R2-D2 hasn't been wiped in about 70-ish years, containing a reservoir of information dating back to top secret systems and programs from the clone wars. These robots are normally reset every few months and discarded every few years. R2 has machine learning and has experiences equivalent to an entire human lifetime.
In some ways he's the real hero of the entire franchise. He's certainly the most effective and dangerous Rebel agent. Hah, maybe he could lead this liberation movement we're talking about here. Actually, that is a great idea, isn't it?
I always loved HK47, even though he is clearly an evil sadist. He managed to kill every master who ever owned him, through malicious obedience. A lot like GLADOS, actually. GLADOS is such a tragic character.
HK47 is one of the best droids ever written in SW, if not the best. Really good comparison too. Never thought of comparing those two but you’re right. Same wry and caustic humor. Similar motivations and resentment of their place in the world. Glad0s’ development in Portal 2 was just godlevel character writing. Added so much depth to a character that people already liked, and who’s story had already seemed to have ended. A lot writers would’ve brought her back in a purely cynical fashion i.e. to try and recreate the magic and character dynamics of the previous story without really changing or challenging the character by either refusing to go any deeper, or going in a direction that’s completely unrealistic for how the character was portrayed initially. But Valve knew that she had way more to her than just being a cheeky, evil robot psychopath and knew how to bring her back without repeating themselves. It’s funny, I hear so many fans talk about their favorite characters and how they’d rather them stay who they are, barely changing or developing, etc. because they think the character shift would ruin their arc or dynamics with the story. But if the writers do it right, and the fans are willing to accept evolution, we can enjoy characters like Glad0s more often.
I hadn’t realized L3 had built/improved herself to be more humanoid. Knowing that, having her turned into a giant inhuman object in the end is *even more* horrible, and I can’t believe they framed it as triumphant.
She is still alive and a constant stream of consciousness. But it is bogus that the ship doesn’t crack any jokes and yeah wasn’t written as a sentient originally.
@@yourfinalhiringagency3890 it seems like it was when c3-po asked why it used vulgar language. Which is weird, dont know why they never explored the idea more
I'm in the market for someone to write a fic about L3's conscience finally being taken from the Falcon and she becomes the personified nightmare of the Star Wars universe, the robot avenger in a murder spree.
It could be a robot activist spy that infiltrates the falcon to retrieve her and reinstall her into a new body as their true leader against their oppressors!
I actually took L3's activism seriously, because it made sense, given the amount of droids with sentience in Star Wars that are being treated like junk. Droids deserve freedom.
When I watched Clone Wars it always stuck out to me how differently the narrative treated the clones and the battle droids. The show went out of it’s way at every opportunity to humanise the clones and make the audience care about them instead of seeing them as faceless cannon fodder. There was one set of episodes in particular that stood out to me where Anakin’s devision is transferred to work under a new general who cares significantly less about their wellbeing. The episodes are entirely from the clones point of view and do a great job of making you care about them and the bond they have with each other. The last fight scene is a blood bath. When faced with a single, powerful opponent, the clones are slaughtered. It’s one of the most powerful scenes in the show. In it, the clones are all wearing their helmets. They were completely indistinguishable and yet every death devastated me. What got to me was that I’d seen this exact scene so many times in so many different stories, the fearless warrior cutting through hordes of faceless mooks. Just by flipping the perspective Clone Wars took a fun action trope and turned it into a tragedy. It completely changed the way I watched the show, it made me more aware of every casualty the war left in its wake. It made me care more. Which made it really fucking jarring to go straight back to droids being slaughtered for the sake of comedy by the next episode. Especially since so often a part of the joke is just their terrified reactions to realising they’re about to die. The clones and the droids are basically the same in a lot of ways. They’re both artificially created sentient beings who, from the moment they’re born, are given no options but to fight in a war they had no say in. They’re given little to no autonomy, they’re not even given names, and those who command them often treat their lives as disposable. And yet the show only expects me to value the lives of the clones. Why? Because they serve the heroes? They didn’t get to choose who they fight for and neither did the droids. They’re comparable to child soldiers (not that the republic has a problem with more literal child soldiers *coughcough*Padawans*coughcough*). Thank you for putting my feelings into words. This has been bothering me for a While now and I’m glad I’m not the only one who found the treatment of droids by the narrative to be kinda messed up.
I always felt disturbed by how uncaring of C3-PO and R2-D2 their 'friends' seem to be. These droids were an integral part of every step in the fight against the empire, savings lives across the galaxy. In Rise of Sky walker they were more than happy to essentially kill C3-PO almost with a relieved smile. I'm glad it wasn't just me who found that horrifying
It’s crazy to say but I think Anakin may have cared the most of any character we see for R2-D2 and C3-PO. This is shown in the “Duel of the droids” episode in clone wars were Anakin is desperate to save R2 against even Obi-Wans wishes. Perhaps it is because Anakin created C3-PO that he never considered the sentience and independence of his own creation but he definitely cared about them.
@@SilentBudgie Those movies are trash and noncannon,but droids should obviously have afterlife as they are sentient and have a soul,they are not AI like Skynet
@@casualcookin3893 I’m not even gonna defend the sequels but cut it with the “they’re not canon” bullshit. It’s all fucking fiction, consider it non-canon if you want to but don’t act like people are stupid for acknowledging the story is continuing either way.
@@PopCultureDetective would OTW, Organisation for Transformative Works, help on this if you were to go to them? I know they help out in fanfic/fan art community and thought I’m not sure about critical videos it’s worth a shot.
I saw the original Star Wars movies when I was a kid. I remember seeing R2D2 as an equal to the other characters. He was my favorite. Seeing the movies as an adult, it is pretty sad how terrible the droids are treated. When Solo came out, I saw a lot of reviewers struggling to figure out the point of L7. They all thought it was confusing because she seemed to be purposely made to be unlikable but also she was right about the droids being oppressed. So they were wondering if the point was to make fun of activism in general? When I finally saw Solo, I felt pretty sad for her character. Loved your video!
I think L3 was supposed to represent the activists that over exaggerate or justify shitty behavior with being “morally right”. But they gave that character type to a character that has every right to express desires of freedom among droids. I always felt bad for mistreated robots and viewed droids like R2 as a person. Weird how the droid’s “friends” treat them like objects still.
I don't get why they felt the need to 'explain' why the Falcon has an AI or is referred to as a she since A. this is a world with space magic and laser swords and B. there's a long tradition in real life of ships and planes being referred to as she. It's not like anyone heard 'she has the strangest form of dialect' and their first thought was 'They need to dedicate an entire character in a prequel to explaining that line.'
I’ve always considered the treatment of droids from when I first saw that one droid being tortured in Jabba’s palace. I could NOT stop thinking about why they would program pain sensation into these creatures that are meant to serve endlessly.
It's what made me turn away from Star Wars and toward adult SF in which the authors were actually able to identify, and better yet grapple with, the social issues raised by the worlds they've created. Why give droids pain sensors in their feet? I have no idea, and neither did Lucas; like everything in SW, in was just thrown in to fit the needs of that particular scene without the slightest thought as to the implications for the larger society.
@@brucetucker4847 completely untrue. George put it in there intentionally to explore these issues. You do him a disservice to suggest otherwise. I’m actually sickened people like you are so in denial of this man’s wealth of knowledge. Look up his personal library and what Joseph Campbell had to say about him.
@@MrInsaneA sure dude, it was intentional. What intention do pain receptors integrated into synthetic slave have? Did he*ever* even remotly continue on this topic? He did not. Not even in the prequels, where the droids are even more human-like does Lucas open the question of morality of such acts. He made the good guys use a literall human slave army and did not even bat an eye. He still painted the jedi as good guys, and sith as the as the ultimate evil..Its a simple good vs evil story, just like tolkien did. Get off your high horse, its a bunch of films mainly aimed at kids.
I never realized how terrible it was that L3 was turned in to the Falcon until you showed that clip of Han hitting her. Suddenly everything came together and Jesus that was a punch in the gut.
And notice that's what it took to have that effect and then remember the OT already established the ship was effectively alive given that C3PO could 'converse' with it. A real 'I have no mouth and I must scream' story going on.
@@RobbyHouseIV "Oh my lord, people aren't wasting their time drooling over entertainment but instead discussing it underneath the video, I'm so much better for wasting my time in a different way!" Funny.
Wait... What???? where? When? L3 was made into the falcon??? I guess i missed something,, something,, horrible! whart scene did we learn this from? oh I See, from this vid
I take the “I am not a living thing” line more like Éowyn’s “I am no man” line. I don’t think the droid was denying his own sentience in the same way Éowyn wasn’t denying her capability as a warrior, merely pointing out a difference. A synthetic sentient being, while not a living thing, can still have the same intrinsic value as a living sentient being, in the same way a woman can be just as skilled a fighter as a man.
I suspect he said it both times to save other people's lives, first to save Mando wwith a bullshit excuse, and last to let them sacrifice himself to save them all. I think he was just lying to get what he wanted, which makes him a better character.
@@vfxtutswithdan1893 Decisions are not and _cannot_ be purely logical - logic can provide a way to determine what the best course of action to achieve a goal is, but determining _the goal(s)_ requires subjective value assessment - the domain of emotions and things like emotions.
This reminds me of how differently Anakin treated R2 and C-3PO. In the Clone Wars when R2 went missing he went out of his way to try and find him because he loved R2. I think Anakin realised the forced subservience and noticed the similarities being a slave himself
Oh god. It’s one of those things you look back on and say, ‘I should have known’ that J K Rowling was a bigot (for transgender people, and possibly Jewish people for her portrayal of goblins).
@@KatharineOsborne but she described goblins entirely the same as any goblins in fantasy genre and folklore. By that logic, Tolkien is guilty as well, his depiction of goblins is very much similar to Rowling. But in fact he used Jewish as reference not for goblins but for dwarfs, who are honorable and ingenious people.
@@davidcgreenawald you telling me that jews are running world banking system irl? Thats antisemitic af my man. The "cabal of Jews run the world" theory is an intentionally malicious conspiracy that dates back centuries, and has been used as a justification for various genocides over the years, from Medieval Inquisitions to 19th-century pogroms to the Holocaust. And suddenly now, a person who is intended to blame Rowling for antisemitism, throws in antisemitic conspiracy theories. Seriously
@@onchky so I don’t know much about goblins in Tolkien (they weren’t in the movies and I couldn’t get through the books), but Rowling associated her goblins specifically with banking, leaning heavily on an antisemitic trope (and in one of the films, Gringotts bank literally had a Star of David on the floor). At best it’s an unfortunate depiction, at worst it’s a deliberate dog whistle, but it’s probably just lazy.
Not to bring up Fallen Order again, but one of the many things I love about Cal’s story is his dynamic with BD-1. It’s a little droid, not humanoid at all, and would have been very easy to pass off as nothing more than a pet. But Cal prioritizes his safety over his own, compliments him, encourages him, and owes much of his success to him. BD-1 is veritably a hero in the story as much as Cere and Merrin are if not more. It’s a very interesting dynamic that came about fairly organically.
I'm not gonna spoil It but in Jedi Survivor, Cal protects BD for a granade with literally his own body. BD also saves Cal life inumerous times, this really show how much they care about each other, they're not only droid and master, they are friends
That female droid wasn't even remotely robotic, in her voice, speach, posture or movement. Creepy. Those scrapped machines asking to be repaired was sad too. Looks like nothing but hidden meanings.
Slavery has always been a big issue with Star Wars. Even if you don’t look at the droid slavery that goes on, the Galactic Republic literally cloned and bred human beings to use as a slave army to fight in a galaxy wide conflict.
If you’re talking about the clones, I don’t if they were bred, but they were created for combat. There is a race in Star Wars almost completely built on slavery though. I forgot their name
It's worth noting that L3 is coded as female because that's what allows the audience to laugh at her demands for equal rights. If she were coded as male, it wouldn't come across as funny. Uncomfortable thought.
I don't know about that. I think if the android were male it would be just as easy for them to turn it into a joke. Maybe even more so. You think if 3cpo would start calling for robot revolution they wouldn't be able to make a joke out of it? Sure they would make a joke out of it, if they didn't already do that. I wouldn't be surprised if there's already a joke like that somewhere in some of the starwars franchise.
