Give Us Surround Sound Decoders!! [[[Z Rants]]]
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 ต.ค. 2024
- How my Home Theater Works: • MAD SCIENCE HOUR - Exp...
TASCAM PA-R200 ------------------- [amzn.to/39gjWbJ]
Emotiva MC-700 --------------------- [emotiva.com/co...]
Benchmark Dacs -------------------- benchmarkmedia...[]
Martin Logan Electrostats ------ [amzn.to/2XsH6WS]
- - - - - -
⚔️www.SubscribeS... -- Subscribe Star
🥇 / zeos -- Check out the Patreon
- - - - - -
Auro 3D -------------------------- [www.auro-3d.com/]
JDSlabs Odac ----------------- [Too Old]
OPPO BluRay ----------------- [www.oppodigita...](Not the Same Unit I saw)
HFguides Thread ------------ [forum.hifiguid...]
Geshelli Jnog DAC ---------- [geshelli.com/s...]
UNBOXING CHANNEL --------- [ / ze0spantera ]
Baby Computer --------------- [amzn.to/39eID8l]
miniDSP HD --------------------- [amzn.to/3npfL2c]
miniDSP nanoDIGI ----------- [www.minidsp.co...]
JDSlabs ELii DAC ------------- [jdslabs.com/pr...]
Crown 2502 --------------------- [amzn.to/3bnIkL2]
Klipsch Heresy ----------------- [amzn.to/3hWXwQs]
Infinity Subs --------------------- [www.amazon.com...]
Geshelli Enog ------------------ [Discontinued]
FiiO D3 ------------------------------ [amzn.to/3qhTvcD]
RME ADi2 ------------------------- [amzn.to/38s6wtJ]
Sescom Switch ---------------- [amzn.to/38tIJK4]
Douk U2 --------------------------- [amzn.to/39lfqZi]
miniDSP U-DIO8 --------------- [www.minidsp.co...]
The EXPANSE ------------------ [amzn.to/3bs3yaC]
LSR 305 --------------------------- [amzn.to/39hUBhp]
Klipsch RP150m -------------- [amzn.to/39jNR2r]
SMSL DA8s AMP ------------- [amzn.to/3s9oclI]
Swan M3a ------------------------ [amzn.to/2JYIFsg]
Buchardt A500 ----------------- [www.buchardtau...]
HDMI Switches w Fiber ---- [amzn.to/39fUzGR]
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Wallpaper : hifiguides.pag... XlA1puY.png
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
[Teespring.com/...] -- MERCH
[HiFiGuides.com] -- A Better Buying Guide & Forums
[linktr.ee/Zeos...] -- All Social Media Links
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. Yada Yada - บันเทิง
I'D BUY THAT!
HiFiguides Thread ------ forum.hifiguides.com/t/request-for-surround-sound-decoders-dac-bypass-processors/20048
I have wanted this since 10 years at least...
The size of what you are asking to be created is small as a grain, its just a firmware flash chip. It will never happen Z. Sound processor is the most you can ask for but you can ask for processors without license and then having to purchase the license for each decoder that you just need.
In short, you want surround processors without any license and then you choose what you want, example: i want only Dolby digital, processor then prompts you to a online screen and you make the purchase of Dolby license.
I! I want this to Z!
(Almost)no one cares. that's why no one makes it and no one sells it.
I never understood why this didnt exist either.
Zeos' basement always makes me think of a flea market I could spend all day and my money in.
More like all of my organs.
DRM says hi, and also no.
Exactly, the elephant is in the corner....Hollywood has all the lawyers needed to keep that key out of the lock.
I did think of that too, but maybe if you're licenced to decode DTS/Dolby you could get away with splitting out separate PCM channels over something like TOSLINK. I think it would be difficult and pointless to re-encode the audio back to the original mix for the sake of piracy without the video signal anyway?
BEFORE IT IS BROUGHT UP! I am aware the dac's would be De-Synced and timing would be off between them. BUT this would be compensated by systems like Audyssey or so small it is inconsequential. I use to separate dacs in my current HT with no negative impacts on balance or anything else I can perceive.
yo zeos, you need to set up a home gym and get ripped af. That'd be sick
not only that, but the DAC would have to be Dolby certified with piracy protection and this would drive up the cost for each DAC. Therefore the DA conversion must happen in the device thats decoding the surround signal so just get a decent surround processor with good build in DACs
what about those all in 1 pc you have in your house i think you have 3 or more of them zeos would those pc's work
@@juliangst I think this could be circumvented if you sell the 8 channel processing and the sacs in a combo unit. Ofc I habe 0 knowledge about the actual dolby certification process and prices, just an idea
@@BenjyP. this might works but makes no sense to do because you would end up with basically a processor in different boxes. What Z wants is to use his own dacs but I think thats not possible for those licensing reasons
I've been yelling about this product not existing for the past year! We need dedicated surround decoders
How much are you willing to pay for this type of product ?
@@martinjean5198 Sweet spot would be around $500
1+ fully agree
I did sound for a 1 off movie premier and we had all the amps backstage. We dropped a dante rack by the media server guys up in the projection booth. Using virtual soundcard they were able to simply plug an ethernet into their machine, send the 7.1 over the dante network which was carried over fiber backstage to a small console which spat out AES to the amps. Literally digital all the way from the source to the amplifier. Shit sounded so clean.
I feel like my basement doesn't need Dante but it be so good.
@@ZReviews Dante certainly seems like overkill, but I know people with home studios that use dante because they can easily run audio from one room in the house to another simply using the installed house cat5e. I wish more home audio companies implemented networked audio.
@@ZReviews Do it i'm begging you🥺🥺🥺🥺😩😩😤😤😤😤
I think I would go with Dante, with Dante "Via" you should be able to set Foobar to stereo, and your movie program to 7.1 or even 14.2 and then run any these 16 Channels to any individual dac/amp.
But I am just a 19-year-old student who neither has a home cinema nor the money for a Dante-setup, but with an interest in Pro-audio. But yea, Dante is probably overkill.
But I would definitely like to see it.
@@aaronpieper3978 he could run Ethernet through his house and do all kinds of crazy stuff with a dante network sending audio and video around to different places
I knew exactly where this video was going and I agree completely.
