Eclipse's seemingly-random interactions actually all share a common factor: Mirage is, canonically, The Biggest Troll, so it's only to be expected that the ability you get from sacrificing her to the pogwall continues to troll in her absence. It's not buggy, it's lore-accurate.
I love how rhino, even as a helminth ability, can be summed up as "it just works." My boi just casually chillin' and still being a top tier frame from day 1
@@timcal2136 That would be because Styanax was designed with the 'simplicity' of frames from when the game was still new in mind. Just added that little bit of sauce from how the game'd evolved since then.
I think the most interesting application of Eclipse is the DR for sure: it makes shield tanking suddenly viable without needing to do funky shield gate shenanigans.
@@clarienne7583 I still dont get why you cant recast all duration based abilities while they are active, you can recast eclipse but not hall of mirrors like, WHY???
Yup, currently fine-tuning my Mag build and I definetly prefer Eclipse over her Polarize + augment. That ability needs to be cast constantly, is slow to reach to enemies, doesn't work on everything and doesn't last long and it NEEDS the augment. Eclipse is just 75% DR that's consistent with an optional augment and benefits your health too to make Toxin less dangerous.
@@gustavosanches3454 Because once upon a time the short window of vulnerability was considered enough of a weakness to allow hilariously overpowered defensive abilities like Mesa's 95% gun DR and Zephyr's complete immunity to bullets. HoM included.
@@RapTapTap69 No, for excel sheet people more data is not a problem it's an excuse to make more excel sheets (ex I have a sheet about what CO does to every weapon, now some sheet goblin will probably just make another page about how eclipse interacts with it)
"...Condition Overload." I audibly groaned. There's nothing more ominous in a Warframe optimization video than mentioning that line of mods. Excellent video, you had me convinced as soon as you mentioned CO.
excellent video, it really comes down to "you want stable predictible damage"(roar) or "maybe you want some defense on the side"(eclipse) i really like quadrupling my EHP on certain frames with the 75% dr, it's nice
Ngl a more interesting comparison is when to use Xata’s over Roar. A video on that would be very appreciated as especially after the bugged interaction with DA being patched, it’s not so cut and dry.
@@TheTundraTerror it still has a separate instance of DA, which is better than just doing a small buff to one. Also because it’s a separate damage instance it’s better for DPS for damage attenuation from what I’ve found. I’d just like to see if there’s any other instances where it’s better
the way I see it now Xata's has better raw damage for things with attenuation like archons and acolytes. roar is for status dps since you want the double dip on DOTs
Always has been. Just look at primed sure footed for example. 100% knockdown immunity still lets 1 in 10,000 get you for some reason. Thats why all status arcanes say 102% immunity chance
I do think it has gotten somewhat better with specific arcanes, like running corrosive/cold on a primary fully investing in crit/multishot, and letting Chroma fill in the base damage.
So, exactly what I've been telling people since before the helminth nerf. They wouldn't believe me then point out someone who only did on hit damage equations. Look who's laughing now
Rhino is the Toyota HiLux of frames, Can fit any weapon needed for your combat objective and just works. side note is why does Warframe's math have to be so complex, at times it feels like nothing about modding is intuitive and it does not help that faction mods for example reflect nothing in the modding UI. If you drop a Serration in there the number gets bigger and you can tell its going to do more hurtin, Drop a bane in there and the number stays the same.
I am not going to lie: this video opened my eyes so much and finally debunked many things my friends call me out on with using CO bonuses on hit-scan/radial attack projectile-weapons, or even Eclipse. I salute you for this glorious eye-opener.
ooo, nice vid. I didn't know about the particulars of eclipse with CO or thrown melee, or the edge case of Nova 2. those are niche enough that Roar is still pretty clearly the pick if you're not literally just trying to get the DR tho.
A minor but notable difference is recasting for shield gates. Eclipse can be recast at the caster's leisure, but Roar requires its augment to do so. Granted any build that wants to shield gate will have abilities that work better than a 25 energy cost buff, but it is an option.
Try this,Hildryn or Harrow with the damage reduction part and adaptation...it is basicly for the most part 99% damage reduction because of shields having 50% the 75% of eclipse and adaptation wild inconsistent numbers,it is so fun to see and play
Still wished they changed it to 90%, amazing for squishy frames if you need to patch in survivability, but only 75% applied to yourself is kinda mid compared to other options for a helminth
Roar scales horribly with strength and even with the nerf to Eclipse on Helminth it's still not that great imo and that's not me saying Roar damage is bad it's just overrated and only good for certain situations
@@hellkaiser1366 Roar is like a faction mod, it will increase the damage of roar status much more, in addition to also increasing the damage of skills that are not exalted weapons
@@theunhingedgamer3762 wtf you talking about? Both have 30% strength lmao roar buff any ability damage and Acts as a faction mod and increases status damage even further, except just the weapon's impact damage
Summary: Roar: Best for an overall damage focus, unless it’s a weird case like Nova’s Antimatter Absorb. Eclipse: Best for if you need an extra DR source for something to be viable, while still being able to give your damage a little kick when the time suits it. Also the best subsume to pair with Nova’s Antimatter Drop
I googled this exact thing 4 hours ago this morning and you make a video about it? I'm living in a personalized simulation based around me playing Warframe for sure.