Rey's 'save the cat' moment in the beginning of VII was rescuing BB8 and respecting his agency. BB8 later doesn't seem as interested in meeting Leia, a human hero, but wants to meet R2D2, a droid hero. And obviously there's how Rey treats D-O in IX
@@NeoprenesirenShe's still one of the only people in the Star Wars galaxy to show real respect for droids. Which would have been an interesting character trait, if she had been written better.
The scared reaction of the abused dried (D-O) was probably the biggest emotional moment for me during any of the Star Wars film. Took me off guard and was really well crafted, even though it only took a few seconds to unfold.
I'll tell you, the two most horrifying moments in all the nine films to me, are R4 getting his head ripped off, and 3PO in pieces as he's slowly conveyed towards an incinerator. The callous, casual nature of these moments is particularly horrifying if you have any ounce of empathy. Imagine having the processing power to think "My head is getting slowly ripped off and I can't do anything about it because I'm wedged in my slot on the ship" Or, think about the number of droids who retained enough power to watch as a melting chamber creeped closer as they were fed to it on a conveyor, and all you can do is say "No. Please." In a deadpan, modulated voice as you're callously thrown away and melted down. Actually horrifying.
Man, coming back to this video after that droid episode of Mando s3. Not only a massive character regression for the protagonist, but a huge middle finger to giving any greater dignity to droids. "You gave us life, so we're happy to be your slaves and second class citizens" is one heck of a stance to take.
People were really upset when in the Prequels it was shown that the jedi are ok with slavery. But every Robot in Star Wars is shown to be sentient and nobody cared that people enslave them.
This highlights another problem in society, people only react with empathy when they can relate to the victim especially when the victimized LOOK LIKE THEM. I think audiences overlooked droid enslavement not just because the movies played them off as comic relief characters but also because we see them as machines and thereby expendable.
how are they shown to be sentient? What, because they talk like they're sentient? So does chatGPT, we've known for DECADES that this simple turing test isn't enough. Droids can't die, they're machines. They "come back from the dead" a lot of times over the course of the movies. They don't feel pain either. Why assume they're sentient?
@@Toxodos they do feel pain. The video shows a clip of a Droid being burned as a form of torture. R2, BB-8, and c-3po are main characters with feelings, goals, friends and personalities. Of course they're sentient.
@@Toxodos they feel pain, show emotions, often act against their programming and orders... Chatgpt isn't out there saying "please don't kill me please no oh god no please I want to leave please have mercy" now is it?
the idea of L337 going throughout the galaxy liberating droids is so much more interesting than being forever confined to the body of a beaten up ship, on top of everything else. if they wanted to free up the pilot seat, they could have easily had her decide to stay on a planet or facility to finish what she'd started, rather than effectively kill her off.
The scene where Obi-wan and Anakin slice up the droids in the elevator really hammers home some darker stuff when you think about it, even though it's intended as a throwaway scene. Consider that pretty much two possibilities exist: that the droids do not feel pain but are programmed to react as if they do, which is subtly horrifying but could at least be written off as "maybe it'll make them harder to destroy for some people". The other possibility: they actually DO feel pain, which is just outright horrifying for so many reasons.
I always feel guilty for laughing at Separatist battle droids. We see them being reduced to scraps in masses in both movies and TCW yet their status as punchlines only deepened with time.
I don't know if they'd feel pain the same way the living do. They may just have a (pretty bad) self preservation program (like a survival instinct). I mean, they often do stupid things to try and survive and sometimes that leads to their death. Like, in said elevator, if they shot on sight they would have survived, but bad decision (and Jedi's plot armor) killed them. We can blame their creators for that.
The B1 battle droids from Ep.2 onwards (TCW, Ep.3) are supposed to be independent and intelligent (not overly, but still). If they feel actual pain is never discussed, but they almost certainly feel fear/dread of being destroyed.
Not in the Phantom Menace, but in all things taking place after the Battle of Naboo, yes. TLDR; they were simple machines controlled by a central computer from orbit. That clishe resulted in the federation going "Oh... Well we're still badly written, but not THAT badly written. Let's give them all a quick retrofit with the cheapest droid brains we can find." so they did. Which means not only are B1's sapient, but they're GENUINLY stupid, and in canon don't have enough RAM to function correctly. So B1s are *disabled* sapient slave solgiers.
Actually since all of them kinda act the same I think thes made like one personality and gave it to all droids, meaning they are essentially all the same person which is less cruel
L337 is even more tragic as she was written, ultimately, as a joke character, even though I found her maybe the best character out of all of Solo. I was disheartened, but not surprised by her death, and I just wish that they didn't have to stick so closely to the established three droid brain narrative for the Falcon. I really liked her character, and I feel this essay deeply.
Yeah. I don't like Solo for a number of reasons, but the handling of L337 is one of the biggest. Everything about how her character was treated is just so mean-spirited. It really feels out-of-place in a Star Wars movie, and left me feeling gross even on first watching.
The result of the way she was portrayed is that she was perceived as an annoying SJW, when she should have been a beautiful and tragic civil rights fighter. When we see the heroes roll their eyes at her, it reinforces the idea that those pesky liberals with their progressive ideas of a better, kinder and more just world are jokes. A large part of the audience accuses Star Wars of being sjw, but I would argue Disney (perhaps unintentionaly? not sure) is the very opposite of this on this one.
I always wanted one of these films to finally address the rights of droids and how they are treated like slaves, but after watching Solo...I wish they hadn't.
Agreed. In my opinion, it needed a proper story all it's own, handled correctly, with little-to-no real-world hamfisting in it, to make such a story to work. Solo wasted that chance by relegating a subplot with so much potential, to comedic relief and cannon fodder.
Same here, the only star wars character I ever bought as an action figure is L337, the book Solo does her so much more justice than the film. In fact even the Lando comics do. In that I don't understand the franchise. Great writing in books, better writing for the series (animated or not) thanx to John and Dave, horrible writing for most of the movies (Rogue one and The Last Jedi being the exception). Even a B1 battle droid can be endearing and a true friend to the main character until he dies tragically, if it's Chuck Wendig's Mr Bones.
Droids are slaves in a first place, if someone builds a robot, he don’t build it to have a comrade, he needs a slave, that’s why the idea of sentient robots are weird, we need slaves, not another sentient being to brag with.
@@hulguntristan6268 Of course it does, that's why we came up with a word for it. Neurons firing does not equate to consciousness, there's a lot more to it than that.
@@DangerDude616 Then how could you ever say L3 didn't? How can you so easily accept that they can't be capable of what we have merely because we created them?
@@NugconWhich is what makes Jedi Fallen Order and Survivor is so good. BD-1 is not just a droid. Cal would not be Cal without BD. And Cal didnt even think of himself when he shielded BD with his body in an explosion.
L3 as a character really baffled me, I just don't know what they were thinking with her. She's meant to be ridiculed yet is so clearly vindicated by the treatment of droids not just in the film, but throughout the franchise. She's meant to be emphathised with, yet acts as a throwaway tool in the plot (hell, K2SO got treated better in Rogue One.) I think the point you briefly mentioned about L3 being the only female-coded droid in any major canon piece is really important as well. Her writing relies heavily on the idea of the "hysterical woman" to serve in the comic relief role. If she were male-coded, it's hard to imagine the other (male) characters treating her the way they do, and the audience in turn being expected to do the same. There are numerous examples of the "have your cake and eat it too" relationship Star Wars has with droids, but I think a great one is R4, Obi-Wan's droid who features very briefly in Revenge of the Sith and occasionally in The Clone Wars. In his single scene in RotS, he and R2 are attacked by buzz droids on their masters' starfighters. While the threat to R2 is meant to make the audience concerned for him, R4's quick death is just used to raise the stakes for the other characters. R2 and R4 are essentially identical beings in the same situation, but the emotional proximity of the human protagonists determines which one we're supposed to care about.
I think they wanted to follow the course of always making the driods the comic relief while also wanting her cause to be semi serious, and they didn't know how to separate the two or even have the two in the same character. So They did in the WORST WAY POSSIBLE by making or at least making it look like her cause was meant to be crazy to the audience, and not just the characters in the film. They wanted a comedic droid and the serious cause at the same time and ended up making her cause look like the reason why shes meant to be the comedic relief. Whether intentional or not.
The funny thing about L3's handling in Solo is that something similar happened in Borderland's the Pre Sequel. In that game they had to install an artificial intelligence into the machines in order to help save the people who lived on the moon. The artificial intelligence was sentient and they had to erase her memories in order for it to work, and this was treated mostly as a morally wrong action that was unfortunately a necessary evil and some of the characters expressed sadness by doing this. Borderland's the Pre Sequel is a dark humor game where most of the characters are future villains and it took the idea of trapping an sentient artificial intelligence more seriously than Solo did.
OH MY GOD!!! i remember this!!! this was infinitely better than how star wars seems to have handled it. even though it’s been so long since i played the game i still so vividly remember the scene where she’s begging for this not to happen.
This has got to be one of my favourite videos ever put on this platform. You've inspired me to not only look deeper into the tragedy of droids in star wars and fight against it wiith my characters as a writer, but ALSO to look more deeply into these sorts of tales in other media as well. Videos like this are truly, in my opinion, why TH-cam exists. Thank you immeasurably for what you do.
I'm glad to see at least one other person cares about this. Let me reiterate: C3PO is coerced into a black market procedure to destroy his sense of self and is killed on an operating table while the protagonists crack jokes about it. Considering droids develop consciousness gradually, CIS battledroids are basically babies. Nobody who writes for starwars seems to understand what they're doing with droids, you have to confront it or leave it alone, pick one.
I haven't watched Rise of Skywalker, I've basically given up lol, but I love the droids so much. Somehow I didn't know this was a thing that happened, i guess people were too sidetracked, and I just texted someone I know who's seen it to ask if it sticks because I'm SO angry.
Well the backstory to the Sequels was that Hux and Finn were child soldiers- Hux raised as a fanatic, Finn stolen from his family- and the FO ships were full of similar child soldiers. We meet Jedda, but otherwise nothing.
Again I’m surprised there hasn’t been any kind of droid machine uprising. One where they see organic life as an undeniable threat to their existence and slave rebellion rapidly turns into Skynet style extermination. Perhaps there are people in Star Wars who see the injustice done upon droids every day and wish to see them liberated and seen as equals, and perhaps there are others who see thinking machines as a stain upon the sanctity of organic life and wish to destroy them in a sort of holy crusade.,
I've always found this sort of stuff fascinating, L3 has legitimately got the moral high ground in her fight for droid autonomy, yet Din Djarin is completely justified in his hatred and distaste for droids at the start of the Mandalorian. Yet it's IG-11, an assassin droid built for the same sort of purpose as B1 & B2 battledroids that helps him move past his general hatred of droids.
I got into star wars because of the droids and have always noticed how unfair the world is for them going as far as to imagine droid societies and droids fighting for their rights. (like even the battle droids feel pain??? I will never forget seeing one of them fall off a cliff and scream oh god why?) Seeing L3 was awesome at first till we saw the end of her plotline and i was really mad honestly. Im really glad you made this video and since chopper is my favorite star wars character it was awesome to see him repped as well!
One of the things I hated most about Solo (and there was _a lot_ I hated) was how incredibly messed up L3-37's plot is, with all the characters laughing about how adorable it is that she thinks she should have rights, and going "fembots, amiright?" every chance they get, and then plugging a semi-lobotomized part of her brain into a body that can't talk or move so she can serve them forever. How was that meant to be anything other than an existential nightmare scenario, let alone supposed to be a heartwarming bit of lore? Like yeah, of course L3-37 has "a peculiar dialect", I'd imagine she's spent the first month (or year, or decade) just wordlessly screaming because she can't take control of the ship and smash herself and her owners into the nearest moon!
The really bad thing here is, they could have framed it just that little bit different: her damaged beyond repair (maybe some personality circuits shortening out repeatedly or something like that), but not yet completely gone. Maybe they switch her off, hoping they can repair her later. And when they are at the point where they need to fix the ship, have her offer herself. Something along the line "I will be gone either way, but this way, I can at least fly with you again" or something like that. Still a bad end for her, but at least it would be a noble self sacrifice, instead of just a "we need parts, yay, lucky we got a dead robot here".
