@jamiewykes8585 Many thanks: 1st, thanks for joining-in, 2nd, thanks expressing appreciation for the data-rich results (I always wonder if I'm going too far into the weeds); 3rdly , time is unforgiving; thanks for taking some of yours to comment!!.
Thanks for replying🙂! I will be looking for the new videos. I should only need full throttle on take off. Much of my time will be at 1/2 throttle I imagine. But I will take some high rpm gains too haha👍. I’ll make a video with my test rig in a couple weeks. And let you know. Thanks again for all your hard work!!
@toddzilla6491 I won't make the promise that I will "ALWAYS" reply, but if I have ever missed a reply to ANYONE, it's due to a glitch on my end. So far, with my small channel, I am able to keep up and REALLY REALLY like the people who take time to talk to me down here. It's a double edged sword: it would be nice to have SOO many comments that I can't keep up... but then I wouldn't be able to keep up!! Anyway, the upcoming build is nothing grand or exotic an can be done with minimal tools. It has a similar HP curve as stock, but just a 1/2 horse higher (15%+) from Highest RPM all the way down to clutch slip. I can't remember where you were at on porting experience; the video may be too remedial for your skill set; it's truly a beginner-level build that get the big easy gains.
This didn’t turn out quite like I expected either. I think you’re right about getting that extra bit of compression when the rpm comes down a little. As is often the case, the quest for answers brings about more questions. It makes me wonder about the effects it would have in a full on race build but I don’t really have any desire or reason to build one for that. Also have to take into account the weight of that missing ring even though it would just be a couple grams. We are really down to splitting hairs here to even more of an extent than I thought. The practical side of me has a tough time leaving an empty ring land on a piston so I’ll probably just keep running two rings on two ring pistons. This is all just a hobby for me that quite frankly came out of nowhere anyways and a little bitty bit of HP here and there won’t matter much. It is nice when all those little bitties add up to a sizable measure though. I can’t thank you enough for all the time you have invested into all this. And that poor 026 has been one heck of a dyno mule that’s for sure.
@FarmlessFarmer-xs1he I think there are some dang good thinking points in there which will/should translate into something better/bigger in the future. If I've calculated the reason for the loss, I have an idea of combatting it. It's sure nice to keep the ol brain-pan greased up and ready. I know *you* will understand the implications of doing a quasi-mundane task such as driving or mowing hay and allowing one's mind to roam. Of course, a rabbit jump up or someone pulls out in front of ya, and your mental chalkboard gets erased. All part of the fun!! The ol' 026 is sure taking a beating, ain't she??!! I've put more bar oil through that saw than gasoline through my wood cutting saws. Keep a strain on 'er, Farmless!
I think your idea of higher cylinder pressure above 4hp seems reasonable. I don't grasp how the drag from the extra ring caused such a sudden drop as rpm climbed though. Still loads to figure out obviously. I'll have to have another go at those results charts when my brain is firing on more cylinders. Too many changing factors for me tonight. Good video. Keep at it and you'll be turning out perfect cubes someday.
@Kevin.L_ I won't give my opinion as to the reason for the drop/rise; I do have an opinion, but would rather hear your uninfluenced thoughts! It's sure give a cause to think, doesn't it!? Thanks Kevin!
@@HayChaffandSawdust1 I've spent some mental energy on this and come up empty handed. Extra weight and drag are obvious. I figure a single ring gets better lubrication from the under side and eliminates any pressure between the rings, but none of that explains the sharp drop off of the dual ring setup in my simple mind. Guessing that you've already considered, or maybe tried, reducing the ring tension? That seems like the next step to cut down on friction/heat.
