30 year CW5 speaking here. This was clearly an "Instructor Pilot failed to take corrective action in a timely manner" accident. AR 95-1 authorizes unqualified personnel to fly in an Army aircraft for mission familiarization flight with a qualified Standardization Instructor Pilot as authorized by the first Aviation O-6 in the chain of command. That being said, simulation has come so far these days I question why this needs to occur at all. I have done several of these orientation flights in UH-60, MH-60, MC-12 and ARL Turbo Props and all of them were in a combat theater usually involving a senior leader who is now in the briefing chain who is unfamiliar with the mission. Thanks for the channel and High Five to Gonky!
I don't have any military flight time. I do fly in the civilian world. But I did spend years engineering simulation systems. Had the chance to fly the high end sims for many vehicles, and hovering the Apache was the hardest thing I've ever done in that respect. So much power and control authority, I don't know even how you make use of all that. By contrast, I also flew the OH-58 sim, and was easy by comparison. Flying down city streets doing hammerhead turnarounds, nbd. But then I was the guest of the Navy and tried out the V-22 sim, and it was disconcerting how the automation of the stabilized control system made me feel disconnected. There was no need to concentrate on hover, just bump the throttle up, it jumps up and sits there. Even in a crosswind, no compensation needed by the pilot. I'm guessing if the F-35 has a similar stabilized feel, the guest pilot was unprepared for the hand-eye workload. And yes, I would agree the doing these fam rides in the sim would probably be the way to go if the guest is expecting to do some of the driving. Or make sim time a prereq of the flight.
No doubt. This kind of thing has been going on forever. I was reading the book "Where BUFF-fellows Roam" (author has the last name Hoopaw) who was a B-52 pilot from the early 60s to the early-1980s. During Vietnam they always had O-6 wing commander types and generals that got VIP rides and wanted to perform a landing and some of those got real sketchy. He talked about some of the near-accidents he's had and thought the practice was out of control and should be banned. This was going on with Vietnam ARC LIGHT missions. The more things change, the more they stay the same. One point of levity is that the safety briefings to the VIP generals were funny as hell. He would tell them, "When the aircrew is preparing to eject, I strongly suggest that you go below and bail out when I advise it, sir. BUT the choice is yours. After the aircrew ejects, you're the Aircraft Commander, sir."
@@johngoscinski1995 In actuality aircraft like the UH-60 and AH-64 all have a assist for hover such as SAS (stability augmentaion system) with heading hold or similar systems making them much easier to hover than an OH-58 (Jetranger) or OH-6 (MD500) which uses the pilot for stabalization and heading hold. No simulator fully replicates flying the actual aircraft. The only time I let an unqualified pilot actually fly the aircraft was if it was a Fam or Mission orientation flight with a qualified sister service pilot, like an USAF HH-60 pilot in my MH-60 for TTP (Tactics, Techniques and Procedures) exchange, other than that if we were not at altitude, I always would ghost ride the controls and block the pedals to prevent wrong pedal input which can have catastrophic results during take off, landing or close proximity terrain operations (turf flight as the Navy says) in a fixed wing or rotorcraft. Many helos have crashed because a front seat passenger or unqualified pilot grabs an unguarded collective in a moment of panic or excitement. The collective pitch change will not only make a helo go up and down but will also make them go "boom" when in close proximity to the ground. Peace.
Fun note pertaining to Fam-Ride (Non-Dedicated Sortie), and Incentive Flight (Dedicated Sortie). In December 1985, I was a young SSgt. in the bomb dump at MacDill AFB. I was about 36 hours into to earning my private license at Peter O'Knight. I had already taken the FAA written. On December 5, I got a ride in an F-16. I always called it my incentive flight. The Lt. Colonel that gave me my ride was also an FAA certified instructor CFI, civilian-wise. I worked with him a couple of hours the day before, so that I could operate the stuff he would not have access to. When he learned I was about to be a licensed pilot, my flight took on another profile. He told me to bring my log book and he'd log me 1.4 hours of dual INSTRUCTION IN SEL (F-16). Then he told me he was due for his annual rear seat instructing qualification. So if I didn't object, I'd be in the front seat and we would be a 2-ship formation Fam-Flight. I was excited. He put me through a harness hang and we went to the marina for a "parachute drag. I watched canopy safety videos where frozen chickens were shot into canopies as tests. I learned how to dump fuel in the bay, how to operate the harness lock lever, and how to operate the environmental controls including oxygen control. He took me to life support and got my suit, helmet, mask, and scarf. My flight was unbelievable. We were #2 in a 2-ship, radar-trail departure, into a 100' heavy overcast with light rain. In a cloud just 5 ft. away from another jet was crazy! I hadn't done the alt. chamber so we were limited to 10k. We punched out of the ovc. about 2000ft. so it was not stormy. He let me fly for about 1 hour, myself. Myself and the other guy (transitioning from F-4's) practiced ACM until almost sick. We left and headed for the base. MacDill was socked-in. About 850 ft. ceilings. Col. Kramer took the controls from me and briefed me on the landing. He first did a controller-assisted PAR (Precision Approach Radar.) approach almost to minimums. Then we did a Loc Back Course, with simulated failed gyros. Col. Kramer got his training, I went super-s, I did an ILS to a low approach, but it was not great. Log book entry by CFI Kramer. We landed to a full stoop in torrential downpours, on a wet runway. I never barfed but coming back home made me nauseous, but 100% O2 at full blast 2 stopped that. The chance of a lifetime.
Sounds like a BS story to me. Ain't no way a qualified F-16 pilot and Colonel would let an unqualified NCO with minimal flight experience fly in the front seat of a B or D model. Any pilot that did that would be arrested and court marshalled. Rear seat qual's are done with a fully qualified IP in the front seat. I'm sure folks that have no experience are impressed with your tall tale but I'm not!
Well, the tube deleted my comment because I used an inappropriate word. Basically, I said this sounds like a tall tale. Those that have no experience might be impressed but I'm not.
Having flown the F-4 and F-15 I find this impossible to believe. How did the IP crank the JFS? What would you do in the event of an engine fire? What would you do in the event of brake or NG steering failure? It’s been a long time since I had a Viper ride, but there are NO JFS switches, or Fire pushbuttons in the backseat of the F-15…the Viper is probably similar. Letting you fly in the front seat is stupid, dangerous and probably illegal! I find it impossible to believe that an F-16 flight lead would agree to lead a flight like that! Let alone allow you to ACM!! Taking off into a 100 ft overcast??? Really? What was your emergency return plan? What was the IPs weather Cat?? The IP let you shoot an ILS on a crappy weather day when the overhead was closed and every jet on base was shooting an instrument approach?? Please post (an unaltered) pick of the log book entry with Col Kramer signature. If this story is legit, and no rules were broken neither you or Col Kramer will have any problem with posting the pic. BTW - when the Commander of USAFE, who is a fully qualified F-16 pilot came to RAF Lakenheath he got an F-15E flight. He was scheduled to fly in the front seat with a fully qualified IP Before he could fly in the front seat of the jet, he had to have a brief academic lesson and an Emergency Procedure Sim and demonstrate proficiency in operating all the switches the IP could not operate from the back seat. In other words, he had to start the engines and be able to operate the throttles/fingerlifts. He was given hydraulic failures resulting wheel brake failure, and Nose Gear Steering Failure. He was given multiple engine fire/failures and AMAD fire. He was given a blown tire on landing. He was given EPs in all phases of flight and logged a 1.5 hr sim mission. Post the pic!
@@justsmy5677 I totally agree with you. I'm a retired maintainer/crew chief with more than 30 years experience on the F-16. I'm also a private pilot. I was very familiar with the F-16 cockpit, much more than an Ammo guy would be. I was qualified engine run and for a couple years we were allowed to do taxi checks I did fly the simulator a couple times and I did OK with the basic flying. So when I got my incentive flight I thought, this'll be easy. I wasn't! I was totally out of my element. Pulling G's was downright painful. @bryancobb makes it sound like it was a walk in the park. Or maybe it was just a dream?
True story - years ago, I was a crew chief in the Marines deployed to the Med on a helicopter carrier. We were anchored off the coast of Greece supporting some training operation there. The PIC of our UH-1N Huey was a captain and because the Huey required only one pilot, I flew left seat that day. That was very common. The pilot, who really was a good stick, ran into a friend of his who was a major flying F-15s. The major was as cocky as they come and swore he could strap that bird on and fly as well as anyone. The pilot put him into the left seat and I got in the back. He literally taught the major how to fly it and being fair, the major did a good job. Until we needed gas and needed to go back to the ship. The pilot let the major land on the deck and I was terrified. There were 30' scrapes across the flight deck from the skids. Yellow shirts were running away. I unplugged my ICS cable, got out, and went to my bunk trying not to throw up while he was refueling. They had to get one of the guys on flight deck duty that day (if we weren't flying, we had to stay on the flight deck during flight ops) to leave because they couldn't find me. The major, and especially the captain who I really did like, could have killed a lot of people that day. They were overconfident, careless, and just plain stupid. I have no doubt the F-35 pilot in this case thought he would make that helo his bitch when in reality, hovering and low speed maneuvering are very difficult at first. Even an idiot like me could fly a Huey at 1000' at 90 knots (which pretty much was all they would give us stick time). But these people underestimated the complexity of flying something not straight and level.
It is soooo much harder to fly a helicopter. I feel like your hand eye coordination has to be far better than the majority of people, and you have your eyes doing two things at once with all your gear. You guys have my absolute respect. Having watched once, you guys are awesome.
Retired CW4 Apache pilot here…the 64 is a 2 pilot aircraft, and for a non-rated individual to fly in it, a letter of authorization is required. I agree with what you and others have said regarding the IP failing to react in a timely fashion…he is the one that will be found at fault. An interesting thing about the AH-64 flight controls that may have influenced his reluctance to back up the other pilot by being on the controls with him is the Back-Up Control system known as BUCs…it was made in case of battle damage that might jam on of the pilot’s controls, the other can “break out” by pushing against the jam. The draw back to that is if you break out the other pilot will not longer have controls that function…this can be overcome, but it requires time to be able to do it. It’s the main reason that if I were doing a flight like this, I would be extremely careful about how I would transfer the controls if I would even do it at all. It seems fairly obvious that the Pilot in Command wasn’t as diligent as he should have been. I have been in units where we sought and got permission to fly our crew chiefs and other people who never get the change to fly the aircraft they work on. This was accomplished with no incidents over and over again and it would be a shame if the actions of one person would ruin that for everyone…but it definitely would be an “army” thing to do.
"Oh no! It's BUCS! I'm gonna let some guy crash us because we might roll an ARD!" If I had thought that while teaching at Hanchey I wouldn't have survived teaching the first week of contact let alone teaching the bag LOL. ;)
@@jakexou812 I’m just spitballing…trying to come up with a reason why he wouldn’t follow on the controls…yes BUCs is dumb, but you try and come up with a reason.
Before I retired I was an MH-60 Jayhawk pilot in the Coast Guard. We’d frequently do familiarization and incentive flights with pilots from other services especially if they were considering changing branches. The army Blackhawk pilots were the most interesting. It’s basically the same aircraft but a completely different kind of flying. We rarely handed over the controls to a fixed wing pilots without lots of additional training.
Former mil ATC Australia. Two notable experiences in my time in. A 5 hour jump seat ride in a Chinook, what a great fireside chat between 2 pilots and an ATC to better understand each others roles and constraints. Half hour at the controls of a Kiowa under instruction because of specific helicopter operational constraints that the squadron wanted ATC to better empathise with. Controls were guarded particularly in the hover attempt. Invaluable learning for both sides of the equation in both cases.
