Building the gutter back into the rafter ends, as you are demonstrating, creates a more sophisticated visual, but at the same time a substantially higher risk of water damages into the soffit should the gutter become impaired by ice or by foliage debris. Split fascias, as we called that style of gutter installation, became undesirable after about WWII, when the full fascia, one piece flat board became the norm. Less labor intensive installation and a better chance of dumping the gutter overflow outside the face of the soffit. At 73 years old, and a lifelong carpenter in the Boston housing arena, I worked on all of the generations of the gutter/ soffit iterations.
I can only speak about my experiences in the UK. Going back to the Iron Age, people would tend to live in round houses; that is houses whose walls were made of wattle and daub, rafters of rough timber and a deep thatch. There was no chimney or flue at the centre for two reasons; firstly a hole would have made the fire in the central fireplace very lively with sparks prone to setting the thatch on fire; secondly, because the smoke from that reasonably inefficient fire wafted upwards and prevented or killed vermin wanting to destroy the thatch. Wattle and daub is great for many reasons but it’s not waterproof. To solve this, the thatch used to hang considerably further out than the thatch and come to within a couple of feet of the ground. The rain would therefore run down the thatch and drip all around the round hose. This led to a channel all around the house being made by the water. Then came those damn Romans. There appears to be no evidence that the Romans used gutters as a norm. It’s a supposition that some buildings had brick-made gutters but widely accepted that rain water was collected for bathing purposes. The buildings of the rich and powerful in the Middle Ages were made of stone, many with slate or river stone roofs. Some of these buildings had stone gutters, some had wooden but many seem to have had none. The middle classes (I.e. not the very rich but not the very poor; a gentleman farmer or yeoman as examples), certainly where timber was in reasonably plentiful supply, would have timber framed buildings with the infills made from wattle and daub or brick (but not brick used as a structural element). Gutters were made from a hardwood (oak, beech or elm) and consisted, as Brent said, of two planks nailed together and hung out from the building with iron brackets. All quite inefficient. In parts of the UK where timber wasn’t in such plentiful availability (E.g. the West Country) cob houses were built and continued to be built for centuries afterwards. Cob is a mixture of just about everything - mud, straw, dung. To avoid the water issue, cob houses had a stone or brick lower course; then cob; then brick or the like at the top. Many of these houses survive today - so it was an incredibly good method of construction providing you kept the feet and the head waterproof. Where you see coloured cob, that would have been made using local ingredients. Maybe the colour of the clay or, in the case of pink houses, it was the blood of slaughtered animals used as the dye. The word eavesdropper started in this period. Many Tudor houses had their first floor jutting out beyond the ground floor and were built, certainly in towns, very near to each other. Water would fall down the thatch or clay tiles and drop from the eaves. The word eavesdrop then evolved into meaning someone who could, because of the proximity of the eaves of one house to another, listen into conversations held next door. All through history there is a divide between houses of the rich down to houses of the poor. When well designed buildings really became popular (Late Tudor, early Stuart onwards), the rich were designed houses without the embarrassment of having things on show that spoiled the aesthetic. Gutters and down pipes were two such items that could be hidden internally; unfortunately, common folk living nearby and spoiling the views from the Manor House were also found to be less than desirable;whole villages were just turfed out. The Industrial Revolution brought about the widespread use of cast iron gutters and down pipes. That continued to be the predominant material for the manufacture of gutters and down pipes right until the late 50’s. The Victorians, well, they would, wouldn’t they, produced highly decorative cast iron hoppers etc. which are much valued today. Then plastic came in to dominate the market. I had a house in the 1980’s which had beautiful cast iron gutters; I say beautiful because they looked lovely but they bombed as a way to carry rain water away. They had corroded and were probably always too small for the area of roof that they serviced. I had to replace them. Cast iron gutters were horrifically expensive plus I would have had to strengthen some rafters to take the huge weight of iron. So, plastic gutters; a fraction of the price; very lightweight; easy for me to install. Shame on me. Today, I would suggest that 95% minimum of residential houses being built have plastic gutters. The soffit and fascia boards are mostly plastic too. When you focus upon them, they are really ugly but I think we have become so accustomed to seeing every house with black plastic gutters, that we are immune to the aesthetic. For our barn conversion, we need deep-flow gutters and downpipes. We have a choice of semi-round or semi-round; we have a limited choice of colours and we have either aluminium or plastic - although we could have cast iron if we won the lottery. The aluminium and plastic guttering looks exactly the same as each other. A decision to be made
I have a Historic Queen Ann with original wood gutters. They have been sealed over the years by previous owners to prevent wood rot. I would love to replace them, but keep the architectural integrity. Any suggestions?
