I have every Vampire the Masquerade V20 book, including the dark ages ones. Honestly V20 Dark Ages is the best edition mechanically of Vampire the Masquerade, but only if you revert the nonsensical changes to Quietus and Obfuscate back to base V20
I appreciate that you understand the value of a martial having some spells in their back pocket. It's the whole reason Swarmkeeper is best on martials, on account of the spellcaster style versatility it adds to their kit.
yeah I agree. I think I come from a perspective of only wanting to play casters and being willing to venture into playing Martials. So I naturally have an inclination toward wanting to be able to use spells that have other abilities besides "I hit the thing again".
Huh, this seems like a nice flavorful archetype. I never paid to much attention because it looked too yucky, but now... it makes me wanna build the freakiest creepiest adventurer who calls worms, breathes insect swarms and makes everything rot :D I believe fire also sports a fair number of enemies with weakness, to offset immune and resistant ones. Depending on your adventure and sample size ofc. It never hurts to have a fire option at hand.
Ladies and gentlemen, we have a convert! Seriously - thank you for letting me know how excited you are to make something that has a lot of fun flavorful aspects of different things that are even recent like the swarmkeeper from howl of the wild. You can definitely combine this and that and other things to make a horrifying monster of a character.
I agree I've read though most of the archetypes and I have to admit I overlooked this one... Our professional orator here really helped me see the creativity behind this archetype.
Heh yeah he really is. He wants cuddles as much as Loot wants food. So anytime he has the option to do so, he wants to be in someone's lap walking all over them. He truly is adorable.
I'd say this archetype is more flavour than mechanics. - The dedication is alright (once per day limit on a failed save that won't improve to 1/hr like some similar options at L8 or above is basically an ancestry feat). - Wormsense is fun and I like that it scales, but topping out at 15ft as an imprecise sense is not hyper useful when we consider you might have a 10ft burrow speed at L10. - Wormskin is actually worth taking and is good for a monk or any martial that wants to use a 'unarmoured' monk stance so they can cap DEX at 16-18 and remain at their top AC sooner than L10 (dex focused) or L15 (STR focused). Otherwise anyone else has armor proficiency or can use a general feat for light armor. There are only a few other ways to do this (like through dragon disciple). - Any of the 'make a save' feats are all broken since they don't say if it is your Class DC, Spell DC, or higher of either and the archetype doesn't give you a purple worm DC. Either way, a high level feat for a once per day ability isn't good. Other comparable feats are once per hour or at least focus spells. - Burrow speed at L10 is sort of cool, but 10ft is rough. There are very few if any ways to improve a non-land speed in the game so this is going to be stuck at 10ft for most people. - Even the L14 worm form is only good for 1 level (i.e., L14). After which the attack bonus and AC all drop off and you won't get to benefit from any saving grace like a druids +2 status bonus to attack. - That capstone is bad. Summoning a CR13 creature at L18 is bad. This is the level when summons are so far below the monsters you are facing that they just irrelevant in combat unless they have some weird monster ability (like casting inspire courage) or provide spell casting flexibility (a few spell slot lower level heals for example). Otherwise a lot of these feats are at way too high a level for what you get (L10 for a swim speed?). Overall it could be a weird throw away free archetype selection based on flavour or for a STR monk to get their AC without taking DEX to 20, but I don't see much else here that is really worth it IMO.