Seriously. I've been flying for over 2 decades, I'm a CFI and ATP. Just flew rotorwing for the first time a few weeks ago, and hovering the thing was so damn hard! Everything else was fairly manageable, but goddamn, hovering is hard!
Your broad and deep experience, coupled with sincere humility, is appreciated to shed light on occurrences like this. You deserve a much expanded audience.
Former apache pilot here... seen a bunch of fam rides-- Usually the BN SIP will be in the back seat for these rides, and just from experience the only scenario I can come up with is transistioning to forward flight from an IGE hover. at around 40 knots you outrun your ground effect and will start to descend. if you aren't prepared for it, it can be startling. Kind of makes sense that a fighter pilot would firewall throttle to gain airspeed-- but that motion in a helo translates to collective down. If the back seater wasn't on the collective this could have happened.
When I was at Kadena in mid-90s there was HH-3 Class A accident. They were part of local ORI; the way they did it then was to ‘swap’ runways between the tankers/helos & F-15s; in other words they operated off the other runway that they typically used. So, a typhoon was coming so they terminated the exercise. The HH-3 was what they called ‘air taxiing’ (in other words flying at about 5 feet of altitude). They were passing rather close to an F-15 that was being towed; everyone on the helo was watching to make sure that they cleared the F-15. No one was watching the light pole on other side (of a part of the ramp that they were not used to be on). Blade struck the pole; 4 (of 5) went flying, one killing the F-15 crew chief. Both pilots on helo knocked unconscious. The blade that stayed on the helo caught on the pole and the whole thing was rotating around the pole until a firefighter jumped onboard & killed the engine. The name of the crew chief is now of the F-15 gate guard by gate 1 at Kadena.
We were stationed at Kadena from 85-88. My dad flew Jolley Green Giants at the time before transitioning to Pavehawks in 92/93. I was just a kid, but I remember my dad flew a mission to rescue a F15 pilot that ejected off the coast of Okinawa. Also some of my parents good friends died in a crash. From my understanding they were hoovering over the ocean at night, but they became disoriented, and were actually going backwards, and descending slightly, and the tail hit the water. I believe the helicopter flipped over itself, and came down topside down, and obviously sank. I believe both pilots passed away, but I think the guys in the back were able to get out. That's how I always understood it, but it might not be 100% correct.
Thanks for posting this. My oldest brother was there at Kadena for that incident. It was one of the examples he used when he gave me the "you need to understand what you are signing up for" talk when I was getting ready to join the Marine Corps. Even though I still enlisted, that story never left me and it shaped a lot of my safety habits when working around helos.
I was in one of the Harriers on an adjacent ramp, also typhoon-evacing. F-15 was under tow, HH-3 (ground) taxiing the opposite direction. Both tried to edge away from the other and the helo clipped one of the concrete light poles . . . it disappeared in a cloud of concrete dust, and blade fragments flew everywhere. We shut down to avoid FOD. The HH-3 bounced around wildly until the transmission broke, finally coming more or less to rest but still smoking and shaking, and one crazy guy ran up the rear ramp and shut it down. Bravest thing I ever saw.
During my time in the Marine Corps as a CH-46E crewchief, when flying with my CO, he landed and had me get in the left seat while the co-pilot climbed in the back. He them proceeded to teach me how to take off vertically and hover. He kept his hands and feet on the flight controls the entire time to teach me how to do it. He never let me have the controls by myself. We did this several times during my time in the squadron. This included transitioning to fwd flight from a hover. It was really interesting to get that opportunity.
Mate I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not lol but I played the hell out of Comanche 4 when I was young and it would hover itself at any altitude if you let go of the joystick.. Microsoft Flight Simulator is a much more accurate representation
Flying fixed wing is like driving a car with a manual transmission. Flying a chopper is like walking, chewing gum, juggling fire batons, yodeling, and scratching your nuts at the same time. Ask me how I know. 🤣 It is definitely harder to transition from fixed to rotary than from rotary to fixed. I've flown the 500, 206, 222 and 430. When I messed with a R22, it was like all my skills were rusted tight. (Since you mentioned the Robinson.) I'd say the IP will get hammered hard, but I suspect the colonel will get called on the carpet as well.
The same question came to mind when he said he had his Commercial ticket. I must have missed all that when it happened. Glad to hear he got back to it.
@@dciimho2798 Me too, and watching part of the video where he explained why he stopped he came off as clearly having a valid reason. Like, even if it turned out his understanding of the situation wasn't accurate, feeling that way is a good enough reason. If I recall, it was about losing faith in the safety of the rented helicopter and the way other people who were renting it were doing things.
All good pilots are humble.The more experience you get, the more humble you get. Being humble does NOT mean that you don't have self confidence or self esteem. Being humble means that you know your limitations, and and that you are only a human being, after all.
The F-35 pilot was a bird colonel. I believe that his rank was intimidating to the CWO leading him to be reluctant to take control away from the colonel. This reminds me of a crash in the mid 70s at Randolph. The wing commander was promoted BG and was taking off to his new assignment in a T-38 with a captain on board. As you may recall the T-38 pitches nose up at an airspeed I don’t recall. Anyway, the general was taking off and (apparently without warning) decided he’d do a roll on takeoff. While inverted the aircraft passed through the critical airspeed and pitch “nose up” except when inverted the aircraft flew into the runway killing all onboard. Two lessons: VIP and/or Rank disparity can cause people to not do things they ordinarily would do. “Students” will try to kill you.
@@richardbriscoe8563 I was a CWO for 30 years. I never met an SP doing a fam ride or mission orientation flight with a non aircraft qualified pilot, regardless of rank, that was afraid to take the controls. In all practicality this Col was probably doing a good job hovering until he wasn't and if he was doing a good job, the SP probably let his guard down. That being said the Army experience level is half of what it was 20 years ago so that may have been a contributing factor. Example 20 years ago all company Standardization Instructor Pilots were CW4s and today it is commonly a CW3 and often an inexperienced CW2. The Army did this to itself through a stupid shift in political correctness which caused thousands of experienced warriors to tap out.
I don't think a a CW4 is intimidated by an O-6, especially when the CW4 is PIC of his aircraft and the O-6 is on a fam flight in an aircraft he has no experience in.
@@FacelessMan777 I don't disagree. A CW4 has a LOT of smoke. I never made it beyond "spot" WO1 because I started failing my flight physicals. But, two classmates of mine spent their careers in the 160th, and both retired as CW5's. We all stay in touch. They tell me that as a W-5, they could tell an obnoxious Colonel to go away and he'd mind them.
Agree with you 100% on all counts. Another reason an OGE hover is less advisable is that you don't catch it as fast when you start to drift because you have less ground reference. Yes, the Apache has symbology to help but there's no way that would have been a help to an unqualified pilot. Related point, the Apache's visibility forward and down absolutely sucks. That makes high hovering a little harder and definitely makes approaches harder. There's techniques to get around that, but again, that's not something for a fam flight! I'm guessing that colonel face-planted himself into the TEDAC; it wouldn't surprise me if that rehabilitation is learning to talk with a shattered face.
@@ald1144 The Apache has OGE capability in most training circumstances and also has a Hover Stabalization mode that locks the aircraft in space, so to speak, to reduce pilot workload when conducting an engagement from a hover. Without ordinance loaded, that aircraft would have had no issue hovering OGE. Realistically the AH-64 could have been hovering at 50 feet in ground effect allowing time for corrective action. The failure was allowing an unqualified pilot to attempt a landing. The AH-64 has a notoriously tricky CG (center of gravity) on touchdown with a high platform on a narrow gear placement making it susceptiple to "dynamic rollover" exceeding the critical angle to recover from a rolling moment. Not a problem for an experienced pilot. Very tricky in dust brownout or snow whiteout. Most likely a younger IP, assuming the Colonel's high time experience, that he was good and he let his guard down. As C.W. Lemoine stated "why was he not on the flight controls?"
I'm forever grateful for the opportunity I had in a full motion MV-22 sim in the late 2000's. A good friend of mine was able to get me some MV-22 sim at the squadron I used to be in about 6 years after I got out. A lot of PC flight simulator experience before and after I was enlisted, and I was a final checkride away from my PPL but I couldn't get it finished before I had to ship to boot camp, so I had some general familiarity over say that of someone who had zero flight time. I sat in the left seat and the IP (former O4 or O5, IIRC,) sat in the right, and he took me through pretty much one of everything that you can do in a V-22. Takeoff/landings on an LHD, aerial refueling, etc. Performing a max power takeoff in the sim was pretty amazing; that's the appeal of the V-22. Coming from avionics on a CH-46 to a V-22, I could certainly see firsthand how much better/easier (and more modern) an aircraft it was for the pilots to operate. I'm still amazed how those early CH-46 pilots in Vietnam were able to fly those things without AFCS.
No, old guy talk, Harriers were first brought on the scene you were required to have helo experience because the nozzle and throttle sorta worked like the collective and throttle in a helo. The monkey skills translated over. and it was found that it kinda worked in reverse as well. You could take a Harrier driver and quickly trained him up to be a helo driver as well. Enter the JSF. while it does the same thing as an harrier it gets to those results differently. All the monkey skill are not required in the JSF. George takes care of all the nuances. But the ricky ram jets out there seem to forget that Fact and seem to think they can just straight into a Helo and hover. Just my humble opinion or what he said.
It's not mentioned, but I got the impression that the pilot was USAF, not USMC, so would only have flown F-35A. But regardless, as Mover said for modern military fighters flying the plane is almost a secondary role for the pilot, so if he was a F-35B pilot, he still wouldn't know how to hover in a helicopter. Mover's comment about may be he used the collective like a throttle, and I don't know the layout of throttles & stick in an F-35 vs which side of seat the collective is in an Apache, but in a high stress situation muscle memory isn't going to be your friend in this case.
As a doctor a lot of these mishaps are analogous to medical training. You never let a student or trainee get into a situation you CANNOT get them out of.
I'm an ex- RCAF tech, and I was actually put on the list for an incentive ride back in 96 during Maple Flag. I was assigned to the USAF Weapons guys, and they were so impressed with my effort they put me on the list. Sadly, I was still #3 when Flag ended, so I missed my chance. I did get a certificate of Appreciation from the CO of Red Flag, and a Red Flag poker chip. It was still cool being recognized for my efforts, but man, I wanted that ride when they told me they put me on the list...they pointed out I was the only non-USAF guy given that honor.
The Colonel is Ronald J. Sloma and he’s the Wing Commander of the 419th FW at Hill AFB. He has a background of flying F16s and transitioned to the F35.
I bet he was a full bird and I'm also willing to bet that played a roll in him even getting in that cockpit in that capacity. It also really makes you wonder if he flashed the brass a few times to get the PIC to let him do what he wanted instead of what was best.
I've been an ASEL private pilot since 2019, added instrument in 2020 and am training for my commercial now. Even then, when I'm flying with my instructor, they still guard the controls during critical phases of flight.
Obviously, it's not even remotely close to the same, but I still remember the first time I was flying around in DCS and tried the Ka-50 helicopter. I'd been flying flight sims since I was a kid. I started with the DCS-family with Flanker 2.5, so I've been flying that specific sim for probably 10 years by then. I jumped into the Ka-50, lightly increased the collective...and immediately had that thing flip over and smash the rotors into the runway and then catch on fire. It's wild just how different your mindset has to be. Even worse was the first time I tried the Mi-8 without all of the lovely autopilot stabilization modes.
@@aaronwhite1786 Flying computer games is not the same as flying real aircraft. Flying the real aircraft is easier because you have real physical forces acting on your body, real physical forces and feedback on the flight controls, and real motion and altitude. Try a REAL flight simulator instead if you want the computer games.
