Thailand New Tax Rules Coming 2024?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 24 ก.ค. 2024
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Thailand's released new tax guidance advising that there will be a change to how foreign-sourced income is taxed from 1 January 2024. There's been a lot of incorrect information around as the change has driven a media frenzy, so I address some of the most important misconceptions that I've seen.
0:00 Introduction
0:42 What's really changing?
2:38 What about savings brought into Thailand?
3:21 Who is likely to be affected?
3:39 Tax strategy that has worked up until now
4:36 Double Tax Treaties - common misconceptions
5:24 Double Tax Treaty Fundamentals (Non-Americans)
8:27 Double Tax Treaty Fundamentals (Americans)
9:23 Summary
A BIT ABOUT ME
I've been advising on international tax since 2014, and qualified as a Chartered Accountant in 2018. I worked for consulting firms PricewaterhouseCoopers and BDO, before I started a remote international tax consultancy firm, Degen Tax Advisers, in 2020.
I work with online entrepreneurs to help them navigate the complex world of international tax. I work with e-commerce businesses, digital nomads, content creators, tech startups, crypto investors and many more in the digital space. Like my clients I'm pretty nomadic. I've lived in the UK, US, Japan, South Korea, China, Malaysia, Thailand, Vietnam and Singapore. Currently I'm spending most of my time around Southeast Asia.
DISCLAIMER
My videos are for general guidance, education and providing you an introduction to the concepts of international tax. They in no way constitute specific advice to your specific circumstances. I accept no liability for any reliance placed upon the content of these videos or references, therein.
By far the most common question I've had on this has been how to identify Savings vs Income. Hopefully this video can provide a bit more insight. th-cam.com/video/3fou6BNO-so/w-d-xo.html
Thanks Andy, Subscribed and looking forward to further updates. What a pleasure to hear such a clear interpretation of the subject compared to others I have watched and learnt nothing.
Thank you for your kind words, much appreciated!
Excellent. Thanks for the clarifications, especially regarding SAVINGS, i.e. transferring money from my overseas account to my Thai account.
Thanks Andy for your clear and concise explanation. I think the reason for fear is that lack of clarity, which is not unusual here in Thai announcements: (i) made, (ii) reaction assessed, and (iii) walked back. Until there is clarity, it would be prudent to consider other plans for tax avoidance, such as not living here full time. However, that is not entirely desirable as an older expat, but a decision I will have to make, as the ruling, or interpretation becomes clearer. I will be in touch as and when RD make things clear, or the government overrides the new interpretation, in line with that which has prevailed for the past 38 years.
Thanks for the kind words! Yes absolutely, and I've seen this kind of thing happen a lot in Southeast Asia generally. I had to deal with a similar issue in Malaysia last year when it was announced that their generous treatment of foreign income was to suddenly end in 2023 (with taxpayers only given a few months notice). The uproar meant that they basically U-turned on that policy and kicked the can down the road until 2027. The backlash I've observed from this current Thai situation feels even greater than the one in Malaysia, so I'd definitely expect some form of additional clarity announced or perhaps even a slightly walked back guidance. As ever a 'wait and see' approach rather than an instantly reactive one seems to be the way to go in these cases!
Thanks man!
Great video as always 💪
Thanks again Akram, much appreciated!
Very helpful, thank you Amdy
Thank You for this common sense approach. As you mention, the 'internet' is alive and well speculating about this issue but you my friend are the voice of common sense and logic.~
I will be following this with interest as I intend to retire to Thailand next year, from the uk, with my pension. Thanks for your clear and sensible video, it needs to be seen far and wide to stop all the 'rubbish' being spouted. Subbed.
Thanks for the info. Just subscribed ✅
Great information. Thanks for doing this.
Thanks Ted, much appreciated!
thanks Your site is much superior to all the other sites dealing with this issue congratulations . I will spread your site to all our friends.
It looks like key is dont spend more than 183 days visiting to avoid any link to being a tax resident period stop.
Additionaly and second the deposit sent in to purchase condo will surely not be taxable if you are not a resident otherwise you are going to be prone to filing and getting hooked into reporting ..eg again seems clear one must never stay more than the max days or you will be forced to file. Your summary seems to make the key point avoid time linkage that is imperative
Regards
Thank you very much. And yes spending < 183 days is always an excellent rule of thumb - some countries have other ties you have to check too, but in general, the 183 days rule is a good starting point.
And yes if you're non resident then a deposit to purchase a condo will not be taxable.
Thanks, very clear and informative. In practice, if you have a bank account holding “old” savings but also receiving “new” income, and you transfer funds from that account into Thailand - how could you show the money belonged to one or the other bucket? Money is fungible…. Seems this could get quite tricky if it ends up going in that direction.
Thanks for the kind words! And great question - this is indeed a logistical issue that most of the other advisors I've spoken to, including big 4 firms, have raised with the tax authority - this is an area I think we'll get more guidance on because it seems like it could get messy quickly.
Very often new guidance does get recommended and then quickly rescinded or tweaked because the rule makers don't have any experience of the practical implications, and the advisors & taxpayers quickly let them know! This feels like a possibility here.
For now, I think taxpayers should probably take snapshots of their 'original' savings for reference as a starting point. Lets say you had $20k of savings before moving to Thailand. My recommendation is that you keep track of everything drawn down in Thailand, and can confidently take $20k in before thinking about taxable income. Akin to a first-in, first-out principle of stock keeping.
So its just important to know what was your starting savings balance you came in with, and not to let any build up of that savings balance (e.g from more regular taxable income coming in) change how you perceive your taxable vs non-taxable portions.
Ideally, they'll give us clearer guidance on this. But for now it's just about making a best effort attempt as this will always keep you on the right side of the tax authority if they are to question you.
It's called receipts to show proof of income type and its sources.
Got my sub - will book a call soon. 💪
Hi there, you mentioned "income brought into Thailand" but the report is mentioning "worldwide income" doesn't matter if it's brought on a Thai bank account or not. That's why they signed the CRS last year. As I understand, if you're spending more than 180 days a year, then you have to pay taxes on every source of income world wide unless it's already taxed in a country where there is a double tax treaty.
Hi, it's true that they're taxing worldwide income, but if it's foreign sourced, it still has to be 'brought into' Thailand for it to be taxable.
See here: tax-ez.info/Revenue/View/0JVFZVpZ/
DI No. 161/2566
"A resident of Thailand who in the previous year derived assesable income under Section 40 from an employment or business carried out abroad or from a property situated abroad shall, upon bringing such assesable income into Thailand, pay in accordance with the provisions of this part"
So whilst all worldwide income comes into the scope, anything which is Thai sourced is taxed on an accrued basis (i.e doesnt matter if its paid into Thailand or not) but anything foreign sourced still has to be paid into Thailand before it is taxed.
@@WorldTaxAndy You're 100% I just translated the official letter. Thank you for the infos!
@@Theophile-eliet No problem! I think your point about CRS is important - personally, I'm hesitant to get too comfortable with this latest guidance, because ultimately it still keeps Thailand out of line with most countries. Its pretty unusual to only have a 'taxed when received' system, and I think its probably only a matter of time before they eventually have to change it under pressure from the rest of the world. So for now, whilst Thailand is still a good place to be if you have foreign sourced income, I'd be nervous about recommending it for a long term strategy!
I agree. Thank you very much for taking the time to explain us and give me details on it.@@WorldTaxAndy
Thanks Andy for very informative video. Very helpful in educating naive person like me on this complex issue. Just one quesiion: If one already has enough money to live here for foreseeable future and does not bring any more money into the country, he will not be liable to any tax. If so, then I will sell my expensive houses I own and live on that money here without bringing in any money from outside.
Hi thanks for the kind words. Yes if you already have sufficient savings you won't need to worry about tax on these. Selling your house could come with some tax implications if the house has risen in value since you purchased it (you may have to pay income tax on this capital gain) so you'd just have to confirm this with a property expert.
@@WorldTaxAndyThank you very much Andy. Very, very helpful.
You could simply use your foreign ATM card for all monthly expenses and don’t transfer any funds from your foreign bank into Thai bank account. That way no foreign fund transfer took place.
Technically Thailand regards money spent in Thailand as a Thai remittance - so spending money with a foreign ATM card could be deemed taxable. But of course there is the logistical consideration here, can they actually enforce this? Many expats do keep track of their foreign account ATM withdrawals/purchases in Thailand for tax purposes, but on the Thai Revenue side of things its hard to know what sort of capabilities they have for tracking this
Very helpful video thank you. I'm planning to live in Thailand in the future on UK SIPP draw down, ISAs and UK rental income, all declared on UK self assessment. I wonder if this will increase the paperwork burden even if nothing else, let's see
Hi Howard, thanks for the kind words. I would hope the Thai revenue would take a sensible approach given the extra paperwork seems a lot of hassle without much payoff for them (most retirees will end up owing no taxes anyway). Given the backlash I'd expect them to respond with (hopefully) some simplified guidance for retirees.
Typhoon force winds expected in Thailand beginning January 2024 as foreigners run for the border.
Thanks for this clear and concise video! This helped. Just one question: You mention that transferring savings into Thailand shouldn't be a problem if they were earned/acquired when you were not a thai tax resident.
But what if you were? Let's say that you have been in Thailand since 2017 and done some offshore work a few months each year during that time. You haven't paid tax on it according to how the rules were previously. Could they now go after you for those earnings, or would anything before the 1st of January 2024 be considered "tax-free" savings?
Hi John, thanks for the kind words, and great question. According to the latest from Thailand, the guidance is to be applied from 1 January 2024 onwards, which to me implies that anything brought into Thailand in 2024 onwards comes under the scope of this. So even if 'earned' pre 2024, it becomes riskier to move it in 2024. But I can't say this for 100% certainty - this is definitely something we need more guidance on - because a clear planning opportunity would be to move those funds into Thailand before 2024 (assuming earned pre-2023). I've seen some advisors already suggesting clients do this. I'm not sure it's the right approach just yet because I'd imagine we'll get an update on the guidance before the end of December.
Thanks for the prompt reply! Just subbed, I'll turn to this channel for logical, non-fear-mongering news about the new policy @@WorldTaxAndy
I get a monthly Australian pension not taxed will l b affected??
thanks I just sent to the top 4 Real Estate companies link to this video and suggest they start to follow you for advise as if this law is dogmatically and draconianly applied it will crash the sale market for condos and dramatically impact their business . Assume you will get some clients from this excellent summary Regards no need to reply we will continue to follow and disseminate your videos super work
Hi Andy
Thank you for taking the time to help us all understand a bit more about this subject.
