The Overland: Why It Sucks And How To Improve It
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 มิ.ย. 2024
- The Overland is a passenger train, running twice weekly between Adelaide and Melbourne. Put plainly, it sucks, and needs vast improvement. This video is about the train and how we improve it to be fit for the 21st century.
CREDITS
Credit for the shot used in the beginning of the video is to AM22 (th-cam.com/channels/GG3.html..., check them out - ยานยนต์และพาหนะ
This is an excellent presentation with well thought out comparisons. Many people don't like to fly and don't have a driver's licence which leaves rail travel the only option. The cost of this service removes that option. Journey Beyond are a luxury tourist product provider and have no interest in providing a commuter service. I think the Victorian and South Australian Governments should share the cost of providing this service as a commuter service available and affordable for everyone. Yes, you should be proud of this video and thank you for taking the time and effort to produce it for us.
commuter service? at least do once a day like amtrak so you can at least use it as a night train, but they need to work on fares
Great video, just a quick note on town names at 1:49. Nhill is pronounced "nil" and Stawell is pronounced like "stall"
Lol, right? N-Hill XD
The Overland used to be a daily service which meant that it serviced a lot of the main country towns en route. You haven't really touched on the service to intermediate towns which it used to provide. The trip in daytime is boring and an overnight service negates the need to speed the train up, e.g. 9pm departure, 7.30am arrival =10 1/2 hours. The costs could also be reduced by having just a cafe/snack bar as most passengers will be asleep, instead of the current overstaffed gold class meals service. Red class passengers currently barely see or hear from the attendants (who also have a staff carriage to themselves). Maybe a second set could be made up from re-furbished and re-gauged surplus Vline N cars set up for reclining seating, etc. It's a far cry from when I was a travelling electrician on the Overland in the 1970's and we regularly ran with 17 or 18 carriages, including 10 sleepers, Club Car, Cafeteria car and First and economy sitters. It was a great train then!
Some of your info is inaccurate. For example, there is no Gold Class or 'overstaffed' meal service. There is Red Premium, which includes the meal service, and Red service which allows passengers to purchase food items from the buffet car at their leisure. Frequent announcements are made, inviting passengers to visit the buffet car. The staff do NOT have a carriage to themselves. Few, if any, of your arguments make any sense whatsoever.
@@jslasher1 As I don't regularly travel on the train (unlike yourself) my comments were based on a trip pre-covid travel restrictions. The arrangements are obviously different now - do you know how many are travelling on it these days? Is the staff/passenger arrangement more efficient now and do you consider running it so infrequently providing a service to the towns it passes through? Do you think the scenery is so good that it is better run in daylight than overnight? As taxpayers we are subsidising it or it wouldn't run at all! Let's hear your learned opinion.
@@cliffleigh7450 The service is a mess, but only because JBRE couldn't give a 'toss' about the train. If 'Chairman' Dan's Victorian government hadn't committed to subsidising the service for 3-years it would be dead as a brown snake on the Great Western Highway. I know most of the staff, and they are very dedicated to providing the best service possible. I think the train would better serve the public as a return night service, with sleepers [roomettes and twinettes] and 2 or 3 sit-up cars. The current cafe car is suitable, with all snacks, meals and drinks for purchase.
My family used to use the Overland 1980-1985 from Melbourne to Adel then head up to Wallaroo for Xmas holidays.
It was great then, sleeper cabins were great, the night trip was far better and the buffet car where my dad and my aunties used to get sloshed wss great.
I don't remember coach cars back then.
Back tgen it used to depart Spencer Street at 8.30pm and get into Adel stn at around 7.30am.
I used to love it when the train stopped at Murtoa at around midnight.
@@jslasher1 I would love to see it come back as a night train. Could we even possibly hope for the cars for it to built in the style of the older red and silver cars?
I think the Overland train is really underrated.Given how the Indian Pacific,Ghan and Southern Spirit trains' prices blow through the roof,the Overland is a perfect way to target a wider range of Aussies,who cannot afford the other Journey Beyond services.
While the points are overall great and definitely much better than the present service, I'm kind of skeptical with the rolling stock. The problem with maintaining a fleet of DMUs is that the ride quality is generally inferior to loco-hauled sets (due to diesel motors producing vibrations, which becomes more obvious on low-floor trains) and that maintenance is more tedious because it breaks down more regularly than loco-hauled trains.
Considering the nature that the service stops at very few stations which means having fast acceleration is overkill (unless The Overland will add more stops in the future), the best option might be to use a push-pull trainset instead. One end will have a streamlined locomotive/power car like the XPT/Diesel Tilt Train and the other end can have a similarly-shaped cab with a passenger cabin behind it all within the same car. This way, the trains get the superior comfort and modularity of a loco-hauled train and the additional capacity of a DMU. Another thing to note is that modern diesel locomotives for passenger trains can now run up to 200 km/h thanks to the HST, and Siemens is also making these for American railroads. Also, the intermediate coaches shall be newly built as well to fit with the overall style of the set.
Nonetheless, this is a great video overall.
So I feel you did a pretty good break down of this bar one real thing when it came to talking about the trains themselves. That is the amount and scale/size of the trains.
What I mean is that you suggested the Velocity trainsets favoured by Victoria and V-Line currently but didn't really say how they could be adapted to such a service.
So lets start with the amount of trainsets, at a minimum we'd need 4 trainsets, 2 set up for the daytime service and 2 set up for the night service. This allows use to have 2 trains a day in each direction, one during the day and one during the night. Over time as the service gains popularity and if the line becomes double tracked its entire length, undergoes some straightening and the removal of at grade crossings, this can be increased to provide greater frequency.
