The TRUTH about the “new” refrigerants | R32 and R454B refrigerants phase in
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 16 ก.ย. 2024
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In this video, we do a deep dive on the new refrigerants coming to the market in USA. Speciifcally the refrigerants R32 and R454B. We explain why theyre being phased in and the differences between the two refrigerants, as well we which one we prefer.
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HVAC tech of 15 yrs here, still running both of the original 1989 r22 2.5 ton systems in the house I purchased in 2012. Will continue to run these units til their dying breath. I have upgraded from the original carrier natural draft furnaces.
Based
My 89 r-22 unit just quit 😢
The phase-out for R454b is on the radar in Europe. They found out about the “forever chemicals” known as PFAS that are in this refrigerant but NOT R32. Of course DuPont will come out with a “new & safe” gas just in time for everyone to buy new A/C units. Don’t worry, you WILL get used to this sort of thing after a few more times.
Yeah planned obsolescence… can’t stand DuPont I tell everyone I know to watch dark waters lol. That’s crazy I didn’t think 454b was being used in Europe already? I thought it was a blend of R32 and 1234yf and they haven’t been using it in the field yet? Weird I’ll have to do more research
@@TheHVACDopeShow 454b may not be currently use in Europe, my research on refrigerant options lead me to see how much stuff they were looking at due to PFAS, R32 was not included. I’m currently working on planning a replacement of a running 38 year old R22 Goodman. The last tech that was here to change out a capacitor, said the company owner directed service that no more refrigerant services would be performed on units that used banned refrigerants and customers were told these units just need to be replaced. Nobody could give me a good answer as to why they want to sell systems with another evolving refrigerant ban R410a, nor why the supposedly 25% more expensive 454b units can’t be priced yet. Do I need to say what their response was when I asked about products manufactured by the Daikin group, which they do not sell?
@@TheHVACDopeShowWhat does Freon Look like Is it like mist or water
@@MechagodzillaDraws all refrigerants evaporate once they hit our atmosphere. There are colored jugs that represent one type versus another, but they are getting ready to change that and all will be white jug with red colored top. Better hope if you need refrigerant the tech gives you the right type your unit needs in the future. If your unit gets the wrong type that it needs it won't work and due to price of refrigerants not a cheap fix. If you were able to look at a certain refrigerant thru a sight glass as an example, you wouldn't be able to tell what type or kind it is. It's a clear looking liquid thru a refrigerant sight glass.
@@AustinAirCoif you had three glass bottles, one containing vodka, one with white tequila, and one with rubbing alcohol, would you be able to tell them apart just by looking? 😋
Jump Cuts like mad 🤯
I know it was too much we’re trying to tone it down…
Just Subscribed for your Very well Explained info 👍👍
Thanks! Glad you found it helpful
South America and many many other countries still use R22 the best refrigerant
I want a R290 (propane) or C02 mono-block system .. and I’ll wait until they are here as I live in a colder region and these are better options for hot water.
Hopefully they’re here soon! Might be waiting a while but if you don’t need it yet then no rush 😁
I was reading about this in like 2006 crazy how long change takes
My Daikin AC in Italy from 2015 is R32
I’m sure it is 😁 They’ve been using R32 for a while in Europe / other countries so it’s by no means a “new” refrigerant.
After watching the video I'm honestly still unclear when its worth waiting and when it is not. I understand your point of the planned obsolescence, but we still have to play into their game at the end of the day, and which way would you go? If it were your house and you were about to purchase a system (not an emergency replacement), would you wait a few months for a R32 redesign of the Daikin Fit for example? Or would you buy a non-R32 Fit today, not regrets? Thank you for your videos, I learn a lot from them.
