In the heat of the Battle of Saipan in 1944, Marine Corps General Holland Smith made a bold move by relieving Infantry General Ralph Smith of his command. This decision did more than spark controversy, could it have threatened the very Army-Marine unity that was so pivotal to securing victory?
My ex's uncle Bob fought with the 27th Infantry Division on Saipan. All he told me was that they never, ever took prisoners. He was shot in the back, apparently by a Japanese machine gun round, and the doctors refused to take it out because it was embedded so close to the spine they feared leaving him paralyzed. He worked for the Phoenix, Arizona post office when I met him in 1991. People should take into consideration how many Japanese soldiers were killed by the army and marines on Saipan, 29,000! It was one colossal slaughter. Period. Lee Marvin, the famous actor, was a marine in their 4th Division on Saipan and was badly wounded there, spending more than a year recovering before being invalided out of the corps. Of the 250 or so men in Marvin's unit, only about five survived the war. Being in the army or marines in the Pacific was nigh on a death sentence, and for by far the vast majority of the Japanese it actually _was_ a death sentence.
My uncle, dad's brother, was with the first several waves of Marines on Guadalcanal. He once was visiting and my mother had beans simmering in the stove The lid popped on the pot of beans, causing uncle Billy to dive under the coffee table. My mother talked to him and calmed him down. He died at 52 of a stroke, doctors say the cause was likely due to the stress from the hell of years long battle.
@@WLBarton4466 A friend of mine and her husband escaped from Czechoslovakia in the early 1980s and came to Calgary where I live. Her father had been forced into the German army but he deserted while in Italy and made it back home through his own ingenuity. But he died in his 50s. Miraslava, my friend, says it was due to all the stress he suffered under the Nazis and then the communists in the 1940s and 50s. The pastor of my local church is from Finland and was born there in 1944. His dad and the whole family came to Canada in the 1940s but he died in 1970 at the age of 50 of a heart attack. His dad had been in the Finnish army fighting the Russians during the Winter War. The stress built up behind the scenes, as with your uncle.
In spite of Holland Smith's actions, the interservice rivalry between the U.S. Army and the USMC was nothing compared to the rivalry between the IJN and the IJA.
-The IJN and IJA were basically two separate countries fighting the same war, allied - each with airplanes, ships and a ground troops. They did not even tell each other about their defeats until much later. -The Italians were more fragmented, but seemed to have less infighting - at least not that i heard of. Italy forces were the Royal Navy (Regia Marina), the Royal Air Force (Regia Aeronautica), the Royal Customs Guards (Regio Guardia di Finanza), Royal Army (Regio Esercito) with under their control but separated - the Fascist Militia (Milizia Volontaria per la Sicurezza Nazionale-MVSN) or Black Shirsts (Camicie Nere-CCNN). There was also the colonial troops under the Army, which were very bad. The Air Forces lack of training pre war was a major problem and a source of friendly fire friction. -The Germans were also fragmented into: the air force (Luftwaffe), the navy (Kriegsmarine), and the army (Heer) and the Waffen SS (Schutzstaffel) . There was some conflict between the SS and the army, and the Luftwaffe was kind of independent in missions at first.
Holland Smith was barred from the surrender ceremonies on the USS Missouri. At first it was thought to be an oversight but when fellow Marine generals appealed, they received a hard no from Nimitz and Washington.
Actuall no. Wasn't Mac's doing. It was more Nimitz and Army brass with their personal grudges. Mac and his staff probably neer crossed paths with Smith.
@@THEZEKER1964 Thanks for clarification. It makes you realise what a core 'skill' diplomacy is is a senior officer... as important as tactical nous or ability with logistics. Men like Eisenhower, Alexander, Mountbatten might not have been the greatest field commanders. But they kept complex organisations (mostly) working. Leaders who put ego before reason are (eventually) cancer to any organisation.
Former Marine here. Holland Smith was one of those guys who insulated himself from the real fighting, even though he had seen combat earlier in his career. It's like the CEO of a company that has no idea what his employees' work environment is and makes unrealistic demands. It might have been dangerous for him to visit the front, and I'm not talking about the Japanese.
@@ethanmcfarland8240 I think ex-marine is the term they object to, hence the use of "former-marine" to describe those who are no longer actively serving.
Good that you made this special episode. As an undergraduate, I gave a brief report on Saipan. My summary was the traditional one: USMC doctrine is cover ground, mop up later. Army doctrine is don’t advance until you have secured any enemy pockets within your perimeter. Hence the conflict. In fact, I often use this as an illustrative example in business management of the challenges of collaboration across functions within an organization that are culturally different, such as Marketing and Manufacturing. It’s good to hear alternative views of this bit of history.
How many Marketing guys turn up at the factory to tell production that they are ALL stupid. lazy and reponsible for all the Co's probs, but he and the salesmen should get all the credit for "fixing" things? Being marketing he wouild also claim, sales guys deserve more money, a usual claim by the self promoters. Equally, how many marketing guys would escape such a "factory visit" with all of their limbs still attached? Divisional disagreements rarely involve the abuse level this Hilland guy gave, and in most co's, unless he was Board level , thats a sacking offense (PS I am 30 yrs a salesguy, currently a Board member and I know very well how self important we can often appear.. and all too often are!!)
Super interesting episode! As an army veteran from the Vietnam-era, I am quite familiar with the inter-service rivalries, but this was way beyond that. I am glad Ralph Smith had the last laugh by being the last WWII General to pass on to his reward. Holland didn't get to witness the surrender on the USS Missouri because by then, his reputation as a dick was well known. His nickname "Howlin' Mad" was on point!
Thanks for sharing your perspective! It's true, the dynamics between Holland and Ralph Smith were intense. "Howlin' Mad" was certainly a fitting nickname for Holland.
Ironically there were 3 Medals of Honor awarded in the Battle of Saipan. All were awarded to Army Soldiers from the 27th. Pvt Thomas Baker, Lt. Col William O’Brien, and Cpt. Benjamin Salomon. The 27th has a total of 14 Medals of Honor awarded to its men
Valor awards, I have determined, isn't the best method of evaluating heroism across units. If you look at the battle records of James Megellas versus Audie Murphy, you wouldn't find much difference in heroic deeds. But looking at their valor awards you would ascertain that Murphy was much more heroic. However, the main difference was that Megellas was a paratrooper and the Airborne was not as free as line infantry units in handing out valor awards. Megellas would have earned more than one medal of honor if he were in the 3rd Infantry Div instead of the 82nd Airborne.
@@michaelmatthias9495 Sorry, but not sorry. WWII Airborne units limited the number of valor awards they were going to give out. What might be DSC level heroism in the 3rd Inf Div was expected normal expectation of a paratrooper in the 82nd and 101st.
My ex's uncle Bob fought with the 27th Infantry Division on Saipan. All he told me was that they never, ever took prisoners. He was shot in the back, apparently by a Japanese machine gun round, and the doctors refused to take it out because it was embedded so close to the spine they feared leaving him paralyzed. He worked for the Phoenix, Arizona post office when I met him in 1991. People should take into consideration how many Japanese soldiers were killed by the army and marines on Saipan. 29,000! It was one colossal slaughter. Period. Lee Marvin, the famous actor, was a marine in their 4th Division on Saipan and was badly wounded there, spending more than a year recovering before being invalided out of the corps. Of the 250 or so men in Marvin's unit, only about five survived the war. Being in the army or marines in the Pacific was nigh on a death sentence, and for by far the vast majority of the Japanese it actually _was_ a death sentence.
its funny how Lee Marvin was a decorated scout sniper yet he always played goofy tv dads. its like that fake meme about mr Rogers fighting in Vietnam its insane how many men went from being Achilles as a 20 year old to becoming Ned Flanders as a Adult.
@@jerrysmooth24 HUH??! Lee Marvin almost ALWAYS played "The Heavy" in his movie roles. Two of his most famous movie roles were The Dirty Dozen and The Big Red One.
It's good to see that history has vindicated Ralph Smith and Army servicemen who fought on Saipan, despite Holland Smith's best efforts to revise the narrative. It's also worth considering, in regards to the 27th's situation on the island, that in addition to not having complete control over its own units it was already short 5,000 men compared to the two Marine divisions which both had an assault strength of 21,000 troops. It's no wonder then that the Army couldn't rapidly overcome the strongest Japanese positions in the center of the island with so few men to provide the same support that the Marines had on the flanks; and I believe that had any other Marine General been in command this would have been recognized and remedied without throwing Army associates under the bus. It really was just a "Holland Smith" problem at the end of the day. McManus's "Island Infernos" is an outstanding book by the way. Strongly recommended to anyone interested in the Pacific War.
The services did work together pretty well on Peleliu and Okinawa. When the Marines got their noses bloodied on Peleliu, the Army helped mop up the rest of the islands defenses to help finally secure the island after the bitter 2 months of fighting. Which was infamously declared it would be done in 3 days. And on Okinawa when the 27th infantry devision was basically battered from the breakthrough of the Machinato line. The 1st marine devision had their back. It wasn't the marine corps and Army that had beef, it was Holland himself.
It seems the 27th inf.div. was the Cinderella and the Marines divisions the stepsisters encouraged by an ugly stepmother whose name was Holland "Howling "Smith.