Is there a reason why you wouldn't just get them working again. If the previous owner covered them up, they may still be in good shape. You can still buy wood gutters FYI. Good luck
Thanks Brent much needed topic I'll suggest Audels carpenters and Builders guide number 4 page 1,156. Box cornice with built-in gutter Added note on downspouts : keep close to wall even if cutting brick is required. Nice upgrade! thanks
What a great topic. The profiled gutter is known as a K- style gutter. 1. I have been looking at galvanized steel which can be painted/ powder coated and fiberglass gutters that mimic wood both which I think are promising options. 2. What should do at a cornice return? Should the gutter end or make the 90 degree turn around the cornice? If the gutter is cut off flush with the gable end you will see the flush blunt end of the gutter with a cap on it. I don't think that is optimal. 3. Should dormer roofs have gutters? That is a pretty small roof for its own gutter. But if yes, how do you route the downspout? There is no good way to run it other than to let it drain onto the roof which again is not optimal.
All great questions. I'm going to dig into this further. There is a lot to unpack. Thanks for your insights. I hadn't heard the term K-gutter in our market. Thanks.
For a new build with the look of a modest (shotgun maybe) cottage from the 1920s/'30s, could effective water management be done without gutters to keep an open-rafter exterior?
@BrentHull thanks for the growing library of helpful content! With a gutter integrated into the eave, I guess you don't have a pitch on the gutter? I worry about getting the waterproofing right!
Great Content and immensely valuable information. I have a 1892 Dutch Colonial, originally the house did not have gutters over the years the house got K style gutters and they’re awful and don’t work. Any suggestions on a possible gutter style or best to get rid of them all together? Thank you in advance from the Jersey Shore.
I would start with good historic precedent in your area. Are there other 1892 houses that have a good gutter design. Start by matching those. Also, historic photos may show what was originally used. That would be another good clue. Good luck. Thx.
Brent. Thank you so much for sharing this. I’ve been trying to determine the best way to present water mitigation options to clients. My go-to is no gutter at all, but these options are perfect for what we do with clients. When you present this information to clients, is it an already understood part of your work, or do you have to fight for better options on each detail with clients?
Genuinely always a pleasure hearing you speak. I think my favourite gutter and downpipe I've ever seen has too be the house in I think it was Boston with the invisible downpipes and it fell to a drain below. The lead copper you showed looked the business aswel. All I ever get to work with for guttering is plastic with the choice of black, white, brown or grey and round, square or ogee lol. Your right it's not something done to look good anymore it's just a gutter. Says alot about the modern designers. Keep up the good work Sir.
Is there's a book were we can choose the right gutter for old homes? Lots of companies have offered their services the problem is the gutters are for modern homes. I need to learn a lot regarding this subject.
I think copying the past is the best solution. I would find historic houses in your city and be a student of their details. Check out gutters and downspouts. You will learn a lot and make better decisions. Thanks for your comments.
Will you be doing any videos on how to implement boxed in gutters? Is it possible to do if also doing exterior insulation? What about if trying to do the "monopoly house" insulation rafter cut off? It would be interesting to know if historic details can be used alongside new building science techniques!
