Thank you all for watching my video. Make sure to check out a couple of my other Geothermal videos: Geothermal Cost Breakdown: th-cam.com/video/mjWsSmjAOeU/w-d-xo.html Geothermal 4 year review: th-cam.com/video/xc_BbbMi1cg/w-d-xo.html
Can a “burn barrel” for our trash be implemented into this kind of system? Really I’m just tired of forgetting to set the herby out on the Curb. But if the trash could be repurposed and utilized for heating, that would be cool
Wow! I'm a commercial building engineer and this is the best explanation I have seen of a residential use break down of a heat pump and geothermal systems. No youtube hype filler. Thank you for a great video!
@@Martin_HermannYour fridge is a heat pump. If you feel the air coming out of the vent (usually bottom front) it is warm air. That air was heated by pumping heat out of your fridge (via coils and a compressor). Pumping heat out of the fridge keeps it cold. Residential geothermal is the same idea, but the inside of the fridge is replaced by the ground.
I work for a Geothermal exclusive company in the NW Chicago area. We do the entire job start to finish. Vertical boring is what you do in a city...it is possible in most areas. 150ft/ton straight down. We bore 5" holes drop the pipe, grout with bentonite/graphite mix. Also we use methanol as an antifreeze and have protection to 15°F. Not possible on every city job. But many more than most people think. I am one of very few Geothermal service techs in the area as well. I cant lie. Self installed Geo systems scare me. I have seen some nightmare jobs. That being said. This is a VERY GOOD VIDEO. Informative and correct in all aspects. Great job on this sir!
I was digging a 14 deep 3/4 acre lake /pond on my property so I simply laid my collection system in the bottom of the pond which luckily was blue clay hardpan and then covered it with 4 inches of sand backfill . My unit was a 4 ton and my home was 2300 sq ft with 10 ft ceilings and 18 ft in my large living room . My electrical bill for the year was 825 dollars total for heat and air conditioning . Excellent
@@KznnyL Solar what? photovoltaics? They might last 20 to 25 years. They are environmental disasters because of the rare earth metals used, there destroy our planet worse than oil or coal. The FIRST system in every house should be SOLAR HOT WATER (and solar sub-floor heating). The second system might be best as geothermal cooling. The pumps for solar hot water and for geothermal can be photovoltaic as that might make sense, but photovoltaic in general is an environmental crime.
@@KarlAlfredRoemer I don't know. All valves are built in the heating pump unit. Only 2 ports are used to cycle water in ground heat exchanger. The only problem occured in 2009, had to change a fuse after a lightning strike.
Expansion valve , can you share the build ? You guys are way over thinking this , It's simple , I'm doing the exact same thing except I'm using a small pump , It pumps water from a 22 foot deep and 4 foot diameter water Well , the water comes up around 55° degrees , goes through a simple car radiator and runs back into the well , I use an everyday square box fan like you can buy a store to blow the 55° degree temperature out in the summer and it cools , but in winter and it's 32° and freezing , I'm still blowing 55° degree heat out , I have a Wood Burner for heat , so I don't really use it as much as I do in the summer
Thank you for your video on geothermal heat/air. I built my home about 15 years ago and installed two 3 ton heat pumps. I have been considering updating them to geothermal to get more efficiency and because I have a five acre pond 250 foot from my home that I could use in a closed loop system. The pond stays at a consistent depth because of some springs that feed it. I also have a backhoe to dig a trench from the house to the pond. Being retired and 76 years old I have not been as inclined to do this as I would have 15 years ago! But you have inspired me.
@@josoffat7649 I believe these are the ones using water/methanol**. It’s an anti freeze but carries a lot of heat per unit of flow. In hard water areas use rainwater with a corrosion inhibitor.
Had a geothermal unit added at my home in the 1990's. I forgot to have it checked for 20 years, called my installer and he said if I was having no problem leave it alone so I have. Love this thig, figure I save $100. per month on electric bill from my old heat pump.
I'm recommending this to my airport manager as he is thinking of developing some new hangers/building at our municipal airport. He loves DIY and this could spark some new ideas since we have a lot of land to work with. -Thank you!
Thanks for that Video I can add some points that you didn't mention. 1) you forgot to mention that not only the cold side of the heat pump makes a difference in cop but also the hot side. At first I would optimize at the inside. You showed pictures of ducts inside the house. I assume your heat pump creates warm air that is going to be distributed across your building. As you mentioned water is more eglibe for transfering heat, i would suggest to use that instead of air. normally at my home country you would run coils in the floor of your building, warming that. That way the heat pump only has to heat up the water to 95°F in winter time to keep your home warm. The pump that delivers the heat to the whole building eats up only about 10 - 30 Watts, what is sure less than a fan needs. Additionally in the rooms you won't have noise and air movement. 1b) We here also do some ducts but we run them only to exchange the used air against fresh air from outside so you need to open the windows less for air quality. This air is brought inside the building by a heat recovery exchanger to lessen the heat loss. 2) to decide if a ground heat source or outside air source is better it is important to knwo where you're at, how many hours per year it is going to be how cold. If you know that you can do the math and then decide the annual more - or less energy you need for either system 3) you also want to have your ground analysed to know if it is better or worse suitable for the geothermal system you describe before making descisions 4) There is no xxx feet of pipe is needed per ton. this is absolutely dependent on the kind of ground and the operating hours per year, and if you plan to use antifreeze in the system. There are people around who have software to simulate this. 5) Antifreeze: Normally you want to use 0% or 20 - 33% of antifreeze, if you use glycol. the glycol we get here contains anticorrosive elements. Therefore you better inform yourself and fill in the mixture that is mandated by the manufacturer. If you design your coil for usage with plain water and get into trouble you can always later change to antifreeze filling. Be aware that you will never design your coil to be sub zero celsius (freezing point of water), or you'll suffer of performance of your ground coil, or even destroy it as time goes by if you repeatingly freeze the ground around it. 6) If you need to cool the house in summer you can use the water of about soil temperature and send it to your pipes in the floor. that way you don't need any energy (apart from the two pumps) to cool down your house. If you are at a warmer region and that is not enough you can reverse your heat pump or have a air handler that is connected to the outside coil 7) if your garden is to small then use vertical drilled holes. they need to be quite long and this is nothing for DIY, as it requires special skills. the length and the amount of those borings need to be simulated, to ensure that you will be able to use them for the desired life span. in several hundred feet depth the heat is not really easy moved and if your vertical collector is to small you risk of cooling it down to an unusable temperature in 5 or 10 years. by the way: if you connect your AC to it and heat your heat source up in summer time it helps a lot, so you need smaller borings and get an almost infinite life span out of it. 8) water quality: I'm pleased somebody speaks about the water that is going to be filled in a circuit. yes, you can use destilled water, that's great. At my place we have special water softener resin cartridge that take out all of the salt (not to mistake for ion exchanger resin that can be regenerated with salt), what gives almost the same quality of water as destilled water. Advantage: you don't have to carry the water around but have a small cartridge you connect to your tap water. Cheaper? maybe not, depends. 9) about the layout of your trench: it is not always best to dig as low as possibe. The design of your collector needs to make as much as possible use of the ground between the collectors. If you speak a little bit of german or know how to use the translator then you can find tons of useful informations and another angle of sight how we're doing such things in europe. Assumed you understand metric units maybe you will find it interesting to read on some forums and company websites. try following words in google: grabenkollektor, ringgrabenkollektor, trenchplanner.
They can go deep with a closed loop system, if you have limited space. Instead of drilling two wells for an open loop, you drill one hole and place the heat sink loop in the hole. It may not be as efficient as placing that loop at one specific depth, but it's still way more efficient than air to air heat exchanges.
Important to note that when using distilled water or reverse osmosis water (RO), you have to be careful about what fittings and piping are used and where. Polypropylene, Polyethylene and 316L SS are preferred for high purity waters. You can use PVC and CPVC, but they are more prone to failure long term. This particularly true when using glycols for freeze protection.
@@Challenged1 No, bad points. Very pure water has a resistance of something like 18.2 Meg ohms. In order for corrosion to occur, there needs to be an anode and a cathode, and some impurities in the water for the ion exchange to occur. For example, try electrolysis on some lab grade ultra pure distilled water at a low voltage. It won't work because the water is a very good insulator. Add a little baking soda to it however, and suddenly you'll get good production of Brown's gas (2:1 hydrogen to oxygen ratio).
I would suggest just using filtered tap water as long it is of decent quality. The mineral content in a closed loop is fixed at the first fill, and as long as it doesn't require regular topping off, the limited mineral content is not enough to cause any problems down the road.
Hey quick comment. In my experience, I've used 50/50 for non automotive use. As an automotive professional, I know that antifreeze/coolant also has lubricants, anti corrosion, anti organic life, on top of other additives. Diluting antifreeze may cause premature impeller and bearing wear, loss of anticorrosive properties, and affect the PH level allowing organic life to grow. Mind you this takes a really long time. Even though you may not need "antifreeze", I do recommend something like freezetone that offers such additives to continue protecting your system with superior conductive properties.
in some places it is not legal to allow anti freeze to be used in a circuit that is not independent of the well altogether. Actually that should not be legal. this would mean two exchangers mot likely.
We installed a closed loop geothermal five years ago in a single 450’ well. It supplies all our heating, air conditioning, and hot water. We did not hook up the backup hvac heat strips nor the backup hot water elements. No problems, and we have only had annual preventative maintenance services. We elected to do the single well rather than the ditches all over our yard. Our power bills have been low all year and we have been well pleased with the system.
We are building a new home on land and only option is propane. Builder is recommending a heat pump but trying to find a better/cheaper way to heat and cool my home. Any tips?
@@JohnSmith-fi2gu Geo is the way to go. Just put a new one in January it is a Water furnace brand probably one of the top of the line you can get. Old one was 27 years old when it stopped working. Other then servicing it yearly nothing was every replace on it. Acid flushed it every 2 to 3 years. Was looking at option and talk to my electric supplier and they said spend the money on the Geo bills will be lower. the install was $17 k for 3ton unit we have a open loop system water well and then drain tile. You can do vertical wells and a closed loop system or the ground system. The hot water is not really something you will get much benefits from because of how it is done the installer said and my location as well.
We have had geo thermal now for 5 years. Best hvac system for comfort and low electric bills year round. Can freeze out the house in august and not worry about the bill.
Our property has one too, but we disconnected it a couple years after moving in. It was set up badly by the previous owner. It was done professionally, but not well. They used two deep rock wells. One to pull the water out of, and service the water needs of our property, and the other well to dump the water back into. The problem we had was the pump drawing the water out of the main well, was always breaking down, and had to be serviced several times a year. I think a ground loop is the way to go, but we never got around to having one installed.
I’m in school as an HVAC Tech, and my school had us working with a geothermal setup. Ever since then I’ve been fascinated. I’m glad I found your channel, I’m looking forward to viewing more of your content
I have a geo system in a suburban neighborhood with a 0.4 acre lot. It runs a closed, 460’ deep single loop. Been running flawlessly for 5 years. Only issue I had was my neighbors thought I was insane when the 30-ton drill rig showed up at my house!
That is crazy deep. Mine was 6 loops 67 feet deep in my wooded side lot. Neighbors were all like wtf seeing the drilling rig.working. in my side lot. $15,000 for the drilling in the late 90's. In heating mode the system ran at 1/3 the cost of the electric baseboards it replaced.
You can do something very similar on a boat in some areas. The water around the boat is typically cooler than the air in summer and warmer than the air in winter. If you can utilize this difference you are that much more efficient. Marine heat pumps have been around for years and my particular favorite is the MarineAir 16,000 btu 120 volt model. There are things you must do however. There must be an hull strainer and an in line raw water strainer before the water pump. The strainer and pump must be below the water level that’s outside of the hull. There must be a flow switch (not provided) to shut things down if there’s an obstruction. Loss of flow can be more catastrophic in winter because slow flowing water can freeze the water in the heat exchanger, rupture and flood the hull. Moisture alarms throughout a boat is always a good idea. A condensate pump to move water overboard is also required. It’s also preferable to have the heat pump unit above water level so when it cycles off some water runs backwards through the impeller pump and the two strainers help with backwashing and keeping things clear.
Great explanation of heat pump technology! I put one in my house 18 years ago and cut my electric bill by about 60 plus percent and summer time hot water for free. Used my old hot water heater as tank and a new in demand hot water heater. I am absolutely thrilled with the technology! Regards
My father's cousin installed a well type geothermal system in her yoga center in the late 1980's. I have had dreams of building a system exactly as you describe for several years now. Since I would build this into my existing hydronic heating system, my main investments would be in a water to water geothermal unit and a some small fan-coils with condensate drains to be used for hydronic cooling on a separate loop. I have a backhoe attachment for my tractor, keeping the trenching investment down to diesel and time like in your case. Thank you for the guidance on tax incentives - I was considering looking into that aspect and you gave me some good places to start. Nice work on your build and I am happy to see that you have had such a positive result!
Once I saw a system that uses solar vacuum tubes in which the sun heats the water inside and the water doesn't lose temperature to the environment because of the vacuum walls. It works even in forecast days and can boil water even in snow, that was pretty clever too!
Great video very informative. That being said I work for a company that treats these types of systems and there are a few things to keep in mind. Yes water is better at transferring heat but if you go below 18% glycol you will have sever bacterial growth in the system. This can rob it of efficiency while also causing maintenance issues. I wouldn't go below 30% with a glycol mix. Also if you are using a gycol mix it is extremely important that the water you mix it with is pure water whether that be distilled, DI or RO because regular water will form precipitates that can reek havoc on the system like the bacteria. I like the comment below me on using methanol although going with just water and keeping it moving would work too.
