 2018
- Randy talks about necessary energy to ethically harvest game including, ballistic coefficient, bullet construction, shot placement and distance of the shot especially on larger game such as elk. Recently more importance is given to the BC of the bullet instead of its construction and ability to perform properly at the distance you intend to shoot at. You don't hear very many people talking about energy anymore, one of the most important factors with proper bullet performance. Support us on Patreon! / therealgunsmith
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Thanks for the overwhelming response to this video, as well as our other videos on The Real Gunsmith Channel! We appreciate your comments and questions. Due to the volume of the comments and questions, some which would take some time to answer, we just don’t have the time to respond to them all. However many of the questions will be answered in future videos. Our first priority is to our paying clients. Writing out long answers would take time away from that, and I won’t put them “on hold” to post long answers here. If you have questions about getting gun work done or a custom rifle built, contact us at randyselby@randyscustomrifles.com. I have a wide range of prices for custom rifles so even the “average Joe or Josephine” can get into a custom package, just as accurate as the higher end rifles. For our detractors, we appreciate your difference of opinion, too, but I stand by my decades of experience. To all of you, thanks again for your overwhelming support. Stay tuned! God bless you all. Randy and Cathy
I’ve shot quite a few animals with the Barnes and agree with pass through vs a bullet that doesn’t hold together. The exit hole is very important for an animal to bleed out quickly.
Federal Edge TLR is a new bullet on the market that keeps a solid copper base and a lead tip for high BC. The solid copper base should ensure 2 holes in game. I’m working on loads and they are shooting very precise so far.
They are very good game bullets. Thanks for taking the time to share. Good shooting!
SIGHTED in a friends 25.06 at 100 yards . stuck a a4 piece of paper with up side down T on to side of old washing machine .HE ONLY HAD FACTORY 75 grn ballistic tip bullets .fired first shot ,paper was ripped to shreds , that projectile exploded when it hit the steel absolutely useless,only good for shooting very small game . saw a wild pig hit with a .270 ,120 grn ballistic tip . looked like pig was shot with No2 from a shot gun at 10 yards .never hit ribs on other side..
The Real Gunsmith not a lot of people understand that and your very correct . Do you have a recommendation of bullets I’m shooting a 7mm-08 in a savage model 111 in a 24 inch barrel
Thanks
Watched this again. Gotta tell you that a guy I know killed a 204” mule buck at 740 yds. with a 6.5 PRC. HORNADY
ELD XYZ thing.
That bullet blew into pieces. That the guy got home with the deer is remarkable. A couple inches to the left and that buck takes it in the shoulder and lived to die a dreadful death.
Randy Selby is the most important rifleman since Jack O’Conner and Elmer Keith. He’s smartest mind since Otto Ackley.
People, listen to the man.
I wish I had a Grandpa like him. The amount of knowledge a young shooter could soak up is just immense.
Thank you sir! Finally someone with common sense, ethics and experience that’s not afraid to speak the truth about HUNTING and ETHICALLY taking game. Too many target shooters on here. Game deserves more respect than paper and steel targets.
Well said,l totally agree,I hate seeing a wounded animal do to ignorance
Thats exactly correct. I hunt with a .270 win , 150g Nosler (I like the 130g hotcore also). GET CLOSE, PLACE THE DAMN BULLET IN THE RIGHT SPOT. Too many people get obsessed with numbers ...which count more with target shooting . Killing an animal humanely is a different matter.
Absolutely. Hunting ethics should be a required course before getting a license. Just because you can, doesn’t mean you should. I don’t care what caliber you use, you shouldn’t be shooting any big game animal from 1000 yards.
I couldn't have said it better
The Lyman 47th reloading manual has what they call the Optimum Game Weight which advises the amount of energy you should have in order to ethically harvest most game animals. It is a good base to start from for less experienced hunters.
I started hunting in 1956 taking a whitetail with a 22 then graduated to a 30-30 model 94. 1985 bought a savage 99 in 300 savage that had a Williams peep, wow what a powerhouse!! Can’t remember any shots over 80 yards and never lost one deer, black bear or elk. N ID and NE WA. Remington core-lock , ethical kill without blowing up the carcass.
great listening to your words Randy. I agree with all and would add that it is respect for the game we hunt that we do all possible to ensure a quick dispatch. Mate I appreciate you taking the time to make these videos. a fan from Oz
I feel the same way when I hear people try to tell us we need a certain level of energy to kill game . Ft/lbs of energy is just a number. Deer moose and elk don't die from ft/lbs of energy they die from a hole in their lungs or other organs that cause a disruption in blood circulation and respiration. Handguns and arrows and buckshot still kill game every year without the prescribed 1000 ft/lbs of energy. You need a bullet constructed well enough to make it into a deers vitals at the range you are shooting and you need to be able to put the shot there at that range. I know this might be over simplifying the matter but that is really all the science there is too it. You can shoot a deer with a high velocity round that has over 1000 ft'lbs of energy but if the bullet shatters into tiny fragments on impact and doesn't penetrate deep enough with enough mass to do some damage the energy is useless. You would be better off with a Colt 45 handgun at short range that will punch a 1/2 inch hole right through a deer. Use a bullet that will penetrate deep enough and stay together and work on your shooting skills to put a shot where it needs to be at whatever range you are shooting at. If you can't hit a deer or elk in the boiler room at 500 yards then DON'T TAKE THE SHOT ! More energy wont help if you can't put a shot where it needs to be or your bullet fragments and doesn't penetrate.
