This is so much more than just a product review. IMO this is a beginner's guide/mythbusting video regarding a lot of the snake oil and confirmation bias on the most common myths in the hifi community. I love your videos for doing this, more people should talk about the myths/misconceptions regarding hifi gear as there is a LOT of them.
And Ladies & Gentleman - This is how one reviewer stands up to burst the myth and stop making a fool of ppl trying to tell only expensive amps are good. I am running Abyss 1266 & Susvara via Sparkos Aries and then ran it via a famous $4500 USD power amp . 0 diff in sound rather Aries had clearly better control over 1266 & Susvara than the power amp . This is one of your best Lachlan . Thanks for having the guts to say that you don’t need power amps to power 1266 & Susvara and even more importantly backing it up with sensible reasoning. My favourite TH-cam Audio review till date . Way to go mate !
One thing to consider in regards to power is that many headphones have a variable impedance especially dynamics, planars can have variances but they tend to be in the range 0.1-4ohms. Something like the focal clear can be advertised as having 60ohm impedance, but when measured shows a 342ohm peak at ~60hz. Bass takes more power on certain transducer types(and more importantly on specific implementations) and absolutely affects headphones just as much as loudspeakers. The clear is a freak and almost any other dynamic driver won't exhibit such extreme variation.
That is very true. Once we start talking about dynamic drivers things get very different. I'm planning a separate video on headphone and amp matching soon(ish)
Susvara owner. I describe them as the most boring headphone, not because they're bad, but because they're that good. There are no nasty surprises. I use mine alot more gaming, watching movies and series than listening to music. Not because they're lacking but because they make the audio visual experience far more real, than anything else I've heard. I often will hear a siren or bird chirping in the background of something I'm watching, thinking it's somewhere around me.
I've had some time with the Susvara's now and I can confirm they are incredible. Startlingly intimate and real, there's nothing between you and the artist. Other headphones for much cheaper achieve a similar intimacy and detail (21 LCD x) comes to mind, but the difference is the intimacy feels more processed and digital. Like you are listening to the flavor of the mics the music was recorded on as well as the music. You hear the gear.. Where with the Susvara's the gear falls away and there's nothing between you and the music. They are also detailed without ever being harsh or sibilant. They don't have as much bass as the He1000v2 or Arya's but both of those I found much more harsh and sibilant. If you like electronic and hip hop mainly I'd probably recommend a different headphone (LCD 4)(abyss 1266 Phil tc) or you are gonna need some pretty dramatic eq. But if you are into folk, singer songwriter, orchestral, movie scores, acoustic pop, or any music played on organic instruments with vocals.. these are the best headphones I've ever heard at those genres..
Another great review sir. As an owner of the Focal Utopia’s I’m always interested in how other TOTL headphones match up. I would like to see an in-depth discussion of sonic floor modulation and how it affects one’s perception of recorded music. Keep up the good work.
@@PassionforSound I too am a Utopia owner with the same curiosity. For me the downside of the Utopias is the weight at nearly 500 g. Do you think that the Susvara are easier to wear longer than Utopia without fatigue? Thanks!
I don't find either particularly difficult to wear, but I do think the Susvara spreads the load a little better on the head so it's probably a little more comfortable and I do reach for it more often than the Utopias.
Having compared the Susvara vs Empyrean extensively on a high-end chain (MScaler+DAVE+Solaris), I completely agree with you. The Susvaras are a clear cut above and beyond the Empyrean in terms of quality of reproduction, but the Empyrean wasn't any less enjoyable to listen to. And for certain genres like especially electronic music, the Empyreans are just more enjoyable overall.
I owned both and I can say with certainty both sets have unique character. Totally agreed, for me Susvara is technically superior but Empyrean has a really nice body and impact. I think you could get similar body and impact from Susvara with the right amp pairing maybe. I didn’t manage tho. Amping sets like Susvara is really hard because there’s no easy way to test different high class amps usually 🤔
Yeah, I think you'd need to add EQ to the Susvara as well to replicate the bass lift in its tuning. I imagine the Susvara would be a beast when setup like that.
@@PassionforSound actually I’ve got an idea for a series for you: “Susvara pairings”. Line up all the ideal amps you can and try to find ideal matches for say bass etc. That would be an invaluable resource for people who usually can’t test many amps. A good start would be the Flux Labs lineup: FA 10 vs FA 10 Pro vs Volot, some speaker amps, maybe some powerful tubes if you can get your hands on WA33 or something, finishing off with the likes of the Bakoon etc. if you can source it … heck, it could persuade me to get it again with the right pairing 🤔
Interesting idea, Kris. It's probably a bit too niche a video to make, but I will be keeping the Susvaras and can therefore discuss their performance with any amps I test from now on
Great review as always. My favourite part is always the comparisons when you discuss the tracks you used. So if I wanted to see something more in the hobby it would be discussions of the music by reliable reviewers such as you. Thanks
Thanks Robert! Glad you enjoyed the video and the recommendations. I'm in the process of curating a series of playlists of test tracks for my patrons (they have access to about 5-6 playlists at this point with a few tracks in each) so when that project is done I might be able to provide some discussion here about it. Thanks for the suggestion!
Thank you for addressing the planar power myth, I'm finally pulling the trigger on a pair of HE1Kse's and I was not sure if I need to upgrade from my current L30 Amp. I have been scouring online someone who addressed this matter. Thank you so muchh!
So glad I could help. You won't need more power than the L30 can provide, however, you'll find that the HE1ks can perform better with a higher quality amp. No need to upgrade immediately, but keep it in mind
@@PassionforSound Thank you for your reply kind sir. If you don't mind me asking: Do balanced and SE outputs make a difference to sound if the output power is the same? Like on the Topping A30 Pro
They actually can. There are two reasons for this: 1) if extra components have been added to make the connection of one output (i.e. a balanced amp circuit being adapted to produce a SE output) then the extra components can change the sound 2) the connectors themselves have different properties (e.g. conductivity, resistance, etc.) and can therefore alter the sound very slightly in some cases too
Driving low frequencies in headphones is actually the limiting factor in amplifiers. Assuming that the headphones have a flat impedance versus frequency response a 1 volt 100 Hz signal is going to require the same power as a 1 volt 1 kHz signal and also a 1 volt 10 kHz has signal. The thing with music is there's a lot more voltage produced at low frequencies than higher frequencies. That's just the nature of music. That's why amps can struggle with low frequencies when driving headphones. As long as the amplifier has the ability to quickly supply enough current and voltage then it won't be a limiting factor. Amplifiers can fall down when they can't supply the voltage and current quickly enough not to disrupt the waveform. This could be easily checked with a tone burst test.
In theory that's true because you're right about the majority of energy in music being at lower frequencies, but I don't think I've seen a modern amp from a reputable manufacturer that doesn't have the ability to supply sustained power to maintain 75-85dB listening levels with plenty of headroom remaining for occasional peaks.
@@PassionforSound Another issue here is that impedance and phase may not be static. For example, the Focal Clears spike all the way up to 340 ohm impedance at 80 Hz or so and the HD650s 500 ohms at 60 Hz, along with any associated phase changes. This can present challenges for amps that can't handle those types of dynamic voltage requirements, of which there may not be many, but where beefier amps don't struggle. Additionally, planars don't have that swing but that means that bass frequencies that are frequently boosted by users now require significantly more current at the lower impedance vs a dynamic with higher impedance in the bass range, and this can result in some amps struggling as well. Couple that with the low efficiency of headphones like the Susvara and HE6 and you get people saying they need massive power, which is perhaps a misrepresentation of why bigger amps may offer better performance but is not necessarily wrong on the whole.
Definitely the content I've covered here applies only to planars with their flat impedance. As for the boosting with EQ, that could definitely play a part. I'd like to think that the 20dB or so headroom that most of these amps have when producing up to 85-90dB should allow some wiggle room for EQ, but it depends on how extreme the EQing gets
This is why Susvara's need speaker amp power. The 83 impedence is measured at 1k, but that doesn't mean they hold their efficency across the range. At lower frequences the efficency is actually closer to 70 and throughout the range it fluctuates. While you can, technically, drive them on a Burson for example and get good sound, what you are missing is the lows really starts to fall apart and not be able to drive the Sus to it's capability. Will it sound good, yes, but are you leaving stuff on the table, yes. Now, this is where the difference between subjective and objectivity may come in. You may not care. Hell, I can put the Sus on my Looto PAW 6k DAP and it sound really good, Arya good, but not Susvara good. People that say you don't need a lot of power to drive Sus, haven't tried giving them much power than they need to see how much headroom they have. One thing is clear, as you move up in power, the better the Sus does. The AHB2 does so well because it is essectially an THX 789 at scale, so ultra clean power amplification at more than 2 watts per channel. So while you can drive them with less power as you scale up you'll notice that each time you hear the Sus do better, clean power is that reason.