I've been reading this off and on since you posted this comment. I don't agree on every point, sure; but you have a lot of valid points and I'd like to write an addendum to the Archetype so that people can more easily access this if they end up wanting to. I appreciate your thorough review and while the additions I'll make won't resolve every argument you make, I'll do my best to update it to the correct format and apply rules that already exist so that it's more useful for everyone and so it matches other Archetype's structures. Hopefully your perspective here can end up helping a lot of people. :)
Cool stuff as ever. Why the Old World of Darkness? I ones tried to DM a Firefly setting, using World of Darkness. And the players could take anything they wanted. The idea was that they were going to encounter "Dread Gates" as an FTL substitute. Call it "Dark Hyperspace" if you will. I had a super awesome story line about previous inhabitants, that were destroyed by the terraforming machines that arrived first. So undead space freaks was just one of the basic possibilities. Imagine that they were pretty advanced in an obscure technical/magical way that had a Cthulhu-esk feel to it. Regrettably, the campaign didn't last long, because my players preferred dungeon crawling over role play A LOT. So World of Darkness wasn't their cup of tea. They just couldn't handle the flexible nature of mages, which 3 players out of 5 took. And another one tried to play a Changeling --> Can you imagine that? The other one took Promethean. That actually went well. I guess, I just had to limit them to just one option ... like Hunter: The Vigil. Then I could have made it more of a mix of Firefly meets Supernatural, and it would have been easier on them. Instead I went WILD with my story. That was a mistake on my part 🤯😈👹
I like old world of Darkness because it is so flexible. Because it specifically states that role play is more important than rules. And even has structure set up to allow people to do things based on their general capability instead of having to roll dice. It's geared towards storytelling not toward gameplay. And you do have to have just the right group to be able to do it. And I'm sorry that you didn't. This makes me very sad. I've been there.
WoD was one of my first rpg experiences in the 90s (after AD&D and Marvel) and I loved it. There was so much LORE behind the types (vamp, were, mage), subtypes (Nosferatu, Get of Fenris, Akashic Brotherhood) and the way magic worked. So good.
I made a whole faction of pilgrims who are all plagued by stuff like this so I made a Hobgoblin using this an spells to make the area like a WW battlefield but ya know with a person flinging worm around
@@WisdomCheck the main members are a Fetchling who tends to building the camp an doing some minor town stuff an a healer Fleshwarp who loves animals so much he became a beast-kin but he is very wimpy besides knife a summoning a Kaiju lol
This is cool but HEAR ME OUT what if you went free archetype and took this and also Swarm Keeper with a swarm of worms? The pair mixes so well with... -Cleric of Lamashtu. Ultimaylte mother of worms. -Skeleton Druid. You embrace and embody the natural process of decomposition feeding nature. -Ganzi Kinetist (all elements). You are the ultimate Protean being, chaotically producing and summoning worms and your fledgeling warp powers allow you to destabilize the environment. -Fleshwarp Aberration Sorcerer. Should be obvious lol.
@@WisdomCheck 'full of worms' is an extremely specific character vibe that I wanna play. So far the best I have is a rapidly evolving eidolon who's muscles move "like serpents trapped in a leather bag" but I wanna to full Swarm Symbiosis one of these days.
@@McFatson Yeah I like that idea too. The Worm that Walks that you can play is a fascinating concept to me. Immortal but living eternity as a rotting pile of worms. I only feel alive when tasting the warmth of living flesh.
@@WisdomCheck Worm that Walks needs to be an ancestry lol. On the topic of immortality I'm plotting a merfolk who would take the feat that lets someone eat your corpse to gain temporary immortality. Then make a cannibal pact with a fellow merfolk so they can live forever. It's like a grim parody of a political marriage or something. An Eternal Dynasty of the Deep.
![[DRIP] ‘Woke Up In Tokyo (RUKA & ASA)’ PREVIEW](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/QN44lcR_VkI/mqdefault.jpg)
"Oh no is that the full moon?" *aggressive whale sounds commence*
HAHAHHA What the hell does that sound like?!
I'm still laughing about this today
@@Bald_Wizard_Man Yup, still funny.
At last I can be the Muad'dib! Or if I want to get weird, the child of the Muad'dib Leto, when Frank Herbert got really into 'the spice' so to speak.
Call a big one, Usul. 🤘
I have every Vampire the Masquerade V20 book, including the dark ages ones. Honestly V20 Dark Ages is the best edition mechanically of Vampire the Masquerade, but only if you revert the nonsensical changes to Quietus and Obfuscate back to base V20
Y'know what? THAT'S WHAT I THOUGHT!!!
Jeez! I love Dark Ages. It even allows for Old Clan Tzimisce and the time-twisting Brujah! It's JUST GOOD!!!
