ADDITIONS/ERRATA: -Cat moments at 2:383:28 -Paizo's official Mythic Variant Rules that came out after this video allow you to (1) combine non-mythic and mythic characters in the same party by only giving the former Free Archetype (and a more generous version at that), and (2) divorce Mythic progression from levels: you gain mythic abilities by doing mythic trials. (Not official, but a group that wants to power-up mythic characters even further can also just decide to alter the progression drastically.) -8:57 I would change getting 2 PCs if you "slay" a mythic opponent, since it ices out support characters and favors high-DPR PCs. I would leave the lucky winner to GM discretion. -10:58 The Death & Dying rule should say you die when your doomed value equals the dying value you would die at. Otherwise it invalidates Diehard and similar feats. -10:58 You ALSO don't seem to get any protection from instant-kill (Death) effects! I honestly am guessing that's not intended. But if you're running RAW then death effects remain scary in the game.
i love that Paizo actually specifies the percentage of encounters they recommend for replenishing the mythic points unlike the iNdUsTrY lEaDeR, whom just tells the DM that hero points are supposedly an important optional rule, but apparently entirely the DM's responsibility to figure out the appropriate number to give
It still pushes the game towards that kind of iNdUsTrY lEaDeR guesswork in regards to encounter balance, albeit slightly. I expected more concrete calculations as to how mythic PCs and monsters compare to "baseline" PCs and monsters, in the context of the XP budget. I get it, the book is literally about adding game-breaking abilities in a game that has been historically criticized for every ability/spell being measured and restrained. Exciting stuff, but it's not what I came to (or rather, ran away to) PF2e for. I like being confident in the underlying math.
One nice thing mythic points give (and I know some friends whom would not like this aspect of it), is that it brings a lot of characters closer together in power at the higher levels. For instance, if you are a Heraclean brute with a massive Athletics bonus, you really won't need to spend a mythic point on most Athletics checks, especially at 12+. But, the tiny little wizard who's untrained in Athletics could occasionally push themselves to attain mythic proficiency in one athletics check, grappling something that'd be otherwise impossible, climbing a mountain with ease, etc. It's funny that it works this way though, because you'd figure mythic points would let you overspecialize further, when in reality it's actually far more useful as a gap closing tool. With it, anyone can use any skill and be incredibly competent at it, which is great for emergencies. If you are untrained in medicine, you can attempt to stabilize someone and spend a mythic point to have very little risk with the attempt. You could be a barbarian with a -1 intelligence and have occasional flashes of insight due to your mythic power, which is funny, and honestly more incredible than stacking even more knowledge on someone whom already seems to have it all imo.
@@Failedlegend I looked over at Series of Dice-Based Events and sadly don't see a WOTR 2e conversion in progress. Though I'm guessing they might start one up now that Mythic rules are about to come out
To me it makes sense that Mythic becomes less effective with higher Level. You are already Legendary in something. You are pretty much the best that people in that World can offer. So the Gap between Mythic and Legendary should be much more ignorable than between trained and mythic. Anyway, i was really looking forward to Mythic rules but they all feel not only underwhelming but messy too.
As someone who really likes challenging encounters, this does feel like the kind of thing I'd love. "Oh you're mythic. Time to face 30 enemies at once!"
So three issues I have with this system as presented (and which I will be adjusting at my table). - Characters don't really seem to feel "mythic" unless they spend mythic points, so many of these mythics feats have no effects unless you spend a mythic point. I'm not saying the characters should be that powerful all the time, but there really needs to be more permanent manifestations of their mythic power in their baseline abilities. - The issue you pointed out with Rewrite Fate and Mythic Feats, almost no player is going to use the Mythic feats because it's easier and more effective to just Rewrite Fate (because it's not like a player is going to decide to invest 2 Mythic Points from the start unless they really want something to work, at least unless their GM hands out Mythic points very regularly). - Regaining Mythic Points from your calling seems to be the hardest way to regain your mythic points even though I feel like it should really be the opposite, plus the way you do regain the mythic points can cause you to spend a mythic point just to immediately get it back because you're rerolling at mythic proficiency. It doesn't really feel like a very important part of your character the way it's represented at the moment. All in all these are a solid base, but I'm a little frustrated that this doesn't really feel like it works out of the box. I'm almost certainly going to completely change the way mythic points are rewarded and rework (or honestly maybe just outright remove to bring back hero points) Rewrite Fate.
I got the book early. If you kill the monster with your own ability, you get 2 points, but the rest of the party gets 1. Still definitely rewards the more damaging classes over the others, but everyone has a shot to kill it and everyone's going to get something.
@@SGFAZ I got that much. And that'd be fine if there were other ways to earn points - like healing someone (from 0?), tanking a bunch of damage, or inflicting strong debuffs. Empower all the roles
My thought there is that if you can make your calling fit the battle, you also get the 2nd point. Like guardian guarding the party, and blocked some of the mythic creature's attacks, then it counts as filling your calling, and you get another point, matching the one who got the kill.
Honestly, I kinda like that mythic proficiency is just one step above legendary. It's like you're reaching the potential you showed at the start, building your baseline up to be comparable to truly incredible levels.
I like it as a weird sort of balancing thing. At lower levels you get a larger boost to your skills and saves, and while as you level the boost to Mythic prof. becomes a less impactful bonus, you're also gaining feats that make you overpowered in other ways.
Correct me if i'm wrong. Mythic Magic (22:27) does not seem to require you to KNOW the spells to cast them. They do not need to be spells in your spell repertoire. As a Summoner, at 8th level, i do not HAVE any spells of 1st or 2nd level in my spell repertoire. Mythic Magic would let me gain up to 3 spells of 1st or 2nd level that i can cast through Mythic Magic, that would heighten just like my other signature spells. Considering i only ever know 5 spells, that's a 60% boost to my spells known. 80% at 14th level, and DOUBLE my normal spells known at 20th.