A pretty good video. Thanks. So, for ProfitTaker it is better to get ecplise for the exodia contagion buff, and just apply roar for everything else. Is that it?
Alternatively, you could just use Rhino and be just as invincible as Revenant, but now you have Rhino's full power roar. Nothing wrong with playing either of them over the other though, it is a game after all, play what you enjoy!
I could do that but I find revenant's mesmer skin to be particularly reliable and the added benefit of temporarily stunning enemies allows me to farm headshots to charge incarnon weapons
@@conorb.1901 Sp enemies over level 600+ just one shot rhino he's no where close to revenant who is literally immortal unless you don't play and forgot to press one button
@thesaltyone4400 that's arguable. Rhino's Iron Skin (and Nezha's halo) scale off of enemy damage during their invincibility period. So if you click iron skin in a big group of strong enemies and let them shoot you for a few seconds, you'll have millions of iron skin without even trying. It's also not that difficult to keep it up either, as Reinforcing Stomp is a fantastic augment and also stuns most non eximus units around you. If you're not just standing there getting shot, you can make iron skin go a very long way
Saw the eclipse change, all I cared about was the DR. After they announced the subsumed base dmg of Eclipse, it's basically saying, take Roar for dmg and take Eclipse for DR.
very glad this can be more streamlined with the resistance changes in the next mainline, even as a veteran its not surprising that the viral + heat combination can be one of the easiest damage synergies to understand.
I'd love your mirage build! I want to play her more but ive always struggled to pick her bc i really dont know what i should be rocking with to make her shine the most. Could you please share the build? Thanks (i also love your vids, the math makes sense for once when someone else says it)
Relatable. I have days where I tend to do that quite often. On days like that I like to challenge myself to go paragraph by paragraph / pause from time to time and summarize to myself what I have just heard, to help me concentrate and comprehend.
Until eclipse is buffed to at least 60%... Just pretend you're a wizard in D&D and roar is fireball. Just use fireball. Every time. Fireball solves all problems.
It's a setting you can tweak in the settings, in accessibility I believe. You can choose the color, intensity of the highlight, add another highlight on allies, etc. It's pretty good
So the bottom line is, if I want to utilize eclipse damage, I should use thrown melee or projectile weapons. Shame, I had it on a volt-amprex loadout but I guess I'll have to find a projectile aoe primary instead.
Eclipse needs to just give both reduction and damage with slightly lower bonus but higher cap than it currently does. Just so that its still usable and not completely overshadowed.
Conclusion. Eclipse is only good if you primarily want it for damage resistance and the option for damage boost can be used situationally. IDK if that makes it worse than Roar since it can at least fill two roles.
As a casual just collecting cool space ninjas to color watching someone crack out the math charts on this game is so wild, showing just how little i know 150/200 hs in.
Honestly the only take-away I got from this video; is the knowledge that eclipse is now a tap/hold ability. I don’t pay attention to patch notes and what not that much so it was a very pleasant surprise for me Can now guarantee myself the 600%+ damage increase i have for mirage without fighting lighting and bs
I only use eclipse on Baruuk, the damage reduction instance is so good on him. And if I'm bored, I'll just switch to damage buff and serene storm my way out.
For those that don't get the math: 4:40 10(Base) * (1 + 1.65) * (1 + 5) = 159 * 100 = 1590% 10 * 2.65 * 6 = 159 which is 1590% increase from 10 base. First percentage to multiplier then back to percentage
I have a question about your section on condition overload. According to the warframe wiki, "The bonus damage gained by this mod [condition overload] stacks additively with other damage mods like Pressure Point and Spoiled Strike to increase your melee damage." Based on the information you've provided, does that mean the warframe wiki is incorrect? It sounds as though the wiki only accounts for hit-scan weapons and ignores the way condition overload interacts with projectile and radial weapons. Does this mean that galvanized aptitude (with it being a part of the condition overload family of mods) is good for a weapon like the acceltra because it's a projectile weapon or bad for the acceltra because the acceltra also produces radial damage. Should I be considering serration on my acceltra? Should all radial weapons avoid this family of mods?
That particular section is incorrect yes. The wiki has more detail on its page on the Condition Overload (Mechanic), though again it may still be incomplete. As outlined in the video, there are general rules and then exceptions which cannot be predicted. Only by a specific weapon being tested with the mechanics can you be certain of which mod choice is best.
For some reason, probably DE's spagetthi code, some weapons have multiplicative co, I'm not too sure about the Acceltra, but if the projectiles have multiplicative co then it would be quite good for the projectiles, I'm not too sure about the radial portion though, my guess is it probably doesn't gain any effect from co
For the Acceltra specifically, wiki testers state that CO multiplies damage with the Red rockets and adds damage with the Blue rockets. That is quite likely referring ONLY to the direct impact and not at all to the radial explosion. Explosions almost never get a bonus.
There are some inconsistencies in how some weaons are coded, the equations are probably copy pasted somewhere and are too complex to just eyeball check.