Its hard to answer as the HVAC tech because I’ve bought 410a systems personally knowing this is happening… short answer is yes I’d wait for R32. But I’ll give you more context, we’ve installed two new systems one at the shop and our home knowing this was happening within a few years, but at this point if you can wait I’d probably buy an R32 system just because it’s the newer stuff. But I’m also comfortable working on my own equipment if something fails so as much as I’d like to exclude that bias it’s still there… I think if it was my moms house or close friends house I’d be 50/50 split with no regrets because the benefit of 410a is that there’s no shutoff safety switches for refrigerant leaks like there are on the R32 air handlers - which is good because you have to actually fix leaks now and can’t just top off a perpetual leak… but it’s bad for the same reason that in the middle of summer if a coil failed or something, then the R32 safety circuit would prevent it from starting until the leak is actually fixed. This just makes me nervous if I’m trying to get something to cool for a night in the middle of summer in an extreme climate like Phoenix I couldn’t top it off with a lb and come back the next day, I’d have to deal with it right away. Practically speaking R32 is a better call but I am starting to see you can get good deals on SEER1 410a equipment now that the SEER2 stuff is phased in fully, so if price is a determining factor and you can get a smokin deal that’s another thing that might sway me just knowing that I’m getting some close out equipment. If I lived in a hot coastal climate like coastal Florida with a 10 year replacement cycle I probably wouldn’t think twice… for what it’s worth Daikin is honoring 410a equipment failures with R32 equipment if there’s ever a catastrophic failure which is a very nice warranty for people buying stuff right now having peace of mind. Long answer but lots to consider, hope that helped and didn’t confuse you more, it should be a non issue soon in most places because we’re already getting R32 equipment in a few of the models.
@@TheHVACDopeShow Awesome, thanks for the insights. Yeah I'm in the position where I got a recent ducted daikin fit quote that was a couple thousand less than last year's quote. Thought it was too good to be true, now I'm realizing its a 410a clearance discount. I'm in the PNW so I am tempted to get the 410a system at 2-3K less than I had anticipated. But we're already so backwards in the US with refrigerants, it is a shame to get stuck with the older one. But the discount is pretty decent and makes it much more possible to recoup the system cost over it's life. That is cool to know a warranty replacement would be honored with a r32 system.
The difference between some GWP values, might be because some report the 25 year average, and others the 100y average.
The 25y value is usually a lot worse for substances with short atmospheric half-life.
I will have to look into this because I’m actually not versed on refrigerant half lives, thanks for the comment and homework!😁
I’m in this boat right now. Leak in the system that first identified itself 4 years ago, recharged twice but now the compressor is shot and with the system being 18 years old, recommended to completely replace.
I am leaning towards sticking with 410A.
they are selling 410a pound for 100$ after next years they will be selling 200$ most likely. i have evap coil leaking system i put stop leak and sticking until this dies
Don’t forget R32 already makes up 50% of R410a , a small technicality you most likely can’t light R32 straight from the bottle, there’s a very small window of R32 and oxygen mixture that can ignite R32 , I can give you ore details about this if you need it, thanks 🙏
I didn’t realize it was just R32 and R125, that’s interesting to note! Not much of a change after all I guess!
The problem isn't necessarily the refrigerant only. The mixture includes oil that circulates with the refrigerant, the oil as it were has a much lower burn or ignition point. Under the right conditions even R410a can ignite and burn. Don't believe me? Watch this> the era of get it on tape rather than oh put the fire out? th-cam.com/users/shortsW4PiBIyNjx0
It's flammable, therefore explosive under pressure. R22 had a head pressure of a little over 200-250.
They've been working on no flame connectors. But they'll make sure all installations and maintenance are done by their unmasked crooks
I have a Carrier AC in SWFL that was installed in 2015. My preferred HVAC company mentioned that I might want to replace before a breakdown before the change over to stay out of the guinea pig early adopter zone. I'm getting the vibe that the technicians are just unsure of the future vs giving me a sales tactic. They told me about the requirement to remove and replace the new refrigerant but they also mentioned as you did that it was also true of 410 but it was loosened up a bit once things settled down. I'm not sure if it was a sales pitch or just informational. They know I'm a bit more informed than most so it felt like we were having more of a casual discussion of the pros and cons of various scenarios on what to do in the future when the inevitable happens. Will I be able to get spare parts for an over 10 year old system? How long will it be cost effective to repair vs replace?