I'm not sure they get added to your summoner repertoire, and so they're not auto-heightenable. Here's a Reddit thread I found saying spells from archetypes are not subject to your special summoner ability: www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/1g2107a/unlimited_signature_spells/
Uh, so, not certain where exactly your confusion is coming from, but the feat basically gives you a unique spell repertoire that take mythic points to cast. It does give you more spells known, however they can only be cast with mythic points. As a summoner, you do have 1st or 2nd level spells in your repertoire, they just use your heightened spell slots because they are all signature spells. I think your confusion is occurring on the separation between a "repertoire" and "slots" in the language here (correct me if I'm wrong)
@@ponytail336 It's more a standpoint of "This seems too good to be true", at least coming from the standpoint of a summoner. A single feat nearly doubling my spell list and spell output (depending on available mythic points) seems too strong. Just wanted to make sure that i wasn't mis-understanding it, or if it would have some weird interaction with partial or spontaneous casters that i'm not aware of.
@@TheRulesLawyerRPG At the end of the last section of the first paragraph of Mythic Magic it says "and the spells are automatically heightened to half your level (rounded up)." While they are not *actually* one of your signature spells, they behave in exactly the same way. It does seem quite strong for Magus and Summoner to be able to suddenly massively increase their number of max level spells.
I’m very interested on how ghe community will feel after playing ariund with these rules! Genuienly the dying rules I was a big fan of even outside a mythic campaign. They are less deadly than normal but to me they feel deadly enough so death is still a treat. Can’t wait for your coverage!
I played in a PF1e homebrew campaign that went up to level 20 and mythic tier 10 that was a real blast! The GM introduced the idea and really enjoyed putting together encounters to challenge the players and it allowed us to take on wildly powerful planar and divine foes. Mythic tier 1 gives great value because it makes the characters a lot more resistant to death.
To me, the low power of the first few levels worth of Mythic Feats strongly suggests they are indeed meant to be in addition to Free Archetype, and not taking the place of Free Archetype. Them not being super strong doesn't matter so much if it's just an extra thing added to your character.
On most characters the bookkeeper's calling isn't great, but if you have things like bardic, gossip, or esoteric lore, then you could use it on any knowledge check.
Would love to see more about high tier mythic.. Specifically Destinies. Would also love to know more about what crafting options are available. As it is right now, the concept of Mythic Proficiency is at odds to me with raising your skill proficiency as when you're trained, spending a mythic point nets you a +8 bonus while at legendary proficiency you only get +2. Personally, the way I would have written it is for your "Calling" and other related proficiencies to be upgraded by one tier, up to Legendary increasing to Mythic.. With the Rewrite Fate and other Mythic Skill feats, I'd have loved to see them simply gain a bonus of +5 on top of any other bonuses you're using. So that way it scales pretty well throughout your levels. I'm really iffy with the concept of low tier mythic only providing temporary power.. Really hope that 12+ tier mythic and Destinies do a lot more of permanent bonuses to carry things.
For the free archetype feat comment (at the 14 min mark), I think what they meant was that by using the Mythic character rules, it is making a character with the Mythic 'archetype' without requiring taking a dedication. I think it would be kinda bonkers to having a column of feats for class feats, a column of archetype feats, AND a column of mythic feats. That would really make the even levels jump in power compared to the odd levels. I also think they didn't just make a "Mythic dedication" feat since the ruleset would be so overpowered every player would take it if allowed, so the campaign really does have to revolve around that power level. It goes beyond a simple campaign theming, like having a nautical campaign include free nautical archetypes.
Only benefit to the calling over rewrite fate is it let's you roll checks you might normally be unable to (like disabling a master trap while only at expert). Also it let's you go ham on a "advantage" mythic prof roll for the ones in your calling, but would require two mythic points to do.
I ran a 1st edition Mythic game in which one of the characters did over 10,000 damage with a coup de grace. It was not unusual for them to do hundreds of damage with normal attacks. Part of that was my fault in giving them a custom item that let them stack an additional effective weapon size category, but most of it was a combination of basic and mythic abilities.
I played an archmage in PF1 and decided to specialize in magic missile. It took all of my mythic points, but I one shot a dragon boss at level 12 with 230 magic missiles on a single turn. As cool as that was, I’m glad Mythic isn’t anywhere close to the same level of crazy.
It never ceases to amuse me that, despite being generally more visually bombastic in nature, the Owlcat versions of the PF1 mythic paths are considerably more tame in their results.
Looking forward to this as my players love going to level 20 and beyond. Been doing it since the 80s (where we had level 34 characters in BECMI). Preordered.
*Paizo:* "We're adding a beyond Level 20 system!" *Me:* "Neat. Hey, when's that book of general NPCs coming out you mentioned a while back?" *Paizo:* "..." *Me:* "..." *Paizo:* "We're doing a major lore event with multiple book entries!"
Just started my first ever pf2e campaign last tuesday. Didnt know anything about this. Gosh darnit these rules sound really fun to implement at high level play though. Maybe ill plan for the players to become mythic at level 10 or 12 without telling them muhahaha. Of course, this all depends on if it would add to the story or not
This could be great for a Arthur and the Round Table, or the Argonauts. I think you could have Mythic Demi-gods, and Heroes in the same group. Though it could take a lot of extra effort.
Rewrite Fate is fine - it has the Fortune tag, but the Mythic Proficiencies (at least the one you showcased) does not. Thus, you could use your Mythic Proficiency first, and then reroll that using Rewrite Fate. If you used Rewrite Fate first, you could not reroll it, but it can be used for just about anything. I see both having their place.
I feel like "Call from Death's Door" should not be limited to allies. A Caretaker should be able to do that for anyone. Niche usage, perhaps, but still it fits them better.
Bookkeeper's calling would work with bard and thaumaturge's universal lores though, which is not ideal, but is something. It also makes picking up Additional Lore (The Campaign Theme) much more enticing than it already was. Overall I'll need to see the rest of this calling's abilities, but I don't think it's entirely useless.
Archetype spellcasting would be interesting with Mythic Magic feat. You can ignore the poor scaling of your archetype because you can use those spells only for mythic objectives.
The old mythic paths were conceptually boring. I had no real interest in any of them. The new Mythic Destinies are awesome, and I eagerly wait to learn more about them!
Hey ronald, question cus you know the system better than I. If a mythic character gets hit with a death effect do they still die? Or are they on the ground and just doomed 1?