Meh, I use both for fun. Both are good buffer abilities in their own right, one buffs ability & weapon dmg while the other just buffs weapons with DR to negate taken dmg. . At the end of the day just pick your poison since Jade might end up powercreeping both abilities anyways
Not to add more to this already massive subject of comparisons. But how does this fare against Nourish and the damage potential (only) that it brings as a consequence of viral status? Obviously you can double team these just the same as eclipse and roar, but is it more or less advantageous to get innate viral for your weapons when compared to eclipse and roar?
I used to always subsume roar because the damage is better and eclipse was way too inconsistent. But now I actually use eclipse now for some of my other warframes that could use damage reduction and that little bit of extra damage, i sometimes use it over roar even though the damage bonus is no where near as good
Hello I just wanted to ask have you tried Lavos with Eclipse over Vial rush with Valence augment? It seems to make you almost invulnerable permanent Shield Gate weapon platform with some shield Regen mods lol!! I wanted to Take Lavos to level cap with this setup to test the limits of Tankyness but I don't have the time...The build is basically Catalyzing shields with a bunch of shield recharge and recharge delay mods! I may even invest some Orange shards for Blast proc shield Regen.. and maybe Cast rate cuz having to use ability animations in Weapon Platform build lowers your DPS (hence why I replace vial rush cuz it's unneeded I only need my weapon and Tankyness buffed by valence)
Eclipse just became the " screw it have i think it was 72 or 75% DR" ability. Made a protea with this as her 4 and general powe not 4 power with shield fan and it kinda works
@@lookalike4805except when it doesn't. I'd wager more builds would have benefitted from the originally planned 350% additive damage cap than the resulting 30% conditional multiplicative. I think "careful what you wish for" is the more pertinent mantra...
hopefully they streamline this after the armor changes and make CO multiplicative even if at lower values. for eclipse it should have been reduced to 75% matching the damage reduction and being an option worth considering compared to roar
So, in general, Roar is better for status builds and Eclipse is better for raw damage. Also, apply the double Equinox school of thought and try to use the one buff or the other if you know your ally has one of them.
Glad I'm not the only one frustrated with how condition overload "works". Whatever insight or understanding one can divine from its inconsistent logic and math is tenuous at best and potentially subject to falling apart from even the smallest update changes. I stopped trying to optimize for CO and now just mentally treat any CO bonuses as additive when putting a build together.
Glaives just scale weirdly with additive damage, its the reason why chroma or limbo are going to hit higher numbers with those than mirage will cause they can get insanely high additive damage which is (im pretty sure) scaled into multiplicative damage
From my testing it's something like this (1 +Additive Bonus) * Additive Bonus Where the first additive bonus includes Serration, Merciless, etc. and the second one is only the ability's additive bonus, highest yellow crit I've seen on my budget build is 3.8 million
@@vectorlua8081idk if thats true, but if it is then the first bonus is MELEE damage and second bonus is DAMAGE. They are two different stats. Melee damage doesnt affect (most) melee projectiles whereas damage does. Also CO is multiplicative with (most) melee projectiles. That being said I have no idea how it works with glaives. Dystopia has a video a while back about how damage double dips on glaives, but recently ive heard stuff abt it being multiplicative and idk whats true anymore.
Hey Kengineer, I just saw a video about Miter incarnon and thought about how good anything homing is on max duration & ammo efficiency Gauss. Would you like to make a video about Gauss being broken afk shield gater? I literally don't do anything and he just doesn't die because... shield, you don't even have to press buttons. New meta unlocked - stare at the screen intensely.
I really wish the game would tell you wether a damage bonus is additive(and to what) or multiplicative or absolute. Maybe all different types of damage increase should have a color code
At least for abilities and buffs, yea. When it comes to mods, anything that adds different damage types is multiplicative, but adding more of the same damage type via mods is additive
Please don't use projectile/hitscan/aoe to assume if weapons use multiplicative CO. Majority of projectiles are calculated additively. And it's like only about 10-25% of projectiles use multiplicative CO calculations. For example : Boltor, Bolto, all bows in non-incarnon form (except Nataruk, Cinta) calculated CO additively The only consistency is that all guns that shoot Arca-Plasmor-like projectiles use multiplicative CO. so it's far far far better to find CO spread sheet. Blame DE for the inconsistency on the mod >.>
Think of it this way. If you can just press fire and hit something, bring Roar. If you need to treat the shot like an arrow, bring Eclipse. This also applies to abilities which is why Nova and Wisp works. I feel that Eclipse is being over-nerfed. Couple that with no air heavy attack, the Contagion arcane mechanic is completely neutered. Not intended they say. Well okay but Glaives are hitting the same numbers, without the investment in Zaw parts or the arcane. Sorry I digressed.
they aren't buggy at all they just don't work on explosive weapons which there are a lot of and for consistency I'm blaming that on how you're using them because I haven't had any issues with the condition overload effects of the galvanized mod or even the melee mod itself
@@theunhingedgamer3762 did you not listen to the video/ever look into the CO guidelines? It's wildly inconsistent and that's what op is complaining about. They weren't saying the buffs are bugged, you added that. So much so that there're three categories and many weapons that should fall into one fall into another.