I agree, Shot placement is King, Shot penetration is Queen and everything is angels dancing on the head of a pin. We need quick clean and decisive shots that kill as quickly and cleanly as possible. As much energy as possible. I get frustrated when a game animal is more than 600 yards away. To be honest I dunno when I shot game more than 250 yards away last. Long distance I might hit it, I might scare it, I might wound it...so I don't shoot. I just think "See you next time"
I think/hope not everyone that brags at shooting long distances with too small a calibre are doing much more than telling tall stories. Sadly some new shooters could be tricked into buying the wrong rifle and expect waaaay too much. Appreciate your video views.
Yep....200 yards or so is about my limit.... I always hated the idea of leaving a wounded beast in the field....
@@KathrynLiz1 thank goodness, a person with ethics who recognizes and respects sensible, personal limits. Good for you!! 👍👍👍
Dear Mr Mrs Selby it’s been too long and I have missed you all thank you for your videos. Hope to get out to Wyoming again and would love to just shake your hands. Please stay safe and I pray that you stay healthy. I know that you are better off out there than the east coast I miss my time in Wyoming and hope to return stay safe please do more video.
The REAL Gunsmith: Just found your channel today. We think along the same lines. I started to handload when Barnes came out with their X-bullet. Went thru all the different versions up till today. I have a Win 70, Classic Stainless BOSS in .338 Win Mag I bought when I got stationed up at Eielson AFB, AK in 1994. I handloaded the 250gr. Speer Grand Slam and Nosler Partitions for all my hunting, moose, griz, whatever (although my first Black Bear I shot with handloaded 12 ga smooth foster slugs in a AA hull with a trap wad, was accurate to 150 yards with the Mossberg 835 rifled slug barrrel with integrated scope mount) Cloverleaf groups at 300 yards all day long with the .338.. That .338 would not shoot anything bad. When I finished my four year tour in AK I went to Mountain Home AFB, Idaho in '98 and that is where I retired and still live in town. I started handloading the Barnes 185gr X-bullet for all my hunting down here except for .243 for Antelope, Lion (calling them in!)and the occasional yote and deer. I used that load for all my deer hunting on our property in SD as it was accurate and having a 1.5-6X32 Burris scope it was perfect for walking draws and canyons and jump shooting mulies and WT and the occasional 200-300 yard spot and stalk. People told me I was overgunned with that .338 but with that 185gr Barnes XBT It was like shooting a 300 Win Mag with a 180gr bullet. Really like your down to earth no bones about it style of videos. Thanks for your experience. I'll turn 58 in a couple months and still love to get out and hunt. Actually going tomorrow afternoon for some "short range wpns only" deer hunting down on the Snake river. Either sex so unless old mossy horns shows himself broadside at fifty yards I'll try to take a dry doe (we have both mulies and WT down on the Snake.
Excellent video! Now only if the hunters would actually use this bullet knowledge you're providing.
The biggest problem for hunters is ammunition manufacturers not loading proper hunting bullets for taking big game into cartridges such as the 6.5 Creedmoor. The 6.5 Creedmoor has a maximum 300 yard deer hunting range at best, but still depends on which bullet is used.
I personally choose Nosler's Partition bullets for hunting big game for several decades. My elk cartridge is the 338-06 A-Square cartridge loaded with Nosler's 210 grain Partition bullets.
I cringe on the thought of hunters selecting and using Nosler's Ballistic Tip and Hornady's SST bullets for big game.
Unfortunately Hornady has discontinued some of their Interlock bullets for the thin jacket SST lineup.
Although Nosler's 120 grain Ballistic Tip out of my Thompson Center Encore 15 inch 7mm-08 Remington pistol barrel will efficiently kill deer. The 120 grain bullet has a better construction than the 140 grain offering.
Ethically taking big game comes down to bullet construction at adequate range, so there's enough energy for the job.
God bless you Mr. Randy, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom. My family greatly appreciates all the information you give us. Thank you good sir!
Thank you so very much I appreciate your professional opinion it seems to be a subject that others ignore, in closing I hunted deer with a 308 with my friends for five years needless to say we were not professionals but I still dropped A five pointer at 200 yards with one shot.
I love these videos. As a member of the younger generation I suppose I am one of a few that actually pays attention to the terminal ballistics of so called hunting bullets. Whether it’s my .44 magnum revolver or my .30 cal magnums or what my hunting companions use. Nosler has never let me down. People get too hung up on the “ballistic tip” crap. I’ve personally seen two elk shot under 300yds with Hornady ELDX and the bullets turned into shrapnel without a pass through (no heavy bone hits either). Both elk were recovered, eventually. A .300 Win mag should do better than that. That’s what putting too much emphasis on BC gets you. Great on paper though ha ha.
Sir, your videos are so informative and helpful and I appreciate the information. You have caused me to reconsider my caliber selection, bullet choice, and ethical consideration for hunting shots. Thank you again.
I agree keep the videos coming sir. enjoy all your content
It’s always nice to see what you thought were good to great bullets actually are just that! I would rave about the Nosler Partion in 180 gr 300 win mag. Just by doing CSI work on things we hunt out West. Big hogs, tough blacktail deer, big Mulies, and elk. A 95-105 pound blacktail buck shot at 200 yards through both shoulders would run anywhere from 20-75 yards! My Bullet choices:
.243- 100 grain grand slam
.277- 140 grain accubond
.308- 3 choices:
.300 win mag- 1. 180 Barnes TSX- no tip
2. 180 Nosler Partion
3. 180 Nosler Accubond
New 28 Nosler Rifle still working up a load. I need to have a solid copper Bullet as a backup, but I am going to start with the Long Range Accubond. I will take all these wonderful videos I watch several times each, for my situation. Like others have said, there’s no more of these guys left to teach our generation (I’m mid 40’s). They don’t need some type of algorithm or whatever, they do the shit, they eat, sleep, dream, about rifles. PRECISION, it’s all gone, just volume. I would love to make a rifle someday, but With today’s world, it’s not very probably, possible, just not probably. I will not live confined to a communist/Marxist way of life. The wolves video is spot on, have them kill all our game so we can’t eat and claim it’s for the environment! Look at Idaho, Wyoming, Montana, all eaten up. The 3 S’s and call it good. Thank you Randy!
