I worked for Shell Chemical Company's catalyst group that produced the Shell 405 hydrazine decomposition catalyst that made the F-16 EPU work. There were only a couple of technicians that qualified to make the catalyst in small batches in Shell's Houston lab. They were well aware that lives of F-16 pilots depended on them making a perfect product that gave them electrical power if they lost their only engine. The catalyst is made of iridium, a material that is about twice the cost of gold. Shell 405 is also used in steering impulse rockets on satellites and space vehicles. Since 2002 the catalyst (now called S-405) is produced by Aerojet Rocketdyne in Redmond, WA.
I know this catalyst and i used to repack the catalyst beds on a vibrator fixture for the F 16 EPU early 80s. Then I hot fired it with H 70. I used a rig and PC measuring of my own design. Only problem: performance was on the high side. Had my AFs approval.
Then we all move into the comments section and some people talk with that level of confidence without knowing what they are talking about. Not just on fighter aircraft but on a lot of different subjects in the YT world.
Retire23 - My dad was a controller at TPA when this happened. I was a kid and watched this video many times. The final approach fix at TPA (JMBOB) is named after dad!
Yes it was because for me, not being a pilot, in portions of his conversation had a very hard time understanding what the pilot and his back seat rider were saying. CW and Richard sharing with us what was actually being said was invaluable.
I have to agree. The interview of the Sully controller is another amazing perspective. I got the perspective from the controller who handled my emergency. All the things that happen behind the scenes that you don’t hear about is very eye opening. Mover is not lying the controllers are busy when the button gets pushed.
Mr. Smith was an excellent controller, supervisor and instructor (I worked for and with him). He is as real as they come and is a quality individual to boot. [Indeed]
This was awesome, hopefully a new respect for ATC. Much like maintainers, they are many times the forgotten heroes. Many THANKS to all for keeping them flying and landing safely.👍🇺🇸🥰
I was based at Suncoast Aviation when this happened. I can't believe a video has surfaced! They posted armed guards around the F-16 on our ramp for a few days before they decided to truck it to MacDill instead of changing the engine on the field. Rocket - remember all of the traffic reporting planes and The Route? I was Suncoast 101. You guys were great to work with.
I was also a controller and commercial/corporate pilot and flight instructor. I worked McCarran tower/TRACON in Vegas, '77-79, and we provided approach control service for Nellis.... and Red Flag. It wasn't uncommon to have upwards of 75 aircraft on frequency at any given time. I recall almost every Red Flag recovery having at least one aircraft on an emergency recovery, and the most I ever had at one time was four emergency aircraft, with two of them a mid-air they were trying to get back. The 'relaxed, self confident' voice of the pilot and the same from the controller, giving him a... "Don't worry, boss! I'll get you down OK, and we'll knock down a Bombay Sapphire martini at the club at 1700 hours" voice of confidence makes all the difference. One of my best friends was a two-tour, Thud Wild Weasel pilot back in the 60s. Some of his war stories were enough to make even me nervous! Thanks for sharing this incident. Richard's nickname as "Rocket?" My controller initials were "MD," which everyone in the TRACON said stood for... "Mister Dynamic." Check out my autobiography; "BROKEN CONTROLLER: an Air Traffic Controllers Story."
Owen, I lost 28 minutes. And I'm late leaving work. So, this was definitely one of the most enthralling videos I have personally watched. My compliments to Richard, and C.W. for presenting it. Thank you both. And my hat's off to the pilot and his passenger (passenger for not leaving the jet while it was still flying and planting his Reebok's on the deck). Also a shout out to all the other's involved in this event.
One of the best, most in-depth ep reviews I've seen... def cool to hear from one of the actual controllers that played a part in this successful recovery. Especially considering how tight the alt tolerance was to make it in... thank God for all those professionals who played a roll in the outcome. 100% A+, thanks Mover.
Breathless video…. When I blew the engine in my Cessna 150 too far from the runway at Little Rock AFB, THE TOWER SAID “ let me know how it goes” and signed off…
I am an old retired controller. I worked at MacDill AFB in the mid 70s. We had 80 F4 Phantoms then. Great story. Took a back seat FAM ride on an F-16 out of JAX about 1990 or so. Thrill of a lifetime.
I had finished my F-16 training at MacDill and then saw another F-16 flameout and landing (through the weather!) on the news. He was a Guard pilot if I remember correctly. I remember a young Jane Pauly interviewing the pilot in person shortly after it happened and she was all gaga eyes over him. One thing that upsets me is after I retired and transitioned to the airlines, both the airlines and the FAA don't think former fighter pilots know anything about CRM - when in fact we used CRM MORE than the typical airline pilot.
You might want to look into the 1966 landing of Mirage A3-29 out of Williamtown (Australia) RAAF base. Gary Cooper brought her down after the fire went out on an abandoned air strip near the base. He had been ordered to Eject, but felt that doing so would result in the Mirage crashing into population. She had a belly tank fitted and was probably well over maximum landing weight. They towed her about ten miles back to the base on her own landing gear... He did well. A3-29 was lost about 20 years later in a mid air collision with her sister, A3-30. This happened in Queens land Australia. Both Pilots sadly perished. Last I checked, Gary Cooper was still with us. That saying about Old Bold Pilots was not true in this case....
"There are old pilots and there are bold pilots but there are no old bold pilots" is a saying that has existed almost as long as pilots have exisred! My dad was a WW2 bomber pilot.
That up down maneuver he does at the last minute is a maneuver us hang glider pilots did when we had too much speed on a short landing field. It is called a "pump stall". I've used it many times back in the day.
