Are There Too Many Game Systems?
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 ส.ค. 2024
- Hello everyone! In this video I talk about how there are tons of new, exciting game systems coming out in the near future, and what this could mean for the community as a whole. But seriously, it feels like everyone is making their own game system nowadays...
Timestamps:
00:00 Intro
02:41 Woah, New Rules!
04:34 New Game Systems = New Players
05:39 Where'd Everyone Go?
07:42 Sooooo Much New Stuff...
08:51 Too Many Game Systems, Not Enough $
10:16 Final Thoughts & Outroooooo
#dungeonsanddragons #dnd #ttrpg #pathfinder #dc20 - บันเทิง
I don't think there are too many systems, but I do think there are getting to be too many D&Ds.
Yeah, for me the differences between most d20 systems are not significant enough for me to choose. BRP, OpenD6 [aka WEG D6] and recently, Ezd6 are my absolute favourites. Each run very differently. Trying, and having different systems is important, as different mechanics can really affect tone of play.
It's like seeing eddie murphy play all characters in one of his movies.
DND killer is not the right way to market it, but I am all for more RPG systems! I love seeing how others define mechanics
Also I am getting all of those and still play PF2E and 5E
I love it! 😁
tbf, I hardly ever hear the devs of these systems themselves advertise them in such a way. Usually it's other people who are reporting on their development who call them that.
Yea. The creator of DC20 directly says that he isnt trying to compete with dnd or be a 'dnd killer'
@@natanoj16 Yeah, but the game is still is competing with D&D anyway. DC20 is a D&D hack/clone or something between D&D and Pathfinder (as some people like to describe it), which places it invariably as a D&D/Pathfinder competitor, intentionally or not.
The thing is that when a group attempts a different system is probable that they aren't a ride or die group with a system and are willing to play different things as oneshots or as a rotation when the campaigns ends. Also, even if the books are expensive, most RPGs, to not say all, have a free introductory version and a group can buy the books after trying the free rules.
It also may be the TTRPG culture but RPGs are less expensive than videogames, and for groups to play the new thing you need to get all you friends to buy the new game, not just the "GM"
Good points!
Another comment stated this but I wanna agree with them: I feel like a lot of new systems are undervaluing the impact of a setting. One thing a lot of people like with Pathfinder is the world of Golarion, and out of all the smaller TTRPGs I've tried, played, etc. in the past couple of years, while the rules got me interested, what actually prompted me to play them with my group was the setting and lore behind the worlds around them. I particularly like the lore behind Massiff Press's games, Lancer and ICON (WIP). DND has a lot of established lore, but a lot of games use their own worlds to the point of that feeling like it's the norm. While you can do this with every system, in 5e isn't held back at all by this because of its size and present position as top dog.
DC20 is interesting and enticing if I'm looking for something to convert a 5e game to, but because I have any 5e games currently and don't plan to run any, I don't feel as strong motivation to try it.
I gotta agree. Having some pre-established lore is a great way to start a campaign from, and a widely integrated system also helps to support other settings.
But while I'm not planning to switch to one of these big systems, I'm curious to see what kind of Sci-Fi adaptations make their way into them. Because I think that might really set the community alight with new ideas and players. I mean come on, who doesn't like the idea of lightsabers and laser blasters?!
I personally like to homebrew worlds so I’m more focused on what the mechanics offer me, but having said that I know that DC20 has a full world and lore in development, so keep an eye out for it. It you can catch some of the live chats Dungeon Coach has there’s opportunities to get some lore dumps sometimes there!
It's going to be Pathfinder for Savage Worlds or DC20 for me for my next campaign when I'm done with my current DnD 5e campaign
pf2 and swade are both great systems. TBD on DC20.
I'm really happy with PF2E and want to run more official adventures in that system, and the first party support for Foundry is great, so I think I'm sticking with Pathfinder
for running fantasy combat oriented games.
I don't want a DnD killer because for me it's killed, but I would love to see the next Blades in the Dark, IE the next indie rpg that tries to do something completely different in system goals, setting, and overall philosophy and catches on enough to generated a slew of games using the same system.
I think the tricky situation I see is that every DM I have played with has been a relatively casual Forgotten Realms official module DM that makes a few tweaks, but otherwise isn't interested in worldbuilding. These types of DMs seem to be 80% of what I see going around, at least in my area. They lean heavily on the general familiarity with FR from previous modules, BG3, DnD movie etc. so that the players can essentially fill in the gaps of their own setting knowledge.
As such, the chances of me getting to actually enjoy one of these systems as a player, outside of maybe a one-shot here or there, is pretty slim.
As a DM on the other hand, I already run an entirely homebrew setting/campaign, which I could pretty easily adapt to any of these new systems. However ultimately I need a pretty good pitch for the upside of these systems as a DM to want to invest the time, money and energy into switching my group over. All the content I've seen for these systems so far has sold me on the fun as a player, but DM centric stuff like monster diversity, existence of digital tools, and useful material for creating non-combat challenges, is what I need to see.
DC20 is really looking promising so far. It takes some of the better parts of PF2E and transplants them thoughtfully to make something halfway between 5e and PF2e.
The culture around PF2e is very entrenched and anti-homebrew so my party bounced off of it, but we see good promise with this one and the culture is inheriting 5e's hacky/tinkery spirit
I haven't gotten the chance to truly try out DC20 with my group yet, but I've heard and seen a lot of great things about it and if it sticks the landing for being a game system between PF2e and D&D, then I'll definitely have to run a campaign using it. 😁
Which is really a shame because PF2e is built to allow Homebrew as long as you know the rules, its arguably easier to homebrew for in my experience. Frankly I have found the biggest issue with PF2e is the community. Places like Reddit seem to be full of problems and people complaining and it does take some of the enjoyment out of the system.
If i may ask: What did you want to homebrew that pf2e didn't allow you to?
How is PF2e anti-homebrew?
I have never had that experience in the years i have played it and I am an avid Homebrewer who is active on the community
I did GM a campaign that shifted through 5 different systems (Tales from the Loop, Call of Cthulhu (Invictus), Eclipse Phase, Legend of the Five Rings, and Hunter the Reckoning) through interconnected one shots. It was fun, but I don't recommend it as a first time tasting of systems. Even with running them pretty rules light it was exhausting and hampering.
I will say though about the current glut in the market of systems is that I am very interested it what it will look like in about 10 or 20 years, after the market boom. A lot of the longer running ones were already reaching a point of refining, rather than dramatic experimentation. But now they get to see a huge range of radically diverse approaches. So future editions will have all those ideas available to rework and refine into theirs.
Also, the wide market in ttrpgs at current allows for the success of games that are absolutely not designed to be your core games. Games like Dialect, Icarus, and Alice is Missing are amazing experiences, but you're not going to be playing them week after week after week and you probably wouldn't buy them unless you'd already enjoyed other ttrpgs first.
I'm so glad we're getting more stuff like this. People are silly if they are like "NO... D&D and Pathfinder ONLY"
I think many players would've wanted to have seen 2024 D&D innovate more. So there's a market for that fantasy RPG experience that tries new things. I'm most excited about DC20 and MCDM. I'm not planning to update to the 5e revision at all. It's just not exciting enough over what I've already got.
ngl as someone who has played 5e for 10 years, I really wanted a full blown new edition, 5e for what it was was good, but it really needed a next edition for innovation.
I'm on the Tales of the Valiant plan. It addresses a lot of things about 5e that needed improvement while staying close enough to traditional D&D 5E that you can run D&D and ToV material together with VERY minimal adjustments.
Yes, I think ToV is a great option. Backwards compatibility with 5e and a great company, Kobold Press.