Roger, you're posting misinformation. The impedance of the Susvara is about 60 ohms and doesn't vary significantly at any frequency. Hifinews measured it and here's what they found: "its impedance vs. frequency is practically constant - a minimum of 59.3ohm and a maximum of 59.4ohm - so the Susvara is essentially immune to frequency response modification caused by the finite source impedance of the partnering headphone amp" What this means is that the Susvara requires exactly the same current and voltage at ANY frequency between 20-20,000Hz. There is no demonstrable benefit in driving these with speaker amps. I've used amps considered to have too little power and amps that have comfortably more than required. In each case, at safe listening levels (e.g. 75-85dB), the listening experience is consistent with the quality of the amp and does not correlate to the amount of power available.
Really enjoy your reviews. In my humble opinion i think you have come a long way. Better, precise and informative without being boring. I would like to know more about comparison in regards to wires, wifi, Bluetooth, apple air and aptx comparisons. If that does effect the final signal. Ps plus I just dowloaded dts for headphones and dolby atmos for headphones on windows
Excellent thorough review as usual Lachlan. A long time after this review but a relevant development- open box Susvara sets are srarting to appear from authorized vendors in the $4000 range with full warranty and even money-back return policies- bringing the price more in line with the likes of Utopia so the comparison here is very apt (both are still aspirational but Sus is starting to become similarly aspirational)
Brilliant review, thanks Lachlan. Great content and explanations. I learned so much. The detailed headphone comparisons were worth their weight in gold! Keep up the great work.
Great review, I heard too many comments about speaker amp for the Susvara. I'm interesting to know more about estat amp, especially when Audeze came out with the CRBN
Recently tried Susvara with Hypsos + Oor ... finally heard some solid bass from Susvaras (after a few db sub bass shelf admittedly, but H+O has tones of headroom).
@Audio Imperfect most hi end sets have a "flat and reference" bass response, also it depends on expectations. I like bass to hit the harman 2013 so I need to add a bass shelf in most cases.
@Audio Imperfect indeed that's what Harman targets are all about. It's based on "consumer" preference in given year. Audiophile market is slightly different, a lot more diverse with a lot of people aiming at reference and maximum detail to get that "true" reproduction, however most people also like to have that fun, satisfying side of the hobby as well. I'm certainly mostly about fun, but at the same time I really enjoy the technicalities. Most sets that excel in technical aspects however aim for the flat reference bass ... and that's the whole problem or quest people go on to add more bass to these sets. I just use a bit of eq on a really powerful chain and job done, but you can use a tube amp with tubes that give a v shape boost for example ... but then your other sets will start to sound boomy ... so for me eq strikes a nice balance.
I agree that the Susvara would benefit from a slight lower bass lift, but for what it's worth, I also think over-adherence to target curves can rob the hobby of diversity of sound signatures. There are some wonderful sounding non-Harman products around too. (I know this wasn't a pro-Harman conversation - just sharing a related thought)
great review, as usual - thanks! since it may be driven by speaker amps it may be the ultimate tool for those of us with doesn't based systems to find out what speakers and room interaction are adding/substraction/changing from/about "the truth."
@@PassionforSound i got you point loud and clear. considering purchasing them was a tunning and evaluation tool for my speaker based system. top notch review. second to none in detail and insights into every aspect of the gear. and it seems that each new post is more thorough and insightful than preceding ones. following your every post! thanks again!!!!
Lachlan, let me remind you that I've really been grooving on your reviews. You have a vocabulary for music, and bridge technical, aesthetic, and emotional references in a way which instructs and clarifies. So, flattery over with, I want to suggest that "emotional engagement" is one criterion which can't be seen as a performance variable. That phrase is entirely personal, individual in nature - "subjective" if you don't mind that word. One could even say the association of the midrange with a mother's voice can correlate with either favoring or rejecting a fatter, warmer midrange on "emotional" grounds based on how comfy you were with Mom, vs finding the emotion in the clearer, more articulate reproduction of the what the artists conveyed to us. I found the Empyrean frustrating emotionally, because I could sense missing music, even though some tunes were warm and cozy and enjoyable. Is there something I may be missing about some shared standard for "engagement"? I'm not saying which midrange you like actually does reflect how you felt about Mom, I'm just saying that we have many, and subtle, reasons to associate a frequency range and a dynamic envelope with an emotional pleasure, and/or a sensual and aesthetic pleasure. How else could you frame "emotional engagement"? As a personal response to a midrange with a certain balance of embracing and informing? I compared two, very disparately priced, dynamic cans: Grado GS3000x vs Focal Utopia 2022. I was seriously pleased with the Utopias right off the bat - there was no peakiness at all, a great balance of a musically rich tonality with excellent resolution and fun slam, superb dynamic range and envelope. But the Grados to my surprise (and my favorite Grado were the GS3000e, before this), were nearly as rich, characteristically more assertive in the mid and upper mid....and while not as timbrally developed on acoustic instruments and voices as the Utopia '22, they were still greatly expressive and fun, and, in absolute terms, world-class. And 40% of the price. BTW - you're absolutely right about the sibilance reverb on Ben Fold's There Always Someone Cooler Than You. I shifted from Utopia 2022 to Susvara. through Holo May KTE DAC and either Bryston BHA-1 or Burson Soloist GT. The Bryston is an example of a nominally inadequately powered amp for the Susvara, but does a more than credible job in balanced mode, which quadruples the weighted power, with dual-mono design as I understand it - it doesn't quite have the effortless delivery of the ten-times more powerful Burson GT, but on my other headphones, I find the 10 year old Bryston to be a more refined, balanced amp than the excellent Burson. WIth both amps, the reverb on s-sounds using the Susvara, is very clear; on the Utopia '22 and the Elite, the reverb was inaudible. On the Abyss 1266TC it was moderately clear; and the Grado GS3000x, believe it or not, was almost as distinct as the Susvara. I find the
Glad you enjoy most of the content. As for the emotional engagement piece, I understand that challenge, but it's a relevant factor in my decision-making process about a headphone and it captures many intangibles. While it can't be defined and is completely subjective, my hope is that people who watch multiple reviews from me will begin to understand how I hear things and what makes a headphone enjoyable to me. That should help people who value the same things to work out what they will like and those who don't care about that aspect (or don't align with my tastes) can ignore that part. It's the same for people who don't care about soundstage. I still discuss it, but they can ignore it if tonality is what matters most to them. Hopefully that makes sense.
26:03 Sonoma m1 and Sonoma acoustic aperio deliver even better true to life sound from what I've heard . Please review these and the T+A Solitaire P with it's amp HA200 . That's a magnificent headphone amp combo aswell !
Hello Lachlan, Thank you making this review relevant to those that won’t be able to afford such a headphone. Can you please review the HE6SE sometime. I would like to learn more about class A amplifier.
Thank you Lachlan, you've cleared up the fact that I should be aiming for a not too revealing headphone while I have less than perfect source. At some point in the future I should acquire some extremely well recorded and produced high definition music. That's when I need to get very high definition revealing headphones a chord Dave and m scaler etc.
Glad I could help. For me, the reality is that music is about enjoyment and while a headphone like the Susvara is insanely good when driven by the right source chain and with great tracks, it's not ever going to satisfy my want for pure enjoyment of music across my whole library.
The power thing is still a bit confusing. My HE6se (slightly less sensitive than Susvara -- 82.5dB/mW) seem to sound better on $200 Emotiva A-100 speaker amp than $1K Soloist 3XP. Deeper bass and smoother highs on the A-100. (Though the 3XP wins in imaging and probably detail). But yeah as you said that may not be because of power but because the amps themselves sound different. But I'm still surprised that a speaker amp sounds better than a dedicated headphone amp 5 times the price.
I think you've hit the nail on the head with your description. The Susvara is a very neutral sounding headphone and you're hearing for yourself how much more resolving the Soloist is BUT, the less resolving and possibly thicker sounding A-100 is more enjoyable because it's adding some smoothness and richness to the sound. That's not the power though, it's the character of the amp. I expect you'd like the Susvara better from a Jotunheim 2 also.
Your review of the Susvara tackles the power requirement myth comprehensively. It’s something no other reviewer has done and your efforts should be applauded - I only pressed buy after I watched your analysis and realised I didn’t need a super expensive speaker amp.
This was possibly the best overview/review I’ve seen on TH-cam. Most other reviewers just parrot what we hear in so many other reviews. And knowing that you own and love the Empyrean, it seems that you’re approaching this review in an earnest way. As an owner of the Arya and late bloomer overall regarding Hifiman headphones (mostly based on quality control issues) I can say that you’ve nailed the sound and performance of the Susvara. I’ve spent time with the Susvara, Utopia, and the HE1000 and by now I’m quite familiar with Hifiman’s general house sound. For my tastes I think my next big move in a hp will most likely be the Utopia or the HE1000. I just didn’t like the full truth telling nature of the Susvara although it is technically outstanding. And for this, my wallet will thank me and my marriage will remain intact! Another great and educational video 👍🏻!