Yeah, I wish it would just tell us in the arsenal "additive" or "multiplicative", if they have to use the whacky system. Or have the arsenal just show us the real damage? Fixing it would be ideal, but you know DE would make it consistently additive causing some weapons to lose power. I think we're stuck with the system. Let them work on AoE too! Lol
Kinda curious and not sure if someone in the comments brought it up or not, but how would this affect Eidelon hunts? Would roar or Eclipse be better? I'd always bring Eclipse on my volt for Eidelon hunts but with the changes now I'm not sure which one is better
I've read in the past (granted before the rework) that Roar doesn't work against object health, while Eclipse does; this, in turn, meaning that Eclipse would be better against the Profit-Taker's pylons. Is that (still) accurate, and if so would you say that is a significant advantage over Roar?
@@lookalike4805roar is 'like' a faction mod but isnt actually treated exactly the same it just appears in the same parts(in the dmg equation) as normal faction mods would be and adds to them, but diffrent from them it doesnt care about factions or other conditions, dunno tho if and how it counts towards objects.
I use eclipse on nekros. Lunar eclipsebfor the DR when I don't have shield of shadows up, and then activate solar for extra damage and can go back to the damage reduction if my shields start to deplete too fast
I already have Roar subsumed and you stated Roar is just the better pick most of the time, but man Eclipse Titania seems really fun i want to try it out lol
@@cayde-6502 I prefer Pathocyst. In part because I don't have Glaive Prime, in part because it saves me having to put Viral on it, but mostly because it was the first weapon I got a riven for good enough to make the weapon strong, and that feeling stays with me.
@@miramosa7768 I feel you. I still play Wisp + Stahlta very often for the same reason haha. Stahlta was the first weapon I heavily invested resources in
maybe works but cast time on anything now is just uuugh. Wish I never tried 5 cast shards, natural, power transfer. Now I know why casting isnt a thing in warframe.
Eclipse's seemingly-random interactions actually all share a common factor: Mirage is, canonically, The Biggest Troll, so it's only to be expected that the ability you get from sacrificing her to the pogwall continues to troll in her absence.
It's not buggy, it's lore-accurate.
My Helminth just got a new name, lmao, thank you
Limbo: Am I a joke to you?
I love how rhino, even as a helminth ability, can be summed up as "it just works." My boi just casually chillin' and still being a top tier frame from day 1
Everyone laughs at rhino for being simple but simple fucking works, unlike whatever the fuck CO is.
@@princequincy5421 Rhino is a perfect example of how a simple kit doesn't mean "bad" at any rate.
@@DragonKnightJinstyanax kinda fits the bill as well, just not as simple as Rhino
@@timcal2136 That would be because Styanax was designed with the 'simplicity' of frames from when the game was still new in mind. Just added that little bit of sauce from how the game'd evolved since then.
@@DragonKnightJin yeah i know, that’s why i mentioned him lol. Good to add the bit of context for other readers though since i didnt include that
I think the most interesting application of Eclipse is the DR for sure: it makes shield tanking suddenly viable without needing to do funky shield gate shenanigans.
Also it can be recast while still active, and it gives full DR even with no additional power strength.
@@clarienne7583 I still dont get why you cant recast all duration based abilities while they are active, you can recast eclipse but not hall of mirrors like, WHY???
Yup, currently fine-tuning my Mag build and I definetly prefer Eclipse over her Polarize + augment.
That ability needs to be cast constantly, is slow to reach to enemies, doesn't work on everything and doesn't last long and it NEEDS the augment. Eclipse is just 75% DR that's consistent with an optional augment and benefits your health too to make Toxin less dangerous.
@@gustavosanches3454 Because once upon a time the short window of vulnerability was considered enough of a weakness to allow hilariously overpowered defensive abilities like Mesa's 95% gun DR and Zephyr's complete immunity to bullets. HoM included.
It makes wonders with reworked Inaros
Eclipse is the new bane of kengineer
"Primed Bane of Excel Sheet"
@@RapTapTap69 No, for excel sheet people more data is not a problem it's an excuse to make more excel sheets (ex I have a sheet about what CO does to every weapon, now some sheet goblin will probably just make another page about how eclipse interacts with it)
@@ysgramorssoupspoon2261 at some point you'll have so many excel sheets that you'll need Excel Sheet Prime to make sense of them all
"...Condition Overload."
I audibly groaned. There's nothing more ominous in a Warframe optimization video than mentioning that line of mods. Excellent video, you had me convinced as soon as you mentioned CO.
Does condition overload (melee) has damage cap?
excellent video, it really comes down to "you want stable predictible damage"(roar) or "maybe you want some defense on the side"(eclipse) i really like quadrupling my EHP on certain frames with the 75% dr, it's nice
Stack it with other frames that have percentage damage reduction (Citrine, Ember, so on) and the numbers start getting really nice.
Warframe's spaghetti code never ceases to amaze me
Ngl a more interesting comparison is when to use Xata’s over Roar. A video on that would be very appreciated as especially after the bugged interaction with DA being patched, it’s not so cut and dry.
No real reason to use Xata's since DE "fixed" the 2000% perks applying twice.
@@TheTundraTerror it still has a separate instance of DA, which is better than just doing a small buff to one. Also because it’s a separate damage instance it’s better for DPS for damage attenuation from what I’ve found. I’d just like to see if there’s any other instances where it’s better
the way I see it now Xata's has better raw damage for things with attenuation like archons and acolytes. roar is for status dps since you want the double dip on DOTs
@@TheTundraTerror Saryn's spores still apply twice with Xata
@@TheTundraTerrorwhy in quotes? Would you mind elaborating?