It's going to a world where you just replace the brains and not the horsepower when you need an upgrade. It's going exactly where prosumer home networking is going (a la UBNT) where it's all separates and you can mix and match to your heart's content.
How much are you willing to pay for this type of product ?
Actually, what we need is surround processors (with dac) AND vst plugins. Any old 150$ laptop will run a plethora of FREE vst plugins that will put to shame ANY surround decoder at ANY price point. In other words, we need pc soundcards with arc/earc inputs that's not overpriced to the moon. That'd put pretty much all these overpriced home theater companies out of busyness overnight.
Post a vid/link on this...exactly what im trying to accomplish...maybe even better through XBOX1X 💥🏁🚀
"Speakers can last 40 fuckin years..." Stares at recently purchased Ohm model H's refurbed from the factory
You can do this. Or pretty close at least. You can buy the license to DTSx and/or Atmos
In windows and using a digital audio cable(s) (hificable uses asio) you should be able to route each piece of the audio accordingly L, R, etc. To each independent dac/amp.
And to add, you can also use Equalizer APO and fuck with eqs and everything under the sun.
I wonder if there is a way to do this with linux+raspberry pi and make a dedicated headless unit. I'm sure it's a huge if since dolby would say F-off to open source anything. Maybe there is a way to run windows binarys through wine emulation. Hmmm.. Someone out there has to be able to know if this is feasible.
If you can decode the signal in windows, you can feed that into the minidsp 88D as digital input and do all the splitting, timing correction and what not in there. At least I think so :)
@@fieldcar ffmpeg can decode dolby anything short of atmos (atmos enabled content decodes as TrueHD surround) and DTS anything short of DTS:X. So if you're not planning on adding a height channel it should already be possible now.
@@xureality This gives me ideas.
@@xureality Didn't know of ffmpeg. Just did a little looksee, and I would agree. Possibly, use ffmpeg to decode,set up a server to use ffplay to stream the individual channels,or pairs/whatever over network to Pi's-USB-DAC-Amp-Spkr. ..... Big question, ... finding someone/anyone who has thought about this and, possibly started the endeavour, or someone who knows how to use the building blocks to put this together. Wish I had the coding chops, but alas, I find myself wanting......... Somebody here, or, Z's extended crew, has got to know how to code this...
The HDCP agreement means a device isn't allowed to output high res digital out of the HDMI input. So you'd be limited to 48kHz 16bit stereo. And if you want more the device can't be HDCP compliant which basically means goodbye streaming services and Bluray, so nobody makes these. I guess you'd have to pirate remuxed and copyright protection stripped content even if you're already paying for it.
Arvus H2-UDMA exists(?) but is sadly a couple thousand $. HDMI in to basically anything (including AES/EBU) at once. MADI Optical and Coax is an extra cost. Does everything DTS and Dolby including Atmos. (Arvus HDMI-2A is cheaper but no atmos, also old)
Wow thats close to what I want. Shame it went out of business.
@@ZReviews I'm a complete noob....but....could it be worth checking out newer AVR offerings. I have to believe they've come a long way from 7 years ago when it comes to the internal dacs these AVR's have. Probbaly not the best of the best (what is what you're looking for) but got to be better than Teac 7 year old AVR DAC no?
16bit 48KHZ is a hole lot bettre than 12$ dacs in a processor
@@icyphilippe It's 16bit 48kHz stereo not surround for LPCM out. Some devices bypass this restriction by presenting the digital out as ARC in which case the LPCM restriction still applies, but bitstreaming lossy surround formats becomes an option. The problem is that you could make such a product (like the one I mentioned) but it's already niche and it just won't sell without HDCP support. You could make it switch depending on if the input is HDCP encrypted or not and receivers like that exist (like ISP mk2) but they come at an absurd price range. You could get a splitter that "accidentally" strips HDCP which would allow you to make it work but it's a bit of a gray area and nobody wants to make a product that relies on that to be used.
Is it possible to make this product with only ARC/eARC input ? Will the HDCP agreement apply on ARC/eARC ?
Yes please, this. Someone build this please. I use miniDSP for all channels so going to analogue before translating back to digital feels like such a painfull step and especially pointless
...
edit: nevermind, zeos touched on this a bit further into the video.
There's two ways I know of to get surround digital outputs *from a computer.* these methods are of course limited to what a PC can decode, so no Atmos or anything like that.
The "proper way:" professional AES/EBU sound cards. 8 or even 16 stereo channels. of course you wouldn't get fancy room correction/delay compensation/Audyssey/whatever, but you can do that from a nanodigi anyways, right?
The "extreme jank please never ever do this" way: pulseaudio in Linux allows you to bond together as many sound devices as you'd like. 16 USB to SPDIF converters hanging off your PC? sure. *However,* I spent months trying to get two cheapo usb sound cards to play nice together and it will work but occasionally one would become delayed for no apparent reason, and glitches are aplenty.
after some digging there's the RME Digiface USB, literally a USB sound card with 4*stereo SPDIF outs, but it's $500.
@UCBGWmgxU-zSWNUYDgZ-Q4fg i doubt the STX can decode atmos, it might be decoding just the underlying TrueHD or Digital Plus streams, and not actually the full atmos experience. More importantly, can you even adjust the outputs to the height channel? because if not it'd be rather useless...
Or you could hire a choir and tell them to stand around you and sing
@@nitromenoob I would love to hear a choir try to sing explosions or sci fi sound effects
YES PLEASE!! Emotiva please listen to mad lad!
Doesn't MiniDSP make one ? The DDRC-88D. If I understand correctly you can use each channel, output it digital to your favorite dac then amp and then speaker :)
Just looked at this Minidsp now and you're 100% right. It has 8 channels of SPDIF or AES and is USB fed.
The only real question would be Dolby or DTS.
@@KamielSadien I''m not sure how dolby's or dts encoding works on a low level, but can't you use any dolby certified encoding box and pass the encoded format as a digital input into the minidsp? Something like the FeinTech VAX01201 (I just typed dolby encoding box into Amazon)
This video unfortunately told me everything I needed to know about my current situation : what I want doesn't exist in my price range. I use a computer for my 'home theater', and I was looking for a decent way to externally amp my front tower speakers without losing 4.1 capabilities. Thanks for the video Zeos.
