@@TheEZGZ You are like my 'VW professor'. I never expect any reply... but since I got you on the line...the first 1600 dual port (Engine series AE) I am stripping down had a measured (dial gage) end play of 0.014". How dangerous is that. I have not split the case yet but am wondering if you would say this engine is a lost cause already. I'm not building it for high performance or to use it as a daily driver. It will be for my hobby car to putt around Sunday afternoons.
one of your better videos. Exactly what i needed at the moment. You must be pretty busy they Mr. Guy, I had asked for advice a few weeks back, but im glad your living your retirement and not spending it answering questions on youtube.
Another problem that people refer to as "pounding the case" is the mains pounding into their housings from revving a non-counterbalanced engine too high. In some engines, one bearing will pound in and the crank can break from flex. I had one engine apart where all mains had pounded into the case about .015 and it was still running; a couple of the pins were even starting to wear in their holes from the bearings trying to spin. If an engine has this problem you will hear the knock when the engine is running. It is a deeper tone knock than the higher-pitched knock of a rod or wristpin and you can feel it on the case. Many owners seem to think that because the aircooleds are flat fours or "boxer" type engines that they are made to rev, not knowing the issues of not being counterbalanced. Of course, there are very few low-mileage engines left as well.
Damn... you made a really great point here. I was just putting together a motor that had a whole lot of end play. Now it makes me think twice about running it. I don't want to destroy a case. Appreciate your info!
I trust the VW shop manual more than the internet. There are a lot of sloppy engine's out there that run just fine if you don't rev them out all the time.
@@TheEZGZ I had 35 thou play of crank walk this morning. I put it in my rail anyway... knowing I'll have to do either a build or swap it out to a ecotec engine
I recently tore my 1600 down cuz of ALOT of end play and a bad rod bearing, i know what happens to the motor with end play but it was nice to see this detailed video thanx!
Sorry to hear that Christopher. Good Luck with your project. Take you time and feel your way along. I have some build vids and there are other guys posting good stuff. Watch them all
Hi Patrick, I went to your channel and saw you do the compression check. Try that again with all 4 sparkplugs out and hold the throttle wide open with the air cleaner off. If you really like the car I would build a brand new engine with new parts. Later on if you find another car you like better you could always swap engines and sell the old car. Maybe you could even find another car that has a rebuilt Dual port but bad body and put that engine in your car. I like your 71. I drove one like that to work every day for years.
I remember the first time I learned about endplay. I could move the pulley about 20 thou. Wear around the flywheel shims is another reason go into neutral at stoplights.
Thank You . Just took one carb off , going to clean it today . then look in the other one and be sure it is clean . Going to look into the stock fuel pump . if it works going to use it . put oil in and see if starts . if it does run , may look to see if i can at least slow the oil leak down . A new seal prob be like the one in it now , in no time
You said you heard it run before so I'm sure you will get it. Those Webers won't be happy with any more than 3 PSI. Be real gentle lifting the top of the carb. The gasket is trapped under the float but most times you can reuse it. 3 hail mary's 2 Our Father's. Have fun
I believe you are one of the most knowledgeable motor builder on the You Tube. That said I am building my first VW motor. I am starting with a 1600 dual port dual relief from a type 3 . I am converting it to a type 1. I had the case line boared. I bought a set of Silverline bearings and noticed the notches in the bearings is quite a bit larger in diameter than the dowel pins. I am guessing this is by design? I also have concerns about how deep the dowel pins can go in the case. Should I replace them or not push them all the way in? Is this a job for Locktite? Thank you very much for all you do. I hope you have time to reply. I would be interested what any of your subscribers have to say also. Thanks again. Jim in Hatfield Massachusetts.
Hey Ez Informative video as always, thanks! It would be great if you could do a Vid all about Spark plugs: how to read the info on them when thay are pulled out how to set them out from a stock vw comportment ... gaps... types... and so on. Thank you!
Hey. Finally a video that properly explains endplay. but I wonder. Is there a correct way to counter endplay? I'm rebuilding my engine and dont want to mess up the position of the rods with too many shims
There is usually enough room on the wrist pin and crankshaft journal so the connecting rod centers and has a happy place If you change it after thousands of miles becomes unhappy. It won't cause your engine to blow but it will wear sooner. There are shims over .020 but use at least 3 no less. More is ok
Hey EZ could use your opinion. I just pulled my 11 year old 1776 with a Norris 407S and racing springs (unsure if crank is counterweighted). I've been refreshing her seals and I am chasing an oil leak that went from an occasional drip to a steady drip stream and the usual suspects show some oil leaking (aluminum pulley had a groove in it, oil cooler seals were leaking, small amount of oil spray on the bellhousing on lower driver side, thankfully no oil seepage from block after heat applied near cylinder 3 top of case). My endplay measures at .007, I currently have .008, .008, & .009 shims on it. I was unable to detect any movement on the thrust bearing with the flywheel off and someone pulling/pushing on the pulley (my finger on both the bearing and the case). I am getting conflicting advice that I should definitely get her back to .004 or .005, others recommend expressly leaving her at .007 due to her age and a possibility that I simply might have missed a slight amount of movement on the bearing (hard to detect with just a finger apparently). I sort of get the impression your in the latter camp? Your opinion would be greatly helpful to me.
Come on Buddy your already there. Split the case and do it right. You can't measure or feel the thrust from the pulley pushing it back. Your End play is out of spec and you need to go with an oversizer thrust cut or replace the cas
Great Video. Can you please help me here. I am putting my engine together and at TDC on cylinder one I have about .025" of end play with no shimes. I don't think with so little play I can't use 3 shimes and may only have to use 2. Any issues?
