What Happened to Gondor's Religion?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 ก.พ. 2025
- In this video we explore the history of religion in Middle Earth and specifically in Gondor and Númenor, as well as its role within the Lord of the Rings as a whole.
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Makes sense knowing the theology of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. Tolkien did not want to make an allegorical Catholic Church as that would present huge theological issues
Exactly, since his world is supposed to be ours, then it takes place before the prophets and before the Incarnation, therefore there can be no prior revelation to that or Tolkien would, as you say, run into a huge theological mess he did not want to write himself into. Easier just to do subtle things as he did with magic and such.
@@AugustusRThat’s not exactly accurate. Tolkien says Arda is our world at a different stage of imagination, not a different point in time. So the events are neither before not after our history
@@calebklingerman7902 He did mention our time would be the sixth or more likely seventh age as the ages would quicken, and that he envisioned his writings as a sort of mythological past. Not to mention there used to be a framing story with an anglo-saxon traveler sort of finding about this very ancient past and all, while Tolkien presents himself as a translator of the Red Book of Westmarch. So yeah, the Age of Man is the forth/fifth, and so the age of our ancient civilisations up to the Incarnation is the sixth, and so we are supposed to have been living in the seventh for the past 2024 years.
I think that's proof that his religious adversely affected his creativity.
@@AugustusR There are still problems with that. For example, how do you explain the fact that the language of the Rohirrim developed the way it did in the Third Age, then somehow managed to develop organically once again in the Seventh Age, thousands of years later? Rohirric is just Anglo-Saxon. How could it perfectly replicate itself in a different place and time? Did they have tobacco in the Old World 7000 years ago, only to forget about it and have it go extinct until its rediscovery in the New World? I think this is why he stresses the difference in imagination, rather than in time. It allows for incongruities that would have been anachronistic otherwise.
Thanks for describing Númenor and their religion in an easily digestible way! This makes the aid between Gondor and Rohan much sweeter in LotR.
Important to note here, is that Tolkien was heavily influenced by Beowulf, and things in there are done somewhat similar. It, too, was written by a Christian but displays a world that is pre-Christian or at least not in the way Christian we would think of it.
This also means that both stories need to have heroes, who are not Christian in the modern sense, but having pagan heroes is something both Tolkien and the author of Beowulf seemingly didn't want.
Both stories solved the problem by mentioning religion as little as possible.
There's still the references to it though.
Very well done, thank you for tackling this topic. I've always seen it as the Valar being Eru's representatives on earth/in Ea at that time, and they were careful not to allow a religion to spring up where they themselves became worshiped (more implied than outright stated). And of course we know the Jews, and even pre-Jewish peoples did worship God in their own ways well before Christ was born. So I've never had much trouble with how they worshipped Ilúvatar, and see it as Ilúvatar being so much a part of just who the Faithful were that they didn't feel a need for something more overt or grand, other than the times they did the prayers at the Meneltarma. And yes, it would have been tricky for Tolkien who a) disliked allegory and b) was concerned about committing sacrilege to have come up with a system of worship for his stories that wouldn't have satisfied him and not gotten him in trouble with the Catholic Church (at least some part of it). Plus making the religion "background but important" makes the works more accessible to non-religious people.
I don't think there's should be an issue of accesibility because just as Christian can enjoy secular content, so can non-religious people to enjoy relgion themed stuff.
Dude I requested this video ages ago and you actually made it and I never saw it!!! I didn't know any of this stuff. Great video! Thank you!!!
Thank you for watching!!!!!!
this is my favourite channel!!! Thanks a lot for the video and the mention 😊❤
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@@InkandFantasy its my pleasure really its so worth it!! have been following you since day 1
I just love your voice.. I wish it would be possible to do a book audio.. I'd listen every night
I'm curious what it looked like when the Gondorians first encountered the Northmen. There must have been a missionary conversion process.
Thank you for the video!
I think that the Elves that live in Valinor ( or marginally the Elves that live in Middle Earth that are in contact with the Maiar like Melian, Osse, Uinen ) are more like the Adam and Eve in the Eden Garden, when and where they could speak with the aid of an Angelic intermiediary, with God himself.
The Elves could speak directly with all the Valar and Maiar, with Manwe and Varda, there is no necessary for a temple or an organised religion, for they is a normal thing speak everyday with the beautiful loyal angel of Eru!
They could speak with the firetborn child of God, Manwe, or the other spiritual children of Illuvatar.
Another great video! Well done mate.
The Legendarium is the best example of Implicit Pagano-Christianity: the essence of Europe
It's interesting how the only practiced religion mentioned in most of the books is the Melkor/Sauron-worship of the King's men, Easterlings and Haradrim.