As a hang glider pilot and former F-16 test/IP with probably hundreds of simulated flame out landings to touchdown, I suggest it would have been much more appropriate to do a couple quick loaded S-turns.
As time goes on, fewer pilots will refer to distance as "DME", but "Say my distance to the runway" is better than "What's my DME", because the answer from a controller who takes that literally is to a navaid, which may not even be on the field. And, other than for wind drift corrections, getting a few new headings while still several miles out tells me I’m not proceeding straight to the pavement - the dogleg setup is nice, but when every foot counts, tell ATC you need "direct to the numbers". As a quick note about the stick pumps to bleed speed, there were T-38 guys who would stir the stick on inside downwind to waggle the slabs and create drag to get to gear/flap speed. I tried it too, but don't recall it accomplishing much. Great analysis guys and nice save by the IP!
I remember this event from the nightly news coverage shortly after it happened. The professionalism and the competency on display then was one of the things that enhanced my already extant desire to serve and fly. Thanks for sharing this with the controller angle included. Great teamwork in extremis.
Rather clear in this incident the instructor pilot had an extremely high awareness of the situation & the student not so much 😁. Well done by all that mattered, thanks for the great story Mr. Smith & Lemoine!
As a retired LE firearms and tactics instructor, I advise everyone to always "role-play" scenarios about your basic comings and goings, including your commute to and from work, the environment of your job/work and even a night on the town or simply going out to the supermarket for groceries. If you role-play in your mind all imagined scenarios, and what your best actions are in that scenario, then you will likely perform that course of action without thought or hesitation. Your mind has a "muscle memory" of its own. Take advantage of it...................................
I have no military or flying experience but I'm fascinated with high performance military jets. They're some of the most beautiful machines ever built... form and function of the aircraft and it's integration with the pilot, pilot training, and all the resources that combine to produce this capability. All the dedication, sacrifice and money involved on so many levels. Makes me proud to be an American. Proud that we've been able to maintain this for so long.
Excellent perspective from ATC guy! I flew for a living out of Bartow, FL back in the 70s and 80s. F-16s transiting from Avon Park Bombing range back to MacDill would often do a couple of simulated flame-out approaches into our airport. They just did a low approach and go-around for another. One day an engine failed on the go-around. Pilot punched out ok. F-16 crashed and burned on airport property. Fire truck headed to crash site then turned around when rounds started cooking off. (grin)
Gorgeous ! Space shuttle pilot by accident. I don't think that student quite got the message of how hairy that was until after he got out. I know I wouldn't. Hitting a hole in one is a lot more exiting when you absolutely have to. Prepping for ejection just to be on the safe side is encouraging too, even if ejecting is never a fun ride. Always good to know there's options. Beautiful !
ATCs often catch a lot of grief but I want to say that sincerely appreciate what they do for us pilots, particularly GA pilots who rarely have a copilot and frequently make minor mistakes with radio procedure.
Hey Mover, this reminds me of an incident that occurred in the early 90’s. I was an F-16 crew chief. I had just arrived at Kunsan AB, 35th TFS. About a month before, one of the 80th TFS D models went down off the coast while giving an 80th crew chief an incentive ride. Both punched out and were picked up shortly after. We had a rash of issues with the GE’s blowing out and there was a hold on using afterburner until GE got it worked out. At least that’s how I remember it. The joke at the time was that the back seater got the ultimate incentive ride. I think the pilots call sign was “Lurch” due to his height. Don’t know if you ever heard anything about that, but that’s how I recall it.
Yup. Block 30s with the F110 were limited to no AB for a while in those days. Funny, because I was just talking about it with someone else in a discussion about reliability between the F100-PW-229 and GE F110s. Pratts tend to have various levels of reliability when there are faults, whereas GE was either it worked, or no worky.
It was found to be an incorrectly assembled lube scavenge pump causing the failures from the vendor. The ROK jets were the first to get the common engine bay also and I cannot remember but I think that included the "big mouth" intake the GE needed.
Also there was another issue that caused problems for the F110, initially we were servicing it like the F100 by filling to overflow which the F110 did not like, very quickly GE identified that and changed it but I cannot remember the F110 procedure after all these years.
Absolutely fantastic co-ord. I recall seeing/using a video for CRM teaching & training back in the 90's of a single-seat fighter (F-16 I think) that lost all power (APU included) shortly after take-off, and required the controller to give him clock vectors back to the runway as he had no heading information on-board. If this sounds familiar to you, or any of your viewers, I'd love to see it again, and hear a more modern dissection of the event, as I stopped flying 25 years ago, and teaching 20 years ago. Thanks...
I was stationed at Kadena AFB from late 69' to 71' . We had a RF-105 lose it's engine north of the base...he tried to glide back to base... I remember the chopper bringing back what was left of that 105...sad.
This is outstanding work by all involved. Thanks Mover for sharing your guest and this experience. I have tested this in DCS and it is dicey with a Viper!
Very kickass vid, especially having spent a bit of time around MacDill and TPA, glad there were consummate professionals all around, feel sorry for the E2 that has to clean that backseat thought! Thanks to both of you, gentlemen!
I can confirm no GPS the INS system was being converted to Ring Laser Gyro. I remember this incident. The engine was shelled. It was a good thing the pilot didn't bleed off air speed by going nose up. The H70 Hydrazine would of separated from the catalyst in the generator and all power to the flight controls would have been lost. MacDill lost an aircraft to this type of failure. This was a very good pilot. I'm also a 2A071B from MacDill.
Even without GPS, if he had TPA as a waypoint he'd have gotten the waypoint symbol in the HUD which would have been invaluable. I never heard what the cloud base was but barring some other situational awareness cueing (like the proper waypoint dialed up) the cloudbase in thousands of feet would have been the proper distance in nm for final to target for a gear down final. (4K' AGL cloud base then target a 4nm mile final).