There was nothing said about end play after you adjust the valves. My 1500 now has valve chatter and some end play after adjustment. Before the adjustment, there was no end play at all. I don't understand this. The engine runs, but I'm a but nervous about it. The shop in my town will not help we with this issue.
a few years ago i remember reading an article about buying a used maserati quattroporte v8 [not that i could afford one ] and it seems they a huge problem with thrust washers wearing out and and dropping out and so ruining the block/crank and this was on cars that had low mileage just imagine getting stuck with that ,probably cost more to fix that the car would be worth, i know your going to say it would never happen a vw .
I wonder if that was covered on warranty? So many modern engines have design problems. Leaky head gaskets, Nylon timing gears etc. Most of the time it seems the cause is from mixing different materials together to make an engine that heats and cools. Thermodynamics is the devils toy. Maybe thats why there are so many kinds of engines out there.
Hi! Found this great video, thank you ! Hope you're still following and able to reply to a question. If you have for instance more than double of the recommended play but is able to tighten it to specs using any combo of 3 shims (which may be up to 1,02 mm if you add 0.36, 0.34 and 0,32 together) , is that then OK and the engine will do ok for a while longer? Or, as you show in the video, as the shaft actually is moved axially, would that be an issue? Basically is there any point of adjusting the play on a worn engine even if you can manage within the 3 standard shims....? I hope the answer is that yes, as long as you can manage with 3 shims of VW specified thicknesses, the wear is acceptable and the axial movement no issue.
You can't fix a sore knee by putting a bandage on your elbow! If your engine has that much wear then you would be moving your connecting rods over to one side. You probably suffer from low oil pressure due to bearing wear and your flywheel seal leaks oil all the time. Find another engine to use or build a new engine using new parts. New counterweighted crank with new rods and new case if your in the game for the long term. Or just keep adding oil and driving it until it falls apart. VW people are so cheapscate. Look at the cost of a new car and it just isn't as much fun to drive but still has problems. Is expensive to own and goes down in value.
I just bought my daughter a 72 bug the motor is a mess. At least 0.040"- 0.060" end play in the crank...Cracks between the plug hole and valve seat. Painted pink, purple and lime green the poor engine tinware was...Ahhhhh..
EZGZ, i get the part where you shift the crankshaft by adding shims on one end...but what if you split the shims between both ends to keep the crank centered?
Not possible with stock parts. Some day when you get into one it will make sense. I like your thinking out of the box motivation. Thank you for sharing your thoughts.
My friends 1600 dual port how is about 1500 mi on it and now it has more than acceptable end play, we did set it to 4thousand it's a standard standard and a new case any clue to Why it loosened up?
@@TheEZGZ we're pulling the motor out today we're going to see what's up I have a feeling he didn't shim it right fingers crossed because it was a brand new case I appreciate your help 😁
Hi Ez, as always thanks for your videos. I’d be lost without them. Hoping to get your advice. I built an 1800cc with new crank and bearings. I’m measuring the endplay with 3 - 0.010 shims installed at 0.030. Do I change out the 0.010 shims for 3 - thicker shims? But I can only find 0.014” shims. Which will still leave me short by 0.018. What should I do? Can I use more than 3 shims?
I wasn't6 sure so I got out the books. They picture 3 shims and only describe using 3 shims. All my builds use 3 shims. I have had to use some used shims and I buy an assortment pack of shims when I order parts for a build. I have seen some badly worn shims in older engines. I can't give you an answer on using more than 3 shims. Just remember every time you push in the clutch those shims are robing together. That's why we all develop access end play over time.
EZ, how's it going? I'm still not 100% clear on this "end play" stuff. I've seen many, many videos on this subject and everyone states 3 to 5 thousands play. Then they add or subtract shims between the flywheel and end of the crank. I don't see how that changes the movement of the crank. It just seems like you're changing the distance or gap between the flywheel face and the back of the engine case. And like you said if a guy's buying a used motor, the first thing they want to do is grab the front pulley and start yanking on it. 🙄 Am I missing something here? Thanks much! JW.