I can spend at any point in the future $10k+ on a new system and an additional $3k on end of life repairs or spend up to $1000 a year to keep my seer 17 system running as long as I can get parts. It starts to feel about even if I don't get significant efficiency savings.
You don’t have to replace it and the only thing you might have a hard time getting is a compressor but honestly that shouldn’t even be a problem for at least a decade… we can still get R22 compressors but just can’t get R22 condensers (entire outside unit / box). If you’re comfortable waiting and not in a hurry I wouldn’t rush, the R32 equipment (Daikin Goodman and Amana) is already battle tested in the field in Europe and other markets overseas so I wouldn’t worry about biting the bullet as an early adopter, 454B is carriers refrigerant and my understanding (what I’ve been told) is that this refrigerant is in fact new so you are more of a guinea pig there. Carrier is pretty reputable so either way you’re probably in ok shape
I’m confused the EPA required a lower GWP refrigerant, but you “feel” like the equipment manufactures are changing to R32 to increase equipment sales. In the words of detective Friday, Just the facts ma’am.
This is a money play, always has been always will be even reps at the parts houses agree… they don’t GAF about the EPA or the planet, this is about planned obsolescence unfortunately. There’s other refrigerants better than R32 with lower GWP, but there’s no patent so there’s nothing in it for them. No patent on R32 either buts its a lot more expensive than propane or butane or CO2
Man how many cuts did you have trying to make this video. Thank you for the info but phew that was choppy
No takes I think it’s just the editing style is too punchy
So when u have a leak you now have a fire hazard when it hits your hot water heater pilot or the furnace lights up? Or even flipping a light switch.
Not really, it’s kind of exaggerated watch some of the videos on the flammability tests it won’t stay lit without an external flame source like a lighter or something… thus the a2l classification and “mild” flammability rating
the editing of your video creates a weirdly artificial aspect to it because in places where there ought to be slight pauses, either there are no pauses or they're so short as to be unnaturally so.
I know the editing is a little too tight
prices continue to go up because of more and more complicated government regulations . need to cut the budgets of multiple 3 letter agencies including the EPA
I really don't agree with the rhetoric right now of pushing installs of 410a systems this year because "the new refrigerant" will cause prices to increase. I don't see that playing out much over the natural increase in prices. I do foresee many unscrupulous contractors pushing for system replacements on the basis of "410a has been banned". It just seems like every change is being used as an opportunity to scare the consumer into making unnecessary purchases.
Yeah I’m in the same boat when I heard people saying “hurry get your 410a while it last” I was a little surprised… it’s really not a big deal to me either way and Daikin is backing there warranties with R32 units so if someone buys a 410a system in the next month and the coil goes bad in a few years or something, they’re replacing it with an R32 coil not the other way around.
Buyer beware.
Just installed an R32 unit today. Only a 3% increase in price vs 410. New furnaces when they come will be 8%
R454B will be patented until 2030, both refrigerants will be high cost and there is no full production stop planned at this time. No matter what customers are going to be paying more, just depends on if the customer wants to have lower initial cost.
@@FreonChugger I'm not a fan of 454B. From what I've seen, as R32 has become more available the price has dropped. As of the current price it's just slightly above 410a. R32 being single component will lend itself better to recycling.
They can say they are getting rid of R22 and 410a because of GWP or ODP but I think we know it's due to 💵💰💲
Bingo
It’s funny some people have argued with me about this and I’m kinda like bruh… since when is it NOT about 💰😂… even my vendors and I were joking about it, kind of obvious IMO
I get the sense that simple, less pressure, smaller system that r32 is going to make better financial sense that’s the r454b over time even with its higher thermal space. Next round will likely be r32 and sadly carrier is out.
I agree I think R32 is a better refrigerant because the charge is lower and systems are smaller which means higher efficiency, and smaller systems as opposed to some of the massive condensers we’ve had to have with 410A
God bless loper bright
Love watching your videos. I live in Montana and have radiant floor heating but no air conditioning. Watching your videos has sold me on the Daikin Altherma which I understood was coming out in the US this fall. Currently my water is heated by an electric boiler. I am looking for the efficiency of a heat pump with the added bonus of cooling. So far I have been unable to find a source for the Altherma in the US. Do you have any new information about the Altherma?