Next we have the compisition of the trains. The current Velcoity sets are 2, 3, or potentially 4 car, all of which are really too small for such an intercity train. At a minimum I'd say the train should be a minimum of 7 cars for both variants but preferably a 9 car version of the Velocity with the middle car being a cafe car would be the best I believe. In the day variant this provides room for ample seating, and also gives people a reason to move up and down the length of the train so that they aren't confined solely to their seat for the journey.
This depends obviously on whether it is possible to build a 7 or 9 car Velocity set but really as the technology itself isn't really changing, I see no reason why it should be a problem. It'd certainly be quicker to adapt the Velocity sets into such a consist rather than wait until 2025 or 2026 until a potential alternative becomes available.
It's either that or tell them to buy old Class 43s again and use the new Mk.5 coaches that the Caledonian Sleeper uses.
Apart from all that, I would have liked to have seen a summary of infrastructure changes you think might be needed to maintain the average speed needed to make the trip in 7 hours.
Sorry if this is all too much, but you've got most of the solution here, it just needs a little extra to create a complete package and then you can basically bombard all the politicians who'd need to come together to make such a thing happen with the video, and create a proper campaign to get it up and going. Such a thing could see an improved version of the Overland running within 3-4 years if there is enough political and general goodwill and force behind it.
Infrastructure for 7 hours:
All level crossings upgraded to bells lights and gates with axel detection
A few more and longer crossing loops to become a handful of passing lanes along the route to keep the ARTC happy
Some minor track refurbishments
Signalling being readjusted - TWPS is mandatory for >160km/h travel
Rollingstock capable of at least 160km/h and ideally able to tilt at least to speed up around the Adelaide Hills (any modern passenger loco or DMU will be able to do at least that if not up to 200kmh like the siemens charger in USA)
Intercity trains typically average around 75% of their maximum speed so 160>120
830km (length of the route) / 120km/h = 7 hours
Loco-hauled is superior comfort and efficiency to DMU for this kind of service, it could be built to also be able to be used on Queensland Rail's long distance services as well as a reinstate Vinelander service
At a rough cost guide you could probably do it for about a billion dollars - in the grand scheme of rail projects in Victoria it would be relatively cheap
I travelled on this in May 1987 both ways when it was a over-night train. I had a roomette. As I had a 1 month 1st class rail pass with Australian National I think I only paid $33/night extra for roomette. It was wide-guage back then. I must have travelled about 20,000 km by train Indian-Pacific,The Queenslander,The Alice (Sydney-Alice Springs),etc. I've travelled over 250,000 km by train since 1955 mostly here in Canada (50x on The Canadian & the UK in 1990).
The good old days!
Bring back the rail vouchers!
Interesting thoughts and history of the Overland - very much hoping something gets done with it.
Having traveled on the Overland train from Melbourne to Adelaide in Red Premium, the journey was great, seats were good, the onboard crew were great and the meals good. I do agree that the carriages do need to have an upgrade but retaining the train's character. I am not sure who owns the carriages.
The problem with the Overland is operated by a rail tour operator and is operating as a tourist train service hence the fares. That said, what you receive for a Red Premium Fare of A$275.00 (fully refundable) is cheaper than Virgin Australia Business fare of A$299.00 plus all of the hassles of traveling to/from airports, airport security, etc plus it is more relaxing and have has a low carbon foot print compared to flying.
Since the Overland is an orphan with Journey & Beyond, as it does not fit into the product style and not want by the SA state government, I do agree that V/line should operate the service as the current the Victorian State government is 'train friendly', as a premium limited stop 'scenic' train day light service with 6 return services and 1 day for train maintenance if there is only one 7 carriage train set available (including spare back up carriages).
With regards to fares, people must remember that the onboard crew are based in Adelaide and have to overnight in Melbourne resulting in high crewing costs.
One major thing I would add is to move its Adealide destination from the Keswick Terminal to Adealide Railway Station. I know that might be unfezable but you simply cannot have a commuter train end in such a nowhere location like the Keswick Terminal.
Incredible video man. Great information about The Overland. Looking forward to more videos. Keep it up!
Great video! Passenger rail in Australia reminds me a lot of Via Rail in Canada. A few thoughts from the Canadian perspective:
1. It seems like Canada and Australia suffer from the same problems: aging rolling stock and infrequent service. Via Rail's intercity stock used on its western routes were built in the 50s and no replacement is in sight. It seems like modern rolling stock would greatly benefit long-distance services and breathe new life into intercity rail. The new Venture sets + Charger locos bought by Amtrak and Via Rail would be a solid foundation for a new long-distance fleet, and could serve as an opportunity to add extra trips.
2. Re: night trains: I completely agree that the distance travelled by The Overland would be a great fit for night trains. I would love to see the resurgence of night trains outside of Europe as they're a lot more pleasant than driving or flying. Of course the daylight service with multiple units would be operated in parallel for extra capacity and choice, but sleeper trains really are the future of intercity transportation.
3. Australia sure has some gorgeous stations. Melbourne Southern Cross looks like the perfect place to start a journey such as The Overland. Unfortunately Canadian cities aren't so lucky and the station in my city was demolished in the 60s. All train services eventually went the way of the station and now a city the size of Adelaide has no intercity or regional rail. Australia has a definite leg-up in this regard.
Again, great video. Looking forward to the next one!
Dude 90% of Canada’s population lives in the Quebec City -Windsor corridor!!!!! How are you going to improve train services to areas with so few people and speed up service to 160 mph cheaply?
@@qjtvaddict hence that area will benefit the most out of any planned HSR introduction and should be prioritised
I did the Overland a few times on the overnight sleeper back in the last century. It was pretty rudimentary back then and seems to have gone further downhill since. Quite honestly, Australia would be a good target for quality high speed rail service but it will never happen while existing airlines and freight companies want to persist with their trucking and flying solutions. When I rule the world I would get Qantas, Toll, Fox, Scott, Watson and others to for a consortium to trunk freight between the capitals via state owned higher speed rail thus allowing for passenger services to have access to that infrastructure. This would also allow for development along the rail corridors (as has happened in most other western countries) and for commuters to decentralise. I could go on for hours with how it would work but shall finish here by saying, what city in its right mind sticks a train terminus away from its main station and city centre?