@@bryansimmons4550 "Try a REAL flight simulator instead if you want the computer games." I'm all for this. If the Army wants to let me fly a few rounds in their Apache sim to test my luck, I just want to publicly state, in case all of them are reading, that I am very open to this idea. I'll even pay for my own gas to get there!
The Apache has a feature that will allow one seat to break the physical control of the collective, cyclic or pedals in case of controls being jammed. The controls then switch from fly by hydraulics mechanical linkage to fly by wire. The front seat could have pushed the collective so hard that it broke the collective away from the back seater giving the front seater fly by wire control of the collective. This would have given the front seater total control of the collective even if the back seater had his hand on the collective. This is designed for battle damage or if one pilot becomes injured and must have the controls forced from their hands.
@@orlock20I’ve yet to see an auto hover or panic button in almost 30 years of flying Apaches. Lol. The fault in this case resides with the IP and no one else.
@@bks252 It's a function of the the forced trim switch for the D model which is just above the weapon action switch on the stick. The E model might be different.
This is on the same level of stupid as my local police department letting a officer/pilot remain in the Aviation Unit after he was ALMOST FIRED FOR DRINKING ALCOHOL ON DUTY. In a year they CRASHED 2 HELICOPTERS IN 4 MONTHS. I mean, come on man.....this accident was so easily avoidable it's painful.
I've crewed when we had non-helo pilots attempting to fly. It was only ever with the Colonel or the XO up front too. I just remember the ICS "left pedal, left pedal, LEFT PEDAL, my airplane".
Career 4500 hours in AF helos. IP and Evaluator at formal school in ABQ twice. I always had my hand under the collective and right hand within inch of cyclic. Always did a “demonstration” before allowing any student or DV to try…hovering, normal approach, auto, or inflight refueling….IP was at fault.
That helicopter is very top heavy and the gear is narrow. Coming from Blackhawks I found it very quirky. It's not as intuitive and it took me a long time to get used to it. I'm not sure why he would let him land it. I can see cruise flight and even manuevering but landing it is the hard part. Very poor visibility in the front seat as well.
I always thank my instructors. I was fortunate to learn to fly rotatory then fixed wing. I learned in the civilian world but all of my instructors were former military (all branches). Great video!
I love watching experts in their field cover articles written about concepts or incidents in their field for clarification. It just shows that the people writing these articles need to have a background in the field that they are writing in to ensure they aren't misinforming the public. It's why in my primary field of interest (My background is in earth science) I skip articles and just read the actual journals written by actual scientists. We need more pilots and aviation experts to get into this sort of journalism so that people can have a better understanding as to what is going on in the field of aviation.
I reckon the reflex to "I need power" for a fixed winger is "push throttle forward" meaning extending the left arm, which results in dropping the collective in a helicopter.
I was an Army Cobra SIP with more than 2000 hours of IP/SIP time. Except for currency rides with Cobra qualified pilots, virtually every pilot I transitioned into the Cobra was new to the aircraft. Even with qualified rotary wing pilots I always guarded the controls during critical training maneuvers.
Great point re: fixed wing experience being almost a liability. Same thing goes with open circuit experienced when you go to transition to a closed-circuit rebreather (read: military-style, no bubbles). Things that would be the proper move on open circuit can kill you pretty quick on a CCR.
I had the opportunity to fly a UH1 as a first helicopter flight. I’m a fixed wing pilot and RC helicopter pilot with decent ability with the RC helicopters. I knew what to do but execution was a handful. From my opinion, the real one is much harder to fly than the RC. I was able hover, then did two pattern approaches to hover and the forward flight to an airport 30 minutes away where I got mental saturation and would have crashed without my buddy taking over. Over control was the issue that I fought.
I liked your diaper comment. We had a similiar thing happen in the Civil Air Patrol. CAP had a rather large inventory of O-1 Bird Dogs at the squadron level. Because a guy in the New Jersey Wing ground looped one, causing substantial damage to the aircraft and causing a minor injury to his passenger, the Air Force prohibited the use of any conventional aircraft and removed all the O-1s from the CAP fleet. The O-1's were a great SAR aircraft. Instead of making sure that people were proficient in tail draggers, and if not, require training ... we all had to wear diapers by losing a good asset. I hope the Army doesn't take the easy way out with this and does make a solid program for giving rides. Also, I wonder if the F-35 pilot was very current with flying in general.... especially if he was a full bird. I wonder if that might have been a flight pay flight?
I wonder if the IP not being on the controls and the multiple do-overs had anything to do with a Colonel being in the number 2 seat and a Warrant being in the number 1. It would be interesting to hear the cockpit coms druring all of this.
How does chain of command work in a situation like that? I know there's still a lot of details we don't know about this incident. But let's say after the each attempt the warrant officer said, "Ok, that's enough." But the colonel pulls rank and says, "No, give me another chance." Can the warrant officer refuse (disobey?) without consequence? Or is the warrant officer in a rock and hard place situation?
@@SVSky Yes. That makes sense. So, despite whatever is on their collar or sleeve, the one designated "commander" always "out ranks" the other person regardless.
@@frankbieser The Army places the Pilot In Command in absolute authority regardless of rank, however they also caution about "excessive professional courtesy" when a PIC is flying with a senior ranking leader. Meaning, " I know you are a General or Brigade Commander but you must follow my directives or instructions related to the operation of this aircraft explicitly." In all my flights with senior ranking leadership every one of them, regardless of rank, were professional and had no problem understanding I was in charge of the flight and aircraft. That being said, you showed the rank the respect due but also showed the lack of their flying experience the respect due as well.
@@Catch_The_Irishman I never really understood why, but a W-4 or especially a W-5 gets a pass when it involves professional courtesy toward Generals and Colonels. It's almost like the General is a muscular body-builder or professional football player and the W-5 is the skinny little Korean with a quadruple black-belt in every oriental fighting skill, who put the General in a coma once 10 years ago.
My brother in law, retired CW5 Black Hawk pilot told me from the start the 2 are Apple and oranges when it comes to Choppers and Fix Wing. When the osprey were crashing at the start, the first thing he told me was they were taking fix wing pilots who were not really trained to be chopper pilots. He said that they should have made chopper pilots fly them first. He was telling me hovering and flight in a strait line was a big difference. Too much petal left or right would end up in a crash really quickly. Petal in a chopper is taught, but you have to learn by flying them on a daily. Being that he started off in the Army Band he said it was like going from Tuba to Sax, not too many people can do it.
12 years flying the Apache. Never flew with unqualed pilots, but a metric fuck ton of butter bars. Always guarded the controls when at less than 100 agl. Always thought it was b/c I was just a control freak. When guarding the controls, if an input ever felt different that what I would have done myself, my spidey sense would immediately kick in and I would be locked in 100% on what was happening. 100% of that incident is on the back seater..
A few years back, my son got interested in RC aircraft. The club was lucky enough to have an instructor pilot who was Navy fighter pilot from Korean was and a commercial pilot on medical retirement. During leaves he qualified for every active duty Navy plane, fighter, multi engine prop, everything except helicopters. Can you imagine he could land jets on aircraft carriers but not choppers. They must be harder than we think.
I flew a Sea King on an orientation flight and whilst eyes out the cockpit, everything seemed OK, it was only when it was pointed out that we were climbing because I had too much collective that I tunnel visioned on the instruments. Big birds need a lot of attention.
I've always wanted to get a chance to sit in an AH-64 sim just to see how close I could get to not wrecking it immediately based only on DCS training. The ultimate version of "Can some idiot with no real experience fly a helicopter?".
To all the haters. My flight did not happen in a "Viper." It happened in a Fighting Falcon that had nothing to do with Lockheed. It was December 5th 1985. I agree one young SSgt from the bomb dump didn't know much about about the F-16, but what I do know, is everything I told you is gospel-truth, as I remember it. I am absolutely certain I rode in the front. No one had cell phones or Go-Pro's in 1985 so no pictures or video. I have my logbook entry he made. I'll post it in a minute. A couple of months after my incentive flight, I took my private checkride and counted that 1.3 or 1.4 in my 40 hours required. The Tampa DPE, Mr. Leslie told me that jet time in the first 40 was really odd but he counted it. Col. Kramer and I did something related to the Special Olympics parade in town but I don't remember what it was. I do not remember how the startup was conducted. The crew chief may have done it reaching over? Our call signs were "Speedy __ and Speedy __.". The jet was Red Squadron (72nd). Tail Number was 79-0424. It now belongs to Israel. I can't figure how to post a picture here. I'll try ctrl-v. Didn't work. Link to my training signoff the day prior. facebook.com/photo/?fbid=10225251355297644&set=a.1099438852900 Link to his entry in my logbook. I suspect Col. Kramer was about 50 back then so he's probably 90 now. We were not the flight lead. We were #2 in a 2-ship formation. The other jet had a prior F-4 pilot (student) who was transitioning to the F-16. His instructor was also in the back seat of his jet. They filed IFR. We did not. I didn't even know what a radar-trail departure was at that time. Here's the link to his logbook entry, all in his writing. I didn't remember it until now but he even logged 24 minutes of ACTUAL DUAL IFR in my logbook. That's 4 minutes climbing out and 20 minutes for three approaches. facebook.com/photo/?fbid=10225251596103664&set=a.1099438852900 I'm telling you guys, I'm not lying or embellishing. It was a "non-dedicated sortie" and I just filled a seat that would have been empty. We did not do an unlimited climb. When we arrived at the operating area out over the gulf, still in formation and Kramer flying, both aircraft did g-awareness maneuvers -right 180 @ 7g then left 180 @ 9g. Then the F-4 guy wen N and we went S until 20 or 40 miles apart, can't remember. We both did 1/2 Cubans and Kramer and the other jet did some radar magic to try to evade. I was given the controls and told to just fly N, str&level. He put his left hand across my shoulder and tried to point where to be looking for the enemy. He said excitedly "see him!" Before I could count to two, he zoomed by at a closure rate nearing 1000 kts. We did a few more ACM maneuvers that never put me close to the other jet. After what seemed like 1/2 hour, our lead left and went to finish their objectives somewhere else. Col. Kramer just coached me through some aerobatics, showing me aircraft reference points that I could use to try to keep my paths straight, 45, vertical, level. It was tough. I was having trouble with a short stick that hardly moved. I did my first roll and when I ended it, I banged our helmets on the canopy 4 or 5 times hunting level. He coached me on a speed-run through mach so I could earn my certificate. We headed back to Tampa and about 20 out, he took the controls for his required rear seat 6 month or annual quals. Into the thick overcast we went for a no-gyro PAR. I remember the controller telling him to check gear down/locked. I think he told me to let him know if we had green lights up front. Then the controller told him not to talk on the radio and to do 1/2 rate turns. We broke out at maybe 250 ft and he did a touch n go. The rain was very heavy but I don't remember any wind. Back up into the clouds and radar vectors for another approach, I can't remember what kind. The 3rd approach was not one of his training requirements I don't think, because he invited me lightly feel what he was doing on the controls. It was a fullstop. Nasty nasty rain. I sat in for the debrief with the guys that were in the other jet. I couldn't tell what was being talked about and they went so fast. After the other crew left, we talked for at least another hour. Kramer told me to go to the car and get my logbook. He asked me how sick I got. I told him that as we arrived back at MacDill for the three approaches, it was all I could do to hold it down. Mask off, 100% oxygen, and enviro ice fog coming out both A/C nozzles in front of me, blowing hard, fight on my face. It was an experience of my life. I'm staring right now at the resin-model General Dynamics gave me. I wrote the wing commander a nice thank you because, he made my ride happen pretty quickly. In the receiving line after my NCO Leadership School graduation, he shook my hand and said "Son, congratulations on being the John Levitow Honor Graduate, is there anything I can do for you?" I replied "Yessir, I'd like an F-16 ride." He just smiled and said loudly, "THAT'S ALL!...That's easy." Colonel Cash was a little like Ronald Reagan. I can't make you "That's BS" guys believe me. You probably won't believe I caught a military hop once from Texas to GA. The ops guy told me to get on the plane. I expected a C-130. When I asked him when my plane was lading, he pointed at the VC-140. Myself and a 3-star general were the only pax.