Holland Smith feels like a living caricature of every negative Marine officer stereotype. Biased against other branches, refuses to listen, acts on ignorance, and outright lies rather than admit his own mistakes.
@@StegoKing Yeah, an under strength unit facing poor terrain and determined resistance with superior officers with incorrect intelligence and a preexisting bias against them, are cowards. Give me a break.
I have read a lot about the Marines and their battles in WWII. I have learned that Gen Holland Smith was not well liked by his peers or subordinates. At Tarawa where he was in command he stayed at HQ on the ship only going ashore on the 3rd day when the fighting was practically over. Again he was in overall command at Iwo Jima and demonstrated the same M.O.
My grandfather was on Siapan with the 27th when this happened. He said very few things about the war. He would start to tear, look up at the ceiling, and not be able to say anymore. One of the few things he did say was while on the island he was nearly killed by a mortar round when it hit the edge of his foxhole. A part of his bandolier which was laying on the edge of the hole wound up in a tree above him, seen the next morning. He saw a friend get his arm severed in the heavy fighting. He also said that he witnessed a US soldier purposely kill an elderly male civilian. He said he wanted to shoot that fellow serviceman. He later went on to Okinawa and fought on the west coast of the island, charging some of the Japanese defense lines there.
You could do another special episode about the REAL war in the Pacific: The fight between the sailors of the USS Washington and the USS South Dakota. They eventually had to stagger their shore leaves so that they were never on the beach together.
You're right about the men of the U.S.S. Washington and the U.S.S. South Dakota, but from that same series of battles, the crew and ship of the heavy cruiser U.S.S. San Francisco were lionized as heroes back home ~ especially in the city for which they were named - and they and crew of a number of other ships got into it pretty heavily on shore leave. The same phenomenon occurred in the ETO with units from the 82nd and 101st Airborne Divisions. If there were no enemy soldiers around to mix it up with, they'd go after one another in bars on leave. The higher-ups quickly learned to stagger their leave times and locations so that the Screaming Eagles and All-Americans wouldn't run into one another in town. In this case, neither division did anything wrong; they were just fighting because they were paratroopers proud of their unit and full of p*ss and vinegar.
My grandfather, although from Louisiana, was drafted and assigned to the New York State National Guard and shot through the hip at Saipan. Man, I wish I could ask him about this today!
Once they become federalized, they’re nationalized. I think Thomas Baker was from another state too but they placed a lot of guys from other states in there though.
Simon Buckner mentioned here was the son of Simon Bolivar Buckner, a West Point graduate who fought in the Mexican-American war for the United States of America and in the US Civil War for the Confederate States of America.
Interestingly Buckner is also not the only son of an officer that fought in the American Civil War. Douglas MacArthur was the son of Arthur MacArthur Jr, who has a junior officer fighting for the Union during the American Civil War, was a recipent of the Medal of Honor for valor during the battle of Missionary Ridge. Arthur MacArthur would eventually become a general as well, albeit after the civil war, and commanded a brigade during the Spanish-American War and a division during the Phillipine-American War.
Simon Bolivar Buckner…I’m sorry, but the irony of a filibustering, slave-owning gringo freebooter bearing the name of one of Latin America’s greatest leaders is just too much.
Huge shoutout to Gen Vandegrift who undoubtedly united the USMC and Army commands at Guadalcanal, the Americal Division and 1st Marine Division worked together to defend Henderson Field against IJA attacks and probes.
A coward soldier can be a sign of many things. A coward general like Holland Smith, who won't even have the courage and dignity to dismiss his subordinate himself, is a sign of incompetence and deep personal issues.
He sounds like he has classic "Little Dog Syndrome" - terrified of all the big dogs, it yaps nonstop to show how tough, etc. When the fighting starts, it tends to hide a fair bit. These are the real cowards, hiding behind status to abuse those under his command, those he unfairly denigrates with self serving insults. Compare the treatment of this Marine to the way the Army treated Parron say - I know he did slap a guy for being as he put it " a coward", but this guys called 1000s cowards, held them responsible for the death of "Brave" Marines and kept repeating it. He gets promoted - then repeats the lies again (remind you of anyone in ther news lately?) Different treatment for the Prima Donna ballerinas of the sailing troopsot seems
Perhaps you've done so already, but a piece on the very differing styles of Gen. Rupertus (First Marines) and Gen. Mueller (81st Div.) on Peleliu would be an interesting continuation of the Marine/Army story in the Pacific war.
I am a Vietnam Veteran Marine, older brother US Navy prior to Vietnam, younger brother US Army post Vietnam & cousin in the Air Force at the exact time I was "in country". I would never besmirch the service my "Blood"! I have a very large extended family & it covers all the services back as far as the Civil & Revolutionary Wars. The only dispute between the services should be between Garrison troops at the EM Club after to much beer. Semper Fi
This sad chapter in flawed leadership illustrates why Holland Smith's nickname was "Howling Mad". I've served in several joint billets and never encountered behavior even remotely like Smith's. It is incredibly petty and unprofessional, and it is painfully obvious he was promoted beyond his abilities as a joint force commander. If there is a silver lining to this story, it is that our military learned a bitter lesson from this experience when selecting future joint leaders.
You should read on what the Marines did to slander and disgrace US Army soldiers after the Battle of Chosin in the Korean War. No Army units should ever be under the command of a Marine officer.
@@hyphenlife I suspect any slandering would have been on the part of senior officers, not regular jar heads or grunts. Such is the nature of turf battles and limited rice bowls (funding). With regard to the Chosin Reservoir, there was one Army regimental combat team assigned to guard the east flank of the Marines. The 31st Regimental Combat Team (Task Force MacLean) was spread out too far and lacked adequate communication between units and with the Marines, so when the Chinese divisions attacked, it took a serious mauling. Neither Army or Marine senior leadership initially recognized or acknowledged the seriousness of the situation, and this failure extended to the 31st's leadership (COL MacLean and LTC Faith). They were ordered by MG Almond, X Corps commander, to advance instead of withdraw, which only worsened an already desperate situation. In the end what was left of Task Force MacLean was largely destroyed, it's commander captured (subsequently dying of wounds) and his deputy, LTC Faith, was later killed, at which point command and control disintegrated. Of the 3200 men (including 700 ROKs) who comprised the task force, only 1000 soldiers reached Marine lines. I have read disparaging remarks about the Army failing to cover its own flanks, sticking to roads instead of holding high ground, leaving equipment, dead, and dying soldiers behind, etc. The Marines did fare better in this battle because they were more integrated and supportive of each other, thus they were able to retreat with their equipment, their wounded, and their dead. However, postwar analysis showed that Task Force MacLean/Faith seriously mauled the Chinese and delayed the Chinese advance long enough for the Marines to organize an effective defense. I don't know if the Marine Corps ever acknowledged the magnificent sacrifice of the 31st, but it is well documented. During WWII there was an Army regiment which was detached to the Marines and provided support to them through several island hopping campaigns. I wish I could remember which unit it was, but I recall they were "adopted" by the Marines as one of their own. I'm recounting these facts because I have served with the Marines and with the Army (I'm Air Force), and while we poked good-natured fun at each other, I never experienced denigration from either service. Teamwork and professionalism were always the order of the day. Anyone who thinks otherwise does not appreciate the strengths each force brings to the table, nor do they belong in any service, regardless of rank and experience.
@@Paladin1873 for WW2, I think you’re referring to one of the tank battalions from the 81st Infantry that got attached to support the USMC. Regarding TF Faith that got annihilated while holding up the Chinese offensive 6X their size for four nights, the Marine leadership ensured that the Army was omitted from the Presidential Citation. It took over 50 years for it to get fixed and for the survivors to have their reputation redeemed when they were well into their 80s. The Marines not only failed to acknowledge the sacrifice, they actively slandered it and prevented them from any recognition. The Marines were able to retreat more orderly as an entire division whereas the Army situation was chaotic as they were exponentially outnumbered. Lead to the Navy Chaplain making claims about soldiers dropping their rifles and running from the fight. Which will happen when you’re fighting to the last bullet against an overwhelming force. Actual Chinese reports from the battle do more justice to those soldiers’ efforts than the Marine/Navy/Press spin. Unfortunately, like mentioned in this video, the mentality of the USMC leadership trickles down to their ranks.
@@hyphenlife The Army royally screwed up repeatedly in Korea, mostly thanks to MacArthur. His treatment of the Aussies in WWII was also despicable. None of this excuses bad behavior on the part of Marine leaders or any other service leaders. My point is that it was not this way with every unit, nor was it ever as bad as the horrid relationship between the Japanese Army and Navy. I think we've long outgrown such pettiness and now operate as a true joint force.
@@Paladin1873 you only have to go as far back as Fallujah to see we didn’t move past it. For whatever happened in Imperial Japan, the US Army and USMC problems have happened from WW1 to the Iraq War. And forbid there’s ever a new conflict in Asia, I can see more problems between the branches. I’m curious what MacArthur did to the Marines in WW2 though.
Okay, and while Holland Smith is clearly at fault here, his superiors let this harmful episode occur. This was ultimately an Army/Navy beef. There were admirals involved with this who were even bigger dicks than Holland Smith (who really should have been court-martialed for this.)