Omg this video really hit the spot good job man
Thanks for your work in assessing this train and making these suggestions. Maybe one day...
I travelled on the Overland in 1982 when it was still operating as an over night service.
A number of railyards between Adelaide and Melbourne caused the train to run at a crawl, and also jossle the carriages about which made sleep all but impossible, even in a first class sleeper.
The track in Victoria is pretty rough, thought we were going to derail a couple of times, it's also excruciatingly slow leaving Melbourne . Frequency is an issue , I don't always want to stay a week in Melbourne . However I went by bus one way last time, never again, that took 12 hours with just one driver, he was seriously fatigued by the end of the day. The train is flawed but I do enjoy using it over car , bus or plane.
Great video. You could substitute all of this in to the New Zealand context and apply it to our Northern Explorer service.
The Northerner Explorer services has been suspend until Jun 22 for new updated train service.
Two points.
Australian long distance passenger services have long been centred on Adelaide, the Overland, the Ghan, the Indian Pacific, that is why they built Keswick terminal there. Although I would like to have direct connection to the local services.
One major drawback to the current route is the extra distance incurred using the standard gauge line via Tottenham, Newport and North Geelong. This has the advantage of serving Geelong but makes Adelaide to Melbourne very slow. It doesn't attempt to compete on speed with motoring or flying. The service is aimed at people who specifically choose to go by rail. If you want a competitive service, you really need a new high speed Standard gauge line from Ararat to Melbourne. This could also be used by commuter and Victorian regional trains. Then you could have two trains a day or more between Adelaide and Melbourne.
15 probably
New rolling stock, operate twice daily (daylight and overnight), drop the price to a third of what it is now, and give it V/Line or someone else who can be bothered running the service properly, including servicing intermediate towns.
In addition to that, better track and an operating model called pulse scheduling where connecting services are timed to meet at interchanges, facilitating quick and easy connections.
As per the taco ad, "why not have both"? Keep the current twice weekly, or even reduced to once weekly, luxury tourist service by Journey Beyond, but also run a daily commuter service run by VLine using either loco example you provided. I'd personally love to take the new NSW train to Melbourne and then say a VLocity service to Adelaide. I've booked a sleeper XPT service to Melbourne to tick that off my bucket list, before sleeper services go away with the upcoming CAF DMUs. Sadly we live in a country where those in power seem to dislike passenger rail, and thus don't invest as much into it as they should.
The commentary style kinda resembles AmtrakGuy365, but in an Australianized context. But anyways thanks for the information!
incredible video, lots of information in this
Another good option for the replacement of the loco hauled Overland service would be some kind of Tilt train like in Queensland. This train could tilt a little bit in the curves and make it even faster than the Vlocity and the new regional fleet for NSW. I personnaly think this would be the best choice considered the success of both electric and diesel tilt trains in QLD and that the Tilt train holds the Australian speed record of 210km/h. Both electric and diesel tilt trains are fitted for long distance travel and could easily achieve the travel time of 7 hours or even less between Melbourne and Adelaide.
That's why I personnaly think this would be the best choice for replacing the current rollingstock on the Overland.
Agree with a lot of what you are saying, particularly with the running of the service being handed over to V/Line. I feel one of the biggest upgrades needed to this service is the addition of a standard gauge (dual gauge) track between Melbourne and Ararat via Ballarat. If you really want to cut travel times then this is essential, there is no need for this service to be running via Geelong and running a service via Ballarat is much quicker and more logical.
A Cheaper Option could be to Alter Timetables so the Melbourne to Ararat VLine Train can connect with the Overland
For the Overland, Great Southern, Ghan and Indian pacific, the locos that pull them aren’t owned by JBR. They’re owned by PN. So I don’t know if JBR could afford an entirely new rolling stock by the vic government does fund it so I dunno tbh.
Excellent analysis. One point I would add is the time consuming detour to Ararat via Geelong. This long and winding route passes through sparsely populated farm country and the train has to travel slowly over most of it. The more direct route from Melbourne would be via Ballarat but this would necessitate converting the line from broad gauge to dual gauge. Alternatively, gauge convertible rolling stock could be purchased. Talgo's gauge changing mechanism quickly changes the bogies from Iberian (broad) gauge to standard gauge (and vice versa) while the train is in motion.
I don't think dual gauge would happen as that would mean the broad gauge trains (i.e. the existing Ballarat & Ararat trains) would be limited to 80KM/h. I don't think it would be looked upon favorably as it would significantly increase journey times. Plus it is also all two track, so both tracks would need to be converted. Gauge-convertible trains are a possibility though, as would creating a third track (like the existing Geelong-Melbourne freight route).
Personally, I don't think it would be worth it. We are talking about a low-frequency intercity train. An extra hour or so saved probably won't be worth the cost and even if it was, it could probably be made up far more cheaply in other areas (like adding signals to level crossings to increase speed limits). A solution that could be viable though is to timetable it so that The Overland meets up with an existing VLine Ararat-Melbourne service, so people who want to save an hour or so can just change from one train to the other at Ararat.
Great video, loved your shout out to Rory Ding, in my opinion he is one of best travel youtubers around.
I once saw the Overland on my way home from Adelaide in 2019. It was running 2 hours late, so when we got to Horsham the train had already been behind us
Very interesting presentation. You have raised many good points in regards to this train.
I have recently travelled on the Overland in first class from Melbourne to Adelaide. It was a very enjoyable trip. The staff were excellent.