@@justsmy5677 You are a know-it-all. Yes. You are right. Do you honestly think LtCol. Kramer would have memorialized the word "front,'" if he was doing something risky. I cannot tell you why he made the logbook entry the way he did. I can tell you I posted his writing, just as he wrote it. I cannot tell you why he put me in the front seat. I just know he certainly did. While you are picking things apart, my training sheet doesn't show a "parachute drag" and how to "dump fuel" in an emergency and where, but those things also happened too. I must admit, if some stranger told me all this, and conveniently didn't have pictures, at least before and after the ride, I'd not believe them. I would keep the "BS" thoughts to myself but tag the guy as a liar in my mind. You just go on believing it didn't happen, and I'll continue knowing it did. No harm done. One of us was there almost four decades ago, one wasn't. If some stranger told me he parked his FAA Certificated Helicopter under his carport with his wife's car, and flew it to work on clear days, and on many Saturdays rolled it out and flew his 3 y/o daughter to McDonalds...I'd call BS on that too, but facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10219964748535779&set=pb.1434527041.-2207520000&type=3
@@bryancobb - Sorry, but it is just NOT believable. First you say “the documentation is in my logbook”, then you say “oh, the logbook documentation (by an FAA certificated CFI) was intentionally written wrong (wink wink). I flew F-4s is a squadron that was converting to F-16s. The first F-16 we received was a two seat D model. Every F-4 pilot who wanted a ride in the Viper got a ride. Fully qualified F-4 pilots had to fly in the BACK seat with the F-16 IP in the front seat. There is no way a non rated ammo troop could fly in the front seat and a fully qualified/current USAF F-4 pilot was not allowed to fly in the front seat. It just did not happen! If something like that was legal and approved by the Air Force, there would be dozens of guys who would have done it. There would be hundreds of USAF pilots who would have done it. You can Bullsh!t your average Joe on the street or in a bar. But you can not Bullsh!t guys who flew or maintained fighter jets. You should stick to stories about how you can bench 475 pounds or you have a 10 inch weenie! Those stories would be more believable. I’m through wasting time interfacing with a Bullshitter living in a fantasy World.
Great discussion--I'm a long-time CFII. WO should have never taken his hands off the controls, at least anywhere near the ground. Bad experience for all involved, and they broke a perfectly good aircraft. That's never a good thing.
What torques me off about the news coverage is that they don't link the actual report that they got through a FOIA request (which has gone through the military's Public Affairs wickets and approved for public release, they could wallpaper their house with it if they wanted to). Instead, you have to read some reporter's jacked-up 5th-grade interpretation of it.
I guess the reporter felt he had to "dumb it down" for the average reader. A lot gets lost in the translation. It happens on all accidents reported by non-aviators. It's frustrating.
@@johnmclean6498 Most people who read this stuff know something about it and the reporter doesn't realize that he/she is the dumba$$ rock of the group. In a news agency, the "military expert", "foreign-policy expert", and any other "expert" is the person who hired on when that desk was vacant. CNN actually had a story up on their TV channel about the space shuttle Columbia accident with the banner headline "shuttle was travelling 18 times the speed of light". Not exactly the cream of the crop in that profession.
@@johnmclean6498 There is a song from I think 1982 which goes, "Bubbleheaded bleach blonde comes on a five, tells you about the plane crash with a gleam in her eye. I coulda been an actor but I wound up here, I just have to look good, don't have to be clear." And then there's the thing where depending on which report and how recent, the average adult reading level in the USA is about 7th grade level. Again varying with which report on which date, the average attention span of US adults, not toddlers, adults, is between 8 to 12 seconds.
@@scottfw7169 That's something the news media and government embellish as an excuse to run your life. "Sorry, gotta run your life for you because you're too stupid to do it." Yes, there's that 6-8% that will believe anything but it's not as bad as you think.
I had a student complain that I was too on the controls with him when he was first learning to fly. The Government flight inspector was there and he said that for a students first experiences learning helicopters I should be all over the controls to avoid just this scenario. I would use my knees and thumb and index finger to give them a block to work in where they could only move the controls so far. Never had a crash and all my students passed their flight tests. High time instructors sit there with their hands on their laps while students do autos. It only takes one mistake and you can never fix it fast enough when you are a few feet off the ground.
Having done both would you say the helicoptor is harder? More cordination required? We had both at our base.Blackhawks/C130s. Each of them said they were harder.
Rotary is harder. Hovering alone requires fine motor control over all three axes at once while simultaneously understanding how each control input affects the others so that the pilot can also input the counter movements. that alone makes it more challenging to fly.
@@dafox0427 I have heard multiple times its like balancing on the head of a pin. We had Warrant Officers who were rockstars in the hueys later blackhawks. They made it look easy.
Too many uninformed comments here. Much talk about how the qualified pilot did not monitor closely enough. I fly both fixed and rotary and they are completely different: fixed wings are naturally stable and helicopters are dynamically unstable; they try to go lateral *at all times*. You have to simultaneously manage cyclic and stick which interact. It's like somebody qualified to ride a horse thinking he can transition to a bicycle. For more information, follow CWLemoine's actual experience in learning rotor skills.
Seen this with AF Pavehawks. The "old man" would want to fly and the pilot would be too timid to correct the Col/General. All those CRM things we do were set aside because of who the VIP pilot is. I can't tell you how many close calls I had with an unqualified O-5/6/7 on the controls that just wanted some stick time.
Yes, exactly. And in my experience, it's usually in the mind of the junior. My first fleet assignment was stashed as training officer in a Headquarters and Maintenance Squadron flying OA-4Ms, and we were tasked with currency flying for the Wing brass. They were always short of night time and bombing currency, so night bombing was a favorite (45 degree night dives into the ridiculously small working area over Camp Pendleton). After about the third time of nearly spoiling my flight suit, I started briefing the colonel du jour: "in the back seat there is a 195 pound altimeter override; get one knot fast, one degree steep or one foot low, and this aircraft will recover." Usually got a chuckle, Wing G-3 told me: "that's right Lieutenant; don't you let me kill us."
Retired Army aviator here. The AH-64 is an easy aircraft to fly, as helicopters go. I spent more hours in an OH-58 than an Apache, and the Apache was much easier to fly. It is stable in a hover, its controls are responsive without being too sensitive or twitchy, and it has enough power to get you out of a bad situation. Most Apache accidents happen during mission training, at night, in a hover, in a confined area, in a multi-ship flight, or going inadvertent IMC. To go out on a familiarization flight in one and crash it takes some real ham-handedness. Sounds like the SIP should have his ass kicked.
Thanks for a nice explanation. Airplane pilots in helicopters is always interesting. I do both and when a student has seized wing experience i guard the controls more closely. The one that has gotten me is teaching IFR go arounds, in transition training. Airplane pilots will nose up and thats not helpful. Once they are out of airspeed they are also often out of ideas. I just got checked out on tailwheel, its humbling while learning, great when it clicks. Sometimes other experience is helpful, but not always. Be safe out there and always be ready to guard those controls.
Helo approach vs airplane approach: We come to a complete stop before we touch down 😉. And yes, during the last phase of the approach, >300fpm decent +
I have done fam flights in the UH-1H and the UH-60L. The person on the ride was not ever authorized to be at a flight station. Obviously, in the Apache, the person on the ride has to be at a flight station. I have been retired a long time so maybe things have changed, but we were never authorized to allow a person on a fam ride to take the controls regardless of their rank or qualifications in other aircraft. Prior to becoming a pilot, I was a crew chief and went on maintenance test flights with the test pilot. I would fly in the left seat and the pilots almost always let me fly for a bit. Some of the guys got a chance to try to hover. It was not authorized and would be a serious career impediment if you had an accident while allowing a crew chief to fly. I doubt this Colonel should have ever been on the controls .You know what it's like. Hovering is completely different than flying an airplane. I'm also fix wing rated so I can also make that comparison. No fighter pilot would be able to hover a Huey and make a takeoff without a few hours of flight training. Even with the SAS system in the Blackhawk, it would be tough. Translational lift effects alone would be baffling to an airplane pilot. Airplanes want to fly. Helicopters want to kill you. It's a very different environment.
![BOWKYLION - วิงวอน (ex-change) [Official MV]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/cLdnZWDaO-w/mqdefault.jpg)
30 year CW5 speaking here. This was clearly an "Instructor Pilot failed to take corrective action in a timely manner" accident. AR 95-1 authorizes unqualified personnel to fly in an Army aircraft for mission familiarization flight with a qualified Standardization Instructor Pilot as authorized by the first Aviation O-6 in the chain of command. That being said, simulation has come so far these days I question why this needs to occur at all. I have done several of these orientation flights in UH-60, MH-60, MC-12 and ARL Turbo Props and all of them were in a combat theater usually involving a senior leader who is now in the briefing chain who is unfamiliar with the mission. Thanks for the channel and High Five to Gonky!
I don't have any military flight time. I do fly in the civilian world. But I did spend years engineering simulation systems. Had the chance to fly the high end sims for many vehicles, and hovering the Apache was the hardest thing I've ever done in that respect. So much power and control authority, I don't know even how you make use of all that.
By contrast, I also flew the OH-58 sim, and was easy by comparison. Flying down city streets doing hammerhead turnarounds, nbd. But then I was the guest of the Navy and tried out the V-22 sim, and it was disconcerting how the automation of the stabilized control system made me feel disconnected. There was no need to concentrate on hover, just bump the throttle up, it jumps up and sits there. Even in a crosswind, no compensation needed by the pilot. I'm guessing if the F-35 has a similar stabilized feel, the guest pilot was unprepared for the hand-eye workload.
And yes, I would agree the doing these fam rides in the sim would probably be the way to go if the guest is expecting to do some of the driving. Or make sim time a prereq of the flight.
No doubt. This kind of thing has been going on forever. I was reading the book "Where BUFF-fellows Roam" (author has the last name Hoopaw) who was a B-52 pilot from the early 60s to the early-1980s. During Vietnam they always had O-6 wing commander types and generals that got VIP rides and wanted to perform a landing and some of those got real sketchy. He talked about some of the near-accidents he's had and thought the practice was out of control and should be banned. This was going on with Vietnam ARC LIGHT missions. The more things change, the more they stay the same.
One point of levity is that the safety briefings to the VIP generals were funny as hell. He would tell them, "When the aircrew is preparing to eject, I strongly suggest that you go below and bail out when I advise it, sir. BUT the choice is yours. After the aircrew ejects, you're the Aircraft Commander, sir."
@@johngoscinski1995 In actuality aircraft like the UH-60 and AH-64 all have a assist for hover such as SAS (stability augmentaion system) with heading hold or similar systems making them much easier to hover than an OH-58 (Jetranger) or OH-6 (MD500) which uses the pilot for stabalization and heading hold. No simulator fully replicates flying the actual aircraft. The only time I let an unqualified pilot actually fly the aircraft was if it was a Fam or Mission orientation flight with a qualified sister service pilot, like an USAF HH-60 pilot in my MH-60 for TTP (Tactics, Techniques and Procedures) exchange, other than that if we were not at altitude, I always would ghost ride the controls and block the pedals to prevent wrong pedal input which can have catastrophic results during take off, landing or close proximity terrain operations (turf flight as the Navy says) in a fixed wing or rotorcraft. Many helos have crashed because a front seat passenger or unqualified pilot grabs an unguarded collective in a moment of panic or excitement. The collective pitch change will not only make a helo go up and down but will also make them go "boom" when in close proximity to the ground. Peace.