I wonder if mythic rolls would be better balanced at all levels by just treating your proficiency as one tier higher - up to mythic if you would be legendary.
I like the concept that you are mythic from the start, and just grow into your true potential as you level. When you eventually become legendary you are permanently nearly as strong as your true potential. That said i have no clue how this would feel during a real game. Perhaps the smaller increase would feel bad, but it could also be compensated for with crazy powerful high level mythic feats.
@@felixcohen1247 Some of those high levels feats will also get 'worse' in regards to the bonus they give you compared to your normal. His point about mythic spell is a very good one.
@@eamk887 That's not my issue, the issue I have is that you get less comparatively strong as you get stronger. The bonus goes from a +40% increase in success to +10%.
Some thoughts from me: 12:57 Someone once called Archetypes with a level Requirement >2 "Prestige Archetypes". As they are similar to old Prestige classes, which needed level 5+. This tells them from the more common Level 2 Archetypes, which you can easily take with Free Archetype. Mythic Destinies would be comparable to "Prestige Archetypes". 13:30 While you can, I am not sure you _should_ add Mythic Rules to FA games. Or at least not higher level ones. Higher Level FA games already can cause very complicated Characters. Honestly, I as a player feel stressed to my limit just managing a FA Gunslinger with 2 Archetypes. Mythic on top would definitely tip me over the edge.
Mythic proficiency really feels like it should be +8 and just stack with your regular proficiency so you improve as ypu level rather then the effect tapering off.
I'm curious, knowing the discourse from digital games. Are these rules only watched by the community as epic rules to have fun with? Or are there som vocal groups that sees this as an easy mode of the game?
RE: mythic spellcasting DC, do mythic monsters get bonuses to their saves? Also, go take a look at Exalted 2 perfect defenses if you want to see what overpowered looks like.
I basically never use trivial threat anyway. It's just too easy to be fun. I sometimes use slightly easier encounters to let my players feel awesome, but... that's about it
I personally sort of like the idea of not rerolling an attack as it is inherently making players have to adapt and is the only give to this entire thing and subverts an expectation of standard (Which promotes active learning) They're giving you mythic points to break the game, theyre giving you FEATS to spend them and if a player can't think of anything but a attack reroll or has a problem with that I think that's sorta lame. Its lame to take it away but its maybe even more lame to not see the bigger picture. I think with free archetype we blow up every traditional advice to balance that. But we would need to probably see this system over a decent amount of time before being able to really say that. Personally this isn''t why I moved to pf2e and honestly the idea of having to give the party lower threat mythic fights to regain points is a little odd and makes me question it. I see a lot of fun stuff here and it's a unique implementation but I can almost FEEL the lack of Seifter here at various points. I like the idea that you can use these points however to truly do something mythic like the wizard doing a crazy athletic moment. Now that's being actually 'different' than others and this system in the hands of the moderate probably brings most of the classes up quite a bit. The individual killing a mythic creature getting 2 points while everybody else gets 1 tho is absolutely ridiculous. It might be one of the first times anybody has ever tried to put anything like that in the system and I feel like this was avoided for years for very good reason.
I think our table will probably rework a few of these Mythic rules before we try them out. Here are the 4 main house-rules we are considering: 1) Completely remove the "Rewrite Fate" mythic feature. It's too much like Fate Points and makes the other uses of Mythic Points feel less rewarding. 2) Change Mythic Proficiency to just mean, "You Roll with Advantage / Enemy rolls with Disadvantage". That pulls that average "Mythic" bonus down to a +3 or +4 which still feels good but doesn't break the game. 3) Remove the "Correct the Story" mythic feat and just make it a default feature of Fate Points (we already use more flexible fate points at our table, so it's not really a change for us) 4) By default all players will start out on the "Fate Point Path". They can can switch to the "Mystic Point Path" later on if the circumstances call for it. This will typically be a one-way street and switching back to the Fate Point Path would carry dire consequences (Think Champion violating their edicts/anathemas). So think carefully before you make that greedy grab for power because you're also signing up to be fate's plaything. ... and of course, we'll treat all Mystic Feats as archetype feats. No double-dipping with free archetype. I think all these changes will keep the game balanced while still giving players that mythic flavor. It also makes the choice a little more balanced: -- The Fate Point Path feels like you're getting 1 ANYTHING point per session -- The Mythic Point Path feels like you're getting 3 SOME STUFF points per session So do you want one universal reroll or 3 limited rerolls? We'll see how it goes!
@@duncbot9000 I feel like "Ow stop" was the one. Easy to understand, and well, the name of the person is not a great safeword, and "bare thigh" seemed to be the thing he was talking about, not a safeword.
I believe the reference to Free Archetype is due to the similarity of "Bonus Feat every even level". Might also just be trying to cover too many bases with not enough word count. Here is how I am interpreting these rules in practice: 1) Standard game without Mythic - Mythic Destinies become 12th level "archetype dedications" and Mythic Feats essentially become "Mythic Archetype Feats". These then follow standard archetype rules. 2) Free Archetype game without Mythic - As scenario 1 but you may also select Mythic Destinies/Mythic Feats with the bonus archetype feats granted by the Free Archetype rule once you hit 12th level. (My gut says GM's in this scenario should restrict player's to a single Mythic Feat at level up) 3) Standard Mythic game - You gain an additional Mythic Feat at every even level (essentially Free Archetype but limited to Mythic). You CANNOT substitute your normal class feats for Mythic Feats or Mythic Destinies, that is explicitly only an option for NON-Mythic game. 4) Free Archetype Mythic game - As scenario 3 but you would also benefit from Free Archetype rules as normal.
It should be noted that when talking about mixing mythic and non-mythic they tell you to give non-mythic free archetype, because that way they at least get the double even level feat progression. Mythic is very clearly designed to "slot in" to free archetype, the way it "slots in" to hero points.
@@woomod2445 Ah yes, I hadn't considered unbalanced parties with only some members being mythic. That method would certainly create more parity between the two types of party members.
Honestly, Mythic Proficiency probably should have gone the route of increasing your current proficiency to the next one, just to allow for static increases. As an example, a Mythic Point could increase a trained skill into an expert skill. Of course, actual Mythic proficiency would still exist, but it's only restricted to anything at Legendary already. It would allow for the power increase to remain consistent with these rules and follow through more with the idea of "breaking the limits" of certain things more. Probably would've been simpler.