Is this a test of my Patience or what? hehe Well the crankshaft is one long solid peace. We can't just have it flopping around ok? The only bearing that has shoulders on it is next to the flywheel. That NO.1. The flywheel is manufactured With a shoulder facing the engine block which leaves a space between the flywheel and the bearing shoulder. Everytime you push on the clutch your forcing the flywheel against the engine block so you need that .003 to .005 space to allow for oil just like your main bearings and rod bearings. In this situation the force is along the length axis instead of the side axis. The space is always going to be an unknown variable due to wear on machine tools and different company's supplying parts. When your engine is running there is supposed to be spill off of oil that goes into that space. The factory always call's out a combination of 3 steel shims. This is because when your engine is not running there is no oil pressure to lubricate and ( COOL ) that bearing as well as move some small amount of heat caused by the friction of the clutch in heavy traffic. When the engine has been sitting for long periods of time the oil drains back into the crankcase so those 3 shims carry enough residual oil so that if you start the engine with your foot depressing the clutch you don't have metal to metal contact. As the engine run's there is vibration and harmonics going on all the time. The engine case is softer than the steel crankshaft and over time and abuse and infrequent oil changes you get wear. Keep in mind that at the opposite end of the crank at the rear of the car is your camshaft gear and distributor drive gear that are both cut at an angle. This also causes some thrust load and why the tolerance is kept between .003 and .005. As the engine gets older the case (engine block) get's pounded out at the flywheel end which as you recall at the beginning of this ramble is the only spot that holds things in position. Most folks that go yanking on rear pulley's don't know whats going on. Because of the angle cut cam gear you might not feel the end play or you might notice there is so much that when you pull it back and forth it moves side to side as well. Thats play in the cam gear teeth. The cam is usually pretty tight because of the valve spring pressure holding the closed valves against the camshaft. Any person that is building a engine and has the proper manuals to provide bolt torque and engine tolerance will or should be aware of how and why this all comes together and makes sense. Even if it doesn't make sense it shouldn't stop you from following directions from the factory. You CAN NOT build a engine properly that will last from watching U tube video's. Almost any engine thrown together will start up and run if it close to correct. I think it stupid that people are impressed by somebody making a short video and doing a 1st start and reving the engine like an idiot. I would be more impressed if there was a follow up video of that engine running well thousands of miles later. Thats why I try to show daily driver engines with more power than stock that live and last in my cars for many enjoyable years. I do not build race engines. It's just not in my budget and you have to use expensive fuel and get poor MPG. I hope this explanation has answered your question. If your hesitant about starting your project (Just Do It) Now I'm going to go take a nap. LOL EZGZ out!
@@TheEZGZ EZ, I really appreciate your lengthy answer. Hope I didn't stress you out 😁 and you had a good nap. But yes, I'm clear on the end play now. As a matter of fact, after messaging you I later realized what I was not getting... that rear thrust bearing is stationary and therefore allows for a change in end play with adding or removing shims. But I sincerely want to become proficient on rebuilding VW motors, and sometimes you gotta pick the brains of the seasoned experts like yourself. Even if it's a small tip or trick here and there. And no, I'm not educating myself solely from TH-cam videos. I prefer reading books and manuals on the subject. My latest book I finished was the Prescott Phillips how-to from 2019. It's really good. But hey, thanks again, I really appreciate you sharing knowledge. JW
tank's for the information it is greatly apriciated I olso have a 1970 but the car recently had the motor redan as a 1915 but for time to time de car back fires from the exust and my iron is hi tank's ez gat blessed
The factory calls out the connecting rod end play as .004 - .012in with a wear limit of .028in There is also plenty of room on the wrist pin. Why drive yourself crazy with the ideal location? In fact the later 1600 connecting rods are made with an offset built in to better center the rod in the piston that is why you always face the little forge mark up during assembly of the crank and rods. In addition the arrow on the piston facing the flywheel is because the wrist pin is not centered as well. Everything is a compromise when building a flat boxer style engine.
@@TheEZGZ Thanks for your prompt reply, my concern is one of my friends have an engine case just got a fresh machining, when I checked it's end play, I found that it will need 6 shims, so I'm afraid that will affect distributor gear and the brass gear also the piston alignments
6 shims amount to ? How many thousands. Sounds like the fellow who line bored his case got wild. Maybe. You know you can buy the thrust bearings in oversized thrust in .010 increments. Most guys match the oversize. Like if the bore size is .020 they set the thrust for .020. At any rate you when you have your engine build in a proper VW engine stand you can snug up the flywheel to the crank to check your end play and your cam is in place with your cam gear and you can go ahead and mount your distributor in the bottom half. At that point I also find my zero TDC point with a deck height tool and you can ever set the timing on your dizzy to 10 degree + TDC . You do all that before you do you final assembly and see how things turn. You can then install your upper case half and start slowing increasing the torque and turning the crank to see how it feels. At final torque it should turn smoothly by hand. Then split the case clean it and add your sealant for final assembly.
If they fit sloppy in the case I would sure be looking for some other issues because that's not normal or acceptable. Check your pin size too. I don't have specs off the top of my head
hi my son and I are building a Baja.... we took it to the local yocal to set the end play. well we went to install er and I checked with my dial indicater.... it measured 8 thous..... can I use this or should re due er.... and why did he do this to me.... UG times ten
He may not have had the right combonation of shims to get it exact. If I was charging somebody money to do a job I would want it right. If I was paying for that specific job I might have asked him to show me the result before I paid him and excepted the job as done. A little late now..... It's not the end of the world but it's going to always be in the back of your mind and your always going to listening for it. That's all very annoying. You know whats going to make you happy. It will run along time the way it is..........
Will end play or worn distributor drive gear allow the motor to change timing by it self?? My engine sits at idle at 10* then rpms go up as well as the timing then back down to 10* and continues back and forth seems to happen when warmed up not when cold
Hi Ez. Built the engine a year ago to normal 1600 spec. Got a problem though. I now seem to have loads of endplay. Havnt measured it yet,as it’s still in the van. But I’m a bit concerned. What do you think it could be? I’ve done on,y literally about 2000 miles or so,and I did them carefully. All the best.👍🏾🇬🇧
Sorry to here that. Well let me think a moment. If you used 3 shims to set your end play and you checked your oil pressure soon after the rebuild and you have a lot less oil pressure now. I would say take it apart and have a look inside. If your not willing to do that I would start looking for another engine that is in good condition.