My question is simple: I have a UK state pension and a military retired pension. I pay income tax on the total income minus personal allowance. This is then transferred from UK to Thailand each month. Under the DTA rules, is this income exempt from the new/revised proposed legislation?
Many thanks
Hi Dan, thanks for the kind words.
So in terms of the rule changes, in theory, these changes should not impact you. Because technically, the only rule change is to tax income as it's brought into Thailand regardless of whether you wait until the following calendar year to do so (as opposed to the previous interpretation which was delaying bringing this in until the next calendar year would exempt it from income tax).
For pensioners, its rare that any were utilising this previously tax advantageous setup - because most got paid into Thailand in the same year that they receive their pension from the UK.
However, when you are paying taxes in the UK, the DTA side of things is still to be carefully looked at. And this is what throws up an old issue which has never cleanly been resolved from the UK / Thai DTA perspective.
Because unfortunately the Double Tax Agreement does not explicitly mention state & private pensions. The DTA which was written in 1981, so this has been the case for over 40 years.
Now an approach I've seen most take is simply declare pension in UK self assessment as UK sourced income anyway, and assume that Thailand simply won't come after this. Technically speaking this has always made me slightly uncomfortable because if we read the actual Thai tax code & DTT it should be that Thailand is where the pension is declared (all assuming you spend > 180 days in Thailand). But in practice, I've yet to see any expats run into issues with assuming the UK source treatment of their pension to hold.
Ultimately there's a question of logistics/enforcement too. As above this has technically been the case for UK pensioners in Thailand for 40 years and I've never heard of one case of any running into issue. In general pensioners tend to be left alone compare to other demographics because the tax take to be gained from pensioners is usually relatively low & there's a lot more low hanging fruit for the Thai tax authorities to tackle elsewhere. That's not to say it can't ever happen, but the likelihood feels extremely rare. Indeed I know of pensioners (and those on education and tourist visas) who have actually tried to register with Thai tax office & pay taxes but have been rejected - a very different experience to HMRC! So enforcement & law can be two very conflicting realities in Thailand.
I do hope we get more clarity from the Thai authorities in the coming months - I would say that this is more likely to happen specifically with regards the new rules rather than the DTA
@WorldTaxAndy
Many thanks for a simplification of a 40 year old rule. We will have to wait and see.
Actually a really good vlog with info you can use for something. I have a simple question regarding the following quote from the web (Belaws): "One of the significant advantages of the Thailand Elite Visa is the tax exemption it offers on any income earned outside of Thailand. This means you can enjoy your foreign income without worrying about taxes in Thailand, making it an attractive option for individuals with international income. 24 Aug 2023." Is it correct?
Thanks for the kind words, as I understand it the Thai elite visa has undergone some massive overhauls recently (I'm not a visa expert so this wouldn't be my specific area to consult on, it would be good to get a Thai based lawyer for this) but generally speaking a lot of retirement type visas do intend to provide retirees with some degree of tax protection as an incentive. I wouldn't be surprised if this was the case for the new visas that are coming out. I'll do some digging into this area and hopefully be able to provide further clarity soon!
Same for the LTR visas they offer taxe exemption and was created less than 1 year ago just got mine 10 years visa LTR work from home so my understanding it would not apply
The first YT video to mention and consider ”taxing rights” ... always look at the DTT ”tie breaker rules”.
Great vid 👌
Thanks for the kind words! Hoping I can help steer some people in the right direction - this stuff can get very complex but I think everyone is capable of understanding the basic principles so hopefully I can help get that message out there
Hi Andy thanks great video. I dont think you mentioned the case of LTRs and namely work from thailand LTRs, just got my ltr work from thailand and one of the benefit stated is no i come taxe from overseas worl it is still on the BOI website i got 10 years visa on my passport. So this new law should not apply ? I plan to stay more than 180 days in thailand. Thanks for your reply
Hi thanks for the kind words - yes I've been informed by LTR specialists that a ruling was passed last year to provide LTRs with a tax exemption on foreign income. So this should not impact LTR visa holders
Those Thailand-based expats who are affected might consider being based in Cambodia for seven months of the year, and Thailand for five months. To get a retirement visa for Cambodia you only need to meet one criteria - be over 55.
Thanks for the insight, this definitely sounds like a good workaround for some.
@@WorldTaxAndy I think a tax exile lifestyle is the direction things are going in. Eg, include a third jurisdiction, such as Philippines on a tourist visa, to avoid being in any jurisdiction long enough to have tax residency status. Thank you.
Can you please elaborate about the philippines? Are foreign income not taxable?
@@floriang4921 So Philippines does tax you on foreign income if you're a resident (spend > 180 days there). However I believe the last comment was suggesting you spend
@@WorldTaxAndy I understand, but if do not spend more than 180 days in any country my tax residency would be my home country which is not helping.
Sounds like more paperwork minimum for retirees. Tax withheld on Thai savings account OK but if they want 1 more baht on money already taxed in Canada, I'm gone.
Agreed Wayne - if you're already being taxed in Canada then you should be protected under the Thai/Canada Double Tax Agreement. However, the potential additional paperwork feels unnecessary & overly burdensome given I don't see it raising much additional funds. This is why I'm expecting that we'll get more guidance coming because the backlash from investors, retirees etc has been huge recently. A similar thing happened in Malaysia last year and they had to U-turn on a new tax policy. So hoping Thailand follows suit
Nope. Higher of the two. Anyone who lives in Thailand over 180 days, you will owe taxes in Thailand and submit a Thai tax return, always 100%.
Sounds like they want us gone
You,me and tens of thousands of people
Thank you for your clear video and repies to questions.
Please can you clarify my situation with reference to the UK tax agreements with Thailand.
My income from private pensions and rental income is sourced solely in the UK and is taxed each year via UK self-assesment taxation.
Though living in Thailand on a retirement visa I am regarded as domiciled in the UK for tax purposes.
In order to fulfil the financial requirements for obtaining a retirement visa I transfer the required amount of money each month from a UK bank account to a Thai bank account, which shows the code on my bank statement as 'funds for long term stay in Thailand.
I am assuming I won't be required to pay tax on this monthly transfer. Is this correct?
Will I need to show my tax has been paid to the UK government and if so how do demonstrate this to the Thai government.
Thank you.
Thanks for the kind words, hugely appreciated!
So rental income is certainly taxable solely in the UK. Per the UK / Thai Double Tax Treaty the UK has full taxing rights over any property physically located in the UK.
The private pension side of things is a bit more grey. The DTT unfortunately doesn't have a specific provision for pensions other than government pensions, so we've always been left a bit in the dark on this. Now an approach I've seen most take is simply declare pension in UK self assessment as UK sourced income anyway, and assume that Thailand simply won't come after this. Technically speaking this has always made me slightly uncomfortable because if we read the actual Thai tax code & DTT it should be that Thailand is where the pension is declared & the UK where property income is declared (all assuming you spend > 180 days in Thailand). But in practice, I've yet to see any expats run into issues with assuming the UK source treatment of their pension to hold.
In terms of monthly transfers - if this comes from property income then definitely no tax as Thailand has no rights to tax this so no concerns there. Transfers of the pension - its dependent on the Thai government agreeing this is UK sourced and not taxable in Thailand as per the prior paragraph. Again, never seen an instance where they've contested this, but it would be nice to get more clarity from them here (hopefully this will be part of their guidance update which I'd expect in the coming weeks).
But regarding showing anything to the Thai government (and this goes for all SE Asian tax authorities I've dealt with so far including Malaysia, Singapore & Indonesia) they generally accept a UK Self Assessment tax return as evidence that your income has been subject to tax in the UK.
@@WorldTaxAndy Thank you so much.
FYI I just checked my self-assesment tax calculation and it specifies 'UK pensions and state benefits' . There is mention of private pensions. In reality my pension can only be paid in the UK as the funds came from UK government approved schemes and the funds can only be used to generate an income in the UK. Presumably as the UK government granted tax relief on the contributions then they have laws governing how those funds are used and that they rightly feel that they now get that tax back if applicable.
Slight correction ' no mention of private pensions' apologies for any confusion.
Good video
The sharing of information and the impact it has in my home country is what concerns me. The best thing for me is to spend less than 179 days in Thailand. I'll spend my money elsewhere for the remainder.
how does one contact you for some info on tax treaties between Thailand and Canada. I don't see any links to your business.
Hi feel free to reach out at via my business website www.degenwealth.com or email advisers@degenwealth.com
I will be retiring to Thailand and my UK Government occupational pension will, eventually, be paid directly into my Thai bank account. My monthly pension will be taxed at source by the UK. Presumably, if there is any suggestion of it also being eligible for tax in Thailand, presenting pension payment statements showing taxes paid in UK and the Uk/Thailand double tax treaty will resolve this. However, is this something that can be done by me or do I need to hire a tax accountant/lawyer to act on my behalf to establish my tax position in Thailand?
Hi Rob, presenting your statements / income sources should not require any legal assistance. If the Thai tax authority was to audit you (which is typically rare) I would definitely advise getting a lawyer/accountant because you'll probably need specialist advice on how to explain the double tax treaty position etc. In the meantime, hopefully we will get further clarity from Thailand in the coming months on the position for pensions. For the moment, it seems like little will change, but I'd expect a more concrete statement from them soon
When were pensions added to Assessable Income.
It is not in my copy of the tax law from Revenue Dept.
Hi John, pensions have been in assessable income for a long time, but most people don't have to worry about it as their pension is typically taxed in their country of source and there's often a Double Tax Treaty in place to protect double taxation
www.rd.go.th/english/37749.html#section40
Andy, my belgian pension comes into my thai bank account and because its very low, belgium does not tax me. What will happen now ?@@WorldTaxAndy
Andy, I own a condo in Thailand. I visited Thailand as tourist less of than 180 days a year. Does my rental income subjected taxable?
Hi, yes - even as a non-Thai tax resident, you are subject to tax on income sourced in Thailand which includes rental income from property located in Thailand.