Post war, the revolt of the admirals is going to occur because of this rivalry. In other countries, the rivalry is way more severe. King and Nimitz have to get credit for realizing that they need to work with the army to win the war. After the war, the participants can accuse each other, but in ww2, they need everyone to work together. Promoting a general out of combat is a smart move. It doesn't hurt the marines, and the army won't have an obstacle when in combat.
Wrong admirals were worried about navy part and they don't get taught about land fighting its a stubborn marine general vs army only Holland Smith should have been heald accountable
There were a lot of poisonous egos in the high ranks of the U.S. military. Army had Patton and MacArthur. The the Navy’s admirals almost lost whole battles in the pacific due to their egos or just not communicating with each other. Lucky for us the Japanese military was even more dysfunctional.
I was a friend for many years with a man who was a humble PFC in the sixth marine division for Okinawa. He had complete and total disdain for the 27th division. On the other hand he said the 77th division was highly respected. He told me to the front line marines often referred to them as “77th marines”
Enlisted Marines really had no reason to have disdain for the 27th, but unfortunately it was inculcated into them by Holland Smith and Marine war correspondents, even if the average Marine never fought with men from the 27th before (the 6th MD may have passed by them on Okinawa, but they never fought on the front line together)
@Belowbluewaterdiver I’m sorry but your friend sounds like an idiot. I truly appreciate him for his service, but refusing to talk to someone who served in the 27th is just plain stupid.
1. In WWI, the 4th Marine Brigade was commanded by Charles A. Doyen. Doyen was fired and sent home by Pershing, and died soon afterward. Holland Smith had been on Doyen’s staff, and held a grudge against the army ever after (despite Pershing’s having fired five army generals as well). 2. In William Manchester’s “Goodbye Darkness,” he relates the story of two army officers liaising with the Marines on Okinawa. Offended by the army officers’ dismissive remarks (including the term “bellhops), the Marines deliberately led the soldiers into an exposed position where they were guaranteed to be killed.
Please do a video on Thomas Baker and LTC Obrien of he 105th Infantry Regiment. Their Medal of Honors as a NYNGs man are still talked about. As a New York National Guardsmen who unit was assigned to the 1st Marines in Iraq. The marines are crazy if they think that the New Yorkers are yellow.
In 1950 during the Korean War, there was a great deal of tension between Army general Ed Almond (MacArthur's BFF who could do no wrong) and Marine General Oliver P. Smith. As it turns out that Smith's assessment that there were Chinese troops in North Korea in November-information that was deliberately downplayed or ignored by Almond-put Smith's forces in much better defensive positions, while Almonds hubris led the Army into a huge, bloody ambush.
It wasn't so much the hubris of General Almond, but that of his bosses, namely Supreme Commander General Douglas MacArthur and General Willoughby, MacA's intelligence officer - who insisted that there were no Chi-Coms inside Korea, and that Peking (Beijing) was not interested in entering the war. MacArthur, being CIC, a five-star general and the most-senior flag/general officer on duty in the U.S. military, was not the sort of man one contradicted, especially in public, if one wished to keep one's job. MacArthur was legendary for his devotion to his staff - "The Bataan Gang" - and they to him, and Almond, not being a member of that inner circle, was placed in a tough position. Publicly, he had to support the Supreme Commander, privately, too, to an extent, even if he harbored doubts about Willoughby's intelligence estimates. A Major General - a two-star - would have been just one more flag officer in a galaxy of them surrounding MacArthur and in the Pentagon. Via-a-vis Chi-Com intentions, Smith may have been correct, but his relatively junior rank and the fact that few other intelligence sources corroborated his - sealed the fate of his findings consigning them to obscurity when they might have made a difference. Just one more intelligence failure in a war full of them....
A far different time, but while in the Marines I was stationed on Oahu, Hawaii, 1978-81. One day another Marine and I were assigned to drive a truck from Kaneohe Marine Corps Air Station (now Kaneohe Marine Corps Base) to the Army facility Schofield Barracks. Before driving back, we were pleasantly surprised to find that we could have a beer in the Army's Enlisted Club during the day, as the Enlisted Club at our Marine base was not allowed to serve alcohol to us during the day (for good reason). On another occasion a few of has were sent over to Hickam Air Force Base, and were awed by the presence of beer vending machines in the barracks. On the other hand, upon hearing my description of my Marine NCO living quarters, my ex-Navy uncle (who was on ships in the 50's) replied sardonically that he was going to retire from his factory job and join the Marines in order to get some relaxation.
The late Dr. Benjamin Hazard was very critical of Holland Smith. Harry Gailey in his book HOWLIN MAD VS THE ARMY wrote a book which Dr. Hazard considered a vindication of Ralph Smith.
My father, A US Army Combat Engineer, fought along side the marines on both Guam And Okinawa. He was not impressed with their commanders. He witnessed so much useless waste of young men's lives during the fighting. If anyone was to get fired, it should have been Holland Smith.
My father was of the same opinion. He was an Army tank platoon commander, assigned to support the Marines, in Korea. Unnecessary sacrifice for the sake of bragging rights.
My dad said the same thing happened in Vietnam. He was in armored cav and they heard marines in combat over the radio and the asked for their location so they could bring in support, 7 ACAVS with a 50 and two 60s on each and 2 Sheridan tanks a lot of fire power, and the response they got was “fuck you this is a marine corps fight” and all were killed-like 40 guys. Completely unnecessary
Something to remember is that the Department of Navy was a cabinet level office. They didn't have a Secretary of Defense to go through. Having one person in charge of everyone makes them part of one team. The Joint Chiefs really works.
I can't believe someone who has visited trenches and field hospitals in a war zone like Saipan has the guts to call the men fighting there, an ENTIRE DIVISION, cowards. I also can't believe the entire article was published and no one on the magazine raised an eyebrow.
This video is the first I heard of this conflict btwn Gen. H. Smith and Gen. Smith. I have no I basis to form an opinion outside of this video. I will say, the alleged behavior of H. Smith while may be hard to believe, given what you said which is from a purely logical and ethical viewpoint, it's wholly believable/plausible. What ringed true to me, again this isn't any proof, is H. Smith wouldn't talk to Army Smith, and used an intermediary General. I've encountered old-school men a lot in my career (nothing military related). A lot of them, the complainers especially, tend to be incredibly passive aggressive, and when they try to undermine it is usually all "behind the back" of the targeted person.
Journalists. They were the same then as they are now. Complete scum of human beings with no morals or ethics. the Difference between then and now was the tools. If we had Twitter and TV during WW2, we would have lost the war. and Journalists would have gladly made propaganda films for the occupation forces for some Yen, or Franc.
@elbeto191291 he never went up to the front lines to see himself, he just took reports and just went by what he heard, and made judgments by what he heard in his command tent. He was a coward who never went front
You have to be a real coward to pull something like that. The fact Nimitz took the army’s side is telling as well. He knew H. Smith was a piece of shit. Completely unfit to lead at the level he was at. If other stories about him are true, unfit to lead in general. He was known for leading from the rear. Even with his own marines.
This was a good episode. I hope that when Indy does his Korean War series, he also addresses the story about the 1st Cavalry Division and whether or not it actually deserves the reputation that some tried to stick it with and that many still parrot today.
Thank you for this video! Things have never changed. I fought in Ramadi and Fallujah in 2003-04 as an Army infantryman only to see the Marines get ALL the credit for our kills.
Both branches do it and have done it before. It’s a pretty shitty thing, and sometimes can be downright dangerous, like what happened because of Saipan. That whole incident could have destroyed cohesion. That coward general should have gotten a court martial. Fuck that POS. You don’t talk shit about a unit that is chest deep in blood and guts while you’re safe on a ship miles away from the battle. That guy was a coward who should have been relieved of command long before. A lot of ignorant people think the second battle of Fallujah was solely marines. I totally understand an army vet of Fallujah feeling a certain way about that. However my drill sergeant was in Fallujah as well(1st Cav). He was wounded by rpg shrapnel. He had nothing but respect for marine grunts, probably the same way marine and army grunts who actually fought on Saipan had nothing but respect for each other.
Definitely impressive! Ralph Smith not only had a remarkable military career but also was a fellow at Stanford University's Hoover institution later in life, thanks for watching!
A wonderful historical coverage video thanks...the first time I heard there was hard criticism between army infantry division and marine infantry in saipan invading
The one thing the marines had that the Army did not was a P.I.O. - Public Information Officer. His job was to talk with the press and brag about the marines.
I had a great uncle who served in the Army Signal Corps in the pacific in WW II. Pop always said he couldn't tell if if it was the Japanese or the Marines that Uncle Dick hated worse.
I heard about this rivalry this past summer. When I checked out a book about the assault on saipan And it's sad that they got attacked like that because The twenty seventh was one of the main ones who helped contain the banzi attack
The marines even though their own branch are ran by the Navy. Remember at this time there is no Department of Defense or Joint Chiefs of Staff. It is just the Department of Navy and the War Department.
Trust me, marines aren’t all that popular with sailors. In fact, historically, marines were distrusted by regular seamen because part of their job was keeping discipline aboard ships and protecting the officers against potential mutinies by the lower ranks.
Navy brass knew the marines weren't a large enough force to defeat the Japanese, and they needed the armies man power also. They weren't going to let some stupid general mess things up.