Great Video Sir, and yes love the Nosler Partitions in my 300 wim mag and my 7mm-08 no tracking required 👍
I'm getting hot just thinking about the heat being cranked out by that el primo wood burning furnace, watching the steam rise out from the pot and that fan circulate the heat. Phew! I grew up around a similar furnace insert. It was so efficient, I remember how it would just about sweat us out - but at least we were warm.
I agree completely! 100%! I settled on the 180 grain Swift Sirocco out of my custom 300 win mag about 20 or so years ago. I've killed several elk here in Colorado over that time out to 450 yards and not a one went more than 60 yards. I have recovered about 70% of those bullets on the off side under the hide. Great expansion and weight retention. The Swift A Frame in my opinion is a Nosler Partition on steroids! Heavier jacket and bonded! The ELDX and Berger bullets are piss poor hunting bullets! I had a friend tell me that he hit a large bull at 860 yards with a 300 grain Berger "hunting" bullet out of a 338 Lapua. They never recovered the bull. He sold the rifle!
Going on my first hunt in about 14 years. Prior I was just a young kid with an old 1903 30-06 with Remington core lock ammo. .32 win special lever gun with the same ammo in ranges out to 200 max
Now in far west Texas as an adult I have been researching my tail off for the right combo. Settled on 308 and was striving for 800 max, then backed off to 600 after finding the perfect optic for me.
I was settled on that game king but your experience reaches out to more than just someone with a conflicting opinion. Some of us listen and will have experiences of our own based off of yours.
As much as shot placement matters you still need a round that will perform on your game and not just punch paper or ring steel with a good group. I will look into what you recommended. Off the top of my head I'm thinking hornady and 600 max yards.
With all this country 1000 yard shots can be found as commonplace and an achievement to one day strive for but until then not me. I haven't hunted in many years and not about to get sloppy as an excuse.
Thank you sir
yes, ethics first always...God bless...doug
Great video. And valuable information. More hunters. More people in general need to learn more about what their end goal is when it comes shooting. Love you channel. Keep producing great videos and hopefully we all can become better hunters and shooters learning from you and the likes.
yesterday, I had a tailwind at a 30 degree angle from left to right at 300 meters 0r 328 yards shooting my 7mm magnum and 25-06, for which I had sighted in the day before with absolutely no wind at all.
I figured that tailwind would move the bullet impact right so I held on the 9 o'clock and touched it off with the wind at 12 mph. with my 7mm magnum, and it hit smak dab in the middle of the steel 6 in. Painted white target, for a wind blown 139 grain Hornady interlock bullet! 3 inches of windage factored in correctly.
This is the practice that helps me to keep an edge while hunting. The 2506 and 7mm
Are indistinguishable at 300 meters with the same damn amount of a 10-12 mph 30 degree crosswind. Using the 117 Hornady interlock bullets at 3004 fps.
Your videos are great! Very informative and a lot of experience / knowledge. I agree with everything.
The Eld-x bullet is not good for Elk, but I use it for Whitetail and the deer drop where they stand. Shooting a 25-06 with 110gr hitting them in the heart. Love your videos, and are inspiring me to become a gunsmith on the aide
Deer do not require a lot of energy. If anything too much energy at close range results in unreliable penetration because the round explodes or you blow a shoulder off and destroy otherwise good meat.
I have bin big game hunting for 50 years now. The longest shot I ever took was 412 yds. My personal limit is about 400 yds. I have met people at the range that claim 600 - 1000 yard kills yet they can’t seem to hold 1 minute at the 100 yard range. I pray that it is all talk and that they are not trying to hit animals with their 6.5 at long distance.
Love Barnes bullets. Very informative video. No BS and you gotta love that.
Really nice listening to this gentleman
Although I know longer shoot the experience I took away with me was simple hunting is all about getting really close watching this animal breath then respecting the fact it’s life is at that point In Your Hands
I’ve met plenty of hunter who do not respect what they are doing
My favourite Calibre was a 6.5 Swedish with a 160 gr pencil bullet
6.5 x 55 Swe. perfect round - a universal round. Shoot almost anything with it as the SD of the heavy rounds gives phenomenal penetration.
Randy love the vids and info! Please keep them coming.
Yes sir I agree with Barnes and Nosler Partitions do amazing on game
W Snapper so does Remington Cor Lok
Well, I agree with the Nosler, but no more Barnes! I've shoot a lot of big game with a .300 win with them but id say 90% ran, just a little ways and always a pass through shot 1 2 and 3 hundred + - yrds! No more. But great comment. Thanks for listening! Feed me why if you can! Thanks
Kenny Coye I used Barnes for a couple seasons and switched back to Accubonds and partitions. I only shoot factory loads and Barnes quality control started lacking. I had bullets that weren’t crimped properly and would fall out of the casings. About 8-10 rounds per box.
Just about any bonded soft point will do but the accubond or similar soft points with a high BC bullet and polymer tip is ideal.
@kennycoye3907 with the Barnes bullets you HAVE to take into consideration the fact that copper is harder than lead and therefore requires more energy and more velocity to expand reliably. Penetration is never the issue but expansion often is. A 168grain Barnes is as long as a 180 grain lead core Bullet. Therefore it takes up more case capacity because it seats deeper so you have to compensate by using a lighter bullet and it must be loaded hot. I prefer lead bonded bullets for this reason.