So this is a math game where math don't math
pretty much
Yeah, we call that Calculus.
Always has been. Just look at primed sure footed for example. 100% knockdown immunity still lets 1 in 10,000 get you for some reason. Thats why all status arcanes say 102% immunity chance
@@undeadinside3571that bug was patch months ago bro
@@turkeykent3719 i got staggered literally today while using it
Why do I feel like I understand less AFTER the video ?
fr
That's Perfectly Normal. 😐
lol.
Thats just warframe
Because it was a British narrator
Vex Armor sitting in the corner with it's new rubber mallet...
I do think it has gotten somewhat better with specific arcanes, like running corrosive/cold on a primary fully investing in crit/multishot, and letting Chroma fill in the base damage.
@@NeightrixPrime Yeah. I do that with a Gotva prime and it's shredding enemies in Netracell
So, exactly what I've been telling people since before the helminth nerf. They wouldn't believe me then point out someone who only did on hit damage equations. Look who's laughing now
Rhino is the Toyota HiLux of frames, Can fit any weapon needed for your combat objective and just works.
side note is why does Warframe's math have to be so complex, at times it feels like nothing about modding is intuitive and it does not help that faction mods for example reflect nothing in the modding UI. If you drop a Serration in there the number gets bigger and you can tell its going to do more hurtin, Drop a bane in there and the number stays the same.
I am not going to lie: this video opened my eyes so much and finally debunked many things my friends call me out on with using CO bonuses on hit-scan/radial attack projectile-weapons, or even Eclipse.
I salute you for this glorious eye-opener.
ooo, nice vid. I didn't know about the particulars of eclipse with CO or thrown melee, or the edge case of Nova 2. those are niche enough that Roar is still pretty clearly the pick if you're not literally just trying to get the DR tho.
A minor but notable difference is recasting for shield gates. Eclipse can be recast at the caster's leisure, but Roar requires its augment to do so. Granted any build that wants to shield gate will have abilities that work better than a 25 energy cost buff, but it is an option.
I think it’s decent for the damage reduction but if purely looking for damage then there’s no question.
Try this,Hildryn or Harrow with the damage reduction part and adaptation...it is basicly for the most part 99% damage reduction because of shields having 50% the 75% of eclipse and adaptation wild inconsistent numbers,it is so fun to see and play
*Rawr supremacy!*
@@hellkaiser1366 To be specific it's 98.75% DR when adaptation has proper stacks. But there's also the fact that you can just kill them faster.
Still wished they changed it to 90%, amazing for squishy frames if you need to patch in survivability, but only 75% applied to yourself is kinda mid compared to other options for a helminth
@@steveverera9999 yeah but just 1 shot can kill you if you’re not smart.
I'll summarize the whole video: Roar is better than Eclipse
No,roar is just easear to use,there it was not hard to understand my dude
Roar scales horribly with strength and even with the nerf to Eclipse on Helminth it's still not that great imo and that's not me saying Roar damage is bad it's just overrated and only good for certain situations
@@hellkaiser1366 Roar is like a faction mod, it will increase the damage of roar status much more, in addition to also increasing the damage of skills that are not exalted weapons
@@theunhingedgamer3762 wtf you talking about? Both have 30% strength lmao roar buff any ability damage and Acts as a faction mod and increases status damage even further, except just the weapon's impact damage
Well yeah but w h y ...
Love the thumbnail . Roarlillion votes for roar
Thanks for the video. It sounds like a maddening experience finding and picking apart all of these inconsistencies.
Great video as always, though the subtitles are acting up again
They were taking longer than expected to process - youtube tells me the correct captions (not auto generated) should be live now
Summary:
Roar: Best for an overall damage focus, unless it’s a weird case like Nova’s Antimatter Absorb.
Eclipse: Best for if you need an extra DR source for something to be viable, while still being able to give your damage a little kick when the time suits it. Also the best subsume to pair with Nova’s Antimatter Drop
I googled this exact thing 4 hours ago this morning and you make a video about it? I'm living in a personalized simulation based around me playing Warframe for sure.
A pretty good video. Thanks. So, for ProfitTaker it is better to get ecplise for the exodia contagion buff, and just apply roar for everything else. Is that it?
Doesn't Matter since Profit Taker is Weak Enough even for *Chroma* to Kill. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Roar on a strength modded revenant with 5 red archon shards makes enemies disappear. Add viral stacks and reave and you clear hallways at a time
Alternatively, you could just use Rhino and be just as invincible as Revenant, but now you have Rhino's full power roar. Nothing wrong with playing either of them over the other though, it is a game after all, play what you enjoy!
I could do that but I find revenant's mesmer skin to be particularly reliable and the added benefit of temporarily stunning enemies allows me to farm headshots to charge incarnon weapons
@@conorb.1901 Sp enemies over level 600+ just one shot rhino he's no where close to revenant who is literally immortal unless you don't play and forgot to press one button
@thesaltyone4400 that's arguable. Rhino's Iron Skin (and Nezha's halo) scale off of enemy damage during their invincibility period. So if you click iron skin in a big group of strong enemies and let them shoot you for a few seconds, you'll have millions of iron skin without even trying. It's also not that difficult to keep it up either, as Reinforcing Stomp is a fantastic augment and also stuns most non eximus units around you. If you're not just standing there getting shot, you can make iron skin go a very long way
Saw the eclipse change, all I cared about was the DR. After they announced the subsumed base dmg of Eclipse, it's basically saying, take Roar for dmg and take Eclipse for DR.