I agree with you that this train definitely needs upgrades.
They did have an economy option to travel on the train.
I also agree with your thoughts on the frequency of the service.
With all the hype about the climate change narrative.
I am surprised that there aren't more efforts made to improve the long distance trains in Australia.
As you mentioned, the Overland can be heaps better.
Overland started my train review videos, I love that service so much I did it twice. But I agree agree agree 💯 with what you said. Its so old and creaky! Getting on that train service is all about enjoying the journey and not the destination. So it really takes a special kind of mindset.
For a developed country like ours, rail travel is really very bad. Nothing beats the feeling of departing and arriving from and into city center railway stations.
Excellent video - interesting, informative, insightful, thanks for making it. I think the small Adelaide population is more of a factor here than acknowledged - there's not enough population in Adelaide (or desire to travel to Adelaide) to warrant investment - so the service suffers, making it less likely to be used by the people who actually would use it. I'd dearly love to see trains between all the capital cities flourish - but I doubt Adelaide to X-location would be a starting point, if it ever does happen. New subscriber here, great enjoyable content - thank you for the great channel!
If it was faster and more frequent it would get used
@@qjtvaddict I agree. But it's not. There's very little incentive for the vast investment required to make it turn just a little bit of profit. You wouldn't invest $10,000 of your money into a neglected slow and outdated car you own just so that you can drive there, when you can instead take a cheap bus or a fast plane right now. That's the problem here. There's no profit incentive due to Adelaide's low population, and the society incentive is being met (poorly) by existing road and plane services that are cheaper and faster. How long do you sink money into that neglected slow and outdated metaphorical car that's costing you more of your own personal money the longer you keep it running? You'd sell it or scrap it. I dearly wish this wasn't the case - I'd dearly love a flourishing train system again including this one. But if it were your personal money, you wouldn't do it. Same thing here.
I used to travel on the overland when they had sleeping cars a much bigger train very good service
Went on it last year, and enjoyed the trip. One weird thing was that the train took a long slow diversion to Geelong, then entered Melbourne through the industrial area by the bay. Surely there is a more direct route for the last 100km...
nice video, very intresting stuff
Excellent video,I travelled on the Overland when it ran at night,we have a similar problem with the price of the Northern Explorer which runs between Auckland and Wellington only 3 days a week aimed tourist s the train is really nice and flash but the price is very dear, we used to have trains all over N Zealand but now there only 3 services in New Zealand 1 of them only runs over summer. Many kiwis have been on any kind of passenger train out side of Auckland and Wellington the only 2 cities to have commuter trains, so your train services look very good from over here in New Zealand well done I have enjoyed watching
Yes it certainly needs improving. The last time I used the Overland was to go from Adelaide to Melbourne return & as it was a night trip back then I paid for a sleeper which included breakfast. It had a small cafeteria car on it, but it closed just out of Murray Bridge, as for breakfast, I got woken up at 5.00am & handed a tray with an orange flavoured drink, a cold croissant straight from the fridge & a wrapped piece of butter that seemed like it came straight out of the freezer as it was not really spreadable.
As for improving the line yes fast trains do make a difference a & cafeteria car that remains open all night that also serves warm croissants, drinks & tea or coffee for breakfast would be a great thing too.
As it also runs between 2 of the major AFL cities in Australia, imagine night trains with some carriages playing Foxtel AFL channels with games all night & when it arrived in Adelaide imagine the trip ending at the Adelaide Railway Station where supporters could alight the train & walk over the bridge to Adelaide Oval which makes me wonder if various State Tourism Bureaus actually look at ways to increase viable use of current assets.
Once upon a time a train used to run from Adelaide to Morgan on the River Murray & unfortunately the track was pulled up many years ago, but imagine if the track was still there where people could run in period trains to Morgan, transfer to large river boats that take you through to Mildura where the people transfer again onto a period train for the trip into Melbourne & I'm sure that would be a trip people would travel across the world to make, but hey, hindsight seems to be used much more than foresight when decisions are made to rip up the past.
By the way, well done as you've got a good channel going here & I subscribed to look over your past postings & I look forward to your future postings too...😀
Breakfast at 5am? Jesus, I'd abuse anyone who woke me up at that hour.
In the 1980s you got toast, jam or honey, fruit juice and tea or coffee.
But not at 5am, it was more like 7am
I mean it could theoretically be electrified with battery powered trains but that will take several decades to get good enough to get from Adelaide to Melbourne
Well done.
Australia’s railways are just like other railways across the world. With incredible locomotives and amazing scenery.
And nothing else?
I agree with your video. I am currently working on a "Suggestion" to the Governments of Victoria and South Australia for V/Line to operate The Overland using N Class Locomotives and refurbished N Class passenger cars. My "Suggestion" is at the time of writing, a work in progress. One thing I will be putting in my Suggestion is the possibility of an increase in service.
Great video of the train and yes I thought about the same topics too make it even longer for a night or a 2 day trip and the day service try and get v/line to take over it, It needs to be a frequent service during the day
This is a good summary. If any train needs to be updated in Australia it’s the Overland. I have seen old Overland carriages used in mixed car set in country Vic on tourist trains, so this means half the rolling stock was discarded. To get a good modern train Victoria and SA need to put in.People would use it if it was a quality train and not a stain and fart invested old boiler.
We need to start lobbying for a new train and this is a good start!!!!