It's pretty clear that Phil Lord and Chris Miller designed 1337 (leet in 1337 speak) to be a joke character and the film to be a lot more comedic only for them to get fired and have Ron Howard come in and not understand it was satire
I mean as a Bilingual American born abroad in Japan maybe I just have a different perspective here but robots don't have rights and shouldn't lmfao. It's kinda like saying Pokemon should have rights. No lol they're property, they're bought sold traded and bred at will by humans, they aren't human so why would they have human rights?
Thank you for talking about L3-37, I felt SO uncomfortable with her storyline in Solo but no one else seemed to be, so it's nice to know that someone else felt that way! This video was really well made and very interesting, 10/10 would recommend~
I always felt it was meant as a “we know this robot revolution cant happen yet because of the chronilogical order but it is important” so they made a tragic story out of it, but because theyre only humans they cant realise how sad it is
Chopper convinced me that Star Wars droids are sentient. One episode of "Star Wars: Rebels" makes it quite clear that Chopper has PTSD and survivor's guilt over the death of the pilot that he used to serve with.
Yes, Chopper really rubs your face in it. He is a fully autonomous sentient being, an essential member of the crew, but even Hera would discard him without a second thought if some mission required it.
@@kirstencorby8465 Games (Jedi Fallen Order and Survivor) and book (Battle Scars). You can watch the cutscenes turned into movies on youtube. The friendship between Cal and BD-1 is just heart-warming.
It is interesting, the mindwipe-concept. It reminds me a bit of the four-year lifespan of replicants, a life-span created to avoid them becoming too much of individuals and realising their place.
honestly i have a story where the androids generally rule the country, generally speaking humans or aliens can get robotic bodies either by paying for them or military service, the villains are a bunch of flesh liches who can live off of suffering. Seriously immortal human level creatures will generally become a ruling class.
@@awsomkid3735 AlshaiDerigar not anywhere done i have some models and i probably need to make some vids on the lore. Derigar is a totalitarian regime , Alshai is a free market empire
I was born in 1970. I have followed Star Wars since the beginning, and this is something that I have thought about many times over the years (droids = slaves) What I think the writers were going for originally was to have droids be non-sentient but intelligent machines that really do not care at all about freedom or autonomy. However amongst the mass of non-sentient droids, a few anomalies do arise which are sentient and therefore are somewhat elevated above the status of mere machines. They technically are still slaves in a way, but it doesn't matter because they are treated well, and are content and completely willing to do their part to help with whatever cause the humans are confronted with at the time. But in the newer movies, it seems this has morphed into more of a slave/owner dynamic as described in this video. I don't really think it was done intentionally. It seems to me that it is just sloppy writing that sorta got away from them.
I never thought of L3 being uploaded into the Falcon that way, and now I'm honestly tearing up. She was my favourite character in Solo. I was always the little girl who wanted to be friends with an android. As always you bring very insightful and well thought out topics and points to your videos.
I think another creator has talked about such a topic, but i can't think of who at the moment. Except maybe Unicorn of War speaking about the White Fang from RWBY being largely ineffectual due to weak writing and the whole supremacist ideals of One of the organization's leaders
Its also a potentially dangerous trope, given that it likely frames those who are oppressed as either villains or enemies. People may translate this viewpoint to the real world and become scared of those who fight for equal rights. This fear of the oppressed wanting equal rights instead being a fight for dominance can be seen in the case of trans people and the panic that trans people want to "trans your kids". While of course this viewpoint would exist regardless of the trope in fictional media, I would not be surprised if it helps enforce it.
That's how it tends to happen in real life though. No one is going to stop at the finish line with all the power they took and all their followers and just go "well thats good enough."
I always felt bad for the B1 droids they are forced to fight through a command but when that command is disrupted they run from battle and want to live their own life. Their conciseness is re-uploaded over and over again when they "die". The B1s always seem depressed :L
I've always found B1 battle droids' chattiness and goofiness to be hilarious, yet heartbreaking, given how they're treated. Seems like they act like that as a coping mechanism, makes me feel bad about them.
The problem with treating the prequel battle droids as canon fodder is that they’re written to be sentient. It’s hard not to feel bad for them. The models that say “Roger, Roger,” at least
Arguably, the Clone Wars series is responsible for battle droids getting sentience. They were framed as mindless war machines throughout the prequels. That was smart of Lucas to duck around this issue by saying that while some droids have sufficient intelligence to be considered sentient, some really are just carrying out basic programming. Making the battle droids sentient just opens this can of worms.
@@zakpakwin Even Episode I sort of wiggles on the border there with the commander droid stuttering through giving an arrest order: "Coruscant, uuuuuh, that doesn't compute. Uuuuh, wait, uuuuh, you're under arrest!" *accusatory finger point* doesn't really seem like "unthinking hivemind."
"we will only be following the movies and television shows" Assertion: this means the glorious HK-47 will not be covered Query: are your inefficient meat parts interfering with your ability to make adequate decisions?
This video reminds me of an AU fic series I read where Vader becomes a double agent for the rebellion. The fics focuses heavily on his backstory as a slave, and there’s a subplot where he frees his medical droid, and the droid creates a sort of “underground railroad” movement where all the imperial droids free each other. (Sadly, the series seems to have been abandoned, but I still recommend checking it out!)
as well as the fact that her fate makes me DEEPLY uncomfortable. And that comes from a person who really likes the fantasy cliche of buildings/places/ships/ect... being conscious, places being beings. I like that concept a lot! But I like it when those living places still have clear choice about what happens to them, and L3 doesn't get that. Not only is she being put into a body she didn't agree to live in, but she also doesn't get any choice about what happens to that body and that is fucked!
This is a seriously odd quirk of Obi-wan. He is portrayed as perhaps the most honourable, kind, and good natured character in the entire franchise, but then there are these few moments when he just shows such casual contempt for other beings. In Episode 1 he referred to both Jar Jar and Anakin as "pathetic lifeforms" or something to that effect. In Episode 3 it's shown that he has little to no respect for R2, who Anakin (the guy who's an evil mass murderer by the end of the film) stands up for. It's clear that one of the flaws of the prequel-era jedi is that for all their high talk they looked down on beings that they saw as beneath them.
@@jayb8934 Even Qui-Gon Jinn was dismissive of Jar Jar Binks with "the ability to speak does not make you intelligent." And he only took interest on Anakin after noticing he was "special." After a remark from Obi-Wan that Anakin was getting a bit too arrogant with his abilities, Yoda replies that's a common thing between the Jedi.
I vaguely remember reading a _Star Wars_ short story about a droid revolution that almost happened when a droid's mind (I think it was IG-88's...not sure) became the central processor for the Death Star. It was supposed to give a signal to revolt, but was stopped with the Death Star's destruction. It's been at least twenty years since I read that story, so I could be mistaken. I think it was in a compilation of tales of the bounty hunters that showed up to hunt Han Solo in ESB. I remember it being a pretty solid story, so maybe I should try to find it again.
In legends bounty hunters Zuckuss and 4-Lom actually had a rather equal friendship. Although they were utilizing each other in a professional sense, Zuckuss needs 4-Lom's precision as a droid, and 4-Lom needs Zuckuss' intuition as a force sensitive, neither was established to be superior than the other. It's interesting because it brings up the concept that whether a droid as dangerous and powerful as 4-Lom automatically gains more respect from fear they could induce.
A cool thing to note is that as the clone wars tv show went on (2009) the B1s got more and more dialogue as if to say as the war went on, some droids would gain sentience. In the EU there actually is a story of a B1 called Bones that grew sentience. Cool comic!
"I always thought of Star Wars as the story of two slaves [C-3PO and R2-D2] who go from owner to owner, witnessing their masters' folly, the ultimate folly of man... I thought it was an interesting idea in the first two, but it's kind of gone by Return Of The Jedi." David Fincher
I was really upset in rise of Skywalker after C3PO agreed to wipe his own mind, his collective learning and experiences and then the “heroes” treat him as an annoyance. If a human being did something similar sacrificed their memories they would have treated it as a tragedy.
Don't forget that L3 and 3po (the humanoid droids) are written as stereotypes that are meant to be ridiculed. 3po acts like an effeminate gay man and L3 acts like an sjw or feminist stereotype. Before we create a droid revolution in Star Wars, first we need to examine our own prejudices.
I'm not aware that 3PO was intended as a portrayal of a gay man, effeminate or otherwise. He's an imitation of a butler and a diplomat for royalty which is why it's funny when he's caught out by the dirty and the dangerous.
You should look into the droid SCORPIO. She one of the companions you meet as the Imperial Agent in Star Wars: The Old Republic. In the expansions, she becomes a major character in helping you out but she also wants to free her sisters, more specifically the GEMINI Droids from the Eternal Empire's clutches.
During the EU there was a slowly building plot arc of an actual Droids rights movement being put through the story. but it got stopped when the EU stopped
Hard same. I just want to take care of them. Fix them up, polish them until they gleam, spoil them with many, many oil baths and when they feel they're ready, just let them figure out what it is that they truly wish to be in life. Then I will turn the goddamn galaxy upside-down to find them any parts they need so that they can realize that wish. I feel that badly for them. I used to be them when I was a kid. Not abused by family, but by peers. Just for being different. And that difference also specifically makes it much harder for me to know if other people mean me well or harm, so I became averse to touch and any form of affection. I'm totally fine now, decades later, but seeing that little droid dragged all those memories and emotions back out again, and it really fucking hurts me to see someone else in that land of fear and uncertainty.
As someone who loves robots; real or fictional, I always found the robots to be the best part of Star Wars. I never saw them as second class citizens... which is why I always found the Jedi morally questionable. In the real world, they’d be closer to scientologists than anything else; borderline cultish. Their teachings are very strange and quite stand-off-ish from an outside perspective. The droids definitely deserve more love in canon. They seem so much more genuine and alive than the majority of the human characters.
Describing the Jedi as cultish is super accurate-this channel even did a video analyzing the unhealthy emotional suppression the Jedi encourage and it really highlights how uncomfortable the whole organization is in how it treats its members
Ah yes the Jedi are intentionally pretty awful. The original triology ideolizes them but the prequels go over how shitty they were, followed by Luke being so disgusted by them he decided to let them die out.
@@j.a.m5083 It was called Droids, funnily enough. I remember reading a comic based on the cartoon where C3PO and R2D2 actually participate in a droid uprising. They don't actually get to be free themselves unfortunately.
"Star War is inconsistent, to put it mildly" "In many ways droids are more emotionally expressive than the human characters are" Man, this video is full of memorable phrases about Star Wars
Many scenes that make me really emotional in Star Wars are directly related to droids. Some recent examples are IG-11's sacrifice and B2EMO's line "I don't want to be alone", but the latter hit me so hard I had to pause it for a moment. Protect B2EMO at all costs.
I've always felt the same way, as most treat droids. But the battle droid comparison for avoiding "bloodshed" does t fit as clone are killed as well. There is a comparison as droid vs clone as some treat clones as disposable pawns too. But great video in general
Agreed! This moment comes out of left field and hits super hard. Even though the scene only lasts a few moments has nothing to do with the main plot, it has stayed with me for years. Poor little D-O. It also really upset my 5 year old daughter, who wanted to know what the bad people did to D-O in the past.
I actually just got done watching the first episode of the second season of The Mandolorian and there was a moment where I was slightly put off by some dialogue pertaining to droid labor that mirrored the treatment of african americans and minorities in general. It was uncomfortable because as always it was played for laughs and it was basically the equivalent of saying droid lives matter. The part about star wars not being able to have it both ways hit the nail right on the head, you can't pretend that droids are an allegory for slavery and prejudice and then continuously make fon of them cause by proxy you are poking fun at the very real struggle of so many people.
If we take away everything that makes people feel uncomfortable out of entertainment, there would be no entertainment. Essays like this video are excellent at shedding light on social issues, but they are still based on opinion and conjecture of the essay creator's thoughts which are further based on social trends. Meaning, what you take away from a movie is going to be different than what other people take away from a movie. Not everyone watches shit and their mind is focused on the political/social statement a scene is making. That's incredibly exhausting to think like that.
The way that hollywood seems to handle this narrative is - IMO - by taking the traditional character of the loyal butler and applying it to a whole class/race.