I've began to think this is one of the best if not the best WF youtube channel out there.
The MIGHTY SEER benefits from both
"Stick with Roar, it works" is a great synopsis that I've come to myself as well xD
very glad this can be more streamlined with the resistance changes in the next mainline, even as a veteran its not surprising that the viral + heat combination can be one of the easiest damage synergies to understand.
I'd love your mirage build! I want to play her more but ive always struggled to pick her bc i really dont know what i should be rocking with to make her shine the most. Could you please share the build? Thanks (i also love your vids, the math makes sense for once when someone else says it)
I got so confused watching this video that I zoned out and started staring at my foot
Relatable. I have days where I tend to do that quite often. On days like that I like to challenge myself to go paragraph by paragraph / pause from time to time and summarize to myself what I have just heard, to help me concentrate and comprehend.
Until eclipse is buffed to at least 60%... Just pretend you're a wizard in D&D and roar is fireball. Just use fireball. Every time. Fireball solves all problems.
Very insightful, thanks man
does wolf sledge also use eclipse twice or is it better off with roar? it's kind of a thrown melee, even if it doesn't use thrown weapon mods.
I love using the new eclipse on inaros because having free DR or free dmg whenever I wish to is just fantastic
How does the enemies are highlighted in red? It is a pretty nice QOL.
Also, nice video as always.
It's a setting you can tweak in the settings, in accessibility I believe. You can choose the color, intensity of the highlight, add another highlight on allies, etc. It's pretty good
One point you did not mention is whether Roar buffs all ability damage without exception, which would be another advantage. Is that (still) the case?
as a main rhino, i see this as a personal win
So the bottom line is, if I want to utilize eclipse damage, I should use thrown melee or projectile weapons.
Shame, I had it on a volt-amprex loadout but I guess I'll have to find a projectile aoe primary instead.
Eclipse needs to just give both reduction and damage with slightly lower bonus but higher cap than it currently does. Just so that its still usable and not completely overshadowed.
Conclusion. Eclipse is only good if you primarily want it for damage resistance and the option for damage boost can be used situationally. IDK if that makes it worse than Roar since it can at least fill two roles.
As a casual just collecting cool space ninjas to color watching someone crack out the math charts on this game is so wild, showing just how little i know 150/200 hs in.
Honestly the only take-away I got from this video; is the knowledge that eclipse is now a tap/hold ability. I don’t pay attention to patch notes and what not that much so it was a very pleasant surprise for me
Can now guarantee myself the 600%+ damage increase i have for mirage without fighting lighting and bs
I only use eclipse on Baruuk, the damage reduction instance is so good on him. And if I'm bored, I'll just switch to damage buff and serene storm my way out.
Secondary question, if breach surge is counted as weapon damage, does archon orange shards that buff ability radiaton damage work on it?
Weapon abilities still count as abilities too
For those that don't get the math: 4:40
10(Base) * (1 + 1.65) * (1 + 5) = 159 * 100 = 1590%
10 * 2.65 * 6 = 159 which is 1590% increase from 10 base.
First percentage to multiplier then back to percentage
Hey ken, any chance of a valkyr guide in our future? Ive been working on her a while and was hoping to level up my game somewhat
Me now pondering Eclipse+Adaptation on Hildryn
Everyone subsumes roar and strongest roar stays, so if you run eclipse you can double up or have roar + resistances.
I have a question about your section on condition overload. According to the warframe wiki,
"The bonus damage gained by this mod [condition overload] stacks additively with other damage mods like Pressure Point and Spoiled Strike to increase your melee damage."
Based on the information you've provided, does that mean the warframe wiki is incorrect? It sounds as though the wiki only accounts for hit-scan weapons and ignores the way condition overload interacts with projectile and radial weapons.
Does this mean that galvanized aptitude (with it being a part of the condition overload family of mods) is good for a weapon like the acceltra because it's a projectile weapon or bad for the acceltra because the acceltra also produces radial damage. Should I be considering serration on my acceltra? Should all radial weapons avoid this family of mods?
That particular section is incorrect yes. The wiki has more detail on its page on the Condition Overload (Mechanic), though again it may still be incomplete.
As outlined in the video, there are general rules and then exceptions which cannot be predicted. Only by a specific weapon being tested with the mechanics can you be certain of which mod choice is best.
For some reason, probably DE's spagetthi code, some weapons have multiplicative co, I'm not too sure about the Acceltra, but if the projectiles have multiplicative co then it would be quite good for the projectiles, I'm not too sure about the radial portion though, my guess is it probably doesn't gain any effect from co
@TheKengineer I can certainly see what you mean by "the utter insanity that is condition overload" now. Thank you!
For the Acceltra specifically, wiki testers state that CO multiplies damage with the Red rockets and adds damage with the Blue rockets. That is quite likely referring ONLY to the direct impact and not at all to the radial explosion. Explosions almost never get a bonus.