I cannot believe I never noticed gutters mimicking the cornice! What's also interesting is that many homes have none of the other molding components but have that detail on the gutter. It's a detail worth getting right. Great video!
So what if the home already has a correct cornice? If you put on a k- type gutter you would have two cymas. Or do you leave out the cyma and put a k gutter in it's place? A cross sectional model would help.
I'll need to dig into it further. It's done wrong so often that there are a bunch of problems to overcome. I'm about to do a collection of videos on exterior details. I'll make sure I include the cornice and gutter to the group. Thanks!
That could be nice, but try explaining to the client, the builder or the archictect, how it would be nicer to endanger your whole building to make the gutter look a little better. It's functional as you say. It shouldn't be integrated with the structure or trim.
Building the gutter back into the rafter ends, as you are demonstrating, creates a more sophisticated visual, but at the same time a substantially higher risk of water damages into the soffit should the gutter become impaired by ice or by foliage debris.
Split fascias, as we called that style of gutter installation, became undesirable after about WWII, when the full fascia, one piece flat board became the norm.
Less labor intensive installation and a better chance of dumping the gutter overflow outside the face of the soffit.
At 73 years old, and a lifelong carpenter in the Boston housing arena, I worked on all of the generations of the gutter/ soffit iterations.
Yes, agreed but an historic precedent most carpenters don't know about today. Thx for sharing.
I can only speak about my experiences in the UK. Going back to the Iron Age, people would tend to live in round houses; that is houses whose walls were made of wattle and daub, rafters of rough timber and a deep thatch. There was no chimney or flue at the centre for two reasons; firstly a hole would have made the fire in the central fireplace very lively with sparks prone to setting the thatch on fire; secondly, because the smoke from that reasonably inefficient fire wafted upwards and prevented or killed vermin wanting to destroy the thatch. Wattle and daub is great for many reasons but it’s not waterproof. To solve this, the thatch used to hang considerably further out than the thatch and come to within a couple of feet of the ground. The rain would therefore run down the thatch and drip all around the round hose. This led to a channel all around the house being made by the water.
Then came those damn Romans. There appears to be no evidence that the Romans used gutters as a norm. It’s a supposition that some buildings had brick-made gutters but widely accepted that rain water was collected for bathing purposes. The buildings of the rich and powerful in the Middle Ages were made of stone, many with slate or river stone roofs. Some of these buildings had stone gutters, some had wooden but many seem to have had none.
The middle classes (I.e. not the very rich but not the very poor; a gentleman farmer or yeoman as examples), certainly where timber was in reasonably plentiful supply, would have timber framed buildings with the infills made from wattle and daub or brick (but not brick used as a structural element). Gutters were made from a hardwood (oak, beech or elm) and consisted, as Brent said, of two planks nailed together and hung out from the building with iron brackets. All quite inefficient. In parts of the UK where timber wasn’t in such plentiful availability (E.g. the West Country) cob houses were built and continued to be built for centuries afterwards. Cob is a mixture of just about everything - mud, straw, dung. To avoid the water issue, cob houses had a stone or brick lower course; then cob; then brick or the like at the top. Many of these houses survive today - so it was an incredibly good method of construction providing you kept the feet and the head waterproof. Where you see coloured cob, that would have been made using local ingredients. Maybe the colour of the clay or, in the case of pink houses, it was the blood of slaughtered animals used as the dye.
The word eavesdropper started in this period. Many Tudor houses had their first floor jutting out beyond the ground floor and were built, certainly in towns, very near to each other. Water would fall down the thatch or clay tiles and drop from the eaves. The word eavesdrop then evolved into meaning someone who could, because of the proximity of the eaves of one house to another, listen into conversations held next door.