I appreciate that you understand the value of a martial having some spells in their back pocket. It's the whole reason Swarmkeeper is best on martials, on account of the spellcaster style versatility it adds to their kit.
yeah I agree. I think I come from a perspective of only wanting to play casters and being willing to venture into playing Martials. So I naturally have an inclination toward wanting to be able to use spells that have other abilities besides "I hit the thing again".
Huh, this seems like a nice flavorful archetype. I never paid to much attention because it looked too yucky, but now... it makes me wanna build the freakiest creepiest adventurer who calls worms, breathes insect swarms and makes everything rot :D
I believe fire also sports a fair number of enemies with weakness, to offset immune and resistant ones. Depending on your adventure and sample size ofc. It never hurts to have a fire option at hand.
Ladies and gentlemen, we have a convert!
Seriously - thank you for letting me know how excited you are to make something that has a lot of fun flavorful aspects of different things that are even recent like the swarmkeeper from howl of the wild. You can definitely combine this and that and other things to make a horrifying monster of a character.
I agree I've read though most of the archetypes and I have to admit I overlooked this one... Our professional orator here really helped me see the creativity behind this archetype.
@@Dudeman715 😁❤️
Ghast is a cutie! I love kitties!
Heh yeah he really is. He wants cuddles as much as Loot wants food. So anytime he has the option to do so, he wants to be in someone's lap walking all over them. He truly is adorable.
Average Worm Caller true nightmare of Boba Fett.
Jesus. No kidding.
Being in Melee with an Invisible creature makes Tremorsense 5ft amazing
oh shit. Good point.
It's here at last!!!🎉🎉🎉
Thank you!
Heehee yeah I'm glad you got to see it. 😁👋
I love piifff 2! Hahahaha I laugh every time
Hee hee yay!
I'd say this archetype is more flavour than mechanics.
- The dedication is alright (once per day limit on a failed save that won't improve to 1/hr like some similar options at L8 or above is basically an ancestry feat).
- Wormsense is fun and I like that it scales, but topping out at 15ft as an imprecise sense is not hyper useful when we consider you might have a 10ft burrow speed at L10.
- Wormskin is actually worth taking and is good for a monk or any martial that wants to use a 'unarmoured' monk stance so they can cap DEX at 16-18 and remain at their top AC sooner than L10 (dex focused) or L15 (STR focused). Otherwise anyone else has armor proficiency or can use a general feat for light armor. There are only a few other ways to do this (like through dragon disciple).
- Any of the 'make a save' feats are all broken since they don't say if it is your Class DC, Spell DC, or higher of either and the archetype doesn't give you a purple worm DC. Either way, a high level feat for a once per day ability isn't good. Other comparable feats are once per hour or at least focus spells.
- Burrow speed at L10 is sort of cool, but 10ft is rough. There are very few if any ways to improve a non-land speed in the game so this is going to be stuck at 10ft for most people.
- Even the L14 worm form is only good for 1 level (i.e., L14). After which the attack bonus and AC all drop off and you won't get to benefit from any saving grace like a druids +2 status bonus to attack.
- That capstone is bad. Summoning a CR13 creature at L18 is bad. This is the level when summons are so far below the monsters you are facing that they just irrelevant in combat unless they have some weird monster ability (like casting inspire courage) or provide spell casting flexibility (a few spell slot lower level heals for example).
Otherwise a lot of these feats are at way too high a level for what you get (L10 for a swim speed?). Overall it could be a weird throw away free archetype selection based on flavour or for a STR monk to get their AC without taking DEX to 20, but I don't see much else here that is really worth it IMO.
I've been reading this off and on since you posted this comment. I don't agree on every point, sure; but you have a lot of valid points and I'd like to write an addendum to the Archetype so that people can more easily access this if they end up wanting to. I appreciate your thorough review and while the additions I'll make won't resolve every argument you make, I'll do my best to update it to the correct format and apply rules that already exist so that it's more useful for everyone and so it matches other Archetype's structures.
Hopefully your perspective here can end up helping a lot of people. :)
Cool stuff as ever.
Why the Old World of Darkness?
I ones tried to DM a Firefly setting, using World of Darkness. And the players could take anything they wanted.