@@TheEZGZ Yes.Not sure about the oil pressure,as I have no gauge fitted. It’s not losing any either. I used the three shims as I’m meant too,but I think the clutch cable was far too tight with no play,so the clutch was always in operation,but with no slippage,so putting pressure on. I checked the oil earlier today and noticed it was ‘sparkly’. Probably the thrust bearing? Hoping I Havnt span it in the case. You got any experience with Aline bores,just in case? Job for the winter,I think. Thank you.👍🏾🛠🇬🇧
Hi EZGZ, nice vid as usual. Two questions: 1. what is the difference with 3 shims adding up to the size you want as opposed to 5 thinner shims; 2. wouldn't there be an effect on the timing when the end-play is too great.
All the service manuals I have call for 3 shims. I've obviously done 4 but it would be better to order a shim pack and wait it out. The effect on timing is not a concern. www.cbperformance.com/product-p/1362.htm
Ezgz I have watch this video and many others that you do, my question is about crank end play, I have a approximately a 1968 cc engine that I was putting new heads and rings i measured crank end play and I notice it appears to have too much but it seems to jump when pulling back and forth and I’m wondering if I getting a true measurement. It has a stroker Pauter crank, small block Chevy rods and dual springs, I have the flywheel off seal out and shims removed, with the hop when measuring and dial indicator is showing .038 movement with the hop any advice would be appreciated thanks
If your that far in why on earth would you not split the case and have a look? Your not obligated to change anything. Have a look clean and reseal the case halfs. You don't have to remove the crankshaft you know but you will be able to see how the center main is wearing and if the thrust bearing is loose in the case. .003 to .004 is ideal thrust but the thrust bearing itself needs to be snug in the case. You might just be feeling the distributor drive gear which is angle cut.
That’s what I think is happening with the dist gear because I only have .009 shims from last build before I split the case can I get a better measurement by taking out the dist drive Thanx for comeback
There is two round shims under the dizzy drive and they will get hung up on the brass crank gear. Just split the case put your flywheel on without completely torqueing it down. very simple if you have a engine stand
Hello EZGZ. Just wondering if there is a way to correct to much end play on a old engine. Can you shim the pulley end? when the end play becomes too much can you use this case on a rebuild, or is the engine case done? i
If you watch the entire video i cover that. Some times when a case gets wear it can be line bored and oversize bearing installed. The thrust surface is addressed at that time.
OK I did see your entire video. I heard you talk about line bore. I thought that a line bore only helped to resize the main bearing area to make it round and straight again. I'm not that familiar with VW bearings. So you can get it over sized for the bearing and thrust area?
If i continue to run my motor with endplay in my buggy, what other problems am i creating? I dont have the money to rebuild as of now so i have to run it how it is for now!!!
Just don't rev it to the moon all the time. I seen and owned engines like that and they can last for years. When things start to go really bad you will know it and you then have to spend the money. Probably won't be more in the long run. The wear and damage is already done.
Who cares what somebody told somebody. Read it from the VW shop manual and it says 1.5 to 4 Thousands. You have to have wiggle room to start out with and as we all know as it ages it get bigger. 3 shims is mandatory because every time you push in the clutch it shoves the crankshaft all the way against the crank thrust bearing. If you have zero thrust at cold after it heats up you will be putting side pressure on the #1 bearing guide pin. At least 3 shims and the do come in different thickness so you can get it right. Per VW !!!!!!!!!!!
Thanks for the video! I have a '65 1500 and got a new crankshaft and bearings in there. I have a bout a 1/4" in play in the axial direction. Is that fixable or is the engine case dead?
I'm new to aircooled VW. Your videos and explanations are by far the best out there! Thanks a ton.
Glad you like them!
@@TheEZGZ You are like my 'VW professor'. I never expect any reply... but since I got you on the line...the first 1600 dual port (Engine series AE) I am stripping down had a measured (dial gage) end play of 0.014". How dangerous is that. I have not split the case yet but am wondering if you would say this engine is a lost cause already. I'm not building it for high performance or to use it as a daily driver. It will be for my hobby car to putt around Sunday afternoons.
@@rkwurtz it will last a very long time. I had 1776 like that and drove it 20 years
one of your better videos. Exactly what i needed at the moment. You must be pretty busy they Mr. Guy, I had asked for advice a few weeks back, but im glad your living your retirement and not spending it answering questions on youtube.
Another problem that people refer to as "pounding the case" is the mains pounding into their housings from revving a non-counterbalanced engine too high. In some engines, one bearing will pound in and the crank can break from flex. I had one engine apart where all mains had pounded into the case about .015 and it was still running; a couple of the pins were even starting to wear in their holes from the bearings trying to spin.
If an engine has this problem you will hear the knock when the engine is running. It is a deeper tone knock than the higher-pitched knock of a rod or wristpin and you can feel it on the case.
Many owners seem to think that because the aircooleds are flat fours or "boxer" type engines that they are made to rev, not knowing the issues of not being counterbalanced. Of course, there are very few low-mileage engines left as well.
They were not ment to rev over 4k RPM and only breifly if at all. I think you idea's are right on the mark.
Damn... you made a really great point here. I was just putting together a motor that had a whole lot of end play. Now it makes me think twice about running it. I don't want to destroy a case. Appreciate your info!
I trust the VW shop manual more than the internet. There are a lot of sloppy engine's out there that run just fine if you don't rev them out all the time.
@@TheEZGZ I had 35 thou play of crank walk this morning. I put it in my rail anyway... knowing I'll have to do either a build or swap it out to a ecotec engine
I recently tore my 1600 down cuz of ALOT of end play and a bad rod bearing, i know what happens to the motor with end play but it was nice to see this detailed video thanx!
Glad it helped. Good Luck with your project.