@Kevin.L_ I only mention your choice of word of "sharp drop off" due to the fact that I run my dyno sheet backwards of dyno joe's, but my lil ol pea brain shows sharper incline on the two ring; if I look at each 1/10th hp increase before the point they cross, there biggest gain in HP is at the highest RPM. It's almost like comparing the free-rev with a chainsaw with and without a chain; it will rev a lot higher without the chain... less drag. I've been focusing on both sides of the point at which the lines cross and am leaning that (single ring) hp gains left of the converging point are attributable to less drag/friction while the (two ring) gains at right of the point are attributable to less blow-by. I hadn't considered attempting to attribute the sharpness of the incline to anything else as that satisfied my mind. It's a very similar curve (sharper incline) to the to baseline (same exhaust, timing, etc as this two-ring baseline) as the previous test with the long decomp/surface gap plug comparison. This baseline did show a little less HP than the previous test, but I didn't readjust carb for max hp and left it where I cut with it to compare the two. I do intend to put-off the cylinder offset until after I do some more testing on this ring(s) thing; waiting on UPS to bring me more tools before I attempt another test though. ...and yes, lower tension and two rings!!
@@HayChaffandSawdust1 Drop off, incline doesn't matter, we both know we are talking about the left side of your curve. And yes, it's better to refer to the area above where they cross. I've watched so many of your videos that Joe's graphs are starting to look backwards. You've brainwashed me! That cylinder offset should provide some interesting information, but it changes most everything about the engine and I'm not sure it's something many will try to replicate. You got some real motivation about this project. I'm impressed to say the least. The old "dog with a bone" phrase doesn't do you justice. What kind of new tools are we going to see?
@Kevin.L_ Ok, glad we're on the same page. Each you and Archer have similar concerns/questions with the sharpness of the incline/decline. Being a long-time digester of information, I always look internally; therefore, I'm am wondering what ***I*** am missing; same as everyone watching, I'm also trying to digest the information and I don't think I have enough. I'm thinking that the biggest thing I'm missing (information wise) is attempting to conclude that the lack of gains, after the converging point, is due to loss of compression gasses past the rings or ring gap(s). There's only @2/10 difference on the high rpm side of the converging point (give me that for argument's sake... it's about that at 11.5K; less above and more below). 1/10 of the difference was accounted-for in friction; some more can be attributable to inertia (that's another story and "problem" with my dyno and Dyno Joe's dyno that I'm attempting to negate in MY dyno), and I *think* the rest is blow-by. The "tool" is a leak-down tester which will give a reading of percentage of leak down. I will never be able to split he atoms in this, but I can quantify as many as I can; hopefully we can paint it into a corner. I'm sure that smarter people than I have tried and failed, but I'm going to give it a whirl. I'm not even trying to put an end to the discussions and speculations all over the internet... I just want to convince myself... one way or the other.
Could you use a digital torque gauge that has memory, chuck it in a drill and spin the saw with plug out and compare readings from single ring to two ring that way?
@MrJeepfreak1972 That was my original idea, too. The two-ring was in the neighborhood or 3 inch/pounds and my in/lb gauge only goes down to 10. Of course, the single ring was far less. Dang good idea though. Hope all's been well with you and your loved ones!
@MrJeepfreak1972 I have not tried the full effects of it yet; it worked well for assembly; I'm anxious to see the cleanup after disassembly. Thanks for the pointer; I couldn't remember WHO told me when I was using it and recording!! Thanks again!!
@HayChaffandSawdust1 Clean up is a breeze. It more like a soft, sticky wax than rubber like the other sealants. Brake cleaner and a rag take care of it.
@MrJeepfreak1972 Thanks; wasn't sure; I observed, that on the side of the box of sealer, they offer a cleaner/release agent as well. I was hoping it was just something simple like brake clean.
@justincredible7168 At the risk of sounding obtuse, I'm not sure. It is its own video without the chainsaw background noise. Does that help? Thanks for the kind words and for joining in!
Do you have any opinion on longer vs shorter intake runner length. I’m working with a MS250 engine. It’s not in a chainsaw but a big ass model airplane. I have a 1” header and tuned pipe built. And am making two carb adaptors one short like on the saw and one long for comparison. I’m thinking longer will create more low end torque.
@toddzilla6491 I wouldn't be surprised if you were to gain low end torque as well as higher RPM gains. Within reason, I think longer is better... to a point. If too long, there will be too much "friction" (shear) along the surface; a 50' 5/8 garden hose will not flow as much as a 6" 5/8 garden hose even though they are the same volume of cross section. I think there are gains to be had, though! That little 250 engine has a LOT of room for improvement. I have a 3-part series coming in a month or so going from 2.99HP to 3.5Hp VERY EASILY with "home gamer" tools.