@@Skank_and_Gutterboy Very true. As The Who sang "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss!"
@@Catch_The_Irishman
Haha!!!
Fun note pertaining to Fam-Ride (Non-Dedicated Sortie), and Incentive Flight (Dedicated Sortie). In December 1985, I was a young SSgt. in the bomb dump at MacDill AFB. I was about 36 hours into to earning my private license at Peter O'Knight. I had already taken the FAA written. On December 5, I got a ride in an F-16. I always called it my incentive flight.
The Lt. Colonel that gave me my ride was also an FAA certified instructor CFI, civilian-wise. I worked with him a couple of hours the day before, so that I could operate the stuff he would not have access to. When he learned I was about to be a licensed pilot, my flight took on another profile. He told me to bring my log book and he'd log me 1.4 hours of dual INSTRUCTION IN SEL (F-16).
Then he told me he was due for his annual rear seat instructing qualification. So if I didn't object, I'd be in the front seat and we would be a 2-ship formation Fam-Flight. I was excited. He put me through a harness hang and we went to the marina for a "parachute drag. I watched canopy safety videos where frozen chickens were shot into canopies as tests. I learned how to dump fuel in the bay, how to operate the harness lock lever, and how to operate the environmental controls including oxygen control. He took me to life support and got my suit, helmet, mask, and scarf.
My flight was unbelievable. We were #2 in a 2-ship, radar-trail departure, into a 100' heavy overcast with light rain. In a cloud just 5 ft. away from another jet was crazy! I hadn't done the alt. chamber so we were limited to 10k. We punched out of the ovc. about 2000ft. so it was not stormy. He let me fly for about 1 hour, myself. Myself and the other guy (transitioning from F-4's) practiced ACM until almost sick.
We left and headed for the base. MacDill was socked-in. About 850 ft. ceilings. Col. Kramer took the controls from me and briefed me on the landing. He first did a controller-assisted PAR (Precision Approach Radar.) approach almost to minimums. Then we did a Loc Back Course, with simulated failed gyros. Col. Kramer got his training, I went super-s, I did an ILS to a low approach, but it was not great. Log book entry by CFI Kramer. We landed to a full stoop in torrential downpours, on a wet runway. I never barfed but coming back home made me nauseous, but 100% O2 at full blast 2 stopped that. The chance of a lifetime.
Sounds like a BS story to me. Ain't no way a qualified F-16 pilot and Colonel would let an unqualified NCO with minimal flight experience fly in the front seat of a B or D model. Any pilot that did that would be arrested and court marshalled. Rear seat qual's are done with a fully qualified IP in the front seat. I'm sure folks that have no experience are impressed with your tall tale but I'm not!
Well, the tube deleted my comment because I used an inappropriate word. Basically, I said this sounds like a tall tale. Those that have no experience might be impressed but I'm not.
This is really cool !!! Thanks for sharing
Having flown the F-4 and F-15 I find this impossible to believe.
How did the IP crank the JFS?
What would you do in the event of an engine fire?
What would you do in the event of brake or NG steering failure?
It’s been a long time since I had a Viper ride, but there are NO JFS switches, or Fire pushbuttons in the backseat of the F-15…the Viper is probably similar.
Letting you fly in the front seat is stupid, dangerous and probably illegal! I find it impossible to believe that an F-16 flight lead would agree to lead a flight like that! Let alone allow you to ACM!!
Taking off into a 100 ft overcast??? Really? What was your emergency return plan? What was the IPs weather Cat??
The IP let you shoot an ILS on a crappy weather day when the overhead was closed and every jet on base was shooting an instrument approach??
Please post (an unaltered) pick of the log book entry with Col Kramer signature.
If this story is legit, and no rules were broken neither you or Col Kramer will have any problem with posting the pic.
BTW - when the Commander of USAFE, who is a fully qualified F-16 pilot came to RAF Lakenheath he got an F-15E flight.
He was scheduled to fly in the front seat with a fully qualified IP
Before he could fly in the front seat of the jet, he had to have a brief academic lesson and an Emergency Procedure Sim and demonstrate proficiency in operating all the switches the IP could not operate from the back seat. In other words, he had to start the engines and be able to operate the throttles/fingerlifts. He was given hydraulic failures resulting wheel brake failure, and Nose Gear Steering Failure. He was given multiple engine fire/failures and AMAD fire. He was given a blown tire on landing.
He was given EPs in all phases of flight and logged a 1.5 hr sim mission.
Post the pic!
@@justsmy5677 I totally agree with you. I'm a retired maintainer/crew chief with more than 30 years experience on the F-16. I'm also a private pilot. I was very familiar with the F-16 cockpit, much more than an Ammo guy would be. I was qualified engine run and for a couple years we were allowed to do taxi checks I did fly the simulator a couple times and I did OK with the basic flying. So when I got my incentive flight I thought, this'll be easy. I wasn't! I was totally out of my element. Pulling G's was downright painful. @bryancobb makes it sound like it was a walk in the park. Or maybe it was just a dream?
True story - years ago, I was a crew chief in the Marines deployed to the Med on a helicopter carrier. We were anchored off the coast of Greece supporting some training operation there. The PIC of our UH-1N Huey was a captain and because the Huey required only one pilot, I flew left seat that day. That was very common. The pilot, who really was a good stick, ran into a friend of his who was a major flying F-15s. The major was as cocky as they come and swore he could strap that bird on and fly as well as anyone. The pilot put him into the left seat and I got in the back. He literally taught the major how to fly it and being fair, the major did a good job. Until we needed gas and needed to go back to the ship. The pilot let the major land on the deck and I was terrified. There were 30' scrapes across the flight deck from the skids. Yellow shirts were running away. I unplugged my ICS cable, got out, and went to my bunk trying not to throw up while he was refueling. They had to get one of the guys on flight deck duty that day (if we weren't flying, we had to stay on the flight deck during flight ops) to leave because they couldn't find me. The major, and especially the captain who I really did like, could have killed a lot of people that day. They were overconfident, careless, and just plain stupid. I have no doubt the F-35 pilot in this case thought he would make that helo his bitch when in reality, hovering and low speed maneuvering are very difficult at first. Even an idiot like me could fly a Huey at 1000' at 90 knots (which pretty much was all they would give us stick time). But these people underestimated the complexity of flying something not straight and level.
It is soooo much harder to fly a helicopter. I feel like your hand eye coordination has to be far better than the majority of people, and you have your eyes doing two things at once with all your gear. You guys have my absolute respect. Having watched once, you guys are awesome.
Retired CW4 Apache pilot here…the 64 is a 2 pilot aircraft, and for a non-rated individual to fly in it, a letter of authorization is required. I agree with what you and others have said regarding the IP failing to react in a timely fashion…he is the one that will be found at fault. An interesting thing about the AH-64 flight controls that may have influenced his reluctance to back up the other pilot by being on the controls with him is the Back-Up Control system known as BUCs…it was made in case of battle damage that might jam on of the pilot’s controls, the other can “break out” by pushing against the jam. The draw back to that is if you break out the other pilot will not longer have controls that function…this can be overcome, but it requires time to be able to do it. It’s the main reason that if I were doing a flight like this, I would be extremely careful about how I would transfer the controls if I would even do it at all. It seems fairly obvious that the Pilot in Command wasn’t as diligent as he should have been. I have been in units where we sought and got permission to fly our crew chiefs and other people who never get the change to fly the aircraft they work on. This was accomplished with no incidents over and over again and it would be a shame if the actions of one person would ruin that for everyone…but it definitely would be an “army” thing to do.
Read your book sir. Nice read and could not put it down! Thank you!
@@crash8926 thanks for that…glad you enjoyed it.
"Oh no! It's BUCS! I'm gonna let some guy crash us because we might roll an ARD!" If I had thought that while teaching at Hanchey I wouldn't have survived teaching the first week of contact let alone teaching the bag LOL. ;)
@@jakexou812 I’m just spitballing…trying to come up with a reason why he wouldn’t follow on the controls…yes BUCs is dumb, but you try and come up with a reason.
@@DanMcClintonAdded your book to my reading list based on his recommendation.
Before I retired I was an MH-60 Jayhawk pilot in the Coast Guard. We’d frequently do familiarization and incentive flights with pilots from other services especially if they were considering changing branches. The army Blackhawk pilots were the most interesting. It’s basically the same aircraft but a completely different kind of flying. We rarely handed over the controls to a fixed wing pilots without lots of additional training.
Former mil ATC Australia. Two notable experiences in my time in. A 5 hour jump seat ride in a Chinook, what a great fireside chat between 2 pilots and an ATC to better understand each others roles and constraints.
Half hour at the controls of a Kiowa under instruction because of specific helicopter operational constraints that the squadron wanted ATC to better empathise with. Controls were guarded particularly in the hover attempt.
Invaluable learning for both sides of the equation in both cases.
Curious if any pressure was put on the instructor due to ‘rank?’
usually is
Probably not. Ego most likely.
Ego tends to increase as rank increases.
helicopter hovering is the most humbling learning experience
Seriously. I've been flying for over 2 decades, I'm a CFI and ATP. Just flew rotorwing for the first time a few weeks ago, and hovering the thing was so damn hard! Everything else was fairly manageable, but goddamn, hovering is hard!
“One person sh*ts themselves, now everyone has to wear diapers” 😂 I never heard this one but 100% understand the concept! 😅
That's the same concept the politicians use when some dummy goes on a shooting spree. Then they want to take everybody's guns.
I've been waiting for your take on this...
Your broad and deep experience, coupled with sincere humility, is appreciated to shed light on occurrences like this. You deserve a much expanded audience.
Great presentation Mover. I really enjoy your work from Australia.
Former apache pilot here... seen a bunch of fam rides-- Usually the BN SIP will be in the back seat for these rides, and just from experience the only scenario I can come up with is transistioning to forward flight from an IGE hover. at around 40 knots you outrun your ground effect and will start to descend. if you aren't prepared for it, it can be startling. Kind of makes sense that a fighter pilot would firewall throttle to gain airspeed-- but that motion in a helo translates to collective down. If the back seater wasn't on the collective this could have happened.
When I was at Kadena in mid-90s there was HH-3 Class A accident. They were part of local ORI; the way they did it then was to ‘swap’ runways between the tankers/helos & F-15s; in other words they operated off the other runway that they typically used.
So, a typhoon was coming so they terminated the exercise. The HH-3 was what they called ‘air taxiing’ (in other words flying at about 5 feet of altitude). They were passing rather close to an F-15 that was being towed; everyone on the helo was watching to make sure that they cleared the F-15. No one was watching the light pole on other side (of a part of the ramp that they were not used to be on). Blade struck the pole; 4 (of 5) went flying, one killing the F-15 crew chief. Both pilots on helo knocked unconscious. The blade that stayed on the helo caught on the pole and the whole thing was rotating around the pole until a firefighter jumped onboard & killed the engine.
The name of the crew chief is now of the F-15 gate guard by gate 1 at Kadena.
We were stationed at Kadena from 85-88. My dad flew Jolley Green Giants at the time before transitioning to Pavehawks in 92/93. I was just a kid, but I remember my dad flew a mission to rescue a F15 pilot that ejected off the coast of Okinawa. Also some of my parents good friends died in a crash. From my understanding they were hoovering over the ocean at night, but they became disoriented, and were actually going backwards, and descending slightly, and the tail hit the water. I believe the helicopter flipped over itself, and came down topside down, and obviously sank. I believe both pilots passed away, but I think the guys in the back were able to get out. That's how I always understood it, but it might not be 100% correct.