That is fine about elk but where I am we have taken whitetail with 223 and 75 gr bthp.. distance traveled after shot less than 25 yards for all. Shot placement is critical. Heart and lungs liquified. Distances shot from 75 to 200 yards. All deer recovered. Enjoy your videos and learning your knowledge.
55gr vmax here never lost a deer been using 223 for 20+years.
Yes the .223 and AR 15 is like the new 30-30 because it is so popular today and with proper game hunting bullet it will be deadly at moderate range.
I built a 308 Norma Mag. on a P17 Remington base with a full length military barrel as the P 17 came with. I shot 180 gr. Norma Nosler Partition. I only found two of my spent bullets they weighted in some were around 125 to 128 Gr. One was a head on shot into a black bear shot between the eyes about 100 yards the spent bullet came out the left rear hind quarter and was caught in the hair. The second spent bullet was a chest shot into a bull moose about 250 yards same results instance one shot kill with the spent bullet just under the skin high in the left hind quarter.
I have the greatest respect for what you are saying and fully agree with you.
Best Regards
Fred Thompson
I was completely out of components a few years ago for my 260 Remington. I picked up some federal premium with 140 sierra gamekings, which were the only factory loads in town that weren't target bullets. I took a large bull caribou at 150 yards, and being aware of this bullet's construction I waited for a perfect shot and disintegrated his heart. There was no exit, and fragments were on the other side of the inside of the rib cage. I was on another hunt with a friend, and he put a marginal shot on a yearling caribou (they are the size of a whitetail at that age). I anchored it with a shoulder shot, but at 250 yards the gameking didn't make it through the shoulder, it fell apart and only a tiny bit of copper jacket made it to the ribs. After that I ordered 500 barnes TSX projectiles for my 260 and the same for my 35 Whelen. If you can't get within 350 yards of a critter, you are a lousy hunter. One exception being pronghorns. Those binocular eyes aren't even fair.
Great video! It's nice to see someone know what he's talking about. Heavy is better. More impact energy on target even at slower velocities in some cases compared to other cartridges.
I just shot an Elk this weekend with a 7MM Rem. Mag shooting 162gr ELD-X bullets. The shot was approximately 120 yards. The bullet passed through the Elk killing her within 30 seconds. I'd have to disagree with you on your point that the ELD-X is not a good killer of Elk. I very much like your videos. Thank you for your knowledge and thoughts. Much appreciated.
That's on a female elk at 120 yards too though. Not a big bull at 500. Even something like a 223 or 3030 with a halfway decent bullet would enough penetration to make it into the vitals of most female elk at 120 yards because they still have plenty of punch and the target is a little bit smaller though it's still not a good idea . He is talking about optimum. What is best. Especially for longer ranges. What you can get away with with a slightly smaller game animal work shorter ranges is not always the same as what you can do at longer range
I currently run 143 ELDX 6.5 mm and 162 ELDX 7mms. Not impressed with either although I have a sample of four. 6.5 Creedmoor and 280 AI. They have killed Whitetail well enough but they seem to blow to hell fairly easily. I’ll use them up on deer and targets but wouldn’t use them on anything bigger. And, I don’t use the Creedmoor for anything more than deer and targets. It’s a great Whitetail rifle in a light package that is super accurate. Much like a modern day version of the 250-3000 Savage. But I see it for what it is. A well built target, vermin, and deer rifle. Nothing more and anyone who thinks that it is, is living a fairytale.
I have also killed a bull elk at over 700 yards with my Hornady ELDx. Worked great. Shot it twice with pass through and gold ball sized exits. I will keep using them. Killed mule deer and antelope also.
Let us know what you think about it at 400 yards with galf the energy?
These bullets work as long as you don’t hit bone on a mature bull elk or trying to defend yourself against a mountain grizzly bear. Why screw around, just use a well constructed hunting bullet and be done with it.
He’s absolutely right about the effective design of bullets. I have heard and come to know what younger hunters and shooters think. There not correct most of the time, and I talk with them about what is said and what is reality. The most effective design for a hunting bullet, in my opinion, is the traditional A frame also known as a partition bullet. My father explained this and I observed the effectiveness of that design in the late 1970’s. You have to make a clean kill. I was taught it is a sin not to. That’s why you have to be sure you can put the bullet into the vitals at a given distance. If not, don’t shoot. My fathers youngest brother spent many years working and hunting in 1960’s Wyoming, Montana, Idaho, Washington, Oregon and home in California. He spent many years developing and perfecting extremely long range hunting. He instructed me on this kind of shooting, and I did the development of his last Wildcat design. Even with those heavy rifles and my experience, it would have to be ideal conditions to go past 800 or 900 yards. You can come into those conditions, but the vast majority of the time you won’t.
aaron shitmaster.......you didn't pay attention & you didn't learn a thing......one of those that wrecks it for hunters !
love your videos up here in British Columbia ...gods hunting country!!
lol
knowing when to shoot....bullets placement!!!
Wished more hunters had this mind set.
Thanks, Randy. I shoot my game, wild boars, from between 15 and 180 yards. Went up last weekend and got one at 170 yards. I use the .338 Browning BAR. It drops them. You don't need a fancy plastic tipped bullet. I use the Barnes solid copper bullet.
LOL. I wish I was a sure about. Y opinions as you are. Hornady Interlocks and Remington Corlokt have taken a lot of game in my lifetime. I agree with your energy point, however, my Creedmoor it's 129 grain Interlocks works pretty well, please read it kills game humanely, out to 400 yards. 250-300 is the limit of my ability.