I built 12 years ago. Three zones with 6T of cooling. Four trenches 12 feet deep with 9,000 ft of 1" HDPE tube. Great system and very efficient. 29SEER Florida H.P. now Bosch.
I installed 2 geothermal heat pumps when I had my house built back in 2001. Had engineers design the system for a 2.5 ton for one area of the house and 3 ton for larger area. Used 300’ per ton as length of tubing. So ended up with 2 loops 6-8’ deep one goes out with pipe in bottom of trench leak tested and back filled with 2’ over that pipe, top pipe is 6’ deep for a total for 2.5 ton is 1000’ 3 ton unit has 1 continuous loop of 1000’ 8-10th deep. System was designed without additional electric heat for a backup. In 21 years have not needed it either, even at 10pm outside. Very happy with this system. Did not use anything but water with make up valve and expansion tank, no glycol at all. Pipes are in the attic which I run 2 pumps in winter 24/7 to prevent them from freezing, summer they run with compressors. Did all the work myself except for the digging, hired that for $1,000.00, and I tested for leaks and back filled myself. Would do it again except would use antifreeze with a back flow preventer. House has 6’’ walls and very efficient. Heat pumps are Trane.
We had GT done here in northern west Michigan of course it’s all sand they went at least 15 feet down on a closed loop works great we have filled our propane tank once in 4 years and we use most of propane in the fire place, we received two years of tax breaks and money from the electric cooperative, one of the best investment’s ever we also run on solar and have batteries.
We're same boat. No natural gas, 100% electric. Trying to move our house off-grid for power and heating and cooling are the biggest obstacles. We have plenty of land and I'd love to try. We just replaced the downstairs unit and the HVAC guy talked us out of GT. My guess, even though they list it as a service, they probably don't like to do them. I like the idea of doing it myself. Another excuse to rent machinery!
@@johnwillard6749 that's what we'd like it for. We installed grid-tied solar 2 years ago with the plan of going off-grid when storage becomes more affordable.
here in sweden we do a lot of geothermal. the area required is about a few square meters as we use a borehole of about 120 meter depth (closed loop). the whole process is highly automated and a heat well is done in about a days work, start to finish. the heat pumps used have a cop value of about 5. in summer time they can dump heat from thebhouse down the well. abd thebwhole installation can be done on the parking lot.
@@asdasdasdasdasd9795 installation costs are pretty standard the heatpumps is about 7000 dollars, and the installation about as much (done by proffesionals in about 1-2 days) so in total about 14k dollars (at current conversion rate). in running cost it takes aproximately 20 kwh per 24/h period to heat a normal hose (including hot water) in the winter time. so yeah whatever your electricity cost. normal lifespan is about 25 years on the pump.
@@johndoe1909 I’d be very interested in some good links if you have some! Chrome translates sites pretty well. Or even just the correct terms to search on in Swedish. Air source heat pumps for hot water are rare here in Australia and ground source even rarer. Would be super interesting to see how Sweden arranges it.
This was popular back in the 70's where I live . However, were out in the middle of nowhere Tennessee. We also do something like this , but use compost piles instead. Our compost piles are 20 feet wide by 100+ feet long and about 10 feet tall. The water gets up to 150 degrees. I have one heating my shop right now.
thats actually really interesting! but in that case arent you only taking care of heating for cold weather? that doesnt sound like a solution for cooling in hot weather as useful as it sounds for heating
I'm a fellow Tennessean and I love the idea. I'm wanting to convert to being more self sufficient. Gardens animals and doing stuff like this. Can you give me some advice?
This was my first exposure to seeing how a geothermal system actually looks. I am very interested in this technology and have not bought land yet, so I really appreciate your tips about a large piece of land and building in clay soil.
You can do closed loop system in small areas too. Drilling isn’t exclusive to open loop. You can put pipe down frillier boreholes and fuse it all in a header system in ground or in house. Very popular way to do it. Just remember to grout your boreholes for best conductive with the earth.
I installed a Fujitsu 12RL mini split heat . pump several years ago and am totally glad I did. 1 unit, centrally located in my 1900 sq ft ranch. I live in Maine and have wood as a back up. The unit produced useful heat at -15 F one winter - it is only rated to -10F by the manufacturer, I was told that is as cold as the testing equipment got. I usually burned 6-7 cords of wood a year, the installer said I would only need1/2 cord a year to supplement the few extreme cold days. I could hardly believe him but he was right on the money. I burned 1/2 cord a year for several years, and last year burned no wood at all. Essentially, a good heat pump is roughly cheaper than any heat source but wood, and about the same as wood but without the labor and mess of wood, which is considerable. I got the heat pump because I was getting older and the wood was not getting easier. I am totally happy with the result. The coldest part of the year I would burn 1 cord a month, at $200/cord. The heat pump costs, during the coldest months, about $150/month extra on my power bill. Yes, in my case it has been cheaper than wood since with wood I heated my basement also, and liked to keep the woodstove cranked right up to keep the chimney clean and heat both floors.With the heatpump, the basement is cool but not too cool. In the summer, the heat pump is way more efficient than my air conditioner was. During the hottest part of the year, the AC added $80/month to my power bill. The heat pump is much better at cooling than the AC was, and much cheaper to operate as an AC too. A mini split has no inefficient ductwork to heat or cool, and loses no electricity pumping through ducts (my understanding is ductwork can sap up to 10% additional electricity). There is a dehumidifier setting that costs about $15/ month to use continuously in the hot part of the year, and I find that when used, which is all the time in the summer in my case, the AC setting rarely is needed. When the AC setting is used, there is not much impact on my power bill, so it is clearly getting a much greater cooling bang for the buck than my old AC did. I'm totally happy with my switch to a cold climate heat pump. It paid for itself in 3 years when compared to my old oil furnace, so it will be well worth it even planning on replacing it every 12-15 years or so. The woodstove is excellent backup for power outages, which can be quite long where I live, in fact there was a three day outage this past month, and as a supplement for extended extreme cold, which has not been happening in recent years. The correct heat pump is the obvious best choice for most homes now, imo. Electricity costs are much stable than heating oil in the long term. You can make your own electricity too, with solar panels. A grid tied solar power system with a mini split or geothermal heat pump is the sweetest arrangement of all, also imo.
Can I ask something? Why don't you get a few solar panels? At least in summer time, they produce electric power for your A/C when you need it (during the day).
@@leonlowenstadter9223 I have 26 panels but have not had $ for installation due to health issues - in fact I may sell the panels which is rather heart breaking.
You can combine closed systems with standard submerged water tanks, especially if they are made from galvanised steel, which conducts heat to the surrounding earth well.
Worked at a Wastewater treatment facility, learned of buried tanks that leaking, were pulled out to learn why and where, and realized they were destroyed by thousands of tiny pinhole leaks caused by microbes in the ground. Maybe location matters. Apparently there are millions of yet unknown undiscovered microbes tearing up ocean liners too.
I put a Geothermal system a few years ago myself. The I add the solar and now have a net zero house. I did it all as experiment on build a new ICF house. I have 4 ton variable speed fan and heat pump system for Geothermal. Both are drive by dc motors. My cost was 14k with one 3-day weekend rental of backhoe and horizontal loops down 12ft. I have five 600 ft loops 12 ft apart. New house will have Geothermal but will go to radiant though out the house. I am down in southern CA.
Mark-Happy Thahnksgiving could you drop me a line? I have some questions about what you did. Doing an ICF as you describe on East coast.jksafe1994@gmail.com Thanks.
I’ve loved/wanted a gt system for years, but never felt I could afford it due to front end costs. I live in Big Bear, SoCal n would do it now but have had trouble finding someone who has had experience with gt. Any info/referral would be greatly appreciated. BTW One of the big SoCal universities did a study n figured if LA went geothermal They could save 40% of current electricity demand (everyone runs ac most of the year.) That makes green energy much easier to implement n reduces heat n hydrocarbons in the air. Let’s do it!
A little over a decade ago, while living in PA, I had to replace our furnace and AC. I chose to go geothermal. The installer put in a vertical closed loop system with two wells to take advantage of the heat transfer properties of the water. My old furnace was propane fired and was really expensive to operate (over $600/mo in the cold season). After all the tax credits, the geothermal system ended up being $8500 more than a high end hybrid propane/heat pump system. This included installation of an 80 gallon hot water heater and 55 gallon buffer tank. I had estimated a return on investment of just over 3 years. It ends up, the gt heat pump was so efficient, I got my money back in just over 2 years. Winter heating costs dropped to less than $55/mo. Summer cooling dropped by more than $100, and I also got free hot water in the summer due to the buffer tank. And, because the system ran more frequently than my old one, it was way more comfortable. I really miss that system.
@@Challenged1 , I think Kelly's question is for you. My system was professionally installed, so I don't have a full material list. The unit was a Waterfurnace Envision. I don't remember the brand of the hot water heater, buffer tank or desuperheater. Total cost before tax credits was a little under $27,000. There was a 30% federal tax credit as well as a smaller PA tax credit at the time. I still have the project proposal and my calculations on savings prior to moving, as well as annual maintenance invoices.
As a point of reference, a book I own about Earth Covered Houses, stated that the minimum amount of earth coverage required to decouple a house from the surrounding air was one metre (or yard), so going down to two or three metres would be more than enough earth coverage for the piping system. The only other thing to consider is that the deeper that you dig your trench the wider it needs to be battered back to prevent collapse during installation.
That book is not very exact. Depth is dependent upon annual frost depth which in the USA in some places is over 3 feet. Certainly there are studies in different arias that give fairly exacting temperature by depth. What you are seeking is a constant temperature zone or two zones, one for cooling and one for heating.
I've had a water furnace for 14 years now and it has performed as it should 4 years ago I added solar so now heat is free as far as monthly payments are concerned. I did the pump and dump and it has worked well.
I was shopping for a furnace once long ago and a normal natural gas furnace is $7000. So spending $17k on a geothermal unit is actually pretty fantastic. Especially that you don't have to spend the money on natural gas hookup or the monthly gas bill.
So I’m most places it would be cheaper to hear with natural gas then geothermal. The cooling component is cheaper then an ac unit but for heating natural gas is cheaper even though it is more efficient but the gas is simply cheaper to heat with.
@@sd8c With modern air-source heat pumps, in most places in the USA, burning one cubic meter of natural gas in a high efficiency furnace produces LESS heat than burning the same amount of gas at a power plant to produce electricity, sending that electricity to the house through the grid, and using that electricity to run the heat pump. Ground-source heat pumps do this even better.
@@sd8c Not that much anymore. I thought the same as you until I did a comparison just yesterday. Nat gas in April 2023 - $13.65, June - $17.29. Electric in June $18.03 kwh in my county. It's $13.53 in other counties that have their own electrical power facilities. Being made unaffordable.
There are also programs you can get using Geo through the electrical companies, I get 50 percent off of the electrical cost to run geo year round. Plus I run solar and summer cost for air conditioning is nothing, winter in northern WI worst heat bill including water is 85 dollars for the month. @@mfb6310
Here in Denmark we often install geothermal on much smaller lots. Heating mainly. But a typical lot here in the cities is about 800m2 or 1/5 acre. We use a different layout of the heat collectors in the ground but have very good history with that. I service systems that are 20+ years old and have had nothing done to them other than yearly service.
@@CommieCat I'd assume you're right since she said that they install them on very small lots. They probably can't dig out into their neighbor's yard so they dig down instead
I did this too. Dug really deep and long tracks all over the place. I can honestly say it worked great! My neighbor was really annoyed that I dug up his yard, but hey, 'if you want to make an omlette...'
I had my horizontal bored 4Ton system installed for $15k before tax incentives. The heatpump was a used unit purchased locally from a private seller upgrading to a larger unit with only 5 years of use on it. They were upgrading as they added an addition and needed more tonnage and a larger unit made more sense rather than a secondary. The horizontal bores were installed with 5 lines of 250 foot in length making a round trip loop of 500ft per loop. A manifold was buried outside by basement so a smallish excavation was needed for that. The manifold is thermally welded to the pipes preventing any possibility of corrosion to clamps. The loops are 1 inch in size and the output of the manifold is 2 inches all of the lines are high density PEX. Part of the install I was in-charge of getting the necessary electric to the unit (not insignificant as there is an emergency aux resistive heater that can carry the needs of the home if there is a catastrophic failure of the heatpump.) The unit was transported from the old home to mine by me but removed from service, validated, and installed in my home by the same company. The antifreeze is a 15% solution of methanol. The lines were pressure tested before attaching to the unit for 24 hours. The unit is rated for 6.1 COP at 68 degrees and 18.8 EER at 86degrees. (full loads reduce those efficiencies a bit). Another point to add is the de-super-heater. This permits me to offset my water heating costs by dumping heat into a potable water buffer tank that pre-heats my well water allowing my main water heaters to work less hard. I could have higher efficiencies with a variable system rather than a 2 stage and a variable pump rather than a fixed but it made more financial sense to buy a well cared for, inspected, used unit with proper service records than it was for me to purchase a new unit with these more advanced features. At some point I might upgrade the unit but even then the costs will be far less as the lines will never need replaced and have a 100 year warranty. The expected life time from a unit like this is in the decades so a unit with only 5 years is just getting started. When I was evaluating this I too was in a predicament with the cost to install natural gas at $80k and propane costing around $1500 for half a year. I upgraded my whole house and removed the old propane fixtures installing an induction stove, a heat-pump water heater, and an on-demand electric water heater. I also had solar panels installed that cover all of my electrical needs for over half the year. I also have an electric car and electric mower so those numbers could be higher for a person who drives a gasoline car. As a point of reference I have a builders grade home built in 1985 in NE-OHIO (Zone 5) that is 2016 square foot.