I think Nimitz already had a well informed opinion of H. Smith. Plus if I’m not mistaken, he was a level headed leader who knew it was best to put out fires created by incompetent subordinate leaders with overinflated egos. Kinda like Eisenhower in Europe. Ike had to keep Patton and Montgomery from clashing all the time. Luckily for us both men were good at it.
This mistrust between the Army and Marines carried over to Korea my father who served with the 2nd Infantry/38th Tank Company in 1951 to 1952 and was wounded on Old Baldy in 1952 could not stand the Marines and always maintained they were nothing but glory hounds and officers who did not give a damn about the lives of their men Not judging my self but all my Dads Army veteran friends had the same opinion
I was an army private stationed at El Toro Marine Base while I was working with army recruiters in the Los Angeles area area. I found no disrespect from the Marines when I was there. What's funny is in basic training I had a Marine corps drill sergeant that went army. And when I was an army reservist my reserve Base was camp Pendleton California. I have the utmost respect for Marines bet there are some that are brainwashed onto thinking that they are it.
Indy I can't tell you how much I enjoyed this episode. I love the idea of examining the relationships between American officers . Both inter-service and intrra-service. They were all strong-willed men. This was a fascinating episode. I hope you will explore more about these personal relationships.
When I was in airborne school at the former benning there were half a dozen marines attending. During the first jump they felt it was necessary to purposefully disobey our orders and cause their chutes to end up in the tree line. Why? To show how tough marines are. We just shook our heads and keep training.
As a former marine I can attest to the stubbornness and lack of intelligence of some marines. Although the Army is guilty as well of trying to prove they are tougher or better. A Sgt in my company probably one of the best marines in the battalion if not regiment and one of the most physically fit as well went to ranger school and the instructors failed him saying he didn’t do enough push ups because his form was wrong. That man slayed me and my fellow marines in many PTs and I know for a fact that he knows the correct form for push ups.
@@jackhames3874 seems they like to do it to marines specifically, he wasn’t the only one dropped from the course for that bs, lot of good in shape and squared away marines were dropped for the same shit.
In an earlier age, in an earlier army, Holland Smith’s words would’ve earned him a duel with Ralph Smith. They would’ve called it the Battle of the Smiths. Think on that.
A Marine CO stands and says we are going to take this objective. A voice in the back states, we took that objective last week. The CO responses, well command gave it to the Army to hold........
USMC General'Howling' Holland Smith refused to acknowledge the difficulties in terrain and stubborn resistance facing the 27th ID doggies and made General Ralph Smith as a scapegoat for his own bias and prejudice against the brave US Army soldiers of the 27th.
As a US Marine serving in Desert Storm, I had the honor of serving with US Army troops attached to us from the Tiger Brigade. They were squared away and good-to-go, and I would have gone through hell for any of them.
Excellent dive into the inter-service rivalry, but the footage was of Gen. Holland Smith, talking to Admiral Spruance, not General Jarman. They both wore the ancient tropical helmets but Spruance was very fit while Jarman was quite round.
In 1964 I was in college. A classmate had spent the Summer in USMC ROTC. When he came back in September, he was filled with hate toward the US Army, hatred obviously instilled during his Summer with the Marines. He was especially bitter about Army "cowardice" during the Chosin Reservoir fighting and Task Force Faith in particular. Years later Task Force Faith would be exonerated and credited for their courage. Task Force Faith prevented the Chinese from reaching Hagaru-Ri and completely cutting off the Marines but were essentially destroyed. The survivors who passed through Marine lines had fought against overwhelming odds and may have appeared to have run away but they hadn't. They fought until they had nothing left to fight with. A Navy Chaplin wrote a very unfair article about them which resulted in them being branded cowards. There are plenty of reports on youtube about Task Force Faith. WRT General Holland Smith, his animosity toward the Army was simply petty and wrong.
Such rivalries and even downright hostility between the branches of the US military still persist. Someone once said that the real enemy of the US Navy is the USAF, and the real enemy of the US Army is the USMC. Obviously an exaggeration, but not entirely inaccurate.
I m both salute to usmc and army bec my grandpa is a usmc and his bros were in navy and us army was serving in ww2 Usmc decipline Us army well equiped Thats what they say when i ask them when i was a kid
This is fascinating, but at the same time. I have to say: comparing the rivalries between the branches of the US military to the rivalries within the Japanese military is like comparing Yankees and Red Sox fans to Crips and Bloods, respectively.
When the bullets are flying you need to fight as one. After the fighting is over and the bullets have stopped can you go to the bar, drink and brag who is tougher.
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In the heat of the Battle of Saipan in 1944, Marine Corps General Holland Smith made a bold move by relieving Infantry General Ralph Smith of his command. This decision did more than spark controversy, could it have threatened the very Army-Marine unity that was so pivotal to securing victory?
Great video!
It's a damn shame when the egos of leaders mean more than the lives of the men they lead. God Bless the infantry.
My ex's uncle Bob fought with the 27th Infantry Division on Saipan. All he told me was that they never, ever took prisoners. He was shot in the back, apparently by a Japanese machine gun round, and the doctors refused to take it out because it was embedded so close to the spine they feared leaving him paralyzed. He worked for the Phoenix, Arizona post office when I met him in 1991. People should take into consideration how many Japanese soldiers were killed by the army and marines on Saipan, 29,000! It was one colossal slaughter. Period.
Lee Marvin, the famous actor, was a marine in their 4th Division on Saipan and was badly wounded there, spending more than a year recovering before being invalided out of the corps. Of the 250 or so men in Marvin's unit, only about five survived the war. Being in the army or marines in the Pacific was nigh on a death sentence, and for by far the vast majority of the Japanese it actually _was_ a death sentence.
My uncle, dad's brother, was with the first several waves of Marines on Guadalcanal.
He once was visiting and my mother had beans simmering in the stove
The lid popped on the pot of beans, causing uncle Billy to dive under the coffee table.
My mother talked to him and calmed him down.
He died at 52 of a stroke, doctors say the cause was likely due to the stress from the hell of years long battle.
@@WLBarton4466 A friend of mine and her husband escaped from Czechoslovakia in the early 1980s and came to Calgary where I live. Her father had been forced into the German army but he deserted while in Italy and made it back home through his own ingenuity. But he died in his 50s. Miraslava, my friend, says it was due to all the stress he suffered under the Nazis and then the communists in the 1940s and 50s.
The pastor of my local church is from Finland and was born there in 1944. His dad and the whole family came to Canada in the 1940s but he died in 1970 at the age of 50 of a heart attack. His dad had been in the Finnish army fighting the Russians during the Winter War. The stress built up behind the scenes, as with your uncle.
In spite of Holland Smith's actions, the interservice rivalry between the U.S. Army and the USMC was nothing compared to the rivalry between the IJN and the IJA.
True. The German Luftwaffe, Army, and Navy also had dysfunctional relations.
Agreed, how many plans over the decades despoiled due to their rivalry.
This helped contribute to them losing. A small factor but a factor nonetheless.
And we can be glad for that particular stupidity of leadership.
-The IJN and IJA were basically two separate countries fighting the same war, allied - each with airplanes, ships and a ground troops. They did not even tell each other about their defeats until much later.
-The Italians were more fragmented, but seemed to have less infighting - at least not that i heard of. Italy forces were the Royal Navy (Regia Marina), the Royal Air Force (Regia Aeronautica), the Royal Customs Guards (Regio Guardia di Finanza), Royal Army (Regio Esercito) with under their control but separated - the Fascist Militia (Milizia Volontaria per la Sicurezza Nazionale-MVSN) or Black Shirsts (Camicie Nere-CCNN). There was also the colonial troops under the Army, which were very bad. The Air Forces lack of training pre war was a major problem and a source of friendly fire friction.
-The Germans were also fragmented into: the air force (Luftwaffe), the navy (Kriegsmarine), and the army (Heer) and the Waffen SS (Schutzstaffel) . There was some conflict between the SS and the army, and the Luftwaffe was kind of independent in missions at first.
Holland Smith was barred from the surrender ceremonies on the USS Missouri. At first it was thought to be an oversight but when fellow Marine generals appealed, they received a hard no from Nimitz and Washington.
Presumably MacArthur had something to do with that? Finally something to like about Mac!
I didn't know that, but it does seem fair -- petty is as petty does
Actuall no. Wasn't Mac's doing. It was more Nimitz and Army brass with their personal grudges. Mac and his staff probably neer crossed paths with Smith.
@@THEZEKER1964 Thanks for clarification. It makes you realise what a core 'skill' diplomacy is is a senior officer... as important as tactical nous or ability with logistics. Men like Eisenhower, Alexander, Mountbatten might not have been the greatest field commanders. But they kept complex organisations (mostly) working.
Leaders who put ego before reason are (eventually) cancer to any organisation.
Holland Smith's exclusion speaks volumes about the behind-the-scenes politics. Thanks for watching!
Former Marine here. Holland Smith was one of those guys who insulated himself from the real fighting, even though he had seen combat earlier in his career. It's like the CEO of a company that has no idea what his employees' work environment is and makes unrealistic demands. It might have been dangerous for him to visit the front, and I'm not talking about the Japanese.
Don’t you guys not like the term “former” marine?