Thanks for the review. The mythic rules don't seem very mythical. Having a couple of points to get remarkable results a few times a day is not really scratching my mythic itch.The balance of the whole system seems OK, but the balance of various options seems wildy mismatched. Lots of overlap in abilities too. I'm not inspired to get this expansion at all.
The last thing I wanted as a GM is a higher power curve for players, so I’m inclined to be very distrustful of this book. Still, gating it to specific campaigns seems a good first step.
HM i am a solo player and that warps my judgement, but i don't think Unbreaking Castle seems too great? like, that is a lot of AC to be spreading around, but by the time you're getting L10 Feats, imho, AC becomes pretty meaningless and easy to circumvent (especially for non-player combatants) by the time i'm looking at L10 feats, combat checks tend to be a matter of, 'did i roll under 3?' or 'did i roll over 17?', at least in the scenarios i've been playing, with extremely limited care for AC values or other hit modifiers
I am very disappointed by the mythic rules. They tried to balance the rules but should have just made the rules fun for the community. We want more power! The ability to challenge the gods or demon lords! Unfortunately, what we seemingly** got was a watered-down power fantasy. I still like most things about the book, but unlike what i played in Wrath of the Righteous, i don't feel powerful or like a mythic hero. When i start using the rules and playing them in the game, maybe my view will change this is just speculation for my own feeling as of hearing about the rules.
Funny you should say this, as I think there is another camp that is worried about power creep and that there will be another opinion that there isn't enough quality control and concern for balance here. Might I ask, what would be examples of what you'd want as new abilities in the PF2 context? Because your reference, WOTR, was a PF1 game.
@TheRulesLawyerRPG I think having returning power from the game WOTR are good options. Many abilities of WOTR are passives like "destructive shockwave" tldr: deal your strength modifier in damage on a target on melee attack that is a miss. or "Flawless attack" - suffer -4 on iterative attacks instead of -5. They are a few examples, and as a GM, i understand that not all WOTR can be easily converted, but the abilities provide a sense of strength in your mythic abilities. The two biggest let downs with mythic rules for me are. "Mythic Points" Mythic abilities being a resource seems like the mythic in your character is only temporary and not really your power. The second is that mythic creatures, including characters and monsters, don't scale above 25, and as of right now, it seems that mythic creatures are nothing more than creatures with extra abilities. I hope I'm wrong when more things come out. I heard about mythic resistance but don't know much about it, and it sounds promising. I think balanced for mythic rules should have been a separate scale. Allowing for supreme high-level games and world ending bosses. I do have a favoritism for high-level fights and recognize my bias. I learned that from maybe WOTR. I'm glad that Pathfinder Infinite already has good mythic rules that i might use on top of these rules released. I would like to talk more about my likes and dislikes, but i wanted to wait for more info before i come to my final conclusions.
ugh... as far as 'you now need to be more careful about encounter design and not use the encounter system...' that is almost a dealbreaker to me. not quite, but close i'm tired of the designers of these systems deciding that this component is just optional. it's not i want encounter builds that work. or, if it really is too much to ask for an al la carte point system to build encounters with (god knows why, all of the miniature wargames i solo play have zero problem with doing this), fine - give me a supplement book with bespoke encounters that have been playtested to be fun and challenging maybe half of my sessions feel too anticlimactic because the encounters i build in accordance with Paizo's own encounter building rules are too easy, and maybe 5%~ of the time an encounter i build with that system is a TPK despite very average die rolls on both sides. so i find i am increasingly seeking out third party options and scrolling through what are basically banned/restricted lists for monsters this is stupid, imho. the game literally doesn't function without encounters, and so it isn't unreasonable to expect to get an encounter building system that just outright works out of the box and/or a robust selection of bespoke encounters you can use. i see no good reason we keep getting 'monster manuals' and other bestiary books when instead it would be much more useful to get books full of level appropriate encounters
ADDITIONS/ERRATA:
-Cat moments at 2:38 3:28
-Paizo's official Mythic Variant Rules that came out after this video allow you to (1) combine non-mythic and mythic characters in the same party by only giving the former Free Archetype (and a more generous version at that), and (2) divorce Mythic progression from levels: you gain mythic abilities by doing mythic trials. (Not official, but a group that wants to power-up mythic characters even further can also just decide to alter the progression drastically.)
-8:57 I would change getting 2 PCs if you "slay" a mythic opponent, since it ices out support characters and favors high-DPR PCs. I would leave the lucky winner to GM discretion.
-10:58 The Death & Dying rule should say you die when your doomed value equals the dying value you would die at. Otherwise it invalidates Diehard and similar feats.
-10:58 You ALSO don't seem to get any protection from instant-kill (Death) effects! I honestly am guessing that's not intended. But if you're running RAW then death effects remain scary in the game.
i love that Paizo actually specifies the percentage of encounters they recommend for replenishing the mythic points
unlike the iNdUsTrY lEaDeR, whom just tells the DM that hero points are supposedly an important optional rule, but apparently entirely the DM's responsibility to figure out the appropriate number to give
It still pushes the game towards that kind of iNdUsTrY lEaDeR guesswork in regards to encounter balance, albeit slightly. I expected more concrete calculations as to how mythic PCs and monsters compare to "baseline" PCs and monsters, in the context of the XP budget.
I get it, the book is literally about adding game-breaking abilities in a game that has been historically criticized for every ability/spell being measured and restrained. Exciting stuff, but it's not what I came to (or rather, ran away to) PF2e for. I like being confident in the underlying math.
One nice thing mythic points give (and I know some friends whom would not like this aspect of it), is that it brings a lot of characters closer together in power at the higher levels.
For instance, if you are a Heraclean brute with a massive Athletics bonus, you really won't need to spend a mythic point on most Athletics checks, especially at 12+. But, the tiny little wizard who's untrained in Athletics could occasionally push themselves to attain mythic proficiency in one athletics check, grappling something that'd be otherwise impossible, climbing a mountain with ease, etc. It's funny that it works this way though, because you'd figure mythic points would let you overspecialize further, when in reality it's actually far more useful as a gap closing tool. With it, anyone can use any skill and be incredibly competent at it, which is great for emergencies. If you are untrained in medicine, you can attempt to stabilize someone and spend a mythic point to have very little risk with the attempt.