Glad I could be of help and also spare your wallet and marriage, Darth! I've got the new Aryas here now and after a few days of use they're really starting to impress me.
Really great review, I didn't expect to laugh 😀 I would like to learn about equalisers, the absolute basics of what they are, how you use them to vary the sound, adding more bass or the like and showing us some options of portable, if such exist or small desk versions to the full-size units and explaining the differences.
Great review, but re: the "myth" of needing more power to drive planars, it comes from the fact that planars require more CURRENT than dynamic drivers, particularly for controlling their low frequency response. For an easy illustration, plug Susvara into a OTL tube amp with moderate power, but low current. The bass, if it produces any, will be loose and distorted as if the driver can't quite do what it's supposed to. People generally miss the distinction between needing "high power" vs "high current".
Hi Chris, if you look at the current figures required, they're actually tiny. I had graphs prepared for that, but decided I'd already included maybe too much detail. OTL amps are definitely not well suited to driving something like the Susvara (nor are some transformer-coupled tube amps like the Mainline), but anything producing the required power at 60 ohms HAS to have sufficient current available - it's nearly impossible to achieve the power output without both voltage and current being sufficient. Those OTL amps you mention struggle because the high output impedance means they can't deliver power well into low impedance loads.
@@PassionforSound For planar headphones, the impedence is constant so your statement remains largely true. However, there are 2 issues at play. One, not all headphones have a constant impedence. In dynamic based headphones, you'll notice that the impedence isn't constsnt at all, hence your claim is false. Two, sensitivity matters and headphones like the he-6 and this headphone probably want more power than let's say, what an atom plus can produce with extra headroom. Also, just a note to the few people reading this, you'll probably want a low output impedence headphone amp for planars because this causes a large voltage drop thus potentially not bring loud enough for those kinds of headphones (voltage divider).
I would also like to add that yes, no one should listen to 114 dB SPL nominal, EVER but who is claiming this? One has to keep in mind that for high dynamic range (for transients) music where one listens to high levels, the power requirements at 105 dB and above actually do matter.
All true, A Fly. For the record, this review is referring only to planar magnetic power requirements where impedance is fixed. I did mention that VERY briefly in the video, but want to reiterate that hear. There's no doubt that sufficient headroom is required too. I used the example in the review that all of the amps cited could drive the Susvara comfortably at 90dB and still have >20dB of headroom remaining in most cases. I'm not saying that any headphone amp can drive them (the MT-601 for example that I mentioned in the video definitely cannot). But, the key point to consider here is that running out of power produces clipping, not reduced bass (or perhaps both if the bass frequencies are what clip). The results of clipping are audible distortion and therefore harshness, not a general lack of fullness in the sound as is usually claimed.
@@PassionforSound So you're saying that with an amp like what's built into the Hugo TT2 is absolutely sufficient to get the most out of the headphones? A friend has Susvara + TT2 and while I can see that using a different amp might produce a better pairing, it wouldn't be from having more power available in and of itself... right?
Hi Lachlan! I have read so much review about the Susvara on the net but your review in my book is the most comprehensive of all, Thanks for that. I am planning to buy the Susvara by this coming fall and will also add the Lazuli Nirvana headphone cable on top of it. I will power this with my Simaudio 430HA ( Running my Hifiman he-1000 right now ) 8 watts at 50 Ohms load. My dac is still a 650d from sim audio that i also use as my cd player. I might leave comments once everything will be in place because we do not hear to much of the 430HA driving Susvara on the net. Later on.. i might add the Tambaqui Dac from Mola Mola. I will possibly have to drive to New Jersey ( USA ) but i don't mind. Good day and keep up your excellent work! A music lover...
Sounds like you have quite the system planned. I imagine it will sound brilliant! So glad I could help with your decisions around the Susvara. Enjoy the music and do drop back in and let me know about the combo with the 430HA when you have the Susvaras.
For sure i'll come back with some feedback. As soon as the Susvara will be fully broken in and including the nirvana cable, i will come back for comments. I must say i am very excited about discovering the sound and how everything will blend together. Just to let you know in advance that my main listening is about 70 % Classical music and 30% a blend of French and English Pop, Rock, Jazz. Speak to you in fall. Good day!! .
Good day Lachlan. Just commenting here on my second account. Thanks for your reviews. I got the Blessing 2 recently and find it quite a bit more detailed than the HD560S. I also ordered the Ananda but can't access it due to travel restrictions.
Sorry to hear about the Ananda! Glad to hear you're enjoying the Blessing 2. IEMs will often be more detailed that headphones, particularly at lower levels because the drivers are small and easy to move plus they're so close to your ear that there's no internal reflections of soundwaves, etc. 🙂
Great review, amplification quality is hugely important for this level of sets indeed. (Thank you for the exchange on my previous comment, decided to delete it to avoid misunderstandings :) ).
@@PassionforSound hah, no, it was just a disaster waiting to happen for people coming in hot without reading the whole conversation :) it’s a hot topic. Always good to talk to knowledgeable people and get more perspective 👌🍻
such a great product and killer review! If I didn't already have a 1266 Phi TC I'd be saving for a Sus. Susvara, 1266 Phi TC, LCD4, Utopia, Emp, Final D8k pro, Verite closed, HE-1, Shan-gr-la, SR009, SR007 are all on the mount rushmore of summit fi headphones.
I'm keen to try a couple of those others given the chance. Not sure I can afford to buy any more of them though having sold off so much gear to fund the Susvaras. In time perhaps...
For me, I love the Susvara on Tubes. Try it on an ampsandsound device. I got the Nautilus for the SUS. Also, for the Emperyn(sp) use case - fun and engaging, I chose the ZMF Verite Closed. Has a little more punch. I'm interested in trying the Elite when I get a chance to see how it would do.
Great review! I’d like to hear a review on how these hi end headphones sound through something like the chord Mojo or similar priced headphone dac/amp.
Hi Chris, thanks for the suggestion, but it's not really a setup I'd recommend. The top end gear will always be limited by driving it with lower end source products. That's not too say there's anything wrong with the Mojo - I have one and love it. My point is that you're much better off balancing your system and buying gear that's all in a comparable tier rather than putting all your money into a flagship headphone only to be underwhelmed when you can't hear what it's truly capable of
Passion you 100% nailed the 3 headphones on what they do in my opinion but I think when people say the Susvara’s need more power they think when they plug a $200 Schiit AMP they will not power on or something. Of course they do but will sound flat and can get treble spikes like you said in your review. I’ve tried the following my Susvara’s Violectric V281 powered them sounded okay but harsh treble, Topping A90 powered them but sounded flat with harsh treble, Emotive BassX headphone amp unleashed 50w okay sounding better then the others but still too much treble sparkle, Schiit Ragnarok did pretty good but still way too much treble harshness. Then I bought the HOLLY GRAIL headphone amp Woo Audio WA33 Elite with upgraded KR HP tubes and you complete perfect treble like the power of a solid state amp and the smoothness of a tube amp in one. It’s all about SYNERGY between sources. I keep seeing TH-camrs trying low end gear and saying it sucks because they are not pairing it correctly. This is like saying I have a Porsche GT3 RS but you didn’t have the money for tires so you put on some 2005 Toyota Corolla tires on and took it to the track in slid off the track saying this car sucks. You CANNOT test low-fi gear like this or you’ll hear it. I personally do not think this was in the recording it was the gear around the Susvara’s. But you are a really one of the BEST reviewers on TH-cam and nailed the 3 headphones that I own.
@@PassionforSound I highly recommend the Violectric V281 headphone AMP with the Meze Empyreans not because of the power more of the energy it gives on the treble of the Empyrean.
Killer review, love the in-depth-ed-ness. Not a headphone for my tastes (I don't want to know the truth) so my wallet is happy for now. Definitely enjoy the education though, I'm sure these make many an audiophile quite happy. ✌️
Glad you liked the video. With the amp, I think it could be a great amp for the Susvara, but not because of its power so much as how it's voiced/tuned and the use of tubes.