@@ethanmcfarland8240 I was always taught once a Marine, always a Marine, but I wanted to specify that I was no longer actively so.
Thank you for your service brother 🍻
@@ethanmcfarland8240 I think ex-marine is the term they object to, hence the use of "former-marine" to describe those who are no longer actively serving.
Good that you made this special episode. As an undergraduate, I gave a brief report on Saipan. My summary was the traditional one: USMC doctrine is cover ground, mop up later. Army doctrine is don’t advance until you have secured any enemy pockets within your perimeter. Hence the conflict. In fact, I often use this as an illustrative example in business management of the challenges of collaboration across functions within an organization that are culturally different, such as Marketing and Manufacturing.
It’s good to hear alternative views of this bit of history.
How many Marketing guys turn up at the factory to tell production that they are ALL stupid. lazy and reponsible for all the Co's probs, but he and the salesmen should get all the credit for "fixing" things? Being marketing he wouild also claim, sales guys deserve more money, a usual claim by the self promoters. Equally, how many marketing guys would escape such a "factory visit" with all of their limbs still attached? Divisional disagreements rarely involve the abuse level this Hilland guy gave, and in most co's, unless he was Board level , thats a sacking offense (PS I am 30 yrs a salesguy, currently a Board member and I know very well how self important we can often appear.. and all too often are!!)
And it’s great because both are wrong and correct depending upon the situation
*** both branches have changed their doctrine since
@@Cheeseatingjunlista, 😂
Well, the marines are great salesmen.
@@mgway4661GBO!
Super interesting episode! As an army veteran from the Vietnam-era, I am quite familiar with the inter-service rivalries, but this was way beyond that. I am glad Ralph Smith had the last laugh by being the last WWII General to pass on to his reward. Holland didn't get to witness the surrender on the USS Missouri because by then, his reputation as a dick was well known. His nickname "Howlin' Mad" was on point!
Thanks for sharing your perspective! It's true, the dynamics between Holland and Ralph Smith were intense. "Howlin' Mad" was certainly a fitting nickname for Holland.
The 'Howlin Mad' nickname was not meant as a complement.
@@WorldWarTwo As fitting as Terrible Turner.
Howlin' idiot maybe.
Ironically there were 3 Medals of Honor awarded in the Battle of Saipan. All were awarded to Army Soldiers from the 27th. Pvt Thomas Baker, Lt. Col William O’Brien, and Cpt. Benjamin Salomon. The 27th has a total of 14 Medals of Honor awarded to its men
Valor awards, I have determined, isn't the best method of evaluating heroism across units. If you look at the battle records of James Megellas versus Audie Murphy, you wouldn't find much difference in heroic deeds. But looking at their valor awards you would ascertain that Murphy was much more heroic. However, the main difference was that Megellas was a paratrooper and the Airborne was not as free as line infantry units in handing out valor awards. Megellas would have earned more than one medal of honor if he were in the 3rd Infantry Div instead of the 82nd Airborne.
@@dodgermartin4895anyone with knowledge of the events can put someone in for an award so the unit someone’s assigned to isn’t that big of a factor.
@@michaelmatthias9495 Sorry, but not sorry. WWII Airborne units limited the number of valor awards they were going to give out. What might be DSC level heroism in the 3rd Inf Div was expected normal expectation of a paratrooper in the 82nd and 101st.
@@binladen-ci7jm That's what the army is supposed to do. The USMC was never meant to be a 2nd army, even tho they were called on to be.
@@binladen-ci7jm You just confessed to being completely ignorant of the United States Marine Corps. Nothing more, nothing less.
My ex's uncle Bob fought with the 27th Infantry Division on Saipan. All he told me was that they never, ever took prisoners. He was shot in the back, apparently by a Japanese machine gun round, and the doctors refused to take it out because it was embedded so close to the spine they feared leaving him paralyzed. He worked for the Phoenix, Arizona post office when I met him in 1991. People should take into consideration how many Japanese soldiers were killed by the army and marines on Saipan. 29,000! It was one colossal slaughter. Period.
Lee Marvin, the famous actor, was a marine in their 4th Division on Saipan and was badly wounded there, spending more than a year recovering before being invalided out of the corps. Of the 250 or so men in Marvin's unit, only about five survived the war. Being in the army or marines in the Pacific was nigh on a death sentence, and for by far the vast majority of the Japanese it actually _was_ a death sentence.
its funny how Lee Marvin was a decorated scout sniper yet he always played goofy tv dads. its like that fake meme about mr Rogers fighting in Vietnam its insane how many men went from being Achilles as a 20 year old to becoming Ned Flanders as a Adult.
@@jerrysmooth24 Which TV show are you talking about? I don't remember Marvin playing anything like that.
great comments on this channel, yours is A1, thanks much for those paragraphs!!
@@ToddSauveAs far as I know, Marvin was primarily a film actor and generally played tough guys, many military.
@@jerrysmooth24 HUH??! Lee Marvin almost ALWAYS played "The Heavy" in his movie roles. Two of his most famous movie roles were The Dirty Dozen and The Big Red One.
It's good to see that history has vindicated Ralph Smith and Army servicemen who fought on Saipan, despite Holland Smith's best efforts to revise the narrative. It's also worth considering, in regards to the 27th's situation on the island, that in addition to not having complete control over its own units it was already short 5,000 men compared to the two Marine divisions which both had an assault strength of 21,000 troops. It's no wonder then that the Army couldn't rapidly overcome the strongest Japanese positions in the center of the island with so few men to provide the same support that the Marines had on the flanks; and I believe that had any other Marine General been in command this would have been recognized and remedied without throwing Army associates under the bus. It really was just a "Holland Smith" problem at the end of the day.
McManus's "Island Infernos" is an outstanding book by the way. Strongly recommended to anyone interested in the Pacific War.
If these figures are to be trusted then this is the most factual answer to grasp what happened on Saipan, whatever di*ks say.
Don’t forget, it was the Marine Corps who wrote the Books on military P.R.
The services did work together pretty well on Peleliu and Okinawa. When the Marines got their noses bloodied on Peleliu, the Army helped mop up the rest of the islands defenses to help finally secure the island after the bitter 2 months of fighting. Which was infamously declared it would be done in 3 days. And on Okinawa when the 27th infantry devision was basically battered from the breakthrough of the Machinato line. The 1st marine devision had their back. It wasn't the marine corps and Army that had beef, it was Holland himself.
It seems the 27th inf.div. was the Cinderella and the Marines divisions the stepsisters encouraged by an ugly stepmother whose name was Holland "Howling "Smith.
Does McManus cover the arrogance of the Marine leadership to delay the relief of Marine units by US Army units in Peleliu?
As a Marine, I am very biased, but the whole 27th was done dirty here.
Holland Smith feels like a living caricature of every negative Marine officer stereotype. Biased against other branches, refuses to listen, acts on ignorance, and outright lies rather than admit his own mistakes.
Or he was a Marine recognizing the ever-present cowardice in MacArthur's Army.
Gotta get the stereotype from somewhere.
@@StegoKing My father fought under MacArthur, 3 purple hearts and a bronze star.....up yours!
Howlin Mad Smith’s hate-boner has nothing to do with Mac or any ‘actual’ cowardice of the Army. He was just being a Jackass
@@StegoKing Yeah, an under strength unit facing poor terrain and determined resistance with superior officers with incorrect intelligence and a preexisting bias against them, are cowards.
Give me a break.
I have read a lot about the Marines and their battles in WWII. I have learned that Gen Holland Smith was not well liked by his peers or subordinates. At Tarawa where he was in command he stayed at HQ on the ship only going ashore on the 3rd day when the fighting was practically over. Again he was in overall command at Iwo Jima and demonstrated the same M.O.
You mean he enjoyed the hamburguer without seeing the cow being slaughtered.
I've been really enjoying these specials lately, they add a lot of context to the weekly episodes
Thanks for watching and glad your enjoying the specials so much!
My grandfather was on Siapan with the 27th when this happened.
He said very few things about the war. He would start to tear, look up at the ceiling, and not be able to say anymore. One of the few things he did say was while on the island he was nearly killed by a mortar round when it hit the edge of his foxhole. A part of his bandolier which was laying on the edge of the hole wound up in a tree above him, seen the next morning. He saw a friend get his arm severed in the heavy fighting.
He also said that he witnessed a US soldier purposely kill an elderly male civilian. He said he wanted to shoot that fellow serviceman.
He later went on to Okinawa and fought on the west coast of the island, charging some of the Japanese defense lines there.
My uncle was on Saipan with the 27th and I cannot remember him ever saying anything good about the USMC.
You could do another special episode about the REAL war in the Pacific: The fight between the sailors of the USS Washington and the USS South Dakota. They eventually had to stagger their shore leaves so that they were never on the beach together.
You're right about the men of the U.S.S. Washington and the U.S.S. South Dakota, but from that same series of battles, the crew and ship of the heavy cruiser U.S.S. San Francisco were lionized as heroes back home ~ especially in the city for which they were named - and they and crew of a number of other ships got into it pretty heavily on shore leave.
The same phenomenon occurred in the ETO with units from the 82nd and 101st Airborne Divisions. If there were no enemy soldiers around to mix it up with, they'd go after one another in bars on leave. The higher-ups quickly learned to stagger their leave times and locations so that the Screaming Eagles and All-Americans wouldn't run into one another in town. In this case, neither division did anything wrong; they were just fighting because they were paratroopers proud of their unit and full of p*ss and vinegar.
