Hello all! Part II of this video is out now! Some folks have had some discussions about the second half of this video were I talk about sustain levels give my starting ADSR settings ("sevens") and I wanted to make a video clarifying what I meant. It's on my page if you're interested in hearing more about the topic, entitled "How I Think About ADSR and Filter Settings For Synthesizer". Thank you all for watching and commenting on these videos, I sincerely appreciate it!
I’m glad this was helpful! I agree, the four stages thing is confusing and I’d never really seen an alternative until finding that chart in the original Prophet manual. Thank you for your comment!
Wow! Why did no one tell me this? I'm into eurorack and like most people in this rabbit hole usually use simple ADR envelopes, where a separate gate module or sequencer decides the so called decay. In all practicality, there is no decay here as the sound is sustained or held after the attack as long as the gate signal is open, and then goes to the release stage after that. So I have out of curiosity tried a few ADSR envelope modules and scratched my head really hard when they didn't do what I expected. Thanks alot. Now I will try and se if I can get some use for these modules after all : )
*Yes. YES!* It took me _years_ to figure out what was off in the way that ASDR is represented in control surfaces, especially with _sliders!_ For a user interface that properly illustrates the _workings_ of these 4 parameters, ADR would have to be _horizontal_ sliders, with S in between being *vertical.*
Each stage of an envolope is a volume level, but Sustain is the only one that remains constant during its duration; the others rise or fall in volume. You also forgot to mention the Sine and Saw wave forms in the basic shapes from traditional subtractice synthesis.
I’m really talking about how the ADSR values of A D and R relate to time, and how sustain inherently doesn’t relate to time. Also, with filter envelope each stage doesn’t necessarily relate to volume at all, just brightness due to the opening and closing of the filter. I also mention sawtooth at 0:31 but you’re definitely right about sine! Most synths I use have triangle instead of sine so I left it out for ease of understanding but you’re absolutely correct, sine is a fundamental waveform. Thank you for your comment!
@andreberniermusic in some instances, Sustain can definitely be a measurement of time. This is true for the instance where a key press is held longer than the sustain length when a Hold is applied before the Decay. Not all ADSR envolopes have an infinite sustain.
I have never once encountered a keyboard based synth, poly or mono, where sustain is a time based value. I’m sure they exist, but for traditional keyboard based synthesis it is fair to say the ADSR sustain is not a time based value. Caveating otherwise would muddy the waters quite a bit for anybody new to this and this video is intended for beginners
With respect. You are entirely correct about sustain being the overall volume for the note as long as the key is pressed. But if you keep the sustain up 100% then the decay is of no use. 100% sustain would mean that the decay ( the volume of the note WHILE you are pressing the key down) dose not have a swell. That swell is useful for all sorts of sounds. Pads, strings or any movement that is dynamic and useful while the not is sustained (drones for instance.) The main problem with understanding is from decay and release. Both can be mirrored. But if you have a long decay with a short release. You will find the pluck within short stabs of a normally sustained sound. Or for a short decay and a long release you will get an almost Reverb quality. Keeping the sus at full volume is pointless if you want the sound to swell and die back to the sustain volume. And that is just as important for the volume as it is for the filter. Especially if both volume and filter share the same envelope. So you are wrong. The sustain is very important. Conduct your own experiments... you will not prove me wrong on this.
All good points! I’m not saying the sustain is not important! Let me be incredibly clear, this is how I personally set mine as a starting point most of the time, as most of the time I want the ability to sustain the note indefinitely should I choose to. As for swells I get that motion from the filter envelope and a filter pedal my left foot is mapped to. These suggestions are by no means a rule nor are they hard specifications. Thank you for your comment!
I respectful would like to disagree on your recommendation! Rarely, for a new sond I want to explore, I use the same ADSR for the amp than for the filter, and let's not talk about modulating other parameters!
Fair enough! In the music world I thought “volume” would be more clear for the explanation but yes, it’s absolutely a voltage level. Thank you for your comment!
Modular synth guy here. I'd say yes to both definitions; sustain is the sustained volume of a voltage while a gate signal is high, while the rest of the stages deal with current that is either rising or falling over time. As a building block in the analog world of DC voltage the envolopes function is to send out a volume of voltage, through its various stages, to a VCA (voltage controlled attenuator), which handles the shaping of a waveform which is in the audible (AC) signal i.e the sounds that you can hear. While the defining factor of the sustain level can often be attributed to how long the gate is held, such as a the press of a key, pad on a controller, or even defined by a sequencer, there is another more esoteric stage on some envolopes that is often left forgotten about. That stage is "Hold". So, instead of ADSR, these envolopes are AHDSR. The way the hold stage works is sort of a cutoff threshold for notes held, so if you release the key before the end length of the Hold stage, the amplitude of the voltage will advance to the decay, then sustain level, for its set time period, before finally going into its final release stage. However, if the key is held past the duration set by the Hold stage, it will then advance to decay, then be held again for the sustain length, and then finally for the decay period. In fact, each stage of either ADSR or AHDSR is a volume level. The difference between these volumes is that the volume is held stationary for the duration of both Hold and Sustain, whereas the volume of Attack rises in amplitude through time, and drops for the duration of both Decay and Release. Of course, there are also other forms of envolops out there beyond AD, ADSR, and AHDSR. One of my favorite Eurorack manufactures often uses an envolope that has only three stages on some of their VCOs: Shape Curve, and Time. Another example would be the famous module byv Make Noise "MATHS", which has a Rise and Fall time, and a third knob that will define an exponential or logarithmic response between the rise and fall times.