Another point of geothermal is the benefit of no exterior noise, there is no external air handler that is making noise. One negative is the speed of heating is slower on a geo-thermal system as it outputs less BTU per unit of time vs a fossil fuels system. This means if you normally turn your heat way down when leaving the home the time it takes to re-condition the space will take longer. (honestly I don't notice this much and when I leave my home the heat drops to 55 and the AC goes up to 88). A positive is that there is no inherent need for air changes like a traditional fossil fuels system (like I had) that drew air for combustion from the home and exhausted it out the roof. This means it allows the home to leak less air during heating seasons as less air is drawn in though cracks to replenish the air lost though the flu. Air moves slower also on a geothermal unit meaning the ducts are quieter and less dust is spread around. There is also no risk for CO poisonings as there is no combustion occurring. This lowers my home insurance costs as there is less risk of fire. A ground source AC geothermal unit is also more efficient than and older central air - air sourced cooling unit. As said in the video the efficiencies don't vary due to the weather as the ground temperature remains constant. (loads will vary and that can effect efficiencies (what stage is running or the set temp inside the home). I was also able to sell my old central air unit and furnace for 1k offsetting that out of pocket costs. So after tax incentives and the selling of the old furnace unit my costs were only $9.5k. For that cost I have a system far more efficient, that adds value to my home, improves the air quality, and can be powered by solar. If I ignore the electrical loads and only consider the propane saved with this geothermal unit, I have a payback period of about 4 years. Obviously this ignores the increase in electrical usage from other propane conversion (offset by solar), the reduction of electrical usage in the cooling seasons, the reduction of home insurance, the improved efficiencies of the home system and air tightness, the improved health with less dust and CO/CO2 production, the noise reduction or longevity of a geothermal system vs any other system being exposed to the elements outside or dealing with flames.
I was told the rule of thumb for horizontal bores (not trench laid loops) was one 250 ft length (500 ft total) per ton of heat/cooling. They installed 5 loops to allow additional buffer. I also was told vertical wells are a bit more efficient but come at a higher cost due to the need for a well to be dug. As far as landscape goes except for the disturbed land next to my basement wall where the manifold was installed you would never know that there was any system present. This is nice if you are in a rougher neighborhood as theft of AC units happen in some neighborhoods. Previously I had a 3 ton AC unit, 4 Ton was a better fit when calculations were being preformed on the required loads of the home.
I am considering a geo thermal. I am purchasing 20 acres, however am also going to build a sunken green house on my property -about 20w x60L x 10 feet deep - 2 feet above ground glass, with a glass roof. This is in Minnesota, very cold in winter, very warm in summer along with large fluctuations during fall/spring in temps. This may be a viable option to make year round temps for the home and greenhouse. Yes, I would do most of the digging, pipe laying and unit installation myself. Very helpful video.
th-cam.com/video/UsZgCz3PQks/w-d-xo.html Check this old boys setup. Growing citrus in a place that one would think wouldn't be feasible with this kind of a setup
Thanks. nice and lucid. Just replaced my split air con (mini split) with a new model. Comes with an air heat pump which I originally did not want due to all my wood stoves. (Glad to have this alternative due to numerous electrical outages). You explained the operation and ratings well. So much to know. My condenser is on the South side of my solar house (only direct sun gain). In the summer have an old mirror in front of it to reflect the sun. Now glad to know I should let it be in the sun in the winter for potential use.
At 10 feet deep, you shouldn't need any anti-freeze at all. I live in the north-east where it can reach -30F - -40F and our water lines are typically only 6-7 feet deep and they never freeze on us. Additionally, if you're worried about it, you could put a couple feet of dirt on top of the pipes and then put down a layer of rigid styrofoam.
well, the way heat is being extracted out of the ground, I would argue that methanol is an important component to the system, if those loops EVER freeze, it's a serious headache
I too have a geo unit. One thing he never mentioned was how effective your insulation package is. It makes no sense to spend more money to efficiently add or remove heat, only to allow it to disappear through poor insulation. Poor insulation means your system works harder then it needs too, thereby reducing efficiency.
When i retired i changed my baseboard heat system to geothermal closed horizonal loop system, i have a large 2 story hobby barn with different shops in it and installed a 3 1/2 ton in my house and a 3 1/2 ton unit for my barn. I installed a 6000 foot loop bed 3 foot wide and 10 foot down, 6 1000 foot continuous runs, my 2 units can simultaneously use off of the bed, i got 30% from gov, 1500 from my co-op, 1200 from my geothermal unit manufacturer and 800 from my indiana state, i also have the prewarmer coil for my waterheater and a humidifier and air unit to help with any bacteria and virues. I am happy with my units and am doing a little here and there to make my buildings more air tight. One thing also and a pretty big carrot, i have increased the value of my house and made my house and workshop safer with no worry of Co2 and i also gave up burning wood as a suppliment to my base board heat and i am burning no fossil fuels except at the power plant to run my pool pumps and motor to run blower to deliver my heat or cold.
We also own a pretty small property in Austria and we go for a vertical borehole of about 120m depth (close to 400ft). Here many people install a „Ringgrabenkollektor“ which is essentially what you did but with a 6-7ft wide trench and in one long loop. Variable compressionrates are a thing and we expect to pay less than 400$ a year for heating, cooling and warm water...
Geothermal heating is a trend in Finland at the moment. Our geothermal well is closed loop type, overall 360m long loop (180m inside bedrock). The pump is a variable (inverter) type GebWell Aries COP 4.4. Dunno the costs since it was a part of a offer from the house building contractor, but it's around 20-30k€ and around 10% from our whole building costs.
He said something about getting a 7 or 8F temp difference between the outlet and the inlet. What good is that? What stops the ground from adjusting to the temperatures in the house? As I understand it, you use the ground precisely because the temp of the deep ground is pretty constant. This is because the ground doesn't move heat around very well (if it did, it would be the same temp as the surface). So once you have either sucked all the heat out of the soil surrounding your pipes or dumped heat from your house into that soil, how long does it take for that soil to recover back to the normal temp?
@@tarstarkusz you extract energy from the sole and the ground heats it up again as it travels through the piping. Usually you pump it through the pipes at a rate that will regain enough energy without wasting too much energy into pumping. Soil will get gradually colder over the heating season and can recover during summer. You can even load energy into the soil by passivly cooling the house.
I traveled to Innsbrook(sorry if I misspelled that) while on a trip to Germany over Christmas when I was stationed in Italy with the US Navy... It was beautiful...! We went to the cemetery where all of the famous people are buried...! I will never forget all of the amazing monuments there...! I’ve never seen anything like that since... Happy Holidays and be blessed in 2021. This was back in 1985-86
I think going deep was a smart idea. thats around the point where your're going to have a consistant temperature year round. You may want it cooler in the summer and warmer in the winter but it's about 55f-60f depending on where you are and the material you're in... a heatpump with a geothermal loop sounds like an amazingly efficient thermal producer.
Great video. I only have one small correction. Closed loop is generally more efficient than open loop if done correctly when you look at total system energy. Open loop typically uses a 1/2 hp well pump vs closed loop using 1/8 hp recirculating pump. This more than negates any small temp rise losses vs an open loop system.
Father-in-Law had a home built system that saved him a bunch - lots of land and a huge backhoe! We're going to relocate back to our roots (small farm) and will undoubtedly be putting in a system ourselves. Both of us retired Engineers, too. ;-> Great video, Garrett! Now I've got to peruse your other stash of videos!
if you were lucky enough to have enough space to bury a few thousand feet of 1½ inch PEX ... and have the proper soil conditions ... and already own an excavator ... and already own a high output reverse osmosis unit ... and do all the work yourself .... and you're a licensed electrician ... yup you can save some money. And if you already own an 8kW solar system it starts to become down right affordable.
Do note that you want to put in enough heat in the ground in the summer as you can cool down your well area. You may not notice it as it wont be apparent in one or two years, and you may suspect your pump is loosing efficiency gradually. I know a larger complex where this was an issue. The system was fine in the beggining and got more expensive than the natural gas it was replacing. Turns out the buildings were comfy without ac during the summer so they seldom used the cooling function. The issue was solved by charging the system with summer heat, without a heat pump and the heating bill was fine after that.
Please explain what you mean by charging the system with summer heat? Are you actually heating the ground during the summer with heat that will still be there months later (vs. nearby “naturally heated” soil)?
@@maranatha3333 Yes because basically, the heat you put in or take out of the soil spreads out. It needs balancing out to some degree. For instance, if you do not cool your house off in summer you are not pumping any heat into the ground. However, in winter, you are extracting heat from the ground. Meaning you are making the ground very cold. Well, that ground will stay cold for a very long time. Possibly a number of years. Ground temps around here are about 54-57 degrees Fahrenheit. If you live in an area that gets really cold and the top 24 inches of the soil freezes then you know how long it can take to thaw that out. Imagine it 7 to 9 feet down where every winter you have dropped the temperature 10 degrees. The colder it gets the less efficient it is for heating the house in winter. It would make it super efficient for cooling in summer though. This is why it needs balanced out a bit and should be used in both seasons.
Lots of good information. I had a heat pump back in the 80s. It was crap for heat, and the compressor went out after 5 years. I was told that was good service at the time. Unless they have improved greatly I would never have another. Geothermal is the way to go.
Heat pumps have indeed improved greatly since the 80's. Roughly 30-40 years of advancements. These new units can operate down to -30° and offer 90% efficiency rating to 0° F.
I used purified water in my cars coolant and intercooler system. Every few years id notice a gasket failing or pitting in the aluminum sealing surface area. Although distilled and reverse osmosis water are pure and keep scalling and contamination out of your system one thing important to monitor is PH. Purer water can become acidic and eat copper and aluminum commonly found in heat exchangers.
I just bought a place in Tennessee and I plan on putting geothermal in it. I'm in the process now of power cables and driveway and I'm going to try to do my geothermal tubing in the ground at the same time. I plan on running mine to a well house where I'll have a storage tank where it will circulate the glycol water solution and then from there out to my greenhouse out to my house and whatever other little project I've got going. Thank you very much for the update.
one thing you need to be cautious of is the real high SEER units have fine fins and some of that savings goes right back into seasonal calls for coil cleanings.
Is this a new house or one that is already built? If you're building the geo is just part of your system. There's other things that need to be done along with the geo system.
I'd love to install a geothermal system. It's truly the most efficient system least affected by variables and starts and ends with a stable temperature base. I learned so much from you (admit I had to replay it a few times, just a simple 64 yr old blue collar gal). I'd have to do the 2-well system. I moved to Iowa, into an old house on a small .03ac lot. Apparently this county has the hardest water in the state of Iowa, at 297. In researching this hard water issue, I discovered a company that has this small gadget that brackets around the water line, that not only renders the minerals to harmless states and prevents buildup, it begins eroding existing buildup! AND it implodes bacteria. (No I'm not affiliated.) I am excited at using it now as I can remove the harmful salt/sodium water softener. And I could use it on the 2-well system you described and not worry about the buildup! Its affordable, too. IF I could only afford the rest of the geothermal... lol.
I converted our large rural home to propane from electric furnace a little over a year ago. The cost to operate dropped by 60%. The cost to install was pretty close to what you ended up spending. Looking back, I should have given more consideration to a ground based heat pump.
You're at the mercy of propane prices vs electric prices. Pick your poison. I like the idea of heat not being tied to the grid for reliability. Big plus for propane. I'm considering doing my own closed loop geothermal array but am also considering doing an array of cheap used solar panels and making my own battery backup with used EV Batteries. We'll see how it goes.
I am reviewing all my saved geothermal systems and I like the info you supply with the pictures. About your two dug well systems and pump from one well and return to the other . If you dig two wells and use cement well crocks that are over 1 meter in size and install to the bottom black water pipe that are still coiled from shipping and use them for your water circulation. 1 you will not have any mineral contamination from your wells and 2 you join the two coils together close to the surface to make the 2 coils in series you will have twice the cooling capacity or better still just use ONE well for your cooling and make sure you supply a secondary water supply to insure there will always be plenty of water in your cooling well....
I have been wanting the technology to get more affordable. I have had a concept for using geothermal since i was a kid. I am getting close to actually building my dreamhouse. Thank you for this video.
Outstanding presentation - good, practical content that didn't skate over the surface or shy away from theory; it was thoughtfullly organised and edited, and fluently presented. Thank you very much. And what a joy to hear proper un-mumbled sentences entirely free of 'like' 'insane' 'awesome' and other examples of sloppy education & thinking.
n taking the time to talk to us in a way that gives us time grasp your words to not b rushed into stress. n also not boring us with other useless syllables, ah, umm, n no background "music" or other ambiant animal, people, n traffic noises camouflaging your message is refreshing. just u n i. Cudos
We are in the process of moving to MI. I don't understand why a person wouldn't install their own closed loop geothermal field. I'm getting ready to start building small ICF homes, my plan is to install a geothermal array for the house, one for the garage, and one for the sidewalk and driveway.
I'm considering GT as an option for my retirement/downsizing home on the farm. Plenty of land but wells are not a good option (water well is 420') so the closed loop is a better fit. Thank you for the info. Well presented and very educational!
You can dump waste heat into a swimming pool in the summer. And get heat in the pool for "free". And You can also use Solar water heater panels to heat a large water storage tank in the basement or outbuilding. This can be a heat source for the heat-pump. Excess solar heat gets transferred to the pool in the autumn and spring, when water is in the pool. And when there will be a lot of waste-heat due to reduced heating needs in those seasons.