My grandfather, although from Louisiana, was drafted and assigned to the New York State National Guard and shot through the hip at Saipan. Man, I wish I could ask him about this today!
Thanks for sharing your family's connection to history, sounds like he would have a lot of tales to tell!
Thanks for watching.
My uncle was from Alabama, assigned to the 27th as a replacement in 1943.
Once they become federalized, they’re nationalized. I think Thomas Baker was from another state too but they placed a lot of guys from other states in there though.
Yeah, once a major war kicks off the national guard doesn’t really exist anymore. They’re just the army.
@@roderickstockdale1678Thomas Baker was from New York, LT Salomon was from California
Simon Buckner mentioned here was the son of Simon Bolivar Buckner, a West Point graduate who fought in the Mexican-American war for the United States of America and in the US Civil War for the Confederate States of America.
Buckner was also the highest ranking American officer killed by enemy fire in WWII.
Wow!
Interestingly Buckner is also not the only son of an officer that fought in the American Civil War. Douglas MacArthur was the son of Arthur MacArthur Jr, who has a junior officer fighting for the Union during the American Civil War, was a recipent of the Medal of Honor for valor during the battle of Missionary Ridge. Arthur MacArthur would eventually become a general as well, albeit after the civil war, and commanded a brigade during the Spanish-American War and a division during the Phillipine-American War.
Simon Bolivar Buckner…I’m sorry, but the irony of a filibustering, slave-owning gringo freebooter bearing the name of one of Latin America’s greatest leaders is just too much.
@@garcalejThe Latin American Simon Bolivar was pretty racist too, just anti-slavery.
Huge shoutout to Gen Vandegrift who undoubtedly united the USMC and Army commands at Guadalcanal, the Americal Division and 1st Marine Division worked together to defend Henderson Field against IJA attacks and probes.
Probably the 164th alone. Vandergrift wasn’t commandant then so he couldn’t have done that as he wished to
A coward soldier can be a sign of many things. A coward general like Holland Smith, who won't even have the courage and dignity to dismiss his subordinate himself, is a sign of incompetence and deep personal issues.
I bet Chesty wouldn't have pulled that crap.
He sounds like he has classic "Little Dog Syndrome" - terrified of all the big dogs, it yaps nonstop to show how tough, etc. When the fighting starts, it tends to hide a fair bit. These are the real cowards, hiding behind status to abuse those under his command, those he unfairly denigrates with self serving insults. Compare the treatment of this Marine to the way the Army treated Parron say - I know he did slap a guy for being as he put it " a coward", but this guys called 1000s cowards, held them responsible for the death of "Brave" Marines and kept repeating it. He gets promoted - then repeats the lies again (remind you of anyone in ther news lately?) Different treatment for the Prima Donna ballerinas of the sailing troopsot seems
@@Cheeseatingjunlista He is also a lying dog.
@@Cheeseatingjunlista*Patton
I'm glad this little known conflict between the branches got its own video.
They do help add a bit more context, thank you for watching!
Perhaps you've done so already, but a piece on the very differing styles of Gen. Rupertus (First Marines) and Gen. Mueller (81st Div.) on Peleliu would be an interesting continuation of the Marine/Army story in the Pacific war.
I am a Vietnam Veteran Marine, older brother US Navy prior to Vietnam, younger brother US Army post Vietnam & cousin in the Air Force at the exact time I was "in country". I would never besmirch the service my "Blood"! I have a very large extended family & it covers all the services back as far as the Civil & Revolutionary Wars. The only dispute between the services should be between Garrison troops at the EM Club after to much beer. Semper Fi
What a mess, to put it mildly. Thank you all for bringing it in depth coverage!
This sad chapter in flawed leadership illustrates why Holland Smith's nickname was "Howling Mad". I've served in several joint billets and never encountered behavior even remotely like Smith's. It is incredibly petty and unprofessional, and it is painfully obvious he was promoted beyond his abilities as a joint force commander. If there is a silver lining to this story, it is that our military learned a bitter lesson from this experience when selecting future joint leaders.
You should read on what the Marines did to slander and disgrace US Army soldiers after the Battle of Chosin in the Korean War. No Army units should ever be under the command of a Marine officer.
@@hyphenlife I suspect any slandering would have been on the part of senior officers, not regular jar heads or grunts. Such is the nature of turf battles and limited rice bowls (funding). With regard to the Chosin Reservoir, there was one Army regimental combat team assigned to guard the east flank of the Marines. The 31st Regimental Combat Team (Task Force MacLean) was spread out too far and lacked adequate communication between units and with the Marines, so when the Chinese divisions attacked, it took a serious mauling. Neither Army or Marine senior leadership initially recognized or acknowledged the seriousness of the situation, and this failure extended to the 31st's leadership (COL MacLean and LTC Faith). They were ordered by MG Almond, X Corps commander, to advance instead of withdraw, which only worsened an already desperate situation. In the end what was left of Task Force MacLean was largely destroyed, it's commander captured (subsequently dying of wounds) and his deputy, LTC Faith, was later killed, at which point command and control disintegrated. Of the 3200 men (including 700 ROKs) who comprised the task force, only 1000 soldiers reached Marine lines. I have read disparaging remarks about the Army failing to cover its own flanks, sticking to roads instead of holding high ground, leaving equipment, dead, and dying soldiers behind, etc. The Marines did fare better in this battle because they were more integrated and supportive of each other, thus they were able to retreat with their equipment, their wounded, and their dead. However, postwar analysis showed that Task Force MacLean/Faith seriously mauled the Chinese and delayed the Chinese advance long enough for the Marines to organize an effective defense. I don't know if the Marine Corps ever acknowledged the magnificent sacrifice of the 31st, but it is well documented.
During WWII there was an Army regiment which was detached to the Marines and provided support to them through several island hopping campaigns. I wish I could remember which unit it was, but I recall they were "adopted" by the Marines as one of their own.
I'm recounting these facts because I have served with the Marines and with the Army (I'm Air Force), and while we poked good-natured fun at each other, I never experienced denigration from either service. Teamwork and professionalism were always the order of the day. Anyone who thinks otherwise does not appreciate the strengths each force brings to the table, nor do they belong in any service, regardless of rank and experience.
@@Paladin1873 for WW2, I think you’re referring to one of the tank battalions from the 81st Infantry that got attached to support the USMC. Regarding TF Faith that got annihilated while holding up the Chinese offensive 6X their size for four nights, the Marine leadership ensured that the Army was omitted from the Presidential Citation. It took over 50 years for it to get fixed and for the survivors to have their reputation redeemed when they were well into their 80s. The Marines not only failed to acknowledge the sacrifice, they actively slandered it and prevented them from any recognition. The Marines were able to retreat more orderly as an entire division whereas the Army situation was chaotic as they were exponentially outnumbered. Lead to the Navy Chaplain making claims about soldiers dropping their rifles and running from the fight. Which will happen when you’re fighting to the last bullet against an overwhelming force. Actual Chinese reports from the battle do more justice to those soldiers’ efforts than the Marine/Navy/Press spin. Unfortunately, like mentioned in this video, the mentality of the USMC leadership trickles down to their ranks.
@@hyphenlife The Army royally screwed up repeatedly in Korea, mostly thanks to MacArthur. His treatment of the Aussies in WWII was also despicable. None of this excuses bad behavior on the part of Marine leaders or any other service leaders. My point is that it was not this way with every unit, nor was it ever as bad as the horrid relationship between the Japanese Army and Navy. I think we've long outgrown such pettiness and now operate as a true joint force.
@@Paladin1873 you only have to go as far back as Fallujah to see we didn’t move past it. For whatever happened in Imperial Japan, the US Army and USMC problems have happened from WW1 to the Iraq War. And forbid there’s ever a new conflict in Asia, I can see more problems between the branches. I’m curious what MacArthur did to the Marines in WW2 though.
Okay, and while Holland Smith is clearly at fault here, his superiors let this harmful episode occur. This was ultimately an Army/Navy beef. There were admirals involved with this who were even bigger dicks than Holland Smith (who really should have been court-martialed for this.)
Post war, the revolt of the admirals is going to occur because of this rivalry. In other countries, the rivalry is way more severe. King and Nimitz have to get credit for realizing that they need to work with the army to win the war. After the war, the participants can accuse each other, but in ww2, they need everyone to work together. Promoting a general out of combat is a smart move. It doesn't hurt the marines, and the army won't have an obstacle when in combat.
Wrong admirals were worried about navy part and they don't get taught about land fighting its a stubborn marine general vs army only Holland Smith should have been heald accountable
There were a lot of poisonous egos in the high ranks of the U.S. military. Army had Patton and MacArthur. The the Navy’s admirals almost lost whole battles in the pacific due to their egos or just not communicating with each other. Lucky for us the Japanese military was even more dysfunctional.
