Dating Advice, Attractiveness & Relationships (with Macken Murphy)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 ส.ค. 2024
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We discuss dating, attractiveness, relationships and the Red Pill / Manosphere with anthropology researcher and host of the "Species" podcast Macken Murphy
A link to his website is here: www.mackenmurp...
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Folks, the topic of war deserved a more thorough treatment, I apologize for skimming through it. I gave short shrift to the opposing "dove" view, and didn't cover the evidence for the "hawk" view of human evolution particularly thoroughly. Recommended reading, for those interested in how hunter-gather warfare is often similar (and, in some ways, very different) from intergroup aggression in chimpanzees: Wrangham & Glowacki, (2012) "Intergroup Aggression in Chimpanzees and War in Nomadic Hunter-Gatherers," Human Nature.
@@Dimitris_Half thanks mate that actually means a lot. Felt like I was being unclear for a lot of it.
I get you. One has to skim some stuffs to maintain the flow of the conversation, and you added words to clarify ("not disparagingly, talking in general, speculative, etc."). Don't worry about it, the entire discussion is very academic, and I think people get your point.
You guys have attracted every redpiller to the comments section
Real
What’s that
@@salan1689if you want answers I might be able to give one. If you prefer peace, scroll ahead. So the redpill group of people, comprising around 90%men is a group angry at the world about many things, but their sole focus is on how dating in modern times is skewed in women's favour. They often discuss tactics, women to avoid, how to rizz(I hate using that word cus it doesn't have a negative connotation)up women and have multiple partners. Sprinkled in with general life advice about building yourself up(financially, emotionally and even physically). The former is where they're viewed as problematic by many as their discussion often comes at the price of women's integrity. And stuff. That's about it really. I hate that that's the largest available source of a community to guys because many random shmucks like myself at one point may have fallen down into the rabbit hole with no way out.
😂
@@salan1689tate fanboys
To those wondering: No matter how good looking you "naturally" are, this affects only the first few impressions of a person. The rest is good personality (easily neglected as it is the hardest to be fixed), compatability with the other person (not everyone has to be into you, I also assume you are not into everyone) and hygiene.
The hardest part of being in a relationship is staying and giving love and support to the other person and pushing them to be a better version of themselves. Most people are not fully capable of that. I fact, more people can be considered physically attractive than good partners.
Also, if you feel that people will be so biased towards your appearance, then you should try to judge the others less and also be more kind to yourself.
Those first impressions are what starts a romantic relationship in the first place. There's no point in working on any other aspect at the expense of attractiveness if you can't even get the game started in the first place.
@@PaperySlothexactly right. Sentiments like the original comment are nice but I can confidently say that, as an attractive person with an awful personality, I have had so much more relationship experience than some of my friends that I know for a fact are great, incredibly charismatic guys who happen to have been given some unfortunate noses and heights...and please don't try to fault them for lack of trying.
@@LordSerpent i hate this world man.
in 2023, first impression is all that matters, since no one is going to invest time in figuring out your personality.
Choose with purpose - good moral character creates more successful relationships than superficial relationships.
What we will experience with someone is what's internal. Personality and character.
Attraction romance and chemistry does not create relationship success.
I really liked how Macken addressed these topics and explained his opinions. True academic and it felt like a good human being too
I think the more we listen to gurus instead of people who have lived long lives of partnership, the more we confuse ourselves.
The blind are leading the blind rn
I can't agree more on this
2/3rd of being what you call do conventionally attractive is finding a haircut that fits your face, maintaining good hygiene maintaining physical fitness, and if you can’t do that, wear clothes that fit you. this isn’t even taking account personality which probably also needs some work
Personality = friendzone
Basically if you are balding it’s over for you
@@ponternaldidnt realise the the whole "maintaining good hygiene maintaining physical fitness, and..., wear clothes that fit you" part is determined by if you have hair on your head.