You could be a barbarian with a -1 intelligence and have occasional flashes of insight due to your mythic power, which is funny, and honestly more incredible than stacking even more knowledge on someone whom already seems to have it all imo.
I would love a re-worked Wrath of the Righteous with these rules integrated.
Me too, mate. I can't even imagine how awesome that would be. Or even a new Pathfinder CRPG, lvl 1 to 20, with mythic powers using these new rules.
my group is already planning to do WotR whther Paizo does so or not but obviously we'd prefer an official conversion
@@Failedlegend I looked over at Series of Dice-Based Events and sadly don't see a WOTR 2e conversion in progress. Though I'm guessing they might start one up now that Mythic rules are about to come out
@@TheRulesLawyerRPG there is iirc conversion for the first book if u ask for it, tho i suppose with the new mythic rules things might change a lot!
2e and the new mythic rules thrown in with Owlcat's more consistent story could end up being the best adventure path ever.
Seven word comment.
TH-cam algorithm rules.
Visibility.
He said fuck!
He does say it. Rarely but he does.
+2
@@mr.cauliflower3536 I prefer piercing over bludgeoning damage
@@TheRulesLawyerRPG Good thing I have composite armor group specialization IRL to get resistance to your piercing language!
To me it makes sense that Mythic becomes less effective with higher Level. You are already Legendary in something. You are pretty much the best that people in that World can offer. So the Gap between Mythic and Legendary should be much more ignorable than between trained and mythic.
Anyway, i was really looking forward to Mythic rules but they all feel not only underwhelming but messy too.
Every +1 matters... and a _+10_ matters a whole hell of a lot.
Well played lol we need a mythic update on ronald’s mod
As someone who really likes challenging encounters, this does feel like the kind of thing I'd love.
"Oh you're mythic. Time to face 30 enemies at once!"
Not even 15 seconds in, and already brutal honesty. Gonna be a good one.
So three issues I have with this system as presented (and which I will be adjusting at my table).
- Characters don't really seem to feel "mythic" unless they spend mythic points, so many of these mythics feats have no effects unless you spend a mythic point. I'm not saying the characters should be that powerful all the time, but there really needs to be more permanent manifestations of their mythic power in their baseline abilities.
- The issue you pointed out with Rewrite Fate and Mythic Feats, almost no player is going to use the Mythic feats because it's easier and more effective to just Rewrite Fate (because it's not like a player is going to decide to invest 2 Mythic Points from the start unless they really want something to work, at least unless their GM hands out Mythic points very regularly).
- Regaining Mythic Points from your calling seems to be the hardest way to regain your mythic points even though I feel like it should really be the opposite, plus the way you do regain the mythic points can cause you to spend a mythic point just to immediately get it back because you're rerolling at mythic proficiency. It doesn't really feel like a very important part of your character the way it's represented at the moment.
All in all these are a solid base, but I'm a little frustrated that this doesn't really feel like it works out of the box. I'm almost certainly going to completely change the way mythic points are rewarded and rework (or honestly maybe just outright remove to bring back hero points) Rewrite Fate.
Love the fact you're returning to 2022 type content. Keep it up
The killer of the mythic enemy gets the points? I.. don't like that.
Rewards damage focused characters way more than tanks, supports or healers.
The rest of the party still gets mythic points
I got the book early. If you kill the monster with your own ability, you get 2 points, but the rest of the party gets 1. Still definitely rewards the more damaging classes over the others, but everyone has a shot to kill it and everyone's going to get something.
@@SGFAZ I got that much. And that'd be fine if there were other ways to earn points - like healing someone (from 0?), tanking a bunch of damage, or inflicting strong debuffs. Empower all the roles
Yeah, I'd houserule to that "who was most responsible for this victory?" Or just vibes and who was the coolest lol
My thought there is that if you can make your calling fit the battle, you also get the 2nd point. Like guardian guarding the party, and blocked some of the mythic creature's attacks, then it counts as filling your calling, and you get another point, matching the one who got the kill.
Binds That Tie is just going to lead to more Tag Team wrestling parties (because everyone should have Athletics proficiency)
Honestly, I kinda like that mythic proficiency is just one step above legendary. It's like you're reaching the potential you showed at the start, building your baseline up to be comparable to truly incredible levels.
I like it as a weird sort of balancing thing. At lower levels you get a larger boost to your skills and saves, and while as you level the boost to Mythic prof. becomes a less impactful bonus, you're also gaining feats that make you overpowered in other ways.
@@ShaleLee I think it plays to the anime hero who is at first weak with great bursts of chosen one. But end up super strong with lesser mega jumps
Correct me if i'm wrong.
Mythic Magic (22:27) does not seem to require you to KNOW the spells to cast them. They do not need to be spells in your spell repertoire.
As a Summoner, at 8th level, i do not HAVE any spells of 1st or 2nd level in my spell repertoire. Mythic Magic would let me gain up to 3 spells of 1st or 2nd level that i can cast through Mythic Magic, that would heighten just like my other signature spells.
Considering i only ever know 5 spells, that's a 60% boost to my spells known. 80% at 14th level, and DOUBLE my normal spells known at 20th.
I'm not sure they get added to your summoner repertoire, and so they're not auto-heightenable. Here's a Reddit thread I found saying spells from archetypes are not subject to your special summoner ability: www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/1g2107a/unlimited_signature_spells/
Uh, so, not certain where exactly your confusion is coming from, but the feat basically gives you a unique spell repertoire that take mythic points to cast. It does give you more spells known, however they can only be cast with mythic points.
As a summoner, you do have 1st or 2nd level spells in your repertoire, they just use your heightened spell slots because they are all signature spells. I think your confusion is occurring on the separation between a "repertoire" and "slots" in the language here (correct me if I'm wrong)
@@ponytail336 It's more a standpoint of "This seems too good to be true", at least coming from the standpoint of a summoner. A single feat nearly doubling my spell list and spell output (depending on available mythic points) seems too strong. Just wanted to make sure that i wasn't mis-understanding it, or if it would have some weird interaction with partial or spontaneous casters that i'm not aware of.