Wow, outstanding job! Thanks for explaining how a heat pump works (best I have ever heard). The amount of explanation and knowledge from you helped me understand so much. Watching this video should earn you a diploma of some kind.
The reason for not digging too deep, is that you want the mass of dirt around the pipes to warm up during summer. You have to remember that the term "geothermal" is missleading. You use solar energy. The sun has to heat the ground during summer, then you extract the energy from the ground during winter. If you dig too deep, you risk to permanently cool the ground. My system, used since 2002, has the water pipe's 4 ft down into a field. Pipe is 1-1\2" plastic water pipe, about 1200 ft. It works perfectly, the incoming water/alcohol gets warmer as soon as the snow melts off in the spring. The system is very economical
You seem to be talking about a system for heating only. I'll bet you live fairly far north where air conditioning is not commonly needed. If you both heat in the winter and cool in the summer (for approximately equal periods,) you will not permanently cool the ground and the influence of the sun is unimportant. In the system described in the video, "geothermal" is not at all misleading. Our small house's geothermal system uses a single borehole that goes a hundred meters deep or more. During the winter, we suck heat out of the ground around the well; during the summer we push heat back down there. We live in Oklahoma, where the heating and cooling needs are almost perfectly balanced. The earth's heat comes from the core and mantle and any heat variances that may be created in the crust near the surface even out over time (I wonder how rapidly). The system in the video has worked well for the vast majority of U.S. residents -- from Ohio in the north to Texas in the south. I'd be interested in learning about research into any changes of efficiency over time that can be shown to be because of overheating or overcooling of the subsurface matrix near the piping. Also research into how rapidly heat conducts through rock, etc.
My folks have a geothermal heat pump in finland. I think they had to fill the lines with just about pure antifreeze, so the efficiency of that is not great. Fortunately, they have a large field next to the house, so the losses in fluid are covered by the pure distance of pipe running underground. Its a hell of a system.
Thank you, looking at Bosch heat pumps now. I'm also a non-qualified (non-ticketed) builder planning to build a unique home and considering using underground cisterns as a switched heat source/sink for a seasonal boost in efficiency. Lots to learn. Thank you for this information.
Great info. Have almost 5 acres, but I also live in New England so rocks are our major problem. I’m guessing the two well system would work better, but the plus side is the water table is only about 8 feet down. The downside is our water is hard as well, but mostly iron.
You can build a still an distill the water your self I'd have a preference in type of pipe sounds like you did good like it . My zone ground temp 65°F below 24" yes I'd use geo thermal .
You can easily distill your own water with a dehumifier(s). If you start collecting as you plan and construct, the timing might work out. Awesome video!!!
Congratulations! You explained all phases correctly and your logic is shared with the right vernacular. Nothing was a waste of time and effort and we are informed as a result. This is rare for most people who tend to get off on tangents and wonder in an unnecessary dialog. Thank you!
In 1990, we were the contractors for our new home. We chose geothermal. It was an excellent system. 2 acres provided plenty space for a closed loop system. One winter our neighbors had monthly heating bills of $1,000 to $3,000; our bill was $225. My sister put her geo system in 1987, her system is still working well for her. Our biggest problem back then was finding contractors to work on and maintain the system. If I was to do it again I would strongly consider a passive system approach. If a 5,000 sqft home can be heated with a hair dryer and air exchanger in the morning, I’m in. An the a/c is similar deal. Yes there is upfront cost but not as much as a geo. System.
@@TJHutchExotics You can rent the proper equipment, which should not cost all that much. Electricity follows the laws of physics, which everyone should have learned at school, which is payed for by taxes and the proper safety measures to follow to do electrical work safely and correct are available from the governing bodies of that field for free on the internet, common sense can help improve safety further.
@@TJHutchExotics I learned electrical all on my own. It started early though, when we were kids, we would unscrew the Christmas lights on the tree and see who could hold their finger in the socket the longest.
at some point in the future , definitely. I was aware of some of what you said, but I was not aware of not needing a heating and cooling person. Thanks I enjoyed all your Geothermal videos.
I think this makes sense in almost any climate but especially new builds in cold climates (along with going above code for insulation and air sealing).
About to change from a biomass boiler and have the land with the house which is clay subsoil. GSHP is a project I realise I can do myself after watching your own project experience. Thanks
I use geothermal heating/cooling. The ground temperature year round at 10 feet is 67 degrees. When it's -20ºF outside in the winter 67ºF is heat. When it's 110ºF in the summer 67ºF is cooling. It all runs through the same underground system and is closed loop. I used 1 in pex with 2 runs of 1000 feet and it works great. The biggest issue is friction loss for the pump so make sure that to get the proper GPM with minimal friction loss which will allow for a smaller pump and longer pump life. At 3gpm with 1 inch pex the loss at 1000 feet is only 7psi. With 3/4 inch pex it's 23psi. The difference is that a 70 watt pump can be used with the 1 inch pex but a 150 watt pump needs to be used for the 3/4 in pex to get the same GPM. Plus the higher pressure means shorter life for the pump.
We had an open dump system with a two compressor system and Never had an issue. In Mi in sand. 18 years and sold the house in a heartbeat. looked into closed loop and well drop loop. Open dump was the way to go. No dual well just one for feed and dumped into the sand. Love geo thermal.
Sand is porous. That means it is not good for closed loop as the gaps act as insulators. It also means that the open loop systems naturally work better than in other dirt. So you were wise or lucky to chose open loop
Looked at buying a house that was open loop. Dumped into a pond it back. It scared me because I didn't know much about GT and I thought it was drawing water from there. I was like no way! 😆. I didn't but the house for a lot of other reasons anyway.
Very cool. I'd like to do a closed loop geothermal on a new ICF house build and setup closed loop in floor heat as well as loops for a heated sidewalk/patio and driveway.
In Sweden it's prohibited to pump water up from the ground and then pump it back again. The reason for it is the risk of groundwater pollution. Instead, we use tubes with liquid going down in the ground, picking up the energy, and circulating back to the heat pump. It's what you call a close loop. We also use deep boreholes reaching the deep groundwater resources, 350 ft or more, instead of digging on the surface. This enables even small lots of land to use geothermal energy.
i am in Canada and I am definitely considering putting one for the NetZero house that i planning to build in 2 years. I am already on the look out for ides. Thx. for the video.
I'm in Australia, no snow, but frost to -5 degrees C. Up to 45 max summer. I just put in lots of solar PV. Then run a standard heat pump air-conditioning system. I have no power costs at all. All electric home. Geo looks good, but not cost effective for me. Canada, yes I'm sure.
Well done. You should also factor in the life of the equipment. Any unit which is outside the house such as a conventional HVAC system is quickly damaged by the external environment and its life is greatly reduced. Typical geothermal systems last 25-30 years. If you have to replace a conventional HVAC system entirely in a 30 year period, your cost is over double (inflation) as well as the cost to run the unit which is also much higher every year.
Nice video , thanks. For any tradesman, HVAC folks or Garrett, maybe your thoughts on this. In the northeast oil burner hydronic baseboard is common. these systems circulate plain water through pex and copper pipes in baseboard all over the house. My home presently has 3 circulators. I know from my original home, with 3 furnaces over 70 years, these baseboard water circulation systems last decades. make up water is put into the loops occassionally. Hard water is very common. My family home had such terrible water but a water softener helped a lot, and the oil burner guys installed a cartridge, I think it might be a potassium permagenate, or some type of additive. there's no distilled water or antifreeze, these systems are circulating about 100 gallons of water 24/7 ,year in and year out. I have had to replace circulators very rarely, like once every 10 to 15 years. i am nervous about distilled water because it is basically ionically active, it tends to eat into metal. maybe the antifreeze helps. but if the water is at 50/60 degrees, and it drops 8 degrees after geo exchange, it's still far from freezing. compared to hydronic baseboard systems, I wonder just how much antifreeze is needed? a 50/50 antifreeze mixture has 35% lower heat capacity, and 35% lower heat conductivity. Trying to sort all this out.........
When I replaced the A/C unit last spring, I asked the gentleman who installed it for me about the heat pump system and he honestly told me that he has one and that it cost him more to use because it has to run all of the time. I'm very happy that he was honest with me.
It sounds like the guy who installed your HVAC doesn't understand that his own system isn't working properly - once the valves are in summer position there is zero difference between a heat pump and an air conditioner, and a guy in the biz would have to have his head pretty far up his rectum to not get that 'my AC has to run all day' is a service call. People do be dumb like that. Quite possible his compressor just needs to be hosed out.
I am going to simply dig a shallow well to pump enough water to circulate in pex pipes under the floor to cool in summer and warm in winter since water will be at 25C(77F). The discharge will go into an existing irrigation tank. An open loop system at a tenth of your price.
Thank you all for watching my video. Make sure to check out a couple of my other Geothermal videos:
Geothermal Cost Breakdown: th-cam.com/video/mjWsSmjAOeU/w-d-xo.html
Geothermal 4 year review: th-cam.com/video/xc_BbbMi1cg/w-d-xo.html
Can a “burn barrel” for our trash be implemented into this kind of system? Really I’m just tired of forgetting to set the herby out on the Curb. But if the trash could be repurposed and utilized for heating, that would be cool
Kinda like a trash compactor-furnace?
@@KEW-pd1jn I don't think so, but who knows
@@Challenged1 cool thanks.
Which is a better set up. One giant loop or multiple loops and a manifold setup? Just planning my system.
Wow! I'm a commercial building engineer and this is the best explanation I have seen of a residential use break down of a heat pump and geothermal systems. No youtube hype filler. Thank you for a great video!
Thank you for the kind words!!!
A refreshingly clear BS free description of heat pump heating cooling.
Still don't know where the heat is coming from.
Awesome free info. Thanks
@@Martin_HermannYour fridge is a heat pump. If you feel the air coming out of the vent (usually bottom front) it is warm air. That air was heated by pumping heat out of your fridge (via coils and a compressor). Pumping heat out of the fridge keeps it cold.
Residential geothermal is the same idea, but the inside of the fridge is replaced by the ground.
I work for a Geothermal exclusive company in the NW Chicago area. We do the entire job start to finish. Vertical boring is what you do in a city...it is possible in most areas. 150ft/ton straight down. We bore 5" holes drop the pipe, grout with bentonite/graphite mix. Also we use methanol as an antifreeze and have protection to 15°F. Not possible on every city job. But many more than most people think. I am one of very few Geothermal service techs in the area as well. I cant lie. Self installed Geo systems scare me. I have seen some nightmare jobs. That being said. This is a VERY GOOD VIDEO. Informative and correct in all aspects. Great job on this sir!
Great info, thanks!!!
If you don't mind sharing, what would you guys charge for a typical 4 ton system with the vertical boring all in?
Your estimates were about spot on. 4 tons would cost between 40-50k depending on geological make up. That's for a full job start to finish.
@@jeremymacklem2510 Thank you.
@carguy Thank you!!!
I was digging a 14 deep 3/4 acre lake /pond on my property so I simply laid my collection system in the bottom of the pond which luckily was blue clay hardpan and then covered it with 4 inches of sand backfill . My unit was a 4 ton and my home was 2300 sq ft with 10 ft ceilings and 18 ft in my large living room . My electrical bill for the year was 825 dollars total for heat and air conditioning . Excellent
Thank you for sharing
Get some solar and its free forever!
@@KznnyL Solar what? photovoltaics? They might last 20 to 25 years. They are environmental disasters because of the rare earth metals used, there destroy our planet worse than oil or coal. The FIRST system in every house should be SOLAR HOT WATER (and solar sub-floor heating). The second system might be best as geothermal cooling. The pumps for solar hot water and for geothermal can be photovoltaic as that might make sense, but photovoltaic in general is an environmental crime.
@@KznnyLconsistency is the key.
Nice !
My parents did that way in 1979. Heating pump is still working now !
Did they never had any problems? What kind of expansion valve does it have?
wow! would u share the build?
@@KarlAlfredRoemer I don't know. All valves are built in the heating pump unit. Only 2 ports are used to cycle water in ground heat exchanger. The only problem occured in 2009, had to change a fuse after a lightning strike.
Expansion valve , can you share the build ?
You guys are way over thinking this ,
It's simple , I'm doing the exact same thing except I'm using a small pump ,
It pumps water from a 22 foot deep and 4 foot diameter water Well , the water comes up around 55° degrees , goes through a simple car radiator and runs back into the well ,
I use an everyday square box fan like you can buy a store to blow the 55° degree temperature out in the summer and it cools , but in winter and it's 32° and freezing , I'm still blowing 55° degree heat out ,
I have a Wood Burner for heat , so I don't really use it as much as I do in the summer
At this point it would probably be worth the money to replace the heatpump... Better efficiency among other things
Thank you for your video on geothermal heat/air. I built my home about 15 years ago and installed two 3 ton heat pumps. I have been considering updating them to geothermal to get more efficiency and because I have a five acre pond 250 foot from my home that I could use in a closed loop system. The pond stays at a consistent depth because of some springs that feed it. I also have a backhoe to dig a trench from the house to the pond. Being retired and 76 years old I have not been as inclined to do this as I would have 15 years ago! But you have inspired me.
I wish you luck. Sounds like a great plan to me
water loop is the best for heat transfer actually 👍
@@josoffat7649 I believe these are the ones using water/methanol**. It’s an anti freeze but carries a lot of heat per unit of flow.
In hard water areas use rainwater with a corrosion inhibitor.