As usual, Lachlan, an impeccably produced video on an outstanding pair of headphones. I hope you''d agree that music - like any other art form - should be an emotional experience. In that respect the headphones that give you the greatest emotional experience should be the ones of choice. For that reason you would probably(like me) lean towards the Empyreans. At twice the price is the extra detail from the Susvaras sufficiently important to warrant the expenditure? I've listened to all the tracks you cite through my Empyreans. Ben Folds sounds crystal clear and the sibilants undistorted. There is a slight overall echo - you can hear it in the drums - but not on the vocals to my less than perfect ears. Ditto the "triangle" in The Living End track with its rather middy guitar sound but the vocals are clear. The Beck track sounds excellent. So is hearing these fine details absolutely necessary to the overall sound? Does it increase the emotional experience? Many thanks again
Hi Ross, so glad you liked the video! I do agree about the emotional aspects of the music being the most important and while I can get excited about the clarity from the Susvara, it doesn't stir the emotions like the Empyreans. There are times i will choose to reach for the Susvaras because I enjoy them to but they don't engage me in the music like the Empyreans.
Thanks Lachlan. As we speak the first reviews of Meze's new flagship "Elite" are appearing. I look forward to you getting your hands on a pair soon and hearing your opinion. A tilt at the Susvaras for a couple of grand less perhaps?
A great review as ever (and getting to this way late). So is this the end game for a headphone for classical? Seeing some open box versions in the 3K realm. Cheers.
It's definitely one of the very best options. Have you seen my Ultimate Guide to Flagship Headphones video? I ran through a heap of headphones across all different genres there.
A great review, a lot of technical information and I've never understood the sense that loudspeaker amps should be an advantage for high-end headphones. I would never think of running my Abyss PHI TC with a speaker amp. But I am of the opinion that it makes no sense to run an Abyss PHI TC or a Susvara with a $ 500 amp and that many people don't understand, because they read the spec sheet and think the amp has enough power.
@@PassionforSound Personally, I'm not a fan of the super expensive tube amplifiers. But for a Susvara or Abyss PHI TC you should add the price of the headphones for the Amp + DAC as a guideline.
Load of bullshit right here! High end active speakers sound miles better than any headphones on the market and none of them have anything close to 500 buck headamp quality in them. Key is the balance and headphones dont have any balance cause they have 1 speaker that handles everything and none single speaker is perfect. Headphones with big soundstage like Abyss or HD800S need tube amp to add distortion to soften the highs and to make mids fatter. Heard many of these high distortion tube amps and high distortion class a amps and never understand why they are so praised besides having a lot more coloration and softness than modern tech. I can see why stuff like that work when there are basically no good headphone that is excellent whitout eq. Eq and good source like clean usb or i2s and clean amp is all that you need... Abyss have shitty mids and it just need eq and not expensive amp to hide flaws.
@@20puskinas1992 it's okay, people usually tend to buy the wrong headphones or speakers to begin with and afterwards they think they need some miraculous combo (linear power supplies for router/switch/DAC and whatever amp) only to sweeten the wrong choice if transducers.
I'd like to see a comparison between iem and headphone sound. Like, what you get when going for a headphone vs iem or vice versa. It might be too broad of a topic, though I do want to experience in particular how the bass presentation in headphones and iems differ.
Thanks for a fascinating and comprehensive review! I'm still happy with my Empyrean and won't be upgrading to the Susvara. For a while, I had a HiFiMan Arya, which seems to be well-regarded, but I didn't like it at all. I would not be inclined to take a chance on another HiFiMan. Besides, I just ordered a new Dan Clark Stealth. The early reviews are very good.
Glad you liked it, Bobby! I'm also glad that I can fully endorse you keeping the Empyreans after I recommended them 😉 The new Aryas have just been launched with some taming of the treble apparently. I haven't heard the originals, but the new ones are sounding great. Very keen to hear your thoughts on the Stealth and I hope to try them for myself at some point.
@@PassionforSound tamed arya treble you say? I'd be fascinated to hear it or see some measurements... hopefully it doesn't tamp down the details too much
@@PassionforSound Apparently now there's a _third_ version of the Arya, this time with stealth magnets and some different measurements listed on the box. Kind of annoying how HiFiMan releases these stealth updates, leaving consumers to figure out what's going on and wondering which version they have. Although, the third version has slightly different box labeling, so it is easier to identify than versions 1 (what I have) and 2 (what I believe you have).
I bet money if you waterfall graph on the same amp from low to high gain on demanding headphones the harmonic changes to attack and decay speed and 2nd and beyond harmonics will show more than just a frequency graph. Looking in 2 dimensions like that is glossing over a lot of what makes some headphones great that don't necessarily graph well on a frequency chart but have harmonics that work well. I personally can say without a doubt I can hear occasional lack of resolving capabilities listening on my he6 and realize I have my amp in low gain (but normal listening volume) before I even have to check. I'll add that resolving capabilities have pretty noticeable effects on soundstage handling adding another hard to graph element and I suspect is why better amps that can keep their capacitors charged better can have such a drastic effect on resolution and soundstage handling. Reminds me of the burson super charger effect. Interesting video and I'd love to see a deeper dive because I know I'm not alone when it comes to being able to hear the difference with some of my harder to drive headphones like the he6 and 600 ohm T1.2 even on the same amp with different gain stages at the same listening volume.
I'll take a look at the waterfalls from my measurements and let you know. Keep in mind though that some amps do perform differently at different gain settings (depending on the implementation) and that it's very important to be sure you're 100% volume matched before drawing any conclusions.
Excellent review. I absolutely adore my Empyreans (as you do) as they just make all music so pleasant to listen to. You just forget about analysing the sound as even poor recordings sound great. The fact is, even with Roon and wonderful recordings available digitally nowadays we all still have CD Quality recordings that just aren't recorded well. The Empyreans really are superb all rounders that you can listen to all music.. all day long. I sold my Stellias because they were very unforgiving with the level of detail they retrieved. Give them a crappy recording and it just sounded "even more crap". Give them a good quality recording and they were superb but I felt I could only listen to superb recordings. Quite limiting. Occasionally I still think "this would sound incredible on those Stellias" when I come across a well recorded track. I have two headphone setups now for the Empyreans - Matrix Element X with Feliks Euphoria AE, and a Schiit Bifrost 2 with Schiit Jotunheim 2... I am very tempted to try these with that Feliks tube Amp as I didn't have that to test with the stellias. I know detail retrieval is also insane with these but the tube Amp should soften them I feel. Perhaps these will be more forgiving. The Empyreans wouldn't go anywhere of course. I will try and work out an audition with a local dealer. Might have to lie to the wife about the price..."Nah they weren't THAT expensive"..frankly the cost is silly really. Cheers again for a great review and also for explaining the power requirements. I think my equipment will easily drive them. I doubt my Dragonfly Cobalt will though 🙂
Hi Martijn, so glad you enjoyed the review and that you're loving your Empyreans. They really are great at making all music fun. I'm currently listening to the Meze Elites for an upcoming review and they're a bit like a halfway point between the Susvara and the Empyrean. More fun and smoother than the Susvara, but also more resolving and neutral than the Empys. It's definitely worth a listen to the Susvara, but it also might be worth trying the Elites if you can because they're a wonderful middle ground. Oh, and the Susvara work wonderfully with tube amps if they've got a modicum of power (i.e. more than the Cobalt 😉)
@@PassionforSound excellent thank you! Yes I was looking at the Elites as well. I look forward to hearing your comparison. Would be nice if they came in black though 😉
Nice review! Hope that you can consider doing a review on the 2nd TOTL of HiFiman; HE1000SE. Heard mixed review about these 2 headphones with a mix of supporters on either side claiming superiority over the other. Thanks!
Does this really the cable as the Ananda? I had listened to a review with Dr Fang where he states that they spend a lot of time trying to get the cables right. It would be interesting to hear the justification for these cables because they are just strange feeling. Nice review, I look forward to hearing these sometime.
I haven't checked if the materials are the same on the inside - they may well be different. The sheathing is definitely the same and feels pretty bad. The actual wires in the cable seem to be of very good quality (based on comparison with my aftermarket cables) so it's really only the ergonomics that I'm criticising and Dr Fang is talking about the metallurgy I think rather than the ergonomics
Finally someone being real about the Susvara and how power hungry they are.... which they are, indeedbut never felt like there was not enough power on tap on my iCan Pro Signature (as some say...)
Fantastic review as usual. As for my question, could you talk about the general tuning approach differences you've noticed between Summit-Fi devices like these and more "normal" headphones like a Sundara or an HD-6XX?
Thanks for the awesome review. I may have no money for bills, but I got good sound. Just joking. I got neither. Which amp do you recommend for these cans?
It's a bit like that, isn't it? I happily drive them from amps like the TT2, Sparkos Labs Aries, Burson Soloist and Elekit TU-8200R (using the speaker taps). I do believe they deserve high quality amplification though so some of the amps mentioned in the video aren't recommendations so much as examples
@@PassionforSound Thank you for your answer. I myself drive the HE-6SE v2's from a Jot 2. I'm quite happy with it, so I was wondering if the Sus would be a good match for it, too. Thanks for all the quality content! Keep 'em coming.