A 10 and a half hour train trip between Melbourne and Adelaide is shorter then a 12+ hour drive between Sydney and Broken Hill witch blows out to 13 hours 20 when it comes to getting there by train
Unfortunately I just can’t see governments willing to invest this sort of money (many millions not just for the rolling stock but for the dozens of level crossing upgrades required, as well as substantial ongoing subsidies to reduce ticket prices) when the overwhelming philosophy from both the SA and federal governments is that this should be left to private industry and they have no interest in it. I’d love to see new rolling stock and improved frequencies on this service but I can’t see it happening. 😔
Go full China high viaducts
I agree with Vline operating the service and I think with the SA Government going in with the service and also with a service increase this means Bordertown, Tailem Bend, Murray Bridge, Mount Barker Can actually get daily rail service again! without the need for the SA government to develop a whole new rail company etc they would just need to pitch in for the rolling stock, some station refurbishment and some of the Overland branding and costs and BAM that is a part of regional SA serviced by rail once again!
Also This is a bonus for Victoria being able to Service the Wimmera Beyond Ararat as well again!
With something like a Vlocity train I would gladly take it over flying, sure the flights to Melbourne are short but the rooting around with the airports and especially getting from the airport and then in Melbourne I end up getting the skybus which gets me to Southern Cross Station anyway! I might as well train it!
Also one interesting thing to note would be if they actually dual gauged the track from Ararat to Melbourne instead of it going via Geelong? and how that would cut travel times.
Looks good
Interstate rail travel will never compete with air travel in Australia and that’s just a fact. Bus services are no faster than rail over long distance, I think you would find they are slower as the bus will serve small towns and is limited to 100km/h. With more Velocity units being put on the rails there are/will be N class loco’s that could be made available to run the Overland services- the N’s were built to be capable of doing this, N set carriages could be refurbished to make them suitable to do interstate services like putting hot water in the wash room and more comfortable seating and they could do a daily service each way. Rail between Melb & Syd works so I don’t see why it can’t work between Melb & Adl. Because the Overlander isn’t part of the V/Line network it isn’t included in their time table meaning people will either get the bus or will look for a flight.
The Overland really exists in that weird twilight zone. It's "sort of..." part of the luxury railcruise that JB wish it was, but realistically it's never going to have the instant recognition and prestige of the Indian Pacific or the Ghan. At the same time it's "sort of..." regional rail, like V/line or TransWA, except the frequency is useless and the prices are sky high. The end result is no one really wants to take responsibility for it.
Realistically, I think buying new rolling stock specifically to replace the current Overlander is kinda unlikely. It'd be a very small order (prob no more than two units) with consequent price issues. I think a politically and economically feasible option might be to remove the VIC subsidy to the Overlander, and co-operate with SA to jointly fund a V/line operated service on a daily roundtrip service using either existing equipment of some description. There's a few options for this.
Cascading and giving a deep refurb to some older V/line loco-hauled equipment, ideally N class. This would be simple and essentially free, as this kit is being displaced from service anyway, and is far newer the the Overlander stock.
Adding on a few orders to the existing VLocity builds. This would be the most modern and fresh and option, but also expensive.
Purchasing NSW XPT rolling stock as it's displaced by the new regional train. The XPT is 160km/h capable, and is a well regarded and very comfortable train. As they are pulled from service, V/line could get them for next to nothing and refurbish them for a high quality service. The best element of this is that the XPTs also have some sleeper stock, giving the option of running both a daytime service and an overnight sleeper, which would be a very attractive offering to travellers covering the whole route, as they could comfortably cover the whole journey in "dead" time overnight, have a proper sleep, shower in the morning and some breakfast, and arrive at their destination all ready to go.
At 12:00 you need to consider the gauge of the track. A Vlocity cannot operate on standard gauge.
The new ones can, they’re being built so they can travel to Albury
i think you did a good job here. as for railway crossings, people dont stop when the sign says stop. okay put gates there. people drive around gates. someone did that at a crossing near my place 3 weeks ago. result - death. okay put gates on both sides of the road. then people may get trapped inside the crossing. and then there are all the crossings that only a local farmer occasionally uses. the only way to avoid level crossing accidents is bridges, lots of bridges. so its best to start building bridges near other bridges so a train can keep to its top speed. and as you pointed out, it is speed that makes a train service successful. there is lots of international examples of that.
Grew up in Adelaide where railway crossings are normal throughout the entire city and suburbia. Moved to Sydney - was astonished to find not one railway crossing in all of the city or suburbia. Not one - it's all bridges and tunnels. Makes a massive difference to both transport. There's just so many problems in Adelaide's train network that make it an overscaled small-town style rather than a small-city style. The difference keeps the train system there held back and it's a real pity to see.
@@Nicontrast , sydney does have level crossings. they're all well hidden. 20 or 30 where melbourne had more than 200. perth has started getting rid of crossings now. and they're starting near my place.
@@Nicontrast Not to mention that the majority of Adelaide's network is diesel operated. Adelaide network is at least 25 years behind Sydney.
As someone who has been on a long(ish) rail journey on board a DMU, I think having a DMU on a route this long would be a less than ideal idea for NVH reasons, I think getting modern passenger locomotives and passenger cars based off designs used abroad would be a better idea for passenger comfort, as DMUs are louder and vibrate a lot more when compared to traditional locomotive hauled trains, and if you have an actual passenger locomotive they don’t have any speed advantages
I feel a good choice of train to base new trains for The Overland (at least for day running) off of would be the Siemens Charger and Venture based trainsets that Brightline operates and Amtrak and Via will be receiving in the next few years, though there is still the issue of even though these trains have a 200km/h maximum service speed this wouldn’t be possible in service as 115 is the maximum speed on any of the standard gauge track between Melbourne and Adelaide
If you want speed increases without having to upgrade hundreds of kilometers of track, the best option would be to get a gauge changing train from CAF or Talgo and run it along the broad gauge line from Melbourne to Ararat, which has maximum speeds of 160 and 130, though I don’t think either CAF or Talgo make anything diesel powered currently
Also, I think on a route of this length an overnight service would be perfect, and wouldn’t require any speed increases, so there would be no need to buy new passenger locomotives, and once again I think the best rolling stock for this would be from Amtrak, and specifically would be the Viewliner series of sleeping cars, which in my opinion is the best sleeping car design ever devised, and I would imagine CAF would still have the tooling to build considering they delivered the last Viewliner II in 2022
I’ve seen you’re Google reviews but I never knew you had a channel
All good points. But saying that the line will never be electrified may not be so. As fossil fuels become more expensive (and they surely will), it might become cost-effective to electrify most rail lines. That same fossil fuel price will also make flying more expensive. I think that (electrified) trains will become the preferred means of travel in the future.