There are some inconsistencies in how some weaons are coded, the equations are probably copy pasted somewhere and are too complex to just eyeball check.
Thanks for this.
Meh, I use both for fun.
Both are good buffer abilities in their own right, one buffs ability & weapon dmg while the other just buffs weapons with DR to negate taken dmg.
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At the end of the day just pick your poison since Jade might end up powercreeping both abilities anyways
Any videos going over heat inherit? Thats one mechanic i dont really understand.
I got about half way through that video before my eyes glazed over and I said "f#ck it, I'll just use Roar"
Not to add more to this already massive subject of comparisons. But how does this fare against Nourish and the damage potential (only) that it brings as a consequence of viral status? Obviously you can double team these just the same as eclipse and roar, but is it more or less advantageous to get innate viral for your weapons when compared to eclipse and roar?
I used to always subsume roar because the damage is better and eclipse was way too inconsistent. But now I actually use eclipse now for some of my other warframes that could use damage reduction and that little bit of extra damage, i sometimes use it over roar even though the damage bonus is no where near as good
Hello I just wanted to ask have you tried Lavos with Eclipse over Vial rush with Valence augment? It seems to make you almost invulnerable permanent Shield Gate weapon platform with some shield Regen mods lol!! I wanted to Take Lavos to level cap with this setup to test the limits of Tankyness but I don't have the time...The build is basically Catalyzing shields with a bunch of shield recharge and recharge delay mods! I may even invest some Orange shards for Blast proc shield Regen.. and maybe Cast rate cuz having to use ability animations in Weapon Platform build lowers your DPS (hence why I replace vial rush cuz it's unneeded I only need my weapon and Tankyness buffed by valence)
Eclipse just became the " screw it have i think it was 72 or 75% DR" ability.
Made a protea with this as her 4 and general powe not 4 power with shield fan and it kinda works
I cant imagine the hours his discord must have thaken to research this.
Does the part about glaives at ~8:00 apply to other thrown melees? Such as the Wolf Slege
Weren't the changes to Eclipse also supposed to make it always an additive bonus, like Vex Armor? Did that just not happen?
That plan got changed due to community feedback
Whining Works. 😎
@lookalike4805 In my mind they changed something about the scaling, but kept the additive nature the same. I guess I crossed timelines somewhere. 😄
@@lookalike4805except when it doesn't. I'd wager more builds would have benefitted from the originally planned 350% additive damage cap than the resulting 30% conditional multiplicative. I think "careful what you wish for" is the more pertinent mantra...
hopefully they streamline this after the armor changes and make CO multiplicative even if at lower values.
for eclipse it should have been reduced to 75% matching the damage reduction and being an option worth considering compared to roar
What about Volt eclipse, rubico prime, no riven. Can it still oneshot Harry? Or useless now?
The only time i use eclipse is in niche cases where i want the damage reduction aspect on it with frames that have low survivability like Gyre
i just use roar for most missions and eclipse alomost exclusively for eidolons/pt
Are they better than xata’s whisper and sentient wrath? Mainly for endgame level cap, since overguard is more annoying to deal with at that point.
So, in general, Roar is better for status builds and Eclipse is better for raw damage.
Also, apply the double Equinox school of thought and try to use the one buff or the other if you know your ally has one of them.
I reversed the key binds so that light mode is a quick tap and hold is dark mode
Glad I'm not the only one frustrated with how condition overload "works". Whatever insight or understanding one can divine from its inconsistent logic and math is tenuous at best and potentially subject to falling apart from even the smallest update changes. I stopped trying to optimize for CO and now just mentally treat any CO bonuses as additive when putting a build together.
Glaives just scale weirdly with additive damage, its the reason why chroma or limbo are going to hit higher numbers with those than mirage will cause they can get insanely high additive damage which is (im pretty sure) scaled into multiplicative damage
From my testing it's something like this
(1 +Additive Bonus) * Additive Bonus
Where the first additive bonus includes Serration, Merciless, etc. and the second one is only the ability's additive bonus, highest yellow crit I've seen on my budget build is 3.8 million
@@vectorlua8081idk if thats true, but if it is then the first bonus is MELEE damage and second bonus is DAMAGE. They are two different stats. Melee damage doesnt affect (most) melee projectiles whereas damage does. Also CO is multiplicative with (most) melee projectiles. That being said I have no idea how it works with glaives. Dystopia has a video a while back about how damage double dips on glaives, but recently ive heard stuff abt it being multiplicative and idk whats true anymore.
It functions sort of like critical stuff on the zymos. That's a big part of the reason why
Hey Kengineer, I just saw a video about Miter incarnon and thought about how good anything homing is on max duration & ammo efficiency Gauss. Would you like to make a video about Gauss being broken afk shield gater? I literally don't do anything and he just doesn't die because... shield, you don't even have to press buttons. New meta unlocked - stare at the screen intensely.
I really wish the game would tell you wether a damage bonus is additive(and to what) or multiplicative or absolute. Maybe all different types of damage increase should have a color code
At least for abilities and buffs, yea. When it comes to mods, anything that adds different damage types is multiplicative, but adding more of the same damage type via mods is additive
The game would very much like to tell you. Unfortunately, it doesn't even know itself most of the time.