If you are tax resident elsewhere you will generally be able to avoid double taxation if that place has a treaty with Thailand. In some cases the property rental income will be exempt in the other jurisdiction, in some cases the tax paid in Thailand will be a credit against your tax in the other jurisdiction, it will depend on the treaty.
suoer we are now subscribing to your site and we have recommended to our friends at two Embassies
I have read listened to others you are the best Issue bought expensive 1% condo so as an American wiring in full payment from saving account in USA . Could this money be taxed ?? It seems inconceivable albeit how the hell do you prove its from an account. I listened to this 3 times and you seem to indicate if its from savings you are ok but if money flows from and investment company eg Merrill lynch etc would they think this is earned from investments ? thanks
Hi thanks for the kind words!
If its coming from a savings account in the US then it sounds like its from US savings which you've probably paid tax on in the past. In which case it shouldn't be taxed in Thailand.
A good thing to do is keep tax records (e.g 1040 filings) and you can also download statements from your Merrill Lynch accounts showing you where the cash comes from.
Hi Andy, Great Video thanks. I work in Bulgaria and my salary is taxed here, I am using my Thai account for deposit and do all my transactions through this account. Would I be liable for tax on my income in this situation?
Hi thanks for the kind words - so you're in Bulgaria full time but funds go to a Thai bank account? In which case that's a pretty unique situation! But you wouldn't be liable for tax in Thailand because you'd need to be a Thai tax resident first (spent 180 days in the year in Thailand) before any of this would impact you.
Thanks a lot Andy@@WorldTaxAndy
I am staying in Thailand with Non-O visa ( dependent visa), I work remotely ( work from home) based in UK. The company wants me to pay tax while I stay in Thailand. Please explain me if I have. Thanks in advance.
Hi, generally speaking if you're working full time in Thailand then it's Thailand sourced income and you should not be paying any UK taxes on this income. But you would declare this income on a Thai tax return. This is assuming you're a Thai tax resident (spend more than 6 months in Thailand in a calendar year).
If you get an Australian pension put into a Australia bank, then transfer it to your Thai bank, do you pay tax?
Hi, this should be okay as almost all Australians have Aus tax deducted at source on their pensions. If this is your only source of income I wouldn't be concerned about these rule changes affecting you
I tried to post this in a 'well known' facebook Thailand group today.~
The post was refused due to admin ignorance.
They think this is another 'gossip' video
It's a great shame they didn't bother to listen to you and actually learn something that will help.
Needless to say I have left the group, facebook groups are so toxic.
Haha yes that's been my experience. I originally made this video because I saw a lot of bad info flying around a FB group and thought I could help alleviate some concerns - I quickly found it's a thankless task! I'll know better and not bother next time. I'll keep making content for my own audience but will not venture near those groups - they're filled with some of the most miserable people around!
I have a slight quibble with the slide presented at 4:27. On what basis do you assert that a UK citizen who is tax resident in Thailand does not pay UK tax on dividends paid by UK companies? UK citizens benefit from a dividend allowance (£1000 in the 2023/24 tax year) and a personal allowance (£12,570 for 2023/24) but dividends are definitely "subject to tax" and an actual tax liability will arise on dividend income in excess of the dividend allowance if total taxable income from all UK sources exceeds the personal tax allowance.
Hi, thanks for the question and indeed I should have clarified that this illustrative example assumes that there is only UK dividend income and no other UK sources. The main purpose was to demonstrate how a common tax planning strategy will be impacted by the Thai income tax changes, and wasn't intended to go deep into the tax treatment from any other country's perspective.
Nonetheless in the scenario presented where the UK citizen earns UK dividends and no other UK sourced income, then there will be no UK taxes on these dividends. This scenario is a very common tax planning arrangement for UK non-residents.
This is due to the 'disegarded income' rules. 'Disregarded income' includes UK dividends.
library.croneri.co.uk/cch_uk/gcabe/4-8
If you’re non UK resident, the tax you pay on all your income can't be more than:
- the amount of tax that would be chargeable on income, other than the ‘disregarded income’, but before the deduction of any personal allowances due
- plus the amount of tax deducted at source from the ‘disregarded income’
Note: for UK dividends where the recipient is non-resident (Section 383 ITTOIA), s399(2) provides that tax is treated as paid at the dividend ordinary rate (DOR) on the dividend, currently 8.75%
Thus in a case where the liability on dividends is only at the DOR there is no tax payable. If the person would be liable at the higher rates on dividends then the operation of s811 ITA ensures that the tax payable is limited to the 8.75% deemed paid by s 399(2) and the higher rates in excess of that are not payable.
Notoriously Phillip Green's wife took advantage of this by taking a tax-free dividend of £1.2bn from Arcadia Group Ltd due to her tax residency in Monaco.
So, what happens if someone is both Thai and Canadian but is now living in Thailand as a Thai citizen? When he earns income from TH-cam and other online sources, the money is deposited into a Canadian bank. He then transfers that money to his Thai bank account in Thailand. Now this person has to pay tax in both Canada and Thailand?
Hi, if you're living in Thailand it's unlikely you'd be a Canadian tax resident. Thankfully Canada doesn't act like the US and will let you lose your tax residency if you spend insufficient days there.
So generally you'd pay only Thai income taxes. But, lets say for whatever reason you were a tax resident of both countries (rare but can happen - see the Canada tax residency requirements here www.canada.ca/en/revenue-agency/services/tax/international-non-residents/information-been-moved/determining-your-residency-status.html). Then you'd have to check the Canada Thailand double tax treaty to see who has rights to tax your income.
In either case, the DTT ensures you won't pay tax in both.
Thank you 😊
Still not sure which country will get my income/ or SS when that comes about. Good info and hope will not be double taxs.
Hi, if you're from the US, then it will be the US. The Thai / US double tax treaty says:
"social security benefits and other similar public pensions paid by a Contracting State to a resident of the other Contracting State or a citizen of the United States shall be taxable only in the first-mentioned State."
In other words, the US gets to tax this and Thailand cannot.
😀😀😀@@WorldTaxAndy
Wanted to ask specifically about "Bringing savings into Thailand is not taxable" at 02:40 - how so? You had to earn income at some point of time before it settles in your savings. And with this new definition that means that it should still be taxed. Am I missing something? This all is so confusing :) What difference do these tax rules and changes make when I can put everything I earn into savings first and then move? Something doesn't sound right.
So its important to clarify that there's two main basis for taxation for foreign sourced income.
It has to be (1) assessable income from a Thai perspective AND (2) brought into Thailand.
Assessable income is all income defined here: www.rd.go.th/english/37749.html#section40 If it doesn't come under one of those categories then it can't be considered as income - moving funds between your own account (savings) can't be seen as income.
Of course the next stage if the implementation/logistical side which is important - how do you prove that you're merely moving savings between your own accounts vs moving assessable income.
If you put money you 'earn' into savings first, and then move it, this would be a risky move because the 'earned' money would be assessable income. But if you'd earned that money historically (whilst not a Thai tax resident and/or paid taxed on it elsewhere) then you can prove that you have moved cash from savings.
@@WorldTaxAndy I think I *finally* started getting it. Thank you :) One more clarification about paid taxes on it elsewhere. I assume it works because of double tax treaty? [ EDIT: Yes, you perfectly explained in another comment thread ] A little worried about this one too. I know Philippines and Thailand are different countries, but there was a precedent in Philippines with Manny Pacquiao when he had to suffer years of court battles and accusations of not paying taxes in Philippines when he already paid in the US. Glad that he won. But I don't want to invite government in my life when I have to prove I'm innocent :)
My USA pension is a “disability pension” from a state government and is tax exempt in the U.S. Would this also be exempt from taxes in Thailand?
Hi Tommy, under the US / Thailand Double Tax Treaty (articles 20 and 21), it is the US that retains the taxing rights. Meaning, the US treatment is all that matters here - so if they exempt it, then it's exempt - Thailand cannot tax this.
@@WorldTaxAndy thank you Andy for your expert knowledge!
@@WorldTaxAndyso your saying SS pensions coming from America as American citizen living in Thailand, full-time I am not taxed in Thailand
@@user-gr2bb4jm7g on US social security payments this is correct
Thank you, very useful. What does it mean to "bring income into Thailand"? Move money into a Thai bank account? If I buy a property using wire transfer from my home country where the income is accrued to the seller Thai account, does this trigger "bring into" event? Also, if I pay with credit card?
Hi, thanks for the kind words. Generally it has been interpreted that 'brought into Thailand' is money deposited into a Thai bank account, or money spent in Thailand. So using foreign funds to purchase a Thai property, or even something more minor like withdrawing cash from a Thai ATM, can be seen as bringing money into Thailand.
Credit card payments have always been a grey area which I've had conflicting advice from consultants on and unfortunately no clarity yet from the Thai authorities. Technically you're not remitting anything when you spend, you're accruing debt - and when you pay the bill there's an argument that you're remitting funds to your credit card provider which is presumably outside of Thailand. That said, the funds eventually enter Thailand to whatever merchant you paid, so the conservative approach may be to assume this is eventually seen as a Thai remittance.
@@WorldTaxAndy Ugh as always everything is complicated. And how will they know which money is spent from savings accounts and which from income? Technically that means that any amount spent, even transferring from your savings account, means it will be taxed? Because at some point of time you earned this money in the past. Even if one's intention is to "simply" transfer from savings to a Thai account, retirees for example, when one wrongly assumes it's not gonna be taxed but it will. Or I'm missing something?
@@JS-fd5oh Indeed money is fungible so 'identifying' specific units has always been an issue from a Thai perspective. And generally all savings were income at some point.
Broadly what I see most do to keep records clean is have a note of all your previous post-tax income. So lets say you earned $20k in the US, and have $15k after paying taxes. You can safely spend $15k in Thailand knowing this can be demonstrated to be savings.
Or perhaps you only earned $10k and did not pay tax because of the low tax bracket - again if you could show a tax return demonstrating you declared this cash somewhere then you can evidence it's savings. This will be the case for many retirees where tax is withheld at source or they have to declare their pensions in a tax return.
@@WorldTaxAndy Thank you for your time and detailed explanations. I briefly read Section 40 and it's overwhelming. My main concern with your examples is that Section 40 doesn't say about any exclusions of taxes I already paid and how keeping records will help at all. In fact, it's contrarily states this:
- Assessable income is income of the following categories *including* any amount of tax paid by the payer of income or by any other person on behalf of a taxpayer.
For example, in US majority are employed on W-2 and taxes are automatically deducted from each paycheck. Logically it falls into this *including* definition which means it will be taxed?