Enjoy your testing experiments here. Question on the exhaust temp. Do you think that the single ring is lower because temps are bypassing the one ring to the lower crankcase? It would be interesting to somehow take crankcase temps in this process to see how much is going to the lower end bearing. Or maybe I have a strange light bulb that goes off in my head. 😆👍
@sunbear1973 That's a doozie of a question; I do think it is possible; I think the hot compression gasses and partially burnt combustion gasses are going by the rings; that would do two things; the compression gasses AND Combustion gasses would both/either be much hotter than the intake thru the carb; this heats the next compression charge and the problem becomes exponential thereby lowering HP (lower exhaust temp) as well as regurgitating compression and unburned combustion gasses back into the lower end; any extra fuel is added to an already-correct charge in the lower end; this will cause the next compression charge to be hotter, but also much richer; I think the rich condition coupled with the lower HP could/would lower exhaust temps. That's just my kneejerk thoughts on it; I plan to get back to the thin ring and single ring testing as time allows; I have 5 new sets of rings and developed a very cool way of thinning the rings in a far-more-precise manner. Good question!! I have a theory, but that's about it as of now. Thanks for being here and joining-in!!
@sunbear1973 Forgot to add: to get crankcase temps, I would have to compromise the lower case by drilling a hole and just hoping and praying that I don't get a vac leak around the thermocouple; and, once the testing is complete, I would have a permanent hole in a genuine case. I've thought about the next test mule saw and doing just that though as it will probably spend its whole existence on the bench, dyno, and making cookies for test cuts. A feller has to have dreams/plans; if he didn't, he might would fall right asleep at night instead of turning in bed like a gas station hot dog while trying to figure out the next "problem".
my 026 ported build and my ms200t ported build have 1 ring thanks to tinmansaws I also came up with a parasitic draw test it's in going over my collection and it was on a 115cc 075 cylinder so it's real😊
@tomintexas817 I, too, really enjoyed doing the parasitic draw and blowby tests with the rings. I probably spent way to much time building gadgets and figuring out the tests, but I had a good time; now I've got the stuff for next time!!
Had to watch twice and think about it a bit. Could you have captured the peak HP loss that it in the theory of, you loose your off the top, at peak crankcase pressure transfer charge straight out of the exhaust on down stroke, because the lower ring groove allows this to open before the transfer opens to the piston top? It would be a small loss, and could be ignored if you wanted the other perks of running one ring. I believe Dyno Joe has made a lower ring filler before. They sell lifetime fishing hunting licenses, for when a person is ready to stop dating the outdoors and commit to it 😂
@Archer_82 I like your reasoning and am not definite. I do remember Dyno Joe doing that and don't remember the results; I thought the plug showed no improvement. A considered opinion is that, while the empty ring gap is open, it has to go all the way around the piston to escape through the exhaust port; at the same time, the transfers are at their (near) highest pressures, but the exhaust is still evacuating and ALSO at a high pressure. Conversely, as the exhaust is leaving through the slight opening at top of the piston and flowing downward toward the bottom of the exhaust port, it would be causing a low-pressure area against the piston. I think the pressure of the transfers is low enough to make the losses through the ring gap miniscule. ON THE OTHER HAND, I am contemplating that, since the power loss is WHERE it is, that the combustion gasses are at their highest and send a jet of hot gasses past the single ring gap. A two ring set up remedies that by offsetting the ring gaps thereby making a labyrinth ; the labyrinth seal offsets the losses due to ring gap... it takes (at least) two to make a labyrinth seal. I suspect I will see more carbon/ash/soot in the lower end when I disassemble the saw. If I see that, I can more-reliably conclude that the losses are due to blow-by. The blowby may also be impacting exhaust temps by regurgitating hot combustion gasses through the normally-cooler intake charge? I agree on the lifetime fishing license... same rules apply: no fishing out of season, no trespassing, STRICT "bag" limit, safety vest optional, only one pole in the water at a time, etc... 😉😂
@@HayChaffandSawdust1I completely misspoke by saying ring gap. I should have said the lower, empty piston ring groove, but I think you understood what I had meant. I guess I wonder how many degrees of rotation there are between the lower ring groove opening to the exhaust, and the transfers opening, how many degrees of exhaust blowdown have already occurred, prior to this grove being opened to the exhaust port. Is the exhaust pressure low enough for transfer through this gap? I’d would be a very low volume. Could you tune to overcome it? You said you did not adjust the carb but could have tuned for max HP. I could be just complicating this and it is measuring loss from failed compression, the pressure test came back extremely close, but it could be different under load, though, the existing ring gap (right word this time) should close up as the piston heats up… it’s muddy water.. a lot to think about
@Archer_82 "It's muddy water..." ; You said a mouthful there!!! I'm not sure if you CAN tune around combustion gasses getting back into the lower case as it's a exponential problem; the combustion gasses heat the lower case which heats the fuel/air; in turn, it puts a hotter charge on top of the cylinder and makes an EVEN HOTTER gas leaking into t lower cyl (anyway, that's what one of the major ring manufacturers claim with 2 strokes). Good thoughts and great points to consider!!