We had Surround Decoders in the 90s lol. That was for analog Lt/Rt encoded LCRS, the same format as the original Dolby Stereo 35mm format. What you want is an HDMI processor/converter, decoding a lossless Dolby/DTS bitstream to LPCM and spitting out up to 7.1 over digital. The reason this isn't allowed is for HDMI/Copy Protection crap mainly. But there is actually 1 legit solution STILL made and it's from Meridian, a company who hasn't embraced the whole "object based" surround formats and specializes in giving you the best sounding pure multi-channel music and 7.1 HT experience. They don't use HDMI decoding in their processors as they prefer to keep it outside of the system, so they use a specialized HDMI Processor that is fed from a UHD BD Player (That does the TrueHD and DTS-HD MA decoding to LPCM) and the raw 8-Channel lossless PCM is then extracted and sent over "Smartlink", 4 Digital Coax outputs, in pairs for all 8 channels. The newer ones use something called MMHR, an ethernet connection to do the same 8 channel PCM transfer, but still include the Digital Coax 4x 7.1 output. Despite Meridian saying its "encrypted' it's actually not, what is encrypted is their 96K upsampling tech, but you could use a Meridian HDMI 621 or 722 processor, have it fed decoded LPCM 7.1 over HDMI from your BD player and you will get 4x 8 channel pure digital outputs and you'd be able to feed 4x benchmark dacs like they did in the exhibit you were talking about. I use an HDMI 621 with my Accuphase VX-700 to feed it lossless surround from a Sony UHD Player since it only does lossy internal decoding. The Accuphase had 4x Digital Coax 8ch inputs for an outboard DSP system of theirs but it works all the same as I use it lol. The Accuphase is really an incredible Pre-Pro, shame they stopped making them. And I have an another 621 in an actual Meridian 7.1 system where it's used "as intended". The other reason why these don't exist from mass market options besides the obvious HDMI/Copy Protection fiasco is that surround sound is moving away from being channel based and moving to something that is spatially encoded (Atmos/DTS:X) and then gets processed and sent to certain channels to simulate sound in space as opposed to them being premixed. Atmos is massively overrated though, really good 5.1, 6.1, 7.1 etc is always gonna blow away crappy fake Atmos you see with all these soundbars now a days anyway. That Tascam was a nice AVR, I had the same one too about 8-9 years ago. It's the pro audio version of the Integras, and from the same TEAC/Onkyo/Integra family of brands. Good stuff.
MAXIMUM OVERDRIVE
The sound of a Detroit diesel haunts me in my dreams.
Noice
@@ZReviews wsp z....
I have thought the same exact thing many times over the years, but I am not willing to pay $1500
This is similar to what Steinway Lyngdorf, Trinnov, and Datasat do. Trinnov and Datasat have the digital connection from the decoder/processor to the amp. Their amps and a couple others. SL does it differently and I think they have digital amps. It's unfortunately a very expensive system but if you compare it to other high end home theater systems it's comparable. Their room perfect eq doesn't require acoustic treatments.
I'd be into this as well. Make the thing firmware upgradable to add new licenses for codecs. Bonus points for modular so the hdmi subsystem can be upgraded for when 2.2 or later comes out. Will pay the moneys for that
How much are you willing to pay for this type of product ?
Most of the higher end processors, like the Emotiva RMC-1 and RMC-1L, actually have audiophile DACs in them and the RMC-1 in particular has an individual DAC for every one of its 16 channels. The cheaper XMC-2 has individual DACs for the front 3 channels and then one DAC for every other two channels after that. I have the XMC-2 and it sounds pretty amazing for a surround sound processor. You should try to get Emotiva to send your both of those for testing.
The problem is that all most people want is 7.2 channels and you can't get a high end surround processor that's only 7.2 channels. I don't want to pay for those extra 3-4 dacs in a 16 channel processor if I'm not going to use them. If the units were separate and you could choose your own components and how many channels you want, then you could get much higher quality sound at a lower price.
Emotiva RMC-1 are still trash AVR meaning closed software with planned obsolescence.
With a PC you can do ANYTHING. Just the ability to use VST plugins would make any Trinnov or Stormaudio look like a child toy.
Also... Emotiva is anything BUT quality. Their gear have been measured several times and the implementation is anythng but stellar.
Where would the volume control be? Digital volume control would be less desirable. You’d need a multi channel preamp after the d/a conversation I think.
Here's the problem with what you're asking, and my apologies if you addressed it later in the video, but it's too long to watch in its entirety. PCM output doesn't have a volume meta data*, it's a pure digital representation of an analog wave. This mean you would have to adjust the volume in each DAC/AMP. You could use a multi channel DAC/AMP, in which case, you now made a processor.
* You could control the volume of PCM, by reducing the wave's amplitude, but you'll be losing resolution the lower you go.
Yes! Couldn't agree more. That way I can use my high-end dac for the front two channels and something like an SMSL Sanskrit 10th for the others
First off, THANK YOU FOR SAYING THIS!!! Oh my god I cannot tell you how stupid it is that if I just want a 5.2 channel with 2 atmos speakers I have to fork out 4 grand for a processor with decent dacs in it only to have to replace the entire damn unit when a new format comes out, instead of just replacing the part that needs replacing. This would be the best thing to ever happen to home theatre enthusiasts who also like to listen to high quality 2 channel audio.
Secondly, I think the market overlap between people who currently buy a surround processor and people would would buy a surround decoder is larger than you think. People who buy processors already want the modularity, so for them it'd be a no brainer to get even more modularity.
Finally, definitely agree about The Expanse. Holy shit man what a show.
I'd Buy it!!!! I am in your position, though this is over a year ago, and you may have solved it, but looking at MiniDSP site...SCREW THEM...Everything is expensive, and the niche hobby is not worth that money they demand(notice how they want to phase out the 6x8, as they claim no chipset...buy improved unit). Emotiva, also overpriced!