Had a geothermal unit added at my home in the 1990's. I forgot to have it checked for 20 years, called my installer and he said if I was having no problem leave it alone so I have. Love this thig, figure I save $100. per month on electric bill from my old heat pump.
I'm recommending this to my airport manager as he is thinking of developing some new hangers/building at our municipal airport. He loves DIY and this could spark some new ideas since we have a lot of land to work with. -Thank you!
Any updates?
Thanks for that Video
I can add some points that you didn't mention.
1) you forgot to mention that not only the cold side of the heat pump makes a difference in cop but also the hot side. At first I would optimize at the inside. You showed pictures of ducts inside the house. I assume your heat pump creates warm air that is going to be distributed across your building. As you mentioned water is more eglibe for transfering heat, i would suggest to use that instead of air. normally at my home country you would run coils in the floor of your building, warming that. That way the heat pump only has to heat up the water to 95°F in winter time to keep your home warm. The pump that delivers the heat to the whole building eats up only about 10 - 30 Watts, what is sure less than a fan needs. Additionally in the rooms you won't have noise and air movement.
1b) We here also do some ducts but we run them only to exchange the used air against fresh air from outside so you need to open the windows less for air quality. This air is brought inside the building by a heat recovery exchanger to lessen the heat loss.
2) to decide if a ground heat source or outside air source is better it is important to knwo where you're at, how many hours per year it is going to be how cold. If you know that you can do the math and then decide the annual more - or less energy you need for either system
3) you also want to have your ground analysed to know if it is better or worse suitable for the geothermal system you describe before making descisions
4) There is no xxx feet of pipe is needed per ton. this is absolutely dependent on the kind of ground and the operating hours per year, and if you plan to use antifreeze in the system. There are people around who have software to simulate this.
5) Antifreeze: Normally you want to use 0% or 20 - 33% of antifreeze, if you use glycol. the glycol we get here contains anticorrosive elements. Therefore you better inform yourself and fill in the mixture that is mandated by the manufacturer. If you design your coil for usage with plain water and get into trouble you can always later change to antifreeze filling. Be aware that you will never design your coil to be sub zero celsius (freezing point of water), or you'll suffer of performance of your ground coil, or even destroy it as time goes by if you repeatingly freeze the ground around it.
6) If you need to cool the house in summer you can use the water of about soil temperature and send it to your pipes in the floor. that way you don't need any energy (apart from the two pumps) to cool down your house. If you are at a warmer region and that is not enough you can reverse your heat pump or have a air handler that is connected to the outside coil
7) if your garden is to small then use vertical drilled holes. they need to be quite long and this is nothing for DIY, as it requires special skills. the length and the amount of those borings need to be simulated, to ensure that you will be able to use them for the desired life span. in several hundred feet depth the heat is not really easy moved and if your vertical collector is to small you risk of cooling it down to an unusable temperature in 5 or 10 years.
by the way: if you connect your AC to it and heat your heat source up in summer time it helps a lot, so you need smaller borings and get an almost infinite life span out of it.
8) water quality: I'm pleased somebody speaks about the water that is going to be filled in a circuit. yes, you can use destilled water, that's great. At my place we have special water softener resin cartridge that take out all of the salt (not to mistake for ion exchanger resin that can be regenerated with salt), what gives almost the same quality of water as destilled water. Advantage: you don't have to carry the water around but have a small cartridge you connect to your tap water. Cheaper? maybe not, depends.
9) about the layout of your trench: it is not always best to dig as low as possibe. The design of your collector needs to make as much as possible use of the ground between the collectors. If you speak a little bit of german or know how to use the translator then you can find tons of useful informations and another angle of sight how we're doing such things in europe. Assumed you understand metric units maybe you will find it interesting to read on some forums and company websites. try following words in google: grabenkollektor, ringgrabenkollektor, trenchplanner.
They can go deep with a closed loop system, if you have limited space. Instead of drilling two wells for an open loop, you drill one hole and place the heat sink loop in the hole. It may not be as efficient as placing that loop at one specific depth, but it's still way more efficient than air to air heat exchanges.
Important to note that when using distilled water or reverse osmosis water (RO), you have to be careful about what fittings and piping are used and where. Polypropylene, Polyethylene and 316L SS are preferred for high purity waters. You can use PVC and CPVC, but they are more prone to failure long term. This particularly true when using glycols for freeze protection.
Excellent points!!!
Thats a joke. Very pure water is less corrosive than water with impurities in it. 316 is needed for sea water though.
@@Challenged1 No, bad points. Very pure water has a resistance of something like 18.2 Meg ohms. In order for corrosion to occur, there needs to be an anode and a cathode, and some impurities in the water for the ion exchange to occur. For example, try electrolysis on some lab grade ultra pure distilled water at a low voltage. It won't work because the water is a very good insulator. Add a little baking soda to it however, and suddenly you'll get good production of Brown's gas (2:1 hydrogen to oxygen ratio).
I would suggest just using filtered tap water as long it is of decent quality. The mineral content in a closed loop is fixed at the first fill, and as long as it doesn't require regular topping off, the limited mineral content is not enough to cause any problems down the road.
@@brnmcc01couldn't you use a sacrificial anode?
Hey quick comment. In my experience, I've used 50/50 for non automotive use. As an automotive professional, I know that antifreeze/coolant also has lubricants, anti corrosion, anti organic life, on top of other additives. Diluting antifreeze may cause premature impeller and bearing wear, loss of anticorrosive properties, and affect the PH level allowing organic life to grow. Mind you this takes a really long time.
Even though you may not need "antifreeze", I do recommend something like freezetone that offers such additives to continue protecting your system with superior conductive properties.
in some places it is not legal to allow anti freeze to be used in a circuit that is not independent of the well altogether. Actually that should not be legal. this would mean two exchangers mot likely.
@@djea3589 you're absolutely right. A leak from this system would be a spill hazard.
We installed a closed loop geothermal five years ago in a single 450’ well. It supplies all our heating, air conditioning, and hot water. We did not hook up the backup hvac heat strips nor the backup hot water elements. No problems, and we have only had annual preventative maintenance services. We elected to do the single well rather than the ditches all over our yard. Our power bills have been low all year and we have been well pleased with the system.
Looking into Geothermal options now and received a quote from Dandelion for 44k. Are there any other options in the northeast?
We are building a new home on land and only option is propane. Builder is recommending a heat pump but trying to find a better/cheaper way to heat and cool my home. Any tips?
@@JohnSmith-fi2gu Geo is the way to go. Just put a new one in January it is a Water furnace brand probably one of the top of the line you can get. Old one was 27 years old when it stopped working. Other then servicing it yearly nothing was every replace on it. Acid flushed it every 2 to 3 years. Was looking at option and talk to my electric supplier and they said spend the money on the Geo bills will be lower. the install was $17 k for 3ton unit we have a open loop system water well and then drain tile. You can do vertical wells and a closed loop system or the ground system. The hot water is not really something you will get much benefits from because of how it is done the installer said and my location as well.
@@SUPERCARSOFWESTCHESTER I know this is late but Water furnace
@@JohnSmith-fi2gu also there is a 26% tax credit till end of your one GEO system
We have had geo thermal now for 5 years. Best hvac system for comfort and low electric bills year round. Can freeze out the house in august and not worry about the bill.
Our property has one too, but we disconnected it a couple years after moving in. It was set up badly by the previous owner. It was done professionally, but not well. They used two deep rock wells. One to pull the water out of, and service the water needs of our property, and the other well to dump the water back into. The problem we had was the pump drawing the water out of the main well, was always breaking down, and had to be serviced several times a year. I think a ground loop is the way to go, but we never got around to having one installed.
@@dkeith45 Ground loop is much better.
@@LoanwordEggcorn Is ground loop the same as the closed loop as mentioned in the video?
@@mathewmiletich5986 Yes.
@@dkeith45 sounds like the glass is half full, call a pro and fix the issues with better equipment/design using the existing wells
I’m in school as an HVAC Tech, and my school had us working with a geothermal setup. Ever since then I’ve been fascinated. I’m glad I found your channel, I’m looking forward to viewing more of your content
th-cam.com/video/7J52mDjZzto/w-d-xo.html
@@Luckmorne th-cam.com/video/MUWjjjFgXdg/w-d-xo.html
I have a geo system in a suburban neighborhood with a 0.4 acre lot. It runs a closed, 460’ deep single loop. Been running flawlessly for 5 years. Only issue I had was my neighbors thought I was insane when the 30-ton drill rig showed up at my house!
It'd be the talk of the town in my tiny neighborhood!! Just moving here created a stir!
Wow. 460ft is crazy deep. What temps are you getting in your loop? I imagine it would be a lot warmer than say 20ft deep loop
Either going to get a go loop installed or strike oil and be rich
@@koreancontent1945 460’ line than was very deep.
That is crazy deep. Mine was 6 loops 67 feet deep in my wooded side lot. Neighbors were all like wtf seeing the drilling rig.working. in my side lot. $15,000 for the drilling in the late 90's. In heating mode the system ran at 1/3 the cost of the electric baseboards it replaced.
You can do something very similar on a boat in some areas. The water around the boat is typically cooler than the air in summer and warmer than the air in winter. If you can utilize this difference you are that much more efficient. Marine heat pumps have been around for years and my particular favorite is the MarineAir 16,000 btu 120 volt model. There are things you must do however. There must be an hull strainer and an in line raw water strainer before the water pump. The strainer and pump must be below the water level that’s outside of the hull. There must be a flow switch (not provided) to shut things down if there’s an obstruction. Loss of flow can be more catastrophic in winter because slow flowing water can freeze the water in the heat exchanger, rupture and flood the hull. Moisture alarms throughout a boat is always a good idea. A condensate pump to move water overboard is also required. It’s also preferable to have the heat pump unit above water level so when it cycles off some water runs backwards through the impeller pump and the two strainers help with backwashing and keeping things clear.
I have no intention of doing this and yet I couldn't stop watching this video. Very interesting.
Thank you for your support
100%
But I'm a hvac tech.
Same. Too small of yard for myself. Oh well super cool for people who can
You and me both. The 'to the point' presentation c/w the videography, had me watching with great interest.
Great explanation of heat pump technology! I put one in my house 18 years ago and cut my electric bill by about 60 plus percent and summer time hot water for free. Used my old hot water heater as tank and a new in demand hot water heater. I am absolutely thrilled with the technology! Regards
Could you explain that a little more? You're system sounds like something I want to do
You need to change out that "on demand" for a solar water heater!
My father's cousin installed a well type geothermal system in her yoga center in the late 1980's. I have had dreams of building a system exactly as you describe for several years now. Since I would build this into my existing hydronic heating system, my main investments would be in a water to water geothermal unit and a some small fan-coils with condensate drains to be used for hydronic cooling on a separate loop. I have a backhoe attachment for my tractor, keeping the trenching investment down to diesel and time like in your case. Thank you for the guidance on tax incentives - I was considering looking into that aspect and you gave me some good places to start. Nice work on your build and I am happy to see that you have had such a positive result!
Thanks!!! I wish you luck with your system!
Once I saw a system that uses solar vacuum tubes in which the sun heats the water inside and the water doesn't lose temperature to the environment because of the vacuum walls. It works even in forecast days and can boil water even in snow, that was pretty clever too!
Sounds expensive
Sounds interesting!
Great video very informative. That being said I work for a company that treats these types of systems and there are a few things to keep in mind. Yes water is better at transferring heat but if you go below 18% glycol you will have sever bacterial growth in the system. This can rob it of efficiency while also causing maintenance issues. I wouldn't go below 30% with a glycol mix. Also if you are using a gycol mix it is extremely important that the water you mix it with is pure water whether that be distilled, DI or RO because regular water will form precipitates that can reek havoc on the system like the bacteria. I like the comment below me on using methanol although going with just water and keeping it moving would work too.
How about running the water lines through UVC?
I built 12 years ago. Three zones with 6T of cooling. Four trenches 12 feet deep with 9,000 ft of 1" HDPE tube. Great system and very efficient. 29SEER Florida H.P. now Bosch.
I installed 2 geothermal heat pumps when I had my house built back in 2001. Had engineers design the system for a 2.5 ton for one area of the house and 3 ton for larger area.
Used 300’ per ton as length of tubing. So ended up with 2 loops 6-8’ deep one goes out with pipe in bottom of trench leak tested and back filled with 2’ over that pipe, top pipe is 6’ deep for a total for 2.5 ton is 1000’
3 ton unit has 1 continuous loop of 1000’ 8-10th deep.
System was designed without additional electric heat for a backup. In 21 years have not needed it either, even at 10pm outside.
Very happy with this system. Did not use anything but water with make up valve and expansion tank, no glycol at all.
Pipes are in the attic which I run 2 pumps in winter 24/7 to prevent them from freezing, summer they run with compressors.
Did all the work myself except for the digging, hired that for $1,000.00, and I tested for leaks and back filled myself.
Would do it again except would use antifreeze with a back flow preventer.
House has 6’’ walls and very efficient. Heat pumps are Trane.
Thank you for sharing
You're amazing
We had GT done here in northern west Michigan of course it’s all sand they went at least 15 feet down on a closed loop works great we have filled our propane tank once in 4 years and we use most of propane in the fire place, we received two years of tax breaks and money from the electric cooperative, one of the best investment’s ever we also run on solar and have batteries.
We're same boat. No natural gas, 100% electric. Trying to move our house off-grid for power and heating and cooling are the biggest obstacles. We have plenty of land and I'd love to try. We just replaced the downstairs unit and the HVAC guy talked us out of GT. My guess, even though they list it as a service, they probably don't like to do them. I like the idea of doing it myself. Another excuse to rent machinery!