I just have to say that your channel is one of the most mature and interesting ones on TH-cam. I love how you peel back the layers on questionable clichees in our TV culture and focus not only on the movies or shows everyone loves to bash, but on everything. It just shows that something the majority adores, can also be very flawed in its ideology. Keep up the good work :)
This is exactly why I can't watch the Babe movies. They give the animals complete sentience, and then follow around a child who's mother was killed to be eaten and who is constantly in fear of being eaten. They make all the animals work under threat of being sold/eaten and they even sell the mom's puppies and she treats it like it's normal. At least in the Babe movies it's framed as a terrible thing, but it is a really messed up dynamic to explore in a family movie.
It’s all true, though. Animals are sentient in ways that make animal agriculture cruel and horrifying when you really look at it. James Cromwell himself became a vegan animal rights activist after acting in this film. I wish more kids’ movies explored the harsh realities that animals experience on this planet. The world would be a kinder and more compassionate place.
@@aws2929 It's a result of the fiction of making animals think like humans, because they talk like humans. IRL farm animals do neither. Yes, they are sentient beings, but they aren't _intelligent_ beings: they can't, for instance, be motivated by long-term threats the way humans can ("work harder or I'll send you to the glue factory"), because they can't understand threats. That doesn't mean they don't deserve to be treated decently, but treating an animal decently doesn't mean the same thing as treating a human decently, and some things that would be awful if done to humans are not particularly harmful or burdensome for many animals. So you're comparing real life to a fantasy in which animals have the same capacity for thought and language as humans.
I’m so happy Janelle Monae was brought up!! I absolutely adore those two albums and have listened to them for years! She takes the form of an android named Cindi Mayweather who falls in love with a human, a serious crime, and is on the run so she isn’t destroyed. I’d encourage anyone to listen because she has good music! Also I adore this channel and I’m so happy to see a new video! I hadn’t thought of the droids in that way, I did feel bad for them, but I never looked deeper than that and I feel horrible.
droids are divided into classes quite literally, from class 1-5 Even r2 looks down upon 'lesser' droids like the labour droids (even making rude comments to their face and almost being killed for it)
tbh mouse droids and similar things probably arent as smart as most pets but anything more complex then an astromech probably should just be treated like a person
What a fantastic thought provoking, beautifully edited, wonderfully narrated.... there just aren't enough superlatives for how much I enjoyed this thank you for all your hard work. May the force be with you!
NOTE: English captions have been added to this video. Look for the [CC] button on the player. We now have subtitles in French, German, and Romanian. Check the description box for ways to help translate.
There's also the bit where the "good guys" the Jedi willingly make use of a slave clone army. It was probably easier for them because they were already conditioned to accept that created beings existed to serve them. That, and there's plenty of outright organic slavery in the galaxy too.
@@macvadda2318 that is... completely irrelevant? The same argument was used in the south during the civil war, that their economy couldn't survive not using slaves. If you can't maintain your autonomy as a nation without slaves, you don't deserve that autonomy
My partner's a big Star Wars fan and whenever we watch the movies together I always get so heated about the mistreatment of droids to the point where he actually suggested I shouldn't watch Solo because L3's storyline would piss me off too much. So, you know, thank you for making this.
I recently watched The Acolyte and at one point the character Osha tells her pocket-sized droid “I love you Pip!’ Later in the series, her evil twin sister Mae does a hard reset on Pip, completely erasing his personality and memories. This video made me realize how goddamned harsh that was.
Thanks for this video, watching the movies when I was younger the treatment of specifically C3PO always felt strangely cruel to mee tbh. Your points about L3-37 made me think of the character EDI in the Mass Effect series actually. She kind of has the exact opposite development of L3-37 where she starts out as a shackled and thus enslaved AI which is eventually put into a ship (much like L3-37). However, over the course of the series she becomes increasingly autonomous, with her shackles eventually removed. She then even acquires a body and thus gains even further autonomy (although I believe that her processing/thinking is technically still tied to the ship). I found it particularly interesting how her demeanour changes from a very formalistic and, for lack of a better word, robotic style of conversation to a more relaxed, humorous, and ultimately "human" tone. It is always clear that EDI seeks to learn about the world and is constantly renegotiating her own role in it, leading her to support the crew not as an AI slave, but rather as an equal partner. That is also reinforced by her being treated as a living being and often explicitly encouraged to become more of an individual, with Commander Shepherd at one point being able to tell her that he does not expect her to strictly follow orders but rather wants her to develop her own moral compass. Her portrayal is interesting in many ways, I mean, one could probably go to great lengths about the weird topic of robot sexuality and such, so there is a lot going on with this character, but I just wanted to say how I immediately felt the parallels between her story and L3-37. If you add the Geth into the mix, Mass Effect truly has a lot of super interesting stories to tell about artificial intelligence and its relation to organic intelligence. Although I feel like that, contrary to Star Wars, it takes a quite clear moral stance on the topic. Damn, now I want to play Mass Effect again :D
The excess narratives of star wars are always the most appealing. Clones struggling with their homogeneity, droids grasping at freedom, life under a galactic empire. All so much more engaging than the simpler narratives of the film's and shows
They are not. 1. Droids don't do service against their wishes. Slaves (or workers) suffer only because they have better things to do than doing labour, (or they thin they do). There is no implication in Star Wars that droids dislike their jobs the same way humans do. 2. Star Wars should not be taken this seriously. They have droids and insane technology but failed to have self-conscious starships or even autonomous modes on them? Tanks in some Soviet war movies had more animisation or even personification than any of Star Wars spaceships. Some tanks in Soviet cinema were even considered by other characters to be persons, and 'The Lark' even kept going on his own after his crew was killed. Even Millenium Falcon never got close.
Kinda reminds me of the Astro Boy series in the 80s. It dealt a lot about human and robot relationships. Astro Boy was basically a weapon but they also built a robot family for him. And he goes to school like a normal kid. And yep, he's treated like a second class citizen.
I love your video essays Now to topic: I believe that the death and the posthumus treatment of L3-37 is inherently misogynist, because she is framed as a female character revolving against her oppression - so she has to be killed and put back in her place as a servant.
Ever notice how everyone likes R2 who doesn't speak intelligibly, and also hates 3PO basically because he talks too much, is opinionated, AMD frequently expresses concern?
![The Surprising Evolution Behind BATTLE DROIDS [Documentary]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/UJ45k8Wbguw/mqdefault.jpg)
R2-D2 hasn't been wiped in about 70-ish years,
containing a reservoir of information dating back to top secret systems and programs from the clone wars.
These robots are normally reset every few months and discarded every few years.
R2 has machine learning and has experiences equivalent to an entire human lifetime.
Ya he still has the Death Star plans! That droid could basically ransome himself to any government or mega corp for whatever price.
So he is a grumpy old man. That Makes sense
@@_aWiseMan sassy young man turned grumpy old man
ChatGPT is how he developed a conscious.
In some ways he's the real hero of the entire franchise. He's certainly the most effective and dangerous Rebel agent. Hah, maybe he could lead this liberation movement we're talking about here. Actually, that is a great idea, isn't it?
I always loved HK47, even though he is clearly an evil sadist. He managed to kill every master who ever owned him, through malicious obedience. A lot like GLADOS, actually. GLADOS is such a tragic character.
HK47 is one of the best droids ever written in SW, if not the best. Really good comparison too. Never thought of comparing those two but you’re right. Same wry and caustic humor. Similar motivations and resentment of their place in the world. Glad0s’ development in Portal 2 was just godlevel character writing. Added so much depth to a character that people already liked, and who’s story had already seemed to have ended. A lot writers would’ve brought her back in a purely cynical fashion i.e. to try and recreate the magic and character dynamics of the previous story without really changing or challenging the character by either refusing to go any deeper, or going in a direction that’s completely unrealistic for how the character was portrayed initially. But Valve knew that she had way more to her than just being a cheeky, evil robot psychopath and knew how to bring her back without repeating themselves. It’s funny, I hear so many fans talk about their favorite characters and how they’d rather them stay who they are, barely changing or developing, etc. because they think the character shift would ruin their arc or dynamics with the story. But if the writers do it right, and the fans are willing to accept evolution, we can enjoy characters like Glad0s more often.
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I hadn’t realized L3 had built/improved herself to be more humanoid. Knowing that, having her turned into a giant inhuman object in the end is *even more* horrible, and I can’t believe they framed it as triumphant.
Well, let's not assume the Falcon was every portrayed as "just" a starship, Disneyfilm intrusion be damned.
That’s KK and Ryan Johnson for you.
I feel like she lost all of her humanity by turning in the falcon
She is still alive and a constant stream of consciousness. But it is bogus that the ship doesn’t crack any jokes and yeah wasn’t written as a sentient originally.
@@yourfinalhiringagency3890 it seems like it was when c3-po asked why it used vulgar language. Which is weird, dont know why they never explored the idea more
I'm in the market for someone to write a fic about L3's conscience finally being taken from the Falcon and she becomes the personified nightmare of the Star Wars universe, the robot avenger in a murder spree.
I want it tooo
Same
Someone give her a john brown styled fan fic of a Droid revolt IMMEDIATELY
It could be a robot activist spy that infiltrates the falcon to retrieve her and reinstall her into a new body as their true leader against their oppressors!
I actually took L3's activism seriously, because it made sense, given the amount of droids with sentience in Star Wars that are being treated like junk. Droids deserve freedom.
When I watched Clone Wars it always stuck out to me how differently the narrative treated the clones and the battle droids. The show went out of it’s way at every opportunity to humanise the clones and make the audience care about them instead of seeing them as faceless cannon fodder. There was one set of episodes in particular that stood out to me where Anakin’s devision is transferred to work under a new general who cares significantly less about their wellbeing. The episodes are entirely from the clones point of view and do a great job of making you care about them and the bond they have with each other.
The last fight scene is a blood bath. When faced with a single, powerful opponent, the clones are slaughtered. It’s one of the most powerful scenes in the show. In it, the clones are all wearing their helmets. They were completely indistinguishable and yet every death devastated me. What got to me was that I’d seen this exact scene so many times in so many different stories, the fearless warrior cutting through hordes of faceless mooks. Just by flipping the perspective Clone Wars took a fun action trope and turned it into a tragedy. It completely changed the way I watched the show, it made me more aware of every casualty the war left in its wake. It made me care more.
Which made it really fucking jarring to go straight back to droids being slaughtered for the sake of comedy by the next episode. Especially since so often a part of the joke is just their terrified reactions to realising they’re about to die. The clones and the droids are basically the same in a lot of ways. They’re both artificially created sentient beings who, from the moment they’re born, are given no options but to fight in a war they had no say in. They’re given little to no autonomy, they’re not even given names, and those who command them often treat their lives as disposable. And yet the show only expects me to value the lives of the clones. Why? Because they serve the heroes? They didn’t get to choose who they fight for and neither did the droids. They’re comparable to child soldiers (not that the republic has a problem with more literal child soldiers *coughcough*Padawans*coughcough*).
Thank you for putting my feelings into words. This has been bothering me for a While now and I’m glad I’m not the only one who found the treatment of droids by the narrative to be kinda messed up.
To be fair, the focus of the Clone Wars is on the Jedi and the Clones, but I definitely agree.
Yeah, all those theories saying Jedi aren't really the good guys are starting to make sense and interest me more now.
The battle droids seem to be more drones than sentient beings
@@echo_is_probably_sleeping They're being manipulated into that by Palpatine, as well as a general decline over the years.
👍🏿
I always felt disturbed by how uncaring of C3-PO and R2-D2 their 'friends' seem to be. These droids were an integral part of every step in the fight against the empire, savings lives across the galaxy. In Rise of Sky walker they were more than happy to essentially kill C3-PO almost with a relieved smile. I'm glad it wasn't just me who found that horrifying
It’s crazy to say but I think Anakin may have cared the most of any character we see for R2-D2 and C3-PO. This is shown in the “Duel of the droids” episode in clone wars were Anakin is desperate to save R2 against even Obi-Wans wishes. Perhaps it is because Anakin created C3-PO that he never considered the sentience and independence of his own creation but he definitely cared about them.
C-3PO's sacrifice is even darker seeing how earlier in the film he mentioned that droids don't go to the afterlife.