Pious Catholic accidentally dunking on organised religions like his own
Religion in Lotr is such an interesting topic and yet I recently had this realization. Where are the priests and churches. Then without even searching it I see a clip of Tolkien mentioning this. Now I go down the rabbit hole of religion in middle earth. Tolkien was a traditional catholic. After changes in the mass, he was known to loudly shout the responses in Latin while other said it in English. He above many people in his time was extremely connected with faith, ritual, and temples. Yet his works show a world that has no real reference to this. I originally just thought that it wasn't shown because the narrative didn't focus on that, but it seems that it goes further than that. Beyond all of this, I am not sure what this means and what message he is trying to share. It is certainly not one against ritual and religion. Nor of temples/Churches. So what is it? Or is it just an example of how Tolkien likes to abstract his beliefs into a world that so very slightly embodies those same beliefs, yet can be experienced without outright saying it?
Smoke alarm at 0:53
Catholic and amateur theologian here. Interestingly, Numenor and Gondor’s worship of Eru heavily resembles Ancient Judaism, but with the King being both the High Priest and only Priest. A mountain as a site of worship, one person alone having the right to be in God’s presence and the reverence for His name all come from the. However, we Christians also believe Jesus Himself is King and Priest, and we Catholics believe our present day Bishops and Priests are merely successors of the Apostles who Jesus Himself appointed to be stewards until His return (with the Pope specifically being the successor to Peter, the leader of the Apostles, and holding his office). Jesus’ body is also referred to as the new Temple, which is why in Revelation there would be no need for a Temple when He Himself is here. Thus they do indeed resemble the ancient Jews but also foreshadow what would be the final form of Christianity after the end of the current world when the way we worship now is no longer needed when God is at last here in the flesh with us.
tolkien didn't bother to write abything about the daily life of the people in the middle earth really. religion was one among those things
You answered my question I'd just asked a few days ago, thanks!
Whats interesting about this is the priest king aspect leading the people in worship of God for this is what Christ is in the Christian faith. Not only is He, God the Son, but He also brought back the Melchizedek priesthood, being both Priest and King. Melchizedek was the percursor and foreshadowing of the King to come.
At least Orome came to say hello to the elves...no one greeted humans...Eru didn't contact no one... there's no Adam Noah or Abraham amongst the edaini
In fact, there is a biblical person in Lord of the Rings, only his name has been slightly changed. Can you guess which one?
Interesting how Tolkien wove element of Catholicism and Protestantism into the human cultures of his pre-Christian world
Protestatism?
@@imperiodopleisousemallinio6449 I thought so, with how the Gondorians were trying to maintain their religion once the line of kings were lost.
This kind of too-holy-to-worship religion was, unfortunately, why Sauron was able to trick Ar-Pharazon. The King is the only "priest" of the Numenorean religion. But what happens if the King loses faith? The Valar avoided direct contact with Men, even the Numenoreans. In order to explain why Men's lives were limited, they instead sent Elven envoys who couldn't really explain it well themselves, as their own relationship to Eru Iluvatar was different. So Men were even more prone to believe that the Valar were pulling some kind of con on them. Sauron was a Maia after all, and they would have seen him as possessing insider knowledge of what goes on in Valinor. How can you believe in salvation when your religion has no scripture, no theology, only an abstract belief in an abstract God?
The high priest went unhinged and there was a revolving series of interim folks who filled the position, serving as nothing more than temporary doorstoppers, until it was discovered that his rival framed him as a way to get his foot in the door for the leadership position. This exceeded the Steward's threshold for patience as he was no longer willing to handle their problems, and he just said "f it" and got rid of the entire priesthood, slamming the door on religion as a formal institution in Gondor.
Uhh what? What is this in reference to in the stories? Or is this an elaborate joke lol
There was no worship at that time, because God had not yet established a way that he wanted to be worship and that was pleasing to him. This he did fist at covernat of Moses and later a perfect worship and sacrifice, when Christ instituted the holy eucharist in commemoration of his dead on the Cross.
You need to capitalize and punctuate and use quotation marks in the captions properly. Why do you have them so lazily typed? It lessens the quality of the great presentations.
To be honest I haven’t really focused on that because it already takes about 3 hours to write a script, another 2 to record, edit the audio and add music and then approximately 1 hour to an hour and a half of editing per minute of footage of video that you see and lastly three and a half more hours of adding subtitles that I then need to recheck by watching these 10 minute long videos another 3-4 times. Not to mention making thumbnails and actually uploading the video, adding tags etc, that take another 2 hours combined.
With that said, I have actually thought about the punctuation in the subtitles before and whether or not it’s worth the time commitment and I’ll definitely fix it if the demand arises, as this has surprisingly been the first comment mentioning it as far as I’m aware. Thank you very much for the constructive feedback, as well as for watching. Maybe I’ll try working on it for the next video and see how much additional time it took and whether it’s worth it. Thanks again!
i thought that tolkien left religion out so it could be about the characters
nope.
He left it out because there was no need for it. There's no evidence that religion existed until it began to be used to manipulate people at a certain point. But most of it actually comes from medieval times, the nadir of civilization in the west.
I think he cared a fair bit more about world building than character development. It is high fantasy after all.