Rick
Right on! Yes it’s coming out q4 of this year, maybe q1 of 2025, but as soon as it’s out I’m going to probably do an install video on one for people and review of performance and features etc.
What R-32 Air to Water Heat Pumps are available now in the U.S. in September of 2024? Daikin? Fujitsu?
Solstice Spacepak but not sure if the 410a is the only one available or if r32 is yet. Daikin Altherma is soon if not already, very close! I’d have to check on Fujitsu or the other brands but I know that stuff is just now starting to rollout
I have watched and enjoyed a number of your vids and find them informative, please accept this as constructive criticism your editing is Migraine inducing with all the sharp chops and jerks, exhausting to watch.
No worries thanks for the feedback will pass this along
I've got a couple more years and I'm out of this game and can't wait , I already have a van full of different refrigerants and recovery tanks , I'm sick of this BS
I don’t blame you!
@@larryhatfield7372 we all are!
410A has almost no glide, it’s very negligible, and most manufacturers state you can top it off.
We’ve topped it off and haven’t had issues
Then the greedy, corrupt, refrigerant manufactures and distributors can make double digit profit increases annually for the next 20 years on 410A!
Yes it’s kind of annoying but it already got expensive in 2020-22, and didn’t come back down until 23’, but refrigerant manufacturer is basically a subsidiary of DuPont aka the ones from the dark waters movie who are the reason the whole planet has teflon in their blood
Thanks for this.
My pleasure!
Figures a change is coming.
I just replaced my R-22 system that was installed in 200 with a R-410A last month, and a new refrigerant type is coming soon...
It’s honestly not the end of the world… as you can see some of the techs advocate for 410a systems since you don’t have mitigation controls from the mild flammability, which is a plus because your systems won’t stop running with 410a if you have a mild leak. There’s 16 years left before the phaseout of 410a so it’s not an overnight thing
@@TheHVACDopeShow , yeah, but the issue will arise in 20 years like I had just now though,
My system needed the refrigerant replaced (I screwed a screw into my coil like an idiot when replacing a capacitor) and the cost of R-22 is just crazy high.
I could have had the hole brazed and then refilled the system, but the cost of the R-22 + labor and still having a 20 year old system with a refrigerant that is getting harder to find and just more expensive as time goes on vs the cost of a new system and not having to worry about it for decades, well, new system won. If I could have had R-22 for $10/lb, sure, but at $100-150/lb, no thanks.
Question is, will R-410A be priced like R-22 is now in 20 years?
@@blupupher The price of 410a has already started to rise. Over the next few years there is no question the price will increase further.
The interesting thing is the price of r22 has actually come down. I was able to purchase r22 at around $50/lb this year where is years past it was nearly double that. Price follows demand and even though there is no more r22 being imported or produced, the demand has dropped substantially with all the systems being replaced.
@@TheHVACDopeShow BUT if everyone does this stays with R410a equipment? There will be a shortage of R410a as early as the next drop down which I believe is 2028 or 2029. There won't be enough supply to meet demand, prices will explode. *You voted, and you're welcome* how dare you bring politics into it? Nothing is done in this country without *VOTES* if you didn't vote, you voted for it. This will not be like R22, there is no massive stock pile to work thru.
Don't worry about it. If you get 20yrs out of a new system your fortunate. Just set it and forget it.
FYI; The phase out has been delayed by one year.
This new Interim Final Rule allows for the inventory of higher-GWP HFC equipment manufactured or imported before January 1, 2025, to be installed until January 1, 2026.
Good to know!
oh wow but whenever i replace my leaking system i will go with r32 or r454b i won't install 410a because they will charge crazy prices in future for refrigerant
TLDR phase down of refrigerants is more about profit than about the environment. R-32 was invented in the later 60s, why didn't it just replace the CFC or replace R22 then? Money, it's all about money and it'll always be that way. Now we've gone from refrigerant like 410 being around 95-140 a bottle to R32 and 454B be 250-350 and only be 20LBS of gas per new bottle......