Regarding Burger bullets your absolutely right thanks for reminder I have tremendous amount of respect for you Sir... just got my 300 Norma Mag and my warbird is shoots wonderfully...
Always love watching videos from people who know the subject matter and have lived it. Keep it up. I would have to agree %100 percent with everything here minus the Barnes bullets. I tried them due to all the hype on them, and Ive gotten outstanding accuracy with them, but factory loads in my .300 win pencil holed one elk and two deer between 200-400 yards. All animals expired but not fast enough or close enough to where I shot them. I have since gone back to the accubond with nice consistent results from 50 all the way to 750 yards on deer, elk and moose.
What Barnes Bullet did you use in your 300 Win Mag?
Your entire series of video's should be required viewing at hunters safety classes for new/young hunters. I've been watching them all an as someone who's grown up hunting western big game (grew up in Cheyenne) and shot competitively for 30 years+ and agree with 99% of what you're saying. Very easy to watch and I KNOW it's been learned through experience not just reading magazines and ballistics tables. I've been using the Nosler Partition for everything from Antelope to Moose. Always had very good results in both wounding and retained weight. I shoot Sierra's in my .308 caliber target rifles and Hornady's in my .223 for long range (600yd) matches in high power matches.
So glad I found this channel!
starting to ruff some feathers I see from some on here maybe just listen and let his experience tell us something
LOL we can't make everyone happy, nor will we ever try to. Thanks for your support and comments. Good shooting and God bless!
If Mr. Selby don't like Remington, I don't either.i listen to him but I won't throw my Remingtons away but I will refine my tastes, I put my faith on his wisdom I am glad to learn from him.
I would like to start out by saying I love your videos. I agree with you on bullet construction being a critical aspect of bullet selection for hunting. I use federal fusion bullets in most of my hunting loads in my magnum calibers but I do use a serria TGK in my 308. Now I only use this load for whitetail deer. My reasoning for this is that 1 this is what shoots best in that particular rifle 2 the deer In my area are not particularly large 3 I usually only take head or neck shots. I think the point you made about bullets selection is exactly why the 6.5 creedmore got such a bad reputation as a deer butcher. When it first came out all the ammunition for it was target rounds. Im a range officer at a local shooting range and I remember everyone was coming in with the new cartridge and getting sub moa groups then coming in later complaining that they missed / lost a deer. First thing I would ask is what bullet were you using? Every time the answer was a match / target bullet of some type. Just because shoots well doesn’t mean it is right for the job
I didn’t know much about this topic but yea bullet selection is HUGE when taking game
As far as I know, everything is important to look at. The weight, the bc and different speeds, the sd, and the realistic muzzle speeds you can achieve with the cartridge. All of these things are important to give you your energy at Target.
As far as match bullets go. They're usually made too hard for hunting. They're not made to expand at all. They will go all the way threw but they won't give an ethical kill. Due to lack of proper wound channel.
One thing you said that was pretty interesting to me was the all copper bullet from barns. I'm sure it expands very well and retains it's weight pretty good, but all copper bullets are usually quite a bit lighter for their size. To me a heavier bullet made for expansion would give you a better energy+wound channel for a quick more ethical kill?
One thing we can all agree one is that everyone needs to know their equipment and respect the animal they're taking more than enough to make sure it's going to go down with as little suffering as possible.
I agree with you completely. Personally, I shoot 200 gr Accubonds in my 300 win mag
I thought once about deer hunting with my 22-250 because I was hunting at a place where I could get some very long shots at them after looking at the energy left in the little 55 grain at 500 yards on the ballistic charts I stuck to my old 30-06 with 150 gr bullets and the 30-06 will shoot 500 yrds and will work if I can do my part.you are right and I don't care to leave wounded deer out in the field.and the farthest I have ever taken a whitetail was just a tad over 400 yards and he ran when i hit him across the hill when I got over to where he was he was down but not dead and the bullet had went in behind the front shoulder and exited out the front of the chest and it was a good hit and did alot of damage it was a Hornady 150 grain spire point i still had to neck shoot the deer again to put him down.I also like the serria 150 grain boat tail game king but I feel the Hornady does a better job for me .thanks for the video I really enjoy listening to you.
Im with you 100% This year for deer I used the 26 Nosler. Usually im shooting a 140gr Barnes XLC bullets in my 6.5mm but they dont make that weight or bullet any longer. For weight I talked myself into trying the 143-elx instead of the Barnes 127gr. Second day i saw a respectable 3pt at 325yrds. I took the shot and hit it 3rd rib from the back. The bullet barely made into the ribs before blowing up like a granade. What was left of the bullet were slivers at best. I know if i would have hit that little buck in the shoulder bone it would have blown up and never made the vitals. I love the 6.5 and hope Barnes will again come out with a heavy long bullet for high sectional densities...
Thank you Randy.
Thanks. We really like your "handle". As long as it's nitrate and nitrite free, yummy! From Cathy.
Appreciate Randy- Thanks.
Wow good stuff sir. Thank you
I really appreciate your comment there at the end about the difference between deer and elk. I have taken over a hundred deer with 308 168gr win ballistic silver tip, but I would never take that bullet elk hunting.
@Frank Tank my 350yd plus and inside 50yd shots never came out. And this is on whitetail. That bullet is absolute death on them, however I'm not sure it would make it through a rib on an elk.