Good info GZ , should be very helpful to anyone trying to figure out the how and why of crankshaft end play . Take care
Thanks Loyd
Lots of great info. I enjoy learning new things every day. Thanks for being there for all of us. Keep rolling brother. VW:-)
Thanks EZ. Rebuilding an engine at the moment.
Waiting for 3 X 0.34mm shims to turn up!
Stay Cool.👍🏾🛠
Have fun!
Thanks for the great video. Just lost my motor due to excessive end play. Studying hard to learn to build me a new 1600 dual port.
Sorry to hear that Christopher. Good Luck with your project. Take you time and feel your way along. I have some build vids and there are other guys posting good stuff. Watch them all
Hi Patrick, I went to your channel and saw you do the compression check. Try that again with all 4 sparkplugs out and hold the throttle wide open with the air cleaner off. If you really like the car I would build a brand new engine with new parts. Later on if you find another car you like better you could always swap engines and sell the old car. Maybe you could even find another car that has a rebuilt Dual port but bad body and put that engine in your car. I like your 71. I drove one like that to work every day for years.
I remember the first time I learned about endplay. I could move the pulley about 20 thou. Wear around the flywheel shims is another reason go into neutral at stoplights.
Good Point
Informative video. Thanks for taking the time to make it.
Thank You . Just took one carb off , going to clean it today . then look in the other one and be sure it is clean . Going to look into the stock fuel pump . if it works going to use it . put oil in and see if starts . if it does run , may look to see if i can at least slow the oil leak down . A new seal prob be like the one in it now , in no time
You said you heard it run before so I'm sure you will get it. Those Webers won't be happy with any more than 3 PSI. Be real gentle lifting the top of the carb. The gasket is trapped under the float but most times you can reuse it. 3 hail mary's 2 Our Father's. Have fun
I believe you are one of the most knowledgeable motor builder on the You Tube. That said I am building my first VW motor. I am starting with a 1600 dual port dual relief from a type 3 . I am converting it to a type 1. I had the case line boared. I bought a set of Silverline bearings and noticed the notches in the bearings is quite a bit larger in diameter than the dowel pins. I am guessing this is by design? I also have concerns about how deep the dowel pins can go in the case. Should I replace them or not push them all the way in? Is this a job for Locktite? Thank you very much for all you do. I hope you have time to reply. I would be interested what any of your subscribers have to say also. Thanks again. Jim in Hatfield Massachusetts.
No lock tight. Just motor oil. Larger hole won’t hurt. Makes it easier when you drop the crank assembly in place.
Hey Ez Informative video as always, thanks!
It would be great if you could do a Vid all about Spark plugs: how to read the info on them when thay are pulled out how to set them out from a stock vw comportment ... gaps... types... and so on.
Thank you!
Great Idea! Let me think on it. Thanks for watchin and commenting
Great info GZ.. Thank you, Every little bit helps.. Safe travels brother...
Thank you for your comment and support. I hope you get many smiles to the mile as well.
Thanks for that. Really informative.
Glad it was helpful!
Thanks that was great information.
Very clear, simple explanation. Thanks:)
Your very welcome. Thanks for watching and commenting
Thanks it did clear that up and it was a great explanation!
Thanks
I will check on that and I will keep you posted am very great full for the I'n fo yu help me alot good blessed an keep the good work tank's
Was very helpful! Thanks
Glad to hear it!
Great information brother will definitely help someone 😉👍🏻👍🏻🇨🇦
I try. Thanks for your support.
Hey. Finally a video that properly explains endplay. but I wonder. Is there a correct way to counter endplay? I'm rebuilding my engine and dont want to mess up the position of the rods with too many shims
There is usually enough room on the wrist pin and crankshaft journal so the connecting rod centers and has a happy place If you change it after thousands of miles becomes unhappy. It won't cause your engine to blow but it will wear sooner. There are shims over .020 but use at least 3 no less. More is ok
Hey EZ could use your opinion. I just pulled my 11 year old 1776 with a Norris 407S and racing springs (unsure if crank is counterweighted). I've been refreshing her seals and I am chasing an oil leak that went from an occasional drip to a steady drip stream and the usual suspects show some oil leaking (aluminum pulley had a groove in it, oil cooler seals were leaking, small amount of oil spray on the bellhousing on lower driver side, thankfully no oil seepage from block after heat applied near cylinder 3 top of case). My endplay measures at .007, I currently have .008, .008, & .009 shims on it. I was unable to detect any movement on the thrust bearing with the flywheel off and someone pulling/pushing on the pulley (my finger on both the bearing and the case). I am getting conflicting advice that I should definitely get her back to .004 or .005, others recommend expressly leaving her at .007 due to her age and a possibility that I simply might have missed a slight amount of movement on the bearing (hard to detect with just a finger apparently). I sort of get the impression your in the latter camp? Your opinion would be greatly helpful to me.
Come on Buddy your already there. Split the case and do it right. You can't measure or feel the thrust from the pulley pushing it back. Your End play is out of spec and you need to go with an oversizer thrust cut or replace the cas
@@TheEZGZ Thanks EZGZ. I hear ya, guess i'm intimidated, never split a case before.
Awesome video!!
Great Video.
Can you please help me here. I am putting my engine together and at TDC on cylinder one I have about .025" of end play with no shimes. I don't think with so little play I can't use 3 shimes and may only have to use 2. Any issues?
Big issues!!!! It will eat itself up. There has to be 3. The one in the middle floats. Try a different flywheel
Great video, very informative! Thanks.