A lot of people lament that the erosion of the DnD monopoly will make it more difficult to find groups, but for me the opposite is the case. I am a ttrpg player who dislikes DnD. Finding a group that doesn't play DnD is a bloody nightmare. And it's no use for me to join a DnD group, since I don't enjoy that game. Before the DnD monopoly it was much easier to find people willing to play different systems and I have high hopes, that now that the community as a whole is much bigger, it will be even easier then before to find a fitting group once DnD isn't synonymous with ttrpg anymore.
Dude same. I ran a D&D game for a year and it was fun but I will never do it again. I did not enjoy D&D as a gm and, while I'm trying pathfinder as a player, I'm finding it has very similar issues that made D&D so aggravating for me.
I tend to feel very boxed in with D&D, both in mechanics and world.
For instance, I had my own little magic system for my world that I had to shove aside just to make room for D&D's colossal list of spells and I was a new gm who didn't know how to approach something like that, especially because I didn't want my players to feel like the experience they expected was being stolen from them.
That wasn't the biggest issue though. It was more that D&D felt like it didn't leave me or my players much room to play with things. The huge lore dumps felt very restrictive, kind of like the feeling of tying alignment to class/race.
I'm currently working on my own system for my own world and have experimented with a few other systems which I enjoy way more. Thankfully my group is fairly up for anything, but it's hard to find people interested in systems outside D&D
@@theConcernedWyvern oh yes, it seems a bit paradoxical at first how a system that offers rules for so many situations can be restrictive, but on a second glance I think it's pretty obvious: sure you can go anywhere, but the path is already laid out for you and if you want to take an extra turn or cut a corner, well, good luck coming up with homebrew rules, that won't break the game five sessions down the road. And I know that a lot of people homebrew settings successfully for D&D, but there are just some things that fundamentally box you in and determine how your world is going to work. Classes and magic, being the two that bother me the most. Over the years I have learned, that I just don't like systems with predefined classes and spell lists. On top of that I don't like the chaotic nature of the 1 d20 mechanic. Those three things are just fundamentally incompatible with the settings and tone I like. But they are at the core of D&D, if you house rule them out of the system everything falls apart.
Sadly my group fell apart at the beginning of this year and I haven't found the energy to rebuild, yet. I really dread having to deal with all those people again who don't really listen, when I explain how we (me and my best friend) like to play and two weeks later they make a surprised Pikachu face, when they realize that we really don't play anything close to D&D.
The ONLY TTRPG release that actually shook things up in terms of what I like was pathfinder 2e. I got bored of first edition and 2nd edition fixed all my problems with fantasy ttrpgs when it came out. I'm probably going to try these other games but just from reading the alphas without playing I still think pathfinder is the best fantasy ttrpg on the market.
Yeah Pathfinder is super dynamic and has so many awesome mechanics that's for sure. I'm curious to see how another fairly rules dense system like MCDM will compare once it's officially released.
As someone who started playing ttrpgs in 1984, I find it super weird that people play only D&D. Without resorting to grognard I-did-it-THIS-way chest thumping, there have always been lots of games. D&D was top of the pile as most famous and most people’s gateway, but it seems a recent phenomenon that people get into gaming and then only play one game. I have always, and was around others who also, played a multitude of games. I mean, no one says, I really like band x, and listen to nothing else. Even Rush super fans and Dead-heads listen to other music.
Listening to bands does not require organizing 4+ people participating on the same platform concurrently. A lot of the growth in ttrpgs has come from making it more accessible-ie, reaching people with greater accessibility problems, such as geographically isolated/low population areas, unusual schedules, low free time, etc. Non-D&D systems _have_ gotten substantially bigger in absolute numbers; D&D has increased far _more_ than its competitors, though. A lot of people play only D&D because (among other reasons), for most, it is far easier to get into. Ttrpgs are tiny by entertainment standards.
@nevisysbryd7450 So I guess you've never coordinated buying concert tickets with a group of friends. I kid, I kid.
I don't disagree with anything you said. I agree that many people face a variety of challenges being able to game. I agree that being widespread innately contributes to D&D's popularity. Well, maybe I disagree with the implication that D&D is the most accessible game, but maybe that's my assumptions about what accessible means; there are certainly other games that are more approachable from the standpoint of disabilities, beginner friendly rules, accommodating differing or solo player counts, etc. But I don't think there are any that have as much widespread infrastructure, which makes the game accessible in the face of many challenges.
My point wasn't about entry into the hobby, but about how the Internet seems to default to depicting D&D as something you move away from and on to something else. I would be surprised if people, once in the hobby, would steadfastly say, "Oh I see there are other games. Screw those, I've planted my flag, I'll only ever play D&D." I'm sure those people exist, and more power to them, but I think most people who've only played D&D do so due to exposure or, like you said, access. And I don't know that that happens a lot.
But Internet dialogue about D&D frames it as if D&D keeps people away from other games, and wonders if a new game will lure people away from D&D to a new, this-is-my-only-game system. Could something else supercede D&D in popularity? Sure! It's happened before with 4e vs Pathfinder, and it's the case in Japan with D&D compared to Call of Cthulhu (and probably other markets too) now.
I apologize, but this is a long-winded way of saying that I don't get why Internet discourse frames new d20 fantasy games as needing to dethrone D&D.
Forget DND killer thing. Your question are there too many TTRPGs? No. I remember before DND was dominant. It was great. So many unique and fun systems. DND with the ogl solidified everything into mostly one system, it was boring.
There is now a game system or there for everybody. For me, that system is DC20!
My group and I switched to PF2e during the OGL crisis and haven't looked back. A lot of the new systems look really cool and I would love to try them or even just read through them and be inspired by the different rules, but, like you said, the cost really adds up. I'd still rather have too many systems than too little, personally.
However, I do like what I've seen from the DC20 mechanics, and will probably end up incorporating some of them into my games. Like the 4-action economy, for instance.
A thing I am going to try our in my PF2e campaign is fusing the action system from dc20.
Basically allowing the players to use their actions as reactions and resetting actions right after the player's turn end.
New stuff is/can be good. However, as somebody who has been in the hobby for a long time (and played many different systems), there have been (and are) many great games available besides D&D for years. Most people just weren't willing to look past the big brand name. Try something different people, you might just find something that works better for you. It might even be a game that existed before you started playing the "Coca-cola of RPG's".
As a gamer from the early 80s (Yes a Gen Xer here). This whole notion of the D&D killer and there are so many new RPGs hitting the market "like never before". I can say I've already experienced this. The difference is the internet and social media. So, to younger generation gamers it seems like it maybe be a lot. But this has already happened and just another point of history repeating itself with a newer generation. D&D fell with the fall of TSR. Then Wizards picked it back up, breathed new life into the game during 3/3.5. Once Wizards was bought by Hasbro and corporate politics took over, the same thing is repeating. Now a bunch of new companies are striking out for the top spot all over again.
IMO, there will be a top contender, with several ranking fantasy RPGs. D&D will fall for some time, Hasbro will probably sell it just like TSR was sold. A new purchaser will come along, buy it and breath new friendly life into the system. Then rinse an repeat. It may take a decade or two just like going from AD&D to 3.5 then from there to its current state. I say have fun, stick to a system or few that works for your group. It's all about having fun and making the best of what you enjoy. There is no perfect system and never will be. All games get homebrewed to adapt to a group's playstyle.
this
This💯
100% agree, genx played the shit out so many RPG’s and still do. Most aren’t one system groups from what I can tell.
@@ElwoodShort I still have so many of those games. I even have my original Star Frontiers and Basic D&D books from back then. They don't look great, but I still have them. LOL!
@@marcusrouls7472 Yep, this GenXer also still has my first basic book, star frontiers, Gamma World, Champions, FASA Doctor Who, and a few bits of others!