Richard Smith is a legit trainer, especially being a pilot himself. So true about needing a good controller in a circumstance like this giving him exactly what he needs immediately. Not asking him questions or other nonsense. That pilot was trusting that the controller was leading him right.
The Block30s had either the original FCCs or XFCCs which had very limited mission and display capabilities. The Ds were used exclusively for training. They also had a reliability problem with the FCCs, and it is lucky that the EP stayed up, and allowed the displays to be actually visible. We worked these reliability problems, and they were not fixed (nor retrofitted) until after the Block40s or 50s.
When I worked at TOPGUN, the CO at the time, "Wigs," did a practice F-16N idle-power 180 approach and landing at Miramar. I believe such things were "N/R," but then, he was the CO of TOPGUN!
I was a crew chief on F-4'S @ MacDill when they were transitioning to F-16's. What a wild and wooly time! Always something going on. We had a few landings as t TPA by mistake! Always embarrassing.
I remember an F16 losing its engine over Lake Michigan back in the 80s. If memory serves he made an emergency landing at Glen View NAS north of Chicago
I grew up in Glenview and was a fence rat for a while at Glenview Naval air station until it sadly closed in ‘95, taking pictures of planes and watching the action there. That dead stick F16 landing occurred at night as I recall, so neither me or any of the other plane watchers who hung out there witnessed it, which was around 87 or ‘88, but recall when it was in the news. It was a new F16 on a shakedown flight that flew from Ft Worth to meet a tanker offshore of Wisconsin to refuel, then fly back. It flamed out over the lake and was able to glide into Glenview and land with only minor damage. The base was located in a very populated Chicago suburban area so I question if what they did was prudent, safety wise. There was a garbage landfill and largely vacant area north of the base though, so if he’d come up short the plane likely wouldn’t have killed anyone. All is well that ends well so there is that! And if the pilot had chose to eject over the lake, his survival after ending up in the lake wouldn’t have been a sure thing, as hypothermia probably would have got him before the the coast guard helo got to the site.
Richard is correct about Tampa being an outstanding ATC facility. I've retired as a pilot, but their leadership and controllers lead to a safe and efficient piece of airspace. A gentleman named Ox was an example of great leadership.
Yeah, no GPS back then. Went thru RTU at MacDill in '91. May have had a steerpoint for KTPA though. We used destination steerpoints 21-25 for our alternates. Good he jettisoned his tanks early
good afternoon, mover and rocket, I used to work for the administration as a radio tech. on occasion, I've hung out and heard mil air traffic controllers giving intercept commands to an Interceptor for someone violating a TFR. this is exciting and terrifying what you're showing me. mover, do you have any comments about the F-15 hard contact during refueling the other day? Holy crap. That pilot did a dead stick, landing in an F-16, and that controller was awesome. I currently fly a very old citabria, and I intend to be an old pilot. All I can say if you are ever in that situation you put your flaps down and your gear down and you'll be your butt around a lot
For those asking 'why didn't they give him the longer runway?' . Once the F-16 lands its gonna sit for a long time due to Hydrazine protocols and after, getting it prepped to tow. AF will need to be on site for this. Per Pilot choice if 8300ft works for him he will take it. Especially if it involves less vectoring - remember his a/c is in a power out situation - No energy he is gliding. Other less urgent but still an issue is an active airfield with incoming /departures and lots of traffic. Many on direct approach / departing / taxiing , some of which need the longer runway and cannot divert to nearby because of that. AT / APCH and Grnd Controllers can divert and or put some aircraft in Holding. Depending on the situation they can pause all departures and or arrivals. Hold a/c on taxiways for the moment.
61st TFTS class 84 DBM here and then back as a RTU IP from 1988-1990. Honestlyndont remember this one and I was at Mac during that time frame. Nice job by the guys. Only thing I would add is why they didn’t slide over to the longer runway? I believe it is over 10,000 long. Not second guessing just pointing that out.🙂
I guess they would need the longer runway for the heavy commercials, and it was possible for the shorter one to be blocked by the F16. Am I on the right track?
@@yatespeterm I would think that the tower controller would have given him clearance to any runway he preferred. They could have easily sent the airliners around.
@@Ed-qn8my - Sent the airliners around for how long? The controllers know that F-16 isn't taxiing off the runway on its own power, so they'd have to wait for it to get towed off whatever runway it lands on. (They don't know about the hydrazine hazmat situation that would presumably delay a tow even further, unless they found that out from the fire crews.) I'm a little surprised nobody asked if that runway length was sufficient, though. I'm thinking they *could* even have told him ahead of time the other runway was available as an emergency option if he got below the clouds and realized that he couldn't dump enough speed to safely land on 18L. If he did that, then other traffic might have to divert to their alternate airports, so only if that's what it takes to not die.
the way that the pilot had full control and was like "can we make silence on the radio?" and stuff is amazing control and a good show of a prepared mind
Us maintenance folks HATED when nonners got incentive rides, IDGAF what anybody else thinks. We didn't take 2 hours out of our day to screw up PCS orders, paychecks, or all the other menial shit they did
In 1989, i was in the Army doing a Brigade change of command ceremony at Giebelstadt germany. The brigade was formed on the base runway when we had to flee the runway when an F16 made a dead stick landing.
Rocket, I recognize your voice. I flew private into TPA frequently, and was with TPD Aviation (back when we still have the Hughes 300s and the surplus OH-6s). You guys did amazing when we had a pursuit down 275, or Hillsborough, or Eisenhower, blasting right through your approaches. Somehow you always made it work... Saw that Viper sitting on the ramp for a while.