Unfortunately seems to be the way things are going
My 4 year old condenser just blew the coil. It's under warranty. I got a quote of $1,600 and $1,800 to install the warranty coil. I can't bring myself to pay that because $750 of the quote is for 7.6lb of r-410a. I'm fine with the labor charge, but a 1000% markup on refrigerant is crazy! So, I just purchased an entire system to replace both units. The total cost is just under double the repair cost, and I have all new.
I couldn't pay $100/lb for something that costs $10/lb. The new condenser comes pre charged. I also bought a 25lb tank of refrigerant for $250 to have on hand.
Is is technically possible to use any kind of refrigerant? Are they interchangeable or can the equipment be damaged if a refrigerant is changed?
Not interchangeable at all no, they have different design pressures and operating conditions. You will definitely damage your system this way. They have “drop in” replacements after they’re phased out like Nu22 (R422B) which can be used in place of R22 for example and has similar properties, but no you can’t drop 410a in an R32 or 454B system
All bput the money ! People will not be able to afford ac. Not that flamable? Carrier has all these safety devices in airhandler or furnace . Meetings i got to sounds like they're passing liability on the contractor
Have there been comparisons between energy cost to operate of new refrigerant units vs r410a units?
I believe so and the jist is they’re slightly more efficient buts it’s an EPA / GWP based play… I’ve looked at the new numbers and they’re not that noticeable in terms of giant leaps forward in efficiency. Some of the ductless systems have some high numbers but all in all pretty close
In no way is it a planned obscolescance for manufactures to sell units.
Then why not phase in CO2 or other refrigerants that are even better? In the USA it’s about making money period, even my vendors are in agreement on this lol there’s no question they’ll be another phaseout in 20 years. Why phase in a refrigerant that’s already talked about being phased out in Europe then? I think it’s naive to think otherwise honestly but that’s just my opinion 😁 and several other industry professionals opinions as well. Sure they’ll be improvements in efficiencies and tech, but in this country it’s all about the 💰
As a person looking into installing a mini split system. What do think will happen to unsold system going into the new year. Will they be returned to the manufacturer or do they go on sale to make way for the systems with the new refrigerate.
They’re already kind of priced accordingly but they won’t be manufacturing 410a equipment as of 2025 so I’m not sure honestly. It will likely stay at a slight discount like it is currently
@@TheHVACDopeShow thanks for the reply. I'm just on the fence on if I should buy now or wait until closer to the end of the year.
They'll push their old crap at even higher prices. See in this game, the hundreds of millions of homeowners are stupid suckers. Just ask any sub cool expert.
Hundreds of millions of homeowners p. Hmm, you'd think it would be rhe cheapest to buy and install, instead of rhe most expensive systems going. They're pricing themselves out of business. It's not worth it.
So, I will not be able to buy new 410 A equipment by the end of 2024?
Allegedly they extended it through 2025 to be installed to allow manufacturers to clear out existing inventory but yes this is the last year to get 410 equipment basically, and the refrigerant will be around for a while longer
My Trane supplier just bought a shit load of 410a equipment so we can keep installing it as long as possible. I can still remember the changeover to 410a and all the LEAKS associated with it because manufacturers just changed the metering device and kept the old welds and seals. What a nightmare. I was still installing r22 I think until 2006. Then they sold units charged with nitrogen that could be used with 22. So there are ways around it.