I'm glad it helped. Thanks for your comment and support
So is there a fix or you need a new case?
There was nothing said about end play after you adjust the valves. My 1500 now has valve chatter and some end play after adjustment. Before the adjustment, there was no end play at all. I don't understand this. The engine runs, but I'm a but nervous about it. The shop in my town will not help we with this issue.
Stiffer springs and solid rocker shafts are going to make more noise and if you use steel pushrods that just makes it worse. I doesn't hurt anything.
Thanks for the video!
:-)
a few years ago i remember reading an article about buying a used maserati quattroporte v8 [not that i could afford one ] and it seems they a huge problem with thrust washers wearing out and and dropping out and so ruining the block/crank and this was on cars that had low mileage just imagine getting stuck with that ,probably cost more to fix that the car would be worth, i know your going to say it would never happen a vw .
I wonder if that was covered on warranty? So many modern engines have design problems. Leaky head gaskets, Nylon timing gears etc. Most of the time it seems the cause is from mixing different materials together to make an engine that heats and cools. Thermodynamics is the devils toy. Maybe thats why there are so many kinds of engines out there.
Hi! Found this great video, thank you ! Hope you're still following and able to reply to a question. If you have for instance more than double of the recommended play but is able to tighten it to specs using any combo of 3 shims (which may be up to 1,02 mm if you add 0.36, 0.34 and 0,32 together) , is that then OK and the engine will do ok for a while longer? Or, as you show in the video, as the shaft actually is moved axially, would that be an issue? Basically is there any point of adjusting the play on a worn engine even if you can manage within the 3 standard shims....? I hope the answer is that yes, as long as you can manage with 3 shims of VW specified thicknesses, the wear is acceptable and the axial movement no issue.
You can't fix a sore knee by putting a bandage on your elbow! If your engine has that much wear then you would be moving your connecting rods over to one side. You probably suffer from low oil pressure due to bearing wear and your flywheel seal leaks oil all the time. Find another engine to use or build a new engine using new parts. New counterweighted crank with new rods and new case if your in the game for the long term. Or just keep adding oil and driving it until it falls apart. VW people are so cheapscate. Look at the cost of a new car and it just isn't as much fun to drive but still has problems. Is expensive to own and goes down in value.
I just bought my daughter a 72 bug the motor is a mess. At least 0.040"- 0.060" end play in the crank...Cracks between the plug hole and valve seat. Painted pink, purple and lime green the poor engine tinware was...Ahhhhh..
Oh boy! I need this information. Thanks bubba GZ!
Glad it helped.
EZGZ, i get the part where you shift the crankshaft by adding shims on one end...but what if you split the shims between both ends to keep the crank centered?
Not possible with stock parts. Some day when you get into one it will make sense. I like your thinking out of the box motivation. Thank you for sharing your thoughts.
TheEZGZ
And thanks to you as well, sir. I'm sure a lot of us subscribers have gained from your experience.
My friends 1600 dual port how is about 1500 mi on it and now it has more than acceptable end play, we did set it to 4thousand it's a standard standard and a new case any clue to Why it loosened up?
Did you use 3 shim?
Is your gland nut coming loose or not torqued down correctly with lock tight? Improper rear main bearing fit?
@@TheEZGZ we're pulling the motor out today we're going to see what's up I have a feeling he didn't shim it right fingers crossed because it was a brand new case I appreciate your help 😁
A+ on educational video.
Thank You Sir. I'm still learning new stuff all the time.
Hi Ez, as always thanks for your videos. I’d be lost without them. Hoping to get your advice. I built an 1800cc with new crank and bearings. I’m measuring the endplay with 3 - 0.010 shims installed at 0.030. Do I change out the 0.010 shims for 3 - thicker shims? But I can only find 0.014” shims. Which will still leave me short by 0.018. What should I do? Can I use more than 3 shims?
I wasn't6 sure so I got out the books. They picture 3 shims and only describe using 3 shims. All my builds use 3 shims. I have had to use some used shims and I buy an assortment pack of shims when I order parts for a build. I have seen some badly worn shims in older engines. I can't give you an answer on using more than 3 shims. Just remember every time you push in the clutch those shims are robing together. That's why we all develop access end play over time.
thanks EZGZ great advice
Thank you sir
EZ, how's it going? I'm still not 100% clear on this "end play" stuff. I've seen many, many videos on this subject and everyone states 3 to 5 thousands play. Then they add or subtract shims between the flywheel and end of the crank. I don't see how that changes the movement of the crank. It just seems like you're changing the distance or gap between the flywheel face and the back of the engine case. And like you said if a guy's buying a used motor, the first thing they want to do is grab the front pulley and start yanking on it. 🙄 Am I missing something here? Thanks much! JW.