😂😂😂 Annual renewal on a marriage license. 😂😂 Your dyno results are mirroring exactly the perceived feeling one gets from removing a ring on a two ring piston and or also lessening the tension on the ring. In my thinking the rings on a two ring piston, their thickness, tension, and overlap have all been engineered to provide the least amount of blow by throughout the entire RPM range. By removing a ring one is taking that away from the two ring design. A comparison I would love to see on a dyno is the single ring 371xp piston (actually designed to run a single ring) versus a 372xp twin ring piston. I have built the 372 with both pistons and tend to favor the OEM 371xp single ring. My 372's built both ways are holding up equally well. Every engine has a percentage of blow by, with that in mind more is not better, this can also be measured with a leak down tester. Personally I am looking to make more power in a saw but not at the cost of reliability and long term durability more blow by is not good so I do not run a single ring on a double ring piston. Keep having fun being yourself in your videos. Really enjoying your humor. 👍
@230e4 I am considering that the single ring will be less friction and less wear, but there are statements by ring companies and experiences of MCycle people who disagree and claim a decrease in longevity. Of course, if one searches long enough, surely one could find someone/a business claiming that no rings are the only right way. Blow-by!! That is a fair consideration; as I understand, it can be a compounding problem in that each stroke heats up the lower case by an amount and the amount keeps increasing due to a hotter and hotter charge going up the transfers. For me, I think it's an exercise in attempting to quantify the point that gains outweigh losses. In the very end, it's going to come down to use preference and the intended use of the saw. The saw did give the impression of more power due to the snappiness and a little higher cut range. I am curious to look for evidence of blowby in the bottom end when I take the saw apart for the next testing. I understand both sides of the discussion and have yet to make a decision; I'm kinda glad that I haven't because I can keep going forward with an unbiased opinion and hopefully not skew the results in-search-of a result which would justify my opinion. Thanks for your insight!!!
@@HayChaffandSawdust1 Your welcome. I appreciate what your doing. Back when I did some experiments with this on a MS361 I measured the compression and percentage of leak down. I tested several different rings as well, the Mahle rings produced the highest compression and least percentage of leak down in that saw. I find it all very interesting.
I appreciate all the work you put into these videos, and seeing the data rich results. Applied physics to help get more out of our chainsaws!
@jamiewykes8585 Many thanks: 1st, thanks for joining-in, 2nd, thanks expressing appreciation for the data-rich results (I always wonder if I'm going too far into the weeds); 3rdly , time is unforgiving; thanks for taking some of yours to comment!!.
Yes Sir , all about the learning
@joecasatelli4825 Agreed! I could be an honorary citizen of Missouri; I've gotta see/feel for myself, too. SHOW ME!!! 🕵️🔍
Thanks for replying🙂! I will be looking for the new videos. I should only need full throttle on take off. Much of my time will be at 1/2 throttle I imagine. But I will take some high rpm gains too haha👍. I’ll make a video with my test rig in a couple weeks. And let you know. Thanks again for all your hard work!!