When the closest I've ever been to military aviation is my Dad was in the nose of a B29 in 1945 - but as an old fart civilian I found that informative and thrilling. Commenting to boost the YT machine.
Always look at the size of a pilot sitting in the cockpit of a F-16 and think he looks so small sitting in his glass bubble controlling this awesome machine, i think how can one man fly something so big and powerful, you's do everyday fantastic, a thing of beauty to watch, Man and Machine flying like their part of each other he/she knows every suttle move there bird makes, simply perfection ☘️🍺
To get the diamond for TPA, the coordinates would have to be one of the steerpoints (waypoints). Only having 20 back then, I expect he didn't have it loaded. So, not being able to select that waypoint, he couldn't get the diamond and associated data. Might be why wingman couldn't provide that info either (same steerpoint load) but could to MacDill. Also, the old INU with gyros and no GPS were spec'd to drift less than 0.8 nm in an hour. So, depending on how long he had been flying, the diamond could be quite far off. (That's why there are all the fix modes back in the day.)
Yeah the student could have re-purposed one of the steer points to Tampa but being a student I'd imagine he didn't get that far into it. The pilot was clearly too busy to be manually plugging in the data to Tampa.
I will say sometimes I get frustrated with the narration in these type videos. You guys did an awesome job of letting the video play but adding good information and narration at the right points. I was engaged for the full 32 minutes. Great video
Man, that was good. Love watching a calm, cool pilot do his thing when the hay in the barn runs out. That’s golden age astronaut stuff. Great teamwork in the tower.
I was on call in late 1986 or early 1987, at Kansan AB, when an F-16 called in that he was 13 minutes out, with 8 minutes of fuel remaining. My supervisor and I hooked up the hydrazine trailer and went to the taxiway. Just when the wheels touched down, the EPU fired. We had to wait for the pilot to get out before we could approach the jet. That never happens!!! Usually the jet is waiting on us to show up. Amazing day!!!
My work place show's everyone a similar video (don't think this is the one, might be). Where our unit (part) caused a flame out because of a defect from a supplier. From what I was told, they added additional inspection and tests so it won't happen again. From what I was told, we had the military at the facility every day that we were taking the unit apart to find out what failed. Everyone was on edge, like wearing depends, fearful of whose at fault.
I have footage of a Viper flameout landing at the Alpena CRTC Michigan, back in early 90’s. This pilot had to pull up to miss the fence, needless to say he never flew again, something about turning the fuel shutoff. My cousin Ret. Col. Ron Gunner Moore left me all his videos and pictures.
The F‐16 fighter uses a form of hydrazine (H‐70, 30% diluted by water) to power its emergency power unit (EPU). Hydrazine is corrosive, toxic, and highly flammable, which requires ground crews to have special handling protection, including self contained atmospheric protective ensemble suits.
Radio call at 25:45 requests wingman to provide winds from the FCNP, an A/B model block 1-15 component/display. Was FCNP and DED used interchangeably as pilots transitioned to block 25/30s? The 72nd was the last sq to transfer out A/B model block 10s before receiving block 25s, then block 30 GE small mouths . The 61st, 62nd and 63rd received new block 30 GE big mouths.
Closer to the 40 second mark but I caught the exact same exchange. So either they were actually in A/B models or that IP was an old head in a C/D model who just had FC/NP on the brain.
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When 30 minutes pass in what seems like 4 minutes you know it's good. Thanks, gentlemen.
I worked for Shell Chemical Company's catalyst group that produced the Shell 405 hydrazine decomposition catalyst that made the F-16 EPU work. There were only a couple of technicians that qualified to make the catalyst in small batches in Shell's Houston lab. They were well aware that lives of F-16 pilots depended on them making a perfect product that gave them electrical power if they lost their only engine.
The catalyst is made of iridium, a material that is about twice the cost of gold. Shell 405 is also used in steering impulse rockets on satellites and space vehicles. Since 2002 the catalyst (now called S-405) is produced by Aerojet Rocketdyne in Redmond, WA.
I know this catalyst and i used to repack the catalyst beds on a vibrator fixture for the F 16 EPU early 80s. Then I hot fired it with H 70. I used a rig and PC measuring of my own design. Only problem: performance was on the high side. Had my AFs approval.
I absolutely adore listening to people who speak so confidently and with knowledgeable language on a topic.
An utter treat. Thanks for this!
@mover does a great job selecting and interviewing guests. Love how he let's people tell their story without interuption
Then we all move into the comments section and some people talk with that level of confidence without knowing what they are talking about. Not just on fighter aircraft but on a lot of different subjects in the YT world.
Never listen to my combat comms because my bosses seldom did.
Well said
Retire23 - My dad was a controller at TPA when this happened. I was a kid and watched this video many times. The final approach fix at TPA (JMBOB) is named after dad!
Loved JimBob!. Great human being. Fun to work with!
C. W. - your interpretation of the radio chatter and giving a pilot’s context was invaluable. Thanks!
Yes it was because for me, not being a pilot, in portions of his conversation had a very hard time understanding what the pilot and his back seat rider were saying. CW and Richard sharing with us what was actually being said was invaluable.
I would love more of this guest. It's nice to have the perspective of the Air Traffic Controller as well, and he's very articulate and to the point.
I have to agree. The interview of the Sully controller is another amazing perspective. I got the perspective from the controller who handled my emergency. All the things that happen behind the scenes that you don’t hear about is very eye opening. Mover is not lying the controllers are busy when the button gets pushed.
Mr. Smith was an excellent controller, supervisor and instructor (I worked for and with him). He is as real as they come and is a quality individual to boot. [Indeed]
What a difference it makes having people who know what they’re talking about walk you through a scenario like this. Thank you gentlemen!