My tastes and habits with ttrpgs have always been eclectic. As long as the system allows for the promise of the rpg to be fulfilled, then I'm good. For a fantasy rpg, my main go to is always Earthdawn. The world is so in depth and immersive, and the mechanics reflect the wotld in which they exist. I won't be shifting to any of these systems as they all feel very generic, in that the systems perform the mechanical functions of the game, but don't truly represent the theme of the game. (wow, it feels weird writing ttrpg because to my mind rpg is always a table top one first)
this guy is naturally on 1.25 speed
It all reminds me of what happened during AD&D 2nd edition towards the end of its life cycle when all these other publishers like White Wolf started blowing up because of setting bloat and questionable business decisions by TSR. I believe the competition started to make a dent in D&D's market share, but without expanding the actual market overall. This resulted in WoTC buying out D&D and creating 3rd edition with the accompanying OGL that brought them great success through the gaining back of market share and introducing the hobby to a new generation of gamers. I could see this ending up much the same. Hasbro needs D&D to do well, and I expect them to do what they need to do to keep it on top. The proliferation of other systems will be a flash in the pan, but probably do well enough to create their own small niche allowing them to hang around in a small way for awhile. There is no D&D killer though, and I doubt any of the new ttrpg's coming around will even be able to overtake Paizo. Good video. I appreciate your take.
I've been following DC20 since Alan announced it roughly last February. I chose it over other options because it addresses many issues I had with 5e. The action system, spell slots, and multiclassing options, to name a few. DC20 is turning out to be a fantastic system and Alan is a brilliant creator. He has never claimed that it would be a D&D Killer, though many in our community believe it could be a top contender in the space. Thanks for the coverage! Slainte!
Excellently stated my friend.
I hope there will be conversion kit guides from dnd adventures to dc20 and roll20 foundry support
@@mikfhan as part of the team I can tell you that is a goal of ours. Alan recently stated in a live stream that Roll20 support as well as other VTTs is actually insanely expensive (like upwards of 2 million) so we aren't sure how exactly to achieve that but the conversion kits are definitely coming.
Wait, fanboy, are you Irish?☘️
@@GlenFinney 1/2...ish. Roughly Irish, Scotch, and Welsh, with a pinch of Mexican. I really should do a DNA test. Lol!
All in DC20, it's the best transition from D&D it seems :) But strictly better
6:51 In general, learning a new RPG system is not that hard, but most people think it will be because they’ve only played D&D which is definitely a lot of work to learn.
Not to mention so many have heard dnd 5e being touted as a super easy system to learn. So they also think that any new system must be at least as hard to learn as the supposedly super easy 5e
The thing a lot of players don’t fully realize is that learning your first TTRPG is usually the hardest. Once you have that down it gets easier and easier to learn more systems at least enough to play. Not too much more effort to learn how to GM more games too (though I do sometimes slip in which terms I use)!
@@GlenFinney That’s another good point! Even a more difficult system could be easier to learn than a more easy system that was your first.
@@crallsfickle2994 true. 5e isn’t too bad as a popular entry level it’s reasonably easy for a player to learn the basics but then they have to do a bit of a deeper dive to master builds (the playing is fairly straightforward). Lighter rpgs might be better especially for younger children/tweens but most will start with 5e I suspect.
Awesome and interesting opinions. 🙂👍🏻 Thank you for sharing. 🙂
yeah, market saturation is going to be a problem
at least the new systems are making the smart decision of being released quite after OneDnD because no matter what that's going to take all the oxygen on the room for a few months
that said I think that MCDM, DC20 and Daggerheart each have a good chance to stick well around and if they can defeat the 2 year curse then things are likely going to be great imho, the weakest of the Trio is DC20 no doubt, not only it lacks backing like the other two it also lacks finesse and presentation, mechanically it's amazing but generic stuff doesn't win hearts so well
pathfinder 2e is already well stabilished but it's pretty niche - tatical, combat as a war, game first - so while it'll certainly grow I don't think it's competing for the same place as the new ones, maybe MCDM
Well said! Yeah the two years after their release will be the biggest determining factors for sure. I feel like Daggerheart has a big chance of passing that threshold, but I'm curious to see how the others do. 🤔
Well, there's kinda always been a ton of different fantasy systems available, most people just don't know about them. Savage Worlds, Forbidden Lands, Gurps, Hackmaster, Dungeon World, etc., etc., etc. The key thing that's changed is the concentration of players, we may see a bit more difficulty finding groups to play with when everyone's spread out across systems but at the same time the hobby as a whole is also much larger now than it used to be. I think this influx of big new systems will ultimately be healthy for the hobby but i kinda doubt any of these will ever topple DnD or PF2. We'll just see a slightly more even playing field between systems. Some of these may not survive. I don't think Tales of the Valiant will ever truly find it's footing for example, there's just not enough in there to distinguish itself from it's origin. The other ones a bit more up in the air but at worst i think they'll get a passionate niche following.
Dc20 is definitely where it's at! Would love to see more content on the system, jump on the train now man. It's headed for the moon
Doesn't really matter. If your group isn't into it then you're not playing anything different.
It's kind of common occurence in any business. Everyone wants to have that slice of a pie, be succesful and earn nice amount of money. In my opinion tho, we're bit overflooded with new systems that market themself as "D&D killers" (same mistake as mmorpg calling themselves WoW killers). WotC drama already cooled down and people either stayed with DnD or moved elsewhere so in my opinion it might end up with fanbase of content creators using the system and support it for a while or just support kickstarter and nothing else then just staying with what they know. Could I be wrong? For sure
Too many?
Are there too many songs ? Too many movies?
Maybe.
But there definitely aren’t too many good songs, good movies and good games.
So keep making them!
Here is a tip, pirate everything, then just go back and pay for the best fit
I know TTRPG creator that does just that!
You don't even need to do that. Most have quickstarts.
@@MagiofAsura I have a problem with the way most quickstarts are written, they often don't have the necessary resources required for the DM to know how to run it. So all you have is a useless PDF telling players how to play, but no game with which to actually try it out in real life to see if it actually works.
Paizo makes most of their rules stuff free!
I'm a DM who really wants to try out DC20, but when I put it out there for my players, they told me they really didn't want to have to learn a whole new system.
I'll consider still running5e but honestly....depending on when it fully comes out and it's reception, I may just force the change with my group.
One shot with pregen DC20 characters and a cheat sheet for the rules. No commitment from your players just a fun change of pace. See how that goes. If they love it you have another system in your toolkit. If they don’t then very little wasted in time and effort, and you can go back to the familiar. You can try this of course with other systems too, especially good if you want to mix it up sometime in terms of genre.
We currently play PF2e, and are likely to continue because when your GM has limited time, adventure paths really help speed up prep. But I backed DC20 because I like the ideas and want to see where they end up with them. And I want a community that is not all based on one game. I want to be able to play different systems when I'm in the mood for a change.
Yea for those with a lot of adulting responsibilities, a play out of the box module, adventure path, or campaign can be a life saver. Hey, maybe when the gamer generation retires we’ll see an explosion of homebrewed worlds!
@@GlenFinney Actually, one of our forever GM's is retired, but he runs multiple games. Another is retired and makes his own stuff.
@@philopharynx7910 ah the forerunners! Here comes the wave of retired creativity!
@@GlenFinney Didn't the Forerunners die in a war with the Progenitors? Which led the way for the Ancient Ones, until the First Empire wiped them out. Before the Forerunners were the Ancestors and the Originals. (And now I'm having flashbacks of the campaign that actually used this many old civilizations.)
All of these new system are great, but unfortunately, no matter how good the mechanics and gameplay is, if you can't find enough people willing to play consistently (vs a one shot), the game will not gain the momentum it needs to continuously attract new players. Also, it will need to publish new content (such as adventures/modules) to keep people engaged, because not everyone has the time to create their own worlds. But of course this is a chicken or the egg situation - without a sufficient player base, the company can't afford to publish new content.