@toddzilla6491 I won't make the promise that I will "ALWAYS" reply, but if I have ever missed a reply to ANYONE, it's due to a glitch on my end. So far, with my small channel, I am able to keep up and REALLY REALLY like the people who take time to talk to me down here. It's a double edged sword: it would be nice to have SOO many comments that I can't keep up... but then I wouldn't be able to keep up!!
Anyway, the upcoming build is nothing grand or exotic an can be done with minimal tools. It has a similar HP curve as stock, but just a 1/2 horse higher (15%+) from Highest RPM all the way down to clutch slip. I can't remember where you were at on porting experience; the video may be too remedial for your skill set; it's truly a beginner-level build that get the big easy gains.
This didn’t turn out quite like I expected either. I think you’re right about getting that extra bit of compression when the rpm comes down a little. As is often the case, the quest for answers brings about more questions. It makes me wonder about the effects it would have in a full on race build but I don’t really have any desire or reason to build one for that.
Also have to take into account the weight of that missing ring even though it would just be a couple grams. We are really down to splitting hairs here to even more of an extent than I thought. The practical side of me has a tough time leaving an empty ring land on a piston so I’ll probably just keep running two rings on two ring pistons. This is all just a hobby for me that quite frankly came out of nowhere anyways and a little bitty bit of HP here and there won’t matter much. It is nice when all those little bitties add up to a sizable measure though.
I can’t thank you enough for all the time you have invested into all this. And that poor 026 has been one heck of a dyno mule that’s for sure.
@FarmlessFarmer-xs1he I think there are some dang good thinking points in there which will/should translate into something better/bigger in the future. If I've calculated the reason for the loss, I have an idea of combatting it. It's sure nice to keep the ol brain-pan greased up and ready. I know *you* will understand the implications of doing a quasi-mundane task such as driving or mowing hay and allowing one's mind to roam. Of course, a rabbit jump up or someone pulls out in front of ya, and your mental chalkboard gets erased. All part of the fun!!
The ol' 026 is sure taking a beating, ain't she??!! I've put more bar oil through that saw than gasoline through my wood cutting saws. Keep a strain on 'er, Farmless!
I really enjoy your content . The out of the box thing you do are so very interesting .. Keep thinking of the little things. Thanks
@flashdu- Thanks for the kind words and especially for joining-in down here.
I think your idea of higher cylinder pressure above 4hp seems reasonable. I don't grasp how the drag from the extra ring caused such a sudden drop as rpm climbed though. Still loads to figure out obviously.
I'll have to have another go at those results charts when my brain is firing on more cylinders. Too many changing factors for me tonight.
Good video. Keep at it and you'll be turning out perfect cubes someday.
@Kevin.L_ I won't give my opinion as to the reason for the drop/rise; I do have an opinion, but would rather hear your uninfluenced thoughts!
It's sure give a cause to think, doesn't it!? Thanks Kevin!
@@HayChaffandSawdust1 I've spent some mental energy on this and come up empty handed. Extra weight and drag are obvious. I figure a single ring gets better lubrication from the under side and eliminates any pressure between the rings, but none of that explains the sharp drop off of the dual ring setup in my simple mind.
Guessing that you've already considered, or maybe tried, reducing the ring tension? That seems like the next step to cut down on friction/heat.
@Kevin.L_ I only mention your choice of word of "sharp drop off" due to the fact that I run my dyno sheet backwards of dyno joe's, but my lil ol pea brain shows sharper incline on the two ring; if I look at each 1/10th hp increase before the point they cross, there biggest gain in HP is at the highest RPM. It's almost like comparing the free-rev with a chainsaw with and without a chain; it will rev a lot higher without the chain... less drag. I've been focusing on both sides of the point at which the lines cross and am leaning that (single ring) hp gains left of the converging point are attributable to less drag/friction while the (two ring) gains at right of the point are attributable to less blow-by.
I hadn't considered attempting to attribute the sharpness of the incline to anything else as that satisfied my mind. It's a very similar curve (sharper incline) to the to baseline (same exhaust, timing, etc as this two-ring baseline) as the previous test with the long decomp/surface gap plug comparison. This baseline did show a little less HP than the previous test, but I didn't readjust carb for max hp and left it where I cut with it to compare the two.