EDIT: Lol u addressed this later in ur video thats what i get for not watching till the end. sorry
i think you're right on the money w this one. However I have another, erm lower budget suggestion for getting the overland up and running until new rolling stock can be delivered.
Make it an overnight, with a train departing from each city at night (preferably daily hey). its not really ideal for the in-between rural passengers, and this is why a daily DMU service would be preferable in the long term, but I think there is a real market for decent, relatively inexpensive overnight trains, and the Overland seems like the perfect distance for such a service pattern. From personal experience, going to bed in one city and waking up in another is a pretty solid way to get around, its certainly still pretty big over in eastern europe (however the ticket prices are very competitive with plane travel still and thats a big factor). Moreover, it seems to be regaining some of its lost popularity over in western europe as well.
If the operator is really strapped for cash, they could even use these heritage cars, but ideally youd wanna update the rolling stock. As you mentioned, Australia lacks dedicated passenger locos. Also, this hasn't gained much traction in Europe yet, but I think the individual berth capsule sleeper train introduced in China has great potential throughout the world as a better alternative to sharing a compartment with strangers. Look up the D311 for more info on that.
Step One: Convert suburban system to standard gauge so Motor Units can depart from Adelaide, instead of the basket case that is Keswick Station.
I have seen many people walk out of Keswick Terminal, look out over the rail yard and ask "Where are the hotels? This is North Tce. isn't it?"
Having travelled on The Overland when it was an overnight service & after when it was privatised (it was a pity the Federal Government decided to sell off Australian National - Canada, USA & many European countries have retained public rail networks & many have encouraged private operators so that the traveling public benefits from the competition). I fully agree that The Overland would be best if it was operated by V/Line since the SA government stopped providing a subsidy & so it would appear it is not interested in retaining this iconic train service. It has many faults as you have pointed out (old /dated carriages, very infrequent service with not many stops, expensive fares & a very long journey time), it does also have many positives (longest Australian interstate passenger service still in operation, potential to become both a tourist & intercity commuter train, could revert to DMU which will increase its speed potential & it could revert to a daily service between Adelaide & Melbourne. Journeys Beyond could offer an overnight tourist service with similar sleeping carriages as The Ghan etc and enable cars to be carried overnight as they do on The Ghan etc. In Europe, many train operators are increasing or commencing overnight trains (between countries & major cities) as they offer the advantage of arriving early the next day. The new DMU should go to the historic Adelaide Train Terminal as passengers prefer to be able to travel from/to the CBD & avoid taxis & traffic delays. Having travelled on AMTAK USA & VIA Rail Canada trains as well as European fast trains, it was refreshing to see money being spent on rail infrastructure & new train carriages etc. Not everyone wants to fly or even drive if a fast, convenient, value for money & comfortable alternative was provided.
I honestly think the overland should be canned and one of the V/line services be extended to Adelaide. I personally would love to see the Warrnambool line extended to Adelaide through Mount Gambier.
Agreed
You will get nothing with Nats & Libs as the local pollies....they advocate for transport and airline industry.....dont give a stuff about trains
N-Hill, (ouch) as a former resident of Nhill that hurt.
Well said. You look at a map, these cities are so close, it shouldn't take 10 and a half hours
A few omitted points. the bulk of the passenger loading is in Victoria and the SA goverment has no interest in the opeation of the train.
The Victorian funding allocated will be gone by the end 2022 and most likely redirected to a new Mildura daylight service utilising spare N sets and locos from the NorthEast Albury line as they become available following Velocity units being delivered.
The Mildura line is currently being upgraded as part of the revised Murray Basic Project and there is no plan to upgrade the many passive level crossings as the cost would be excessive. It should be noted that while remote power supply can be provided for fully activated crossing they do not work in isolation and are required to be linked to state wide monitoring system for fault management and othe operational requirements.
I'll do a double flip if the Mildura service ever eventuates. I doubt it ever will.
XPTs from NSW should become available fairly soon. They could be refurbished and put on the Overland for a few years, until more modern rolling stock can be ordered.
18:28 Spirit of QLD and Spirit of the Outback: Am I a joke to you?
If Victoria is subsidizing the service, then Victoria should decide which company gets the subsidy without South Australia consent. If Victoria wants the subsidy to go to V/Line instead of Journey Beyond, then so be it. V/Line will then be free to run a standard gauge Vlocity train on the route. That alone should cut travel time by 2 hours.
Perhaps they could use something like a standard gauge Diesel Tilt Train.
God I hope they improve the overland it is really not great right now
there are other lines without passenger traffic where there should. at least the overland train is still running. V/line has started operating passenger standard gauge trains on the Melbourne to Albury, so V/Line could operate the overland. good commentary.
While I do understand the background of the Overland and I agree with the points you're rightfully highlighted, I am not entirely convinced by your suggestions, especially regarding rolling stock and frequency.
DMUs are great for short and medium distances, but ask me to spend 8 hours with an engine roaring and vibrating under my seat, and I'll gladly pass the offer. While it is true that there's no currently available locomotive running at speeds higher than 115 km/h, it shouldn't be that much of a problem re-gearing existing locomotives for higher speeds or building new ones. Usually, the cost of a locomotive-hauled train is inferior to that of a DMU, at least on a per-seat base. On a locomotive-hauled train, moreover, you can add (or remove) coaches should there be enough demand, while DMUs can only be coupled on a set basis. With a 4-car DMU set, you either offer (say) 300 seats per train, or 600, which means that if you are carrying an average of (again, say) 450 passengers per train, you're literally wasting capacity, consuming unneeded fuel, and wearing your units.