@@TheRulesLawyerRPG At the end of the last section of the first paragraph of Mythic Magic it says "and the spells are automatically heightened to half your level (rounded up)." While they are not *actually* one of your signature spells, they behave in exactly the same way. It does seem quite strong for Magus and Summoner to be able to suddenly massively increase their number of max level spells.
@@akkristor I mean, it also doesn't require the ability to cast spells. Fighters can get this too.
Today we learned that the ruleslawyers safeword is muffins
I’m very interested on how ghe community will feel after playing ariund with these rules! Genuienly the dying rules I was a big fan of even outside a mythic campaign. They are less deadly than normal but to me they feel deadly enough so death is still a treat. Can’t wait for your coverage!
I played in a PF1e homebrew campaign that went up to level 20 and mythic tier 10 that was a real blast! The GM introduced the idea and really enjoyed putting together encounters to challenge the players and it allowed us to take on wildly powerful planar and divine foes. Mythic tier 1 gives great value because it makes the characters a lot more resistant to death.
17:30 The phrasing on Correct the Story is hilarious. Made me chuckle.
To me, the low power of the first few levels worth of Mythic Feats strongly suggests they are indeed meant to be in addition to Free Archetype, and not taking the place of Free Archetype. Them not being super strong doesn't matter so much if it's just an extra thing added to your character.
On most characters the bookkeeper's calling isn't great, but if you have things like bardic, gossip, or esoteric lore, then you could use it on any knowledge check.
Would love to see more about high tier mythic.. Specifically Destinies. Would also love to know more about what crafting options are available. As it is right now, the concept of Mythic Proficiency is at odds to me with raising your skill proficiency as when you're trained, spending a mythic point nets you a +8 bonus while at legendary proficiency you only get +2. Personally, the way I would have written it is for your "Calling" and other related proficiencies to be upgraded by one tier, up to Legendary increasing to Mythic.. With the Rewrite Fate and other Mythic Skill feats, I'd have loved to see them simply gain a bonus of +5 on top of any other bonuses you're using. So that way it scales pretty well throughout your levels.
I'm really iffy with the concept of low tier mythic only providing temporary power.. Really hope that 12+ tier mythic and Destinies do a lot more of permanent bonuses to carry things.
For the free archetype feat comment (at the 14 min mark), I think what they meant was that by using the Mythic character rules, it is making a character with the Mythic 'archetype' without requiring taking a dedication. I think it would be kinda bonkers to having a column of feats for class feats, a column of archetype feats, AND a column of mythic feats. That would really make the even levels jump in power compared to the odd levels. I also think they didn't just make a "Mythic dedication" feat since the ruleset would be so overpowered every player would take it if allowed, so the campaign really does have to revolve around that power level. It goes beyond a simple campaign theming, like having a nautical campaign include free nautical archetypes.
Only benefit to the calling over rewrite fate is it let's you roll checks you might normally be unable to (like disabling a master trap while only at expert).
Also it let's you go ham on a "advantage" mythic prof roll for the ones in your calling, but would require two mythic points to do.
I ran a 1st edition Mythic game in which one of the characters did over 10,000 damage with a coup de grace. It was not unusual for them to do hundreds of damage with normal attacks. Part of that was my fault in giving them a custom item that let them stack an additional effective weapon size category, but most of it was a combination of basic and mythic abilities.
2:39 Best Moment!
I played an archmage in PF1 and decided to specialize in magic missile. It took all of my mythic points, but I one shot a dragon boss at level 12 with 230 magic missiles on a single turn. As cool as that was, I’m glad Mythic isn’t anywhere close to the same level of crazy.
It never ceases to amuse me that, despite being generally more visually bombastic in nature, the Owlcat versions of the PF1 mythic paths are considerably more tame in their results.
Looking forward to this as my players love going to level 20 and beyond. Been doing it since the 80s (where we had level 34 characters in BECMI).
Preordered.
*Paizo:* "We're adding a beyond Level 20 system!"
*Me:* "Neat. Hey, when's that book of general NPCs coming out you mentioned a while back?"
*Paizo:* "..."
*Me:* "..."
*Paizo:* "We're doing a major lore event with multiple book entries!"
Got on pre-order and about to complete my collection.
Just started my first ever pf2e campaign last tuesday. Didnt know anything about this. Gosh darnit these rules sound really fun to implement at high level play though. Maybe ill plan for the players to become mythic at level 10 or 12 without telling them muhahaha. Of course, this all depends on if it would add to the story or not
This could be great for a Arthur and the Round Table, or the Argonauts. I think you could have Mythic Demi-gods, and Heroes in the same group. Though it could take a lot of extra effort.
Mythic: Finally you can play something on the level of characters from stories you read.
Correct the Story lol. Glad to see you back Silvery Barbs. ☺
Rewrite Fate is fine - it has the Fortune tag, but the Mythic Proficiencies (at least the one you showcased) does not. Thus, you could use your Mythic Proficiency first, and then reroll that using Rewrite Fate. If you used Rewrite Fate first, you could not reroll it, but it can be used for just about anything. I see both having their place.
I feel like "Call from Death's Door" should not be limited to allies. A Caretaker should be able to do that for anyone. Niche usage, perhaps, but still it fits them better.
Bookkeeper's calling would work with bard and thaumaturge's universal lores though, which is not ideal, but is something. It also makes picking up Additional Lore (The Campaign Theme) much more enticing than it already was. Overall I'll need to see the rest of this calling's abilities, but I don't think it's entirely useless.
Archetype spellcasting would be interesting with Mythic Magic feat. You can ignore the poor scaling of your archetype because you can use those spells only for mythic objectives.
The old mythic paths were conceptually boring. I had no real interest in any of them. The new Mythic Destinies are awesome, and I eagerly wait to learn more about them!
Hey ronald, question cus you know the system better than I. If a mythic character gets hit with a death effect do they still die? Or are they on the ground and just doomed 1?
I wonder if mythic rolls would be better balanced at all levels by just treating your proficiency as one tier higher - up to mythic if you would be legendary.