PF is the only existing game that has a chance to ever overtake D&D one day. But it will have to shake off it's "crunchy" reputation first, and become more accessible.
Other players are the biggest barrier to entry. The total ttrpg playerbase is actually really small for the number of players generally desired for a game.
Pathfinder's design will likely never enable it to perform at the level D&D does. The level of mechanical complexity and crunch combined with the rigidity of some of the structure narrows its appeal to far too small a proportion of players to achieve that.
Honestly, this is not the first time we seen something like this.
While in the 70s, people either played D&D and Runequest but that changed in the 80s. Suddenly games like Call of Cthulhu, Warhammer fantasy roleplaying game, ARS Magica, R.I.F.T.S and a whole bunch of other more or less successful games released. Call of Cthulhu is the one still very popular to this day.
We also had a bunch of new games changing the market in the early 90s, Shadowrun, Vampire and Cybepunk are the 3 big ones still around from that era.
We have seen other bursts of new games in a short time but many of them didn't stay around for long. Yeah, for each successful game there are a bunch of games that never became a hit but that is life. Pathfinder might be the only game that actually beat D&D for a while even though I think that if you include White Wolf's entire World of darkness as one system it probably was ahead of D&D for a couple of years in the mid 90s too.
How did we deal with all systems back then? It was pretty common that we didn't have a single life time DM back then so we usually ran a couple of campaigns simultaneously and we also ran some one shots for games that fit that format better (Call of Cthulhu and Delta Green are both excellent systems for one shots, games like D&D works best in a campaign).
So I don't see this as a problem, competition is healthy and usually leads to innovation. After a few years, a couple of the games will come up on top.
And while few systems have more content you can buy for it then 5th ed D&D, some actually do. Call of Cthulhu 7th ed have an insane amount of content, both first and third party. Pathfinder also have plenty. Even games like Shadowrun and Cyberpunk have a lot of things to choose from. Other systems have very little extra content, but that isn't always a bad thing for anyone making their own campaigns. Being forced to buy a huge number of sourcebooks is both expensive and reading them takes up time so anyone who enjoy creating their own campaigns don't really need that.
It is rather impossible to say which of the new systems that will do well and which wont yet since social media have changed things since the 90s but some systems tend to work best. However, the right DM can make any system really fun to play.
In the long run, having D&D in top followed by far away buy Pathfinder and CoC is not really the best for us gamers. Hasbro have become lazy, downsized their D&D team and made some weird decisions lately so some healthy competition is good.
It is a bit odd that these things tend to happen in burst though. Vampire, Shadowrun and Cyberpunk all released in a very short time span for instance. It might have been because there was a need for more Gothic horror and that the cyberpunk genre didn't really have any game, it might have been related to one of TSR's crisis or just have been a coincident but periods we get nothing for years and then we suddenly get a whole bunch of new games.
Pathfinder never outsold D&D, actually. 4e outsold Pf1e by entire scales. 4e had much higher development costs and expectations, however, and did not meet the company's arguably unrealistic demands, whereas Pf1e had a very enthusiastic and _loud_ playerbase and marketing strategy.
I mean d and d killer is just a click bait that actually kinda works
And their are hundreds of systems out their besides d and d and pathfinder
You have osr
Shadow dark
Knave
Vasen
Iron sword
Runequest
Crown and skull
Into the mist
Legends in the mist
And the list goes on
I do think dc20 has a place in the ttrpg world its pretty obvius that its inspired by 5e and pathfinder but also other things dc20 has a free rules set at the kickstarter worth looking into i did i played it and loved it for a lot of litle things rolls matter and action point being part of it but in all honesty its all the systems within the system that exist and how they work together
I hope that evryone finds the game for them and their game their is a lot out their even for free have fun everyone 🎉🎉🎉
Legend In The Mist is the most I'm excited for, especially as City of Mist is my main system I run. I'm hoping to replace DND with DC20 as well though.
I... had already been working on a dnd hack for a while, and the ogl scandal pushed me to swap over to fully implementing it as its own system. And I am... for free.
People need choice. For me, the differences between most d20 systems are not significant enough for me to choose one. BRP [Runequest, Call of Cthulhu etc.], OpenD6 [aka WEG D6] and recently, Ezd6 are my absolute favourites. Each run very differently. Trying, and having different systems is important, as different mechanics can really affect tone of play. Modiphius’ 2d20 system is also great, and I would never consider running the DUNE setting with any other system [they 100% nailed that game].
I’m right there with you except on the last part, as I consider it an inferior version of the #Cortex version of #Smallville mechanically, which is available for free on Josh Roby’s website.
I already switched to pathfinder 2e a year ago, best decision ever. If the ogl never happened, I would have probably quit dnd anyway, since when the ogl hit; i realised all the shortcomings of dnd and my frustrations as GM after running an official dnd adventure (spelljammer)
Yeah spelljammer was...lackluster. ☹️ I was really excited for it as well! It was so heartbreaking to see it release with so many shortcomings. 😭
I think it’s a good thing on balance. With the problem of it being difficult to find a group playing the game you want to play when there are so many games becoming popular, I think that could be a blessing in disguise. People might be forced to start viewing themselves as “roleplaying gamers” as opposed to “D&D players” or “Pathfinder players”. Forced to be more open-minded about what systems they play, in other words. I agree that can be daunting because every game works differently - but that might also incentivise future games to prioritise designing sleek, tight systems that are easy to learn, and I think that would be good too.
I have to say I’m disappointed in most of these recent D&D-adjacent games based on what I’ve seen of them, but that’s really just a matter of taste. Most of them seem keen to address “problems” with D&D that I don’t think are problems, and keep some of the things I personally dislike about D&D.
I am planning on switching to dc20 for my next campaign, as a midpoint between slightly antiquated DnD and intimidating pathfinder I think it has a strong case for existing, at least for me and my group.
I will be moving more towards DC20 once it gets closer to release, assuming that it's continuing to develop a very interesting system (there's a lot of sections of the system where I've heard very little or simple "concepts").
Do I think its a DnD killer? Pfft. No. But I don't think it's being marketed as such; a content creator gave a booming endorsement and used the word "evolution"... and I can actually agree with that.
As for the other systems, Daggerheart (to me) seems to be HEAVILY narrative and may be perfect for CR community; who, from what I have seen, tend to eat/sleep/breath CR content and so it will find success no matter what. MCDM... had my interest, until I seen the social system broken down and I had weird visions of "mechanical RP that relies on math for success".. nah, I'm going to have to pass on that. But others may like that, and its all good.
I think more options are great, and their timing is just really a reflection of WotC truly fumbling time and time again in a very short period of time. SO, if these systems take away market share from WotC... great! One or two of them may have the momentum to truly take off and be a main stay in the future... probably won't be able to tell until about 5 years or so after launch.
I don't think there are too many games coming out. New game systems come out all the time. What makes it notable is that WotC has foolishly angered its fanbase a lot over the past year, and they want to play a different fantasy game that still has the *feel* of D&D. The only one that does that so far is DC20. MCDM feels like you are playing a MOBA at the table. Daggerheart does not quite have the right feel. They can both be fun for the right players, but do not quite have the feel.
I think you’re right. DC20 feels D&D while having some good differences.
While I agree that there aren't too many games (and I wish to see more coming out), I don't think those you named are really adding up to the whole. Mainly because they are D&D variations, not new products. I know we don't have to reinvent the wheel everytime, but to be honest those are just D&D clones with house rules. I do wish to see the TTRPG market expand, but with new products and options that are a thing in itself.
@@Galinarig I am curious how many degrees of freedom does a game have to to have to be not considered a D&D clone. Truly just curious.
@@GlenFinney you said yourself "it feels like D&D". Maybe not feeling like D&D and Pathfinder is a good degree of freedom? If it feels like D&D, emulates a similar game as D&D, create D&D-like characters and stories, is it really something of its own or just a clone/hack? Just curious.