Regarding frequency, and considering the route, there's the potential to run at least three pairs of daily trains and one pair of sleeper trains per day. One train per day isn't nearly enough to move people out of their cars or buses.
What about trainsets by Siemens or Stadler, such as those designed for Amtrak, or in the case of Stadler, Azerbaijan Rail?
Where did you get the footage at 18:56 from? I swear I've seen it before but not sure where
I have travelled on both the Brisbane Limited Express and the XPT and I prefer comfort over speed, even those the XPT is not much of a train that is fast
where did you get the AN ad from?
Can u do a video on queensland rail's regional rail
From 1986 till 1992 use to use the Overlander once twice a month. Can't believe they only have 5 carriages left. Back then it had 3 classes 2 stages of sit up and the highest had sleepers.
Is the line from Ballarat and Melbourne standard gauge, vline verlositer service? So the overland has to use the narrow va Gellong?
Does a moden train have to be made of steal? Can't it be made of composite materials,
If the train ran at 300kms an hour each city side is a commute. That would join the two cbds, and.the towns. Let's mention the other elephant, Keith, Mount Gambier, Warrnambool Geelong? There are other narratives at play because 30 years ago 80kms an hour worked?
It boils down to top down thinking.
How about 2 1/2 trips per day. Half trip being a midday all stopping service that doesn't leave the state.
Don't particularly like diesel multiple unit trains for long distance travel. The throbbing of the motors under the cars and vibration gets annoying after a while. It's much better to ride in loco hauled cars, or as in the XPT with power cars at each end. You're right that the present cars are clapped out. A twice a week service is a bit of a joke, but running it say daily won't produce a full multiplier effect. It is slow, but given the restrictions on level crossings etc would mean that even if faster trains were used they most likely would not be able to achieve top speed for much of the journey. Look at how the XPT used to travel really quite quickly between Wagga and Albury, but after an horrific level crossing accident which was no way the train's fault, was slowed down considerably afterward. The Adelaide to Melbourne journey is much like Amtrak running on freight lines in the USA where at least they have locos designed for passenger services, ours are designed for freight with low max speeds and relatively poor acceleration rates. They are hampered by limited passing loops on single tracks, and the slow but scenic journey through the Adelaide Hills doesn't help the schedule. When buses and even planes are cheaper, who is going to take the train instead when the journey is less than spectacular? Only a few die-hard enthusiasts or nostalgics and they're a tiny percentage of travellers. I've done it once and that was enough to satisfy my curiosity.
You covered the stops, but it should be pointed out that Bordertown, Nhill and Stawell are not really large towns. Given there is a VLine bus, maybe fewer stops could be made or have an express service which is 7 hour journey and an all stations service. Current service tries to do both.
Flight times between Melbourne and Adelaide are short and I feel the hours of traveling to the airport, security etc. should be weighed up against travel time to and from where you stay to the station. Keswick is not in the Adelaide CBD.
I have driven the Melbourne to Adelaide route several times and feel many people do this as they need a car at the destination. Adelaide’s attraction are an easy drive from the city.
what people fails to acknowledge with the car is it adds up depending on how often you do it to about 1600 km a year to the miles(if done once)if if one does it say five times a year 8000km closer to a car scheduled service. Pay for sightseeing tours to visit the attractions at either end,learn to use the local transport and think of how much time is saved by flying.I remembered as a kid the trips in the family car 1980/1981/1984/1985/1986/1987 and last one was 1989.8 hours due to my late fathers cheapness and sometimes having to pay for an overnight hotel in Mount Gambier or Ballarat.You leave home around 10am and don't get to the other end around 6PM TO 7PM.I flew twice in the eighties left Home 5pm and was at my Aunts house 9:30pm first time around and the second time around 8am from home and there by 12:45pm but had to go immediately to meet my school group in town that afternoon.I got the better comfort on Ansett versus what they went through on the Overland from memory on my school trip.As an adult now It's Qantas or Virgin for me no Trains.
we already have Vline buses invading Mount Gambier, so I wouldn't care, as a South Australian, I will allow the invasion... conditionally
if the line is underused then i dont see any reason not to try an go as fast as possible maybe even getting tilt carriges. and there are modern 125mph diesel locomotives than can be used before electrification comes.
and gauge change trains could be used in certain cases if dual gauge track isn't viable for whatever reason.
or you could go completely mental and by the the retired intercity 125 stock
Billions would be needed to fix the rail transport problems in this country with compulsory land acquisition by the government to pay for overpasses to eliminate level crossings ,possible more direct track rerouteing, track duplication by having up and down tracks as well as electrification to come within International greenhouse gas emitions agreements of the near future and new rolling stock. Once most of this being done there would be higher speed passenger and freight trains and a more frequent daily service and maybe less heavy road vehicles on the highways. Electric and Hydrogen cars are now on the roads and are becoming more common as well as the LPG & petrol dual fuel cars and petrol and electric hybrid cars which have been around for a few years to cut costs but soon the trucking industry will have to adapt to the newer more ecological technologies. There is no reason why we can't have a ecological high speed rail system that is more competitive than domestic airlines and buses and trucks between our major cities and towns like there is in Europe and Asia. Initial infrastructure costs maybe high but the benefits could be far more overall. Most rail corridors are reasonably wide in some areas for extra side by side track to be laid the big problem is the single winding track and tunnels through the Adelaide hills has to be duplicated or a whole new dual track route between Adelaide and the River Murray across the hills.