That was absolutely awesome. You gotta have Rocket on again. What a ride.
This was awesome, hopefully a new respect for ATC. Much like maintainers, they are many times the forgotten heroes. Many THANKS to all for keeping them flying and landing safely.👍🇺🇸🥰
I was based at Suncoast Aviation when this happened. I can't believe a video has surfaced! They posted armed guards around the F-16 on our ramp for a few days before they decided to truck it to MacDill instead of changing the engine on the field.
Rocket - remember all of the traffic reporting planes and The Route? I was Suncoast 101. You guys were great to work with.
"The Route" Yep! Was fun to work!
I was also a controller and commercial/corporate pilot and flight instructor. I worked McCarran tower/TRACON in Vegas, '77-79, and we provided approach control service for Nellis.... and Red Flag. It wasn't uncommon to have upwards of 75 aircraft on frequency at any given time. I recall almost every Red Flag recovery having at least one aircraft on an emergency recovery, and the most I ever had at one time was four emergency aircraft, with two of them a mid-air they were trying to get back. The 'relaxed, self confident' voice of the pilot and the same from the controller, giving him a... "Don't worry, boss! I'll get you down OK, and we'll knock down a Bombay Sapphire martini at the club at 1700 hours" voice of confidence makes all the difference.
One of my best friends was a two-tour, Thud Wild Weasel pilot back in the 60s. Some of his war stories were enough to make even me nervous! Thanks for sharing this incident.
Richard's nickname as "Rocket?" My controller initials were "MD," which everyone in the TRACON said stood for... "Mister Dynamic." Check out my autobiography; "BROKEN CONTROLLER: an Air Traffic Controllers Story."
Owen, I lost 28 minutes. And I'm late leaving work. So, this was definitely one of the most enthralling videos I have personally watched. My compliments to Richard, and C.W. for presenting it. Thank you both. And my hat's off to the pilot and his passenger (passenger for not leaving the jet while it was still flying and planting his Reebok's on the deck). Also a shout out to all the other's involved in this event.
One of the best, most in-depth ep reviews I've seen... def cool to hear from one of the actual controllers that played a part in this successful recovery. Especially considering how tight the alt tolerance was to make it in... thank God for all those professionals who played a roll in the outcome. 100% A+, thanks Mover.
Breathless video…. When I blew the engine in my Cessna 150 too far from the runway at Little Rock AFB, THE TOWER SAID “ let me know how it goes” and signed off…
I am an old retired controller. I worked at MacDill AFB in the mid 70s. We had 80 F4 Phantoms then. Great story. Took a back seat FAM ride on an F-16 out of JAX about 1990 or so. Thrill of a lifetime.
I had finished my F-16 training at MacDill and then saw another F-16 flameout and landing (through the weather!) on the news. He was a Guard pilot if I remember correctly. I remember a young Jane Pauly interviewing the pilot in person shortly after it happened and she was all gaga eyes over him. One thing that upsets me is after I retired and transitioned to the airlines, both the airlines and the FAA don't think former fighter pilots know anything about CRM - when in fact we used CRM MORE than the typical airline pilot.
You might want to look into the 1966 landing of Mirage A3-29 out of Williamtown (Australia) RAAF base. Gary Cooper brought her down after the fire went out on an abandoned air strip near the base. He had been ordered to Eject, but felt that doing so would result in the Mirage crashing into population. She had a belly tank fitted and was probably well over maximum landing weight. They towed her about ten miles back to the base on her own landing gear... He did well.
A3-29 was lost about 20 years later in a mid air collision with her sister, A3-30. This happened in Queens land Australia. Both Pilots sadly perished.
Last I checked, Gary Cooper was still with us. That saying about Old Bold Pilots was not true in this case....
"There are old pilots and there are bold pilots but there are no old bold pilots" is a saying that has existed almost as long as pilots have exisred! My dad was a WW2 bomber pilot.
That up down maneuver he does at the last minute is a maneuver us hang glider pilots did when we had too much speed on a short landing field. It is called a "pump stall". I've used it many times back in the day.
As a hang glider pilot and former F-16 test/IP with probably hundreds of simulated flame out landings to touchdown, I suggest it would have been much more appropriate to do a couple quick loaded S-turns.
As time goes on, fewer pilots will refer to distance as "DME", but "Say my distance to the runway" is better than "What's my DME", because the answer from a controller who takes that literally is to a navaid, which may not even be on the field. And, other than for wind drift corrections, getting a few new headings while still several miles out tells me I’m not proceeding straight to the pavement - the dogleg setup is nice, but when every foot counts, tell ATC you need "direct to the numbers". As a quick note about the stick pumps to bleed speed, there were T-38 guys who would stir the stick on inside downwind to waggle the slabs and create drag to get to gear/flap speed. I tried it too, but don't recall it accomplishing much. Great analysis guys and nice save by the IP!
I remember seeing this landing on the news when I was a kid!
I remember this event from the nightly news coverage shortly after it happened. The professionalism and the competency on display then was one of the things that enhanced my already extant desire to serve and fly. Thanks for sharing this with the controller angle included. Great teamwork in extremis.
I was at MacDill when this happened. Simply Amazing!!
Ladies and gentlemen, I give you airmanship at its finest. A very good video too. Thanks Mover and Richard.
An amazing demonstration of getting it right. Thank you.
Rather clear in this incident the instructor pilot had an extremely high awareness of the situation & the student not so much 😁. Well done by all that mattered, thanks for the great story Mr. Smith & Lemoine!
great stuff as always Mover - love the analysis and breakdown
As a retired LE firearms and tactics instructor, I advise everyone to always "role-play" scenarios about your basic comings and goings, including your commute to and from work, the environment of your job/work and even a night on the town or simply going out to the supermarket for groceries.