I listened to the Final D8000 :(, the DCA Expanse, :), then the empyrean, and i literally cried, then i moved to the Elites, yes, more details, but not the emotion, then the Utopia's, boring, and Finally i listened to the Susvara's and they BLEW ME AWAY !! they are on the level of what i experienced when i still had my IRS Beta speakers, so, from those i select the empyrean and the Susvara, and i find it a very difficult choice, between being blown away, or being moved to tears (and a huge difference in price, not just the headphones, but what is required to drive them), the shop was using a 30 000 dollar system (dcs lina dac, amp and streamer), that's far over my budget, i wonder what headphones will sound better in a system for a total price of 9000 dollars (6K dac amp for the empyrean, or a 3k dac + amp combo for the susvara's), i heard some people use speaker amps for the Susvara's, i have a Mark Levinson 23.5 Solid state amp, would i be able to use that with a DAC/Pre with the Susvara's ?
I can't comment on the amp you have, but what I would say is that you can get an excellent source for the Susvara with $3k such as the Burson Conductor 3GT or 3XGT. The only other comment is make is that the Susvaras are amazing technically, but I ended up selling mine (and I know others who've done the same) because they aren't as emotionally engaging on all tracks/source chains as other options like the Empyreans and Elites. Ultimately, only you can decide what's right for your tastes and I'm not trying to talk you out of the Susvara. It's just a matter of considering what you want to listen to day-in and day-out
I told you it’s Legendury 😍 The re-review will be up in the next eight weeks at my end to, post six months Good work bud You need to bring in, the ambient acoustic Mad24 at some point to, it will blow your fricking mind 🐅🐅🐅🐅
A few reasons, the chain change over will be one. And a long-term experience with these headphones I think might be interesting two others, they’ve been here for nearly 6 months now. Also in that intervening time I have had some incredible headphones and I EM on the table so there will be a lot more comparisons and info
I'm no expert on power levels, I always thought people exaggerated. I went to a headphone meetup and got a chance to hear the legendary Hifiman HE-6, the original no revisions. I thought my SMSL SP200 had enough power for anything. At high gain with all knobs maxed the HE-6 was barely listenable. It had bass and volume yes but I had absolutely no headroom. I did not try it out of RME ADI because it has less max power then the SP200. Since then I have been on the hunt for high power balanced solid state amp, but I haven't settled on one yet. Maybe I will pick up the new Schiit Midgard.
The HE-6SE is a very difficult headphone to drive. Technically though, the SP200 should have enough power. What it sounds like was happening was a lack of gain. It's hard to know exactly what the cause was, but maybe the DAC / source you were using has a lower output level and the SP200 just couldn't boost that sufficiently. Things get a bit tricky with gain and power because gain is actually the measure of loudness - power is just the ability to effectively drive the headphone as the gain increases (it's confusing, I know).
I was using the RME ADI-2 .I had the volume set at +7 / 0 db to start, then I kept turning the knob to the right till it maxed. I can't verify that it hit +19 like I know the RME ADI-2 can output +19. I was shocked at how quiet the HE-6 sounded out of the RME/SP200 setup@@PassionforSound
Any plans to review the Abyss 1266 PHI TC? Wondering how it compares to the Susvara. I am planning to buy a used pair soon and will be able to compare. Will be running them both off rear XLRs of the TT2.
@@PassionforSound Something to look forward to. Heard great things but heard its tonality is a little weird. Planning to buy a used pair under warranty soon so will let you know.
And just when the twins settle, this drops. Hahaha. Thanks for the awesome review as always! I should have sent you the Arya to review while I was on parental leave as they have been sitting idle for the last 6 weeks.
All good, mate! I have more than enough of your gear at the moment. Loving the DT1990s and looking forward to the review soon. Glad to hear the twins have settled.
I have not been a headphone guy - Just came across your channel as I am considering some lifestyle changes that would lead to dumping my floor standing speakers and going with an expensive headphone only system using something like the Felix or Woo Audio amps - I am very impressed with the sophistication and insight of your reviews - extremely well done, thank you - I do have a couple of questions. 1. What about positioning the headphone amp behind a line-stage preamp rather than just source -> amp -> headphone? Anything gained/lost? I ask because I have a lot of LPs and a sophisticated turntable/phono preamp setup I am looking to retain. 2. After watching scores of videos, seems like many commentators espouse RtR DACs for headphone listening like the Holo May - as the owner of an expensive delta sigma DAC, just wondering why that might be. Keep up your fantastic work?
So glad you're enjoying the channel! As for your questions: 1) adding a preamp can be both good and bad. On one hand, any additional connections and circuitry added to the signal path will likely reduce the absolute resolution of the system by a tiny amount. It's one of the reasons I prefer the TT2's direct headphone output rather than sending the signal to an external amp, even though some of the amps I have are world class. On the other hand, if you need a preamp for the phono stage then you can benefit from the sonic character of the preamp which can be a nice tradeoff if you enjoy what it brings to the sound. Another option is to choose a headphone amp with multiple inputs so you can run the preamp from the phono stage into one input and a direct feed from your DAC into another input 2) R2R DACs will generally throw larger soundstages than delta sigma DACs which tend to compress the depth of the soundstage. An exception to this is the Chord range of DACs which are delta sigma, but with custom filters to fix the soundstage depth issues (through very accurate timing of the reconstructed waveform). My challenge with some R2R DACs has been that they sometimes roll-off the treble and can sound a bit soft (as in lacking energy). Depending on the headphones and amp, that can be good or bad, but so far the only R2R DACs that I've really enjoyed have been the Holo May and the Caton RU6 dongle DAC. I should add that the reason the R2R can be preferable on headphones is that they naturally lack the sense of soundstage that speakers can bring because you get no room interactions or the crossfeed from the left and right channels to both ears Hope all that helps 🙂
The Sennheiser Orpheus HE1 is a headphone system at £51K, not just a headphone. It cannot be bought separately as the amplification circuitry is unique to the system. People compare it to HiFiMan’s Shangri La Sr headphone system at £40K but I regard the HE1 overall as the better system. The Shangri La Sr headphone can be bought separately at £15K though.
@@PassionforSound Yeah, never understood the concept of ''putting 1 whole watt'' in a Sennheiser hd650 with super high impedance to ''match the impedance hump'' in the bass to show it''s ''true power''. And for low OHM stuff, like a lot of hifiman planars, why put even more power than 200mw, if in my Equalizer APO i have headroom enough...? I put on my laptop and in amp and i do not perceive any difference (but... if you got a higher volume, the placebo effect comes like the headphone delivering more detail, but it's just volume).
Thank you for the great review! I own the Chord Hugo TT2 and am curious about your remarks about the Susvara and the TT2. Are you saying that the TT2 can not drive the Susvara well enough from the front outputs or was the output the same from the front and back with your adaptor? I was thinking of getting the Susvara with the TT2 being my main amp and DAC. Is that a good pairing then from your testing? Thank you for your excellent video reviews? You do a great and thorough job!
Hi Greg, the TT2 is a great match with the Susvara and there is no need to use the XLRs. The front output is plenty powerful enough for normal, safe listening levels (and even a decent bit above)
@@PassionforSound I also wanted to ask, how are the Susvara's for genres like rock and metal? Are they as good for those genres as they are for classical and jazz and if not what headphone would you recommend that is at the level of the Susvaras? Thank you!
I think it really depends on your listening preferences more than the genre. I like the Susvaras for anything and everything because they're very well balanced, but I still prefer a warmer headphone for absolute enjoyment and the new Meze Elite fits that spot beautifully. I have a review coming soon. In the meantime, how do you like your rock and metal to sound?
@@PassionforSound Thank you for your reply and I am greatly looking forward to your review of the Meze Elite. I have been eyeing that for a while! Do you think that would be a good compliment to the Susvara, budget depending, of course? The rock and metal sound is a good question. I like it big, detailed, and rich sounding if that makes sense. Would the Elite do that better than the Susvara? Thank you again! I really appreciate you time and help!
I don't know if you heard the Shangri-La Jr but I wonder which is the best between the Susvara and the Shangri-La Jr (especially regarding resolution and timbre)... Any opinion about that?
I need to take the entire section of the power delivery of this review and point out a few things. Current fluctuates amplifier to amplifier. When we talk about using a speaker amplifier for something like SUS, we’re not talking about how loud something is getting. The top in a 90 gets SUS to eardrum bleeding levels of loudness depending on how the track was normallised. We are talking about control and delivering the right amount of power simultaneously to different aspects of the driver and vibrations You will never get the lower end on a SUS on the top in a 90 as you do on a benchmark ahb2, at the same loudness volume of 70 dB. The numbers people concentrate on far too often, but there is a lot more going on here, including synergy.