@@Galinarig gotcha. For me, when someone says D&D clone I think of basically all the same mechanics with a few minor tweaks and sometimes name changes. Tales of the Valiant and before it Pathfinder 1st edition were to me D&D clones, for good reasons! D&D family of games in my mind includes things like PF2e, Shadowdark, ICRPG, EZD6, DC20, DCC etc. Games that feel like D&D but have enough divergence to offer a different experience of play. Then you get games that are D&D adjacent like Everyday Heroes, Starfinder, etc that have a debt to the D&D d20 system but are taking it away from its fantasy roots. There’s also D&D alternatives that hit that same fantasy genre but with a lot of their own mechanics like Warhammer FRPG or Mythras. Then there’s the different RPGs like Legend of the Five Rings, Call of Cthulhu, Blades in the Dark, basically their own thing with the commonalities being more to do with the general ones of a TTRPG. Dragonbane is an interesting one because it almost straddles between D&D and Basic Fantasy Roleplaying in some ways mechanically, but feels to me very much like D&D.
No. Competition is good. I myself have not found a new system that I like. 5e has issues, 5.5 sucks, MCDM night be too crunchy (I'm still learning it), Daggerheart is different, but won't replace D&D, nor DC20, ToV is not really different from slapping some more powers into 5e from what I've seen. Pathfinder is too big, and too expensive. Nothing else really does the same thing D&D did. We need MORE choice, not less. I remember the dark days when everything had to be d20.
I was in similar place as you, then I found Tales of Argosa - for me a perfect half way between OSR/OSE and 5e. Playtest should still be free on drive. I recommend checking it.
I feel like you underestimate players willingness to find games and try new things. 15 years ago you would have been right, but with all the options online for finding in person groups its not that bad. Both my main groups right now were found online, not in person. Here are the games I'm playing with the 2 groups:
2 5e , 1 PF2e , 1 WH fantasy, 1 Starfinder, 1 Wrath&Glory, and then one-shots when half the players cant make it.
We have tried Dagerhart, MCDM, ToV, and DC20 during our one shots. Each have the bonuses and we had fun.
Personally I have decided that I will be Running DC20 games over 5e going forward. Like others have said it feels like a great blend of the good stuff from 5e and PF2e but combined with new mechanics that I think are the best. Ill still play 5e once our current games are done if someone in my group runs it, but the growing gap between even homebrew 5e and DC20 is to much for me to run 5e again.
The remaster for pf2e is strange but it is all online for free so it is not bad at all.
Roleplayers looking for a new group may not be familiar with their new group's system, making them shy away from joining. But it's really no different from learning a new edition -- D&D 3.5e and D&D 5e are wildly different from one another, for example. I'd encourage all players; be willing to be a newbie again, because you'll catch on and be just fine.
There is only room in the TTRPG market when existing systems aren't being made to be all that they can be. The influx of competing systems is due to many aspects of D&D 5e clearly being afterthoughts that got no attention in development -- the armor and weapon lists, how poisons work, class and subclass balance... the list was pretty long. D&D left itself open to losing its dominance of the market, which is what any product that isn't made with quality and a fair price point should expect.
i think “DnD Killer” in sentiment means “DnD *monopoly* killer”.
This!
tbh I think this is just the D&D system's side of TTRPGs is splitting up into what the rest of the industry is, lots of competition :)
There's hundreds of TTRPGs out there, but they aren't as popular and all do different things.
Frankly I'm happy that the hobby is splitting into many fish, monopolies aren't good for anyone :)
They are if they provide a common ground for everyone. The story of Babel is a tragedy after all.
@@AnonAdderlan I think choice and innovation is good but I also worry about over fractionation of the TTRPG community. Having good numbers in a common group helps strengthen the game as well. In the end a balance is needed. Probably a go to system that’s a common ground for most players (yea it’ll probably be D&D all rights reserved) but with enough options for players and GMs to explore from that base for certain games and campaigns.
@@AnonAdderlan Monopolies are bad-however, the absolute numbers of ttrpgs are too small to really support much competition. We could support more systems if there were more players.
I love watching new players go through things that have come before in the industry. It has never bee to this degree because there are way more players now than their ever used to be. That out of the way, when AD&D switched to 2E you had some people leave to play other games, or just kept playing the last edition. Happened with ever edition, the most famous was when 4th edition came out and Pathfinder came in to sweep up all those disenfranchised players. I predict the same thing will happen with all the other editions of D&D. Some will go play other games, and some will keep playing the old system, but the bulk of players will just move to the new edition. It's happened every time, and no amount of new games will change that because D&D is just a force of nature in TTRPG industry. Its appeal is reach is far greater than any of the other smaller communities. The only one that comes close is Critical Role, but their game is a Game Master intensive (Its a powered by the apocalypse game, and anything that is multi levels of success is too intensive for the average DM.
I’m so excited to play all the new fantasy systems coming out! Mythic Bastionlands and Stonetop, and some that came out recently, Trophy Dark, Symbaroum, and ShadowDark!
I’m not that interested in DC20, Tales of the Valiant, or Daggerheart because they feel like more of the same old boring D&D.
me borrowing the best mechanics this systems have to offer and incorporating it in to my own vanilla dnd home brew, to be the best dungeon master in all of existence muhahaha
Do it!
5:30 I am actually on my way to try out Savage worlds for PF very soon and see how it goes.
I will say that in the long term I like dnd 5e mostly for the spells, monsters and conventions it invents, though the mechanics slightly less. In that regard I am definetely willing to try DC20 as it seems like a promising fix to a lot of my quarrels. Though I do have a problem with it, being that it just feels a little unfocused in terms of design philosophy. I get that it's trying to be "cooler 5e", but cooler in what sense? Does it just go over the rules of 5e and fix them? It seems to go in many various directions without having something that is unique about it on it's own. Meaning it might be a fun default but not necessarily.
Then there's systems that I think are interesting for specific campaigns rather then having it be "_the_ system your table plays". Systems like Old Gods of Appalacia, Mork Borg and tbh maybe even Daggerheart seem fit for campaigns or one-shots set in their own unique worlds and might just be fun as closed campaigns or anthological One-Shots before moving on to the next best thing.
I think there are just too many fantasy systems. We need to grow the other TTRPG genres! Everyone should check out superhero and sci-fi RPGs!
Do you have any recommendation for scifi RPGs? I kinda want to run transhuman space opera with a bit of magic and heroic/optimistic outlook but I haven't found anything similar. I have used Starfinder 1e so far but I kinda want to try something different (I'm thinking of Traveller but busting the PCs a little during character generation maybe with a free augmentation or something of the sort).
@@Ditidos if you want straight up sci-fi Traveller is great, or Gamma World for bit more post apocalyptic vibes. This last recommendation is a game I developed with my team, called Indominant which is a Superhero Sci-fi TTRPG, and I think it could capture the feel you described of a bit more heroic sci-fi!
@@Ditidos Starfinder 2e is coming out really soon. Starfinder is the closest to what you are describing. One bonus is I hear it won't be too hard to actually combine PF2e and SF 2e in some campaigns. Not really in favor of that -- but could make for a few interesting one shots.
@@quantus5875 I know about Starfinder 2e, but from what I have seen the compatibility with Pathfinder 2e will kill the scifi aspect of it and transform the game into futuristic space fantasy instead. I would prefer something that works as well as possible out of the gate rather than needing to homebrew stuff away.
Hey do you remember that Avatar the last Airbender TTRPG kickstarter? It was recordbreaking. And yet, how many people are actually playing it??? Options are great, but just be mindful of who is offering those options. ToV, MCDM, and especially Pathfinder are all published by incredibly well known and successful studios. The same can't be said for options like DC20!!!
Any failure of Avatar is entirely due to system issues and not the studio involved, and it’s the last thing I’m worried about with #DC20.