@@greggronson6859so woman like to be around boring people?
@@Dimitris_Half "no woman gives a f about baldness" Now, that's just copium, bro
Saw a video from 8 years ago from you on suicide and was pleasantly suprised to see you were still uploading after all these years.
🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation:
🎓 Macken Murphy, a researcher and writer, discusses his background in studying human mating behavior and evolutionary anthropology.
🤔 Murphy's interest initially focused on evolutionary psychology, later shifting to topics like violence and its connection to reproduction.
🌐 Human behavior, seemingly unrelated to reproduction, often has direct relevance to mating behavior and signaling.
💣 Discussion on chimpanzee warfare as a potential link to understanding human warfare and its reproductive roots.
🤨 Murphy addresses criticisms of anthropologist Napoleon Chagnon and the controversy surrounding his portrayal of certain groups.
🔄 Transition to discussing the "manosphere" and red pill ideologies, highlighting a specific claim related to women evolving to fall in love with kidnappers.
🚫 Discrediting red pill claims, such as women evolving to fall for kidnappers, emphasizing lack of evidence and flawed reasoning.
💑 Evaluation of the red pill concept of hypergamy, exploring nuances in mating preferences across variables like status, education, wealth, and looks.
💑 The video discusses the perception of mate value and how women are often viewed as more selective in mate selection.
🔄 The concept of hypergamy is explored, highlighting the complexity of labeling relationships as hypergamous.
🤔 The discussion delves into the motivations behind certain groups' strict and rigid rules in dating, often driven by a lack of success or bitterness.
📱 The impact of dating apps on modern romance is explored, with a focus on how they increase the availability of alternatives, potentially affecting relationship satisfaction.
🧬 Insights into human monogamy suggest that serial monogamy with occasional infidelity is the default state, with biological correlates supporting this pattern.
🔄 Polyamorous relationships are discussed, acknowledging the challenges and variations in human preferences but suggesting monogamy aligns with human nature.
🌟 Practical dating advice is offered, emphasizing the importance of raising one's mate value, improving physical appearance, and being pleasant interpersonally.
🤝 Relationship maintenance tips include complimenting more than criticizing and incorporating non-sexual physical touch to strengthen the bond.
🛏️ Intimate, non-sexual touch like cuddling and kissing promotes stable relationships.
🍑 Regular, satisfying sexual activity is predictive of healthy relationships from a research perspective.
🌟 Novelty and spontaneity, such as trying new activities or surprising each other, contribute to relationship satisfaction.
🤝 Complementing more than criticizing and helping each other without expecting a balanced scale fosters relationship stability.
❌ Tallying favors and keeping score in relationships can lead to unnecessary conflicts, and it's advised to avoid such a mindset.
💔 Dealing with heartache and breakups lacks clear, research-supported strategies, but some suggest no contact and removing oneself can help.
🤷♂️ Gender differences in coping with breakups exist, with women often perceived to have a harder time, although the evidence is not definitive.
🧬 A surprising finding suggests a genetic component in romantic behaviors, such as divorce and infidelity, as indicated by twin studies.
Made with HARPA AI
OMG WHAT IS WITH ALL OF THE MAN HATING COMMENTS??
How on earth does he think only humans and other apes have wars, what about ants.
the structure is different from small-scale human warfare and chimpanzee warfare (which involves small groups of "raiding parties" picking off males from the neighboring group). Some say intergroup ant conflict is a good analogy for war, some say it isn't. Point about relatedness still stands.
@@murphymacken i see what youre saying now that makes sense, great explanation!
what if u just find out how to love yourself
The solution to most things, I’d say; to undo our childhood and grow as a person.
I love this collab!!
Thanks!
I don’t think neither of these guys have struggled with dating. In terms of physical attractiveness, both are above average. You’re great Sisyphus but I will not be taking dating advice from very two good looking fellas.