I'm not a lawyer and maybe some terminology means different things in that world, but it is very confusing.
And in the end it's still not clear if Thailand will tax this income again or not :(
@@JS-fd5oh No problem, so this is where the Double Tax Treaty comes into play.
The local tax law will never discuss taxes paid in other countries, thats what the DTT is for. Broadly, this will assign ‘taxing rights’ to one country or another. You’ll have to check your specific income source to determine which country has the right to taxation. But in general when your country has a DTT in place you don’t have to worry about double taxation.
For example, under the US Thai DTT, US retains taxing rights over pensions. Thus Thailand is not able to tax this.
What is the taxes percentage Thai government is looking at? Is there a scale on dollar amount a minimum or a maximum?
Hi Jimmy, see the Thai income tax rates in the link below.
taxsummaries.pwc.com/thailand/individual/taxes-on-personal-income
The first 150k baht is tax free, for the next 150k you pay 5% on it, and so on. The maximum is 35%, but this is only on earnings above 5m baht. Note you only pay the 35% on the earnings above 5m - you wouldn't pay 35% on all your income (I see people get worried about this all the time).
Regards Foreigners living in Thailand 180 days ... RETIREMENT VISAS ..Thailand Tax Code Sect 40 Assesable Income includes PENSION ..so if you don't pay income tax in your home country Thailand rule change will tax your foreign pension... But Retirees do not have THAILAND TAX IDENTIFICATION NUMBER... So how will Thailand Gov send you notice to submit foreign income PENSION for taxation ? (Americans will be excluded because IRS has taxation rights)
Hi, yes you correctly point out that many countries don’t have double tax agreements for pensions meaning Thai could have taxing rights
This is something I’d expect we get further guidance on - since so many retirees have been demanding clarity
The thing is, the latest change doesn’t impact Section 40 - this has always been the law. But Thailand has never chased this retirement income despite this. So my personal opinion (and take with a grain of salt because I can only speculate right now) is that they won’t start to do it now. Why? Mainly because of cost. They are resource constrained and honestly most expat retirees just don’t have enough money to make it worth their while. The Thai revenue will have their eyes on the bigger fish. Realistically how much can they raise from say a British retiree who earns £10k pension? Maybe £1.5k in tax at most? The juice just isn’t worth the squeeze for them, so I personally wouldn’t be too worried.
As I said I can only speculate but this is how I see it for now before we get any more clarity
@@WorldTaxAndy Andy what is your business email contact for tax advice?
@@WorldTaxAndy Well that is not an unreasonable conclusion, however... If THAILAND announces it will commence advising Tax Revenue Department which Foreigners are 180 days in Thailand ITS GAME ON AND THE THAILAND TAX REVENUE DEPARTMENT WILL BE SENDING LETTERS TO YOUR REGISTERED HOME ADDRESS
@@thebanccapphi you can contact me via my company’s email advisers@degenwealth.com
@@thebanccappfor sure, so I guess its all about how hard Thailand enforces this all - interesting times ahead..!
I frankly don't have understood if we have or not to pay the taxes to this country!! So example I send money from bank account abroad jn my thai bank account, should I pay the taxes??!!!
Hi, it depends on what that money is. If its savings / income that you previously paid tax on, then you don't have to worry about transferring it to Thailand.
So are you stating that as a retiree from the UK, my miserly state pension which NEVER GOES UP is going to be taxed in Thailand ?
My understanding* is that if your UK pension is under the personal allowance of GBP12,500:
www.google.com/search?q=uk+tax+brackets&rlz=1C1CHBF_enTH851TH851&oq=UK+tax+&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUqBwgDEAAYgAQyBggAEEUYOTIHCAEQABiABDIHCAIQABiABDIHCAMQABiABDIHCAQQABiABDIHCAUQABiABDIHCAYQABiABDIHCAcQABiABDIHCAgQABiABDIHCAkQABiABNIBCjE0NjU2ajBqMTWoAgCwAgA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
and you have no other income in UK, then you would pay tax on the amount above the lowest threshold of Thai taxation: THB150,000 pa. GBP12,500 is THB432,000 at today's rate, so the Thai tax rate of 10% would apply (on any funds over THB150,000 brought into Thailand).
* I am not an accountant, let alone a tax accountant, so I could be off by a country mile.
Hi, UK pensions in Thailand have always been a grey area. The UK / Thai Double Tax Treaty (written in 1981 so this has been the case for over 40 years) unfortunately doesn't have a specific provision for pensions other than government pensions, so we've always been left a bit in the dark on this.
Now an approach I've seen most take is simply declare pension in UK self assessment as UK sourced income anyway, and assume that Thailand simply won't come after this. Technically speaking this has always made me slightly uncomfortable because if we read the actual Thai tax code & DTT it should be that Thailand is where the pension is declared & the UK where property income is declared (all assuming you spend > 180 days in Thailand). But in practice, I've yet to see any expats run into issues with assuming the UK source treatment of their pension to hold.
Ultimately I wouldn't worry because Thailand has had over 40 years to come after UK pension earners and they haven't done so. The new rules change nothing from this perspective. The tax bounty they could get from UK pension recipients is so low that I highly doubt their revenue department will spend time & resources on this.
@@WorldTaxAndy Thanks Andy. Unfortunately when the specifics are unclear even experts like yourself (understandably) can also only speculate what Thai RD will or will not do. It's this uncertainty which is the greatest cause for concern, as it impacts on people to varying degrees. Anyway, I shall "wait & see", and hope those with influence can bring some sanity to bear on the RD person who made this announcement, highlighting the knock on effect in so many areas, like visas (for non Thais), the property market, and the Thai economy in general.
Thank you for your video . I have subscribed to your channel. I do have a couple of questions if you could clarify. I have a non O 12 mth married visa. I do not live in Thailand full time as yet. Still working in Australia but commute once a mth for a week. I transfer money monthly from my aus bank to my wifes thai bank so she can pay the bills and care for the kids. Is that money taxable by thai authorities ?
If my wife and i have a dual name thai savings account and i send money from aus to that account for the purposes of savings , will this be taxed ?
And lastly if i send money from aus to my thai account , will this be taxed ?
Thank you for your time. Paul
Hi Paul, thanks for the kind words. If you're working in Aus then presumably you have tax taken from you at source in Aus, meaning you have nothing to worry about. Your net income will be savings which you're free to do with as you want - you can send this to you wife in Thailand without any tax concerns. Similarly in your dual named savings account this won't be taxed, and same with your Aus to Thai account - no tax. In order to keep evidence that you've earned the cash & paid tax on it in Aus, it would be good if you could hold onto payslips or any other documentation you might have in relation to your employment
@@WorldTaxAndy
I can not thank you enough for your direct and accurate responses. Your a breath of fresh air. There is so much misinformation circulating. I will be retiring in 5 years time to live full time in Thailand. I understand things could change in the future ref laws. Given I do not have rental properties or the like in aus that will generate income in the future my income will be from the savings I accumulate and my superannuation , will I need to pay tax on any of that when brought into Thai from aus bank. At this stage do I have to apply for a Thai tax number etc. I like to think ahead and prepare. My wife has a aus bank account as well. If she was to move money from aus to her bkk bank after my retirement would she have to pay tax on it as she is Thai.
Thankyou
No problem at all Paul glad to help. In all likelyhood the superannuation will be taxed at source in Australia regardless of where you live, and due to the double tax treaty, won't be taxed in Thailand. However, 5 years is a long time and who knows what can change, the tax world seems to be becoming more volatile and changeable, so its worth just keeping an eye on the changing landscape. On your wife's side so long as its savings from Aus and not taxable income she's generating your wife should not pay tax on this@@paulshonberg8231
What if you have an online business outside of thailand, and the money goes into a foreign bank, does that still work?
Hi, this can still work in terms of avoiding Thai taxation. The remittance basis is still in place, meaning that profits need to come into Thailand before assessable to tax.
@@WorldTaxAndy Thanks!
I am a 57 yo retired American who receives a US UNTAXABLE VA RATING, so that's understandable NOT TAXED by the Thai government because it is untaxed by the US government, correct?
Also, I owner financed the sale of my home, and I am paid monthly by the buyer. In essence, I'm the buyer's bank, so to speak. My question is, how is that monthly income labeled? Would it be considered a savings that I just 'pull out' monthly?
Great video. Thank you.
Thank you for the kind words.
US has taxing rights to the VA rating so whatever they say goes. So yes you are right.
On the sale of the home, this sounds like an 'instalment sale' for US tax purposes. It depends where the home is. If its US, there could be some capital gains due on this on the US side, but if these were paid, then taking this cash into Thailand would be like taking in savings.
@@WorldTaxAndy Thank you. I am in the process of lining up my move hopefully mid 2024. I am going to need assistance setting up a Thai cooperation as well. You will have a new client.
Once again, thank you.
I’m in the same boat. I’m 100% VA and also receive a SSDI income that’s not taxable. Thanks for the question.
Sounds like to avoid getting hit is to not stay longer than 180 days in that year. Which many people with many other options will agree that this new thai hussle is so not worth it, in any shape, size, or form.
Hi, many thanks for the video,
I'm still confused 😕 🤔🤣,
Can I ask you a question,
I pay tax in the UK. On my income, will Thailand tax me again, and will I need to prove I've paid tax, many thanks
Hi thanks for the comment and understood on the confusion, the UK side of things has always been trickier (at least for retirees) due to the Double Tax Agreement not explicitly mentioning state & private pensions.
It all depends on your UK income. For example: Property income - No problem, as this is directly covered in the DTT - UK gets taxing rights so no changes there. Thailand can't tax this.
Pension income: strictly speaking, this has been a bit of a grey area (Note: the new rules don't change anything here this has always been the case with UK pensions in Thailand).
The reason its grey is because the DTT (which was written in 1981, so in theory this position has stood for over 40 years) unfortunately doesn't have a specific provision for pensions other than government pensions, so we've always been left a bit in the dark on this. Now an approach I've seen most take is simply declare pension in UK self assessment as UK sourced income anyway, and assume that Thailand simply won't come after this. Technically speaking this has always made me slightly uncomfortable because if we read the actual Thai tax code & DTT it should be that Thailand is where the pension is declared & the UK where property income is declared (all assuming you spend > 180 days in Thailand). But in practice, I've yet to see any expats run into issues with assuming the UK source treatment of their pension to hold.