@@AnonAdderlan yeah, I'm entirely sure that people said the same thing about the Avatar game prior to launch too. *"the system looks amazing and innovative. blah blah blah."*
Be wary, DC20 has only released rules and character options for 1st level characters. There is an awful lot that they aren't showing, you know, just like Avatar.
@@schemage2210 they’ve released full rules for almost all the classes for 1st and 2nd level, and the base mechanics for levels 1 through 20. There is more that needs to be seen I agree, but the play experience has been great at 1st and 2nd level, and using the base mechanics and talents as placeholders for subclasses and higher levels it’s been a blast playing with characters in the DC20 West Marches up to 6th level that I recall. We’ll have to see how the higher levels look, but the base is solid, solid enough to earn my support at least. I support DC20 because I really want to see where it goes, and so far I’ve gotten a lot of great play out of what there already is. But that’s me.
@@GlenFinney Respectfully, do not try to spin "there is a lot more that needs to be seen" and "if you use placeholders it seems to work" as a positive. D&D 5e works perfectly fine, RAW below level 5 too, but we all know how stupendously broken it gets thereafter. Hell, you would be hard-pressed to find a levelled based game that doesn't have high level abilities that completely redefines how the base mechanics work ESPECIALLY when there is magic involved. So no, 1st and 2nd level content is not enough to judge a game's competency.
@@schemage2210 I’m just saying what I know and what I’ve experienced, as well as what I don’t know yet. Personally I find 5e meh at 1st and 2nd levels, 3rd & 4th works okay. The sweet spot in the games I’ve played and run for 5e has been 5th through 12th. Past 12th level there’s a mix of so what and woah, but it’s good for multiclass builds. 20th level is a lot of fun for one shots and short story arcs. I agree 1st & 2nd level isn’t enough to judge a game’s full competency. For me at least though it’s enough to know if I want to see more. Honestly of all the recent games being talked about in development, DC20 is the only one that’s managed that for me, but I do keep looking at the options.
I have many other games I want to try thats not really any of the big ones coming out soon. Im rather eyeing things like Break!! or Wilderfeast and smaller games I have collected through humblebundles and zines. Im also at the point that I still want to finish my 5e campaign and run another system at the side in smaller chunks. To many games, to little time.
My player backed tales of the valiant so we will have acess to stuff to try (and I trust kobold press products), I like the quick lively combats talked about in mcdm but i know it wont fit my group well if i run it and DC20s growing playerbase seems a bit..overzealous so I feel a bit uncomfy in the hype. And Daggerheart has the vibes I want but i havent familiarised myself with the playtest material and the whole card thing is gonna be a drag if you dont use a good characterbuilder.
Yeah I'm excited to see how Daggerheart evolves cuz it's definitely one that a LOT of people have eyes on, but still feels like it's trying to find its distinguishing mechanics. Plus, they've changed a lot about the game since the playtest.
But yeah DC20 has some big promises, and we'll have to wait and see if all the hype pays out. 🤔
Competition makes developers try harder. :)
I feel like most of these games have some mechanics I will use in my D&D, but I'm not sure I'll adopt any one system completely. I supported MCDM, but doubt I will play it. Debating whether to support the others just because it might be fomo driving me.
I also backed MCDM in the kickstarter. I keep trying to love the MCDM RPG and the Daggerheart games but they haven’t really captured my imagination yet. DC20 did.
D&D stopped with 3.5 for me, yes, I'm a Grognard. I tried 4th and 5th and it no bueno for me. That said I backed the DC20 Kickstarter, I am curious to see what it can do.
Appreciate that willingness to support exploration in the space even if your heart is in 3.5! Love that you can stick to your Grognard roots but still root for the new kids on the block (yes there’s a bad pun in there somewhere)!
I'm a pathfinder 2e shill. However, I am considering running DC20 or Worlds Without Number for my old casual DND group.
Yea that’s a good approach. DC20 actually makes a good bridge for 5e players, and if after making that step they want to go even bigger then you might get them on PF2e (though you might have to sweeten it with a few DC20 tweaks!).
I don’t like the false comparisons to D&D. I think the best thing to do is remove the competition from the picture and evaluate each system on their merits, and then decide which to give your time to.
I like what I've seen about d&d 6e, but am even more excited about DC20, and already backed the kickstarter.
I listened to some stuff on MCDM, and was not impressed... Have listened to *a lot* on Dagger Heart, and can't say I have any interest... Coming up with 5 potential outcomes for each roll, and tracking hope/fear (not to mention how damage works) does Not sound fun....
More competition is good…but DC20 feels a little like Pathfinder at home which in feels like DnD5e at home (more like ADnD5e).
what? How does pathfinder feel like dnd5e at home? It's closer to 4e if anything
@@KajtekBeary Never played 4e so I can’t agree or disagree with you there. What I do know is that Pathfinder has a similar D20 roll high system with better combat, and monster design.
@@human-animalchimeraprohibi2143 I feel like "at home" means worse in internet lingo
Pathfinder was based on 3.5, while Pathfinder 2E is more based on 4E!
@@shallendor I think it’s not a good comparison. Pf1e is based on 3.5e, no doubt about it, but pf2e is inspired, and has some commonalities, with 4e, but it’s far less related to it than pf1e is to 3.5e
DC20 looks pretty cool, but unless it gets an IP or identity to attach itself too that is more interesting than "basic generic fantasy" then it will be unable to survive. If it was the system for something like Obojima, or Titanfall, or The Boys, or Final Fantasy, or even something original then it would have a real shot at success.
I think it's understated how often a good setting and backdrop helps with a system. 5e has a setting, but it's pretty loose and modular, so people are very used to custom settings, and it only gets away with this because it's so big.
Meanwhile every other system I've tried and had interest in has a really strongly established setting. People love Golarion in Pathfinder, LANCER's lore is baked into its mech choices, ICON has a really interesting setting that isn't just a generic fantasy, even Cloudbreaker Alliance got me significantly more interested with its backstory, etc. For me at least, the rules me want to run a system, the setting makes me want to play it.
@@Zedrinbot Exactly!
This is extremely common when a community fractures.. long term, it isn't healthy. Unique settings and different game systems are good competition. But "forked" clones are not. It shows an unhealthy problem. It's all over the programming community with forks of forks of forks and soon the community is so fractured that it collapses on itself because everyone is divided out and no central contributions occur.
For example: Minecraft modloaders, Linux (everything, but the window managers are the big culprit back in the Gnome 3.0 days which caused community fracturing).
For the TTRPG market, this won't be healthy, long term. We don't need half a dozen half baked D20 variants. Or "dnd" killers. That kind of thinking doesn't pan out long term, same as in the MMO market where they spent two decades trying to make a "wow killer" which resulted in terrible design choices and a general mass failure of MMOs because no one was "innovating" they were just cloning.
The real sticking point is that the population size is not there. MMOrpgs actually have small playerbases and extremely low return on investment by modern video games standards.
D&D accounts for a little over half of all ttrpg activity by available data. D&D has, optimistically, 20 million players, of which maybe half-ish are active. We can double that for the 'half of all play,' which is definitely an overestimate given the large overlap between people who play other ttrpgs who are counted as D&D players as well in those metrics since it is many people's first system or play both. Ie, there are somewhere between 20-40 million ttrpg players _globally,_ divided by continent and country and languages and playstyle and age and schedule and system and platform/location, of which probably half-ish are actively playing (~10-20 million).
For an activity that is usually designed around a minimum of three concurrent participants, that is a very small population. As in, insufficient to sustain many systems, let alone forks of systems.
I have a feeling dagger heart will succeed.
Probably lot of its viewers come with title to no experience of DND. For them roleplay and narrative matters. If dagger heart provides enough ropes to make viewing it enjoyable, people will buy it because it is what big boys play.