Please be sure to research the real world needs of the Susvara before perpetuating the myth (I say this respectfully, but obviously can't convey tone through text). After publishing my review, I realised that a professional designer of amplifiers would be a good person to ask for expert input. His response when seeing the specs of the Susvara as well as the Hifi News measurement of the Susvara producing 91.5dB from a 1V tone, his response was that the Susvara needs a minimum of a clean 200mW of power available into 60 ohms to drive effectively and does not need gobs of current as the ongoing myth suggests. Keep in mind that even at 100dB output, the Susvara still only requires 51mW (1.75V and 29.2mA). Any amp that can comfortably produce >1000mW at 60 ohms will have so much current reserve available (even if that >1000mW is only a peak output) that current is not a deciding factor. You're 100% right that this is all about synergy. When people are recommending the AHB2, it's because it's voicing suits the Susvara. It's not about available power. I find the Elekit TU-8200R speaker taps sound amazing too, but that's because of the quality of the amp and the tubes I have installed in it because my other headphones all sound equally as good and the tonality of the amp is evident regardless of the headphone. I heard Golden Sound's comments from the Discord and he's theoretically right about the distortion levels, real power figures of the amps, etc. but we're not talking about driving these at >100dB (or at least I hope we're not). At safe and normal listening levels, there's just no argent I can find that supports the need for large power amps. If it's a preference, that's fine - it just shouldn't be communicated as a need IMO
@@PassionforSound in the re-review there will be extensive multitude of amplifier testing unlike the prior single amp narrative. And looking forward to discussing with you my findings for this specific head phone how power plays a role how control plays a role or if it’s just the calibre of amplifiers 🙂
Lachlan did you enjoy the Sus pairing with the Soloist 3XP? Did you notice a significant difference with the upgraded power supply from Burson in this combo?
I have used the Susvara a lot from the Soloist and it sounds good, but it's not my favourite pairing. I really like the Susvara either straight from the TT2 for maximum transparency and detail or from the TU-8200R speaker taps for maximum enjoyment. The Burson power supply makes a difference with any headphones I've tried - it's a nice improvement across the board
Wondering if the reason you fell in love with the empyrean is causing you to bump the mid bass in your voice for your videos. Seems to have a bit of boost either from eq or maybe room gain?
That's the room, Joseph. It's completely untreated (it's also my office for my paid work) and I've pulled out the worst reflections with EQ, but some still remain. (For the record, I don't use the Empyreans for any sound editing 🙂)
The Empys are veiled in comparison to the Susvara. They work as a warm alternative for bad recordings. They are also excellent with vocals, but still bow to the Susvara by a wide margin IMHO.
For vocals, you founded the Empyrean / Elite is more excitement and emotional than the Susvara or your prefer the more natural and pure vocals of the Susvara? Also, tube amp or solid state for the Susvara? because also some using speaker amps for them.
The Susvara are amazing, but across the board, I find the Elite to be more engaging. When paired with a high quality tube amp though, the Susvara can be outstanding (emotionally) and offers unmatched technicalities (although the tube amps may smooth these off slightly compared to a TOTL solid state). As for speaker amps, they are totally unnecessary and add extra bulk, cost and massive reduction in the usable volume range (you absolutely need a high quality pre-amp as well) so I don't recommend them.
@@PassionforSound Yeah but sometimes speaker amps will give more profit on the same price as some good tube amps, with a lot of more power. You tried some Abyss cans? And you think the Empyream is more engaging and warm than the Elite / LCD-4?
I think the Elite is better than the Empyrean for everything except bass lovers (where it's about quantity of bass). I haven't spent significant time with the Envy to comment on it.
Thank you so much for the explanation of power requirements for headphones. I had the Utopias and the EC ZDS, and I was wondering if the ZDS has the ability to drive the Susvara properly. I love the tube sound, but I’d want the grip and control over the planar to provide the best sound - what tube amps have you plugged the Susvara into? Good results?
Glad it was helpful! The ZDS should do fine with the Susvara I think unless you're pumping the EQ heavily (and even then should be fine). I've used the Susvara with the Bottlehead Mainline and my customised TU-8200R (using speaker taps due to very high output impedance via the HP out). The 8200R in particular sounds great with the Susvaras and is my favourite amp for them
As an Audioquest headphone lover, I wonder if I too would prefer the Meze Empyrean to the Utopia and Susvara. As far as amplifiers go, do you think the THX 789 has enough power to drive the Susvara?
I ran 1266 and Susvara from SMSL SP400 which is probably the best THX amp at the moment, it was ok but they weren’t even running at half capacity in terms of dynamics.
I think the Empyreans are probably closer to the AQ sound for sure. The Utopias might work too, but the bass isn't as fun as a NightOwl or NightHawk. I agree with Kris that the THX amps like 789 will stifle the performance of the Susvara. Technically, it has sufficient power (based on 6000mW at 32 ohms - no figure for 60 ohms) but the quality of the sound will hold back the headphones at this level.
@@PassionforSound I find Utopia really fun and punchy from the HA6a on highest impedance setting. I would take that pairing over the Empyrean, but I would take the Empyrean over Utopias on most other pairings. Both are great sets, can’t go wrong with either, but Utopia needs a paired amp to get the sound you want from them as it can range from clinical to bombastic and fun.
I'm looking at my gears, TT2, Qutest, Soloist, Bifrost, IE900, Verite... basically most stuff you highly recommended in you reviews or comments... So my first instinct when I saw this video is don't click on it 😆, but anyway I will click that like button first then think about if I should watch it... For what I hope to learn from your reviews, I think some basic audiophile knowledge would be great, something like what is a holographic soundstage, which frequency range represent which instrument or what frequency response curve imply good for vocals...
@@PassionforSound Now I finished watching this video, gladly my wallet is still safe :) Great review as always, you are the best audio reviewer on TH-cam IMO, your content is much better made and more informative than some other reviewers who have much more followers, I hope you keep on the great work and I believe one day you will become the most popular reviewer on TH-cam!
Lochlan you are wrong about susvara not needing more power. On my preamp I literally have to turn it up to the same level as my speakers to get to a good listening volume. All my other headphones I turn up far far lower.
I didn't say they don't need more power than other headphones. The point is that they don't need huge power amps. Headphone amps with anything more than 500mW at 60 ohms are plenty powerful enough for safe listening levels. Since producing this video, I've had this confirmed by a professional designer of headphone and speaker amps from a well-respected brand.
By the way, how do you have your speakers and Susvara setup in relation to the pre-amp? Does the pre-amp feed a separate headphone amp or Susvaras running off the power amp speaker taps?
@@PassionforSound Once again (and you do this time and time again) you neglect to mention that current is a factor. You have mentioned it at times but many times you love to say 'X mw is enough' and then you fail to mention current demands of harder to drive loads.
@@PassionforSound Try running an elekit tu8600 with hard to drive bookshelves... like ATCs. It will get plenty loud at 50% on the pot... but the sound quality will be a big step down from a much more powerful and high current SS amp. Is the elekit just an inferior design with inferior parts or is it the higher current + power satisfying the harder to drive load ?
You can't compare speakers and headphones. Speakers contain drivers of different sizes (it's physically harder to move a woofer than a tweeter). They also have variable impedance at different frequencies. Planar magnetic headphones don't work like that
Hmmm not sure. So you are debunking more power myth and replacing it with cable myth? Not sure, I have been running the Arya's for months out of the SE output of the TT2 and switched to the balanced rear XLRs ... difference is very obvious. Fuller sound, more bass, less fatiguing treble etc. I ordered an Benchmark AHB2 to see if 100W 8 ohms can make the Susvara's sing. I have a trial period so I will definitely be testing out your thoughts. Thanks.
@@PassionforSound apologies for budding into this convo. Thought I’d add some points. It’d be great if you could get the same cable material and everything you’re using your Sus with and make that an XLR adapter. That way, there is more consistency. I use my 1266 from the TT2 XLR ends. I spent almost a week or so without the XLRs when I first got the TT2, and I wasn’t enjoying the way I used to when I owned the HSA-1b amp (Ribbon output). I then received the adapter from Abyss, and that is the same cable material as my 1266 stock cable. The difference was noticeable and I’ve been happy. Additionally, I’ve heard people did some columns matching b/w the XLR outs and SE out. After that, they found no difference b/w the two outs. IIRC, Rob Watts was the one to suggest volume matching. I don’t know how to do it. Maybe you can illustrate that and give us your observations. :) P.S: I heard the Sus is an amazing pairing with Bakoon 13r if you can afford. I wanna get it, but not all of us are rich, hehe.