All through history there is a divide between houses of the rich down to houses of the poor. When well designed buildings really became popular (Late Tudor, early Stuart onwards), the rich were designed houses without the embarrassment of having things on show that spoiled the aesthetic. Gutters and down pipes were two such items that could be hidden internally; unfortunately, common folk living nearby and spoiling the views from the Manor House were also found to be less than desirable;whole villages were just turfed out.
The Industrial Revolution brought about the widespread use of cast iron gutters and down pipes. That continued to be the predominant material for the manufacture of gutters and down pipes right until the late 50’s. The Victorians, well, they would, wouldn’t they, produced highly decorative cast iron hoppers etc. which are much valued today.
Then plastic came in to dominate the market. I had a house in the 1980’s which had beautiful cast iron gutters; I say beautiful because they looked lovely but they bombed as a way to carry rain water away. They had corroded and were probably always too small for the area of roof that they serviced. I had to replace them. Cast iron gutters were horrifically expensive plus I would have had to strengthen some rafters to take the huge weight of iron. So, plastic gutters; a fraction of the price; very lightweight; easy for me to install. Shame on me.
Today, I would suggest that 95% minimum of residential houses being built have plastic gutters. The soffit and fascia boards are mostly plastic too. When you focus upon them, they are really ugly but I think we have become so accustomed to seeing every house with black plastic gutters, that we are immune to the aesthetic. For our barn conversion, we need deep-flow gutters and downpipes. We have a choice of semi-round or semi-round; we have a limited choice of colours and we have either aluminium or plastic - although we could have cast iron if we won the lottery. The aluminium and plastic guttering looks exactly the same as each other. A decision to be made
@Bill Ferrero thank you. Although I’m not sure I would like that for an epitaph “here lies a gutter expert”
Agreed. Great perspective
Thanks as always. I hope you are well. Have a Merry Christmas.
I would think that for a smaller home/structure, gutter design is even more important to avoid overwhelming the eve and cornice features.
Absolutely. It should be a detail we manage better. Thanks for watching.
I have a Historic Queen Ann with original wood gutters. They have been sealed over the years by previous owners to prevent wood rot. I would love to replace them, but keep the architectural integrity. Any suggestions?
Is there a reason why you wouldn't just get them working again. If the previous owner covered them up, they may still be in good shape. You can still buy wood gutters FYI. Good luck
Maybe the question should be why do modern mouldings look like gutter.
Great point! haha. Thanks.
Thanks Brent much needed topic
I'll suggest Audels carpenters and Builders guide number 4
page 1,156. Box cornice with built-in gutter
Added note on downspouts : keep close to wall even if cutting brick is required.
Nice upgrade! thanks
Thanks for sharing! Great catch in the Audel's book, I really appreciate you highlighting that. Thanks!!
What a great topic. The profiled gutter is known as a K- style gutter.
1. I have been looking at galvanized steel which can be painted/ powder coated and fiberglass gutters that mimic wood both which I think are promising options.
2. What should do at a cornice return? Should the gutter end or make the 90 degree turn around the cornice? If the gutter is cut off flush with the gable end you will see the flush blunt end of the gutter with a cap on it. I don't think that is optimal.
3. Should dormer roofs have gutters? That is a pretty small roof for its own gutter. But if yes, how do you route the downspout? There is no good way to run it other than to let it drain onto the roof which again is not optimal.
All great questions. I'm going to dig into this further. There is a lot to unpack. Thanks for your insights. I hadn't heard the term K-gutter in our market. Thanks.
Finally, I found this video, and it answered a lot of questions.😊
Nice. THx.
9:59 - THAT is the ultimate architectural atrocity. it should have gone inside that column. Water is the main enemy and should always be in focus.
Agreed. Thanks.
For a new build with the look of a modest (shotgun maybe) cottage from the 1920s/'30s, could effective water management be done without gutters to keep an open-rafter exterior?
Agreed. Thanks.
@BrentHull thanks for the growing library of helpful content! With a gutter integrated into the eave, I guess you don't have a pitch on the gutter? I worry about getting the waterproofing right!