I mean they are attractive, which means more experience, which means the advice is actually *solid*
@chaitanya8126 the problem is they don't see things or perspectives the way an average or unattractive person would see them. They see success where others would see failure for practicing the exact same things because of their appearance. Appearance is less important to them because they are not getting filtered out because of it.
That's not a relevant discussion considering he's a researcher on human mating behavior. Also, physical attractiveness is only part of the equation. Other not-so changeable variables are your personality, social competence, environment, cultural background etc.
Don't just take advice from people based on their looks. Look at the science. Not saying this guy is a good scientist btw, just that his appearance is irrelevant.
they are pretty normal looking idk what you mean, no model looking ass god here
@@valentinbonnarde9345 Physical attraction is the most important part of the equation when it comes to dating. Most humans reject or accept people's romantic advances within a couple seconds of meeting them in their minds. If a woman doesn't find you physically attractive, she has already rejected you before you could open your mouth.
Best dating advice is 1. Be good looking 2. Don’t be ugly 3. Don’t be asshole
1 and 2 can torture the mind
#3 is very optional
God who are y'all? 😅 how many personal relationships are you basing this on? Attractions is SOOOO personal, down to liking how someone else naturally smells, which is NOT changeable and has little to do with common standards of attraction. If you're an asshole, you will NOT have a relationship, at least not in the sense that it is a mutually beneficial cooperative success (and not in fact a way for you to flash to other dudes that you are, beyond a shadow of a doubt, fuckable. I'm assuming based on your numbered tier this is what you mean by relationship lol). Forgive me because I do also watch videos on relational advice and the like, but I can't for the life of me understand how one could create an algorithm that results in Sexual Success, rather than relating to the specific person you are interested and digging further into those connections. Seems utterly lazy and FULL of cowardice.
I do feel we're all suffering by not tuning into to whom and why we experience personal attraction. This has little to do with common ideas of hotness.
@@Dimitris_Half oh no haha dont worry. Im just having a horrible time. Im so sorry. I didnt expect a reply
@@Dimitris_Half no i dont wanna insult. What made you think that?
Macken, they WOULD ask you why you study pigeons.
It seems a shame where our introduction, to any talk, deserves the delivery of our academic acknowledgements.
We seem to only be able to have a debate, unless we get our balls on the table and say, I'm better than you at doing this.
So, no-one else can contribute to the debate.
I think, if you espouse a regime of war, like the modern american does. then that is what you will get.
The modern American still does not get this, just like the modern European.
Look at this debate, it is between 2 men.
it's not getting your balls on the table, it's on someways admitting that you've committed to studying the subject You're speaking on and in this particular path adhere to a certain standard of practice. It signals to those who want to hear from that perspective. If you hate this, by all means leave.
I personally am not listening to a 7 year old speak on relationships.
Make the conversation that includes a woman.
Nice to know the source of that voice. I put you in background. Relaxing. ❤️
17:31 on the Zulu man preference part it's true most of us are in to very heavy woman. That's why fat shaming is close to none existing here
Hearing about the downstream effects of the preference difference is interesting, thank you!
I'd be interested to know if the opposite is true, then. Are some people pushed to be less skinny because there is a general preference towards being heavier?
where are ladies into fat guys. i wanna go there :)
This format is way better imo.
@murphymacken not once mentioned the fact that monogamy is enforced by society. It would be like saying robbing banks is unnatural because the data shows a relatively small subset of the population engaging in such behavior-sure, but that’s arguably because our restitutive law system punishes it harshly.
I’d argue that anarchy is unnatural. Humans prefer the safety of the status quo
It’s not enforced by society and he explains this in many of his videos on his channel.
whats with the deleted video? "what is like being on the other side of a crush?" maybe got copyright striked?
When I clicked on the video notification, it said that it has been removed by the uploader. Hmmm weird.