Sustain, just like everything else in audio is case by case. Putting out information like this with full confidence is ridiculous. You have made one useful point for someone who doesn't understand adsr properly, but to make up rules about sustain values for every synth sound is moronic.
I think I’m understanding, you’re saying I’m making the assertion you should “always” set your sustain or envelope values one way. Just to be clear, that’s not the case at all! I think I say in the video that 99% of the time I leave my filter sustain at zero and my amplifier sustain at 100. That’s true, and it’s how I usually build synth patches as I want my hand to dictate the length of the note, and not fade out prematurely. I also match attack and release between filter and amplifier envelopes as a starting point, as if I want something different from either I can adjust from there but it keeps timing consistent across both values as a starting point. “Sevens” is merely a starting setting I use to get a nice sound quickly on an instrument, and then I adjust it from there. Nobody’s saying you shouldn’t adjust values. These are just suggestions and how I use synth instruments, please do not believe these are hard and fast rules. I just want to suggest things that have helped me for anybody who’s starting out.
Hello all! Part II of this video is out now! Some folks have had some discussions about the second half of this video were I talk about sustain levels give my starting ADSR settings ("sevens") and I wanted to make a video clarifying what I meant. It's on my page if you're interested in hearing more about the topic, entitled "How I Think About ADSR and Filter Settings For Synthesizer". Thank you all for watching and commenting on these videos, I sincerely appreciate it!
Can't find it, did you take it down for editing or something?
Super useful. You explained this very well! I really enjoy your education content. More please!
I appreciate it, Dave, thank you!
Thank you very much ! That helps a lot :)
I’m so glad to hear that! Thank you 🙏
I've never looked at it this way, very interesting, I've never liked the adsr being shown as 4 stages either.
I’m glad this was helpful! I agree, the four stages thing is confusing and I’d never really seen an alternative until finding that chart in the original Prophet manual. Thank you for your comment!
Andre, I could watch you explain things all day. I am pleased to report that I sub-vocalized "sustain" to win this round of inside voice Jeopardy.
Thank you so much! I’m glad you found this useful and I appreciate your kind words
Omg bro...how did it take this long for me to hear someone explain this in way my brain can understand it? haha. I'm like 7 synths in hah. Thank you!
Thank you so much for saying that, I’m so glad I could be of help!
Wow! Why did no one tell me this? I'm into eurorack and like most people in this rabbit hole usually use simple ADR envelopes, where a separate gate module or sequencer decides the so called decay. In all practicality, there is no decay here as the sound is sustained or held after the attack as long as the gate signal is open, and then goes to the release stage after that. So I have out of curiosity tried a few ADSR envelope modules and scratched my head really hard when they didn't do what I expected. Thanks alot. Now I will try and se if I can get some use for these modules after all : )
Amazing! I’m glad this could be of help!
*Yes. YES!*
It took me _years_ to figure out what was off in the way that ASDR is represented in control surfaces, especially with _sliders!_ For a user interface that properly illustrates the _workings_ of these 4 parameters, ADR would have to be _horizontal_ sliders, with S in between being *vertical.*
That’s a really good concept! It would definitely delineate the difference between sustain and the other three, that’s an interesting idea
Each stage of an envolope is a volume level, but Sustain is the only one that remains constant during its duration; the others rise or fall in volume.
You also forgot to mention the Sine and Saw wave forms in the basic shapes from traditional subtractice synthesis.
I’m really talking about how the ADSR values of A D and R relate to time, and how sustain inherently doesn’t relate to time. Also, with filter envelope each stage doesn’t necessarily relate to volume at all, just brightness due to the opening and closing of the filter.
I also mention sawtooth at 0:31 but you’re definitely right about sine! Most synths I use have triangle instead of sine so I left it out for ease of understanding but you’re absolutely correct, sine is a fundamental waveform. Thank you for your comment!
@andreberniermusic in some instances, Sustain can definitely be a measurement of time. This is true for the instance where a key press is held longer than the sustain length when a Hold is applied before the Decay. Not all ADSR envolopes have an infinite sustain.