Why do mfgs. limit residential systems to 5 tons/60K btus? My home has 3 5 ton one two and a half and one 2 ton and one one and a half ton units each with its own ducts and condensors and air handlers.of six complete systems. With changing refrigerant and varing types of collants in my different aged systems this for me this causes many issues with servicing and costs to replace for entire system would be daunting and not solve the problem long term as the refrigerants keep changing. Ray Stormont
Probably duct sizing since one system doesn’t work well for a large home anyways because you’re not going to have a central air Handler… this is going be a LONG phaseout so I literally would not worry about it because chances are your 6 systems will break at various intervals and it’s not going to create as many issues as you might think. Techs are used to this and also 410a is going to be available for basically another 20 years, and manufactured for another 15 years so it’s going to be a slow process
Practicality and cost. At 5 tons you are looking at 60 amp per unit on single phase. And also just like @TheHVACDopeShow duct sizing and many other system design challenges arise. Once you get into 3 phase 10+ ton VRV or VRF systems are available for large residential or light commercial settings. But there is a cost factor too where multiple 5 ton or less units make more financial sense.
Great video. However how does r454b and r32 do when osa is over 95 degrees. Testing in the lab is normally is preformed at/under 95 degrees osa. Being in the desert I’ve seen 125-135 osa on a rubber roof or you have multiple ac’s discharging into one other in July or August than it’s 145-148 degrees I’ve seen 500 to 525 psi using r410 because of the heat. I guess we’ll find out later under those conditions after the check cleared.
They use R32 overseas already in places like Saudi / Middle East so R32 is battle tested allegedly… but we shall see!
Hvac tech with 37 years experience.... wait until the last possible moment to go new technology, new refrigerant... etc. Let someone else work out the manufactures bugs.... from, lessons learned the hard way. Manufactures do not care about me or you!
Tell the people how much all these freons cost per pound. Almost every house in America has whole house systems, and boy did everyone in the business know how to put it to these millions of homeowners. It's no $1.00 per 12 oz can. Pure gouge with some of the best excuses you can come up with. Sub cool... LOL 😂😂
u explained exactly why they're phasing it out and then chose to misunderstand it. good luck with your brain
Seriously! This is exactly NOT planned obsolescence. He explained gwp 30 seconds earlier. SMH
I mean the r410 systems just don’t last that long already. The higher pressures doomed that. I’ll take a lower pressure system please :). Looking forward to skipping r410 on my home systems.
Not sure what you’re referencing because your comment doesn’t really say anything about what you disagree with, and then (sounds like) try’s to attack my intelligence🤔… let’s be real - if you think refrigerant phaseouts are going to save the planet you’re as gullible as they come. It’s about corporate greed and planned obsolescence, if it wasn’t we’d be transitioning to R290 / natural refrigerants and Monoblock technology because there is zero chance of a phaseout. Since when does the EPA actually GAF about the environment or consumer? They fined DuPont 16 MILLION for dumping C8 (Teflon) into the river when the company literally caused BILLIONS in damages. It’s a joke. But it’s fine, you can just keep trying to insult me instead of explaining yourself when you’re confronted with facts that challenge your belief structure. And I’ll keep putting out content with my actual beliefs, using my brain, because I don’t base my life on the what the peanut gallery has to say👍
@@TheHVACDopeShow so reducing gwp is a….bad thing, a false narrative? Not sure what message you are trying to send. One of the few good things humans have done to combat climate problems is phasing out CFCs how is this any different?
@@TheHVACDopeShow I agree with you. My only feedback would be that the transition from the GWP/ODP explanation to the planned obsolesce was clunky. I am glad that there will be support for 410a systems out to 2040. I have one 410a system and one r22. When my r22 system springs a leak, I will have to replace it due to the cost of r22. But I've gotten 18 years out of it (so far) here in DFW, so it has been solid, and I have gotten my money's worth out of it. With support for 410a out to 2040, I'm hoping that the cost of refrigerant will not be a big factor in determining when to replace the 410a system.
This editing is so jerky it's making me sick to my stomach.
This wasn’t the best I agree it’s choppy
GWP- bullshit
Wtf I just bought a new system 😐 😳.. this isn't fair 😤 😐 😔 😑 😒 😕
I feel you but honestly don’t sweat it, R410 is going to be around for a LONG while… I would not lose sleep over it and there’s perks to having 410a. It won’t be phased out for over a decade + so it’s not going anywhere anytime soon.
@@TheHVACDopeShow thank you 😊
Also, R-410 sounds like it'll be less expensive than the newer refrigerants.