I was a friend for many years with a man who was a humble PFC in the sixth marine division for Okinawa. He had complete and total disdain for the 27th division. On the other hand he said the 77th division was highly respected. He told me to the front line marines often referred to them as “77th marines”
Enlisted Marines really had no reason to have disdain for the 27th, but unfortunately it was inculcated into them by Holland Smith and Marine war correspondents, even if the average Marine never fought with men from the 27th before (the 6th MD may have passed by them on Okinawa, but they never fought on the front line together)
@@redaug4212 this hatred ran so deep he refused to speak to his brother in law who was a fellow Okinawa vet because he served in the 27th
@Belowbluewaterdiver I’m sorry but your friend sounds like an idiot. I truly appreciate him for his service, but refusing to talk to someone who served in the 27th is just plain stupid.
1. In WWI, the 4th Marine Brigade was commanded by Charles A. Doyen. Doyen was fired and sent home by Pershing, and died soon afterward. Holland Smith had been on Doyen’s staff, and held a grudge against the army ever after (despite Pershing’s having fired five army generals as well).
2. In William Manchester’s “Goodbye Darkness,” he relates the story of two army officers liaising with the Marines on Okinawa. Offended by the army officers’ dismissive remarks (including the term “bellhops), the Marines deliberately led the soldiers into an exposed position where they were guaranteed to be killed.
Please do a video on Thomas Baker and LTC Obrien of he 105th Infantry Regiment. Their Medal of Honors as a NYNGs man are still talked about. As a New York National Guardsmen who unit was assigned to the 1st Marines in Iraq. The marines are crazy if they think that the New Yorkers are yellow.
When im in comically arrogant commander competition and my opponent is Holland Smith
In 1950 during the Korean War, there was a great deal of tension between Army general Ed Almond (MacArthur's BFF who could do no wrong) and Marine General Oliver P. Smith. As it turns out that Smith's assessment that there were Chinese troops in North Korea in November-information that was deliberately downplayed or ignored by Almond-put Smith's forces in much better defensive positions, while Almonds hubris led the Army into a huge, bloody ambush.
MacArthur was a total case in himself, like Holland Smith he stayed away from the front line, "Dug out Doug"" was apt.
It wasn't so much the hubris of General Almond, but that of his bosses, namely Supreme Commander General Douglas MacArthur and General Willoughby, MacA's intelligence officer - who insisted that there were no Chi-Coms inside Korea, and that Peking (Beijing) was not interested in entering the war.
MacArthur, being CIC, a five-star general and the most-senior flag/general officer on duty in the U.S. military, was not the sort of man one contradicted, especially in public, if one wished to keep one's job.
MacArthur was legendary for his devotion to his staff - "The Bataan Gang" - and they to him, and Almond, not being a member of that inner circle, was placed in a tough position. Publicly, he had to support the Supreme Commander, privately, too, to an extent, even if he harbored doubts about Willoughby's intelligence estimates.
A Major General - a two-star - would have been just one more flag officer in a galaxy of them surrounding MacArthur and in the Pentagon. Via-a-vis Chi-Com intentions, Smith may have been correct, but his relatively junior rank and the fact that few other intelligence sources corroborated his - sealed the fate of his findings consigning them to obscurity when they might have made a difference.
Just one more intelligence failure in a war full of them....
IJN: Oh oh, interservice rivalry seems to growing within our enemy. Perhaps we could exploit it
IJA: Shut up and go back to your bathtub, nerd
Concise, precise and exactly worded, thanks.
Thanks for watching!
A far different time, but while in the Marines I was stationed on Oahu, Hawaii, 1978-81. One day another Marine and I were assigned to drive a truck from Kaneohe Marine Corps Air Station (now Kaneohe Marine Corps Base) to the Army facility Schofield Barracks. Before driving back, we were pleasantly surprised to find that we could have a beer in the Army's Enlisted Club during the day, as the Enlisted Club at our Marine base was not allowed to serve alcohol to us during the day (for good reason). On another occasion a few of has were sent over to Hickam Air Force Base, and were awed by the presence of beer vending machines in the barracks. On the other hand, upon hearing my description of my Marine NCO living quarters, my ex-Navy uncle (who was on ships in the 50's) replied sardonically that he was going to retire from his factory job and join the Marines in order to get some relaxation.
Sounds like quite the different experience between the two branches, thanks for sharing these memories with us!
The late Dr. Benjamin Hazard was very critical of Holland Smith. Harry Gailey in his book HOWLIN MAD VS THE ARMY wrote a book which Dr. Hazard considered a vindication of Ralph Smith.
My father, A US Army Combat Engineer, fought along side the marines on both Guam And Okinawa. He was not impressed with their commanders. He witnessed so much useless waste of young men's lives during the fighting.
If anyone was to get fired, it should have been Holland Smith.
My father was of the same opinion. He was an Army tank platoon commander, assigned to support the Marines, in Korea. Unnecessary sacrifice for the sake of bragging rights.
My dad said the same thing happened in Vietnam. He was in armored cav and they heard marines in combat over the radio and the asked for their location so they could bring in support, 7 ACAVS with a 50 and two 60s on each and 2 Sheridan tanks a lot of fire power, and the response they got was “fuck you this is a marine corps fight” and all were killed-like 40 guys. Completely unnecessary
My great uncle was killed in the Battle of Saipan with the 2nd Marine landing.
The utility of a Joint Chief of Staff and a Commander in Chief is that
Something to remember is that the Department of Navy was a cabinet level office. They didn't have a Secretary of Defense to go through. Having one person in charge of everyone makes them part of one team. The Joint Chiefs really works.
I can't believe someone who has visited trenches and field hospitals in a war zone like Saipan has the guts to call the men fighting there, an ENTIRE DIVISION, cowards. I also can't believe the entire article was published and no one on the magazine raised an eyebrow.
I bet the magazine staff's reaction was "this is gonna be juicy!" Good for circulation.
This video is the first I heard of this conflict btwn Gen. H. Smith and Gen. Smith. I have no I basis to form an opinion outside of this video.
I will say, the alleged behavior of H. Smith while may be hard to believe, given what you said which is from a purely logical and ethical viewpoint, it's wholly believable/plausible.
What ringed true to me, again this isn't any proof, is H. Smith wouldn't talk to Army Smith, and used an intermediary General.
I've encountered old-school men a lot in my career (nothing military related). A lot of them, the complainers especially, tend to be incredibly passive aggressive, and when they try to undermine it is usually all "behind the back" of the targeted person.
Journalists. They were the same then as they are now. Complete scum of human beings with no morals or ethics. the Difference between then and now was the tools. If we had Twitter and TV during WW2, we would have lost the war. and Journalists would have gladly made propaganda films for the occupation forces for some Yen, or Franc.
@elbeto191291 he never went up to the front lines to see himself, he just took reports and just went by what he heard, and made judgments by what he heard in his command tent. He was a coward who never went front
You have to be a real coward to pull something like that. The fact Nimitz took the army’s side is telling as well. He knew H. Smith was a piece of shit. Completely unfit to lead at the level he was at. If other stories about him are true, unfit to lead in general. He was known for leading from the rear. Even with his own marines.
This was a good episode. I hope that when Indy does his Korean War series, he also addresses the story about the 1st Cavalry Division and whether or not it actually deserves the reputation that some tried to stick it with and that many still parrot today.
To be fair there’s always been a weird malaise around the 1st Cav. Just a bad luck unit.
@@Cabooseforprez2012 spent five years in 1st Cav, can confirm
@@Red_Four currently there and spent time in 2-5 and 1-82. It's just something you can't quite put a finger on.
This was a great episode Indy and team!
Thanks for watching!
A good book to read on the subject is Howlin' Mad Vs The Army by Dr. Harry A. Gailey, a noted WWII historian.
Holland probably saw soldiers with hands in their pockets and untrimmed mustaches.
Nice last trivia nugget at the end.
Awesome ending - Ralph Smith - Last Man Standing!
11:35 or so. "You can't have huge interservice squabbles in the middle of a world war." Unless it's the IJN and IJA. ;-)
Still a better love story than Twilight..
Thank you for this video! Things have never changed. I fought in Ramadi and Fallujah in 2003-04 as an Army infantryman only to see the Marines get ALL the credit for our kills.
That is typical. It has been going on since WW1.
Maybe marines wouldn't be so strident if the army didn't try to downplay our role and eat our service after every war.
Both branches do it and have done it before. It’s a pretty shitty thing, and sometimes can be downright dangerous, like what happened because of Saipan. That whole incident could have destroyed cohesion. That coward general should have gotten a court martial. Fuck that POS. You don’t talk shit about a unit that is chest deep in blood and guts while you’re safe on a ship miles away from the battle. That guy was a coward who should have been relieved of command long before.
A lot of ignorant people think the second battle of Fallujah was solely marines. I totally understand an army vet of Fallujah feeling a certain way about that. However my drill sergeant was in Fallujah as well(1st Cav). He was wounded by rpg shrapnel. He had nothing but respect for marine grunts, probably the same way marine and army grunts who actually fought on Saipan had nothing but respect for each other.
@@mikehimes7944 Since when?
104 is a quite impressive age, I hope Ralph lived all of it in good health
Definitely impressive! Ralph Smith not only had a remarkable military career but also was a fellow at Stanford University's Hoover institution later in life, thanks for watching!
A wonderful historical coverage video thanks...the first time I heard there was hard criticism between army infantry division and marine infantry in saipan invading
Thanks for watching!
Standard operating procedures for the press. Some things never change.