@@lanceivan7730 sad
Right?? I really wanna see it 😭 it's absolutely perfect for the situation i am in rn :')
23:00 "dating apps arent a good representation of reality"
My dude dating apps are literally part of the reality of dating
True. I met my first boyfriend on Tinder.
One part, go outside
Only if you use them???
go look at the data on how new relationships are formed these days, and then come back and tell me the #1 way 🙄
@crystal_pepsi idk did you try #2 or #3?
suuuuper interesting! thank you ! :)
Thanks!
I think actually the anthropologist explaining war was wrong at least in so far as rape still being a part of war as we can most recently see in the war in Ukraine.
That's very different from it being a motivating factor for the war itself (as it sometimes has been, and sometimes hasn't, in small scale warfare).
@murphymacken im going to make a argument that grape (or forcible access to reproductive opportunity ) is a possible motivation if we take peter zeigans work seriously there are far fewer russian births than ukrainian births and the genera beleif was since russia will beco e a shrinking minority the oligarchs in russia assumed they could "russ-ify" any children born from thenew annexed territory. Jus as they did during the soviet takeover of ukrane.
@@DeandreSteven That's not true at all. First off, Ukrainian Birth rates per woman have been lower than Russia's since 1991. Birth rates are falling all over Eastern Europe. That's bad evidence when there's so many other better motivating factors. Competition on grain and oil, as natural gas fields were found in ukraine in the past decade, geopolitical positioning, etc. A better argument is that Russia is trying to shore up it's economics before it's demographic collapse while putting one of it's biggest competitors out of the market and gaining resources. Oligarchs in Russia are just like oligarchs everywhere, we don't live in the medieval era, they calculate and scheme just like the ones who started the war in Iraq did. Not to do a what-aboutism, I deplore imperialism everywhere, in many wars the USA has fought in, american troops have committed sexual assault, on mass scale in some cases (My Lai Massacre). It would be strange to argue the motives for both the invasion Ukraine and Vietnam are the same then. Post-Industrial wars are motivated by the interests of each nation-state's elites, not by mating.
Thanks to Macken Murphy for taking the time to be a guest on the Podcast, its nice to hear different viewpoints.
I want to express some discontent though. And im wondering if sisyphus disclosed any of his questions to macken beforehand. If he didnt, it might have made for a more interesting conversation *if he had (edit).
I was a bit disturbed to hear what seems like a lot of internalized "folk wisdom", and a lot of connecting dots that dont necessarily exist. Now, i havent read the research, so maybe its just a communication issue. But for example it was said "most people cheat". A quick google search shows that, at least on the surface, thats just factually untrue.
But other than that theres just a lot of speculative conclusions (that to his credit he did say "i havent been reading about this recently") that are made with little evidence or shaky logic.
For example with the "only one other species engages in warfare". This can be interpreted in the exact opposite way. Because theres only one other species our sample size for whether warfare is "natural" is only 2. So it actually makes it difficult to make conclusions about ourselves based on another species. Of course there is always nuance, like they are a close evolutionary relative. But it feels like nuance was left at the door for most of this hour long discussion.
I know i typed a whole ass essay lol but it felt important to say
No questions were provided in advance. Sorry to disappoint :(
@@murphymacken thanks for the respectful reply! I still enjoyed listening to you guys!
The warfare thing is also total nonsense. Octopi are literally right now in a war over dwindling resources in the great barrier reef outside Australia, ant colonies war with each other all the time, same with most other social, aggressive, group animals.
Smash x2
Beep bop beep boop
Two handsome giga-chads give dating advice to the unwashed masses of 20-somethings who probably don't even break a 6 out of 10. Not for nothing here fellas, but this is like Wayne Gretsky giving hockey advice to a kid in leg braces.
Neither is a gigachad. They are slightly above average in looks and clean.
@@TuffLuv1984odk macken Murphy is a solid 9, sisyphus is at least a 7
So hot people can’t have hot takes? Seems fallacious and bitter of u 😂
@@benfennell6842 all I am hearing is that you are very attracted to Macken.
this is exhausting I hate this.