If you role-play in your mind all imagined scenarios, and what your best actions are in that scenario, then you will likely perform that course of action without thought or hesitation.
Your mind has a "muscle memory" of its own. Take advantage of it...................................
Nice advise indeed including even mundane day 2 day activities, being a rescue first responder it is a habit 'muscle memory' I always enrich.
I thought I was the only guy who did that.
Great video, Mover! Always enjoy guests on the show that bring aviation expertise outside of the jet.
What a luxury to bring this experienced ATC guy with such an insightful experience to your channel. Thanks Mover!
I have no military or flying experience but I'm fascinated with high performance military jets. They're some of the most beautiful machines ever built... form and function of the aircraft and it's integration with the pilot, pilot training, and all the resources that combine to produce this capability. All the dedication, sacrifice and money involved on so many levels. Makes me proud to be an American. Proud that we've been able to maintain this for so long.
Excellent presentation of the professionalism and experience of both USAF pilots and FAA Controllers‼Great flight analysis, "Mover"✅👍🏽👍🏽👍🏽👍🏽👍🏽
Excellent perspective from ATC guy!
I flew for a living out of Bartow, FL back in the 70s and 80s. F-16s transiting from Avon Park Bombing range back to MacDill would often do a couple of simulated flame-out approaches into our airport. They just did a low approach and go-around for another. One day an engine failed on the go-around. Pilot punched out ok. F-16 crashed and burned on airport property. Fire truck headed to crash site then turned around when rounds started cooking off. (grin)
Scab
@@soupsn2757 ???
@@soupsn2757 "Scab" ???
Gorgeous ! Space shuttle pilot by accident. I don't think that student quite got the message of how hairy that was until after he got out. I know I wouldn't. Hitting a hole in one is a lot more exiting when you absolutely have to. Prepping for ejection just to be on the safe side is encouraging too, even if ejecting is never a fun ride. Always good to know there's options. Beautiful !
ATCs often catch a lot of grief but I want to say that sincerely appreciate what they do for us pilots, particularly GA pilots who rarely have a copilot and frequently make minor mistakes with radio procedure.
This was awesome! I'm not a pilot and I rarely fly but it was great to see ( and hear ) how all this came out.
Wow how awesome to hear it from him!!
Excellent video. I have never seen this one. Great job, gentlemen, great job.
Hey Mover, this reminds me of an incident that occurred in the early 90’s. I was an F-16 crew chief. I had just arrived at Kunsan AB, 35th TFS. About a month before, one of the 80th TFS D models went down off the coast while giving an 80th crew chief an incentive ride. Both punched out and were picked up shortly after. We had a rash of issues with the GE’s blowing out and there was a hold on using afterburner until GE got it worked out. At least that’s how I remember it. The joke at the time was that the back seater got the ultimate incentive ride. I think the pilots call sign was “Lurch” due to his height. Don’t know if you ever heard anything about that, but that’s how I recall it.
Yup. Block 30s with the F110 were limited to no AB for a while in those days. Funny, because I was just talking about it with someone else in a discussion about reliability between the F100-PW-229 and GE F110s. Pratts tend to have various levels of reliability when there are faults, whereas GE was either it worked, or no worky.
@@LRRPFco52 some f-16s at Cope thunder 90 were on a no AB restriction. others were not. I wondered about that at time. now i know why, thanks
It was found to be an incorrectly assembled lube scavenge pump causing the failures from the vendor. The ROK jets were the first to get the common engine bay also and I cannot remember but I think that included the "big mouth" intake the GE needed.
Also there was another issue that caused problems for the F110, initially we were servicing it like the F100 by filling to overflow which the F110 did not like, very quickly GE identified that and changed it but I cannot remember the F110 procedure after all these years.
@@greatcollector9362 What was filled to overflow? Engine lube?
Absolutely fantastic co-ord. I recall seeing/using a video for CRM teaching & training back in the 90's of a single-seat fighter (F-16 I think) that lost all power (APU included) shortly after take-off, and required the controller to give him clock vectors back to the runway as he had no heading information on-board. If this sounds familiar to you, or any of your viewers, I'd love to see it again, and hear a more modern dissection of the event, as I stopped flying 25 years ago, and teaching 20 years ago. Thanks...
I was stationed at Kadena AFB from late 69' to 71' . We had a RF-105 lose it's engine north of the base...he tried to glide back to base... I remember the chopper bringing back what was left of that 105...sad.
This is outstanding work by all involved. Thanks Mover for sharing your guest and this experience. I have tested this in DCS and it is dicey with a Viper!
Very kickass vid, especially having spent a bit of time around MacDill and TPA, glad there were consummate professionals all around, feel sorry for the E2 that has to clean that backseat thought! Thanks to both of you, gentlemen!
I can confirm no GPS the INS system was being converted to Ring Laser Gyro. I remember this incident. The engine was shelled. It was a good thing the pilot didn't bleed off air speed by going nose up. The H70 Hydrazine would of separated from the catalyst in the generator and all power to the flight controls would have been lost. MacDill lost an aircraft to this type of failure. This was a very good pilot. I'm also a 2A071B from MacDill.
Even without GPS, if he had TPA as a waypoint he'd have gotten the waypoint symbol in the HUD which would have been invaluable. I never heard what the cloud base was but barring some other situational awareness cueing (like the proper waypoint dialed up) the cloudbase in thousands of feet would have been the proper distance in nm for final to target for a gear down final. (4K' AGL cloud base then target a 4nm mile final).