Any excuse to run machinery is a good excuse.
I wonder what power usage would be on off grid solar power system with batteries? Would it work?
@@johnwillard6749 that's what we'd like it for. We installed grid-tied solar 2 years ago with the plan of going off-grid when storage becomes more affordable.
I have a house in Maine off grid with large solar system. Just would not want to have to run generator
less headaches likely to just add a larger ground mounted solar array than go digging and dealing with all that to save a fraction of the easier route
here in sweden we do a lot of geothermal. the area required is about a few square meters as we use a borehole of about 120 meter depth (closed loop). the whole process is highly automated and a heat well is done in about a days work, start to finish. the heat pumps used have a cop value of about 5. in summer time they can dump heat from thebhouse down the well. abd thebwhole installation can be done on the parking lot.
How's the cost side?
Can you send a link to suitable websites and / or tutorials please? Thank you
@@asdasdasdasdasd9795 installation costs are pretty standard the heatpumps is about 7000 dollars, and the installation about as much (done by proffesionals in about 1-2 days) so in total about 14k dollars (at current conversion rate). in running cost it takes aproximately 20 kwh per 24/h period to heat a normal hose (including hot water) in the winter time. so yeah whatever your electricity cost. normal lifespan is about 25 years on the pump.
@@simonharris3709 as stated, i am swedish and most links and tutorials are swedish/nordic. but sure i can add some web sites if your interested.
@@johndoe1909 I’d be very interested in some good links if you have some! Chrome translates sites pretty well. Or even just the correct terms to search on in Swedish. Air source heat pumps for hot water are rare here in Australia and ground source even rarer. Would be super interesting to see how Sweden arranges it.
I spent over 30 years in HVAC. I think this is the most ACCURATE and informative TH-cam video I've seen yet. Great job!
Thank you for this comment!!!
This was popular back in the 70's where I live . However, were out in the middle of nowhere Tennessee. We also do something like this , but use compost piles instead. Our compost piles are 20 feet wide by 100+ feet long and about 10 feet tall. The water gets up to 150 degrees. I have one heating my shop right now.
thats actually really interesting! but in that case arent you only taking care of heating for cold weather? that doesnt sound like a solution for cooling in hot weather as useful as it sounds for heating
Sounds like a great idea! Thanks
I'm a fellow Tennessean and I love the idea. I'm wanting to convert to being more self sufficient. Gardens animals and doing stuff like this. Can you give me some advice?
@@endlessdesert3122 Google: Jean Pain mound
This was my first exposure to seeing how a geothermal system actually looks. I am very interested in this technology and have not bought land yet, so I really appreciate your tips about a large piece of land and building in clay soil.
You can do closed loop system in small areas too. Drilling isn’t exclusive to open loop. You can put pipe down frillier boreholes and fuse it all in a header system in ground or in house. Very popular way to do it. Just remember to grout your boreholes for best conductive with the earth.
Correct, it's just not DIY
I installed a Fujitsu 12RL mini split heat . pump several years ago and am totally glad I did. 1 unit, centrally located in my 1900 sq ft ranch. I live in Maine and have wood as a back up. The unit produced useful heat at -15 F one winter - it is only rated to -10F by the manufacturer, I was told that is as cold as the testing equipment got. I usually burned 6-7 cords of wood a year, the installer said I would only need1/2 cord a year to supplement the few extreme cold days. I could hardly believe him but he was right on the money. I burned 1/2 cord a year for several years, and last year burned no wood at all. Essentially, a good heat pump is roughly cheaper than any heat source but wood, and about the same as wood but without the labor and mess of wood, which is considerable. I got the heat pump because I was getting older and the wood was not getting easier. I am totally happy with the result. The coldest part of the year I would burn 1 cord a month, at $200/cord. The heat pump costs, during the coldest months, about $150/month extra on my power bill. Yes, in my case it has been cheaper than wood since with wood I heated my basement also, and liked to keep the woodstove cranked right up to keep the chimney clean and heat both floors.With the heatpump, the basement is cool but not too cool.
In the summer, the heat pump is way more efficient than my air conditioner was. During the hottest part of the year, the AC added $80/month to my power bill. The heat pump is much better at cooling than the AC was, and much cheaper to operate as an AC too. A mini split has no inefficient ductwork to heat or cool, and loses no electricity pumping through ducts (my understanding is ductwork can sap up to 10% additional electricity). There is a dehumidifier setting that costs about $15/ month to use continuously in the hot part of the year, and I find that when used, which is all the time in the summer in my case, the AC setting rarely is needed. When the AC setting is used, there is not much impact on my power bill, so it is clearly getting a much greater cooling bang for the buck than my old AC did.
I'm totally happy with my switch to a cold climate heat pump. It paid for itself in 3 years when compared to my old oil furnace, so it will be well worth it even planning on replacing it every 12-15 years or so. The woodstove is excellent backup for power outages, which can be quite long where I live, in fact there was a three day outage this past month, and as a supplement for extended extreme cold, which has not been happening in recent years.
The correct heat pump is the obvious best choice for most homes now, imo. Electricity costs are much stable than heating oil in the long term. You can make your own electricity too, with solar panels. A grid tied solar power system with a mini split or geothermal heat pump is the sweetest arrangement of all, also imo.
Thanks for sharing and totally agree
Yeah, thanks for sharing! Mini-splits are the way to go. Can't believe that HVAC professionals still install duct systems.
Can I ask something? Why don't you get a few solar panels? At least in summer time, they produce electric power for your A/C when you need it (during the day).
@@leonlowenstadter9223 I have 26 panels but have not had $ for installation due to health issues - in fact I may sell the panels which is rather heart breaking.
You're wrong about people in the city having only one option, the open loop, because there are vertical closed loop systems also.
You can combine closed systems with standard submerged water tanks, especially if they are made from galvanised steel, which conducts heat to the surrounding earth well.
Not for geothermal you can't
Worked at a Wastewater treatment facility, learned of buried tanks that leaking, were pulled out to learn why and where, and realized they were destroyed by thousands of tiny pinhole leaks caused by microbes in the ground. Maybe location matters. Apparently there are millions of yet unknown undiscovered microbes tearing up ocean liners too.
I put a Geothermal system a few years ago myself. The I add the solar and now have a net zero house. I did it all as experiment on build a new ICF house. I have 4 ton variable speed fan and heat pump system for Geothermal. Both are drive by dc motors. My cost was 14k with one 3-day weekend rental of backhoe and horizontal loops down 12ft. I have five 600 ft loops 12 ft apart. New house will have Geothermal but will go to radiant though out the house. I am down in southern CA.
Nice work!
Mark-Happy Thahnksgiving could you drop me a line? I have some questions about what you did. Doing an ICF as you describe on East coast.jksafe1994@gmail.com Thanks.
I am in SoCal too, looking into ICF can you let me know which supplier/builder you used for the ICF?
I’ve loved/wanted a gt system for years, but never felt I could afford it due to front end costs. I live in Big Bear, SoCal n would do it now but have had trouble finding someone who has had experience with gt.
Any info/referral would be greatly appreciated.
BTW One of the big SoCal universities did a study n figured if LA went geothermal They could save 40% of current electricity demand (everyone runs ac most of the year.) That makes green energy much easier to implement n reduces heat n hydrocarbons in the air.
Let’s do it!
A little over a decade ago, while living in PA, I had to replace our furnace and AC. I chose to go geothermal. The installer put in a vertical closed loop system with two wells to take advantage of the heat transfer properties of the water. My old furnace was propane fired and was really expensive to operate (over $600/mo in the cold season). After all the tax credits, the geothermal system ended up being $8500 more than a high end hybrid propane/heat pump system. This included installation of an 80 gallon hot water heater and 55 gallon buffer tank. I had estimated a return on investment of just over 3 years. It ends up, the gt heat pump was so efficient, I got my money back in just over 2 years. Winter heating costs dropped to less than $55/mo. Summer cooling dropped by more than $100, and I also got free hot water in the summer due to the buffer tank. And, because the system ran more frequently than my old one, it was way more comfortable. I really miss that system.
Thank you for sharing!
Thank you for your effort to inform people
@@Challenged1 , I think Kelly's question is for you. My system was professionally installed, so I don't have a full material list. The unit was a Waterfurnace Envision. I don't remember the brand of the hot water heater, buffer tank or desuperheater. Total cost before tax credits was a little under $27,000. There was a 30% federal tax credit as well as a smaller PA tax credit at the time. I still have the project proposal and my calculations on savings prior to moving, as well as annual maintenance invoices.
@Kelly Kay I have other videos that may have what you are looking for.
As a point of reference, a book I own about Earth Covered Houses, stated that the minimum amount of earth coverage required to decouple a house from the surrounding air was one metre (or yard), so going down to two or three metres would be more than enough earth coverage for the piping system. The only other thing to consider is that the deeper that you dig your trench the wider it needs to be battered back to prevent collapse during installation.
That book is not very exact. Depth is dependent upon annual frost depth which in the USA in some places is over 3 feet. Certainly there are studies in different arias that give fairly exacting temperature by depth. What you are seeking is a constant temperature zone or two zones, one for cooling and one for heating.
A below surface house becomes decoupled because the floor and lower walls are ~10ft below the surface.
I've had a water furnace for 14 years now and it has performed as it should 4 years ago I added solar so now heat is free as far as monthly payments are concerned. I did the pump and dump and it has worked well.
Thanks for sharing
Please explain “pump and dump”? What is that? Thank you
@@paulbaker3144 I use ground source water, pump it up to the furnace extract 3 degrees of heat and then return the water to the water table
Thanks for showing the unit and not just talking the whole time. It really helps to understand it.
Glad to help
I was shopping for a furnace once long ago and a normal natural gas furnace is $7000. So spending $17k on a geothermal unit is actually pretty fantastic. Especially that you don't have to spend the money on natural gas hookup or the monthly gas bill.
So I’m most places it would be cheaper to hear with natural gas then geothermal. The cooling component is cheaper then an ac unit but for heating natural gas is cheaper even though it is more efficient but the gas is simply cheaper to heat with.
@@sd8c With modern air-source heat pumps, in most places in the USA, burning one cubic meter of natural gas in a high efficiency furnace produces LESS heat than burning the same amount of gas at a power plant to produce electricity, sending that electricity to the house through the grid, and using that electricity to run the heat pump. Ground-source heat pumps do this even better.
@@sd8c Not that much anymore. I thought the same as you until I did a comparison just yesterday. Nat gas in April 2023 - $13.65, June - $17.29. Electric in June $18.03 kwh in my county. It's $13.53 in other counties that have their own electrical power facilities. Being made unaffordable.
@@sd8c, until the Democrats apply a pollution tax to it or ban it. They are screwing everything up.
There are also programs you can get using Geo through the electrical companies, I get 50 percent off of the electrical cost to run geo year round. Plus I run solar and summer cost for air conditioning is nothing, winter in northern WI worst heat bill including water is 85 dollars for the month.
@@mfb6310
Here in Denmark we often install geothermal on much smaller lots. Heating mainly. But a typical lot here in the cities is about 800m2 or 1/5 acre.
We use a different layout of the heat collectors in the ground but have very good history with that.
I service systems that are 20+ years old and have had nothing done to them other than yearly service.
Excellent!!! Thanks for sharing
What is the difference in the heat collector laid out?
@@mikemorris5730 probably a deep hole instead of a horizontal trench
@@CommieCat I'd assume you're right since she said that they install them on very small lots. They probably can't dig out into their neighbor's yard so they dig down instead
Are any of these geothermal systems in Denmark used for hydronic radiant floor heat? What brand are the systems that are 20 years old? Thanks
I did this too. Dug really deep and long tracks all over the place. I can honestly say it worked great!
My neighbor was really annoyed that I dug up his yard, but hey, 'if you want to make an omlette...'
I had my horizontal bored 4Ton system installed for $15k before tax incentives. The heatpump was a used unit purchased locally from a private seller upgrading to a larger unit with only 5 years of use on it. They were upgrading as they added an addition and needed more tonnage and a larger unit made more sense rather than a secondary. The horizontal bores were installed with 5 lines of 250 foot in length making a round trip loop of 500ft per loop. A manifold was buried outside by basement so a smallish excavation was needed for that. The manifold is thermally welded to the pipes preventing any possibility of corrosion to clamps. The loops are 1 inch in size and the output of the manifold is 2 inches all of the lines are high density PEX. Part of the install I was in-charge of getting the necessary electric to the unit (not insignificant as there is an emergency aux resistive heater that can carry the needs of the home if there is a catastrophic failure of the heatpump.) The unit was transported from the old home to mine by me but removed from service, validated, and installed in my home by the same company. The antifreeze is a 15% solution of methanol. The lines were pressure tested before attaching to the unit for 24 hours. The unit is rated for 6.1 COP at 68 degrees and 18.8 EER at 86degrees. (full loads reduce those efficiencies a bit). Another point to add is the de-super-heater. This permits me to offset my water heating costs by dumping heat into a potable water buffer tank that pre-heats my well water allowing my main water heaters to work less hard.
I could have higher efficiencies with a variable system rather than a 2 stage and a variable pump rather than a fixed but it made more financial sense to buy a well cared for, inspected, used unit with proper service records than it was for me to purchase a new unit with these more advanced features. At some point I might upgrade the unit but even then the costs will be far less as the lines will never need replaced and have a 100 year warranty. The expected life time from a unit like this is in the decades so a unit with only 5 years is just getting started.