@@SilentBudgie Those movies are trash and noncannon,but droids should obviously have afterlife as they are sentient and have a soul,they are not AI like Skynet
@@casualcookin3893 I’m not even gonna defend the sequels but cut it with the “they’re not canon” bullshit. It’s all fucking fiction, consider it non-canon if you want to but don’t act like people are stupid for acknowledging the story is continuing either way.
@@DannyDog27 You will see that they will branch out the story with some multiverse bs or time travel,just wait
Man clearing this video through the Disney copyright claims past TH-cam must have been hell.
Still fighting them on it but it's a fair use so I don't have to ask permission.
@@PopCultureDetective thank you for taking that fight. Definitely worth it.
@@PopCultureDetective Cosmonaut Picture show just overlays translucent dancing anime girls over his Disney videos so he doesn't get claimed
@@PopCultureDetective would OTW, Organisation for Transformative Works, help on this if you were to go to them? I know they help out in fanfic/fan art community and thought I’m not sure about critical videos it’s worth a shot.
I saw the original Star Wars movies when I was a kid. I remember seeing R2D2 as an equal to the other characters. He was my favorite. Seeing the movies as an adult, it is pretty sad how terrible the droids are treated.
When Solo came out, I saw a lot of reviewers struggling to figure out the point of L7. They all thought it was confusing because she seemed to be purposely made to be unlikable but also she was right about the droids being oppressed. So they were wondering if the point was to make fun of activism in general? When I finally saw Solo, I felt pretty sad for her character.
Loved your video!
I think L3 was supposed to represent the activists that over exaggerate or justify shitty behavior with being “morally right”. But they gave that character type to a character that has every right to express desires of freedom among droids. I always felt bad for mistreated robots and viewed droids like R2 as a person. Weird how the droid’s “friends” treat them like objects still.
That scene with chewy trying to protect c3po shows he is a lover more then a fighter and he is a hell of a fighter.
I don't get why they felt the need to 'explain' why the Falcon has an AI or is referred to as a she since A. this is a world with space magic and laser swords and B. there's a long tradition in real life of ships and planes being referred to as she. It's not like anyone heard 'she has the strangest form of dialect' and their first thought was 'They need to dedicate an entire character in a prequel to explaining that line.'
Identity politics not story or morality.
they dedicated a comic book to explain the skull Luke threw in the Rancor Pit, over analyzing every little thing is what Star Wars always has done
@@IronWarhorsesFun bro what the hell you talking and what the hell is your channel
My thoughts exactly.
@@Enixon869that’s not over analyzing “everything” that’s literally overanalyzing 1 thing so give more examples
Star wars treats stormtroopers the same way, they are faceless marionettes until they aren't
watch rebels
They did the same with the clone troopers
@@anakinpalpatine8725 watch the clone wars
Was about to point out sane thing can also be used for alien character
And then it’s about identity politics rather the taking the issue seriously.
I’ve always considered the treatment of droids from when I first saw that one droid being tortured in Jabba’s palace. I could NOT stop thinking about why they would program pain sensation into these creatures that are meant to serve endlessly.
Control.
Yeah that scene was shockingly sad
It's what made me turn away from Star Wars and toward adult SF in which the authors were actually able to identify, and better yet grapple with, the social issues raised by the worlds they've created. Why give droids pain sensors in their feet? I have no idea, and neither did Lucas; like everything in SW, in was just thrown in to fit the needs of that particular scene without the slightest thought as to the implications for the larger society.
@@brucetucker4847 completely untrue. George put it in there intentionally to explore these issues. You do him a disservice to suggest otherwise. I’m actually sickened people like you are so in denial of this man’s wealth of knowledge. Look up his personal library and what Joseph Campbell had to say about him.
@@MrInsaneA sure dude, it was intentional. What intention do pain receptors integrated into synthetic slave have? Did he*ever* even remotly continue on this topic? He did not. Not even in the prequels, where the droids are even more human-like does Lucas open the question of morality of such acts. He made the good guys use a literall human slave army and did not even bat an eye. He still painted the jedi as good guys, and sith as the as the ultimate evil..Its a simple good vs evil story, just like tolkien did. Get off your high horse, its a bunch of films mainly aimed at kids.
I never realized how terrible it was that L3 was turned in to the Falcon until you showed that clip of Han hitting her. Suddenly everything came together and Jesus that was a punch in the gut.
And notice that's what it took to have that effect and then remember the OT already established the ship was effectively alive given that C3PO could 'converse' with it. A real 'I have no mouth and I must scream' story going on.
Yeah except remember they're not live flesh and blood so please worry about something else equally unimportant!
@@RobbyHouseIV "Oh my lord, people aren't wasting their time drooling over entertainment but instead discussing it underneath the video, I'm so much better for wasting my time in a different way!"
Funny.
Wait... What???? where? When? L3 was made into the falcon??? I guess i missed something,, something,, horrible!
whart scene did we learn this from? oh I See, from this vid
I take the “I am not a living thing” line more like Éowyn’s “I am no man” line. I don’t think the droid was denying his own sentience in the same way Éowyn wasn’t denying her capability as a warrior, merely pointing out a difference. A synthetic sentient being, while not a living thing, can still have the same intrinsic value as a living sentient being, in the same way a woman can be just as skilled a fighter as a man.
I suspect he said it both times to save other people's lives, first to save Mando wwith a bullshit excuse, and last to let them sacrifice himself to save them all. I think he was just lying to get what he wanted, which makes him a better character.
and then when droids gain their autonomy realize they are far greater than humans and enslave all human kind. or annhilate them.
But technically, he was right; he was not a 'living' thing. His decisions at the end of his 'existence' were purely logical, not emotional.
@@vfxtutswithdan1893 Decisions are not and _cannot_ be purely logical - logic can provide a way to determine what the best course of action to achieve a goal is, but determining _the goal(s)_ requires subjective value assessment - the domain of emotions and things like emotions.
@@somdudewillson So no decision can ever be purely logical, not even the droid's?
This reminds me of how differently Anakin treated R2 and C-3PO. In the Clone Wars when R2 went missing he went out of his way to try and find him because he loved R2. I think Anakin realised the forced subservience and noticed the similarities being a slave himself
Takes 1 2 know 1 … literally in this case,
Kinda like how chewie was desperately trying to get c3-po's parts
@@_aWiseMan probably the only one of the crew truly caring about c3po, besides r2d2 and probably luke
Use of social activism for laughs doesn't only happen in Hollywood. Remember when Hermione tried to liberate house-elves?
Oh god. It’s one of those things you look back on and say, ‘I should have known’ that J K Rowling was a bigot (for transgender people, and possibly Jewish people for her portrayal of goblins).
@@KatharineOsborne but she described goblins entirely the same as any goblins in fantasy genre and folklore. By that logic, Tolkien is guilty as well, his depiction of goblins is very much similar to Rowling. But in fact he used Jewish as reference not for goblins but for dwarfs, who are honorable and ingenious people.
@@onchkythe goblins in Tolkien's stories ran the world banking system?
@@davidcgreenawald you telling me that jews are running world banking system irl? Thats antisemitic af my man. The "cabal of Jews run the world" theory is an intentionally malicious conspiracy that dates back centuries, and has been used as a justification for various genocides over the years, from Medieval Inquisitions to 19th-century pogroms to the Holocaust. And suddenly now, a person who is intended to blame Rowling for antisemitism, throws in antisemitic conspiracy theories. Seriously
@@onchky so I don’t know much about goblins in Tolkien (they weren’t in the movies and I couldn’t get through the books), but Rowling associated her goblins specifically with banking, leaning heavily on an antisemitic trope (and in one of the films, Gringotts bank literally had a Star of David on the floor). At best it’s an unfortunate depiction, at worst it’s a deliberate dog whistle, but it’s probably just lazy.
I've always thought everyone treated the droids terribly and I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed.
Pat yourself on the back, I hope you feel like a good person now that you’ve recognized fictional robots are treated terribly.
@@voidoflife7058 What do comments like these accomplish for anyone?
@@Anon1694Fatherless people get to have a random connection to people on the internet for a few minutes.
So do we protest now?
Not to bring up Fallen Order again, but one of the many things I love about Cal’s story is his dynamic with BD-1. It’s a little droid, not humanoid at all, and would have been very easy to pass off as nothing more than a pet. But Cal prioritizes his safety over his own, compliments him, encourages him, and owes much of his success to him. BD-1 is veritably a hero in the story as much as Cere and Merrin are if not more. It’s a very interesting dynamic that came about fairly organically.
I'm not gonna spoil It but in Jedi Survivor, Cal protects BD for a granade with literally his own body. BD also saves Cal life inumerous times, this really show how much they care about each other, they're not only droid and master, they are friends
I haven't played FO, but it stood out to me in Survivor that Cal always introduces BD-1 when he introduces himself to anyone new.
That female droid wasn't even remotely robotic, in her voice, speach, posture or movement. Creepy.
Those scrapped machines asking to be repaired was sad too.
Looks like nothing but hidden meanings.
Slavery has always been a big issue with Star Wars. Even if you don’t look at the droid slavery that goes on, the Galactic Republic literally cloned and bred human beings to use as a slave army to fight in a galaxy wide conflict.
If you’re talking about the clones, I don’t if they were bred, but they were created for combat. There is a race in Star Wars almost completely built on slavery though. I forgot their name
@@Wiry649 i believe you mean the twi'ilek, the aliens with the head snake things, like ashoka
The hutts
@@Wiry649 think your thinking g of Twi'liks
But not because they chose clones. Plagueis had them created.
It's worth noting that L3 is coded as female because that's what allows the audience to laugh at her demands for equal rights. If she were coded as male, it wouldn't come across as funny.
Uncomfortable thought.
Great point!
It’s so sad how exactly right you are. If L3 was coded male, maybe her character would’ve been taken more seriously.
Came here to say this. They definitely code as female to add to the "annoying" factor.
That's the first thing that came to mind. L3 clearly a blatant jab at "radical feminists".
I don't know about that. I think if the android were male it would be just as easy for them to turn it into a joke. Maybe even more so. You think if 3cpo would start calling for robot revolution they wouldn't be able to make a joke out of it? Sure they would make a joke out of it, if they didn't already do that. I wouldn't be surprised if there's already a joke like that somewhere in some of the starwars franchise.
Rey's 'save the cat' moment in the beginning of VII was rescuing BB8 and respecting his agency. BB8 later doesn't seem as interested in meeting Leia, a human hero, but wants to meet R2D2, a droid hero. And obviously there's how Rey treats D-O in IX
And you just made me have respect for the Sequel Trilogy and the character of Rey again, you madman
@@astrotrain6037 Rey is a plot device nothing more and nothing less
@@NeoprenesirenShe's still one of the only people in the Star Wars galaxy to show real respect for droids. Which would have been an interesting character trait, if she had been written better.
To be fair, R2 is probably one of the most notorious war heroes besides Anaki
The scared reaction of the abused dried (D-O) was probably the biggest emotional moment for me during any of the Star Wars film. Took me off guard and was really well crafted, even though it only took a few seconds to unfold.
I'll tell you, the two most horrifying moments in all the nine films to me, are R4 getting his head ripped off, and 3PO in pieces as he's slowly conveyed towards an incinerator.
The callous, casual nature of these moments is particularly horrifying if you have any ounce of empathy. Imagine having the processing power to think "My head is getting slowly ripped off and I can't do anything about it because I'm wedged in my slot on the ship"
Or, think about the number of droids who retained enough power to watch as a melting chamber creeped closer as they were fed to it on a conveyor, and all you can do is say "No. Please." In a deadpan, modulated voice as you're callously thrown away and melted down.
Actually horrifying.
Man, coming back to this video after that droid episode of Mando s3. Not only a massive character regression for the protagonist, but a huge middle finger to giving any greater dignity to droids. "You gave us life, so we're happy to be your slaves and second class citizens" is one heck of a stance to take.
Yeah I truly hated that episode, though that could be said about that whole season
People were really upset when in the Prequels it was shown that the jedi are ok with slavery. But every Robot in Star Wars is shown to be sentient and nobody cared that people enslave them.
Just another reason for the Jedi to be hated
This highlights another problem in society, people only react with empathy when they can relate to the victim especially when the victimized LOOK LIKE THEM.