I just subscribed to your channel and will be watching more as I humbly enjoy learning from the old-timers more than arguing with the young-timers (I'm only 36, but have "grown up" around the older generations and mentors in their 60's and 70's who are vets with great stories and knowledge). My first elk was taken in 2010 in the Grey's River of Wyoming using my new Winchester Model 70 in .270 Win, topped with a Leupold VX-ii 3-9x40, duplex reticle. The girl I was dating at the time grew up hunting with her family and her father is an expert hunter. He hand-loaded some 130g Nosler Ballistic Tip rounds for us. We set up the trail early in the dark that morning and at sun up I spotted a group of elk up a draw first so was given the choice to take one or pass. Her and I both lied down prone, feet still in the creek we just crossed, piled a few rocks for a rest and took aim. He dad was hovering above me telling me he was "515 yards! Aim 3' above his back! Hurry!" It was one of the most stressful situations I have been in, but I did as I was told. Her and I both were carrying tags, so on the count of 3, we both let off the first shots and jacked another in. She missed her 2nd jack of a round, so I took another shot. Then we both shot once again. 5 shots taken total and we hit that elk 3 times. I believe it was one of the first shots that hit that elk in the stomach with a pass-thru and a spray trail of blood left behind where he was standing at the time. Ultimately, we hike up there to him about 300-400' in elevation (quite steep for a prone shot) and found him bed down only 20 yards to the left with a shattered hind end that crippled him from going anywhere. I put him out of his misery and had a successful hunt. I learned a lot on that hunt and now that I've started reloading myself as of last winter and starting to study things closely, I know that after seeing that Ballistic Tip shatter bone at that distance, yet damaging a lot of backstrap and hind quarter meat, I know it's not the right bullet selection for that type of hunt or situation. Now I reload myself and use the 140g Nosler Accubond in my .270 Win and the 160g Accubond in my new Tikka T3x Superlite 7mm Rem Mag. I don't take it lightly when my hunting partners or myself wound animals. And I will always HUNT in closer if I don't feel confident with the shot I'm presented with. I like to shoot, but I like to hunt even better. Since then I've been successful every year with either an elk or deer, shooting with different types of weapons like the Savage 212 slug gun using a 3" Federal Premium Trophy Copper 300g sabot (last year's 315" bull at 106 yards) or this year's small 4x5 bull elk with a 4" S&W .357 Mag shooting the 180g Buffalo Bore hard cast. What a rush! But I never take it for granted because hunting is a great challenge for everybody and is a privilege, not a right. Animals and the mountains demand respect and that's what we as responsible hunters should do. God Bless, Randy.
Your experience speaks volumes :D
Great advice. Great video!
Well said and I agree with your facts. I've been hunting all my life and reload everything I hunt with. I match the bullet to the game I'm hunting, and have passed on shots that I wasn't sure would create a clean kill. The animals we hunt have given us many years of
pleasure just being out in Gods creation, people fail to realize the animals deserve are best
as they bleed and feel pain. If I do my part with the right equipment and marksmanship
all goes well and the animals deserve nothing less. We will not tolerate a person who is out there just to kill or the person who is a poor shot. We are very picky with who we allow to hunt, and as I said the game deserve nothing less.
Legendary advice and information right here,
Big fan of Partitions. They worked up close, they work down range, they worked for our fathers, and they work for me.
What I focus on is three things, bullet diameter appropriate for game being hunted, sectional density and bullet construction appropriate for game being hunted, and keeping shots within the bullets expansion velocity threshold.
I think all this BC talk is highly overplayed. You have some people saying that cartridges like the 6.5 Creedmoor and 6.5 PRC make classics like the 270 obsolete. I’ve even heard somebody say that a 143 gr ELD from a 6.5 Creedmoor is a better choice for Elk than a 300 Win Mag with a Barnes 180 gr TSX.
I remember when I lived in Colorado a younger hunter asked me what bullet I recommend for Elk. I told him that I’m a big fan of the Nosler Partition. He then tried to tell me that the Partition has a low BC and that a Hornady SST or ELD is a better bullet. Because they will retain energy better. I told him it doesn’t matter if your bullet comes to pieces. The Partition has enough velocity out of something like a 270 , 30-06, 7mm and 300 mags to expand as far as anybody has any business shooting at game animals.
Barnes manufactures the whole cartridge now for some calibers will be using them for Elk in either of my rifles
This man dropping pure knowledge
Hornady for steel and Nosler or Barnes for hunting. People get so caught up with having one thing do everything.
Hornady does make a bonded bullets 165grain btsp as example
As an older gentleman, I’m 71, told me “the cheapest yet most IMPORTANT part of any hunt is the bullet you send down range, make it a Barnes”. I can’t disagree at all! I have taken a lot of game with them and have yet to recover one, I got a couple of petals once on a deer that exited the off side ham. Not my choice of shots but was early light and I thought he was broadside.
I agree BC matters little for most game hunted are taken at 400 yards or less by most hunters, seems odd 50,40,30 years ago bullets were used to take game all over the world as long as they matched the bullet to game harvested.
Some of the big game hunters of Africa used the 6.5 Swedish to successfully hunt big game including elephant in former times.The sectional density IS a significant factor.
LOTS OF Elephants were shot with .303 but they had 10 round mags & they got real close ..real men
WDM Bell used a 7X57 Mauser and killed over 1000 elephants using 175 gr FMJ. He was a brave man, but he knew what he was doing, just as the hunters now long gone, they got close , picked the target/ game and shot well. Today they shoot at long distance, no hunt but shoot.