🎉
If there had been actual Catholics in the Lord of the Rings they would have flogged Eowyn for cross dressing, burned Gandalf for witchcraft and cut down the White Tree to built a church out of the wood.
lol have you never heard of Joan of Arc
@@sithersproductions yes, remind me again what happened to her at the end of the story? How was it she died?
@@jeromesilberman9412She was not condemned for crossdressing
@@joao.fenix1473thats one of the mains reasons why they killed her.
@@AT-gk1tw no, the English killed her because they considered her a political opponent in the 100 Years' War, a living propaganda.
The inquisitorial process was carried out in England by English theologians at the behest of the English government, all without Rome's approval. the whole process was just an excuse to execute it.
a few decades later, still in the 16th century, the Church categorically stated that Joan of Arc's trial was illegal and exonerated her.
Why do you think a French woman was tried by the English during a war between England and France?
>Never read Tolkien
>Acts like I understand what Ink & Fantasy is talking about
I am so based.
Why does a Christian have to write a “Christian trilogy”? Can his stories stand on their own?
His stories do stand on their own, as evidenced in that people of many religions and worldviews still admire them. But it's important to know the author's intent, especially when he wrote about it in the letters.
Something I wish to know is, how did the staunch localist who promoted cultural diversity square that with the all-encompassing, universal claims of his beloved Catholicism?
Because he was a localist, not a nationalist or a racist.
@@SMiki55 Yeah? So? Christianity by its very nature is universal, not localist.
@@bjornf8518 yet there are numerous cultural rites within Roman Catholicism itself.
@@SMiki55 Yes, but they are all assimilated into the grand fold of Catholicism, and so by necessity have to adjust to the narratives and limitations imposed by the dogmas.
Cultural diversity and a universal religion are not exclusive ideas. The Catholic Church has numerous rites for different cultures
No offense intended towards the narrator of this video. Tolkien was an Orthodox Catholic.
Lots of spergs in the comment section.
And that final sentiment is where as a Catholic Tolkien had things completely backwards. It was in the Pre-Christian World when the True God was worshiped in a Pagan Way that his worshiped revolved around Temples and exclusive Priesthoods and Sacrifices. Christ came to liberate the world form Organized Religion not impose it.
Uhhh no
@@TheMinskyTerrorist Yes, the new Testament unambiguously favors Congregational Polity.
??? Pre Christian European religion was not only completely without a concept parallel to the Christian view of an omnipotent/omnipresent all wise/all loving god, but religion was FAR less organized than Christianity. For real dude, the Catholic Church is structured like a corporation, the opposite of unorganized religion.
@Kuudere-Kun No it doesn't
God clearly does not have a problem with rituals or sacraments, as He even endorses such practices. He doesn’t stand opposed to “organized religion,” that’s just some boogeyman modern evangelicals have constructed because they believe that throughout the extensive history of the Christian church, they alone since the time of the apostles have *truly* understood the gospels and know the correct way to worship.
Why would they need a "religion"? Why do you perpetuate this nonsense?
I don’t think I understand the question. Tolkien as a Catholic saw Religion as a must, and these were human beings with souls and a God.
@@InkandFantasy no he didn't. He even addressed this in interviews. He clearly saw it as a mythological space which has no bearing on his beliefs in the world he himself lived in. Only in indirect, metaphorical ways.
Your insistence that humans need some "religion" is reactionary nonsense. Why are you a salesman for religion?
J R R Tolkien in Letter 142
“The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision.”
@@john.premose not that being a reactionary is bad thing, people are tired of modern thinking, and tolkien already expressed in some of his letters that "the lord of the rings is fundamentally a catholic book",so cope with that.
@@victorsantos7479 “not that being a reactionary is a bad thing”. Yeah I pegged you for what you are right away. You’re not difficult to spot. How embarassing for you.
People need to finally let the wildly illusory notion perish that Tolkien was some ”devout Christian.” The work constitutes his one true religion.
Why would he lie about being a Catholic then? If he wished to fit within his society he would lie about being an Anglican, but even this would be unnecessary - there was no Inquisition in 20th century England and various New Age movements had flourished openly for decades. If he indeed wished to create a new religion, he would have simply followed the footsteps of Crowley or countless others British esotericists. Saying outright he was a Catholic and that his work was Catholic in nature would be detrimental to an effort of creating a new religion.
@@SMiki55 Tolkien wanted to create a ”mythological” base for England. Given the complexities of man, to what extent he was aware of the underlying clash of this creation with his professed faith is difficult to say. Such an aim would not have been feasible had he chosen to become some cult figure in the mold of Crowley. Although it’s noteworthy how the sixties zeitgeist, hostile to the traditional foundation of western society, eagerly embraced LOTR, highlighting its subversive nature.
Mythology and religion are two different beasts :)
@@SMiki55 This the artificial differentiation people attempt. The processes remain the same.
@@JesseBrown-qf6zp the lines might have been blurred a millennium ago but nowadays the distinction is simple: barely anyone believes in myths, whereas religion is still taken literally by masses.