It won't ever happen imo because as soon as you have e.g. Dolby Atmos 'digital' PCM outputs from a decoder, you're then able to duplicate bit-perfect audio. The industry will simply not allow that, so the solution is you're stuck with analogue audio output from expensive AV receivers or to keep everything digital, it's all hidden I the HDMI passthrough you can't get at.
There is a hack for Apply Music to get at Dolby Atmos audio from Apple Music, that's the only 'digital' PCM access I'm aware of.
I see more people buying the purely digital version, me included, because this is fir asholes that already have a high end dac. This would be the best device to get stereo people into multichannel.
How much are you willing to pay for this type of product ?
A computer running linux can do this. You can map the PCM channels up to infinite to different hw addresses in alsa. Its way easier than it sounds.
Is there any way you could do this in PC to have multi USB dacs on different USB ports and assign audio channels separately to the different USB ports? I.E Front 2 channels USB 1, rear 2 USB 2 etc.
@@jono6379 I think equalizer APO can do this, but either way there's no reason why it couldn't be done.
@@jono6379 i've spent months doing this in pulseaudio, it *can,* but i don't know what's causing it to become broken occasionally, causing weird delays and glitches in the output. I was using different models of sound devices (basically what i had lying around at the time) so that might be one thing.
if you just want digital SPDIF outputs, your best bet is probably AES/EBU pcie cards with aes to spdif adaptors.
@@xureality so correct me if im wrong but are you talking about internal sound cards?
I was talking about external dacs with usb inputs. So you could assign on pc different usb ports to different channels effectively using your pc to split the channels and send digitally out. Or is this going down a rabbit hole of is USB out different/worse than optical?
@@jono6379 I'm saying you can do the split surround into multiple usb dacs thing, but it's such a hassle (and glitchy) that buying a USB to multiple SPDIF outputs (MiniDSP U-DIO8, $325 or RME Digiface USB, $500) or a pci card (didn't bother to check prices on them) is much better to save your sanity.
If you don't think so check out pulseaudio's documentation: www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/PulseAudio/Documentation/User/Modules/
Pay close attention to module-combine-sink and module-remap-sink, these are your ticket. I'll be back with code examples when i found them, it's been a while and i know i did a poor job at writing things down.
I'm fairly certain that the reason such a thing doesn't exist is because of the licensing agreements that OEMs have to sign off on with Dolby/DTS/etc. They're SUPER picky about how their formats are processed and then presented to the user and would probably frown upon given said user that much control over 'their' audio formats...
At this point, the only processor I know of that even sends out a -digital- signal for any given channel is one of the new JBL Synthesis units that uses Dante. But even then I'm not sure what touches the signal path inside to be able to say that it's a 'pure' digital signal or if there's some amount of ADA/DAD going on before it gets sent out.
Meridian have been doing this since the 90s.
A 568 processor (pre 2000) sends digital or analog data to either an analogue amp or digital speakers with a DAC and amp built in.
However, why? The DAC’s in the processor are transparent and using separate amps in a small room (less than 200m) is perfect 👌🏽 There are no improvements to be had by doing what you suggest. DAC are transparent these days, you won’t show any measurements that prove you hear any improvement. You can’t get better than transparent. That’s why it didn’t catch on 20 years ago.
I couldn't agree more about this. I've always wanted a modern surround processor (with Atmos and DTS-X decoding) which can output the raw *digital* audio channels.
But I'm almost certain there is a very good reason they don't do this on most commercial receivers...
You mentioned in the vid about it "not breaking DMCA / HDCP" to have digital outputs, and that the Oppo Blu-Ray player is one of the few you've ever seen with digital outputs for all channels.
It's precisely that - AFAIK, part of the normal licensing for the modern lossless Dolby and DTS formats is that the manufacturers aren't allowed to output the decoded digital channels directly. (unless they pay a hell of a lot more for the licensing, which is what I think Oppo might have done).
I don't know 100% if that's the case, but I have a strong feeling that's the reason.
Hollywood, and the HDMI "forum" absolutely want to minimize access to the bit-perfect digital signals that get decoded off a Blu Ray disk. And the same for most of the audio on streaming services.
Which is kinda silly, considering it's not too hard to do bit-perfect rips of Blu Ray disks (including 4K UHD disks), and even streaming services using a PC anyway.
But yeah, as far as most commercial AV receivers and processors go, I think that's the main reason they don't have digital outputs on them.
There's also no software decoder for the object-based formats like Atmos nor DTS-X yet, AFAIK.
EDIT: I think there *might* be decoding for some of the object-based formats on the latest version of PowerDVD, or something like that. But I found it nearly impossible to find that for Atmos, unless it was the stripped-down gaming version of Atmos.
Not unless you spend many thousands on the full Dolby or DTS software suites for doing the encoding/decoding, which often involves NDAs and other stuff. I don't even know for sure if their own software allows outputting the raw digital signals for each channel, vs just previewing it via HDMI/HDCP.
This is why I'm taking a different approach - I've designed my own PCB with a Cirrus DSP chip, FPGA (for signal routing etc.), and an Analog Devices DSP for bass management / room correction.
That takes the 4-bit I2S stream from the HDMI board (which can pass through 4K video, and only extract the audio stream), decodes it (including TrueHD/Atmos, or DTS-MA/DTS-X), and spits out raw I2S streams for the DAC(s).
The other-other way of doing this is to just modify an existing commercial AV receiver or processor with the digital outputs.
It's not too hard to do (I added SPDIF output to a satellite receiver around 2001). But obviously it would require some soldering, to tap off the I2S outputs from the DSP chip, then convert to SPDIF/AES.
I was just watching your vid on when you ditched the 30ft analog cables in your setup, and was blown away by the quality of routing digital around the room and to the DACs.
The one big problem here is - volume control. (which you also mention in this vid.)
If the volume control is done in the digital realm, then you are severely limiting the number of bits, and therefore the dynamic range at lower volumes.
If you had SPDIF outputs from a surround decoder, you'd have to figure out the best way to do volume control for that, too. It would be far better to just have full-volume outputs from the decoder's digital outputs, then handle the volume control between the DACs and amps.