I love listening to this gentlemens wealth of knowledge!. Irreplaceable information!!! With that said we as sportsman and hunters can't get hung up on preaching ethics and morals or worse turn them into laws. The way I chose to hunt and with what equipment is no ones business but mine and yours as individuals whether you like that or not. The freedom of choice is ours. The way these anti's, and the money grabbers, are able to take money from our tax funds, such as Pittman Roberts, is because we drive these wedges between each other. Therefore we stay divided and fail to stay the course on the big picture of the hunting and shooting we enjoy. Impossible to be divided and hope to resist the anti's, their lobbyists, and the politicians. The big picture is to protect that freedom and right of to choose how we hunt. So with what is being said then all bow hunters are the most unethical of us all and that is just not correct. There are more big game records in the book taken with stick and string than are with firearms. I would guess, as well, more game are wounded and or lost to archery hunting. That doesn't mean bow hunting should be outlawed, but it will if we continue the in fighting. I am not saying what you have said isn't true. I just caution we be careful what we ask for if bullet X is deemed unethical then while we are at it lets ban bow hunting too! Its not even a fast poorly made bullet, its a slow arrow with rudimentary blades on it. That's just the path the politicians and lobbyist take. Givem an inch and they take ten yards. Food for thought.....Again love these videos and keep them coming!
Amen brother! At reasonable hunting distances, bullet placement and remaining energy are all that count. Too many people are dazzled by marketing bullcrap lately.
Energy isn’t what kills .
What a lot of shooters don't understand is that the BC of bullets provided by the manufacturer is a calculated value based on the shape of the bullet probably verified by some shooting. In reality, Different guns will shoot the same bullet and if you do the math you'll end up with different values. Many years ago I read an article by a writer where he calculated the BC of different bullets by determining a bullet's velocity at two distances. I think it was 10 and 100 yards. None of his calculated BC's were as high as the quoted values from the manufacturer for the velocities he was firing. He went on to explain that it was because actual fired bullets would yaw more or less rapidly and through more or less of angle of yawing and all of this contributed to lower the actual BC. Made sense since a bullet flying even slightly sideways will have a lower BC. In addition, some bullets will stabilize more or less at longer distances. That's why you have to shoot at long distances to verify the actual drop at those distances to fine tune you ballistic solutions. Very few of these so called long distance hunter actually go through this process and even when they do, there are too many variables to ethically shoot game at these ridiculous distances. I am also sick of seeing hunters shooting rifles that are way too powerful for them. They could barely hit the vital zone of a big game animal at 200 yards let alone longer distances (judging from their bench rest results.) I'm a decent shooter with a reasonably accurate rifle and would never knowingly shoot a deer further than 300 yards and probably no further than 100 yards on moose or elk size game because of the remaining energy of my chosen caliber. If I can't call the animal in or stalk it for a good shot, I just don't shoot. I have chased wounded animals for days until I realized I'd never get a good shot on it again (it was just too smart for me.) I have also seen well struck animals that refused to go down and were never recovered. I've learned from my mistakes and will never repeat them if I can help it.
I part company with you when you start implying that it is unethical to "knowingly shoot a deer further than 300 yards and probably no further than 100 yards on moose or elk size game", because of the remaining energy of your chosen caliber, etc....I think it is great that you set limits for yourself. I do wonder just what caliber is your chosen caliber, what you are using for optics, and what bullet you use, as well as whether you are ranging your distances, estimating the distances, and what the terrain, cover, temperature, wind conditions, etc. are...my point is not to call you out, my point is that all of these variables combine uniquely in a moment in a typical hunt. What you choose to set as your limitations and declare as ethical may not apply to my ability to hunt, shoot, and to the equipment that I arm myself with...I hesitate to believe that you would restrict yourself to shooting an elk at either 100 yds or closer if you are adequately armed with what I believe to be an "elk caliber and type of bullet"...there are a multitude of rifles that can and do dispatch an elk that I do not feel are "elk rifles", but please do not try to convince me that a .300 Win mag loaded with a 180 grain Barnes TTSX should be confined to 100 yds in order to be ethical, or that the same applies to a .338 Lapua...they can and are used to ethically harvest large elk and moose every year at distances well beyond 100 yards here in Montana with open terrain. Obviously, not all hunters hunt equally, nor do all "shooters" shoot equally as well, and like you, should ethically choose to restrict their shots to their abilities and their opportunities. Happy hunting.
Excellent video.
My go to Florida deer cartridge is the 35 rem or 35 wheelen lots of brush close shots 150 yards or less either cartridge delivers well over 2000 ft lbs at 100 to 200 yards, I'm glad to see someone else trying to explain this to people I will add I use basic soft point ammo nothing special been killing game for a lot of years they hit expand and that animal takes all the energy that bullet has
Thanks Randy.
Cup and core bullets have been used on game since jacketed bullets were invented. Hornady interlock and Speer HotCor has proven to be fantastic deer hunting bullets fornme and my family in our corner of TN. Maybe they’re less ideal for 800 yards but here they’re absolutely phenomenal on deer, out of 30-30 Winchester, 25-06. I’ve taken game with cast bullets and everyone did before the invention of the cup and core bullet. Deer fall to cast pistol bullets, out of my muzzleloader with just 70-80gn charges of FFg BP. I wouldn’t try them at 300 yards with that charge on a windy day but 200 I’m confident.
I have to agree that we need to be careful to not try and outshoot our cartridges on game. Just because you can get a mark on the range doesn’t mean you can hit with enough authority on game at that range. I’ll share with you that I’ve had deer fall over where they were standing with shots that stopped on the skin on the exit side or far side. I’ve blown big ass holes through them and had them run 200 yards. Whether a bullet exits is at my range’s and in my experience irrelevant. Ideally you have 2 holes to bleed from but sometimes the temperature is a little lower and that shot punches through the heart but not the far side hide and it goes down anyway. I take it you’re talking about specific situations for specific terrain.