I do intend to put-off the cylinder offset until after I do some more testing on this ring(s) thing; waiting on UPS to bring me more tools before I attempt another test though. ...and yes, lower tension and two rings!!
@@HayChaffandSawdust1 Drop off, incline doesn't matter, we both know we are talking about the left side of your curve. And yes, it's better to refer to the area above where they cross. I've watched so many of your videos that Joe's graphs are starting to look backwards. You've brainwashed me!
That cylinder offset should provide some interesting information, but it changes most everything about the engine and I'm not sure it's something many will try to replicate. You got some real motivation about this project. I'm impressed to say the least. The old "dog with a bone" phrase doesn't do you justice.
What kind of new tools are we going to see?
@Kevin.L_ Ok, glad we're on the same page. Each you and Archer have similar concerns/questions with the sharpness of the incline/decline. Being a long-time digester of information, I always look internally; therefore, I'm am wondering what ***I*** am missing; same as everyone watching, I'm also trying to digest the information and I don't think I have enough. I'm thinking that the biggest thing I'm missing (information wise) is attempting to conclude that the lack of gains, after the converging point, is due to loss of compression gasses past the rings or ring gap(s). There's only @2/10 difference on the high rpm side of the converging point (give me that for argument's sake... it's about that at 11.5K; less above and more below). 1/10 of the difference was accounted-for in friction; some more can be attributable to inertia (that's another story and "problem" with my dyno and Dyno Joe's dyno that I'm attempting to negate in MY dyno), and I *think* the rest is blow-by. The "tool" is a leak-down tester which will give a reading of percentage of leak down. I will never be able to split he atoms in this, but I can quantify as many as I can; hopefully we can paint it into a corner. I'm sure that smarter people than I have tried and failed, but I'm going to give it a whirl. I'm not even trying to put an end to the discussions and speculations all over the internet... I just want to convince myself... one way or the other.
Could you use a digital torque gauge that has memory, chuck it in a drill and spin the saw with plug out and compare readings from single ring to two ring that way?
@MrJeepfreak1972 That was my original idea, too. The two-ring was in the neighborhood or 3 inch/pounds and my in/lb gauge only goes down to 10. Of course, the single ring was far less.
Dang good idea though. Hope all's been well with you and your loved ones!
@HayChaffandSawdust1
Great minds think alike? Lol.
All is well here. I hope the Hylomar blue works out for you. Its great stuff.
@MrJeepfreak1972 I have not tried the full effects of it yet; it worked well for assembly; I'm anxious to see the cleanup after disassembly. Thanks for the pointer; I couldn't remember WHO told me when I was using it and recording!! Thanks again!!
@HayChaffandSawdust1
Clean up is a breeze. It more like a soft, sticky wax than rubber like the other sealants. Brake cleaner and a rag take care of it.
@MrJeepfreak1972 Thanks; wasn't sure; I observed, that on the side of the box of sealer, they offer a cleaner/release agent as well. I was hoping it was just something simple like brake clean.
Very good break down
@coxsaws Thank you, sir!
That song was awesome! Is it available for download anywhere?
@justincredible7168 At the risk of sounding obtuse, I'm not sure. It is its own video without the chainsaw background noise. Does that help? Thanks for the kind words and for joining in!
My wife trained me to not laugh at married jokes. 🤭
@saltrock9642 If you watch REAL close, you could probably see me flinch when I said it 😂 Some people (me) *JUST* won't learn. 😉🙄
Anyone make a gapless top ring for these saws ?
@paulgood2218 None of which I'm aware, but maybe someone else can/will chime in other info??
that would be great😅
Do you have any opinion on longer vs shorter intake runner length.
I’m working with a MS250 engine. It’s not in a chainsaw but a big ass model airplane. I have a 1” header and tuned pipe built. And am making two carb adaptors one short like on the saw and one long for comparison. I’m thinking longer will create more low end torque.