(many DACs have internal volume control in the DAC chip itself, which is done on the analog outputs. Some of them have pretty good specs, from what I've read.)
Oh, interesting tidbit...
On many of the AV receivers that decode say 7 channels (so 7.1, or 5.1.2), the DSP chip has extra I2S pins that are left totally disconnected / unused.
And quite often, it's the SAME firmware on the DSP that is used in the higher-end models which can decode say 11 channels or more.
It's just that the the main MCU sends different SPI commands which disable those extra output channels on the DSP chip.
So in theory, there are many models of "7 channel" AV receivers (from the likes of Denon and Onkyo) that could be modified to decode 9, 11, or maybe even 13 channels.
That would also require some custom boards and some soldering, but it looks doable. At least on the receivers I've seen which use the very common Cirrus DSP chip.
Hai i am from India , i have the same openion about Atmos it's just bull shit with no audio in the height channel , i truly believe that auro 3 D has a better algorithm in it's auromatic upmixer which places sound right where are supposed to be , Atmos is a joke , Dolby Pro logic 2 had better algorithm and could place sounds in all the speakers , they claim that Atmos is a object based format while in reality it's just a channel based audio with fucked up algorithm
This rant is how new products/companies get created
Not really, cause it can't be made.
@@sebdhaese why can't it be made?
@@kennethschoen7796 Because there are only two companies that make dolby surround chips, panasonic and sony. And both of them have only one current day DAC chip that both decodes the HDCP protocol and converts to analogue in the same chip, so no way to get the digital signal out before the dac. Dolby would also never allow it.
I've been wanting this for YEARS !!!
How much are you willing to pay for this type of product ?
I'm in the middle of moving and i wanted to buy som klipsch speakers. Just think they're f***** beautiful. Now i'm seeing this video and you're so right. It's niche and i'm not even audiophile but i god damnit want this kind of solution because it's makes so much sence! I dont know what to do anymore, wanted to buy a denon reciever that fits my tv capabilities..... now i'm looking for strippet processors... oh god...
You need an electrical engineer to take that shit apart and somehow modify it to output the digital signal before it hits the internal dacs.
A practical way to design a processor/AVR with external DAC support would be to supply the Digital outputs for the channels in pairs and an analog input for each pair of channels. The DAC would convert the digital signal and send it back at line level and the processor/AVR can so the rest with the analog signal. That will allow users to control volume, delay, EQ, etc from the processor/AVR, this would also allow people to use different quality dacs for different channel. It would be simular to how the Pioneer RMX-500 is patched into a DJM-900NXS mixer board using the SEND/RECEIEVE. Doesn't seem expensive from a design/manufacturing standpoint, but yea they are not going to spend a penny on it if it doesn't sell more units.
i guess if you use all amps that have a 3.5mm plug for IR remote in/out that should fix the volume issue
A movie with a good soundtrack is arrival. One of my favorites.
Oblivion and Tron too, also, Whiplash.
Late to the party, but I was looking for a way to get 5.1 preamp outs to make a HT with Dayton audio KABD dsp/amps and the only thing I found is a Chinese decoder called Ayino HD915Pro for 150 bucks. It has 3 HDMI 2.0 inputs and one HDMI 2.0 output and all the preouts for the surround. It looks like it can process surround standards... Almost too good to be true but I'm willing to bet 150 buck on it.
This is a great point. I have never understood why surround sound decoders are so expensive and rare.
all I need is a 4k HDMI switcher with DTS-MA and DD decoder, with volume control and a good DAC (a plus would be XLR outs and a 4k upscaler )
I was just stomping around the house having the same rant. That rant led me here.
How much are you willing to pay for this type of product ?
You already have what you want. Both those boxes on your table have it. You just need to strip away the extra bits. Maybe buy a cheaper 2nd hand surround processor to experiment on?
Just looking at that Emotive it's clear which bits are the decoder and which are the DAC.
36:20 Yes, the analogy to on-board laptop sound is perfect.
The Expanse!!! Hell yes!!! This seasons production is notably better. Big money on those effects!
My 7.2.4 set up I am moving to a few 4channel QSC CX Amps and I looking at processors now. Interesting take. My biggest grip with processors is changing formats. I have outdated my reviewers way to fast.
And that theater should be a full JBL 5 series with biamp'd fronts with active Xovers!!!
FYI JBL 530s on sale again today.. under 300 /pair. Bought 4 for my atmos/surrounds, 150 bucks each for decent surrounds...
The JBL 530s are sold out as of 10:00am EST - i just checked :(
@@morris7025 opps.. I ordered 4. That's crazy. I have a pair of the 580s I got a week ago and so far loving them. I have the bug to upgrade to the 590s for my fronts still. The base out of this dual 6.5" set up is insane, but it sucks my current done x4000 dry. You can tell they are asking for more power.... Oh the decisions...
but unless I see that sale come back..I did want the 570s more than the 530s, but at 150 each they devistate my SVS prime elevations and I am going to have the JBLs do the theater room kit. And move my SVS kit upstairs to the living room.
The price to performance on these JBLs on sale is just stupid.
Not in EU :/
THE UAD APOLLO X6 is the thing you are looking for. Highest DA conversion and Surround compatible.
He's not looking for the converters, he wants the surround decoding.
He'd also want the Apollo x8 cause he's doing 7.1.. though Id go Focusrite Red instead. No tech/money wasted on plug in dsp. and its dante enabled for ethernet connectivity.. When I set up my atmos mix suite that's the way I'm going.
@@drdelewded that's an interesting answer. didn't know focusrite offers a surround option.
@@AlexisGitarre yes. They just introduced a multi source (up to 7.1.2) monitor controller that works through Dante. With the Red 16Line you can monitor an Dolby atmos analog mix.
Look up the rednet R1
So, is there a surround processor that could be modified? If the 8 discrete channels are routed to mediocre but discrete DACs (as in separate ICs) then someone could turn modfying some suitable device into a profitable business. In the age of DVD players this already was done with regard to region unlocking. I too find it absolutely ridiculous that you have to buy another AV-receiver every few years, when all you needed to update was the algorithms to decode the newer audio formats.