I much rather have a 490 BC that comes to rest or pass through the off side shoulder than a 640 BC that can't get pass the on side shoulder. Keep Preaching
I agree the Partition bullet is brilliant on deer
I agree and have come to the same conclusion on using a tougher bullet, especially if you are using bullet above 3100 FPS at the muzzle. There is all this talk of long range shooting but most game in my 40 years hunting out west of what I have shot and seen others bag game at most have been taken at less than 300 yards and this includes Antelope.
my ol' Army Ranger Vietnam Vet Father used to say these new guys out there hunting at such crazy distances, do so because they aren't very good at hunting. thank you for the knowledge sir. great video. I'm a fan.
Yeap nothing like field experience love to hear praise on nosler partition
I agree 100%, good work
Nice instruction and nice shirt too.
I completely agree with what you said my son shoots 7 mm08 and shooting low recoil loads sst bullet and it will come apart from one rib if a deer is closer than a 100yds I have never had a sst exit a deer from 300 wm if a deer runs very little blood.
Sir, I have just purchased a 338 WM Browning. I am looking at Winchester Accubond partition 225 grain for this rifle for game. Your thoughts?
I think of the energy required to take a game animal in these terms... what is the energy of an arrow at 15 or 20 yards?? If you can take an elk with a bow and arrow you can take one with a bullet that is carrying considerably more energy than an arrow. But an arrow must be precisely placed to be effective and the same goes for a bullet. Shot placement shot placement shot placement. If you can't put that bullet in the wheelhouse then don't take the shot.
Amen! I learned the hard way about the eldx on elk ,close range high velocity the performance was very poor,bout like varmint bullets. After that experience I tested different bullets at close range in water the eldx disintegrated.In hunting situations we need reliable penetration at close and long range.
Clayton Miller what caliber? Because I shot an elk at 50 yards with 300 rum with 212 grain eldx at 3020 fps and the exit hole was about 3 inches. I killed an antelope at 804 yards with same load and it left a 3 inch exit hole
Thank you. Really enjoyed this.
I get where he's coming from, however to call out Sierra GK's SSTs and ELD-Xs is illogical at this point in time. These bullets are doing so well with good shots placed on game that it really doesn't matter which projectile you use in this day in age.
All of these bullets are constantly putting animals on the ground fast, and the data backing up retained energy with high BC projectiles performing well has made this more boomer lore than reality at this day in age.
Yes, I agree that it's one hundred percent a function of energy. That is the most critical of the primary ballistics parameters, NOT velocity. Of course, energy, density, ballistics coefficient and velocity are all interrelated, but simply put, high ballistics coefficients allow fast bullets to retain their energy further downrange. That is just physics.
Mr. Selby, what do you think about the new Speer Gold Dot rifle bullets?
Irregardless is not a word
Try regardless. Works better
100% agreed. Ethical harvest should be the top priority of a hunter - and at ethical ranges for taking game, BC has negligible effect on whether or not you can make an ethical harvest.
I generally don’t take shoulder shots at game. I like to shoot them behind the shoulder through the heart and lungs. Leaves shoulder meat intact and kills them reasonably quickly.
My experience with about 200 dear and elk sized animals agree with you. Initially my reloads with Sierra bullets were so accurate, I hunted with them. On close shots at high velocities, the bullets came apart and if passed through, left a fist sized hole in the offside. After a few failures, I went to the Nosler partition. Complete pass through was routine with quarter sized exit hole. Didn't kill as fast but easy blood trail and dead animal within 30-50 yds. When recovery was possible, bullet retained about 60 percent wt and was classical mushroom. Have recovered 250 gr Nosler partition from brown bear and 160gr Nosler partition from elk and performance was great. I've been thinking about using the Nosler Accubonds from 7mm mag to increase long range potential on elk. Any thoughts on this ?
So.BC actually helps to keep you velocity and energy high,as well as helps midigate wind for shot placement.So I don't see exactly what you mean by a bc number never helped anyone bag an animal.Think of bc as free velocity.Dispite what this guy's saying there are numerous bullets out there that perform well on game and hold decent to high bc.Hornadys precision Hunter line is built around that thought process.Accuracy matters more than energy by far bar none.
Very intelligent points.
He contradicts himself a lot...
I'll work for you for free I just want to know half of what you forget about making guns.
Thanks for the compliment!
Me too
I don’t guess he’s forgot much
Add my name to the list. I have some experience with lathes and mills and always dreamt of being a gun maker. Hell I’d sweep the floor of the shop if I could just listen for payment.
That man knows what he is talking about. Listen to him
I had a 139gr Hornady SST blow up hitting a rib on a double lung shot at 45yds on a 225 pound deer with my 280 Remington. I recovered him but it took 2 days of looking. I went to Barnes after than and haven't looked back.
My dad always taught me to test my bullets in rounds of fire wood shot langth wise at the distance your willing to hunt at you dont need that fancy ballistic gel
Thank you for your expertise! Because of your experience listen to your advice very closely! Personally I’d never use a coyote round for an elk found. They’re completely different. What it really boils down to in my opinion is ethical or unethical Thank you for your professionalism. I do listen to what you have to say
You have some good insight on hunting and bullets for hunting and I really do appreciate your videos. I do however have one disagreement with you in this video. When you kinda slammed the guy who bragged about the 6mm bullets not penetrating through a coyote. I would agree with the coyote guy in that a bullet that doesn't exit a coyote is an ultimately perfect bullet. If you're just trying to kill a coyote that's one story, but if you are hunting for fur you absolutely would prefer no exit wounds. In my former life as a fur buyer I can tell you that a coyote with no exit hole might be worth $100 but that same coyote blown to hell with a giant exit wound may be totally worthless or only worth a few dollars. Thin walled, fall apart bullets do have a purpose in life. It's just not the same as a big game hunting bullet.Keep up the good work.Rob Anderson