Yep, that is the challenge. Thx.
Great Content and immensely valuable information. I have a 1892 Dutch Colonial, originally the house did not have gutters over the years the house got K style gutters and they’re awful and don’t work. Any suggestions on a possible gutter style or best to get rid of them all together? Thank you in advance from the Jersey Shore.
I would start with good historic precedent in your area. Are there other 1892 houses that have a good gutter design. Start by matching those. Also, historic photos may show what was originally used. That would be another good clue. Good luck. Thx.
Brent. Thank you so much for sharing this. I’ve been trying to determine the best way to present water mitigation options to clients. My go-to is no gutter at all, but these options are perfect for what we do with clients.
When you present this information to clients, is it an already understood part of your work, or do you have to fight for better options on each detail with clients?
Thanks, I'm usually fighting and working through each detail. Cheers.
Genuinely always a pleasure hearing you speak. I think my favourite gutter and downpipe I've ever seen has too be the house in I think it was Boston with the invisible downpipes and it fell to a drain below. The lead copper you showed looked the business aswel. All I ever get to work with for guttering is plastic with the choice of black, white, brown or grey and round, square or ogee lol. Your right it's not something done to look good anymore it's just a gutter. Says alot about the modern designers. Keep up the good work Sir.
Thanks so much. I appreciate you watching and commenting. Merry Christmas.
Merry Christmas to you and your family aswel bud from me and mine
How can I find the cornice detail drawings shown in this video?
Old books. Radford's construction details is one.
what is correct for a craftsman? simple and square??
It obviously depends on the eave of your particular house. I would still opt for round. Because of historic precedent.
Won’t your facia nomenclature be out of level to shed the water?
No, but I'm going to dig into it further on upcoming videos. THanks.
Loved this one, and a follow up would be great! Very neat detail and explains why a lot of gutters look like an afterthought
Thanks for watching!
Is there's a book were we can choose the right gutter for old homes? Lots of companies have offered their services the problem is the gutters are for modern homes. I need to learn a lot regarding this subject.
I think copying the past is the best solution. I would find historic houses in your city and be a student of their details. Check out gutters and downspouts. You will learn a lot and make better decisions. Thanks for your comments.
Great video! What do you suggest for a rounded porch on a Queen Anne cottage?
Custom made gutters will work. A sheet metal show can craft it to your radius. Good luck.
I never knew gutters were essential. Thanks for teaching us. ❤️
You are so welcome!
That was super interesting and informative. Thanks Brett!
Glad you liked it! Thanks!
I've noticed gutters do look like moulding! Thanks for the cool video 👊
Thanks for watching!
Will you be doing any videos on how to implement boxed in gutters? Is it possible to do if also doing exterior insulation? What about if trying to do the "monopoly house" insulation rafter cut off? It would be interesting to know if historic details can be used alongside new building science techniques!
Great comment. I'll be exploring exterior details next, I'll look into it. Thanks,
@@BrentHull Yes, would love to see construction detail for boxed in gutters for new home construction. Not clear to me how to do it.
Thank you Brent!
Thanks for watching.
I cannot believe I never noticed gutters mimicking the cornice! What's also interesting is that many homes have none of the other molding components but have that detail on the gutter.
It's a detail worth getting right. Great video!
So what if the home already has a correct cornice? If you put on a k- type gutter you would have two cymas. Or do you leave out the cyma and put a k gutter in it's place? A cross sectional model would help.
I agree, these things matter. Thanks for watching.
I'll need to dig into it further. It's done wrong so often that there are a bunch of problems to overcome. I'm about to do a collection of videos on exterior details. I'll make sure I include the cornice and gutter to the group. Thanks!
That could be nice, but try explaining to the client, the builder or the archictect, how it would be nicer to endanger your whole building to make the gutter look a little better. It's functional as you say. It shouldn't be integrated with the structure or trim.
Thanks.