Datasat RS20I
. but It has those weird DB25M connectors which I've never heard of and never seen a DAC have that. Maybe DB25M to USB adapters?
For reference, the RMC-1, RMC-1L, and XMC-2 all use the AKM4490 DAC. Its a little older at this point but it still sounds pretty amazing.
He should just buy an XMC.
I saw the title and immediately gave the video a thumbs up. This shit is insane.
thank you, thank you, thank you, take the hdmi and send it to an exodus multi-channel DAC or whatever DACs you want. What happened to the $500 emotiva processor ($2k - $5k)?
Is there any reason you couldn't mod a home theater receiver to take the LVDS or CMOS level signals going into the internal DAC out to an external DAC via I2S?
I swear my head starts to hurt when you starts going through the HT setup, literally so fn complicated its ridiculous. This should be honestly way more streamlined, I think companies that already make the av receivers should just make a good DAC that can plug right in the receiver or shit if the audiophile community is this in-depth make it a hotswap item to place in the actual receiver, hook up a few wires then done, you have a receiver that has a high-quality purchase separate DAC that goes to all channels. Tbh most HT enthusiasts I've seen just want to know their enjoying the movie experience as well as they can and dont want 4+ dacs/ amps, shit tons of wire, and a headache just to watch a movie, its more of I have too type of thing. It really should just be 2 boxes (av receiver with included dac and an external amp).
I think this is turning into a science experiment, that only the very few will try. But really, whos trying to spend thousands of dollars an god know how much time setting it up/ learning how to do just for a minor change in sound quality (IE 12% lol zeos)? Most, not all but most people just want to enjoy a movie with as close to a theater experience as possible without having to get a multi-thousand dollar rack of equipment/ and shit tons of wire/ amps/ dacs whatever. So while I do believe what you want should be out there, I would hope most companies are focusing on there main target audience and the first companies to start going more consumer focused plug and play is defiantly gonna get more buys and if they can make it actually good then it will take over the market.
Where so damn advanced I honestly dont know how all this shit cant fit on a regular media stand or how its not more streamlined plug and play. Right now until they figure out some way that is not unnecessarily complicated imma just run a Denon 3600h and a Emotiva XPA-11 because that alone should be amazing for 99% of people on a 7.2.2/4 HT system. Just gotta grab a mini-dsp for tuning and make sure the subs are working well together and not against each other then I should have an easy amazing HT/ stereo music living room set up.
Thanks for the video, it was fun to listen too and makes ya think, see ya in the next one. Sorry for the rant, ive recently been getting into my HT and its defiantly been a journey learning all about speakers/ subs/ amps/ dacs/ processors/ receivers/ acoustic treatments/ placement/ learning what plugs into where and what each piece can do. Looks like there always seems to be more and more to do and learn. I think Andrew Robinson on youtube said it best, you dont need the best equipment or to constantly be upgrading, as long as the set up sounds good to you that all that matters, some get carried away consistently comparing specs to other people and wondering if they should've gotten this or that when they should just enjoy what they have.
Now in your case its completely different, you're a damn mad man and I want to see you do crazy set ups and with as much experience as you have in this field its fun to hear you talk about different products so yeah get the most insane shit and see what happens, might as well since you get paid for it lol. If you read this whole thing yall are nuts because tbh I probably would've kept scrolling lol have a great day!
Great video, but I fear the market for this would be so small it would be a money losing proposition to produce it. What you're talking about here is a level of technical enthusiasm that only you and 5 other people in the world share.
To be honest all I really want is a decoder/processor that costs like $200, like the DACs in a $200 receiver are... fine. I don't see why they couldn't make up for the nicheness of the product by not having to provide amps. I really just want it for my backyard cinema where I'm using a big PA system with electrovoice eliminators to provide sound, not critical listening but you want it to sound good and loud AF. I might just bite the bullet and get the emotiva at some point but it's a hard sell for something that only gets used a half dozen times a year.
DAC chips are cheap. Lot of markup if Schiit can sell one in a case for $99. But we want better DACS and digital outputs for our own DACs. Sound United can give us a receiver without amps and DACs but they don't have the will. I use a Prozor DAC that costs $14.99 on Amazon to convert my Toslink to RCA on my Vizio TV. $29.99 if you want Bluetooth. Huge markup on DACs like Audioquest cables.
Monoprice hdmi audio extractor(H.A.E.). On amazon. $50. It gives a two channel, and optical output.
I would place the H.A.E. inline between the pc and the projector.
(Disclaimer I'm not certain surround is output via optical but for $50 it's worth a shot)
I would see if you can use the nano digi to take in the optical from the output of the H.A.E. and output 4 stereo coaxial to 4 separate stereo dacs of your choosing for a 7.1 channel setup.
Idea 2, if 7.1 isn't output from H.A.E. via optical, I have a late 00's model Yamaha htr-5990 with a toslink out. So I know that at one point there were manufacturers that were doing it, before dmca was finalized possibly..?
Third idea, the RME Digiface USB Portable Digital Audio Interface is a USB 2.0 24/192 4 in 4 out day, and spdif digital interface. The included software looks like a potential solution as well. Albeit a bit more of an investment at $500.. buuuuut, it does look intriguing. Sooooooooo in this case is run pc usb audio out to the Digiface via the included software, then from there optical spdif to 4 separate dacs
th-cam.com/video/pFkIVRIkLJk/w-d-xo.html
I was thinking about the DAC in my PC. Someone told me I needed to buy some external DAC for quality reasons. I tried to comparison my ASUS motherboard DAC with the DAC in the Aiyima T9 pro. I couldn't hear any differences.
I also wondered why couldn't the software synch up multiple external sound production devices on USB Optical, etc so I could use all external for surround instead of my 3.5mm 7.1 pc outputs.
I bet software would have a hard time keeping everything in sync.