Am I the only one that found this video a bit ignorant and arrogant? I also found Macken’s ability to stay on topic to be difficult - regularly straying from the question and not coming back to the original topic.
Bummer; sorry I came across that way.
@@murphymacken no worries mate, an interesting conversation overall!
What's up with the incels and doomers in the comments?
Incels and doomers? l dont see those kind of commets yet. Are you from the future?
@ivan55599 he talk8ng about the comments of those who doubt their points because the hosts are "Good looking"
All the people who want to get out of the red or black pill space but are having some growing pains I assume
I mean, they're trying to get out of those spirals so let's coax into bettering themselves instead of doing the mean girl, over the shoulder "What's their deal?"
@@nangsanbhalangblah333 yeah you're probably right. It's my fault, sometimes I just get triggered and it's especially easier on the internet.
When DR K
I think if everyone isnt consumed with infatuation and lust, we could all think more clearly.
That being said, i personally believe in the idea of courtship even tho its outdated and I'm only 24.
Courtship is when you talk to only 1 man or woman at a time and actually get to know them without having sex so we can access and actually see what type of person they are and not how they make us feel.
Example: If i am courting 1 girl, i am interested in her enough to SEE A FUTURE (because you don't court or date a girl you dont see yourself marrying) not just some short term fwb situation (which is a girlfriend these days bcoz they rarely get married). I get to know the girl on a deep level and she gets to know me and . We are actually taking the time to see if we are compatible....if i like her habits, character etc...
If she drinks, likes dressing sexy and posting thirst traps online knowing many men is lusting after her, or I end up not really connecting with her or any other reason I find my intuition telling me, I simply and respectfully end the courtship , "I'm sorry I dont believe we are compatible" and we go about our lives.
And the good thing is were not attached in a wrong way...like how girlfriend's and boyfriends are attached these days....how they dont want to break up but they dont want to get married either.................... 🤔
Ask yourself, "why are they in a committed relationship but don't just get married...?" I'm not idolizing marriage, I am just wondering why the modern gf/ bf relationship never turns into a lifelong commitment towards one another by making those vows in front of a alter in front of God?
For the reader, consider observing this bf/gf relationship
My friend and his gf has been together for years but he says he is unsure of being married while she asks him if they will get married one day. Why buy the cow when you get the milk for free.
A relationship isn't a FWB situation just because you don't actively plan for marriage. Half of the people end up divorcing, so I don't know why you pretend like marriages are so different to a relationship without marriage. If you get any experience dating you will probably realize why the "courtship" you describe is impractical in real life.
@@JohnDoe-jp4em Ok, if a couple (bf and gf ) loveeeee each other so much, why dont they commit to a lifelong matrimony? Because I would think if you love someone, you would at least risk taking a chance knowing that 50% of divorces happen?
@@Dimitris_Half 😄 I'm outside it's nice out here
@@JohnDoe-jp4em And you're correct to a certain extent. What's different about a marriage and relationship? Marriage is saying "we will have arguments or tension sometimes and maybe breakup but we are never allowed to give up on each other." You can just breakup with a gf when youre tired of her or find a hotter girl.
@@12Messenger Most people break up long before they are legally divorced, marriage just adds legal procedures. Breaking up is just as easy as before. Most people aren't crazy in love all the time with their partner, including the people that marry. This just isn't how relationships work and if a couple never gets past their honeymoon phase I would suspect they have some codependency going on.
You seem to adhere to a very idealistic perception of love and relationships. Just because people aren't confident they're going to be together for the next 30 years doesn't mean what they have is nothing. It is irrational to be so sure of any relationship given the statistics, since the 50% of people that divorced are the ones that even made it past the initial relationship stage.
In the past people just didn't have the choice to divorce and people didn't spend years searching for their partner either, they took the first one that was available and not a trainwreck. "Courtship" didn't work the way you plan on practicing it in the past.