No problems, Brow Daw - jump on in! 🙂 I actually think I mentioned in the video that I subsequently got an identical cable from headphone to 6.3mm and to twin XLR and found no discernible difference in the sound quality once that was in place so it was definitely the cable causing the issue and it's sound wasn't better, just different and probably worse from a technical standpoint (resolution, timbral accuracy, etc.) I'd definitely love to try a Bakoon at some point. I have the Cayin iHA-6 here at the moment and it has current mode like the Bakoon, but it's not an improvement over the TT2 or TU-8200R because it's not at the same level as something like the Bakoon.
@@PassionforSound Oh wow, I completely missed the notification on your message. Yikes! But I understand now. Thanks for the explanation on the cable and amp. The Cayin iHA-6 is also good (from what I read), but is definitely not on the level of the others like you mentioned. If you get the chance, check out the Diana TC, 1266 TC, and LCD-5!
There looks to be a dip in the frequency response centred around 3 to 4 kHz. This is the inverse of the Harman target. Did you try boosting this area to see if it improved the sound?
No, I generally don't use EQ at all. It's also very possible that this is coming from the miniDSP EARs rig. In general, I don't believe in trying to adhere to target curves. I am a fan of most Harman target tuned gear so not against the approach, but I've heard so many good products that stray from it that I like to just enjoy each headphone for what it offers.
So… what’s the sweet spot (price/performance) amp or amp/dac to power the Susvara? Wa the TT2 with SE output enough? Or a dedicated amp and separate dac a better solution?
I find the TT2 to be great, but the Susvara does benefit from an amp with a little warmth to its sound so a powerful tube amp or a full bodied solid state amp is good. I've really enjoyed the Susvara with the Burson Soloist GT and Sparkos Labs Aries
I haven't looked up the specific power output of the Conductor, but it should do just fine. I spoke to an amp designer after I'd finished all of this review and he said that any amp with >250mW at 60 ohms would be plenty for the Susvara. The Conductor will be way ahead of that.
This is so much more than just a product review. IMO this is a beginner's guide/mythbusting video regarding a lot of the snake oil and confirmation bias on the most common myths in the hifi community. I love your videos for doing this, more people should talk about the myths/misconceptions regarding hifi gear as there is a LOT of them.
So glad you liked it / found it helpful. I'll continue to drop in info sections where relevant / helpful. Nice to know it's valuable
I loved your review thanks a lot.
Glad it was helpful! 🙂
And Ladies & Gentleman - This is how one reviewer stands up to burst the myth and stop making a fool of ppl trying to tell only expensive amps are good. I am running Abyss 1266 & Susvara via Sparkos Aries and then ran it via a famous $4500 USD power amp . 0 diff in sound rather Aries had clearly better control over 1266 & Susvara than the power amp .
This is one of your best Lachlan .
Thanks for having the guts to say that you don’t need power amps to power 1266 & Susvara and even more importantly backing it up with sensible reasoning.
My favourite TH-cam Audio review till date .
Way to go mate !
Thanks so much, Anu! Both for the support, but even more importantly for testing it for yourself and sharing your experiences.
One thing to consider in regards to power is that many headphones have a variable impedance especially dynamics, planars can have variances but they tend to be in the range 0.1-4ohms. Something like the focal clear can be advertised as having 60ohm impedance, but when measured shows a 342ohm peak at ~60hz. Bass takes more power on certain transducer types(and more importantly on specific implementations) and absolutely affects headphones just as much as loudspeakers. The clear is a freak and almost any other dynamic driver won't exhibit such extreme variation.
That is very true. Once we start talking about dynamic drivers things get very different. I'm planning a separate video on headphone and amp matching soon(ish)
Susvara owner. I describe them as the most boring headphone, not because they're bad, but because they're that good. There are no nasty surprises. I use mine alot more gaming, watching movies and series than listening to music. Not because they're lacking but because they make the audio visual experience far more real, than anything else I've heard. I often will hear a siren or bird chirping in the background of something I'm watching, thinking it's somewhere around me.
I completely agree with this. They're a fascinating headphone with their accuracy and transparency!
How do you drive them?
Thanks!
You're welcome!
What a great video to wake up to on a Sunday morning! This was such a good watch, Lachlan!
So glad you liked it!
I've had some time with the Susvara's now and I can confirm they are incredible. Startlingly intimate and real, there's nothing between you and the artist. Other headphones for much cheaper achieve a similar intimacy and detail (21 LCD x) comes to mind, but the difference is the intimacy feels more processed and digital. Like you are listening to the flavor of the mics the music was recorded on as well as the music. You hear the gear.. Where with the Susvara's the gear falls away and there's nothing between you and the music.
They are also detailed without ever being harsh or sibilant. They don't have as much bass as the He1000v2 or Arya's but both of those I found much more harsh and sibilant. If you like electronic and hip hop mainly I'd probably recommend a different headphone (LCD 4)(abyss 1266 Phil tc) or you are gonna need some pretty dramatic eq. But if you are into folk, singer songwriter, orchestral, movie scores, acoustic pop, or any music played on organic instruments with vocals.. these are the best headphones I've ever heard at those genres..
Thanks for sharing your experiences!
You need proper amplification to get her of her ass. ;)
Thank you so much for putting in the time and effort to make this amazing review. Much love from a fellow Victorian, cheers!
So glad you liked the review and congratulations for surviving the last couple of years in the lockdown state 😉
Lachlan, your channel is top of my long list of audio subscriptions. I really appreciate your hard work, candour and dedication. Thank you.
Thanks so much, Heath. And it's my pleasure. 🙂
Another great review sir. As an owner of the Focal Utopia’s I’m always interested in how other TOTL headphones match up. I would like to see an in-depth discussion of sonic floor modulation and how it affects one’s perception of recorded music. Keep up the good work.
Thanks Bruce. Glad you liked the review. The Utopias are still a wonderful headphone deserving of their TOTL status
@@PassionforSound I too am a Utopia owner with the same curiosity. For me the downside of the Utopias is the weight at nearly 500 g. Do you think that the Susvara are easier to wear longer than Utopia without fatigue? Thanks!
I don't find either particularly difficult to wear, but I do think the Susvara spreads the load a little better on the head so it's probably a little more comfortable and I do reach for it more often than the Utopias.
Having compared the Susvara vs Empyrean extensively on a high-end chain (MScaler+DAVE+Solaris), I completely agree with you. The Susvaras are a clear cut above and beyond the Empyrean in terms of quality of reproduction, but the Empyrean wasn't any less enjoyable to listen to. And for certain genres like especially electronic music, the Empyreans are just more enjoyable overall.
Glad to hear it's not just me! Thanks for sharing, J S!
I owned both and I can say with certainty both sets have unique character. Totally agreed, for me Susvara is technically superior but Empyrean has a really nice body and impact. I think you could get similar body and impact from Susvara with the right amp pairing maybe. I didn’t manage tho. Amping sets like Susvara is really hard because there’s no easy way to test different high class amps usually 🤔
Yeah, I think you'd need to add EQ to the Susvara as well to replicate the bass lift in its tuning. I imagine the Susvara would be a beast when setup like that.
@@PassionforSound actually I’ve got an idea for a series for you: “Susvara pairings”. Line up all the ideal amps you can and try to find ideal matches for say bass etc. That would be an invaluable resource for people who usually can’t test many amps. A good start would be the Flux Labs lineup: FA 10 vs FA 10 Pro vs Volot, some speaker amps, maybe some powerful tubes if you can get your hands on WA33 or something, finishing off with the likes of the Bakoon etc. if you can source it … heck, it could persuade me to get it again with the right pairing 🤔
Interesting idea, Kris. It's probably a bit too niche a video to make, but I will be keeping the Susvaras and can therefore discuss their performance with any amps I test from now on
Great review as always. My favourite part is always the comparisons when you discuss the tracks you used. So if I wanted to see something more in the hobby it would be discussions of the music by reliable reviewers such as you. Thanks
Thanks Robert! Glad you enjoyed the video and the recommendations.
I'm in the process of curating a series of playlists of test tracks for my patrons (they have access to about 5-6 playlists at this point with a few tracks in each) so when that project is done I might be able to provide some discussion here about it. Thanks for the suggestion!
@@PassionforSound by supporters I assume you are referring to Patreon subscribers
Yes, Robert - sorry. I don't know what the correct term is for Patreon members so I call them patrons.
I am so glad you are bringing this "power" issue up.
It has been a bugbear of mine since the HE-6 days. They ARE hard to drive, but not as hard as is sometimes suggested
Thank you for this very specific and passional review!
Thank you for addressing the planar power myth, I'm finally pulling the trigger on a pair of HE1Kse's and I was not sure if I need to upgrade from my current L30 Amp.
I have been scouring online someone who addressed this matter. Thank you so muchh!