I hope it does!
Just because people are buying them doesn't mean they are playing them.
Yep -- I question the long term longevity of some of these games. Yes, they may do well short term, but not sure if some of these will have lasting power.
Why not let it fragment ? if there is that unites then let it happen. If people want to re experiment with the present ways they should do that. these changes make way for potential and if people get tired of it they can and will go back to the basics and perhaps coalesce once again under something like DnD or perhaps something these new experiences will bring forth. The benefits outweigh the backdraws and its pretty natural of a reaction. no need to strain too much about it.
DND heartbreakers are old as sin. Personally I think diversity in the hobby is great, even if there's a lot of ground being retrod. Everyone having their own system that fits best is a good thing, and only a few steps removed from how most groups gradually add homebrew.
Ain't it the truth. Spaces like the OSR is where this kind of stuff thrives
This lmao. D&D has always had a tendency of failing forwards, Something negative is always around the brand XD
I've switched to Tales of the Valiant. I don't like all the changes, but it works for changing mid campaign.
You definitely don't need any supplements if you typically switch systems a lot. You can get by on the base rules, if you are only ever going to play Daggerheart once, I'm sure the base game will be enough.
As someone who hasn't been a ttrpg fan as long as some here are my thoughts to the "are there too many games?" question. Short answer is no, a ttrpg youtuber I enjoy watching has said things are better when there are more games and I agree. Also I have been researching various systems and even ignoring the recent kickstarters there have always been multiple ttrpg systems. There is Runequest, Rolemaster a couple d100 systems, there is Castles and Crusades very much inspired from Advanced Dungeons and Dragons, Pendragon, Call of Cuthuleu, Blades in the Dark, Alien, Star Wars, Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, there have always been a ton of systems. However with the popularity of CriticalRole my understanding is D&D 5e specifically became THE ttrpg to the point of being a monopoly so no I don't think there are too many ttrpgs I think people are realizing d&d is not the only rpg out there. People can make their own system, use something else that's always been around, etc.
Each one seems to be doing their own version of D&D. I like DC20 the most out of the 4 big alternatives. I started TTRPGs in a home brew game. RAW play and hyper optimized play annoys me to no end. I want a flexible system that I can add or subtract homebrew from easily.
There are too many people who center the ttrpg space around DnD and don't realize there were already dozens of popular systems and thousands of indie systems out there long before the OGL crisis.
Just to help the algarithem.
I did back all of those games. I don't see any of them as "DnD killers". I just want to distance myself from from DnD and i want to explore all the options. This fragmentation is already common in other gameing communities. My partner plays 5 different scurmish games.
You got me there. Scurmish?
@@GlenFinney woops misspelling. Should be skirmish. Table top war games at the skirmish level.
@@feliciahudson815 cool 😎
People just need to play other systems and know there is more out there.
Too many D&D CLONES and wannabes in particular. They come in with hype... then you look at the manual. It's almost always boring to me in how much it lifted from D&D with minor rewording and reshuffling, maybe one or two 'big' changes that don't really make you say wow or even care. Is that really going to get people to switch?
Don’t know. All I can say is that when I looked at DC20’s manual I became more interested not less. Others will have differing experiences.
I look at it like this i wish there was more then apple or android i wish there were more then Playstation xbox and nintendo i wish there was more then fedex and ups we need more competition in this world
More competition, or better products and services?
Options are better. So long as they aren't trying to basically be D&D clones (looking at *you* Pathfinder...)
Why spend $240 on Pathfinder 2E Remastered (4 books) or however much WotC is going to charge for the new D&D (3 books)? Shadowdark- one book does it all $60. Dragonbane- everything you'd ever want in one box $40. I've switched because Shadowdark, Dragonbane, Old School Essentials, Dungeon Crawl Classics, and Fabula Ultima have a way lower financial barrier to entry and have so much support.
Although if you are arguing financial threshold - Basic Fantasy should be in the picture. Value leader for what you get for your bucks. Even free if you are ok with PDFs.
As a grognard, I find it more amusing to say "you're playing Dungeons & Dragons? LOL!"
Like,
considering how many game systems existed in the "fantasy RPG" space *before* the OGL thing happened, what your 'DND' 5E'er community has done is over-saturate the market with redundent clones...
I get it, you all think 5 years of TTRPG experiance makes you an expert...kool...but, there are game designers from the 80's and 90's who've made their own game systems, that have existed for over a decade now, who actually know how to bring something new to the table in a game system...
...and y'all have ignored them for your uninspired cheap knock-off version.
Chris Pramas and Green Ronin Publishing have been making TTRPG content for over 20 years, including as official 3rd party content creators for D&D 3.x; they made their own game system called "AGE System", after they made the TTRPG of Dragon Age, and then spun it off into the setting neutral "Fantasy AGE" corebook.
The 2nd Edition just came out within the last year...
Monte Cook, Sean K Reynalds, Shanna Germain, and Bruce R Cordell with Monte Cook Games have the Cypher System, a narrative-focused, but deeply rich and customisable roleplaying system with a ton of mechanics and rules that can be "plugged or unplugged", depending on how crunchy you want things.
They have new Genre modules coming out almost every year, and their system is used for both the TTRPG's of "Old Gods of Appalachia" & "The Magnus Archieve" podcast adaptations...
But not just that; when I see people use 5E to make "Star Wars", "Fallout", and other franchise adaptations in... its like... You know those already exist, in systems designed for them, to carry over the feel and universe they're from, right?
...please... any 5E who see's this... Explore different systems, just so you can see how terrible 5E actually is!
Oh, also
2:34 Sorry to tell ya, but WotC have always been terrible... when they were beginning work on 4E; they were still releasing content for 3.5...and according to designers working on that material, the WotC heads didnt even bother to playtest content...they just wanted it finished and out the door so everyone could focus on 4E.
This is how you end up with the "Tome of Magic" for 3.5, which Mouseferatu (aka Ari) has stated to be full of first draft designs that weren't proofed.
This is obvious in things like the Truespeaker, who basically becomes ineffective after level 8...
Or the Shadowcaster who while possessing powerful core-class abilities, by higher levels, practically has half the power of a Warlock...
And the Pact Mage is basically completely broken, except for one specific path-build, which if you don't follow that guide and playstyle, just don't use Pact Magic...
So, WotC have always sucked...
It happened before, it happened again...and then it happened again! They are a corporation, and they are looking to make bucks, not be your friends...stop being fooled by the snakes of Crawford & Perkins.
i dont think there are too many system, the problem ist there are to many similar systems. Everybody wanted to get the D&D crowd and so did just variations of it, mostly technical tweeks and thats it. But reality is there is already a very good alternative to D&D with pathfinder, and people that dont like Pathfinder because its "to complicated" will not play DC20, people that like more tactical gameplay will after a short while return to pathfinder because nothing can compete with the years long experience and content and lore written by really talented and dedicated writers and designers. MCDM wants to create more heroe moments, but it still lacks a lot of flesh beyond that etc. Basically there is only need for one good system per setting suppporting the playstyles focus dependend on roleplay, tactical or rules light. when you have 10 game systems for a similar fantasy setting, there will in the end only survive max 3. and for D&Dish systems and settings, there are already 2 and none of the new ones focus and enhance the roleplay part. Its more like big house rules for an already existing system
DC20 for me.
May try MCDM at some point.
Have no interest in Daggerheart.
Done with D&D. No interest in PF/2e.
Well... technically DC20 and MCDM are D&D, just with different clothing
@@Galinarig they are not Hasbro/WoTC.
@@davidrose7938 If being Hasbro/WoTC is the only thing that defines D&D to you, go for it!
My hot take is that people were already playing a bunch of completely different RPG systems this entire time anyways.