When I was evaluating this I too was in a predicament with the cost to install natural gas at $80k and propane costing around $1500 for half a year. I upgraded my whole house and removed the old propane fixtures installing an induction stove, a heat-pump water heater, and an on-demand electric water heater. I also had solar panels installed that cover all of my electrical needs for over half the year. I also have an electric car and electric mower so those numbers could be higher for a person who drives a gasoline car. As a point of reference I have a builders grade home built in 1985 in NE-OHIO (Zone 5) that is 2016 square foot.
Thanks for sharing
Another point of geothermal is the benefit of no exterior noise, there is no external air handler that is making noise. One negative is the speed of heating is slower on a geo-thermal system as it outputs less BTU per unit of time vs a fossil fuels system. This means if you normally turn your heat way down when leaving the home the time it takes to re-condition the space will take longer. (honestly I don't notice this much and when I leave my home the heat drops to 55 and the AC goes up to 88). A positive is that there is no inherent need for air changes like a traditional fossil fuels system (like I had) that drew air for combustion from the home and exhausted it out the roof. This means it allows the home to leak less air during heating seasons as less air is drawn in though cracks to replenish the air lost though the flu. Air moves slower also on a geothermal unit meaning the ducts are quieter and less dust is spread around. There is also no risk for CO poisonings as there is no combustion occurring. This lowers my home insurance costs as there is less risk of fire. A ground source AC geothermal unit is also more efficient than and older central air - air sourced cooling unit. As said in the video the efficiencies don't vary due to the weather as the ground temperature remains constant. (loads will vary and that can effect efficiencies (what stage is running or the set temp inside the home).
I was also able to sell my old central air unit and furnace for 1k offsetting that out of pocket costs. So after tax incentives and the selling of the old furnace unit my costs were only $9.5k. For that cost I have a system far more efficient, that adds value to my home, improves the air quality, and can be powered by solar. If I ignore the electrical loads and only consider the propane saved with this geothermal unit, I have a payback period of about 4 years. Obviously this ignores the increase in electrical usage from other propane conversion (offset by solar), the reduction of electrical usage in the cooling seasons, the reduction of home insurance, the improved efficiencies of the home system and air tightness, the improved health with less dust and CO/CO2 production, the noise reduction or longevity of a geothermal system vs any other system being exposed to the elements outside or dealing with flames.
@@justinherman9443 Excellent points!!!
I was told the rule of thumb for horizontal bores (not trench laid loops) was one 250 ft length (500 ft total) per ton of heat/cooling. They installed 5 loops to allow additional buffer. I also was told vertical wells are a bit more efficient but come at a higher cost due to the need for a well to be dug. As far as landscape goes except for the disturbed land next to my basement wall where the manifold was installed you would never know that there was any system present. This is nice if you are in a rougher neighborhood as theft of AC units happen in some neighborhoods. Previously I had a 3 ton AC unit, 4 Ton was a better fit when calculations were being preformed on the required loads of the home.
@@justinherman9443 thanks for the serious detail. It helps
I am considering a geo thermal. I am purchasing 20 acres, however am also going to build a sunken green house on my property -about 20w x60L x 10 feet deep - 2 feet above ground glass, with a glass roof. This is in Minnesota, very cold in winter, very warm in summer along with large fluctuations during fall/spring in temps. This may be a viable option to make year round temps for the home and greenhouse. Yes, I would do most of the digging, pipe laying and unit installation myself. Very helpful video.
th-cam.com/video/UsZgCz3PQks/w-d-xo.html
Check this old boys setup. Growing citrus in a place that one would think wouldn't be feasible with this kind of a setup
Thanks. nice and lucid. Just replaced my split air con (mini split) with a new model. Comes with an air heat pump which I originally did not want due to all my wood stoves. (Glad to have this alternative due to numerous electrical outages). You explained the operation and ratings well. So much to know. My condenser is on the South side of my solar house (only direct sun gain). In the summer have an old mirror in front of it to reflect the sun. Now glad to know I should let it be in the sun in the winter for potential use.
At 10 feet deep, you shouldn't need any anti-freeze at all. I live in the north-east where it can reach -30F - -40F and our water lines are typically only 6-7 feet deep and they never freeze on us. Additionally, if you're worried about it, you could put a couple feet of dirt on top of the pipes and then put down a layer of rigid styrofoam.
well, the way heat is being extracted out of the ground, I would argue that methanol is an important component to the system, if those loops EVER freeze, it's a serious headache
I wouldn't put any sort of barrier over the coils, such as foam. It would prevent natural water penetration, bring the summer warmth from above ~
My aunt has a 15 year old one. It is on my list of things I want to do, but until the other things finished I'll need to put it off.
Never install a radiant ceilung of slab system. Impossible to TS n repair a break.
@@800lbgrila I should take note of that
Straight talk, No BS! I’m glad i watched this. Thanks for your time.
I appreciate the kind words
I too have a geo unit. One thing he never mentioned was how effective your insulation package is. It makes no sense to spend more money to efficiently add or remove heat, only to allow it to disappear through poor insulation. Poor insulation means your system works harder then it needs too, thereby reducing efficiency.
Very common technology here in the EU. We call it Ringgrabenkollektor. Very efficient and great for heating and cooling houses.
When i retired i changed my baseboard heat system to geothermal closed horizonal loop system, i have a large 2 story hobby barn with different shops in it and installed a 3 1/2 ton in my house and a 3 1/2 ton unit for my barn. I installed a 6000 foot loop bed 3 foot wide and 10 foot down, 6 1000 foot continuous runs, my 2 units can simultaneously use off of the bed, i got 30% from gov, 1500 from my co-op, 1200 from my geothermal unit manufacturer and 800 from my indiana state, i also have the prewarmer coil for my waterheater and a humidifier and air unit to help with any bacteria and virues. I am happy with my units and am doing a little here and there to make my buildings more air tight.
One thing also and a pretty big carrot, i have increased the value of my house and made my house and workshop safer with no worry of Co2 and i also gave up burning wood as a suppliment to my base board heat and i am burning no fossil fuels except at the power plant to run my pool pumps and motor to run blower to deliver my heat or cold.
Thank you for sharing!!!
Thanks for this breakdown. It’s by far, the most comprehensive and UNDERSTANDABLE explanation of this type of HVAC system that I could find.
We also own a pretty small property in Austria and we go for a vertical borehole of about 120m depth (close to 400ft).
Here many people install a „Ringgrabenkollektor“ which is essentially what you did but with a 6-7ft wide trench and in one long loop.
Variable compressionrates are a thing and we expect to pay less than 400$ a year for heating, cooling and warm water...
Thank you for sharing
Geothermal heating is a trend in Finland at the moment. Our geothermal well is closed loop type, overall 360m long loop (180m inside bedrock). The pump is a variable (inverter) type GebWell Aries COP 4.4. Dunno the costs since it was a part of a offer from the house building contractor, but it's around 20-30k€ and around 10% from our whole building costs.
He said something about getting a 7 or 8F temp difference between the outlet and the inlet. What good is that?
What stops the ground from adjusting to the temperatures in the house?
As I understand it, you use the ground precisely because the temp of the deep ground is pretty constant. This is because the ground doesn't move heat around very well (if it did, it would be the same temp as the surface). So once you have either sucked all the heat out of the soil surrounding your pipes or dumped heat from your house into that soil, how long does it take for that soil to recover back to the normal temp?
@@tarstarkusz you extract energy from the sole and the ground heats it up again as it travels through the piping.
Usually you pump it through the pipes at a rate that will regain enough energy without wasting too much energy into pumping.
Soil will get gradually colder over the heating season and can recover during summer.
You can even load energy into the soil by passivly cooling the house.
I traveled to Innsbrook(sorry if I misspelled that) while on a trip to Germany over Christmas
when I was stationed in Italy with the US Navy...
It was beautiful...!
We went to the cemetery where all of the famous people are buried...!
I will never forget all of the amazing monuments there...!
I’ve never seen anything like that since...
Happy Holidays and be blessed in 2021.
This was back in 1985-86
I think going deep was a smart idea. thats around the point where your're going to have a consistant temperature year round. You may want it cooler in the summer and warmer in the winter but it's about 55f-60f depending on where you are and the material you're in... a heatpump with a geothermal loop sounds like an amazingly efficient thermal producer.
Great video. I only have one small correction. Closed loop is generally more efficient than open loop if done correctly when you look at total system energy. Open loop typically uses a 1/2 hp well pump vs closed loop using 1/8 hp recirculating pump. This more than negates any small temp rise losses vs an open loop system.
In my experience, the loop temp isn't as import and as the delta T between supply and return. a delta T of 10F is still good regardless of loop temp.
Father-in-Law had a home built system that saved him a bunch - lots of land and a huge backhoe! We're going to relocate back to our roots (small farm) and will undoubtedly be putting in a system ourselves. Both of us retired Engineers, too. ;-> Great video, Garrett! Now I've got to peruse your other stash of videos!
if you were lucky enough to have enough space to bury a few thousand feet of 1½ inch PEX ... and have the proper soil conditions ... and already own an excavator ... and already own a high output reverse osmosis unit ... and do all the work yourself .... and you're a licensed electrician ... yup you can save some money. And if you already own an 8kW solar system it starts to become down right affordable.
Do note that you want to put in enough heat in the ground in the summer as you can cool down your well area. You may not notice it as it wont be apparent in one or two years, and you may suspect your pump is loosing efficiency gradually. I know a larger complex where this was an issue. The system was fine in the beggining and got more expensive than the natural gas it was replacing. Turns out the buildings were comfy without ac during the summer so they seldom used the cooling function. The issue was solved by charging the system with summer heat, without a heat pump and the heating bill was fine after that.
Thanks for sharing
Please explain what you mean by charging the system with summer heat? Are you actually heating the ground during the summer with heat that will still be there months later (vs. nearby “naturally heated” soil)?
@@maranatha3333 For a residential system, this problem really shouldn't happen. For commercial, it sure can.
@@maranatha3333 Yes because basically, the heat you put in or take out of the soil spreads out. It needs balancing out to some degree. For instance, if you do not cool your house off in summer you are not pumping any heat into the ground. However, in winter, you are extracting heat from the ground. Meaning you are making the ground very cold. Well, that ground will stay cold for a very long time. Possibly a number of years. Ground temps around here are about 54-57 degrees Fahrenheit. If you live in an area that gets really cold and the top 24 inches of the soil freezes then you know how long it can take to thaw that out. Imagine it 7 to 9 feet down where every winter you have dropped the temperature 10 degrees. The colder it gets the less efficient it is for heating the house in winter. It would make it super efficient for cooling in summer though. This is why it needs balanced out a bit and should be used in both seasons.
@@consaka1 thanks, makes sense.
Lots of good information. I had a heat pump back in the 80s. It was crap for heat, and the compressor went out after 5 years. I was told that was good service at the time. Unless they have improved greatly I would never have another. Geothermal is the way to go.
Thanks
Heat pumps have indeed improved greatly since the 80's. Roughly 30-40 years of advancements. These new units can operate down to -30° and offer 90% efficiency rating to 0° F.
They're WAY better now.
My last heat pump, a two speed Lennox, lasted 27 years. I just replaced it last year.
l just built a new house here in Maine. I have Misabishi H2 for heat pumps. they are my primary source of heat. this type works extremely well.
I used purified water in my cars coolant and intercooler system. Every few years id notice a gasket failing or pitting in the aluminum sealing surface area. Although distilled and reverse osmosis water are pure and keep scalling and contamination out of your system one thing important to monitor is PH. Purer water can become acidic and eat copper and aluminum commonly found in heat exchangers.
Just got a bid starting at 60k, going to do this myself. Thanks for posting!
I'll watch the other half of the video later but so far you are explaining this better than most teachers 👍🏼🍺
Thanks for the kind words.
That's why most teachers don't have hundereds of thousands of people paying attention to thier class.
I just bought a place in Tennessee and I plan on putting geothermal in it. I'm in the process now of power cables and driveway and I'm going to try to do my geothermal tubing in the ground at the same time. I plan on running mine to a well house where I'll have a storage tank where it will circulate the glycol water solution and then from there out to my greenhouse out to my house and whatever other little project I've got going. Thank you very much for the update.
one thing you need to be cautious of is the real high SEER units have fine fins and some of that savings goes right back into seasonal calls for coil cleanings.
Good point
Going to do one on 5 acres. Northern nevada has crazy temperature swings. I think geothermal would be hugely efficient. Thanks for the video.
Good deal!!!
Is this a new house or one that is already built? If you're building the geo is just part of your system. There's other things that need to be done along with the geo system.
Also going to be doing one in Nevada. NW corner. And everything will be solar powered.
@@stevelux9854 what will you use for a HVAC system?
@@kenhurley4441 Don't know yet. Still doing research. Out there, because of the low humidity, swamp coolers are very effective at cooling.
I'd love to install a geothermal system. It's truly the most efficient system least affected by variables and starts and ends with a stable temperature base. I learned so much from you (admit I had to replay it a few times, just a simple 64 yr old blue collar gal). I'd have to do the 2-well system. I moved to Iowa, into an old house on a small .03ac lot. Apparently this county has the hardest water in the state of Iowa, at 297. In researching this hard water issue, I discovered a company that has this small gadget that brackets around the water line, that not only renders the minerals to harmless states and prevents buildup, it begins eroding existing buildup! AND it implodes bacteria. (No I'm not affiliated.) I am excited at using it now as I can remove the harmful salt/sodium water softener. And I could use it on the 2-well system you described and not worry about the buildup! Its affordable, too. IF I could only afford the rest of the geothermal... lol.
I appreciate you leaving the comment
Well, I wasn't thinking about geothermal in my next house, but now,... it sounds like a wise notion.