Is this a test of my Patience or what? hehe Well the crankshaft is one long solid peace. We can't just have it flopping around ok? The only bearing that has shoulders on it is next to the flywheel. That NO.1. The flywheel is manufactured With a shoulder facing the engine block which leaves a space between the flywheel and the bearing shoulder. Everytime you push on the clutch your forcing the flywheel against the engine block so you need that .003 to .005 space to allow for oil just like your main bearings and rod bearings. In this situation the force is along the length axis instead of the side axis. The space is always going to be an unknown variable due to wear on machine tools and different company's supplying parts. When your engine is running there is supposed to be spill off of oil that goes into that space. The factory always call's out a combination of 3 steel shims. This is because when your engine is not running there is no oil pressure to lubricate and ( COOL ) that bearing as well as move some small amount of heat caused by the friction of the clutch in heavy traffic. When the engine has been sitting for long periods of time the oil drains back into the crankcase so those 3 shims carry enough residual oil so that if you start the engine with your foot depressing the clutch you don't have metal to metal contact. As the engine run's there is vibration and harmonics going on all the time. The engine case is softer than the steel crankshaft and over time and abuse and infrequent oil changes you get wear. Keep in mind that at the opposite end of the crank at the rear of the car is your camshaft gear and distributor drive gear that are both cut at an angle. This also causes some thrust load and why the tolerance is kept between .003 and .005. As the engine gets older the case (engine block) get's pounded out at the flywheel end which as you recall at the beginning of this ramble is the only spot that holds things in position. Most folks that go yanking on rear pulley's don't know whats going on. Because of the angle cut cam gear you might not feel the end play or you might notice there is so much that when you pull it back and forth it moves side to side as well. Thats play in the cam gear teeth. The cam is usually pretty tight because of the valve spring pressure holding the closed valves against the camshaft.
Any person that is building a engine and has the proper manuals to provide bolt torque and engine tolerance will or should be aware of how and why this all comes together and makes sense. Even if it doesn't make sense it shouldn't stop you from following directions from the factory. You CAN NOT build a engine properly that will last from watching U tube video's. Almost any engine thrown together will start up and run if it close to correct. I think it stupid that people are impressed by somebody making a short video and doing a 1st start and reving the engine like an idiot. I would be more impressed if there was a follow up video of that engine running well thousands of miles later. Thats why I try to show daily driver engines with more power than stock that live and last in my cars for many enjoyable years. I do not build race engines. It's just not in my budget and you have to use expensive fuel and get poor MPG. I hope this explanation has answered your question. If your hesitant about starting your project (Just Do It) Now I'm going to go take a nap. LOL EZGZ out!
@@TheEZGZ EZ, I really appreciate your lengthy answer. Hope I didn't stress you out 😁 and you had a good nap. But yes, I'm clear on the end play now. As a matter of fact, after messaging you I later realized what I was not getting... that rear thrust bearing is stationary and therefore allows for a change in end play with adding or removing shims. But I sincerely want to become proficient on rebuilding VW motors, and sometimes you gotta pick the brains of the seasoned experts like yourself. Even if it's a small tip or trick here and there. And no, I'm not educating myself solely from TH-cam videos. I prefer reading books and manuals on the subject. My latest book I finished was the Prescott Phillips how-to from 2019. It's really good. But hey, thanks again, I really appreciate you sharing knowledge. JW
Great info.
tank's for the information it is greatly apriciated I olso have a 1970 but the car recently had the motor redan as a 1915 but for time to time de car back fires from the exust and my iron is hi tank's ez gat blessed
Your Welcome Stanly. Check for exhaust leaks at all connections.
Hi, how to measure the ideal location for the connecting rod while assembling, because some cases have an excessive end play
The factory calls out the connecting rod end play as .004 - .012in with a wear limit of .028in There is also plenty of room on the wrist pin. Why drive yourself crazy with the ideal location? In fact the later 1600 connecting rods are made with an offset built in to better center the rod in the piston that is why you always face the little forge mark up during assembly of the crank and rods. In addition the arrow on the piston facing the flywheel is because the wrist pin is not centered as well. Everything is a compromise when building a flat boxer style engine.
@@TheEZGZ Thanks for your prompt reply, my concern is one of my friends have an engine case just got a fresh machining, when I checked it's end play, I found that it will need 6 shims, so I'm afraid that will affect distributor gear and the brass gear also the piston alignments
6 shims amount to ? How many thousands. Sounds like the fellow who line bored his case got wild. Maybe. You know you can buy the thrust bearings in oversized thrust in .010 increments. Most guys match the oversize. Like if the bore size is .020 they set the thrust for .020.
At any rate you when you have your engine build in a proper VW engine stand you can snug up the flywheel to the crank to check your end play and your cam is in place with your cam gear and you can go ahead and mount your distributor in the bottom half. At that point I also find my zero TDC point with a deck height tool and you can ever set the timing on your dizzy to 10 degree + TDC . You do all that before you do you final assembly and see how things turn. You can then install your upper case half and start slowing increasing the torque and turning the crank to see how it feels. At final torque it should turn smoothly by hand. Then split the case clean it and add your sealant for final assembly.
Great information.
Thanks for watching and c ommenting
What I'd the metal bearing dowl pins don't fit snuggly?
If they fit sloppy in the case I would sure be looking for some other issues because that's not normal or acceptable. Check your pin size too. I don't have specs off the top of my head
so you don't need to be on the flywheel side with the engine out to check end play?
Engine out and flywheel side is the preferred way to check and make changes.
hi my son and I are building a Baja.... we took it to the local yocal to set the end play. well we went to install er and I checked with my dial indicater.... it measured 8 thous..... can I use this or should re due er.... and why did he do this to me.... UG times ten
He may not have had the right combonation of shims to get it exact. If I was charging somebody money to do a job I would want it right. If I was paying for that specific job I might have asked him to show me the result before I paid him and excepted the job as done. A little late now..... It's not the end of the world but it's going to always be in the back of your mind and your always going to listening for it. That's all very annoying. You know whats going to make you happy. It will run along time the way it is..........
Noob question here, but why can't you shim BOTH ends half the needed distance, so you aren't relocating the crank so far in one direction?