5e is such a dog shit, internally contradictory, incomplete, and incoherent system that it's LITERALLY impossible to run the game rules as written, because the rules contradict themselves every two paragraphs.
Don't get me wrong, I've played in several 5e campaigns, and enjoyed each one, but the game requires so much GM fiat and homebrew just to get them most basic things to function that every DM is half way to having to write their own new game system from scratch every time they sit down to run a campaign.
And that's without mentioning all the weird, total conversion homebrews people run and call 5e, like removing classes, or replacing spells with mana points (and not the ones mentioned as an alternative rule in the DMG) and all the other weirdness people get up to.
No, we were all already playing a thousand different game systems from each other.
Now we're just being more honest about it, and I think that's a good thing.
Okay you’re not wrong!🤣
Are there too many Dice? Too many miniatures? No, good systems will stay, mediocre or bad systems will fade. The player market will decide which live and which die.
Market rarely decides on the basis of quality.
@@AnonAdderlan True enough, but then, should it? Popular does not equal quality, but then quality is subjective as regards TTRPGs.
There are not too many game systems. Period. There have always been many game systems this is not new. New ideas come and go, good systems catch on or the good ideas get absorbed. DC20 looks good, but there are 100s of good systems. BRP, Warhammer, Gurps, Traveler. WWN more the better. Steal borrow and copy what you like and play what you want.
Sticking to Pf2e. Can't wait for Starfinder to join the remaster ruleset 🙂
You know what is frustrating? I realized that WotC was corrupt and anti-consumer two years before the OGL scandal and started working way earlier on a system that improves upon D&D. It has been done for over a year now, it is 100% free, and virtually anyone who played it confirmed that it is way better than D&D. On top of that I did not just create another Fantasy clone like all the others but a universal system that avoids the over-complexity of GURPS and the oversimplification of Fate.
And yet here I am, and Ishanekon: World Shapers is getting a fraction of their attention just because they are famous.
It's not like I want the money. I am offering it for free, after all. Ishanekon: World Shapers is even under the Commons Creative License. But it would be nice if they would give my System a fair shot instead of throwing their Money at half a dozen unfinished systems.
The success you’re seeing is the result of networking and engaging a previously established market. The fact some of these systems may be better than D&D is largely immaterial, which I find just as frustrating as you do.
@@AnonAdderlan Yeah. I have also been networking, but a small fry like myself can mostly network with creators of a similar size. I managed to get a few reviews and interviews here and there but nothing that gets a lot of eyes on my system. I am currently trying to grow my TH-cam channel. It has been a moderate success (I am currently at 97 subscribers), but making weekly Videos ain't easy.
But I won't give up that easily. I am offering a better, finished product for free. I just need to crack the marketing problem, and I am good to go.
I’m taking a look at World Shapers now that I’ve heard of it. Cheers!
@@GlenFinney Thank you. That means a lot to me 😁
@@AnonAdderlan Indeed, and it is hard to compete with marketing resources that WotC and Hasbro have.
I don't think game systems matter all that much. They're all close enough and part of the big umbrella of fantasy TTRPG. In my opinion D&D Is gonna stay where it is, AKA the gateway into the hobby, and all the other systems are gonna be spread around it, each with its own niche. As far as actual play goes and at-the-table dynamics, I think most DMs are going to start ripping pieces left and right from each of these systems, as most already do anyway.
Your comment suggests you haven’t played much else than D&D because other systems can involve completely different skillsets to play. That said most RPGs are far more similar than not.
@@AnonAdderlan I'm just used to get inspiration from all around and homebrew my own rules
There's an unfathomable number of game systems. This isn't anything new. And old games never disappear. You literally have thousands of options.
I would say that ther aren't too many systems out there but there are arguably too many d20 fantasy heartbreakers and D&D derivatives. One of the big problems is that there is a lot of "recycled content" when it comes to d20 fantasy games. Like if you say that you don't play D&D but you play PF2, then that's really mostly more of the same d20 fantasy.
Gogo DC20 💜
Monogamy isn't for TTRPG's!
My favorite TTRPG's and systems:1-Cypher(generic), 2-Teenagers From Outer Space(anime), 3-Gamma World 4E(not based on D&D 4E)(post apocalyptic), 4-All Flesh Must be Eaten(zombie), 5-Battlelords of the 23rd Century(sci-fi), 6-Pathfinder 1E(fantasy), 7-5E(fantasy), 8-Palladium system(generic), 9-AD&D(fantasy), 10-Shadow of the Demon Lord(sci-fantasy/horror) and 11-Star Frontiers(sci-fi)
I still haven't found the perfect TTRPG!
Back in 83, I found that Palladium Fantasy was better than D&D or AD&D! It had skills, better magic system, better psychic system, and armor was damaged and better alignment system!
Our group still play Pathfinder 1, and has since a year after it was released! Our primary campaign started in 3.5, and moved it over to Pathfinder 1!
Lots of memories on that list, and a few I still need to try out!
The difference between DC20 and many of the other new systems is... it was made for the right reason. Daggerheart and a few others are struggling to find their identity, and it's becoming clear they were only made to capitalize on the OGL debacle. DC20 is being designed with care, and the Dungeon Coach is broadcasting his entire methodical process of creation on his streams. DC20 has a level of thoughtfulness behind it that most new systems don't.
I see it the opposite way. Dc20 is a clone, and as such it's capitalizing on ogl crisis, while daggerheart, mcdm, etc. is a complete new game. Dc20 may be good, but only because it's a hombrew of dnd and pf2, which will appeal to some as any hombrew does.
@@eoris12 if you want to say that any D20 roll high fantasy system is a clone of D&D, i guess you're free to have that opinion, but other than that there is more different about DC20 than similarities to D&D.
competition can be a good thing. I'm not familiar with PF or the other systems you stated. but what has been forced on me by DC20 (all the fan boys) but DC20 isn't really new. it's a rewrite of home brew rules or variations of D&D, noting innovative just one person grabbing the free ideas the community has been sharing with each other for years and slapped into a book with a new name and name changes for variants and optional rules or even stealing ideas from video games (CoD), but charging a premium. not to mention at the moment everyone is super hyped for DC20 and it's only 2 levels... don't even have a full set of rules or fleshed out guide... I'm amazed at people's gullibility. It could turn out good but I'll wait.
Sorry for bad spelling (Dyslexia)
I mean the rules are comming thats why its on kickstarter it needs the funds too be produced
I see your point but is it truly a bad idee too take rules that work and find a way too make the rules that work work together and get rid of the bad stuff?? That pepol have a problem with ??
I think their are plenty of small things in the system that are litle changes all of them toghter create something new
At least thats how i look at it
I mean with that logic isnt mcdm just 4e but with different dice??
Or the populair
Shadowdark just 2e mixed with blades in the dark??
I am not saying your dont have a point i agree
But sometimes you dont have too reinvent the wheel you just have too put a other wheel behind it and put a seat inbetween and a handelbar (now you took the wheel but got a bike)
@@galaxyfoxnightsky2042 1. he should have funding to have the rulebook published beforehand. 2. the rulebook should be complete and ready product before asking for the public's money. 3 and my biggest beef, is he's taking money for consolidating other people's ideas and not giving them any credit or royalties. and you still have to wait a year to get what you bought. Sad part is people continue to allow this sort of thing to become acceptable.
@@lightfighter4evr hard disagree, he's just one dude with good ideas and passion for what he does, how do you expect him to get 2 million dollars to present the product without even checking if the audience followed him.
By your logic the creation of ttrpgs should only be allowed to already big companies. I feel you don't have a problem with the system but with crowdfunding as a concept.
@@GutisFive I’m with you on this one. Kickstarters are great for supporting individuals and small companies to get their product to market. Basically like an incubator or angel investment. If it’s a big company or basically a finished product, even if it’s marketed on kickstarter, it’s basically just a preorder with some extras and discounts.