But regards proving anything to the Thai government, you won't have to show anything proactively. If you file a Thai tax return, this is self assessed. You declare what you believe to be true. In a worst case scenario they may look into your affairs and ask for proof - they generally accept a UK Self Assessment tax return as evidence that your income has been subject to tax in the UK.
Many Many thanks 😁
Thank you so much for taking the time to answer my question👍🤘
My UK based expat bank requested tax ID in my resident country, I didn`t have one, apparently only required if I spent 165 days in country per annum, I retired in September and have been resident here now more than 165 days, so went to the Tax office in Phuket and requested a TIN number, they refused at first saying not required, I explained my UK government pension, and two workplace pensions are paid directly into my thai bank monthly (for past 6 years), they then requested a full bank statement from Jan 23 to Dec 23 and to complete a personal tax form, and take to them in Jan 24, (they issued me with a tax TIN number), based on the figures I gave them from Jan to Sept 23, they estimated the tax I would have to pay for 2024, but I am a UK citizen and my pensions are taxed at source by the UK, I also complete a UK Tax return each year, but they informed I will still need to pay tax, so my understanding then is I should not pay tax on my pensions here ?, I understand that I should be paying thai tax, in particular that I now have a thai TIN so how do you get the UK and the other pensions companies not to tax me in the UK and then let the thai authorities tax me instead. ? Is this something they do or I do ? appreciate if you could clarify actions needed to be taken.
Hi, I've seen a number of Brits do this with their pension providers - they basically prove their new residence (address, TIN, bank account or whatever else they can provide) and inform them that pension should no longer be taxed at source. Generally, this should be straightforward for most companies to do. This would simplify your situation because you could then solely do a Thai tax return (assuming you have no other UK sourced income).
Thank you Andy, will let you know how I get on, as you say would certainly simplify Things.@@WorldTaxAndy 🙂
@@WorldTaxAndy why would anybody on a pension chose to pay thai tax only? The tax free allowances in Thailand are a lot lower, eg £12,570 uk pension "0" UK tax, but ฿50,000 upwards based on the thai system???????
@@stevebomonster this is true that in many cases you might end up worse off, but the numbers for most retirees aren't usually significant. As an example, the max state pension in the UK (£10,600), after factoring the standard allowances & exemptions, will typically end up in a THB tax liability of 8,700 or about £195. I think some are happy to pay this for peace of mind in Thailand. But conversely, I've seen no one run into any issues doing it the other way around i.e only a UK tax return. Unfortunately the lack of a provision for pensions in the UK Thai Double Tax Treaty means we've always been left a bit in the dark as to who actually has taxing rights. But whichever way you do it seems to go unchallenged because, when you look at the numbers involved, they're usually so insignificant that I doubt the Thai tax authorities see the juice being worth the squeeze, when there's much better low hanging fruit out there (e.g high net worth business owners with significant investments around the world). Of course lack of enforcement should not form the basis of anyone's tax strategy, but it's important to understand the practicalities
Finally somebody who provided accurate information, but commentors still don't understand all who stay in Thailand 280 fays will owe taxes in Thailand and complete a thai tax return.
what's the definition of 'UK-sourced' in relation to Cryptocurrency income and capital gains?
In most cases, crypto is not considered to be UK sourced if you're not a UK tax resident. However, there's a few unique cases where it could be:
Trading Income - if you're trading crypto via a UK company or UK permanent establishment then this can be taxable in the UK.
Capital Gains - whilst generally Capital gains are only considered UK-sourced if they're physically located in the UK (i.e a UK company or property), the gain could still be taxable if the asset (i.e crypto) is owned by a UK company branch or permanent establishment.
Mining - income from mining would be UK source if there's actual mining taking place at a physical crypto mining base in the UK.
But for most people who simply own crypto as an individual, move abroad and then cash out capital gains, generate staking rewards etc, they won't have UK sourced income.
@@WorldTaxAndy great response. Thank you
Hi Andy, in your video you talk about 'savings income'. I don't understand what this term means. Savings is generally not income. The money in my US savings account may have been income at some time (maybe 20 years ago), but once it's in my savings account I don't view it as 'income' and neither does the government.
So, let's say I have a pension of $5K/month. I pay taxes on that to the US and I put the rest into my savings account. Then I bring that money into Thailand. The Thai government views foreign pension income as taxable income. I think you are saying that since it came from my savings account, it's 'savings income' so it is exempt, but isn't this money 'pension income' which is not exempt? When exactly does taxable 'pension income' become non-taxable 'savings income'. I don't understand this distinction... thanks, Bob
Hi Bob, thanks for the comment. Indeed savings are not income - in this part I was addressing a common question I'm getting, people have asked me about 'savings income' because they're worried bringing savings into Thailand will now become taxable. I worded this a bit clumsy, I should have been clearer when explaining this section, indeed savings and income are two entirely different things. In most cases savings were income at some point in time, but were likely subject to tax and you're now free to do with it as you choose without worrying about further income tax consequences. From this perspective, you shouldn't worry about any savings of this type when it comes to bringing this into Thailand.
On the pension, yes Thailand does view foreign pension as taxable. However - the US also views your pension income as taxable as a US citizen. Hence, we have a potential dispute over taxing rights. The US / Thailand double tax treaty is the agreement to help avoid double taxation between the countries - so this what's used to help us when we have a conflict over taxing rights. Within that you'll see that it's the US that has taxing rights over your pension, thus this won't be taxable in Thailand.
@@WorldTaxAndy Very clear answer! Thank you so much, Bob
@@robertsultan2550 hi Bob ,.. thanks again for the great videos you put out on applying for an evisa ,.. you’ve been very helpful with your videos ,.. I’m heading over to Phuket in two weeks !
@@johnmellyn2700 Hi John, I just spent the day at the north end of Patong Beach. Just beautiful. The sand and sea are waiting for you... have a great trip over!... Bob
@WorldTaxAndy what are your thoughts on the news this week of the proposed "Global Tax" on people staying over 183 days, even if they don't remit the funds into Thailand? This is completely different than your accessible income argument. As an elite visa holder, this concerns me. Please make a new video when you have enough research done. Thank you
Hi, thanks for the question and I’m quite alarmed by this because it would rip apart so many plans people have put in place based on the current rules. For now it seems to be conjecture & speculation but often in Thailand it seems there’s no smoke without fire. This would be extremely dramatic and bring Thailand into line with most Western countries (ie taxing residents on all worldwide income). If the story is true, I’m concerned that its coming from pressure from external forces like the OECD. Its also strange timing given it was only last year the latest set of new rules were announced, which were pretty significant themselves. Typically you wouldn’t expect to see such drastic measures introduced so close together. I’ll keep digging on this and try & get as much insight from across my network in Thailand as I can because this is going to be extremely important for people in your position, or which there’s thousands now
@@WorldTaxAndythanks you so much. would be shocked if this is true. I would be extremely disheartened if they voided the double tax treaties that are in place with 61 nations. With the treaties in place, it would only be targeting those living a 0% tax life.
@@mlgneo2855 Don't worry at all on Double Tax Treaties - this is a separate issue. What is being rumoured is changing Thai local tax law to make it on a worldwide basis, but this still means that you'd be covered by Double Tax Treaties if you were taxed elsewhere (in a country which has a DTT with Thailand). So yes its the people living 0% tax at the moment who will likely be hit if this does come to pass.
(double tax treaties virtually never get ripped up - and the process of doing is extremely long and drawn out, because DTTs are more wide ranging than just tax, they're basically a form of international trade deal and these involve multiple layers of negotiations between governments. Thailand would have no incentive to do this, especially given they have 61 of these treaties). Unless they planned to be a North Korea-esque hermit kingdom, but hopefully that isnt on the cards any time soon... :)
My sole source if income are pensions which are taxed in Canada. These funds are transferred monthly to Thailand. As a non -resident Canadian I am also taxed on the same amounts as I now live in Thailand. Did you say pension income is subject to the new/revised/updated Thai taxation laws? Thanks for your help
Hi Ted, under the Canada / Thailand Double Tax Treaty, its Canada that gets to tax your pension income. So if this is what is currently happening, then there's no changes for you.
All income is subject to this rule change, but, given you were already receiving money monthly (and not delaying transferring it for a year) then I don't expect anything to change for you.
@@WorldTaxAndy Thanks again for your concise and prompt response.
Ted, Suggest your CPA file a Non resident Section 217 Canadian tax return.
again, thanks very much for this information. I had no idea about Section 217.@@chrave1956
they should try taxing all the bars girls and street food sellers.
So if I earn capital gains from New Zealand or Singapore and I lodge a tax return at a rate if 0% means that it has been run through the tax system, and if I then send it to Thailand it has effectively been ‘taxed’ at the source rate. Thailand will still want in on that without doubt.
Hi, yeah this is a good question. Firstly it would depend on the respective double tax treaties Thailand has with those countries. For some assets, Thailand will not have taxing rights under the treaties. In those cases you shouldn't be taxed in Thailand. But it depends on the assets in question and the contents of the treaties.
Historically people have not had to worry about this because they've usually used the '+1' exemption to keep on the safe side (ie just deferred taking it into Thailand for a year). But with that being removed, it does make these gains potentially taxable in Thailand thus raising questions on what Thailand will actually enforce here.
Step #1: Check to see if there is a TAX TREATY between your country and Thailand... if so, check to see if your "income" is taxable by Thailand. Many times income earned and taxed in your home country is exempt from taxation by Thailand.
Yes this is true if both Thailand & your country have a claim to that income under their domestic law. In many cases the tax treaty will cover income already taxed which is why most people shouldn't be too concerned about these changes.
That said, you should also check if your home country still has the right to tax your income under their domestic law. In some cases, they don't.
clear and concise however I still didn't understand it lol...if you are an Aussie with a defined pension of $80k you are paying tax in Australia fortnightly, I am not certain however I pay tax only in Thailand,I would like to as I think the rate would be smaller
Hi thanks for the comment and apologies if I've added any confusion! On that income level in Australia the tax paid will actually be similar to the tax paid Thailand. Nevertheless, under the double tax treaty, if you're Thai tax resident and its a private pension, it should be declared in Thailand rather than Australia. So technically Aus should stop taking tax from you at source.
However, if Aus keeps taxing you (and you find they won't allow you to get your gross income without tax at source) you can claim this as a 'credit' against your Thai tax bill - in most cases this leads to no tax in Thailand.