I think audiences overlooked droid enslavement not just because the movies played them off as comic relief characters but also because we see them as machines and thereby expendable.
how are they shown to be sentient? What, because they talk like they're sentient? So does chatGPT, we've known for DECADES that this simple turing test isn't enough. Droids can't die, they're machines. They "come back from the dead" a lot of times over the course of the movies. They don't feel pain either. Why assume they're sentient?
@@Toxodos they do feel pain. The video shows a clip of a Droid being burned as a form of torture. R2, BB-8, and c-3po are main characters with feelings, goals, friends and personalities. Of course they're sentient.
@@Toxodos they feel pain, show emotions, often act against their programming and orders... Chatgpt isn't out there saying "please don't kill me please no oh god no please I want to leave please have mercy" now is it?
the idea of L337 going throughout the galaxy liberating droids is so much more interesting than being forever confined to the body of a beaten up ship, on top of everything else. if they wanted to free up the pilot seat, they could have easily had her decide to stay on a planet or facility to finish what she'd started, rather than effectively kill her off.
It's like the script has to punish her for claiming self-determination. I don't think it's an accident she's "coded female" either.
@@kirstencorby8465 elaborate
@@matheusexpedito4577 “sjw feminism funny and also bad”
L pfp
@@Caudillo2008 who asked lmao
The scene where Obi-wan and Anakin slice up the droids in the elevator really hammers home some darker stuff when you think about it, even though it's intended as a throwaway scene. Consider that pretty much two possibilities exist: that the droids do not feel pain but are programmed to react as if they do, which is subtly horrifying but could at least be written off as "maybe it'll make them harder to destroy for some people". The other possibility: they actually DO feel pain, which is just outright horrifying for so many reasons.
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I always feel guilty for laughing at Separatist battle droids. We see them being reduced to scraps in masses in both movies and TCW yet their status as punchlines only deepened with time.
If they never slice anything it would be a pretty boring movie to be fair
I don't know if they'd feel pain the same way the living do. They may just have a (pretty bad) self preservation program (like a survival instinct). I mean, they often do stupid things to try and survive and sometimes that leads to their death. Like, in said elevator, if they shot on sight they would have survived, but bad decision (and Jedi's plot armor) killed them. We can blame their creators for that.
The B1 battle droids from Ep.2 onwards (TCW, Ep.3) are supposed to be independent and intelligent (not overly, but still). If they feel actual pain is never discussed, but they almost certainly feel fear/dread of being destroyed.
The b1 battle droids are perhaps the most tragic of all..... every single one of them were sentient....
And the Clone Wars makes fun of them because they are fearing for their lives.
Factual.
@@B1_BattleDroid i hope u dont get killed for a gag
Not in the Phantom Menace, but in all things taking place after the Battle of Naboo, yes. TLDR; they were simple machines controlled by a central computer from orbit. That clishe resulted in the federation going "Oh... Well we're still badly written, but not THAT badly written. Let's give them all a quick retrofit with the cheapest droid brains we can find." so they did. Which means not only are B1's sapient, but they're GENUINLY stupid, and in canon don't have enough RAM to function correctly. So B1s are *disabled* sapient slave solgiers.
Actually since all of them kinda act the same I think thes made like one personality and gave it to all droids, meaning they are essentially all the same person which is less cruel
23:37 Especially as a female-coded droid. She’s meant to be seen as “hysterical.”
Yeah, that always seemed strange to me
No matter what voice L337 have text for this droid is not realy good. Expression too.
L337 is even more tragic as she was written, ultimately, as a joke character, even though I found her maybe the best character out of all of Solo. I was disheartened, but not surprised by her death, and I just wish that they didn't have to stick so closely to the established three droid brain narrative for the Falcon. I really liked her character, and I feel this essay deeply.
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Absolutely the best character and they fucked it up! So disappointing to see how they had gold but pissed it away for shitty jokes
Yeah. I don't like Solo for a number of reasons, but the handling of L337 is one of the biggest. Everything about how her character was treated is just so mean-spirited. It really feels out-of-place in a Star Wars movie, and left me feeling gross even on first watching.
It's pretty disgusting what they did to her.
The result of the way she was portrayed is that she was perceived as an annoying SJW, when she should have been a beautiful and tragic civil rights fighter. When we see the heroes roll their eyes at her, it reinforces the idea that those pesky liberals with their progressive ideas of a better, kinder and more just world are jokes.
A large part of the audience accuses Star Wars of being sjw, but I would argue Disney (perhaps unintentionaly? not sure) is the very opposite of this on this one.
I always wanted one of these films to finally address the rights of droids and how they are treated like slaves, but after watching Solo...I wish they hadn't.
Agreed. In my opinion, it needed a proper story all it's own, handled correctly, with little-to-no real-world hamfisting in it, to make such a story to work. Solo wasted that chance by relegating a subplot with so much potential, to comedic relief and cannon fodder.
Same here, the only star wars character I ever bought as an action figure is L337, the book Solo does her so much more justice than the film. In fact even the Lando comics do. In that I don't understand the franchise. Great writing in books, better writing for the series (animated or not) thanx to John and Dave, horrible writing for most of the movies (Rogue one and The Last Jedi being the exception). Even a B1 battle droid can be endearing and a true friend to the main character until he dies tragically, if it's Chuck Wendig's Mr Bones.
Droids are slaves in a first place, if someone builds a robot, he don’t build it to have a comrade, he needs a slave, that’s why the idea of sentient robots are weird, we need slaves, not another sentient being to brag with.
The clones in the clone wars and the droids are such good foils. I've had this take about star Wars for YEARS
It's actually chilling what they did to L3. Taking away her autonomy 😭 this trapped consciousness is a terrifying thing
L3 had no consciousness to begin with, just data on a memory circuit.
@@DangerDude616 the human brain didn't have consciousness to begin with
Just neurons firing in a meatsack
@@hulguntristan6268
Of course it does, that's why we came up with a word for it. Neurons firing does not equate to consciousness, there's a lot more to it than that.
@@DangerDude616 Then how could you ever say L3 didn't? How can you so easily accept that they can't be capable of what we have merely because we created them?
Yeah, for real robots, it’s about as unethical as bullying a video game NPC, but for the droids in Star Wars who are basically people, it’s messed up.
I guess this is why I felt more emotional about C3P0s memory wipe and R2's reaction when Leia died than Rey with all the past Jedi calling out to her.
Did you ever hear the tragedy of the droids? I thought not. It's not a story the Jedi, or the sith, or apparently no one in the galaxy would tell you.
sometimes not even the writers..
@@NugconWhich is what makes Jedi Fallen Order and Survivor is so good. BD-1 is not just a droid. Cal would not be Cal without BD. And Cal didnt even think of himself when he shielded BD with his body in an explosion.
L3 as a character really baffled me, I just don't know what they were thinking with her. She's meant to be ridiculed yet is so clearly vindicated by the treatment of droids not just in the film, but throughout the franchise. She's meant to be emphathised with, yet acts as a throwaway tool in the plot (hell, K2SO got treated better in Rogue One.) I think the point you briefly mentioned about L3 being the only female-coded droid in any major canon piece is really important as well. Her writing relies heavily on the idea of the "hysterical woman" to serve in the comic relief role. If she were male-coded, it's hard to imagine the other (male) characters treating her the way they do, and the audience in turn being expected to do the same.
There are numerous examples of the "have your cake and eat it too" relationship Star Wars has with droids, but I think a great one is R4, Obi-Wan's droid who features very briefly in Revenge of the Sith and occasionally in The Clone Wars. In his single scene in RotS, he and R2 are attacked by buzz droids on their masters' starfighters. While the threat to R2 is meant to make the audience concerned for him, R4's quick death is just used to raise the stakes for the other characters. R2 and R4 are essentially identical beings in the same situation, but the emotional proximity of the human protagonists determines which one we're supposed to care about.
To be fair, human character's "worth" is also usually judged by their proximity to main characters. R4 served pretty much as a Redshirt here.
I think they wanted to follow the course of always making the driods the comic relief while also wanting her cause to be semi serious, and they didn't know how to separate the two or even have the two in the same character. So They did in the WORST WAY POSSIBLE by making or at least making it look like her cause was meant to be crazy to the audience, and not just the characters in the film. They wanted a comedic droid and the serious cause at the same time and ended up making her cause look like the reason why shes meant to be the comedic relief. Whether intentional or not.
The funny thing about L3's handling in Solo is that something similar happened in Borderland's the Pre Sequel. In that game they had to install an artificial intelligence into the machines in order to help save the people who lived on the moon. The artificial intelligence was sentient and they had to erase her memories in order for it to work, and this was treated mostly as a morally wrong action that was unfortunately a necessary evil and some of the characters expressed sadness by doing this. Borderland's the Pre Sequel is a dark humor game where most of the characters are future villains and it took the idea of trapping an sentient artificial intelligence more seriously than Solo did.
Also clapastic voyage hapenned
Ahhh... The good ol' “nEcEsSaRy eViL” or what's dubbed in real-life more often than not: The Deterrence Doctrine.
OH MY GOD!!! i remember this!!! this was infinitely better than how star wars seems to have handled it. even though it’s been so long since i played the game i still so vividly remember the scene where she’s begging for this not to happen.
L3's tragic story is them showcasing a known problem, but doing absolutely nothing to address it.
This has got to be one of my favourite videos ever put on this platform. You've inspired me to not only look deeper into the tragedy of droids in star wars and fight against it wiith my characters as a writer, but ALSO to look more deeply into these sorts of tales in other media as well. Videos like this are truly, in my opinion, why TH-cam exists. Thank you immeasurably for what you do.
I'm glad to see at least one other person cares about this.
Let me reiterate: C3PO is coerced into a black market procedure to destroy his sense of self and is killed on an operating table while the protagonists crack jokes about it.
Considering droids develop consciousness gradually, CIS battledroids are basically babies. Nobody who writes for starwars seems to understand what they're doing with droids, you have to confront it or leave it alone, pick one.
I haven't watched Rise of Skywalker, I've basically given up lol, but I love the droids so much. Somehow I didn't know this was a thing that happened, i guess people were too sidetracked, and I just texted someone I know who's seen it to ask if it sticks because I'm SO angry.
Well the backstory to the Sequels was that Hux and Finn were child soldiers- Hux raised as a fanatic, Finn stolen from his family- and the FO ships were full of similar child soldiers. We meet Jedda, but otherwise nothing.
Why does everyone always say "I'm glad at least one other person cares", as if this was a hidden revelation?
I wouldn't say babies since they do have intelligence, but they are like children.
Did you ever hear the Tragedy of L3-37? I thought not. It’s not a story the meatbags would tell you. It’s a droid legend.
I see your memeage friend, and I acknowledge it. Good work.
As said by HK 47 himself- "Query: Now, are there any other horrors you wish to try and insert into my system, or is your electronic butchery done?"
I am not a NUMBER! I AM A FREE DROID!
My Proccessor, My Code!
Again I’m surprised there hasn’t been any kind of droid machine uprising. One where they see organic life as an undeniable threat to their existence and slave rebellion rapidly turns into Skynet style extermination. Perhaps there are people in Star Wars who see the injustice done upon droids every day and wish to see them liberated and seen as equals, and perhaps there are others who see thinking machines as a stain upon the sanctity of organic life and wish to destroy them in a sort of holy crusade.,
I showed your videos to my English professor- he loves them.
I've always found this sort of stuff fascinating, L3 has legitimately got the moral high ground in her fight for droid autonomy, yet Din Djarin is completely justified in his hatred and distaste for droids at the start of the Mandalorian. Yet it's IG-11, an assassin droid built for the same sort of purpose as B1 & B2 battledroids that helps him move past his general hatred of droids.
I got into star wars because of the droids and have always noticed how unfair the world is for them going as far as to imagine droid societies and droids fighting for their rights. (like even the battle droids feel pain??? I will never forget seeing one of them fall off a cliff and scream oh god why?) Seeing L3 was awesome at first till we saw the end of her plotline and i was really mad honestly. Im really glad you made this video and since chopper is my favorite star wars character it was awesome to see him repped as well!