Thanks brother. This is the exact comment I was looking for.
Richard Smith is a legit trainer, especially being a pilot himself. So true about needing a good controller in a circumstance like this giving him exactly what he needs immediately. Not asking him questions or other nonsense. That pilot was trusting that the controller was leading him right.
The Block30s had either the original FCCs or XFCCs which had very limited mission and display capabilities. The Ds were used exclusively for training. They also had a reliability problem with the FCCs, and it is lucky that the EP stayed up, and allowed the displays to be actually visible. We worked these reliability problems, and they were not fixed (nor retrofitted) until after the Block40s or 50s.
Thanx for the treat guys, best half hour all day.
That seemed to stop very well on that 8000ft Rwy with alternate/accumulator braking. 👍👍😀😀 edited to add absolutely brilliant content 👍👍
What an incredible story and landing. Great pilot and controllers.
Great analysis by both of you 👍
I’m glad you did this video. I seen it years ago. Great job brother
When I worked at TOPGUN, the CO at the time, "Wigs," did a practice F-16N idle-power 180 approach and landing at Miramar. I believe such things were "N/R," but then, he was the CO of TOPGUN!
I was a crew chief on F-4'S @ MacDill when they were transitioning to F-16's. What a wild and wooly time! Always something going on.
We had a few landings as t TPA by mistake!
Always embarrassing.
Great video and discussion , of a great "situation".
Thanks y'all for sharing this !
👍😎👍
I remember an F16 losing its engine over Lake Michigan back in the 80s. If memory serves he made an emergency landing at Glen View NAS north of Chicago
That’s correct, I saw that video and as I recall the wx was a bit worse than this, but he did have the cable. This was hairier.
I grew up in Glenview and was a fence rat for a while at Glenview Naval air station until it sadly closed in ‘95, taking pictures of planes and watching the action there.
That dead stick F16 landing occurred at night as I recall, so neither me or any of the other plane watchers who hung out there witnessed it, which was around 87 or ‘88, but recall when it was in the news. It was a new F16 on a shakedown flight that flew from Ft Worth to meet a tanker offshore of Wisconsin to refuel, then fly back. It flamed out over the lake and was able to glide into Glenview and land with only minor damage. The base was located in a very populated Chicago suburban area so I question if what they did was prudent, safety wise. There was a garbage landfill and largely vacant area north of the base though, so if he’d come up short the plane likely wouldn’t have killed anyone. All is well that ends well so there is that! And if the pilot had chose to eject over the lake, his survival after ending up in the lake wouldn’t have been a sure thing, as hypothermia probably would have got him before the the coast guard helo got to the site.
th-cam.com/video/axQ7A84fY-U/w-d-xo.html
Great episode. More like that please!
Very cool video! Great perspective from Richard.
I remember seeing this on the news at the time. A great piece of flying!
Richard is correct about Tampa being an outstanding ATC facility. I've retired as a pilot, but their leadership and controllers lead to a safe and efficient piece of airspace. A gentleman named Ox was an example of great leadership.
Very much enjoyed the discussion. Thank you gentlemen.
Way To Go! Outstanding Work!👏😃👍
Yeah, no GPS back then. Went thru RTU at MacDill in '91. May have had a steerpoint for KTPA though. We used destination steerpoints 21-25 for our alternates. Good he jettisoned his tanks early
good afternoon, mover and rocket, I used to work for the administration as a radio tech. on occasion, I've hung out and heard mil air traffic controllers giving intercept commands to an Interceptor for someone violating a TFR. this is exciting and terrifying what you're showing me. mover, do you have any comments about the F-15 hard contact during refueling the other day? Holy crap. That pilot did a dead stick, landing in an F-16, and that controller was awesome. I currently fly a very old citabria, and I intend to be an old pilot. All I can say if you are ever in that situation you put your flaps down and your gear down and you'll be your butt around a lot
For those asking 'why didn't they give him the longer runway?' . Once the F-16 lands its gonna sit for a long time due to Hydrazine protocols and after, getting it prepped to tow. AF will need to be on site for this. Per Pilot choice if 8300ft works for him he will take it. Especially if it involves less vectoring - remember his a/c is in a power out situation - No energy he is gliding. Other less urgent but still an issue is an active airfield with incoming /departures and lots of traffic. Many on direct approach / departing / taxiing , some of which need the longer runway and cannot divert to nearby because of that. AT / APCH and Grnd Controllers can divert and or put some aircraft in Holding. Depending on the situation they can pause all departures and or arrivals. Hold a/c on taxiways for the moment.
61st TFTS class 84 DBM here and then back as a RTU IP from 1988-1990. Honestlyndont remember this one and I was at Mac during that time frame. Nice job by the guys. Only thing I would add is why they didn’t slide over to the longer runway? I believe it is over 10,000 long. Not second guessing just pointing that out.🙂
I guess they would need the longer runway for the heavy commercials, and it was possible for the shorter one to be blocked by the F16. Am I on the right track?
@@yatespeterm I would think that the tower controller would have given him clearance to any runway he preferred. They could have easily sent the airliners around.
@@Ed-qn8my - Sent the airliners around for how long? The controllers know that F-16 isn't taxiing off the runway on its own power, so they'd have to wait for it to get towed off whatever runway it lands on.
(They don't know about the hydrazine hazmat situation that would presumably delay a tow even further, unless they found that out from the fire crews.)
I'm a little surprised nobody asked if that runway length was sufficient, though.
I'm thinking they *could* even have told him ahead of time the other runway was available as an emergency option if he got below the clouds and realized that he couldn't dump enough speed to safely land on 18L. If he did that, then other traffic might have to divert to their alternate airports, so only if that's what it takes to not die.