@@WorldTaxAndy perfect thanks Andy for taking the time to reply. Have a wonderful day, it appears depending on the Thai tax rate vs the Aussie tax rate, one could actually be better off letting the Thai's take it
If I transfer $10,000 AUD to my Thai bank, how can anyone prove or disprove where the 10k is from, saving, taxable, pension, rent from property - its just a transfer from Wise to Thai account.
Yes, this would appear to be the most important question to address, thank you!
Hi, indeed this is an area where enforcement is likely difficult.
But in theory they can ask you whether this was subject to tax in the past - and you may have to provide payslips, tax returns (from other countries), rental agreements with tenants etc.
Note, if it WASN'T subject to tax in the past, but you were not Thai tax resident at that time - Thailand doesn't care, because they don't have a right to tax income when you were not Thai tax resident.
But if it wasn't subject to tax AND you were a Thai tax resident AND you brought that cash into Thailand, then they could ask you to settle an income tax liability on this.
There's definitely an element of this being theoretical because in practice would they go this far? You have to look at it from the perspective of the Thai tax authority - they're an agency tasked with raising as much tax from taxpayers as possible with limited resources. They have to be efficient and target the big fish where they can. Which is why in the vast majority of cases, expats - particularly retirees - tend to get left alone.
But lack of enforcement isn't a great defence strategy because you should always be prepared in a worst case scenario, so it would be important just to have evidence together as to the income sources you had when you were Thai tax resident so you always have backup.
@@WorldTaxAndy ALL $$ in my Aust bank account has been subject to AUS Tax - almost impossible to get tax free $$ into any account, which is main my point. $$ in a Bank account does not have serial number like a bill - totally impossible to tell where and $$ sent from OS originated from.
Great Video, now subscribe, thanks. I am Interested also how the authorities can prove where the transfers originated from when using WISE. If you are a retiree for example and you are using WISE to transfer your funds into Thailand, are you a Thai tax resident if you are holding a Retirement Visa ? Will authorities check visa status and exempt expats holding a retirement visa from being taxed (most retiree's income will be taxed from home country) ? Also what if the WISE transfers are small amounts, will authorities be interested ? or will they focus on large WISE transfers ? @@WorldTaxAndy
@@pfb161 In your case if you've been subject to Aus tax already the double tax treaty should provide you protection in most cases. Although important to double check the treaty sections specific to your income sources. And yes money is fungible so we can never identify specific units - all we can do is provide evidence of our previous income, tax paid (if any), etc. If all your income has previously been subject to tax, then there's no real headache because in effect all of your saved bank account cash is post-tax thus you can move this. It would be more of a headache for people who have some income that's been subject to tax, and some that hasn't - accounting for this would be the hard part.
With the panic going on here in Thailand at present this vlog is a breath of fresh air. The scare Mongers can put their tin foil hats back in their mother's basement.
Thank you for your positive words of wisdom. 99% of retired expats have nothing to worry about. Thai citizens on the other hand! Yes they definitely have.
Thanks for the kind words! "99% of retired expats have nothing to worry about." This is probably as succinct & accurate a summary as you can get! Fully agreed. I do admit since making this video I've been quite surprised at the reaction from retirees, they seem to be more concerned than they need to be. But fear sells, I've no doubt some media sources are happy to stir up a little hysteria for clicks!
Sorry, you are incorrect. Read the Thai Tax Code carefully.
@@chrave1956 you scare Mongers make me laugh. If I was a Thai multi millionaire living in London or New York I would have be worried.
Good clarification! It's about what I was expecting. I lived here in Thailand in the early 1980's and had to pay tax here as Sweden didn't have any agreement with Thailand about double taxation at that time. This time I'm not worried.
@@EastAsianExpatRentals As I see it this will not effect most of the foreigners in Thailand. This 180 days rule for tax liability is more than 40 years old. But if you have income in another country that you don't pay tax for, in that country, it might be a different story. Sweden has an agreement with Thailand now about double taxation. As I have to pay all tax in Sweden I shouldn't pay tax here in Thailand. As I have to much ecenomical connection with Sweden I have to pay tax there according to the Swedish tax law. It doesn't matter where in the world I live as long as I am a Swedish citicen. About ten years ago I applied for paying tax here in Thailand istead of Sweden (lower tax here) but the Swedish tax authorities refused to accept that. The fact that I'm living in Thailand and married here didn't matter at all.
So, in conclution, I believe the Thai government is tightening up the rules so noone (Thai or foreigner) will be able to bring money into Thailand and not pay tax anywhere for the money. You eather has to pay tax in the country where you earned the money, or in Thailand. This is how I have understood it
Hi Andy fantastic video btw !
Ive got an elderly mate living in rural Thailand who is very worried about all this. He only has a relatively small UK state pension (frozen for the last 12 or so years) and a small UK teaching pension. Based on several years teaching work. Im not even sure he hits the tax threshold in the UK.
This is his sole income/assets .
Does he have anyrhing to worry about ?
Hi thanks for the kind words.
He shouldn't worry. This new rule change doesn't actually impact most pensioners because they typically weren't benefiting from the "+1" rule (ie the fact that income earned in one year used to be tax free if brought into Thailand the following year).
Further, UK state pension is UK sourced income and subject to UK tax (this includes even if no tax is paid due to personal allowance threshold). Further, UK teaching pension is likely to be covered as governmental service under the UK / Thai double tax treaty, meaning again Thailand does not have taxing rights here.
The prevailing message that seems to be going around at the moment among advisors is that this is trying to target elite wealth Thais who live abroad more than anyone, particularly with assets in the $millions. Of course this is part speculation but it would stand to reason.
@@WorldTaxAndy thank you for the excellent advice. I'm in the Philippines myself but this would make sense. Most expats spend money and boost the Thai/Filipino economies, far in excess I would suggest of any negative effects arising. Relevant governments are surely aware of this and last thing they want is an exodus of high spending foreign retirees
Just a rider question to this Andy, there seems to be sone discussion that if you are assessed for 0% tax in the UK, you may be liable even under double tax treaties, to pay the difference in Thailand, so 35% Thai - 0% UK = 35% tax payable in Thailand.
Clearly this would involve huge bureaucracy . And like I say many expats would simply leave, and go to Philippines or wherever.
Have you any thoughts on this ?
@@lolat330 This is a theoretical possibility depending on the income source. When its explicit that only one country has primary taxing rights per the double tax treaty, then there is no such thing as 'topping up' the difference. The purpose of a DTT is to ensure that the income is not taxed twice, not to guarantee that it is taxed at the higher rate of the two countries.
For example, lets say its clear that governmental service or UK property income is taxed in the UK only per the DTT - then there should be no concern on the Thai side because when a conflict arises between the provisions of a DTT and domestic tax law, generally the provisions of the DTT take precedence
However, with income that does not explicitly assign taxing rights to the UK (lets say private pensions or certain types of investment income) then you would have to consider the possibility that tax withheld in the UK may have to be 'topped' up in Thailand assuming the Thai tax rate is higher.
Note that the 35% rate in Thailand would only apply to income above 5,000,000 Baht annually
I’m still a bit confused about my situation. I’m about to buy an elite visa (old pricing). I have some savings that I can live off for the next year or so.
I’m a freelance web designer and my earned income will go into my UK bank account and I planned to pay tax on it.
If I transfer what would be savings (money that I’ve already paid tax on) into my Thai bank account, would that mean I don’t need to pay tax again on it? Would I only liable for Thai tax if I’m sending earnings as I get it straight into my Thai account?
A quick update, I put £30,000 into a UK income tax calculator and you’ll walk away with about £24,500. I did the same with a Thai income tax calculator and you’ll keep £26000 (rounded up figures).
Unless I’m doing something very wrong. You’ll save money by paying taxes in Thailand.
@@dave3k Hi, in terms of earned income this will highly depend on (1) whether you are a UK tax resident and (2) whether you sourced the income from UK e.g you worked in the UK for some of the time you generated the income.
If neither apply you shouldn't pay UK tax. So you'd then check if you're Thai tax resident and if so declare your income (earned) there. Your savings would not be counted as income.
And yes the Thai tax rates aren't bad, there's a lot of exemptions & reliefs so you end up getting a reasonably fair deal in my view
@@WorldTaxAndy Yeah all my savings are from UK based earnings.
So aside from expenses, there's some exemptions and reliefs that would benefit a self-employed person?
@@dave3k the first 150k is tax free & you also get a 60k personal allowance. and then the tax rates go up gradually (only 5%, 10% and 15%) below 750k. Compared to the UK where you immediately get taxed at 20% once you exceed personal allowance. So all this can make it more favourable than the UK, depending on income levels. Also you can get relief for life insurance, health insurance etc in certain circumstances
@@WorldTaxAndy That's pretty damn reasonable. For arguments sake let's say my earnings are 1,000,000 baht in a year. I can calculate the income tax on the remaining 790,000?
F~~~!!!! this sucks, that changes a lot of things. If Thailand gonna tax me on my income coming in are they gonna give me local prices or falang prices for buying apartments or going to hospital? got to move elsewhere, if its gonna be taxed might as well move to vietnam or indonesia.
Let’s say I earn (salary) income in Estonia in 2023, I put it in my saving in Europe. I send my funds from my savings to a Thai bank account , will this be taxed in Thailand ?
Hi, it first depends if you're tax Thai resident (generally by spending > 180 days in Thailand in a calendar year). If you are, then they can potentially tax your income. If its already been taxed, then you'd have to check the Double Tax Treaty between Thailand and the source country to see who has the rights to tax the income. From looking at the Estonia / Thai DTT its all about where you are tax resident so most likely Thailand in this case.
@@WorldTaxAndy my company is Estonia based , 50% ownership , with British partner , I am U.S citizen , looking to live in Thailand fulltime , I am assuming it would be Thailand for tax resident but some liability in US. Estonia doesn’t tax income , in this case since I am just an e resident .
@@stack7379 Okay in this case, your only potential tax obligations would be the US (due to your citizenship) and Thailand (due to residency).
You would most likely pay income taxes in Thailand, and your Thai tax paid would act as a credit against your US income tax liability, meaning in most cases you would have no US tax liability (but it depends on the amount earned).