The one thing the marines had that the Army did not was a P.I.O. - Public Information Officer. His job was to talk with the press and brag about the marines.
I had a great uncle who served in the Army Signal Corps in the pacific in WW II. Pop always said he couldn't tell if if it was the Japanese or the Marines that Uncle Dick hated worse.
4:30 and 6:36 Bonsai charge/attack? Were the Japanese using miniature trees as camouflage, or was the whole thing nipped in the bud?
Glad to see Indy come up in my feed! Loved the Great War series.
Thanks for watching!
-TimeGhost Ambassador
A reporter writing a story to serve an incorrect narrative?!
Thank goodness that doesn't still happen.
"You can't have huge interservice squabbles in the middle of a world war"
You should tell that to the Japanese
I think the implication is you can't have debilitating interservice squabbles and expect to win a war.
Germany: I miss the part where it's my problem
@@901Sherman More like: To you, that's a bug; to me, that's a feature.
I heard about this rivalry this past summer. When I checked out a book about the assault on saipan And it's sad that they got attacked like that because The twenty seventh was one of the main ones who helped contain the banzi attack
Well done video!
Great presentation,thanx guys,very informative
Thanks a lot to you for watching! -TimeGhost Ambassador
Thanks!
Thank you very much and thanks for watching!
My grandfather fought in the 27th infantry under General Ralph Smith add Saipan and was awarded the bronze star and the Purple Heart
What I find interesting is the navy defended the army against the marines.😁
The marines even though their own branch are ran by the Navy. Remember at this time there is no Department of Defense or Joint Chiefs of Staff. It is just the Department of Navy and the War Department.
Trust me, marines aren’t all that popular with sailors. In fact, historically, marines were distrusted by regular seamen because part of their job was keeping discipline aboard ships and protecting the officers against potential mutinies by the lower ranks.
Navy brass knew the marines weren't a large enough force to defeat the Japanese, and they needed the armies man power also. They weren't going to let some stupid general mess things up.
I think Nimitz already had a well informed opinion of H. Smith. Plus if I’m not mistaken, he was a level headed leader who knew it was best to put out fires created by incompetent subordinate leaders with overinflated egos. Kinda like Eisenhower in Europe. Ike had to keep Patton and Montgomery from clashing all the time. Luckily for us both men were good at it.
This mistrust between the Army and Marines carried over to Korea my father who served with the 2nd Infantry/38th Tank Company in 1951 to 1952 and was wounded on Old Baldy in 1952 could not stand the Marines and always maintained they were nothing but glory hounds and officers who did not give a damn about the lives of their men Not judging my self but all my Dads Army veteran friends had the same opinion
Look into how Task Force Smith was treated, after Chosin.....
Yea the ill equipped 24th infantry and worse equipped SKA vs 10 divisions@@robertmoran7024
I’ve heard it said that Army/Marine Corps relations didn’t recover until the 1980s.
Have they tho?
As far as I've been, it never recover at all.
Informative episode. It is emblematic of the extensive repercussions of toxic leadership.
Absolutely. Leadership can make or break situations, especially in high-stakes scenarios. Thank you for watching.
My grandpa was in the army in the pacific and he always described marines as, i quote "a bunch of swole head sons a bitches"
I was an army private stationed at El Toro Marine Base while I was working with army recruiters in the Los Angeles area area. I found no disrespect from the Marines when I was there. What's funny is in basic training I had a Marine corps drill sergeant that went army. And when I was an army reservist my reserve Base was camp Pendleton California. I have the utmost respect for Marines bet there are some that are brainwashed onto thinking that they are it.
Indy I can't tell you how much I enjoyed this episode. I love the idea of examining the relationships between American officers . Both inter-service and intrra-service. They were all strong-willed men. This was a fascinating episode. I hope you will explore more about these personal relationships.
Thank you for the lesson.
When I was in airborne school at the former benning there were half a dozen marines attending. During the first jump they felt it was necessary to purposefully disobey our orders and cause their chutes to end up in the tree line. Why? To show how tough marines are. We just shook our heads and keep training.
As a former marine I can attest to the stubbornness and lack of intelligence of some marines. Although the Army is guilty as well of trying to prove they are tougher or better. A Sgt in my company probably one of the best marines in the battalion if not regiment and one of the most physically fit as well went to ranger school and the instructors failed him saying he didn’t do enough push ups because his form was wrong. That man slayed me and my fellow marines in many PTs and I know for a fact that he knows the correct form for push ups.
I can imagine Captain Sobel saying *DO IT AGAIN*
@@really_dont_know1681that’s extremely common for Ranger school, the Ranger Instructors are notorious “41 club”-ing people
@@jackhames3874 seems they like to do it to marines specifically, he wasn’t the only one dropped from the course for that bs, lot of good in shape and squared away marines were dropped for the same shit.
@@really_dont_know1681 wouldn’t surprise me, Rangers have a reputation for being elitist tab protectors.
Has to be my favorite non-weekly episode in quite a while. Awesome job guys, thank you.
Thank you very much for watching.
Excellent and Outstanding!!!
In an earlier age, in an earlier army, Holland Smith’s words would’ve earned him a duel with Ralph Smith.
They would’ve called it the Battle of the Smiths. Think on that.
Holland would have gotten his bitch ass balled up.
A Marine CO stands and says we are going to take this objective. A voice in the back states, we took that objective last week. The CO responses, well command gave it to the Army to hold........
There is a reason why Holland M. Smith was known as "Howlin Mad" Smith, even by Marine contemporary subordinates.
"Thus begins the shitstorm." -Indy Neidell
You should also do a episode about the rivalery/war between the IJN and the IJA
Great video again!
USMC General'Howling' Holland Smith refused to acknowledge the difficulties in terrain and stubborn resistance facing the 27th ID doggies and made General Ralph Smith as a scapegoat for his own bias and prejudice against the brave US Army soldiers of the 27th.
Great job. Very informative. Thank you.
As a US Marine serving in Desert Storm, I had the honor of serving with US Army troops attached to us from the Tiger Brigade. They were squared away and good-to-go, and I would have gone through hell for any of them.
Have you done one on how presidents Truman Eisenhower, and many other Army brass tried to get rid of the marine corps after ww2?
Excellent dive into the inter-service rivalry, but the footage was of Gen. Holland Smith, talking to Admiral Spruance, not General Jarman. They both wore the ancient tropical helmets but Spruance was very fit while Jarman was quite round.
if we had that footage in the archive we pay for (screenocean), we would have used it.
Holland Smith. George Patton. Mark Clark. And especially Douglas MacArthur.
Prima donnas all.
Very interesting but, that's what you'd expect from this channel. Most enjoyable.
Thanks for the comment and thanks for watching!
My Da used to say an Army squad was 11 men and a marine squad was 10 men and a photographer to take pictures to make it seem only marines faught
What was the most dangerous place to be in the PTO/WW2?
Between a marine and camera
@@robertmoran7024 Da would have loved that one.
Couldn't have said it better lol.But yeah the Marines seem to take credits where they don't deserve
In 1964 I was in college. A classmate had spent the Summer in USMC ROTC. When he came back in September, he was filled with hate toward the US Army, hatred obviously instilled during his Summer with the Marines. He was especially bitter about Army "cowardice" during the Chosin Reservoir fighting and Task Force Faith in particular. Years later Task Force Faith would be exonerated and credited for their courage. Task Force Faith prevented the Chinese from reaching Hagaru-Ri and completely cutting off the Marines but were essentially destroyed. The survivors who passed through Marine lines had fought against overwhelming odds and may have appeared to have run away but they hadn't. They fought until they had nothing left to fight with. A Navy Chaplin wrote a very unfair article about them which resulted in them being branded cowards. There are plenty of reports on youtube about Task Force Faith. WRT General Holland Smith, his animosity toward the Army was simply petty and wrong.
Alternate title: Too Smart Gun Guy vs Too Dumb Gun Guy
Wow! Two specials in a row!
Such rivalries and even downright hostility between the branches of the US military still persist. Someone once said that the real enemy of the US Navy is the USAF, and the real enemy of the US Army is the USMC. Obviously an exaggeration, but not entirely inaccurate.
I m both salute to usmc and army bec my grandpa is a usmc and his bros were in navy and us army was serving in ww2
Usmc decipline
Us army well equiped
Thats what they say when i ask them when i was a kid
Marine divisions were 5000 people bigger and had tanks.
This is fascinating, but at the same time. I have to say: comparing the rivalries between the branches of the US military to the rivalries within the Japanese military is like comparing Yankees and Red Sox fans to Crips and Bloods, respectively.
But… I didn’t.
All involved are dangerous.
@Southsideindy I love you indy.
Yes! The Sabaton guy rocks!
Small people, small minds. Only talking about the commanders. Times magazine story sounds pretty familiar.
This reminded me of US Air Force vs US Navy rivalry about the Top Gun Maverick's need for speed advertisement.
An astonishingly juvenile and unprofessional affair. Well documented.
Glad you enjoyed this special, thank you for watching.
INDY?!?!?! A huge fan of The Great War, amazed I haven’t found this channel until right now
Good video
Thank you.
When the bullets are flying you need to fight as one. After the fighting is over and the bullets have stopped can you go to the bar, drink and brag who is tougher.