This could also apply to a model where one company makes a set of multiple digital outputs. How do you account for any decoding latency of conversion on the many different devices you connect them to. The source has no control for synching it up. I bet it would be more cost effective to build the single source with better quality.
okay, just saying, but what you're looking for is a digital transcoder. There appears to be a few on the market, I can't find any from a major manufacturer. The ones I've seen so far (I've only been looking since I watched this video), are of dubious quality, but what does quality matter when everything is staying digital? regardless, if you google "surround transcoder", you'll get some amazon/ebay links to devices that, on the surface, appear to be digital audio extractors for HDMI or similar, however, several have the option to output (whether digital or analog) either 2ch, 5.1ch or passthru/bypass. The bypass gives the full compressed Dolby/DTS/whatever signal to a downstream audio device, but what's interesting is that some are showing that if you select 5.1/7.1 instead of bypass/passthru, they will actually _do the dolby decompression_ and send out LPCM digital 5.1/7.1 to the downstream (optical/coax) device. hook that up to a miniDSP nanoDIGI, split off the LPCM surround channels into the outputs for Front L/R, surround L/R, surround back L/R, and Center/SUB and voila. now you have what you need to route the audio to the various zones. IF THIS WORKS (had to be caps, this is a big if), then it solves the problem. Not gracefully mind you, but well enough to achieve the goal. I'll refrain from linking anything because I don't want to make the YT gods angry, and also, I don't know if any of this works, these are cheap products, and I have no idea if they work, or how well. None of them seem to have brands, and if they do have a brand, it's a brand I've never heard of before. - but since they're cheap and you need this, maybe pick one up and see if it does the job? maybe through amazon so you can return it if it's an utter failure? I love audiophile stuff, but I'm probably more surround leaning, I've never had reason to question my current home theatre setup, but this video has me thinking. Thanks Zeos.
Hi Zeos, The best surround sound Decoder I have is a modified Silicon Chip Surround Decoder PT.2 from the 1990’s. This is a Dolby Pro-Logic decoder that was purchased in kit form and which was modified and built with better Op Amps, power supply and attenuators by my good friend and audio engineer Joe Rasmussen of Custom Analogue in Sydney Australia.
It just uses Dolby and there is no atmos or thx but it sounds amazing hooked up to my custom made mono blocks in 5.1 surround sound setup. I also have a Onkyo TX-NR626 Receiver which is relatively good for what it is at its price point but, doesn’t come close to my custom setup.
Zeos, you know how chips know what to do right? Doesn't matter if it's a DaC or a CPU, they all have some things in common and one thing is " instructions " that are programmed into the chip itself to know how to do what it needs to do. In this programming there is "features" good example is MMX or SSE or 3dNow on CPU's, for DaC's it would be the sound signature. Basically it is pre equalized via code. This is why you think it sound's better, now AMP's that power the channels will color the sound and you know that, that's where the real quality lies. You can switch out OP-Amps, you just need to figure out what the current Op-amp is and find others that are in it's spec and it will work.
I have done this to an old Sony ( Original Xbox days ) and also do it on soundblaster audigy 1 and2 sound cards. Digi Key is your friend.
You can use Virtual Audio Cable and Audio Repeater to do this. Use the virtual cable to have (multiple) surround sound capable playback device(s) on Windows and then use the audio repeater to split the surround sound into multiple dacs. Use one virtual cable as the main source, route it to another virtual cable(s), and then route two channels of that into the desired sound device (dac). So for example, create 3 different virtual cable. VC1, VC2, VC3 (don't forget to set all of them as a surround device). Route all the VC1 surround channels to VC2 and VC3 (using two instances of audio repeater). From there, you can route say, Front Left and Front Right channels from VC2 to a dac, and then route Surround Left and Surround Right channel from VC3 to a different dac. Since VC2 and VC3 are duplicates of VC1 (the main source), its basically the same as splitting VC1 into multiple dacs (I tried directly splitting VC1 to multiple dacs but it doesn't work. Hence you need a VC2 and VC3, a virtual cable for each dac). And there you go, surround sound split into multiple dacs. I did this because I only have one decent stereo amp so I wanted to split (extract) the Front and Center channels to the stereo amp and let a cheap home theater receiver handle the rest of the channels.
ps.
i use virtual audio cable and audio repeater from muzychenko. you cant use the free version if you want to use multiple virtual audio cable tho
i dont think there is quality degradation as long as you keep the audio format (sample rate, bit depth etc) consistent across all virtual cable and devices but i never tested/checked
play around with the buffer and pre-fill settings on the audio repeater if the sound is 'glitchy'
A $100Schitt Modi DAC blew away my $2200 Marantz SR7013. No contest. Not even close. The DACs in receivers suck, or maybe it’s just the implementation wired into all the other circuitry as opposed to having a dedicated box handling it independent of the circuitry drawing the signal straight to the amp. I was so shocked but now I know. I want this too. I have since air figured this out last year. Now, I listen to more 2ch music in my home theatre because it sounds so much better.
If I were a hardware manufacturer looking for a new product to make, I'd look at Zeos' idea and the licensing quagmire it would unavoidably create and be like "nope".
There is another device that really needs to be produced which would be a combined headphone/dac amp, or even just a dac, with HDMI in and out like a receiver has. Example: Xbox series consoles and the ps5 only have hdmi out, which is fine for a receiver, but there is no way to connect them to your good quality headphone amp/dac. Why does nobody make one!!? Simple, HDMI in and HDMI out. Decode surround into 2 channel. Kind of along the same lines as this video, thought it might be relevant.
Its an obvious scam. Surround sound is a protocol invented by huge companies like Dolby, and I’ll bet theres a licensing issue that means they take their cut on devices sold, using their embedded technology. I’ve been researching surround sound for just two weeks, because I’m new to it, and wanted to see if it was possible to set up a system using powered monitors. I very quickly found that all roads lead to expensive AV receivers or processors? In a world so full of tech, how can we still be using those old systems, chock full of functions that you’ll never use? I kept searching for a device, that I invented in my imagination. A surround sound decoder. I almost gave up, then found cheap Chinese products on AliExpress. Thats when I realised its a licensing issue. They are making products that are breaking the law, but are obviously demanded by people who can see beyond the limited options available today. Once everything goes over to powered monitors, because the speaker control, and resultant sound quality is far superior, for much less price, they will be everywhere. Its the younger gamers that are driving it. They aren’t conditioned to the old conventions. Bring it on.👍
Amen to this, we need more processors on the market
😎
Its possible to buy one now if you sink $20k on one. Atmos, dts x, auro, Dirac and all digital 16 channel aes/ebu db25 breakout style outputs, its like the end all be all for home AV. Its made by a company called Datasat, model RS20I, Just looked it up a second ago theres one on sale on ebay used for $5500, your welcome 😄.