@toddzilla6491 I wouldn't be surprised if you were to gain low end torque as well as higher RPM gains. Within reason, I think longer is better... to a point. If too long, there will be too much "friction" (shear) along the surface; a 50' 5/8 garden hose will not flow as much as a 6" 5/8 garden hose even though they are the same volume of cross section. I think there are gains to be had, though! That little 250 engine has a LOT of room for improvement. I have a 3-part series coming in a month or so going from 2.99HP to 3.5Hp VERY EASILY with "home gamer" tools.
Enjoy your testing experiments here. Question on the exhaust temp. Do you think that the single ring is lower because temps are bypassing the one ring to the lower crankcase? It would be interesting to somehow take crankcase temps in this process to see how much is going to the lower end bearing. Or maybe I have a strange light bulb that goes off in my head. 😆👍
@sunbear1973 That's a doozie of a question; I do think it is possible; I think the hot compression gasses and partially burnt combustion gasses are going by the rings; that would do two things; the compression gasses AND Combustion gasses would both/either be much hotter than the intake thru the carb; this heats the next compression charge and the problem becomes exponential thereby lowering HP (lower exhaust temp) as well as regurgitating compression and unburned combustion gasses back into the lower end; any extra fuel is added to an already-correct charge in the lower end; this will cause the next compression charge to be hotter, but also much richer; I think the rich condition coupled with the lower HP could/would lower exhaust temps. That's just my kneejerk thoughts on it; I plan to get back to the thin ring and single ring testing as time allows; I have 5 new sets of rings and developed a very cool way of thinning the rings in a far-more-precise manner. Good question!! I have a theory, but that's about it as of now. Thanks for being here and joining-in!!
@sunbear1973 Forgot to add: to get crankcase temps, I would have to compromise the lower case by drilling a hole and just hoping and praying that I don't get a vac leak around the thermocouple; and, once the testing is complete, I would have a permanent hole in a genuine case. I've thought about the next test mule saw and doing just that though as it will probably spend its whole existence on the bench, dyno, and making cookies for test cuts. A feller has to have dreams/plans; if he didn't, he might would fall right asleep at night instead of turning in bed like a gas station hot dog while trying to figure out the next "problem".
@@HayChaffandSawdust1 🤣 I hear you and keep up the learning and entertainment 👍
my 026 ported build and my ms200t ported build have 1 ring thanks to tinmansaws I also came up with a parasitic draw test it's in going over my collection and it was on a 115cc 075 cylinder so it's real😊
@tomintexas817 I, too, really enjoyed doing the parasitic draw and blowby tests with the rings. I probably spent way to much time building gadgets and figuring out the tests, but I had a good time; now I've got the stuff for next time!!
Your wife might disagree, but I love watching your shit
@jamiewykes8585 I have a benefit that most people don't; my sister is an eye-doctor; so, when my wife strains her eye-rolling muscles.... 😂😉🙄
Had to watch twice and think about it a bit. Could you have captured the peak HP loss that it in the theory of, you loose your off the top, at peak crankcase pressure transfer charge straight out of the exhaust on down stroke, because the lower ring groove allows this to open before the transfer opens to the piston top? It would be a small loss, and could be ignored if you wanted the other perks of running one ring. I believe Dyno Joe has made a lower ring filler before.
They sell lifetime fishing hunting licenses, for when a person is ready to stop dating the outdoors and commit to it 😂
@Archer_82 I like your reasoning and am not definite. I do remember Dyno Joe doing that and don't remember the results; I thought the plug showed no improvement. A considered opinion is that, while the empty ring gap is open, it has to go all the way around the piston to escape through the exhaust port; at the same time, the transfers are at their (near) highest pressures, but the exhaust is still evacuating and ALSO at a high pressure. Conversely, as the exhaust is leaving through the slight opening at top of the piston and flowing downward toward the bottom of the exhaust port, it would be causing a low-pressure area against the piston. I think the pressure of the transfers is low enough to make the losses through the ring gap miniscule.