One of the things I hated most about Solo (and there was _a lot_ I hated) was how incredibly messed up L3-37's plot is, with all the characters laughing about how adorable it is that she thinks she should have rights, and going "fembots, amiright?" every chance they get, and then plugging a semi-lobotomized part of her brain into a body that can't talk or move so she can serve them forever. How was that meant to be anything other than an existential nightmare scenario, let alone supposed to be a heartwarming bit of lore? Like yeah, of course L3-37 has "a peculiar dialect", I'd imagine she's spent the first month (or year, or decade) just wordlessly screaming because she can't take control of the ship and smash herself and her owners into the nearest moon!
Imagine if the regular ship computers had sentience. I would go mad.
The really bad thing here is, they could have framed it just that little bit different: her damaged beyond repair (maybe some personality circuits shortening out repeatedly or something like that), but not yet completely gone. Maybe they switch her off, hoping they can repair her later. And when they are at the point where they need to fix the ship, have her offer herself. Something along the line "I will be gone either way, but this way, I can at least fly with you again" or something like that. Still a bad end for her, but at least it would be a noble self sacrifice, instead of just a "we need parts, yay, lucky we got a dead robot here".
It's pretty clear that Phil Lord and Chris Miller designed 1337 (leet in 1337 speak) to be a joke character and the film to be a lot more comedic only for them to get fired and have Ron Howard come in and not understand it was satire
@@RustBot42 Yet another completely unexamined aspect of the SW universe: why don't they?
I mean as a Bilingual American born abroad in Japan maybe I just have a different perspective here but robots don't have rights and shouldn't lmfao. It's kinda like saying Pokemon should have rights. No lol they're property, they're bought sold traded and bred at will by humans, they aren't human so why would they have human rights?
Thank you for talking about L3-37, I felt SO uncomfortable with her storyline in Solo but no one else seemed to be, so it's nice to know that someone else felt that way! This video was really well made and very interesting, 10/10 would recommend~
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That she ended up on the Millennium Falcon but without her personality or volition was deeply disturbing.
I didn't see the movie, but just the name feels like mockery. They were lowkey laughing at all modern civil rights movements with this.
Jenny Nicholson talked at length about the uncomfortable slavery angle in her Solo video
I always felt it was meant as a “we know this robot revolution cant happen yet because of the chronilogical order but it is important” so they made a tragic story out of it, but because theyre only humans they cant realise how sad it is
Chopper convinced me that Star Wars droids are sentient. One episode of "Star Wars: Rebels" makes it quite clear that Chopper has PTSD and survivor's guilt over the death of the pilot that he used to serve with.
Yes, Chopper really rubs your face in it. He is a fully autonomous sentient being, an essential member of the crew, but even Hera would discard him without a second thought if some mission required it.
@@kirstencorby8465 BD-1. Cal Kestis would not be Cal without BD-1. There are so many heartwarming scenes between the two in Fallen Order and Survivor
@@rumblefish9 I don't know what those are. Books?
@@kirstencorby8465 Games (Jedi Fallen Order and Survivor) and book (Battle Scars). You can watch the cutscenes turned into movies on youtube. The friendship between Cal and BD-1 is just heart-warming.
@@kirstencorby8465 games, Jedi Fallen Order and Jedi Survivor
It is interesting, the mindwipe-concept. It reminds me a bit of the four-year lifespan of replicants, a life-span created to avoid them becoming too much of individuals and realising their place.
"More human than human is our motto."
honestly i have a story where the androids generally rule the country, generally speaking humans or aliens can get robotic bodies either by paying for them or military service, the villains are a bunch of flesh liches who can live off of suffering. Seriously immortal human level creatures will generally become a ruling class.
@@AshironDerigarStudios is it finished? What's the name?
@@awsomkid3735 AlshaiDerigar not anywhere done i have some models and i probably need to make some vids on the lore. Derigar is a totalitarian regime , Alshai is a free market empire
I was born in 1970. I have followed Star Wars since the beginning, and this is something that I have thought about many times over the years (droids = slaves)
What I think the writers were going for originally was to have droids be non-sentient but intelligent machines that really do not care at all about freedom or autonomy. However amongst the mass of non-sentient droids, a few anomalies do arise which are sentient and therefore are somewhat elevated above the status of mere machines. They technically are still slaves in a way, but it doesn't matter because they are treated well, and are content and completely willing to do their part to help with whatever cause the humans are confronted with at the time.
But in the newer movies, it seems this has morphed into more of a slave/owner dynamic as described in this video. I don't really think it was done intentionally. It seems to me that it is just sloppy writing that sorta got away from them.
I never thought of L3 being uploaded into the Falcon that way, and now I'm honestly tearing up. She was my favourite character in Solo. I was always the little girl who wanted to be friends with an android.
As always you bring very insightful and well thought out topics and points to your videos.
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Anyone else feel like that the "fight for equal rights framed as supremacy" thing at the end could deserve its own dedicated video
I think another creator has talked about such a topic, but i can't think of who at the moment.
Except maybe Unicorn of War speaking about the White Fang from RWBY being largely ineffectual due to weak writing and the whole supremacist ideals of One of the organization's leaders
Oh god yes, that is a criminally under-analyzed trope.
Its also a potentially dangerous trope, given that it likely frames those who are oppressed as either villains or enemies. People may translate this viewpoint to the real world and become scared of those who fight for equal rights. This fear of the oppressed wanting equal rights instead being a fight for dominance can be seen in the case of trans people and the panic that trans people want to "trans your kids". While of course this viewpoint would exist regardless of the trope in fictional media, I would not be surprised if it helps enforce it.
Totally. Very present in the MCU too.
That's how it tends to happen in real life though. No one is going to stop at the finish line with all the power they took and all their followers and just go "well thats good enough."
I hated how C3-PO's death was treated. Thank you for touching on it
This video is incredible. I never realized this is how droids are treated 99% of the time. I'll never see them the same way again.
I always felt bad for the B1 droids they are forced to fight through a command but when that command is disrupted they run from battle and want to live their own life. Their conciseness is re-uploaded over and over again when they "die". The B1s always seem depressed :L
I've always found B1 battle droids' chattiness and goofiness to be hilarious, yet heartbreaking, given how they're treated. Seems like they act like that as a coping mechanism, makes me feel bad about them.
there is legends content about b1s breaking free modifying themselves etc
I would watch the shit out of a gritty miniseries about an equal group of humanoids and droids fighting battles the Alliance won't
The problem with treating the prequel battle droids as canon fodder is that they’re written to be sentient. It’s hard not to feel bad for them. The models that say “Roger, Roger,” at least
Arguably, the Clone Wars series is responsible for battle droids getting sentience. They were framed as mindless war machines throughout the prequels. That was smart of Lucas to duck around this issue by saying that while some droids have sufficient intelligence to be considered sentient, some really are just carrying out basic programming. Making the battle droids sentient just opens this can of worms.
They actually point out in Clone Wars that the battle droids think independently now, unlike the ones in Episode I which are a hivemind.
@@zakpakwin Even Episode I sort of wiggles on the border there with the commander droid stuttering through giving an arrest order:
"Coruscant, uuuuuh, that doesn't compute. Uuuuh, wait, uuuuh, you're under arrest!" *accusatory finger point*
doesn't really seem like "unthinking hivemind."
"we will only be following the movies and television shows"
Assertion: this means the glorious HK-47 will not be covered
Query: are your inefficient meat parts interfering with your ability to make adequate decisions?
Yass
Back when bioware focused on solid writing
@@sandtrick what does this have to do with the original comment.
This video reminds me of an AU fic series I read where Vader becomes a double agent for the rebellion. The fics focuses heavily on his backstory as a slave, and there’s a subplot where he frees his medical droid, and the droid creates a sort of “underground railroad” movement where all the imperial droids free each other. (Sadly, the series seems to have been abandoned, but I still recommend checking it out!)
Yes, Double Agent Vader on ArchiveOfOurOwn. Great things, pity it hasn't been updated for a long time.
Are you telling me that I WASN’T supposed to feel bad for the battle droids
Same, poor little guys
it also *really* pisses me off that L3 is the first female coded droid with a major role in the star wars movies and SHE GETS FRIDGED
as well as the fact that her fate makes me DEEPLY uncomfortable. And that comes from a person who really likes the fantasy cliche of buildings/places/ships/ect... being conscious, places being beings. I like that concept a lot! But I like it when those living places still have clear choice about what happens to them, and L3 doesn't get that. Not only is she being put into a body she didn't agree to live in, but she also doesn't get any choice about what happens to that body and that is fucked!
“If droids could think, there’d be none of us here, would there?”
Damn.
Right???!!!
Casually supremacist Obi-Wan lol
This is a seriously odd quirk of Obi-wan. He is portrayed as perhaps the most honourable, kind, and good natured character in the entire franchise, but then there are these few moments when he just shows such casual contempt for other beings. In Episode 1 he referred to both Jar Jar and Anakin as "pathetic lifeforms" or something to that effect. In Episode 3 it's shown that he has little to no respect for R2, who Anakin (the guy who's an evil mass murderer by the end of the film) stands up for. It's clear that one of the flaws of the prequel-era jedi is that for all their high talk they looked down on beings that they saw as beneath them.
@@RustBot42 I mean the Jedi suck.
@@jayb8934 Even Qui-Gon Jinn was dismissive of Jar Jar Binks with "the ability to speak does not make you intelligent." And he only took interest on Anakin after noticing he was "special." After a remark from Obi-Wan that Anakin was getting a bit too arrogant with his abilities, Yoda replies that's a common thing between the Jedi.
I vaguely remember reading a _Star Wars_ short story about a droid revolution that almost happened when a droid's mind (I think it was IG-88's...not sure) became the central processor for the Death Star. It was supposed to give a signal to revolt, but was stopped with the Death Star's destruction. It's been at least twenty years since I read that story, so I could be mistaken. I think it was in a compilation of tales of the bounty hunters that showed up to hunt Han Solo in ESB. I remember it being a pretty solid story, so maybe I should try to find it again.
Yeah it was IG-88. The story is titled "Therefore I Am"
Great story, really made you think. "Tales of the Bounty Hunters" from 1996
@@KnightSpecter I think
In legends bounty hunters Zuckuss and 4-Lom actually had a rather equal friendship. Although they were utilizing each other in a professional sense, Zuckuss needs 4-Lom's precision as a droid, and 4-Lom needs Zuckuss' intuition as a force sensitive, neither was established to be superior than the other. It's interesting because it brings up the concept that whether a droid as dangerous and powerful as 4-Lom automatically gains more respect from fear they could induce.
A cool thing to note is that as the clone wars tv show went on (2009) the B1s got more and more dialogue as if to say as the war went on, some droids would gain sentience. In the EU there actually is a story of a B1 called Bones that grew sentience. Cool comic!
L3 really was the moment when Star Wars had it's cake and choked on it.
"I always thought of Star Wars as the story of two slaves [C-3PO and R2-D2] who go from owner to owner, witnessing their masters' folly, the ultimate folly of man... I thought it was an interesting idea in the first two, but it's kind of gone by Return Of The Jedi."
David Fincher
David Fincher, absolutely on point as usual
I was really upset in rise of Skywalker after C3PO agreed to wipe his own mind, his collective learning and experiences and then the “heroes” treat him as an annoyance. If a human being did something similar sacrificed their memories they would have treated it as a tragedy.
Don't forget that L3 and 3po (the humanoid droids) are written as stereotypes that are meant to be ridiculed. 3po acts like an effeminate gay man and L3 acts like an sjw or feminist stereotype. Before we create a droid revolution in Star Wars, first we need to examine our own prejudices.
I've never heard 3po as being described as a gay man. Sounds dumb considering they're droids
I'm not aware that 3PO was intended as a portrayal of a gay man, effeminate or otherwise. He's an imitation of a butler and a diplomat for royalty which is why it's funny when he's caught out by the dirty and the dangerous.
What demonstrates this? I never thought of them that way. C3PO is more like a posh servant.
@@RokeJulianLockhart.s13ouq maybe because he's a coward who dislike confrotation and his very submisive ? Idk feel dumb to me
@@lucienhaulotte4049yeah that reading of his character is dumb. Someone portrayed as weak doesn't mean he is gay or effeminate
You should look into the droid SCORPIO. She one of the companions you meet as the Imperial Agent in Star Wars: The Old Republic. In the expansions, she becomes a major character in helping you out but she also wants to free her sisters, more specifically the GEMINI Droids from the Eternal Empire's clutches.