Short answer is this 75year old design was engineered this way. My Toyota 2.4 I-4 uses your suggestion on the center main and shims both sides
Will end play or worn distributor drive gear allow the motor to change timing by it self?? My engine sits at idle at 10* then rpms go up as well as the timing then back down to 10* and continues back and forth seems to happen when warmed up not when cold
It's supposed to do that. Keep watching my video''s. Look for one on static timing the EZGZ way
TheEZGZ I mean not when I’m driving it just siting in my driveway! Like it’s floating back and fourth
Hi Ez.
Built the engine a year ago to normal 1600 spec. Got a problem though.
I now seem to have loads of endplay. Havnt measured it yet,as it’s still in the van. But I’m a bit concerned.
What do you think it could be? I’ve done on,y literally about 2000 miles or so,and I did them carefully.
All the best.👍🏾🇬🇧
Sorry to here that. Well let me think a moment. If you used 3 shims to set your end play and you checked your oil pressure soon after the rebuild and you have a lot less oil pressure now. I would say take it apart and have a look inside. If your not willing to do that I would start looking for another engine that is in good condition.
@@TheEZGZ Yes.Not sure about the oil pressure,as I have no gauge fitted. It’s not losing any either. I used the three shims as I’m meant too,but I think the clutch cable was far too tight with no play,so the clutch was always in operation,but with no slippage,so putting pressure on. I checked the oil earlier today and noticed it was ‘sparkly’. Probably the thrust bearing? Hoping I Havnt span it in the case. You got any experience with Aline bores,just in case?
Job for the winter,I think.
Thank you.👍🏾🛠🇬🇧
Hi EZGZ, nice vid as usual. Two questions: 1. what is the difference with 3 shims adding up to the size you want as opposed to 5 thinner shims; 2. wouldn't there be an effect on the timing when the end-play is too great.
All the service manuals I have call for 3 shims. I've obviously done 4 but it would be better to order a shim pack and wait it out. The effect on timing is not a concern. www.cbperformance.com/product-p/1362.htm
great info.
Thank you
Ezgz I have watch this video and many others that you do, my question is about crank end play, I have a approximately a 1968 cc engine that I was putting new heads and rings i measured crank end play and I notice it appears to have too much but it seems to jump when pulling back and forth and I’m wondering if I getting a true measurement. It has a stroker Pauter crank, small block Chevy rods and dual springs, I have the flywheel off seal out and shims removed, with the hop when measuring and dial indicator is showing .038 movement with the hop any advice would be appreciated thanks
If your that far in why on earth would you not split the case and have a look? Your not obligated to change anything. Have a look clean and reseal the case halfs. You don't have to remove the crankshaft you know but you will be able to see how the center main is wearing and if the thrust bearing is loose in the case. .003 to .004 is ideal thrust but the thrust bearing itself needs to be snug in the case. You might just be feeling the distributor drive gear which is angle cut.
That’s what I think is happening with the dist gear because I only have .009 shims from last build before I split the case can I get a better measurement by taking out the dist drive Thanx for comeback
.009mm
Thousands of and inch not millimeter
There is two round shims under the dizzy drive and they will get hung up on the brass crank gear.
Just split the case put your flywheel on without completely torqueing it down. very simple if you have a engine stand
Hello EZGZ. Just wondering if there is a way to correct to much end play on a old engine. Can you shim the pulley end? when the end play becomes too much can you use this case on a rebuild, or is the engine case done? i
If you watch the entire video i cover that. Some times when a case gets wear it can be line bored and oversize bearing installed. The thrust surface is addressed at that time.
OK I did see your entire video. I heard you talk about line bore. I thought that a line bore only helped to resize the main bearing area to make it round and straight again. I'm not that familiar with VW bearings. So you can get it over sized for the bearing and thrust area?
Yes, Line bore are done with two different tools. Thrust square's up the Bell Housing side.
If i continue to run my motor with endplay in my buggy, what other problems am i creating? I dont have the money to rebuild as of now so i have to run it how it is for now!!!
Just don't rev it to the moon all the time. I seen and owned engines like that and they can last for years. When things start to go really bad you will know it and you then have to spend the money. Probably won't be more in the long run. The wear and damage is already done.
@@TheEZGZ , it’s probably got 25 thousands play!!
nice video
Thanks for your comment and support
I was always told that if you can feel "ANY" end play its probably to much !!!! When setting up end play only use "3" shims !!!! Per VW !!!!
Who cares what somebody told somebody. Read it from the VW shop manual and it says 1.5 to 4 Thousands. You have to have wiggle room to start out with and as we all know as it ages it get bigger. 3 shims is mandatory because every time you push in the clutch it shoves the crankshaft all the way against the crank thrust bearing. If you have zero thrust at cold after it heats up you will be putting side pressure on the #1 bearing guide pin. At least 3 shims and the do come in different thickness so you can get it right. Per VW !!!!!!!!!!!
Thanks for the video! I have a '65 1500 and got a new crankshaft and bearings in there. I have a bout a 1/4" in play in the axial direction. Is that fixable or is the engine case dead?
Did you shim the crank? You can't use more than 3
Hey EZ your spark plug wire is OFF your crankcase breather!
ooops LOL
Could someone please tell me how to remove the distributor drive shaft?
Thanks
No big deal. Get a frigging book and tool.www.cbperformance.com/product-p/6501.htm
Hey GZ... have you ever seen one of the 1/2 VW motors used for ultralight aircraft?
m.th-cam.com/video/jgibg3WyApg/w-d-xo.html
That was just to weird. Those propeller illusions were strange
Great information,