The idea was that they were going to encounter "Dread Gates" as an FTL substitute. Call it "Dark Hyperspace" if you will.
I had a super awesome story line about previous inhabitants, that were destroyed by the terraforming machines that arrived first.
So undead space freaks was just one of the basic possibilities.
Imagine that they were pretty advanced in an obscure technical/magical way that had a Cthulhu-esk feel to it.
Regrettably, the campaign didn't last long, because my players preferred dungeon crawling over role play A LOT.
So World of Darkness wasn't their cup of tea.
They just couldn't handle the flexible nature of mages, which 3 players out of 5 took.
And another one tried to play a Changeling --> Can you imagine that?
The other one took Promethean. That actually went well.
I guess, I just had to limit them to just one option ... like Hunter: The Vigil.
Then I could have made it more of a mix of Firefly meets Supernatural, and it would have been easier on them.
Instead I went WILD with my story.
That was a mistake on my part 🤯😈👹
I like old world of Darkness because it is so flexible. Because it specifically states that role play is more important than rules. And even has structure set up to allow people to do things based on their general capability instead of having to roll dice. It's geared towards storytelling not toward gameplay.
And you do have to have just the right group to be able to do it. And I'm sorry that you didn't. This makes me very sad. I've been there.
WoD was one of my first rpg experiences in the 90s (after AD&D and Marvel) and I loved it. There was so much LORE behind the types (vamp, were, mage), subtypes (Nosferatu, Get of Fenris, Akashic Brotherhood) and the way magic worked. So good.
@@americannerdinnz I totally agree. I wish Mage were just as popular as Pathfinder 2 so that I could do an on stream game of it.
I made a whole faction of pilgrims who are all plagued by stuff like this
so I made a Hobgoblin using this an spells to make the area like a WW battlefield but ya know with a person flinging worm around
@@senritsujumpsuit6021 Haha! Nice. Good idea applying the concept to a whole group of people.
@@WisdomCheck the main members are a Fetchling who tends to building the camp an doing some minor town stuff an a healer Fleshwarp who loves animals so much he became a beast-kin but he is very wimpy besides knife a summoning a Kaiju lol
@@senritsujumpsuit6021 Awwww I love the personality!
This is cool but HEAR ME OUT what if you went free archetype and took this and also Swarm Keeper with a swarm of worms? The pair mixes so well with...
-Cleric of Lamashtu. Ultimaylte mother of worms.
-Skeleton Druid. You embrace and embody the natural process of decomposition feeding nature.
-Ganzi Kinetist (all elements). You are the ultimate Protean being, chaotically producing and summoning worms and your fledgeling warp powers allow you to destabilize the environment.
-Fleshwarp Aberration Sorcerer. Should be obvious lol.
Man, you always speak to my heart. I love these ideas. Especially the Skeleton Druid because I wouldn't have thought of it. :)
@@WisdomCheck 'full of worms' is an extremely specific character vibe that I wanna play. So far the best I have is a rapidly evolving eidolon who's muscles move "like serpents trapped in a leather bag" but I wanna to full Swarm Symbiosis one of these days.
@@McFatson Yeah I like that idea too. The Worm that Walks that you can play is a fascinating concept to me.
Immortal but living eternity as a rotting pile of worms.
I only feel alive when tasting the warmth of living flesh.
@@WisdomCheck Worm that Walks needs to be an ancestry lol.
On the topic of immortality I'm plotting a merfolk who would take the feat that lets someone eat your corpse to gain temporary immortality. Then make a cannibal pact with a fellow merfolk so they can live forever.
It's like a grim parody of a political marriage or something. An Eternal Dynasty of the Deep.
@@McFatson oooo creepy
I like the world of WOD and it is great playing a human, but when you are a cryonos were rolling 8 or more d 10 just gets tiring
heh yeah that's true. But I had a whole vampire set that was all black with little red roses for the 1 side. They were pretty!
Do snakes count as worm related??? lol they're noodles too hahaha
I think all danger noodles are equally valid. Worms, snakes, sea serpents, whatever you like