Thanks for posting this. My oldest brother was there at Kadena for that incident. It was one of the examples he used when he gave me the "you need to understand what you are signing up for" talk when I was getting ready to join the Marine Corps. Even though I still enlisted, that story never left me and it shaped a lot of my safety habits when working around helos.
I was in one of the Harriers on an adjacent ramp, also typhoon-evacing. F-15 was under tow, HH-3 (ground) taxiing the opposite direction. Both tried to edge away from the other and the helo clipped one of the concrete light poles . . . it disappeared in a cloud of concrete dust, and blade fragments flew everywhere. We shut down to avoid FOD.
The HH-3 bounced around wildly until the transmission broke, finally coming more or less to rest but still smoking and shaking, and one crazy guy ran up the rear ramp and shut it down. Bravest thing I ever saw.
That's an expensive lessson.
During my time in the Marine Corps as a CH-46E crewchief, when flying with my CO, he landed and had me get in the left seat while the co-pilot climbed in the back. He them proceeded to teach me how to take off vertically and hover. He kept his hands and feet on the flight controls the entire time to teach me how to do it. He never let me have the controls by myself. We did this several times during my time in the squadron. This included transitioning to fwd flight from a hover. It was really interesting to get that opportunity.
I used to play the Comanche computer game a long time ago. The game gives you a sense of just how difficult it is to fly helicopter.
If you want to make an F-16 pilot crazy, just tell him truthfully that his pilot skills don't hold a candle to the helicopter pilots out there.
@@Skank_and_Gutterboy
TBH, many F-16 pilots cant even handle a Citabria.
Mate I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not lol but I played the hell out of Comanche 4 when I was young and it would hover itself at any altitude if you let go of the joystick.. Microsoft Flight Simulator is a much more accurate representation
Oh, try to be a helicopter pilot in Squad. For me the hardest game to fly.
@@Yyr85 if you think that's bad, try a helicopter is a more accurate simulation
Flying fixed wing is like driving a car with a manual transmission. Flying a chopper is like walking, chewing gum, juggling fire batons, yodeling, and scratching your nuts at the same time. Ask me how I know. 🤣 It is definitely harder to transition from fixed to rotary than from rotary to fixed. I've flown the 500, 206, 222 and 430. When I messed with a R22, it was like all my skills were rusted tight. (Since you mentioned the Robinson.) I'd say the IP will get hammered hard, but I suspect the colonel will get called on the carpet as well.
You re-attacked the rotorcraft rating? Commercial ticket? BRAVO!
The same question came to mind when he said he had his Commercial ticket. I must have missed all that when it happened. Glad to hear he got back to it.
@@dciimho2798 Me too, and watching part of the video where he explained why he stopped he came off as clearly having a valid reason. Like, even if it turned out his understanding of the situation wasn't accurate, feeling that way is a good enough reason. If I recall, it was about losing faith in the safety of the rented helicopter and the way other people who were renting it were doing things.
All good pilots are humble.The more experience you get, the more humble you get. Being humble does NOT mean that you don't have self confidence or self esteem. Being humble means that you know your limitations, and and that you are only a human being, after all.
Best comment. With universal application. I'm surprised it's not very popular.
The F-35 pilot was a bird colonel. I believe that his rank was intimidating to the CWO leading him to be reluctant to take control away from the colonel.
This reminds me of a crash in the mid 70s at Randolph. The wing commander was promoted BG and was taking off to his new assignment in a T-38 with a captain on board. As you may recall the T-38 pitches nose up at an airspeed I don’t recall. Anyway, the general was taking off and (apparently without warning) decided he’d do a roll on takeoff. While inverted the aircraft passed through the critical airspeed and pitch “nose up” except when inverted the aircraft flew into the runway killing all onboard.
Two lessons:
VIP and/or Rank disparity can cause people to not do things they ordinarily would do.
“Students” will try to kill you.
@@richardbriscoe8563 I was a CWO for 30 years. I never met an SP doing a fam ride or mission orientation flight with a non aircraft qualified pilot, regardless of rank, that was afraid to take the controls. In all practicality this Col was probably doing a good job hovering until he wasn't and if he was doing a good job, the SP probably let his guard down. That being said the Army experience level is half of what it was 20 years ago so that may have been a contributing factor. Example 20 years ago all company Standardization Instructor Pilots were CW4s and today it is commonly a CW3 and often an inexperienced CW2. The Army did this to itself through a stupid shift in political correctness which caused thousands of experienced warriors to tap out.
I don't think a a CW4 is intimidated by an O-6, especially when the CW4 is PIC of his aircraft and the O-6 is on a fam flight in an aircraft he has no experience in.
@@FacelessMan777 100%
@@FacelessMan777 I don't disagree. A CW4 has a LOT of smoke. I never made it beyond "spot" WO1 because I started failing my flight physicals. But, two classmates of mine spent their careers in the 160th, and both retired as CW5's. We all stay in touch. They tell me that as a W-5, they could tell an obnoxious Colonel to go away and he'd mind them.
Agree with you 100% on all counts. Another reason an OGE hover is less advisable is that you don't catch it as fast when you start to drift because you have less ground reference. Yes, the Apache has symbology to help but there's no way that would have been a help to an unqualified pilot.
Related point, the Apache's visibility forward and down absolutely sucks. That makes high hovering a little harder and definitely makes approaches harder. There's techniques to get around that, but again, that's not something for a fam flight!
I'm guessing that colonel face-planted himself into the TEDAC; it wouldn't surprise me if that rehabilitation is learning to talk with a shattered face.
@@ald1144 The Apache has OGE capability in most training circumstances and also has a Hover Stabalization mode that locks the aircraft in space, so to speak, to reduce pilot workload when conducting an engagement from a hover. Without ordinance loaded, that aircraft would have had no issue hovering OGE. Realistically the AH-64 could have been hovering at 50 feet in ground effect allowing time for corrective action. The failure was allowing an unqualified pilot to attempt a landing. The AH-64 has a notoriously tricky CG (center of gravity) on touchdown with a high platform on a narrow gear placement making it susceptiple to "dynamic rollover" exceeding the critical angle to recover from a rolling moment. Not a problem for an experienced pilot. Very tricky in dust brownout or snow whiteout. Most likely a younger IP, assuming the Colonel's high time experience, that he was good and he let his guard down. As C.W. Lemoine stated "why was he not on the flight controls?"
I'm forever grateful for the opportunity I had in a full motion MV-22 sim in the late 2000's. A good friend of mine was able to get me some MV-22 sim at the squadron I used to be in about 6 years after I got out. A lot of PC flight simulator experience before and after I was enlisted, and I was a final checkride away from my PPL but I couldn't get it finished before I had to ship to boot camp, so I had some general familiarity over say that of someone who had zero flight time.
I sat in the left seat and the IP (former O4 or O5, IIRC,) sat in the right, and he took me through pretty much one of everything that you can do in a V-22. Takeoff/landings on an LHD, aerial refueling, etc. Performing a max power takeoff in the sim was pretty amazing; that's the appeal of the V-22. Coming from avionics on a CH-46 to a V-22, I could certainly see firsthand how much better/easier (and more modern) an aircraft it was for the pilots to operate. I'm still amazed how those early CH-46 pilots in Vietnam were able to fly those things without AFCS.
He could ride the lightning, but not the dragon
To quote my favorite movie: “It an entirely different kind of flying, all together.”
It's an entirely different kind of flying.
It's an entirely different kind of flying.
No, old guy talk, Harriers were first brought on the scene you were required to have helo experience because the nozzle and throttle sorta worked like the collective and throttle in a helo. The monkey skills translated over. and it was found that it kinda worked in reverse as well. You could take a Harrier driver and quickly trained him up to be a helo driver as well. Enter the JSF. while it does the same thing as an harrier it gets to those results differently. All the monkey skill are not required in the JSF. George takes care of all the nuances. But the ricky ram jets out there seem to forget that Fact and seem to think they can just straight into a Helo and hover. Just my humble opinion or what he said.
It's not mentioned, but I got the impression that the pilot was USAF, not USMC, so would only have flown F-35A. But regardless, as Mover said for modern military fighters flying the plane is almost a secondary role for the pilot, so if he was a F-35B pilot, he still wouldn't know how to hover in a helicopter.
Mover's comment about may be he used the collective like a throttle, and I don't know the layout of throttles & stick in an F-35 vs which side of seat the collective is in an Apache, but in a high stress situation muscle memory isn't going to be your friend in this case.
As a doctor a lot of these mishaps are analogous to medical training. You never let a student or trainee get into a situation you CANNOT get them out of.
They should have played dcs
So he is just like the maverick in the top gun movie who thinks he knows how to fly Apache because he fly it in dcs so he could do it in reality
@@Grumman-8k dcs can get pretty realistic on the controls. Never will be the same but that's as far as training goes.
I'm an ex- RCAF tech, and I was actually put on the list for an incentive ride back in 96 during Maple Flag. I was assigned to the USAF Weapons guys, and they were so impressed with my effort they put me on the list. Sadly, I was still #3 when Flag ended, so I missed my chance. I did get a certificate of Appreciation from the CO of Red Flag, and a Red Flag poker chip. It was still cool being recognized for my efforts, but man, I wanted that ride when they told me they put me on the list...they pointed out I was the only non-USAF guy given that honor.
The Colonel is Ronald J. Sloma and he’s the Wing Commander of the 419th FW at Hill AFB. He has a background of flying F16s and transitioned to the F35.
I bet he was a full bird and I'm also willing to bet that played a roll in him even getting in that cockpit in that capacity. It also really makes you wonder if he flashed the brass a few times to get the PIC to let him do what he wanted instead of what was best.
What you said about responsibility makes sense. This has me interested in picking up the Apache in DCS :-)
I've been an ASEL private pilot since 2019, added instrument in 2020 and am training for my commercial now. Even then, when I'm flying with my instructor, they still guard the controls during critical phases of flight.
Love the Fire Birds movie clips. On point discussion, there is no way he should have had his hands off the controls. (20 hr DCS Huey pilot opinion)
Not only that, there is an auto hover function on the Apache. In case of panic, push button.
Who knew that flying a attack helicopter is very much different than flying a fighter jet
Obviously, it's not even remotely close to the same, but I still remember the first time I was flying around in DCS and tried the Ka-50 helicopter. I'd been flying flight sims since I was a kid. I started with the DCS-family with Flanker 2.5, so I've been flying that specific sim for probably 10 years by then.
I jumped into the Ka-50, lightly increased the collective...and immediately had that thing flip over and smash the rotors into the runway and then catch on fire. It's wild just how different your mindset has to be. Even worse was the first time I tried the Mi-8 without all of the lovely autopilot stabilization modes.
The pilots.
@@aaronwhite1786 Flying computer games is not the same as flying real aircraft. Flying the real aircraft is easier because you have real physical forces acting on your body, real physical forces and feedback on the flight controls, and real motion and altitude.
Try a REAL flight simulator instead if you want the computer games.
@@bryansimmons4550 "Try a REAL flight simulator instead if you want the computer games." I'm all for this. If the Army wants to let me fly a few rounds in their Apache sim to test my luck, I just want to publicly state, in case all of them are reading, that I am very open to this idea. I'll even pay for my own gas to get there!