Carl you will not regret i had myb6 years an no trouble an love it!!!!! So cheap electric bill!!
The install process seems overwhelming but 25 years later it will still be as good!
I converted our large rural home to propane from electric furnace a little over a year ago. The cost to operate dropped by 60%. The cost to install was pretty close to what you ended up spending. Looking back, I should have given more consideration to a ground based heat pump.
You're at the mercy of propane prices vs electric prices. Pick your poison. I like the idea of heat not being tied to the grid for reliability.
Big plus for propane.
I'm considering doing my own closed loop geothermal array but am also considering doing an array of cheap used solar panels and making my own battery backup with used EV Batteries.
We'll see how it goes.
I am reviewing all my saved geothermal systems and I like the info you supply with the pictures. About your two dug well systems and pump from one well and return to the other . If you dig two wells and use cement well crocks that are over 1 meter in size and install to the bottom black water pipe that are still coiled from shipping and use them for your water circulation. 1 you will not have any mineral contamination from your wells and 2 you join the two coils together close to the surface to make the 2 coils in series you will have twice the cooling capacity or better still just use ONE well for your cooling and make sure you supply a secondary water supply to insure there will always be plenty of water in your cooling well....
I have been wanting the technology to get more affordable. I have had a concept for using geothermal since i was a kid. I am getting close to actually building my dreamhouse. Thank you for this video.
Very cool
Outstanding presentation - good, practical content that didn't skate over the surface or shy away from theory; it was thoughtfullly organised and edited, and fluently presented. Thank you very much. And what a joy to hear proper un-mumbled sentences entirely free of 'like' 'insane' 'awesome' and other examples of sloppy education & thinking.
You are very kind!!!
You forgot starting every sentence with "So..." and then "crazy"
n taking the time to talk to us in a way that gives us time grasp your words to not b rushed into stress. n also not boring us with other useless syllables, ah, umm, n no background "music" or other ambiant animal, people, n traffic noises camouflaging your message is refreshing. just u n i. Cudos
We are in the process of moving to MI.
I don't understand why a person wouldn't install their own closed loop geothermal field.
I'm getting ready to start building small ICF homes, my plan is to install a geothermal array for the house, one for the garage, and one for the sidewalk and driveway.
Could you show more pictures or more video time of your actual work? That would be awesome!!
I'm considering GT as an option for my retirement/downsizing home on the farm. Plenty of land but wells are not a good option (water well is 420') so the closed loop is a better fit. Thank you for the info. Well presented and very educational!
Check out Fujitsu air source one they heat till -40 Often can put in a unit in a day or two Not digging Google it save big on install
@@saygrey Please send me a link 🔗
Bob Mitchell I would call a good quality Refridgeration company and ask around if they know about this stuff I just installed one this last week again
Bob Mitchell Im from manitoba canada We at the company i work for are going to be training to do multi plex and high rises with these fujitsu units
You can dump waste heat into a swimming pool in the summer. And get heat in the pool for "free".
And You can also use Solar water heater panels to heat a large water storage tank in the basement or outbuilding. This can be a heat source for the heat-pump. Excess solar heat gets transferred to the pool in the autumn and spring, when water is in the pool. And when there will be a lot of waste-heat due to reduced heating needs in those seasons.
Wow, outstanding job! Thanks for explaining how a heat pump works (best I have ever heard). The amount of explanation and knowledge from you helped me understand so much. Watching this video should earn you a diploma of some kind.
I appreciate the kind words
The reason for not digging too deep, is that you want the mass of dirt around the pipes to warm up during summer. You have to remember that the term "geothermal" is missleading. You use solar energy. The sun has to heat the ground during summer, then you extract the energy from the ground during winter. If you dig too deep, you risk to permanently cool the ground.
My system, used since 2002, has the water pipe's 4 ft down into a field. Pipe is 1-1\2" plastic water pipe, about 1200 ft. It works perfectly, the incoming water/alcohol gets warmer as soon as the snow melts off in the spring.
The system is very economical
That's very interesting. I hadn't seen this suggestion before. Seems like 4 feet deep is way less effort/time/money than 10 ft deep like this video.
You seem to be talking about a system for heating only. I'll bet you live fairly far north where air conditioning is not commonly needed. If you both heat in the winter and cool in the summer (for approximately equal periods,) you will not permanently cool the ground and the influence of the sun is unimportant. In the system described in the video, "geothermal" is not at all misleading.
Our small house's geothermal system uses a single borehole that goes a hundred meters deep or more. During the winter, we suck heat out of the ground around the well; during the summer we push heat back down there. We live in Oklahoma, where the heating and cooling needs are almost perfectly balanced.
The earth's heat comes from the core and mantle and any heat variances that may be created in the crust near the surface even out over time (I wonder how rapidly). The system in the video has worked well for the vast majority of U.S. residents -- from Ohio in the north to Texas in the south. I'd be interested in learning about research into any changes of efficiency over time that can be shown to be because of overheating or overcooling of the subsurface matrix near the piping. Also research into how rapidly heat conducts through rock, etc.
I defy anyone to "permanently cool" the earth.
My folks have a geothermal heat pump in finland.
I think they had to fill the lines with just about pure antifreeze, so the efficiency of that is not great. Fortunately, they have a large field next to the house, so the losses in fluid are covered by the pure distance of pipe running underground.
Its a hell of a system.
Thank you for sharing
Thank you, looking at Bosch heat pumps now. I'm also a non-qualified (non-ticketed) builder planning to build a unique home and considering using underground cisterns as a switched heat source/sink for a seasonal boost in efficiency. Lots to learn. Thank you for this information.
Always have been curious how a geo thermal unit works. Now I know exactly! Thanks👍
Glad to help
Great info. Have almost 5 acres, but I also live in New England so rocks are our major problem. I’m guessing the two well system would work better, but the plus side is the water table is only about 8 feet down. The downside is our water is hard as well, but mostly iron.
You can build a still an distill the water your self I'd have a preference in type of pipe sounds like you did good like it . My zone ground temp 65°F below 24" yes I'd use geo thermal .
You can easily distill your own water with a dehumifier(s). If you start collecting as you plan and construct, the timing might work out. Awesome video!!!
Congratulations! You explained all phases correctly and your logic is shared with the right vernacular. Nothing was a waste of time and effort and we are informed as a result. This is rare for most people who tend to get off on tangents and wonder in an unnecessary dialog. Thank you!
Thank you for the kind words!
In 1990, we were the contractors for our new home. We chose geothermal. It was an excellent system. 2 acres provided plenty space for a closed loop system. One winter our neighbors had monthly heating bills of $1,000 to $3,000; our bill was $225. My sister put her geo system in 1987, her system is still working well for her. Our biggest problem back then was finding contractors to work on and maintain the system.
If I was to do it again I would strongly consider a passive system approach. If a 5,000 sqft home can be heated with a hair dryer and air exchanger in the morning, I’m in. An the a/c is similar deal. Yes there is upfront cost but not as much as a geo. System.
Garrett: "My system was so cheap!"
Also Garrett: "I paid top dollar for all my equipment!"
I can't wait to do mine.
Who says I paid top dollar? I just bought good quality.
Also- has own mini excavator and is able to do own electrical. DIY, yes for you- but not your typical joe
@@CW-xh8uw I get where you’re coming from - and I love learning DIY- but electrical stuff is something I’m not comfortable doing
@@TJHutchExotics You can rent the proper equipment, which should not cost all that much. Electricity follows the laws of physics, which everyone should have learned at school, which is payed for by taxes and the proper safety measures to follow to do electrical work safely and correct are available from the governing bodies of that field for free on the internet, common sense can help improve safety further.
@@TJHutchExotics I learned electrical all on my own. It started early though, when we were kids, we would unscrew the Christmas lights on the tree and see who could hold their finger in the socket the longest.
Thank you, clear and concise, you eliminated all the mystery involved in G/T with your explanation, appears pretty simple, just labor intense.
at some point in the future , definitely. I was aware of some of what you said, but I was not aware of not needing a heating and cooling person. Thanks I enjoyed all your Geothermal videos.
I think this makes sense in almost any climate but especially new builds in cold climates (along with going above code for insulation and air sealing).
Check the Passivhaus standard, Mark Siddall at LEAP architects is leading the way on that in England. Fascinating stuff
About to change from a biomass boiler and have the land with the house which is clay subsoil. GSHP is a project I realise I can do myself after watching your own project experience. Thanks
Glad to help. I have a couple of vids on it and plan to make 1 or 2 more.
I use geothermal heating/cooling. The ground temperature year round at 10 feet is 67 degrees. When it's -20ºF outside in the winter 67ºF is heat. When it's 110ºF in the summer 67ºF is cooling. It all runs through the same underground system and is closed loop. I used 1 in pex with 2 runs of 1000 feet and it works great. The biggest issue is friction loss for the pump so make sure that to get the proper GPM with minimal friction loss which will allow for a smaller pump and longer pump life. At 3gpm with 1 inch pex the loss at 1000 feet is only 7psi. With 3/4 inch pex it's 23psi. The difference is that a 70 watt pump can be used with the 1 inch pex but a 150 watt pump needs to be used for the 3/4 in pex to get the same GPM. Plus the higher pressure means shorter life for the pump.
We had an open dump system with a two compressor system and Never had an issue. In Mi in sand. 18 years and sold the house in a heartbeat. looked into closed loop and well drop loop. Open dump was the way to go. No dual well just one for feed and dumped into the sand. Love geo thermal.
Very nice
Sand is porous. That means it is not good for closed loop as the gaps act as insulators.
It also means that the open loop systems naturally work better than in other dirt. So you were wise or lucky to chose open loop
Looked at buying a house that was open loop. Dumped into a pond it back. It scared me because I didn't know much about GT and I thought it was drawing water from there. I was like no way! 😆. I didn't but the house for a lot of other reasons anyway.
Very illegal in most areas.
@@Droptineful where?
Very cool.
I'd like to do a closed loop geothermal on a new ICF house build and setup closed loop in floor heat as well as loops for a heated sidewalk/patio and driveway.
In Sweden it's prohibited to pump water up from the ground and then pump it back again. The reason for it is the risk of groundwater pollution. Instead, we use tubes with liquid going down in the ground, picking up the energy, and circulating back to the heat pump. It's what you call a close loop. We also use deep boreholes reaching the deep groundwater resources, 350 ft or more, instead of digging on the surface. This enables even small lots of land to use geothermal energy.
i am in Canada and I am definitely considering putting one for the NetZero house that i planning to build in 2 years. I am already on the look out for ides. Thx. for the video.
I'm in Australia, no snow, but frost to -5 degrees C. Up to 45 max summer. I just put in lots of solar PV. Then run a standard heat pump air-conditioning system. I have no power costs at all. All electric home. Geo looks good, but not cost effective for me. Canada, yes I'm sure.
Well done. You should also factor in the life of the equipment. Any unit which is outside the house such as a conventional HVAC system is quickly damaged by the external environment and its life is greatly reduced. Typical geothermal systems last 25-30 years. If you have to replace a conventional HVAC system entirely in a 30 year period, your cost is over double (inflation) as well as the cost to run the unit which is also much higher every year.
very good point. so if the system cost was $27k thats roughly $1k/year + power & maintenance. that doesnt seem cheap.
Nice video , thanks. For any tradesman, HVAC folks or Garrett, maybe your thoughts on this. In the northeast oil burner hydronic baseboard is common. these systems circulate plain water through pex and copper pipes in baseboard all over the house. My home presently has 3 circulators. I know from my original home, with 3 furnaces over 70 years, these baseboard water circulation systems last decades. make up water is put into the loops occassionally. Hard water is very common. My family home had such terrible water but a water softener helped a lot, and the oil burner guys installed a cartridge, I think it might be a potassium permagenate, or some type of additive. there's no distilled water or antifreeze, these systems are circulating about 100 gallons of water 24/7 ,year in and year out. I have had to replace circulators very rarely, like once every 10 to 15 years. i am nervous about distilled water because it is basically ionically active, it tends to eat into metal. maybe the antifreeze helps. but if the water is at 50/60 degrees, and it drops 8 degrees after geo exchange, it's still far from freezing. compared to hydronic baseboard systems, I wonder just how much antifreeze is needed? a 50/50 antifreeze mixture has 35% lower heat capacity, and 35% lower heat conductivity. Trying to sort all this out.........
The manufacturer of my geo unit requires a minimum of 20% antifreeze within the system to prevent microbial growth.
@@Challenged1 20% sounds good. I wouldn't think there'd be any benefits in going higher.
@@gregmcbrien2106 If your ground temp and fluid temp don't require it, save the money
When I replaced the A/C unit last spring, I asked the gentleman who installed it for me about the heat pump system and he honestly told me that he has one and that it cost him more to use because it has to run all of the time. I'm very happy that he was honest with me.
It sounds like the guy who installed your HVAC doesn't understand that his own system isn't working properly - once the valves are in summer position there is zero difference between a heat pump and an air conditioner, and a guy in the biz would have to have his head pretty far up his rectum to not get that 'my AC has to run all day' is a service call.
People do be dumb like that. Quite possible his compressor just needs to be hosed out.
Great video! Easy to understand. You explained very clearly how this works. You sound like an engineer that’s been doing this for years. Thanks.
I am going to simply dig a shallow well to pump enough water to circulate in pex pipes under the floor to cool in summer and warm in winter since water will be at 25C(77F). The discharge will go into an existing irrigation tank. An open loop system at a tenth of your price.
It won't do much. The BTU transfer rate will be pretty small since the difference between the water and ambient air is small.