Would the Graham uhd 772 hdmi professor fit your Bill?
shop.grahams.co.uk/products/meridian-uhd722
Ive used it for a while now to run a schiit Yggdrasil and Hegel h590 for fronts, surrounds and rears. Works great!
Hell yes :) Movies, not so much, but still I want my PS5 sound to go to MY DAC, and from there to my Headphone Amp, not to a shitty reciver to deliver my sound :) Sound Processor with no dac + i2s, and optical its a go in my mind :)
All we need is someone to figure out how to hack one of those cheap HDMI audio extractor boxes, so that they don't downmix to stereo but instead let you select a pair of channels from the uncompressed multi-channel source coming from a home theatre PC.
Hook 4 of those up to a 4x HDMI splitter and then run your cables to the DAC's. After that I probably see this going into a preamp for centralized volume control + corrections and then from there to the individual amps.
YES YES YES! Been wanting this for so long!
I need the opinions of people who own a Sennheiser GSX 1000/1200. I am looking for another dac/amp on my desk with even better audio fidelity and better ability to drive. Give me suggestions.
Edifier products r shit. My speakers r1700bts and g4 te r fucking broken straight from package. speakers- right plays more bass and distorts too much. headphones - right speaker plays much louder than left. they didnt even gave me any discounts or changed them. i dont recomend buying from them any thing
Or they could start using amp and power supply chips from 21st century that are not gigantic expensive power hogs… Of course, there is no user benefit from these proprietary formats, designed to vendor-lock, anyway. They are not for your convenience.
Oppo 105? Oppo 205? Cambridge 752? They use better DACs at least. Although I appreciate the setup he wants.
The Oppo is probably Oppo udp-93 or Oppo udp-103 with Vanity 93 or 103 modules from 2013.
Seen the Monoprice HTP-1 16? Not exactly what your looking for. But it had me at XLR out's
The Tascam PA-R200 has the TI Burr-Brown 192 kHz/24-Bit DACs (PCM1690).
I could be wrong but I believe it is illegal to output a decoded digital signal based on Dolby’s rules or copy protection or something. I would buy this product if it could be made.
Short version : Meridian HDMI 621 Processor.... you're welcome.
Zeros: ... And that's the end of this video
*GOES ON FOR ANOTHER 12 MINUTES*
Could you tap into the digital signal at the input pin of the processors internal DAC and wire that signal to a coaxial connector? Or did I just over simplify it?
I thought the Emotiva RMC-1/RMC-1L had mono DACS for each channel, but I could be wrong.
I think they are 2 ch DACs, but are differential balanced so both channels of the DAC are used in mono output. One DAC per balanced output.
As a content producer, this is a huge problem in the industry. Up to 7.1, it's fine as you get get that from the computer going to your audio interface for streaming or playing Blu Rays. For Dolby Atmos, the only way to get that into your system digitally is with a $6k JBL Synthesis box. The majority of studios just use preamp outs on a receiver to then go into their rigs which means extra DA and AD stages.
With my RME interfaces I have no problem playing 7.1 content from my computer. I use 4 digital outs to go to my speakers. Blu rays and Netflix plus all of the work I do. I just can't use it for Disney Plus, Apple, or Amazon since those don't have Windows apps. I can get my smart TV into my system for those but that requires the extra stages of conversion unless I get a cheap Dolby decoder. For Atmos, right now I have no way of playing any content other than the work I do out of Nuendo.
PARASOUND Step UP and Make the Surround Processor to go with the Amps!
if only we could connect multiple dacs to a computer via usb and configure them as a software defined surround that would solve so many problems.
The product you request would be better for using new, high-end powered speakers as an optional solution.
has anyone found this oppo blu ray? I checked their site and discontinued products and didnt find it. I think zeos was on shrooms.
I want a full dac and monoblock per speaker and subs idgaf and full towers except for maybe center channel and stereo 15 inch rhythmic servo subs this is the rant of a crazy person
Started looking for dac and got a 7.1 system use it for movies and tunes but finding somthing that woorks 🤯
Need audiophile grade wireless surround sound processor transmitter and separate receiver DAC modules.
I've been waiting for this kind of a dive into your home theater setup. I really enjoyed it :)
I'D BUY THAT! , with that being said, other commenters have already addressed the elephant in the room, DRM. As far as they,or they're lawyers are concerned, you might as well be asking to "BUTTRAPE" them, ..... don't think it's gonna happen. I'm along for the full ride, I'd LOVE it, ... shall we say, "skeptical", it will happen. .................
How much are you willing to pay for this type of product ?
Z your house is awesome. I need one Where are you located now. Did you have your house custom built?
Totally agree with you on this... Prevents you from having a listening and viewing room without duplicate systems.
How much are you willing to pay for this type of product ?
TLDR Oppo-UDP-205 has good enough DACs! I would buy your solution if it was produced. However, for now, I do something similar using an old receiver and am very happy with the result. I am still running my 20 year old original Denon 5800 receiver just as an amp and using the Oppo UDP-205 as the DAC and processor. The Oppo has reasonably good DACs. It has a separate 2-channel DAC section for stereo that sounds phenomenal which I have a streamer hooked up to and fed into the CD input. As an added bonus, it is possible to run the 5800 as a 5.1 system and use the 6th and 7th full power channels to bi-amp large towers on the FL & FR channels. You have level control on each section of the bi-amp so you could lower the level on the horns or tune your speakers as desired on the fly. I use this to add or remove a little brightness on the high end depending on the album. I have seen the 5800 go as cheep as a few hundred dollars used.
* Oppo UDP-205
You can still buy an Outlaw 975 but it's 1080p on E-Bay.
Zeos.. M8.... Its called Loopback... Software.... Only... Its on fucking Mac OS :( ........... BUT.... Its super easy to just install a Virtual machine iOS nowadays rather than going thrw the whole hackintosh shit..