I definitely don't like the feeling if getting weaker bonuses as i or my players level it's definitely not feels good for a long term campaign
I like the concept that you are mythic from the start, and just grow into your true potential as you level. When you eventually become legendary you are permanently nearly as strong as your true potential. That said i have no clue how this would feel during a real game. Perhaps the smaller increase would feel bad, but it could also be compensated for with crazy powerful high level mythic feats.
I mean, these rules are meant to be overpowered, if you feel they are too overpowered, you can just change the rules for your table.
@@felixcohen1247 Some of those high levels feats will also get 'worse' in regards to the bonus they give you compared to your normal. His point about mythic spell is a very good one.
@@eamk887 That's not my issue, the issue I have is that you get less comparatively strong as you get stronger. The bonus goes from a +40% increase in success to +10%.
Some thoughts from me:
12:57 Someone once called Archetypes with a level Requirement >2 "Prestige Archetypes". As they are similar to old Prestige classes, which needed level 5+.
This tells them from the more common Level 2 Archetypes, which you can easily take with Free Archetype.
Mythic Destinies would be comparable to "Prestige Archetypes".
13:30 While you can, I am not sure you _should_ add Mythic Rules to FA games. Or at least not higher level ones.
Higher Level FA games already can cause very complicated Characters. Honestly, I as a player feel stressed to my limit just managing a FA Gunslinger with 2 Archetypes.
Mythic on top would definitely tip me over the edge.
Mythic proficiency really feels like it should be +8 and just stack with your regular proficiency so you improve as ypu level rather then the effect tapering off.
I'm curious, knowing the discourse from digital games. Are these rules only watched by the community as epic rules to have fun with? Or are there som vocal groups that sees this as an easy mode of the game?
The bookkeeper calling would work well for a thamaturge.
RE: mythic spellcasting DC, do mythic monsters get bonuses to their saves? Also, go take a look at Exalted 2 perfect defenses if you want to see what overpowered looks like.
Diehard should make doomed 4 survivable.
Good point! The rule shouldn't be explicit about Doomed 4 then.
I basically never use trivial threat anyway. It's just too easy to be fun.
I sometimes use slightly easier encounters to let my players feel awesome, but... that's about it
I personally sort of like the idea of not rerolling an attack as it is inherently making players have to adapt and is the only give to this entire thing and subverts an expectation of standard (Which promotes active learning) They're giving you mythic points to break the game, theyre giving you FEATS to spend them and if a player can't think of anything but a attack reroll or has a problem with that I think that's sorta lame. Its lame to take it away but its maybe even more lame to not see the bigger picture.
I think with free archetype we blow up every traditional advice to balance that. But we would need to probably see this system over a decent amount of time before being able to really say that. Personally this isn''t why I moved to pf2e and honestly the idea of having to give the party lower threat mythic fights to regain points is a little odd and makes me question it. I see a lot of fun stuff here and it's a unique implementation but I can almost FEEL the lack of Seifter here at various points.
I like the idea that you can use these points however to truly do something mythic like the wizard doing a crazy athletic moment. Now that's being actually 'different' than others and this system in the hands of the moderate probably brings most of the classes up quite a bit. The individual killing a mythic creature getting 2 points while everybody else gets 1 tho is absolutely ridiculous. It might be one of the first times anybody has ever tried to put anything like that in the system and I feel like this was avoided for years for very good reason.
I shall take a shot every time i hear the word mythic in this video
Ei, qual a ferramenta você usa para focar no texto?
What is the mouse tool that you are use to focus on the text?
In Windows I double-tap the left Control key
@@TheRulesLawyerRPG Thx.
Calling makes sense if you want to supercharge your proficiency to mythic.
Nice!
Balance has been the Achilles heel for PF2e
Mythic Counterspell is a level 6 feat which requires Quick Recognition a level 7 feat? There seems to have been some kind of mistake
I think our table will probably rework a few of these Mythic rules before we try them out.
Here are the 4 main house-rules we are considering:
1) Completely remove the "Rewrite Fate" mythic feature. It's too much like Fate Points and makes the other uses of Mythic Points feel less rewarding.
2) Change Mythic Proficiency to just mean, "You Roll with Advantage / Enemy rolls with Disadvantage". That pulls that average "Mythic" bonus down to a +3 or +4 which still feels good but doesn't break the game.
3) Remove the "Correct the Story" mythic feat and just make it a default feature of Fate Points (we already use more flexible fate points at our table, so it's not really a change for us)
4) By default all players will start out on the "Fate Point Path". They can can switch to the "Mystic Point Path" later on if the circumstances call for it. This will typically be a one-way street and switching back to the Fate Point Path would carry dire consequences (Think Champion violating their edicts/anathemas). So think carefully before you make that greedy grab for power because you're also signing up to be fate's plaything.
... and of course, we'll treat all Mystic Feats as archetype feats. No double-dipping with free archetype. I think all these changes will keep the game balanced while still giving players that mythic flavor. It also makes the choice a little more balanced:
-- The Fate Point Path feels like you're getting 1 ANYTHING point per session
-- The Mythic Point Path feels like you're getting 3 SOME STUFF points per session
So do you want one universal reroll or 3 limited rerolls?
We'll see how it goes!
I love Meagan
You need a fleece blanket to put between your cat and bare skin. That's my advice.
You should at the very least have a long talk with megan. It's not cool to continue after someone says the safe word.
Now, was his safe word "Ow stop", "muffins" or "bare thigh"... Do we want to take some bets?
@@duncbot9000 I feel like "Ow stop" was the one. Easy to understand, and well, the name of the person is not a great safeword, and "bare thigh" seemed to be the thing he was talking about, not a safeword.
I will run my table as i want
WotR 2e is coming!
I believe the reference to Free Archetype is due to the similarity of "Bonus Feat every even level". Might also just be trying to cover too many bases with not enough word count. Here is how I am interpreting these rules in practice:
1) Standard game without Mythic - Mythic Destinies become 12th level "archetype dedications" and Mythic Feats essentially become "Mythic Archetype Feats". These then follow standard archetype rules.