I really enjoyed this video, thanks!
the way that the pilot had full control and was like "can we make silence on the radio?" and stuff is amazing control and a good show of a prepared mind
I'm not one for suspense movies, but the tension in this one had my seat cushion puckered up.
PROFESSIONALS all around!
In my old air wing, Airman of the Month had option of riding rear seat on RF-4C "training flight". Spread between AMS, FMS, and OMS.
Us maintenance folks HATED when nonners got incentive rides, IDGAF what anybody else thinks. We didn't take 2 hours out of our day to screw up PCS orders, paychecks, or all the other menial shit they did
Great vid. Wish you’d explain the jargon more for us non pilots
In 1989, i was in the Army doing a Brigade change of command ceremony at Giebelstadt germany. The brigade was formed on the base runway when we had to flee the runway when an F16 made a dead stick landing.
This was fantastic!
Rocket, I recognize your voice. I flew private into TPA frequently, and was with TPD Aviation (back when we still have the Hughes 300s and the surplus OH-6s). You guys did amazing when we had a pursuit down 275, or Hillsborough, or Eisenhower, blasting right through your approaches.
Somehow you always made it work...
Saw that Viper sitting on the ramp for a while.
Loved working with TPA PD aircraft!
Mad respect. Thanks for sharing.
It was Doug Masters in the backseat
Ahaha!!!
Controller: "Did I hear music up there?"
Dad: "Well, we were catching some weird FM radio interference up there...."
Keep jammin those tunes, cuz you're zoomin!
When the closest I've ever been to military aviation is my Dad was in the nose of a B29 in 1945 - but as an old fart civilian I found that informative and thrilling. Commenting to boost the YT machine.
That was a fantastic landing
Hectic, thanks for sharing with us RIchard.
Always look at the size of a pilot sitting in the cockpit of a F-16 and think he looks so small sitting in his glass bubble controlling this awesome machine, i think how can one man fly something so big and powerful, you's do everyday fantastic, a thing of beauty to watch, Man and Machine flying like their part of each other he/she knows every suttle move there bird makes, simply perfection ☘️🍺
To get the diamond for TPA, the coordinates would have to be one of the steerpoints (waypoints). Only having 20 back then, I expect he didn't have it loaded. So, not being able to select that waypoint, he couldn't get the diamond and associated data. Might be why wingman couldn't provide that info either (same steerpoint load) but could to MacDill. Also, the old INU with gyros and no GPS were spec'd to drift less than 0.8 nm in an hour. So, depending on how long he had been flying, the diamond could be quite far off. (That's why there are all the fix modes back in the day.)
Yeah the student could have re-purposed one of the steer points to Tampa but being a student I'd imagine he didn't get that far into it. The pilot was clearly too busy to be manually plugging in the data to Tampa.
Pretty sure this was summer of 1986. I was visiting family and remember reading about an emergency F-16 landing at Tampa in the paper.
I will say sometimes I get frustrated with the narration in these type videos. You guys did an awesome job of letting the video play but adding good information and narration at the right points. I was engaged for the full 32 minutes. Great video
great vid, great professionalism
Great outcome thx to controllers and a cool pilot
Man, that was good. Love watching a calm, cool pilot do his thing when the hay in the barn runs out. That’s golden age astronaut stuff. Great teamwork in the tower.
This situation is a lot less stressful on X-Plane Mobile in an F22 @ Mach 2 @50,000 feet 30 miles out. Real world problems handled like a champ.
ATCs are the unsung heroes in aviation. I hope to see Rocket on the Mover and Gonky show.
Very good, thanks.
I was on call in late 1986 or early 1987, at Kansan AB, when an F-16 called in that he was 13 minutes out, with 8 minutes of fuel remaining. My supervisor and I hooked up the hydrazine trailer and went to the taxiway. Just when the wheels touched down, the EPU fired. We had to wait for the pilot to get out before we could approach the jet. That never happens!!! Usually the jet is waiting on us to show up. Amazing day!!!
My work place show's everyone a similar video (don't think this is the one, might be). Where our unit (part) caused a flame out because of a defect from a supplier. From what I was told, they added additional inspection and tests so it won't happen again.
From what I was told, we had the military at the facility every day that we were taking the unit apart to find out what failed. Everyone was on edge, like wearing depends, fearful of whose at fault.
As a pilot, Absolutely terrifying ...., but riveting!
Very cool to hear from a controller we don’t get that perspective very much
Amazing pilot skills
This should be screened for all ATC personnel nationwide.
"Sporty" - fave term from this one
We need to hear the interview with the back seater!!!!!
wow that was text book, the pilot was all over it..
I have footage of a Viper flameout landing at the Alpena CRTC Michigan, back in early 90’s.
This pilot had to pull up to miss the fence, needless to say he never flew again, something about turning the fuel shutoff.
My cousin Ret. Col. Ron Gunner Moore left me all his videos and pictures.
The F‐16 fighter uses a form of hydrazine (H‐70, 30% diluted by water) to power its emergency power unit (EPU). Hydrazine is corrosive, toxic, and highly flammable, which requires ground crews to have special handling protection, including self contained atmospheric protective ensemble suits.
Radio call at 25:45 requests wingman to provide winds from the FCNP, an A/B model block 1-15 component/display. Was FCNP and DED used interchangeably as pilots transitioned to block 25/30s? The 72nd was the last sq to transfer out A/B model block 10s before receiving block 25s, then block 30 GE small mouths . The 61st, 62nd and 63rd received new block 30 GE big mouths.
Closer to the 40 second mark but I caught the exact same exchange. So either they were actually in A/B models or that IP was an old head in a C/D model who just had FC/NP on the brain.