Does Zenistar's disk also get the Eclipse buff twice?
would eclipse be better for mesa's regulators, or would roar be better?
Please don't use projectile/hitscan/aoe to assume if weapons use multiplicative CO. Majority of projectiles are calculated additively. And it's like only about 10-25% of projectiles use multiplicative CO calculations.
For example : Boltor, Bolto, all bows in non-incarnon form (except Nataruk, Cinta) calculated CO additively
The only consistency is that all guns that shoot Arca-Plasmor-like projectiles use multiplicative CO. so it's far far far better to find CO spread sheet.
Blame DE for the inconsistency on the mod >.>
Wait what? Eclipse doesnt auto change corresponding to light intensity any more?
I was wondering why my glaive prime did more damage with eclipse than with roar. Eclipse double dips with thrown melees heavy attacks.
Think of it this way. If you can just press fire and hit something, bring Roar. If you need to treat the shot like an arrow, bring Eclipse. This also applies to abilities which is why Nova and Wisp works. I feel that Eclipse is being over-nerfed. Couple that with no air heavy attack, the Contagion arcane mechanic is completely neutered. Not intended they say. Well okay but Glaives are hitting the same numbers, without the investment in Zaw parts or the arcane. Sorry I digressed.
this video is sponsored by copiom from the warframe community because DE doesn't make anything bad
it used to improve synthesis scanning speed?! how does something like that even happen??
Pasmor and its tenet version have multiplicative CO. Many other veapons like that also have this thing.
How much ability strength do I need to mimic a Primed faction mod?
I personally hate how the CO mods are so inconsistent and unexplained they are they need to be fixed
they aren't buggy at all they just don't work on explosive weapons which there are a lot of and for consistency I'm blaming that on how you're using them because I haven't had any issues with the condition overload effects of the galvanized mod or even the melee mod itself
@@theunhingedgamer3762 did you not listen to the video/ever look into the CO guidelines? It's wildly inconsistent and that's what op is complaining about. They weren't saying the buffs are bugged, you added that. So much so that there're three categories and many weapons that should fall into one fall into another.
Yeah, I wish it would just tell us in the arsenal "additive" or "multiplicative", if they have to use the whacky system. Or have the arsenal just show us the real damage? Fixing it would be ideal, but you know DE would make it consistently additive causing some weapons to lose power. I think we're stuck with the system.
Let them work on AoE too! Lol
i love your channel
Kinda curious and not sure if someone in the comments brought it up or not, but how would this affect Eidelon hunts? Would roar or Eclipse be better? I'd always bring Eclipse on my volt for Eidelon hunts but with the changes now I'm not sure which one is better
For eidolon hunts eclipse is better simply because it costs less. Unless you want to give it to teammates.
I've read in the past (granted before the rework) that Roar doesn't work against object health, while Eclipse does; this, in turn, meaning that Eclipse would be better against the Profit-Taker's pylons. Is that (still) accurate, and if so would you say that is a significant advantage over Roar?
It's probably because Objects don't have a "Faction" so Faction Multipliers end up Multiplying Thin Air. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
@@lookalike4805roar is 'like' a faction mod but isnt actually treated exactly the same it just appears in the same parts(in the dmg equation) as normal faction mods would be and adds to them, but diffrent from them it doesnt care about factions or other conditions, dunno tho if and how it counts towards objects.
I use eclipse on nekros. Lunar eclipsebfor the DR when I don't have shield of shadows up, and then activate solar for extra damage and can go back to the damage reduction if my shields start to deplete too fast
I already have Roar subsumed and you stated Roar is just the better pick most of the time, but man Eclipse Titania seems really fun i want to try it out lol
It's totally possible, plus I'm pretty sure it's stronger fo invis frames too altho take tha wi a grain of salt
Splinter Storm also (kinda) double dip with Eclipse
Does the damage boost from Galvanized Aptitude affect the chained beams on Amprex or Torid?
Yeah, chains aren't radial damage, they're just extra instances of hitscan damage.
As someone who's always looking for an excuse to bring out a thrown melee, this was very interesting.
Your excuse to bring out Glaive Prime is that its the best melee in the game lmao
@@cayde-6502 I prefer Pathocyst. In part because I don't have Glaive Prime, in part because it saves me having to put Viral on it, but mostly because it was the first weapon I got a riven for good enough to make the weapon strong, and that feeling stays with me.
@@miramosa7768 I feel you. I still play Wisp + Stahlta very often for the same reason haha. Stahlta was the first weapon I heavily invested resources in
Well this explains why the xoris felt so much stronger on my mirage
so eclipse might be ok for non-hitscan non-explosive weapons
Hello tenno, is there any way to reduce the damage dealt to the overguard?
So I can reduce the dmg dealt to Rhino's overguard or iron skin.?
Actually yes there is 👍
So does eclipse or roar work on mesa after the nerf
Do you have a build on that Boltor Incarnon
im a gambler, gonna see what i can do with eclipse
Is there a better damage reduction subsume than Eclipse?
maybe works but cast time on anything now is just uuugh. Wish I never tried 5 cast shards, natural, power transfer. Now I know why casting isnt a thing in warframe.