Hes just stating the difference is large in computer games so it must be larger irl its just a comparison @bryansimmons4550
Fire Birds is an underrated movie. I remember watching when i was sick from elementary school in the mid 90's and it was on the movie channels
As a former CW2 Apache & Huey MedEvac pilot- no excuses...you're on point👉🏼
The Apache has a feature that will allow one seat to break the physical control of the collective, cyclic or pedals in case of controls being jammed. The controls then switch from fly by hydraulics mechanical linkage to fly by wire. The front seat could have pushed the collective so hard that it broke the collective away from the back seater giving the front seater fly by wire control of the collective. This would have given the front seater total control of the collective even if the back seater had his hand on the collective. This is designed for battle damage or if one pilot becomes injured and must have the controls forced from their hands.
There is a panic button on the Apache called auto hover. He should have been aware of the button and not to try and fiddle with controls.
@@orlock20where is this panic button labeled auto hover located? Don’t make shit up.
@@orlock20he wasn't trying to hover. He was attempting to land.
@@orlock20I’ve yet to see an auto hover or panic button in almost 30 years of flying Apaches. Lol. The fault in this case resides with the IP and no one else.
@@bks252 It's a function of the the forced trim switch for the D model which is just above the weapon action switch on the stick. The E model might be different.
I didn't know there was a dual control Apache. Learn something new everyday
I'm still learning how to walk like an Apache pilot. People start punching my face every time I get close.
I ABSOLUTELY AGREE with you on everything you stated regarding this incident. Warrant Officer SHOULD have been "Hands-On" the entire time. Bad move.
I thought the title meant he crashed a Piper Apache. A fighter pilot flying a GA airplane is a really bad idea.😂
Hey, mover, where can I find that awesome guitar riff at the end of your videos? Thanks!
This is on the same level of stupid as my local police department letting a officer/pilot remain in the Aviation Unit after he was ALMOST FIRED FOR DRINKING ALCOHOL ON DUTY. In a year they CRASHED 2 HELICOPTERS IN 4 MONTHS. I mean, come on man.....this accident was so easily avoidable it's painful.
F-35 is a Single seat Aircraft and it can be setup four Vertical take off with Areoframe.
Only the F-35B has VTOL.
Those aviation bugs when caught get very expensive
The worst classroom is the cockpit.
Into the blue, IQ divide by two.
@@frederf3227 Never heard this before, I'll have to use it.
I've crewed when we had non-helo pilots attempting to fly. It was only ever with the Colonel or the XO up front too. I just remember the ICS "left pedal, left pedal, LEFT PEDAL, my airplane".
Career 4500 hours in AF helos. IP and Evaluator at formal school in ABQ twice. I always had my hand under the collective and right hand within inch of cyclic. Always did a “demonstration” before allowing any student or DV to try…hovering, normal approach, auto, or inflight refueling….IP was at fault.
That helicopter is very top heavy and the gear is narrow. Coming from Blackhawks I found it very quirky. It's not as intuitive and it took me a long time to get used to it. I'm not sure why he would let him land it. I can see cruise flight and even manuevering but landing it is the hard part. Very poor visibility in the front seat as well.
I always thank my instructors. I was fortunate to learn to fly rotatory then fixed wing. I learned in the civilian world but all of my instructors were former military (all branches). Great video!
I love watching experts in their field cover articles written about concepts or incidents in their field for clarification. It just shows that the people writing these articles need to have a background in the field that they are writing in to ensure they aren't misinforming the public. It's why in my primary field of interest (My background is in earth science) I skip articles and just read the actual journals written by actual scientists. We need more pilots and aviation experts to get into this sort of journalism so that people can have a better understanding as to what is going on in the field of aviation.
Standards have dropped since Tommy Lee Jones's day.
I blame Nick
I reckon the reflex to "I need power" for a fixed winger is "push throttle forward" meaning extending the left arm, which results in dropping the collective in a helicopter.
I was an Army Cobra SIP with more than 2000 hours of IP/SIP time. Except for currency rides with Cobra qualified pilots, virtually every pilot I transitioned into the Cobra was new to the aircraft. Even with qualified rotary wing pilots I always guarded the controls during critical training maneuvers.
Great point re: fixed wing experience being almost a liability. Same thing goes with open circuit experienced when you go to transition to a closed-circuit rebreather (read: military-style, no bubbles). Things that would be the proper move on open circuit can kill you pretty quick on a CCR.
I had the opportunity to fly a UH1 as a first helicopter flight. I’m a fixed wing pilot and RC helicopter pilot with decent ability with the RC helicopters. I knew what to do but execution was a handful. From my opinion, the real one is much harder to fly than the RC. I was able hover, then did two pattern approaches to hover and the forward flight to an airport 30 minutes away where I got mental saturation and would have crashed without my buddy taking over. Over control was the issue that I fought.
I liked your diaper comment. We had a similiar thing happen in the Civil Air Patrol. CAP had a rather large inventory of O-1 Bird Dogs at the squadron level. Because a guy in the New Jersey Wing ground looped one, causing substantial damage to the aircraft and causing a minor injury to his passenger, the Air Force prohibited the use of any conventional aircraft and removed all the O-1s from the CAP fleet. The O-1's were a great SAR aircraft. Instead of making sure that people were proficient in tail draggers, and if not, require training ... we all had to wear diapers by losing a good asset. I hope the Army doesn't take the easy way out with this and does make a solid program for giving rides. Also, I wonder if the F-35 pilot was very current with flying in general.... especially if he was a full bird. I wonder if that might have been a flight pay flight?
I wonder if the IP not being on the controls and the multiple do-overs had anything to do with a Colonel being in the number 2 seat and a Warrant being in the number 1. It would be interesting to hear the cockpit coms druring all of this.
Mover, another good vid...But, when are you going to have a new book out? Really miss your writing!
I flew several FAM rides in the Air Force and working for the FAA as a AT controller.
How does chain of command work in a situation like that? I know there's still a lot of details we don't know about this incident. But let's say after the each attempt the warrant officer said, "Ok, that's enough." But the colonel pulls rank and says, "No, give me another chance." Can the warrant officer refuse (disobey?) without consequence? Or is the warrant officer in a rock and hard place situation?
Yes, PIC responsibility. The term "Aircraft Commander" is exactly that, they are responsible for safety of flight.
@@SVSky Yes. That makes sense. So, despite whatever is on their collar or sleeve, the one designated "commander" always "out ranks" the other person regardless.
@@frankbieser The Army places the Pilot In Command in absolute authority regardless of rank, however they also caution about "excessive professional courtesy" when a PIC is flying with a senior ranking leader. Meaning, " I know you are a General or Brigade Commander but you must follow my directives or instructions related to the operation of this aircraft explicitly." In all my flights with senior ranking leadership every one of them, regardless of rank, were professional and had no problem understanding I was in charge of the flight and aircraft. That being said, you showed the rank the respect due but also showed the lack of their flying experience the respect due as well.
If your an E4 instructor in a classroom, and you have an 07 student, the O7 is theoretically supposed to listen to the E4
@@Catch_The_Irishman I never really understood why, but a W-4 or especially a W-5 gets a pass when it involves professional courtesy toward Generals and Colonels. It's almost like the General is a muscular body-builder or professional football player and the W-5 is the skinny little Korean with a quadruple black-belt in every oriental fighting skill, who put the General in a coma once 10 years ago.
My brother in law, retired CW5 Black Hawk pilot told me from the start the 2 are Apple and oranges when it comes to Choppers and Fix Wing. When the osprey were crashing at the start, the first thing he told me was they were taking fix wing pilots who were not really trained to be chopper pilots. He said that they should have made chopper pilots fly them first. He was telling me hovering and flight in a strait line was a big difference. Too much petal left or right would end up in a crash really quickly. Petal in a chopper is taught, but you have to learn by flying them on a daily. Being that he started off in the Army Band he said it was like going from Tuba to Sax, not too many people can do it.
Mistakes were made.
Love the Firebirds clips!!!
12 years flying the Apache. Never flew with unqualed pilots, but a metric fuck ton of butter bars. Always guarded the controls when at less than 100 agl. Always thought it was b/c I was just a control freak. When guarding the controls, if an input ever felt different that what I would have done myself, my spidey sense would immediately kick in and I would be locked in 100% on what was happening. 100% of that incident is on the back seater..
Have you ever thought of a job at the NTSB?
Thanks for covering this from a pilots pov
A few years back, my son got interested in RC aircraft. The club was lucky enough to have an instructor pilot who was Navy fighter pilot from Korean was and a commercial pilot on medical retirement. During leaves he qualified for every active duty Navy plane, fighter, multi engine prop, everything except helicopters. Can you imagine he could land jets on aircraft carriers but not choppers. They must be harder than we think.
I flew a Sea King on an orientation flight and whilst eyes out the cockpit, everything seemed OK, it was only when it was pointed out that we were climbing because I had too much collective that I tunnel visioned on the instruments. Big birds need a lot of attention.
I appreciate the observation that learned habits don't necessarily translate into a different aircraft type.
I landed at U42 shortly after the crash and saw the Apache on its side in the field to the east of the runway.
Thanks!
Looking forward to seeing the official report when it gets released. Any updates in regards to the Harrison County Sheriff's OH-6?
Helo pilot transitioning to fixed wing = no problem. Going the other way is very difficult.
me as a university student doing a course that has nothing to do with my degree:
Dude these guys are 💩 in their pants, writing this accident report.You did what!!!😂😂😂😂
I've always wanted to get a chance to sit in an AH-64 sim just to see how close I could get to not wrecking it immediately based only on DCS training.
The ultimate version of "Can some idiot with no real experience fly a helicopter?".
To all the haters. My flight did not happen in a "Viper." It happened in a Fighting Falcon that had nothing to do with Lockheed. It was December 5th 1985. I agree one young SSgt from the bomb dump didn't know much about about the F-16, but what I do know, is everything I told you is gospel-truth, as I remember it. I am absolutely certain I rode in the front. No one had cell phones or Go-Pro's in 1985 so no pictures or video. I have my logbook entry he made. I'll post it in a minute. A couple of months after my incentive flight, I took my private checkride and counted that 1.3 or 1.4 in my 40 hours required. The Tampa DPE, Mr. Leslie told me that jet time in the first 40 was really odd but he counted it. Col. Kramer and I did something related to the Special Olympics parade in town but I don't remember what it was. I do not remember how the startup was conducted. The crew chief may have done it reaching over? Our call signs were "Speedy __ and Speedy __.". The jet was Red Squadron (72nd). Tail Number was 79-0424. It now belongs to Israel. I can't figure how to post a picture here. I'll try ctrl-v. Didn't work. Link to my training signoff the day prior. facebook.com/photo/?fbid=10225251355297644&set=a.1099438852900 Link to his entry in my logbook. I suspect Col. Kramer was about 50 back then so he's probably 90 now. We were not the flight lead. We were #2 in a 2-ship formation. The other jet had a prior F-4 pilot (student) who was transitioning to the F-16. His instructor was also in the back seat of his jet. They filed IFR. We did not. I didn't even know what a radar-trail departure was at that time. Here's the link to his logbook entry, all in his writing. I didn't remember it until now but he even logged 24 minutes of ACTUAL DUAL IFR in my logbook. That's 4 minutes climbing out and 20 minutes for three approaches. facebook.com/photo/?fbid=10225251596103664&set=a.1099438852900 I'm telling you guys, I'm not lying or embellishing. It was a "non-dedicated sortie" and I just filled a seat that would have been empty. We did not do an unlimited climb. When we arrived at the operating area out over the gulf, still in formation and Kramer flying, both aircraft did g-awareness maneuvers -right 180 @ 7g then left 180 @ 9g. Then the F-4 guy wen N and we went S until 20 or 40 miles apart, can't remember. We both did 1/2 Cubans and Kramer and the other jet did some radar magic to try to evade. I was given the controls and told to just fly N, str&level. He put his left hand across my shoulder and tried to point where to be looking for the enemy. He said excitedly "see him!" Before I could count to two, he zoomed by at a closure rate nearing 1000 kts. We did a few more ACM maneuvers that never put me close to the other jet. After what seemed like 1/2 hour, our lead left and went to finish their objectives somewhere else. Col. Kramer just coached me through some aerobatics, showing me aircraft reference points that I could use to try to keep my paths straight, 45, vertical, level. It was tough. I was having trouble with a short stick that hardly moved. I did my first roll and when I ended it, I banged our helmets on the canopy 4 or 5 times hunting level. He coached me on a speed-run through mach so I could earn my certificate. We headed back to Tampa and about 20 out, he took the controls for his required rear seat 6 month or annual quals. Into the thick overcast we went for a no-gyro PAR. I remember the controller telling him to check gear down/locked. I think he told me to let him know if we had green lights up front. Then the controller told him not to talk on the radio and to do 1/2 rate turns. We broke out at maybe 250 ft and he did a touch n go. The rain was very heavy but I don't remember any wind. Back up into the clouds and radar vectors for another approach, I can't remember what kind. The 3rd approach was not one of his training requirements I don't think, because he invited me lightly feel what he was doing on the controls. It was a fullstop. Nasty nasty rain. I sat in for the debrief with the guys that were in the other jet. I couldn't tell what was being talked about and they went so fast. After the other crew left, we talked for at least another hour. Kramer told me to go to the car and get my logbook. He asked me how sick I got. I told him that as we arrived back at MacDill for the three approaches, it was all I could do to hold it down. Mask off, 100% oxygen, and enviro ice fog coming out both A/C nozzles in front of me, blowing hard, fight on my face. It was an experience of my life. I'm staring right now at the resin-model General Dynamics gave me. I wrote the wing commander a nice thank you because, he made my ride happen pretty quickly. In the receiving line after my NCO Leadership School graduation, he shook my hand and said "Son, congratulations on being the John Levitow Honor Graduate, is there anything I can do for you?" I replied "Yessir, I'd like an F-16 ride." He just smiled and said loudly, "THAT'S ALL!...That's easy." Colonel Cash was a little like Ronald Reagan. I can't make you "That's BS" guys believe me. You probably won't believe I caught a military hop once from Texas to GA. The ops guy told me to get on the plane. I expected a C-130. When I asked him when my plane was lading, he pointed at the VC-140. Myself and a 3-star general were the only pax.