Rail in SA has gone backwards since the 1990s (since regional rail was removed)
10 points for guessing where border down is
You can travel anywhere in Victoria under $10 now
I tell ya one thing, I ain't paying for a train trip between Melbourne & Adelaide and having to sit up in coach class all day, fuck that. The only way I'd take the trwin is if they let me do it the way I did in 1999, sleeper cabin with a motorail service so I can take my car over one way.
You'd have to be an absolute fool to sit in a seat all day on a 12-14 hr trip. Fuck that!
I couldn't imagine that even if the overland were completely state owned or even more heavily substidised it would actually lower the price by much.
The fact that flying is still significantly cheaper and actually making significant money for airlines makes it hard to believe that any average person in the right mind would want to sit on a train for 10.5 hours rather then at most including getting to from the airport checking in etc being around 3 hours.
Plus for people between Adelaide and Melbourne most of which Drive that fact that it's faster to just drive (8 hours) and have your own vehicle to get around in when you have gotten to Melbourne/Adelaide is just to convenient for those that can.
The loss on route would be absolutely massive even if only running say once daily to the point of not being worth the effort because the benefits are just made redundent, the convenience of air travel in Australia is just so high.
This just seems to be the case for most intercity at least interstate intercity services as a whole throughout Australia with few exceptions.
I know for smaller towns along the way it could be very positive but it most likely wouldn't stop at enough of them to make enough of a benefit anyways.
also factor in the cost of flying today.I remembered some 33 years ago the then Ansett and Australian on short notice for a school student return charged $150 if under the age of 15.Adult fares $300 fast forward to Virgin and Qantas today and the figures are less.also more frequency.I would rather have a full day of I was to get say either a 9:40am or 10:15am flight with either over and then the rest for having a walk around town before sightseeing the next few days I would get into the city by about 1 to 2pm.coming home in order to beat the train can have me on either a 1:45pm or 3:40pm flight factoring travel time in either a shuttle bus or using Ryder to get to and from airports both ways.At the Adelaide end depending on where home is You can use Ryder or just get a J1 OR J2 bus and transfer connections in the city.It sure beats Keswick.
How about using refurbished XPTs?
They would reduce the age of the rolling stock by about half.
Would the Victorian Government be willing to purchase 40 year old trains?
Cool. Also Stawell is pronounced “stall”
How sad. Twice a week wow, vor me as an European unbelievable. Slow speed just because of the engine and not the rails seems no good argument for me. And I don’t start the discussion about diesel/electricity here. Thanks for this very elaborate film.
Australia is like a 3rd world country remember almost all former European colonies have abysmal train service
14:37 I certainly would.
How about the layout they have on the Spirit of Queensland?
They have sleeping pods for the higher cost area and lower tilt back seat for the lower cost area.
I did a sad laugh in response to "maybe even support from the federal government with funding". ahahaha. fuck. imagine if we had a federal govt that cared about... well anything, but infrastructure especially. 😭
You are mostly correct. I'd leave the f..k crudity out, however.
_laughs in 12x daily departures (that's covid reduced service) from jakarta to surabaya with fares being cheaper than flying_
jokes aside, i find it infuriating with how bad intercity/interstate train travel in australia is, considering how good urban rails are in many of the cities. and it's funny how the fast XPT runs on the 'bad' track while the slow Overland runs on the 'good' track. railway privatisation is and has always been a mistake. never privatise your railway, kids.
This is a train that neither Victoria or SA really wants to fund, particularly SA. SA have did everything they can over the last 20 years or more to get out of funding it and it been up to Victoria to keep the ball rolling. It is given no priority over freight and is indeed routed well out of the way so as not to interfere with freight. Hopefully it will always be powered by loco’s and not powered trainsets as this is not what long distance rail travel should ever be.🇦🇺
Don’t do V/Line… imagine a Vlocity to Adelaide 🙁
THEY SHOULD USE THE SAME RAIL UNITS THAT THE PROSPECTORS USES,
THEY ARE ALREADY IN SERVICE
"'the train takes 10 hours" well for me it was 14 because a tree fell on the train 😅
Trains are better than planes because they take you to the centre of the city. Except in Adelaide, that is!
Isnt Melbourne the largest Australian city by population? According to the World Population Review, and several other sources, as of 2021 Sydney has a population of 4,991,654 approx. whilst Melbourne has a population of 5,061,439 approx. Other than that, great video.
Sydney is still the largest, at 5.4 million
@@spdfatomicstructure idk where you got your stats from but im not talking greater sydney (which is what you probably got) im talking the city, and I checked multiple reliable sources that are of the most recent estimate
It is neck and neck at the moment... but Melbourne will be by the end of the decade.
I believe it depends on whether or not you include Central Coast as part of Sydney or not
Needs to run every day.
Using the bus or train is obsolete. Why not fly? The only reason not to fly between the cities is if you have a lot of cargo to move, in which you would hire a u haul or drive a car, not the bus or train.
People in between the cities dude
@@qjtvaddict precisely.even the quickest nonstop melbourne to horsham bus but then all stops to adelaide bus either way is a joke.just over 10 hours almost 11(The only advantage is the Central Bus Station across the road from Chinatown)of which buses stop within walking distance of it or you just get a ryder or any taxi home or to hotel depending on location in adelaide) and it's a night service.You can fly on say the earliest Qantas or Virgin services just after 7am get in around 8am get a J1 OR J2 BUS to town and through to hotel/home or get into smartcar or ryder book 48 hours in advance via an app if you don't mind getting up at like crazy o clock to get Ryder or a Skybus to the Melbourne Airport(from home or hotel)to leave around 4:30am to 5am to reach the airport by 5:30am -5:45am).I know if which one I would choose and thats not buses or trains(people even schools were doing that in the 80s and 90s)it's all about the plane now.