2) Free Archetype game without Mythic - As scenario 1 but you may also select Mythic Destinies/Mythic Feats with the bonus archetype feats granted by the Free Archetype rule once you hit 12th level. (My gut says GM's in this scenario should restrict player's to a single Mythic Feat at level up)
3) Standard Mythic game - You gain an additional Mythic Feat at every even level (essentially Free Archetype but limited to Mythic). You CANNOT substitute your normal class feats for Mythic Feats or Mythic Destinies, that is explicitly only an option for NON-Mythic game.
4) Free Archetype Mythic game - As scenario 3 but you would also benefit from Free Archetype rules as normal.
It should be noted that when talking about mixing mythic and non-mythic they tell you to give non-mythic free archetype, because that way they at least get the double even level feat progression.
Mythic is very clearly designed to "slot in" to free archetype, the way it "slots in" to hero points.
@@woomod2445 Ah yes, I hadn't considered unbalanced parties with only some members being mythic. That method would certainly create more parity between the two types of party members.
I wonder if this is specifically to help attract more dnd players?
Happy to be here
Holy moly
Honestly, Mythic Proficiency probably should have gone the route of increasing your current proficiency to the next one, just to allow for static increases. As an example, a Mythic Point could increase a trained skill into an expert skill. Of course, actual Mythic proficiency would still exist, but it's only restricted to anything at Legendary already. It would allow for the power increase to remain consistent with these rules and follow through more with the idea of "breaking the limits" of certain things more. Probably would've been simpler.
Thanks for the review. The mythic rules don't seem very mythical. Having a couple of points to get remarkable results a few times a day is not really scratching my mythic itch.The balance of the whole system seems OK, but the balance of various options seems wildy mismatched. Lots of overlap in abilities too. I'm not inspired to get this expansion at all.
I would love it if it were busted.
It's kinda meant to be busted
Seems broken?
The last thing I wanted as a GM is a higher power curve for players, so I’m inclined to be very distrustful of this book. Still, gating it to specific campaigns seems a good first step.
Empowered Maximised Mythic Augmented Fireball nope not broken at all.
HM
i am a solo player and that warps my judgement, but i don't think Unbreaking Castle seems too great? like, that is a lot of AC to be spreading around, but by the time you're getting L10 Feats, imho, AC becomes pretty meaningless and easy to circumvent (especially for non-player combatants)
by the time i'm looking at L10 feats, combat checks tend to be a matter of, 'did i roll under 3?' or 'did i roll over 17?', at least in the scenarios i've been playing, with extremely limited care for AC values or other hit modifiers
I had basically Mythic under a different name, and balancing was very difficult. like a woman backing up into a fan, disaster. 🤷
1
not impressed so far. the base system is so well designed and though out and these rules are surprisingly haphazard and redundant
It makes no sense not to also use Hero Points... Why lose an ability when you become Mythic? Pretty sure I'd still use Hero Points along with Mythic.
Not sure how I feel about this. Seems completely unnecessary.
I am very disappointed by the mythic rules. They tried to balance the rules but should have just made the rules fun for the community. We want more power! The ability to challenge the gods or demon lords! Unfortunately, what we seemingly** got was a watered-down power fantasy. I still like most things about the book, but unlike what i played in Wrath of the Righteous, i don't feel powerful or like a mythic hero. When i start using the rules and playing them in the game, maybe my view will change this is just speculation for my own feeling as of hearing about the rules.
Funny you should say this, as I think there is another camp that is worried about power creep and that there will be another opinion that there isn't enough quality control and concern for balance here.
Might I ask, what would be examples of what you'd want as new abilities in the PF2 context? Because your reference, WOTR, was a PF1 game.
@TheRulesLawyerRPG I think having returning power from the game WOTR are good options. Many abilities of WOTR are passives like "destructive shockwave" tldr: deal your strength modifier in damage on a target on melee attack that is a miss. or "Flawless attack" - suffer -4 on iterative attacks instead of -5. They are a few examples, and as a GM, i understand that not all WOTR can be easily converted, but the abilities provide a sense of strength in your mythic abilities. The two biggest let downs with mythic rules for me are. "Mythic Points" Mythic abilities being a resource seems like the mythic in your character is only temporary and not really your power. The second is that mythic creatures, including characters and monsters, don't scale above 25, and as of right now, it seems that mythic creatures are nothing more than creatures with extra abilities. I hope I'm wrong when more things come out. I heard about mythic resistance but don't know much about it, and it sounds promising. I think balanced for mythic rules should have been a separate scale. Allowing for supreme high-level games and world ending bosses. I do have a favoritism for high-level fights and recognize my bias. I learned that from maybe WOTR. I'm glad that Pathfinder Infinite already has good mythic rules that i might use on top of these rules released. I would like to talk more about my likes and dislikes, but i wanted to wait for more info before i come to my final conclusions.
Not everyone wants more power
Wotr sucked
I do not like that ruleset. It's just "big numbers go burrrrr..." and: no you don't die.
If you don't like them, don't use them. They're just side rules you can use if you want to.
@@eamk887 totally agree, I don't hate on anyone who likes them, I just think it doesn't mix well with non mythic characters
ugh... as far as 'you now need to be more careful about encounter design and not use the encounter system...'
that is almost a dealbreaker to me. not quite, but close
i'm tired of the designers of these systems deciding that this component is just optional. it's not
i want encounter builds that work. or, if it really is too much to ask for an al la carte point system to build encounters with (god knows why, all of the miniature wargames i solo play have zero problem with doing this), fine - give me a supplement book with bespoke encounters that have been playtested to be fun and challenging
maybe half of my sessions feel too anticlimactic because the encounters i build in accordance with Paizo's own encounter building rules are too easy, and maybe 5%~ of the time an encounter i build with that system is a TPK despite very average die rolls on both sides. so i find i am increasingly seeking out third party options and scrolling through what are basically banned/restricted lists for monsters
this is stupid, imho. the game literally doesn't function without encounters, and so it isn't unreasonable to expect to get an encounter building system that just outright works out of the box and/or a robust selection of bespoke encounters you can use. i see no good reason we keep getting 'monster manuals' and other bestiary books when instead it would be much more useful to get books full of level appropriate encounters
I'm interested. What type of encounters do you build and for what type of party?
Know the rules so you can break them properly.