I have never once encountered a keyboard based synth, poly or mono, where sustain is a time based value. I’m sure they exist, but for traditional keyboard based synthesis it is fair to say the ADSR sustain is not a time based value. Caveating otherwise would muddy the waters quite a bit for anybody new to this and this video is intended for beginners
With respect. You are entirely correct about sustain being the overall volume for the note as long as the key is pressed. But if you keep the sustain up 100% then the decay is of no use. 100% sustain would mean that the decay ( the volume of the note WHILE you are pressing the key down) dose not have a swell. That swell is useful for all sorts of sounds. Pads, strings or any movement that is dynamic and useful while the not is sustained (drones for instance.) The main problem with understanding is from decay and release. Both can be mirrored. But if you have a long decay with a short release. You will find the pluck within short stabs of a normally sustained sound. Or for a short decay and a long release you will get an almost Reverb quality. Keeping the sus at full volume is pointless if you want the sound to swell and die back to the sustain volume. And that is just as important for the volume as it is for the filter. Especially if both volume and filter share the same envelope.
So you are wrong. The sustain is very important. Conduct your own experiments... you will not prove me wrong on this.
All good points! I’m not saying the sustain is not important! Let me be incredibly clear, this is how I personally set mine as a starting point most of the time, as most of the time I want the ability to sustain the note indefinitely should I choose to. As for swells I get that motion from the filter envelope and a filter pedal my left foot is mapped to. These suggestions are by no means a rule nor are they hard specifications.
Thank you for your comment!
I respectful would like to disagree on your recommendation!
Rarely, for a new sond I want to explore, I use the same ADSR for the amp than for the filter, and let's not talk about modulating other parameters!
I’m not sure I fully understand, but fair enough! These are just starting points I use, none of these are hard and fast rules.
No. Sustain is not a volume level. It is a voltage level.
Fair enough! In the music world I thought “volume” would be more clear for the explanation but yes, it’s absolutely a voltage level. Thank you for your comment!
Modular synth guy here. I'd say yes to both definitions; sustain is the sustained volume of a voltage while a gate signal is high, while the rest of the stages deal with current that is either rising or falling over time. As a building block in the analog world of DC voltage the envolopes function is to send out a volume of voltage, through its various stages, to a VCA (voltage controlled attenuator), which handles the shaping of a waveform which is in the audible (AC) signal i.e the sounds that you can hear.
While the defining factor of the sustain level can often be attributed to how long the gate is held, such as a the press of a key, pad on a controller, or even defined by a sequencer, there is another more esoteric stage on some envolopes that is often left forgotten about. That stage is "Hold".
So, instead of ADSR, these envolopes are AHDSR. The way the hold stage works is sort of a cutoff threshold for notes held, so if you release the key before the end length of the Hold stage, the amplitude of the voltage will advance to the decay, then sustain level, for its set time period, before finally going into its final release stage. However, if the key is held past the duration set by the Hold stage, it will then advance to decay, then be held again for the sustain length, and then finally for the decay period.
In fact, each stage of either ADSR or AHDSR is a volume level. The difference between these volumes is that the volume is held stationary for the duration of both Hold and Sustain, whereas the volume of Attack rises in amplitude through time, and drops for the duration of both Decay and Release.
Of course, there are also other forms of envolops out there beyond AD, ADSR, and AHDSR. One of my favorite Eurorack manufactures often uses an envolope that has only three stages on some of their VCOs: Shape Curve, and Time. Another example would be the famous module byv Make Noise "MATHS", which has a Rise and Fall time, and a third knob that will define an exponential or logarithmic response between the rise and fall times.
@@klownklocked8064 whoa this is an awesome comment, thank you for taking the time to explain all of this!
Sustain, just like everything else in audio is case by case. Putting out information like this with full confidence is ridiculous. You have made one useful point for someone who doesn't understand adsr properly, but to make up rules about sustain values for every synth sound is moronic.
I think I’m understanding, you’re saying I’m making the assertion you should “always” set your sustain or envelope values one way. Just to be clear, that’s not the case at all! I think I say in the video that 99% of the time I leave my filter sustain at zero and my amplifier sustain at 100. That’s true, and it’s how I usually build synth patches as I want my hand to dictate the length of the note, and not fade out prematurely. I also match attack and release between filter and amplifier envelopes as a starting point, as if I want something different from either I can adjust from there but it keeps timing consistent across both values as a starting point. “Sevens” is merely a starting setting I use to get a nice sound quickly on an instrument, and then I adjust it from there. Nobody’s saying you shouldn’t adjust values.
These are just suggestions and how I use synth instruments, please do not believe these are hard and fast rules. I just want to suggest things that have helped me for anybody who’s starting out.