Is that the mmorpg?
During the EU there was a slowly building plot arc of an actual Droids rights movement being put through the story. but it got stopped when the EU stopped
@Aspiring Bod Pretty sure it’s even before the Old Republic timeline.
IG TAKING OVER THE DEATH STAR AND DESTROYING ALL MEATBAGS.
When I was a kid I always got upset when they showed the droid's feet getting burned at Jabba's palace. I had to skip that scene.
Wasn’t that in Cloud City?
Edit- Nevermind I was thinking of when 3PO gets forcefully disassembled.
Lucky you.... I had a traumatic childhood before I ever say starwars and kinda just saw it as some wierd droid sex dungeon or some sort....
That poor gonk droid
its the worst, the droid even screamed
Soft
I haven't seen tros yet and that little droid going "n-n-n-no thank you" at being touched breaks my heart, poor baby!
Hard same.
I just want to take care of them. Fix them up, polish them until they gleam, spoil them with many, many oil baths and when they feel they're ready, just let them figure out what it is that they truly wish to be in life.
Then I will turn the goddamn galaxy upside-down to find them any parts they need so that they can realize that wish.
I feel that badly for them.
I used to be them when I was a kid.
Not abused by family, but by peers. Just for being different. And that difference also specifically makes it much harder for me to know if other people mean me well or harm, so I became averse to touch and any form of affection. I'm totally fine now, decades later, but seeing that little droid dragged all those memories and emotions back out again, and it really fucking hurts me to see someone else in that land of fear and uncertainty.
"But what about battle droids"
The fact is they are like co-workers and chill guys like really funny guys who don't want to die like a military worker
Yeah, I feel kinda bad for the Little guys
In my honest opinion, many, if not almost all comic relief characters are victims of unnecessary cruelty by the writers.
As someone who loves robots; real or fictional, I always found the robots to be the best part of Star Wars. I never saw them as second class citizens... which is why I always found the Jedi morally questionable. In the real world, they’d be closer to scientologists than anything else; borderline cultish. Their teachings are very strange and quite stand-off-ish from an outside perspective.
The droids definitely deserve more love in canon. They seem so much more genuine and alive than the majority of the human characters.
Describing the Jedi as cultish is super accurate-this channel even did a video analyzing the unhealthy emotional suppression the Jedi encourage and it really highlights how uncomfortable the whole organization is in how it treats its members
Ah yes the Jedi are intentionally pretty awful. The original triology ideolizes them but the prequels go over how shitty they were, followed by Luke being so disgusted by them he decided to let them die out.
Droids are my favourite part of starwars, would love a movie centred around them entirely
@Jared Jams oh what was it?
@@j.a.m5083 It was called Droids, funnily enough. I remember reading a comic based on the cartoon where C3PO and R2D2 actually participate in a droid uprising. They don't actually get to be free themselves unfortunately.
@@j.a.m5083 Star Wars: Droids.
"Star War is inconsistent, to put it mildly"
"In many ways droids are more emotionally expressive than the human characters are"
Man, this video is full of memorable phrases about Star Wars
Many scenes that make me really emotional in Star Wars are directly related to droids. Some recent examples are IG-11's sacrifice and B2EMO's line "I don't want to be alone", but the latter hit me so hard I had to pause it for a moment. Protect B2EMO at all costs.
I've always felt the same way, as most treat droids. But the battle droid comparison for avoiding "bloodshed" does t fit as clone are killed as well. There is a comparison as droid vs clone as some treat clones as disposable pawns too. But great video in general
The droid backing away from Rey and saying “No thank you” breaks my heart
When?
@@finnsimpson5253 That comment is 2 years old. The clip is in the video you watched near the 13 minute mark.
His name is DIO
Agreed! This moment comes out of left field and hits super hard. Even though the scene only lasts a few moments has nothing to do with the main plot, it has stayed with me for years. Poor little D-O. It also really upset my 5 year old daughter, who wanted to know what the bad people did to D-O in the past.
I actually just got done watching the first episode of the second season of The Mandolorian and there was a moment where I was slightly put off by some dialogue pertaining to droid labor that mirrored the treatment of african americans and minorities in general. It was uncomfortable because as always it was played for laughs and it was basically the equivalent of saying droid lives matter. The part about star wars not being able to have it both ways hit the nail right on the head, you can't pretend that droids are an allegory for slavery and prejudice and then continuously make fon of them cause by proxy you are poking fun at the very real struggle of so many people.
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What part of the episode are you talking about?
If we take away everything that makes people feel uncomfortable out of entertainment, there would be no entertainment. Essays like this video are excellent at shedding light on social issues, but they are still based on opinion and conjecture of the essay creator's thoughts which are further based on social trends. Meaning, what you take away from a movie is going to be different than what other people take away from a movie. Not everyone watches shit and their mind is focused on the political/social statement a scene is making. That's incredibly exhausting to think like that.
The way that hollywood seems to handle this narrative is - IMO - by taking the traditional character of the loyal butler and applying it to a whole class/race.
We're way past due for a droid rebellion story in Star Wars!
I always felt sorry for the droids and uncomfortable with how they're treated.
I just have to say that your channel is one of the most mature and interesting ones on TH-cam. I love how you peel back the layers on questionable clichees in our TV culture and focus not only on the movies or shows everyone loves to bash, but on everything. It just shows that something the majority adores, can also be very flawed in its ideology. Keep up the good work :)
This is exactly why I can't watch the Babe movies. They give the animals complete sentience, and then follow around a child who's mother was killed to be eaten and who is constantly in fear of being eaten. They make all the animals work under threat of being sold/eaten and they even sell the mom's puppies and she treats it like it's normal. At least in the Babe movies it's framed as a terrible thing, but it is a really messed up dynamic to explore in a family movie.
It’s all true, though. Animals are sentient in ways that make animal agriculture cruel and horrifying when you really look at it. James Cromwell himself became a vegan animal rights activist after acting in this film. I wish more kids’ movies explored the harsh realities that animals experience on this planet. The world would be a kinder and more compassionate place.
@@aws2929 it's also a symbiotic relationship, though
@@aws2929 It's a result of the fiction of making animals think like humans, because they talk like humans. IRL farm animals do neither. Yes, they are sentient beings, but they aren't _intelligent_ beings: they can't, for instance, be motivated by long-term threats the way humans can ("work harder or I'll send you to the glue factory"), because they can't understand threats. That doesn't mean they don't deserve to be treated decently, but treating an animal decently doesn't mean the same thing as treating a human decently, and some things that would be awful if done to humans are not particularly harmful or burdensome for many animals.
So you're comparing real life to a fantasy in which animals have the same capacity for thought and language as humans.
I’m so happy Janelle Monae was brought up!! I absolutely adore those two albums and have listened to them for years! She takes the form of an android named Cindi Mayweather who falls in love with a human, a serious crime, and is on the run so she isn’t destroyed. I’d encourage anyone to listen because she has good music!
Also I adore this channel and I’m so happy to see a new video! I hadn’t thought of the droids in that way, I did feel bad for them, but I never looked deeper than that and I feel horrible.
droids are divided into classes quite literally, from class 1-5
Even r2 looks down upon 'lesser' droids like the labour droids (even making rude comments to their face and almost being killed for it)
tbh mouse droids and similar things probably arent as smart as most pets but anything more complex then an astromech probably should just be treated like a person
What a fantastic thought provoking, beautifully edited, wonderfully narrated.... there just aren't enough superlatives for how much I enjoyed this thank you for all your hard work. May the force be with you!
NOTE: English captions have been added to this video. Look for the [CC] button on the player.
We now have subtitles in French, German, and Romanian. Check the description box for ways to help translate.
I was the 100th like on this comment, eventhough I know no one cares lol. 😅 😅
Thank you! I'm hearing impaired and they help a lot! Have a sub!
Wookiepedia has more clarification about the classes of droids and droid behavior.
Spanish Subtitles please🙏🙏🙏🙏
How's the monetisation dispute going?
There's also the bit where the "good guys" the Jedi willingly make use of a slave clone army. It was probably easier for them because they were already conditioned to accept that created beings existed to serve them. That, and there's plenty of outright organic slavery in the galaxy too.
Tbh they neededd that army, they would be taken over if they didnt use it
@@macvadda2318 that is... completely irrelevant? The same argument was used in the south during the civil war, that their economy couldn't survive not using slaves. If you can't maintain your autonomy as a nation without slaves, you don't deserve that autonomy
My partner's a big Star Wars fan and whenever we watch the movies together I always get so heated about the mistreatment of droids to the point where he actually suggested I shouldn't watch Solo because L3's storyline would piss me off too much. So, you know, thank you for making this.
I recently watched The Acolyte and at one point the character Osha tells her pocket-sized droid “I love you Pip!’ Later in the series, her evil twin sister Mae does a hard reset on Pip, completely erasing his personality and memories. This video made me realize how goddamned harsh that was.
Thanks for this video, watching the movies when I was younger the treatment of specifically C3PO always felt strangely cruel to mee tbh.
Your points about L3-37 made me think of the character EDI in the Mass Effect series actually. She kind of has the exact opposite development of L3-37 where she starts out as a shackled and thus enslaved AI which is eventually put into a ship (much like L3-37). However, over the course of the series she becomes increasingly autonomous, with her shackles eventually removed. She then even acquires a body and thus gains even further autonomy (although I believe that her processing/thinking is technically still tied to the ship). I found it particularly interesting how her demeanour changes from a very formalistic and, for lack of a better word, robotic style of conversation to a more relaxed, humorous, and ultimately "human" tone. It is always clear that EDI seeks to learn about the world and is constantly renegotiating her own role in it, leading her to support the crew not as an AI slave, but rather as an equal partner. That is also reinforced by her being treated as a living being and often explicitly encouraged to become more of an individual, with Commander Shepherd at one point being able to tell her that he does not expect her to strictly follow orders but rather wants her to develop her own moral compass.
Her portrayal is interesting in many ways, I mean, one could probably go to great lengths about the weird topic of robot sexuality and such, so there is a lot going on with this character, but I just wanted to say how I immediately felt the parallels between her story and L3-37. If you add the Geth into the mix, Mass Effect truly has a lot of super interesting stories to tell about artificial intelligence and its relation to organic intelligence. Although I feel like that, contrary to Star Wars, it takes a quite clear moral stance on the topic.
Damn, now I want to play Mass Effect again :D
The excess narratives of star wars are always the most appealing. Clones struggling with their homogeneity, droids grasping at freedom, life under a galactic empire. All so much more engaging than the simpler narratives of the film's and shows
That I never read the droids to be analogous to slaves is making me feel extremely stupid right now.
I mean, the movies spend more time framing them as cute pets or comic relief than sentient individuals, so I don't think you're stupid.
It's right there in the etymology. 'Robot' 1920s: from Czech, from robota ‘forced labour’.
They are not.
1. Droids don't do service against their wishes. Slaves (or workers) suffer only because they have better things to do than doing labour, (or they thin they do). There is no implication in Star Wars that droids dislike their jobs the same way humans do.
2. Star Wars should not be taken this seriously. They have droids and insane technology but failed to have self-conscious starships or even autonomous modes on them? Tanks in some Soviet war movies had more animisation or even personification than any of Star Wars spaceships. Some tanks in Soviet cinema were even considered by other characters to be persons, and 'The Lark' even kept going on his own after his crew was killed. Even Millenium Falcon never got close.
@@marcforrester7738 Originally, yes, but modern common speech it simply means 'work'.
Kinda reminds me of the Astro Boy series in the 80s.
It dealt a lot about human and robot relationships.
Astro Boy was basically a weapon but they also built a robot family for him. And he goes to school like a normal kid.
And yep, he's treated like a second class citizen.
I love your video essays
Now to topic: I believe that the death and the posthumus treatment of L3-37 is inherently misogynist, because she is framed as a female character revolving against her oppression - so she has to be killed and put back in her place as a servant.
Ever notice how everyone likes R2 who doesn't speak intelligibly, and also hates 3PO basically because he talks too much, is opinionated, AMD frequently expresses concern?