Additionally, as a US expat you may be able to qualify for the FEIE (generally a tax exemption of the first $112k of earned income)
Do you think Thailand is ready to impose this as of 1st Jan 2024. It seems to me it’s as clear as mud to the Thai authorities who are going to be responsible for implementing this. What about the banks & the mechanisms for assessing & collecting. Do the authorities have the people, offices, computers etc to deal with this & the floods of people & accountants (are there enough of them to go round) wanting clarifications, challenging assessments etc. Are the Thai staff trained in how to give tax credits for tax paid & do they have the templates ready. As it stands we are allowed to bring in $20,000 in cash when we enter Thailand & don’t have to declare it. What about using foreign bank credit cards etc. It seems to me they are totally unprepared & it’s going to take a lot longer than from now to the end of the year to put in place what they need. The PM did announce that further study is needed. Further study when we are only 11 weeks away from it being implemented!!! or could that be code for it being kicked down the road till at least 2025 & if they still go ahead they come up with something simpler & workable. There are a few things they could do. Example give us an allowance of say $50,000 before we become liable for any tax.
Yes for the reasons you illustrate I can see a lot of issues with actual implementation. For a parallel case, I work on a lot of Malaysia issues, and they have similar tax breaks for foreign sourced income (actually much more favourable than Thailand - basically no foreign sourced income is ever subject to tax). However in 2022 they suddenly announced with little warning that foreign sourced income was suddenly going to become taxable - which drew a huge backlash from investors, retirees etc. As a result they U-turned on the policy and effectively kicked the can down the road until 2027. I would not be surprised if we saw something similar here
@@WorldTaxAndy There are other channels that say Thailand is late to the party &/or it is to catch wealthy Thai’s who to date have been avoiding tax by parking their money offshore for a year. I don’t buy this. The Philippines only tax foreign income being brought in on Filipino Citizens not Expats & Thailand could do the same if they wanted. Malaysia you already mentioned. Cambodia does have laws to tax foreign income being brought in including pensions but it’s not enforced. Laos like Vietnam are communist & don’t do retirement visas. Vietnam does have laws to tax foreign income being brought in but I got no idea how it works in practice & Laos only taxes income made in Laos & not foreign income coming in. So unless Thailand do a U-Turn & with the possible exception of Vietnam the only Country named above were Tax Resident Expats in reality will have to pay tax on foreign income will be Thailand. Then there is the question of entitlement as a tax payer as tax pays for services including Thailand Government Healthcare Schemes so will we as tax payers be given access to these services the same as Thai’s or will be denied. As we are not Citizens we are never 2nd Class Citizens but as tax payers it would be Blatant Discrimination if we was denied. Thailand’s social security fund entities those with sufficient credits certain benefits such as pension, sick pay etc & the same people who are also working for private companies & paying tax access to the SHI Healthcare Scheme. This also includes Expats who are legally working in Thailand & paying Social Security & Income Tax. The only difference is Expats pay higher charges than Thai’s & other ASEAN Nationals for any healthcare not covered in the scheme & what Thai’s refer to as Extras which can things like a private room or treatment at hospital other than the one you are allocated without a referral letter. So are those working legally in Thailand & paying tax on Thailand sourced income going to carry on having access to the SIH Healthcare Scheme while those who pay income tax on overseas income they bring in be denied access the same as Thai’s to UCS Healthcare scheme & have Health Insurance as compulsory requirement for certain types of visas they stay on.
Thailand’s loss is Philippines’ gain
But the philuplines is now the no.1 fastest growing economy will become ecpensive in thr future. Bsd for expats.
No mention of pensions being taxed.Also in your next video stop rocking back and forward 😊
So savings will not be taxed by Thailand but dividends will be taxed even if you wait 1 year before taking it into Thailand. What is savings if not an income that has been saved?
Hi, savings would be any of your income which is free for you to do with what you want without worrying about income tax implications. For example, lets say an American receivess $20,000 in business income to his bank account. But hasn't paid any taxes yet. This isn't $20k savings because it's not been reported for taxes yet, he'll likely have to put a few $k aside for taxes. Lets say he then pays his taxes of $4k. His remaining $16k is savings.
So in most cases savings would mean after paying tax on it (or, at least reporting it somewhere for tax purposes - noting in some cases you don't have to always actually pay tax).
Thailand would generally consider your 'savings' as income IF (1) you were Thai tax resident when you earned it AND (2)Thai tax resident when received it AND (3) had pay no taxes elsewhere on it.
If the dividends were subject to withholding tax in the source country then you'd need to check the double tax treaty, as this may protect you from Thai tax.
In almost all cases, people don't have to worry about savings.
@@WorldTaxAndy So lets consider my situation as a Swedish citizen living full time in Thailand.
According to Swedish laws I don't need to pay tax to Sweden for capital gains from e.g. non Swedish stocks, but I do need to pay tax from Swedish stocks.
Does this mean that Thailand will tax me for profits in non Swedish stocks (since Sweden doesn't) but Thailand will not tax me for profits from Swedish stocks (since Sweden tax that)?
On the Swedish side of things, it's important to first check your tax residency in Sweden. From speaking with Swedes in the past, I understand their tax residency rules are much stricter than others & it can be more difficult to remove your Swedish tax residency. This could put you in a pretty unique position where you retain your Swedish tax residency despite living in Thailand (this would also require confirming with the double tax treaty tiebreaker clause). If this was the case, and I know it can be for many Swedes, then you'd only pay taxes as you normally would in Sweden.
However lets say you are Thai tax resident.
So Thailand does not separate capital gains vs income tax - meaning the treatment is the same as with other income, that is, if it's brought into Thailand, it can be taxable.
So if you profit from non-Swedish stocks & bring this to Thailand, this would be subject to Thai income tax.
On the Swedish stocks side of things, again lets assume you bring this into Thailand thus there's a potential for Thai taxation. This could get a little complicated because it depends on the taxing rights per the double tax treaty. I'm no expert on the Swedish double tax treaties, however from my latest reading it appears likely that Thailand would retain taxing rights, meaning you'd declare these in Thailand. However you'd get a 'credit' for Swedish tax paid on your Thai tax return. Given the Swedish tax rates are higher than Thailand's, this would likely wipe out any Thai liability. But it's just an additional administrative burden
@@WorldTaxAndy I know the Swedish laws in details and basically you can be fully or limited tax resident in Sweden. I have cut my bounds to Sweden and the Swedish tax agency have therefor decided that I am limited taxable in Sweden.
So as limited tax resident in Sweden I do not pay tax on interest rates, capital gains from non Swedish stock (if they were bought after exit) and not on stock funds for example. But for the first 10 years as limited tax resident I do need to pay tax from profits from Swedish stocks and for dividends from all stocks and funds. There are some more details here but this is in short what Swedish law say.
You say: "So if you profit from non-Swedish stocks & bring this to Thailand, this would be subject to Thai income tax. ". Does this mean I only need to pay taxes for that in Thailand if I bring this income into Thailand? What if I only bring in my pension to Thailand which according to the double tax agreement between Sweden and Thailand should only be taxed in Sweden? I.e. if I keep all profits from capital cain in Sweden forever, will Thailand then tax it or not?
Yes, Thailand is still maintaining it's remittance basis of foreign sourced income. Meaning only foreign sourced income that's remitted (brought into Thailand either into a local bank account or spent in Thailand) is taxable.
The only difference with the latest rules is that in the past, non-remitted income earned in one year, could be brought into Thailand the following year, and still pay no tax. Now, its taxed in Thailand once remitted. But in theory, you can keep it out of Thailand forever and not owe Thai taxes.
On the pension, if Sweden has taxing rights then there's also no Thai tax to pay. And yes, keep your gains out of Thailand, and you won't need to pay Thai tax.
The only real caveat here is future uncertainty, this recent rule change is hopefully not an indication of Thailand's direction of travel in terms of moving them towards more aggressive rules. But on this we can only speculate. For now, with the rules as they are, keep the gains out of Thailand and you will not have to worry.
What is the Capital Gains Tax in Thailand
Same rates as ordinary income but there’s a lot of exemptions. PwC has a good summary:
taxsummaries.pwc.com/thailand/individual/income-determination
@@WorldTaxAndy that is a lot on 100 million baht
No mention of social security
Hi, this depends on where your social security is sourced. You'll need to check the double tax treaty of that country. Let's assume its the US, the DTT says:
"social security benefits and other similar public pensions paid by a Contracting State to a resident of the other Contracting State or a citizen of the United States shall be taxable only in the first-mentioned State."
In other words, social security paid by the US to a resident of Thailand will be taxable in the US.
@@WorldTaxAndy thanks. It is US. Until yesterday I did not know other countries used the term social security as well. I am learning a lot.
Can I get the spouse tax allowance as my thai wife has no work. I am serious. May I know the amount for such tax allowance?
Hi, yes it sounds like this is possible in your case. There is a personal allowance of THB 60,000 for the taxpayer (you in this case) and another THB 60,000 for the taxpayer’s spouse i.e your wife (provided that your wife does not file her own return).
Thank you for your info.
Can I still enjoy the below tax exempt 150,000 at the same time?
(In order to support low income earners and the aged, the first THB 150,000 of net income is tax exempt.)
@@kisskiss8579 Yes, correct. the first 150k is taxed at 0%, then you can use your allowances in addition to that. So for single people, effectively the first 210k is tax free, and if married with spouse not completing a tax return, that's 270k.
I relise the devil is in the detail, but as it currently stand and by my caluclaitons on Thai tax tables, my Investment income could cost me somewhere between 70 and 80K per month Tax as a retiree. While I have no problem paying some tax. It is likely to drastically affect my lifestyle in Thailand. For me, the first major expense to cut will be 3 Kids Internation school fees. ( This tax bill represents more than I pay for all 3 kids. There School is already worried about the number of pupils they could loose). This would be closely followed by big ticket items like, new cars and mother-in-laws new house we were planning to build. However, the thing nobody is mentioning is a simple equation. Whatever tax is taken off Retired Expats on fairly fixed incomes is likely to come off there monthly spending budgets which I believe could have huge consiquences for local economies such as Pattaya, Phuket and Hua Hin in low season as people cut back.
Hi Neil, as you said the detail is going to be important - in most cases I've reviewed in detail it has turned out that there will be no additional taxes due, so I hope I'm not adding any additional worries where my intention is the opposite. My overall message is that people should remain calm because in most cases it won't affect them.