Nah, didn't do it for me. Too many hmmm moments
Reasons : genetics and differences in different groups of people probably made him uncomfortable so he chose an easier scientific pill to swallow lol
projecting much?
You did listen to the whole thing and how he dissects information lol
2 hot guys talking about... sorry what were they... damn they're hot... wait whats this?... advice about... wait what? damn they're hot... help
learn what a fallacy is. hot people can still have hot takes 😂
Cool pod
Ants go to war all the time
As do many other animals
True but the structure is different from small-scale human warfare and chimpanzee warfare (which involves small groups of "raiding parties" picking off males from the neighboring group). Some say intergroup ant conflict is a good analogy for war, some say it isn't 🤷
Never been this early
With good looks and personality that still wouldn't guarantee a mate. Nowadays albeit not 100% the case, people date usually for some sort of gain. There's something they get out of it. Nowadays it's incredibly hard to date and I can honestly say it's all luck Bois. If you can find a mate that isn't solely looking for a distraction, validation or again some sort of gain, you've effectively won the lottery
Adult relationships are always conditional
Evolutionary psychology is peak pseudoscience, and I'm rather disappointed you're platforming and endorsing this pseudoscience on your channel.
Cope
Go away then 😂 plenty of universities believe and research evolution
44:00
It’s interesting to hear someone so scientific like MM making broad generalizations about a vaguely defined group like the red pill community.
So polyamory is natural or unnatural?
Our natural mode of mating, inasmuch as we have one, is serial monogamy coupled with occasional infidelity.
Im glad you gave the guy fair shake, but i dunno how he has a job in this "business."
28:19
31:40
37:25
You dont change a tire without lifting the car up, amd you dont have success in dating witgout being attractive. Attractiveness precludes any sort of advice anyone can give, end of.
If it's a Citroen hidropneumatic, you do actually change the tire without lifting the car. As for advice, IDK, get a retro Citroen?
@@Dimitris_Halfand you cant actually date if no one wants to date you the moment they see your face.
You'll just end up with a bunch of girl friends and being a girlfriend instead of being a boyfriend.
@Ant.1453 well, that goes without saying. You can't do anything if you don't go out and do it. I don't get your point
@@Dimitris_Halfinstead of being dismissive, you could engage with some authenticity. As someone engaged to be we'd, I never would have been if I didn't have some level of attractiveness present.
@@Dimitris_Halfwhere on earth did I intuit I have no self respect.
All you're doing is attacking the person behind the ones making the statements, not the statements themselves. Your logic is toilet paper if you can't stand by it.
Yooo new videoo ❤❤
Ahem…! What a woman says and how she actually behaves are two different things.
touch grass
Most of the research I cited is behavioral not survey data. See my conversation with Richard Cooper where I explain this at great length.
This can be said for literally any human, woman or man.
And man or woman, just most people in general suck.
Oh look its the sewerslide guy
Please for the love of FSM please take this subject away from the insufferable MaNOsPhErE.
You need to take men’s issues seriously instead saying “Well there are some issues here that are legitimate” then proceed to spend all your time being dismissive of said issues.
You need to push back against feminists who have misandrist ideas.
I expect more of what SD signifier does TBH though
cool
Step 1: Record the podcast
Step 2: Edit the recording, removing all the "um"s etc. so it sounds professional
Step 3: Publish the podcast.
You're skipping Step 2.
It’s a podcast bro
At that point there won't be any podcast left lol
Also those pauses really help the pacing tbh
oh no, silence and pauses, my brain isn't stimulated, noo
Step 4: be annoyed at people asking for Step 2 being suspicious of what was left out or that it feels rushed
Haters gonna hate
22:45 probably because they’re STEM nerds who didn’t get laid in college lol
Macken seems confused about hypergamy. Women dating alpha attractive men are not being hypergamous.