ON THE OTHER HAND, I am contemplating that, since the power loss is WHERE it is, that the combustion gasses are at their highest and send a jet of hot gasses past the single ring gap. A two ring set up remedies that by offsetting the ring gaps thereby making a labyrinth ; the labyrinth seal offsets the losses due to ring gap... it takes (at least) two to make a labyrinth seal. I suspect I will see more carbon/ash/soot in the lower end when I disassemble the saw. If I see that, I can more-reliably conclude that the losses are due to blow-by. The blowby may also be impacting exhaust temps by regurgitating hot combustion gasses through the normally-cooler intake charge?
I agree on the lifetime fishing license... same rules apply: no fishing out of season, no trespassing, STRICT "bag" limit, safety vest optional, only one pole in the water at a time, etc... 😉😂
@@HayChaffandSawdust1I completely misspoke by saying ring gap. I should have said the lower, empty piston ring groove, but I think you understood what I had meant. I guess I wonder how many degrees of rotation there are between the lower ring groove opening to the exhaust, and the transfers opening, how many degrees of exhaust blowdown have already occurred, prior to this grove being opened to the exhaust port. Is the exhaust pressure low enough for transfer through this gap? I’d would be a very low volume. Could you tune to overcome it? You said you did not adjust the carb but could have tuned for max HP.
I could be just complicating this and it is measuring loss from failed compression, the pressure test came back extremely close, but it could be different under load, though, the existing ring gap (right word this time) should close up as the piston heats up… it’s muddy water.. a lot to think about
@Archer_82 "It's muddy water..." ; You said a mouthful there!!! I'm not sure if you CAN tune around combustion gasses getting back into the lower case as it's a exponential problem; the combustion gasses heat the lower case which heats the fuel/air; in turn, it puts a hotter charge on top of the cylinder and makes an EVEN HOTTER gas leaking into t lower cyl (anyway, that's what one of the major ring manufacturers claim with 2 strokes). Good thoughts and great points to consider!!
O my love the song 😅😂😅
@camrynrhodes798 🤣😂 Yeah, I'm about a half a bubble off 😉🤫🤫 Is that a Highland in your profile pic??
😂😂😂 Annual renewal on a marriage license. 😂😂 Your dyno results are mirroring exactly the perceived feeling one gets from removing a ring on a two ring piston and or also lessening the tension on the ring. In my thinking the rings on a two ring piston, their thickness, tension, and overlap have all been engineered to provide the least amount of blow by throughout the entire RPM range. By removing a ring one is taking that away from the two ring design. A comparison I would love to see on a dyno is the single ring 371xp piston (actually designed to run a single ring) versus a 372xp twin ring piston. I have built the 372 with both pistons and tend to favor the OEM 371xp single ring. My 372's built both ways are holding up equally well. Every engine has a percentage of blow by, with that in mind more is not better, this can also be measured with a leak down tester. Personally I am looking to make more power in a saw but not at the cost of reliability and long term durability more blow by is not good so I do not run a single ring on a double ring piston. Keep having fun being yourself in your videos. Really enjoying your humor. 👍
@230e4 I am considering that the single ring will be less friction and less wear, but there are statements by ring companies and experiences of MCycle people who disagree and claim a decrease in longevity. Of course, if one searches long enough, surely one could find someone/a business claiming that no rings are the only right way.
Blow-by!! That is a fair consideration; as I understand, it can be a compounding problem in that each stroke heats up the lower case by an amount and the amount keeps increasing due to a hotter and hotter charge going up the transfers. For me, I think it's an exercise in attempting to quantify the point that gains outweigh losses. In the very end, it's going to come down to use preference and the intended use of the saw. The saw did give the impression of more power due to the snappiness and a little higher cut range. I am curious to look for evidence of blowby in the bottom end when I take the saw apart for the next testing. I understand both sides of the discussion and have yet to make a decision; I'm kinda glad that I haven't because I can keep going forward with an unbiased opinion and hopefully not skew the results in-search-of a result which would justify my opinion. Thanks for your insight!!!
@@HayChaffandSawdust1 Your welcome. I appreciate what your doing. Back when I did some experiments with this on a MS361 I measured the compression and percentage of leak down. I tested several different rings as well, the Mahle rings produced the highest compression and least percentage of leak down in that saw. I find it all very interesting.
Liking the parody
@ClydeDavis-qw8lo Thanks!! I enjoy making them. Thanks for joining-in!!