However, if you are one of the rare cases where you could be hit by taxes, I think you raise a good point in that Thailand could start to become less attractive place for both retirees & investors - and this in itself may scare them into introductions some relaxations in these latest rules. Someone else raised a point in another video that suggested when Thailand notices the drop in foreign capital deposits into Thailand they'll suddenly revert course on this - we can only speculate, but I would agree that there's likely to be more to come on this.
@@WorldTaxAndy Since I posted this I have been Investigating moving to an LTR Visa ( Specificaly the 10 year wealthy Individual retirment visa via BOI) My Agent Insisted no Tax will be due under this visa and to prove it she has even sent me a section of the royal decree which she says protects LTR Visa holders from paying Income Tax! (It is in Thai) So my question is this correct or is this about to change v the Jan 2024 changes!
@@neilvass6805 Hi Neil thanks for the information, very interesting. I'm no visa expert so not the best to consult on these aspects, however, yes the royal decree approved in February 2022 provides a tax exemption for "income derived from a post or business conducted abroad or arising from assets located abroad that has been brought into Thailand". This is a separate issue from the latest rule change so this wouldn't be impacted by the Jan 24 changes
So let's say I make 10 million baht capital gains from foreign sources but bring only 2 million to Thailand to live happily I only pay taxes on that 2 million?
Essentially yes. Just be sure to keep that 8m out of Thailand - i.e non Thai bank account, and don't spend it in Thailand.
@@WorldTaxAndy thx
@@WorldTaxAndy What about if you sell crypto on Thai Exchange back to a Thai bank account in country?
@@cryptocrusader6078 If it hits a Thai bank account then that's going to be taxable in Thailand. But having it on a Thai exchange won't necessarily make it taxable if you withdraw the cash to a non Thai bank account.
This doesn't really help. There are questions that remain unanswered, or potentially confusing (well to me at least, and maybe others.) When does income become savings? All savings have to be derived from income at some point. If savings are not taxable, then define savings? You mention dividends, but what about capital gains from say property sales, trading of stocks and gold. As a UK citizen, I don't have to own capital from the UK, it could be in the USA, the UAE or anywhere else, all of which have different tax regimes. Up until this story broke, my understandintg was that if the money was not earned in Thailand, or the result of a capital gain in Thailand, then it would not be taxable, but again, when does that gain start being savings?
Hi, indeed the income vs savings distinction is a nuanced one, but savings themselves are rarely defined in any country's tax law - its generally accepted that savings are any cash reserves which are not income (and since we can define income, we can effectively also deduce what is not income).
Implicit to savings is the fact that it was once income, and likely, subject to tax. For example, you earned a salary, paid tax on it, then kept it in your bank account. This would be savings. Moving that money between your own accounts isn't income - that income has already been subject to tax.
Of course if you take your savings and invest into stocks & then receive dividends (or sell for capital gains) you've created some potentially taxable income again. So it's important to understand that nothing is ever 'fixed' as savings forever, what you do with it can still cause tax implications in future.
The capital gains side is trickier. It is correct that capital gains & investment income earned from sources outside Thailand are not taxable unless remitted to Thailand. But the key thing here is that capital gains are considered taxable income therefore you have to be careful on taking this to Thailand. This wouldn't be 'savings' because its defined as income. However it all depends on the source country - where are the assets located? It could be that you have to pay capital gains there & may have protection from the double tax treaty, assuming they have one with Thailand
@@WorldTaxAndy Thank you for the detailed reply, that is very much appreciated. The assumption of savings being taxed already is simply erroneous on many levels and the same can also apply to savings that earn dividends - there are numerous tax free wrappers and systems in various countries, along with tax-free employment. This whole situation that the Thai government is creating is not only absurd but almost unenforceable - they either insist on taxing everything, or nothing, unless specifically earned inside the country. Also, what is defined as "bringing into the counry?" I can use an international bank card from an account outside Thailand to both pay for things and to withdraw cash. I do feel they are doing this to deter people from staying, as they are getting more backlash from their citizens.
No problem. And yes that's an important point on the assumption of savings being taxed - you're right that this isn't strictly required . They don't have to have been taxed but more importantly been 'subject to tax'. So lets say you are UK resident with a £12k personal allowance. You earn £10k thus pay no tax. But perhaps you submitted a tax return which declared this - you can safely prove that your earnings were subject to tax. This is definitely an important point that I see many worry about but this can be cleared up as long as you prove the subject to tax aspect, not necessarily the paying tax. I've seen this brought up in multiple different countries with people who are nomadic including Malaysia, Indonesia, UAE and Singapore. Generally showing them a UK tax return which shows income was subject to tax satisfies them.
But I'd agree with the overall point on enforceability - most interpret 'brought into Thailand' to mean money in a Thai bank account or money from a foreign bank account that has been spent in Thailand / withdrawn from a Thai ATM. Logistically this has always been a bit of a mess though, and whilst many taxpayers do their best to track all of this, I've always wondered how they actually enforce this because I've never seen an example of the Thai Revenue digging through and asking for these types of records. Perhaps the detail isn't what matters and this is all part of a general strategy to deter foreigners coming. Given the timing of this is closely aligned with new stricter & more expensive Thai elite visa requirements, it makes me skeptical about their true aims here
Dear Lucid and Andy, this particular thread between you is brimming with the most important content regarding the key foundational questions to be answered here. Your exchange is absolutely brilliant, especially in it's keeping so tight to the very most relevant points. I cannot thank you enough for this excellent display of such useful brilliance!
@@ValueSeeker1 I think the most important point for anyone reading these responses is to seek advice from an international tax specialist, and not just take things read online as being valid, especially if large sums are involved or potentially in the future. So many people leave their country and travel without either getting advice or realising that they even need it, although until the situation is clarified in more detail by the Thai authorities most tax specialists will probably advise caution and work on the basis that if you are tax resident then you will be exposed to your worldwide income.
So if I’m taxed on my pension in the uk , Thailand will tax me as well when I transfer my money to a Thai bank ?
Hi, no you shouldn't worry about bringing in a UK pension. In almost all cases if you've paid UK tax on this, the tax amount will be a 'credit' against your potential Thai tax and will cover this. I'd like to stress that whilst pensioners seem to be the most concerned group I've seen online, they are the least likely to be affected in my view (I'd say its digital nomads, business owners etc that should be more conscious of these changes).
so what? its the media thats making the confusion!
Indeed, the media is often the key source of confusion & misinformation.
To help u reciprocate Boi Thai advised as holder of global wealthy retiree 10 yr visa holder exempt from taxes 😂 per it's charter grandfather contract hurray big news
As a remote worker I think they better provide a proper way to stay and work here legally before even thinking about taxation. Otherwise it is ridiculous, there is even no any good visa option for me, yet they are already looking at my income.
I mean if they say "Okay - you are a remote worker, here is a visa for you to stay here without any hassle, here is how you declare your income and here is how much tax you have to pay" - brilliant, I'll be happy to do this.
However right now you have to go through a lot of trouble and expenses just to stay here for a year or two, and technically you can't even work remotely (because LTR visa has inadequate requirements, student/tourist/elite visas do not permit work and business visa requires work only inside Thailand). And above that if you overstay even for a day you will be hunted down like a criminal. Yet they are talking about taxes. come on..
Fully agreed. The visa side of things is becoming very difficult & is a headache almost all the remote workers I know are constantly navigating at huge hassle & time cost. I think most would happily pay taxes in exchange for a good long term visa option which could provide some security and clarity. But it just feels thing are going the opposite way at the moment.
Where are you from? Does your country offer a visa for remote workers? Can Thai(or any other nationality) remote workers move to your home country and get a long term visa without any farther requirements? Probably not… Then why should Thailand make an “easy to get” visa for you? Stop crying and behaving as an entitled westerner please.
@@dannmm6745 "Why should Thailand make an "easy to get" visa for remote workers?"
Obviously because this is beneficial for Thailand itself, remote expats do not take any jobs inside the country, they have minimal impact on the infrastructure. Yet they bring money into the country as well as increase the demand for goods and services. This helps Thai people create more jobs and businesses and improves the economy. And above that many expats would be happy to pay taxes given the opportunity to stay here legally long time.
This is not the game of ego talking about "does your country have the same visa or not" this is the game of opportunity: the one who does it first wins.
@@ALandarion So it’s beneficial for Thailand but it isn’t for UK, USA, Australia…?? Are you serious? It amazes me that sense of entitlement. Maybe it’s not as beneficial as you think, maybe you are missing something… Indeed your are missing a lot of things. First of all, just for your information, if you are really an expat you are working for a Thai company, you have a good salary and in that case Thailand already has a visa for you and your company sorted out everything for you. If that’s not the case you are NOT an expat, you are an IMMIGRANT.
Second, If you are a skilled remote worker, you work for a company and you want to live in Thailand I have good news for you. There is also a visa for you… Third, (which is the case of 99% of people who call themselves, “expats” or “remote workers” in Thailand) If you are a cheap charlie, getting a few bucks online and living on your savings, you rent a condo for 400$, pay 2$ for your meals, post photos on instagram as if you were a millionaire but in reality you just spend your time in khaosan road or Nana Plaza drinking cheap beer you are a pain for Thailand and obviously there isn’t a long term/permanent visa for you.
At the end of the day it is the same as in your home country. “Our country, our rules” works everywhere, not only in UK/USA/Australia… do you understand that? think about it…
@@dannmm6745 Well Malaysia, Indonesia, Spain, Portugal and some other countries do offer much more reasonable programs for expats.
You sound like I have personally offended you or something. Hope you have a good day and can chill down a bit.
And just to be clear your assumptions have nothing to do with me or my situation, they tell more about yourself rather than about someone else.
Mate you don't know what you are saying as most countries have a NO DOUBLE TAX AGREEMENT
Thanks for the input. I covered some key aspects of Double Taxation Agreements in this video. Indeed, in many situations, these will protect you from double taxation.
Wrong.
Crypto can help here. You don’t have to store or move money in banks. Crypto solves everyone’s problems. Be your own bank.
and how you convert your cryptos in the batt money for pay in the supermarket or rent??
It's the end of March 2024 and no new taxes. Were you wrong and uninformed?
The new interpretation of the rules came into effect on 1 January 2024. Most expats will likely not be affected, but there will be some that are. The tax filings for 2024 do not happen until 2025, so we won't know about how Thailand implements the rules until then.
There's a tax treaty between Thailand and many countries so until Thailand changes the treaty nothing will change. To say that it will happen in 2025 is a guess at best. @@WorldTaxAndy