@@bryancobb -Your logbook entry clearly states BACKSEAT ride!
All the junk you said about flying in the front seat…was a nice fantasy!
@@justsmy5677 You are a know-it-all. Yes. You are right. Do you honestly think LtCol. Kramer would have memorialized the word "front,'" if he was doing something risky. I cannot tell you why he made the logbook entry the way he did. I can tell you I posted his writing, just as he wrote it. I cannot tell you why he put me in the front seat. I just know he certainly did. While you are picking things apart, my training sheet doesn't show a "parachute drag" and how to "dump fuel" in an emergency and where, but those things also happened too. I must admit, if some stranger told me all this, and conveniently didn't have pictures, at least before and after the ride, I'd not believe them. I would keep the "BS" thoughts to myself but tag the guy as a liar in my mind. You just go on believing it didn't happen, and I'll continue knowing it did. No harm done. One of us was there almost four decades ago, one wasn't. If some stranger told me he parked his FAA Certificated Helicopter under his carport with his wife's car, and flew it to work on clear days, and on many Saturdays rolled it out and flew his 3 y/o daughter to McDonalds...I'd call BS on that too, but facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10219964748535779&set=pb.1434527041.-2207520000&type=3
@@bryancobb - Sorry, but it is just NOT believable.
First you say “the documentation is in my logbook”, then you say “oh, the logbook documentation (by an FAA certificated CFI) was intentionally written wrong (wink wink).
I flew F-4s is a squadron that was converting to F-16s. The first F-16 we received was a two seat D model. Every F-4 pilot who wanted a ride in the Viper got a ride.
Fully qualified F-4 pilots had to fly in the BACK seat with the F-16 IP in the front seat.
There is no way a non rated ammo troop could fly in the front seat and a fully qualified/current USAF F-4 pilot was not allowed to fly in the front seat.
It just did not happen! If something like that was legal and approved by the Air Force, there would be dozens of guys who would have done it. There would be hundreds of USAF pilots who would have done it.
You can Bullsh!t your average Joe on the street or in a bar. But you can not Bullsh!t guys who flew or maintained fighter jets.
You should stick to stories about how you can bench 475 pounds or you have a 10 inch weenie! Those stories would be more believable.
I’m through wasting time interfacing with a Bullshitter living in a fantasy World.
@@justsmy5677 You know. I believe you now.
I wonder if the report delved into the rank discrepancy and how that might have played into poor CRM.
Great discussion--I'm a long-time CFII. WO should have never taken his hands off the controls, at least anywhere near the ground. Bad experience for all involved, and they broke a perfectly good aircraft. That's never a good thing.
I've noticed that even after you were qualified, Lester would guard the controls too from time to time. That's a big mystery to me also.
What torques me off about the news coverage is that they don't link the actual report that they got through a FOIA request (which has gone through the military's Public Affairs wickets and approved for public release, they could wallpaper their house with it if they wanted to). Instead, you have to read some reporter's jacked-up 5th-grade interpretation of it.
I guess the reporter felt he had to "dumb it down" for the average reader. A lot gets lost in the translation. It happens on all accidents reported by non-aviators. It's frustrating.
@@johnmclean6498
Most people who read this stuff know something about it and the reporter doesn't realize that he/she is the dumba$$ rock of the group. In a news agency, the "military expert", "foreign-policy expert", and any other "expert" is the person who hired on when that desk was vacant.
CNN actually had a story up on their TV channel about the space shuttle Columbia accident with the banner headline "shuttle was travelling 18 times the speed of light". Not exactly the cream of the crop in that profession.
@@johnmclean6498 There is a song from I think 1982 which goes, "Bubbleheaded bleach blonde comes on a five, tells you about the plane crash with a gleam in her eye. I coulda been an actor but I wound up here, I just have to look good, don't have to be clear."
And then there's the thing where depending on which report and how recent, the average adult reading level in the USA is about 7th grade level. Again varying with which report on which date, the average attention span of US adults, not toddlers, adults, is between 8 to 12 seconds.
@@scottfw7169 The song gets it in one!
@@scottfw7169
That's something the news media and government embellish as an excuse to run your life. "Sorry, gotta run your life for you because you're too stupid to do it." Yes, there's that 6-8% that will believe anything but it's not as bad as you think.
read where flying the Apache is extremely difficult. Eyes moving in different directions simultainously, etc.
Love to see old Steve Ford's trim indicator (piece of antenna and red yarn) still in place on the 58! Good folks at HCSD Aviation!
I love the Firebirds reference LMFAO such a underrated movie that you should do a mover ruins movie segment on
I actually did with Casmo.
Right on !
Short answer, no!
I had a student complain that I was too on the controls with him when he was first learning to fly. The Government flight inspector was there and he said that for a students first experiences learning helicopters I should be all over the controls to avoid just this scenario. I would use my knees and thumb and index finger to give them a block to work in where they could only move the controls so far. Never had a crash and all my students passed their flight tests. High time instructors sit there with their hands on their laps while students do autos. It only takes one mistake and you can never fix it fast enough when you are a few feet off the ground.
My brother was a instructor in gliders, and had funny stories about transitioning rotorheads and exciting bad habits that showed up on short final.
Having done both would you say the helicoptor is harder? More cordination required? We had both at our base.Blackhawks/C130s. Each of them said they were harder.
Rotary is harder. Hovering alone requires fine motor control over all three axes at once while simultaneously understanding how each control input affects the others so that the pilot can also input the counter movements. that alone makes it more challenging to fly.
@@dafox0427 I have heard multiple times its like balancing on the head of a pin. We had Warrant Officers who were rockstars in the hueys later blackhawks. They made it look easy.
@@dave2873 It's certainly a skill to master. It takes a while. But, once you get it and stop overcontrolling, it just comes together.
Too many uninformed comments here. Much talk about how the qualified pilot did not monitor closely enough. I fly both fixed and rotary and they are completely different: fixed wings are naturally stable and helicopters are dynamically unstable; they try to go lateral *at all times*. You have to simultaneously manage cyclic and stick which interact. It's like somebody qualified to ride a horse thinking he can transition to a bicycle. For more information, follow CWLemoine's actual experience in learning rotor skills.
The Utah Guard has a hell of a time not bending up aircraft lately, lol.
Seen this with AF Pavehawks. The "old man" would want to fly and the pilot would be too timid to correct the Col/General. All those CRM things we do were set aside because of who the VIP pilot is. I can't tell you how many close calls I had with an unqualified O-5/6/7 on the controls that just wanted some stick time.
Yes, exactly. And in my experience, it's usually in the mind of the junior.
My first fleet assignment was stashed as training officer in a Headquarters and Maintenance Squadron flying OA-4Ms, and we were tasked with currency flying for the Wing brass. They were always short of night time and bombing currency, so night bombing was a favorite (45 degree night dives into the ridiculously small working area over Camp Pendleton). After about the third time of nearly spoiling my flight suit, I started briefing the colonel du jour: "in the back seat there is a 195 pound altimeter override; get one knot fast, one degree steep or one foot low, and this aircraft will recover." Usually got a chuckle, Wing G-3 told me: "that's right Lieutenant; don't you let me kill us."
Retired Army aviator here. The AH-64 is an easy aircraft to fly, as helicopters go. I spent more hours in an OH-58 than an Apache, and the Apache was much easier to fly. It is stable in a hover, its controls are responsive without being too sensitive or twitchy, and it has enough power to get you out of a bad situation. Most Apache accidents happen during mission training, at night, in a hover, in a confined area, in a multi-ship flight, or going inadvertent IMC. To go out on a familiarization flight in one and crash it takes some real ham-handedness. Sounds like the SIP should have his ass kicked.
Fascinating
Thanks for a nice explanation. Airplane pilots in helicopters is always interesting. I do both and when a student has seized wing experience i guard the controls more closely. The one that has gotten me is teaching IFR go arounds, in transition training. Airplane pilots will nose up and thats not helpful. Once they are out of airspeed they are also often out of ideas. I just got checked out on tailwheel, its humbling while learning, great when it clicks. Sometimes other experience is helpful, but not always. Be safe out there and always be ready to guard those controls.
I always enjoy when fixed wing guys forget to stop flaring when their forward motion is arrested when approaching to a hover.
Helo approach vs airplane approach: We come to a complete stop before we touch down 😉. And yes, during the last phase of the approach, >300fpm decent +
I can't believe I just found that it was "Hasard" Lee the F35 Pilot. Such a great professional.
I have done fam flights in the UH-1H and the UH-60L. The person on the ride was not ever authorized to be at a flight station. Obviously, in the Apache, the person on the ride has to be at a flight station. I have been retired a long time so maybe things have changed, but we were never authorized to allow a person on a fam ride to take the controls regardless of their rank or qualifications in other aircraft.
Prior to becoming a pilot, I was a crew chief and went on maintenance test flights with the test pilot. I would fly in the left seat and the pilots almost always let me fly for a bit. Some of the guys got a chance to try to hover. It was not authorized and would be a serious career impediment if you had an accident while allowing a crew chief to fly.
I doubt this Colonel should have ever been on the controls .You know what it's like. Hovering is completely different than flying an airplane. I'm also fix wing rated so I can also make that comparison. No fighter pilot would be able to hover a Huey and make a takeoff without a few hours of flight training. Even with the SAS system in the Blackhawk, it would be tough. Translational lift effects alone would be baffling to an airplane pilot.
Airplanes want to fly. Helicopters want to kill you. It's a very different environment.