So glad I could help. You won't need more power than the L30 can provide, however, you'll find that the HE1ks can perform better with a higher quality amp. No need to upgrade immediately, but keep it in mind
@@PassionforSound Thank you for your reply kind sir. If you don't mind me asking:
Do balanced and SE outputs make a difference to sound if the output power is the same? Like on the Topping A30 Pro
They actually can. There are two reasons for this: 1) if extra components have been added to make the connection of one output (i.e. a balanced amp circuit being adapted to produce a SE output) then the extra components can change the sound
2) the connectors themselves have different properties (e.g. conductivity, resistance, etc.) and can therefore alter the sound very slightly in some cases too
Driving low frequencies in headphones is actually the limiting factor in amplifiers.
Assuming that the headphones have a flat impedance versus frequency response a 1 volt 100 Hz signal is going to require the same power as a 1 volt 1 kHz signal and also a 1 volt 10 kHz has signal.
The thing with music is there's a lot more voltage produced at low frequencies than higher frequencies. That's just the nature of music. That's why amps can struggle with low frequencies when driving headphones.
As long as the amplifier has the ability to quickly supply enough current and voltage then it won't be a limiting factor. Amplifiers can fall down when they can't supply the voltage and current quickly enough not to disrupt the waveform. This could be easily checked with a tone burst test.
In theory that's true because you're right about the majority of energy in music being at lower frequencies, but I don't think I've seen a modern amp from a reputable manufacturer that doesn't have the ability to supply sustained power to maintain 75-85dB listening levels with plenty of headroom remaining for occasional peaks.
@@PassionforSound Another issue here is that impedance and phase may not be static. For example, the Focal Clears spike all the way up to 340 ohm impedance at 80 Hz or so and the HD650s 500 ohms at 60 Hz, along with any associated phase changes. This can present challenges for amps that can't handle those types of dynamic voltage requirements, of which there may not be many, but where beefier amps don't struggle. Additionally, planars don't have that swing but that means that bass frequencies that are frequently boosted by users now require significantly more current at the lower impedance vs a dynamic with higher impedance in the bass range, and this can result in some amps struggling as well. Couple that with the low efficiency of headphones like the Susvara and HE6 and you get people saying they need massive power, which is perhaps a misrepresentation of why bigger amps may offer better performance but is not necessarily wrong on the whole.
Definitely the content I've covered here applies only to planars with their flat impedance. As for the boosting with EQ, that could definitely play a part. I'd like to think that the 20dB or so headroom that most of these amps have when producing up to 85-90dB should allow some wiggle room for EQ, but it depends on how extreme the EQing gets
This is why Susvara's need speaker amp power. The 83 impedence is measured at 1k, but that doesn't mean they hold their efficency across the range. At lower frequences the efficency is actually closer to 70 and throughout the range it fluctuates. While you can, technically, drive them on a Burson for example and get good sound, what you are missing is the lows really starts to fall apart and not be able to drive the Sus to it's capability. Will it sound good, yes, but are you leaving stuff on the table, yes. Now, this is where the difference between subjective and objectivity may come in. You may not care. Hell, I can put the Sus on my Looto PAW 6k DAP and it sound really good, Arya good, but not Susvara good. People that say you don't need a lot of power to drive Sus, haven't tried giving them much power than they need to see how much headroom they have. One thing is clear, as you move up in power, the better the Sus does. The AHB2 does so well because it is essectially an THX 789 at scale, so ultra clean power amplification at more than 2 watts per channel. So while you can drive them with less power as you scale up you'll notice that each time you hear the Sus do better, clean power is that reason.
Roger, you're posting misinformation. The impedance of the Susvara is about 60 ohms and doesn't vary significantly at any frequency. Hifinews measured it and here's what they found:
"its impedance vs. frequency is practically constant - a minimum of 59.3ohm and a maximum of 59.4ohm - so the Susvara is essentially immune to frequency response modification caused by the finite source impedance of the partnering headphone amp"
What this means is that the Susvara requires exactly the same current and voltage at ANY frequency between 20-20,000Hz. There is no demonstrable benefit in driving these with speaker amps. I've used amps considered to have too little power and amps that have comfortably more than required. In each case, at safe listening levels (e.g. 75-85dB), the listening experience is consistent with the quality of the amp and does not correlate to the amount of power available.
Having your perspective on different headphone types (drivers, open, closed) with different music styles would be interesting
Great idea about the interaction between the design types and music!
Really enjoy your reviews. In my humble opinion i think you have come a long way. Better, precise and informative without being boring. I would like to know more about comparison in regards to wires, wifi, Bluetooth, apple air and aptx comparisons. If that does effect the final signal. Ps plus I just dowloaded dts for headphones and dolby atmos for headphones on windows
Thanks Kam. That's an interesting rabbit hole with those various input types. I'll see what I can do!
Wow,
You knocked this review it out of the park :)
Thanks so much, Bruce! Glad you liked it
Truly quality interview, excellent job. thank you
So glad you liked it!
Excellent thorough review as usual Lachlan. A long time after this review but a relevant development- open box Susvara sets are srarting to appear from authorized vendors in the $4000 range with full warranty and even money-back return policies- bringing the price more in line with the likes of Utopia so the comparison here is very apt (both are still aspirational but Sus is starting to become similarly aspirational)
Glad you liked it, Joe! That's great pricing for Susvaras. They're an amazing option at that price
Woow, cant thank enough for this extrem precious Information 👍🐬🙏👌🌞
So glad it was helpful
Grade-A levels of anality. Love it. Brilliantly thorough. Thanks
My pleasure. Glad you liked it. This one was a little extreme on the detail, but a $6000 headphone kind of needs that, doesn't it?
Excellent review - really illuminating - thanks!
So glad you liked it!
Brilliant review, thanks Lachlan. Great content and explanations. I learned so much. The detailed headphone comparisons were worth their weight in gold! Keep up the great work.
Hi Marc, so glad it was helpful - thanks for letting me know! 🙂
Great review, I heard too many comments about speaker amp for the Susvara.
I'm interesting to know more about estat amp, especially when Audeze came out with the CRBN
Hmmmm... estats are an area I haven't dabbled in much yet, but maybe in the future...
Glad you liked the review!
@@PassionforSound I know, it just a suggestion.
A welcome suggestion too - thanks 🙂
Finally a review of the piece de resistance!
Glad I could provide 🙂
Recently tried Susvara with Hypsos + Oor ... finally heard some solid bass from Susvaras (after a few db sub bass shelf admittedly, but H+O has tones of headroom).
@Audio Imperfect most hi end sets have a "flat and reference" bass response, also it depends on expectations. I like bass to hit the harman 2013 so I need to add a bass shelf in most cases.
@Audio Imperfect indeed that's what Harman targets are all about. It's based on "consumer" preference in given year. Audiophile market is slightly different, a lot more diverse with a lot of people aiming at reference and maximum detail to get that "true" reproduction, however most people also like to have that fun, satisfying side of the hobby as well. I'm certainly mostly about fun, but at the same time I really enjoy the technicalities. Most sets that excel in technical aspects however aim for the flat reference bass ... and that's the whole problem or quest people go on to add more bass to these sets. I just use a bit of eq on a really powerful chain and job done, but you can use a tube amp with tubes that give a v shape boost for example ... but then your other sets will start to sound boomy ... so for me eq strikes a nice balance.
I agree that the Susvara would benefit from a slight lower bass lift, but for what it's worth, I also think over-adherence to target curves can rob the hobby of diversity of sound signatures. There are some wonderful sounding non-Harman products around too. (I know this wasn't a pro-Harman conversation - just sharing a related thought)
I read that the Ferrum stack was designed with the Susvara in mind
Quite possibly
great review, as usual - thanks! since it may be driven by speaker amps it may be the ultimate tool for those of us with doesn't based systems to find out what speakers and room interaction are adding/substraction/changing from/about "the truth."
That's true, Juan. Also, I'm not saying you shouldn't use speaker amp, just that it's unnecessary
@@PassionforSound i got you point loud and clear. considering purchasing them was a tunning and evaluation tool for my speaker based system. top notch review. second to none in detail and insights into every aspect of the gear. and it seems that each new post is more thorough and insightful than preceding ones. following your every post! thanks again!!!!
Thanks so much, Juan. So glad it's helpful content!
Lachlan, let me remind you that I've really been grooving on your reviews. You have a vocabulary for music, and bridge technical, aesthetic, and emotional references in a way which instructs and clarifies.
So, flattery over with, I want to suggest that "emotional engagement" is one criterion which can't be seen as a performance variable. That phrase is entirely personal, individual in nature - "subjective" if you don't mind that word. One could even say the association of the midrange with a mother's voice can correlate with either favoring or rejecting a fatter, warmer midrange on "emotional" grounds based on how comfy you were with Mom, vs finding the emotion in the clearer, more articulate reproduction of the what the artists conveyed to us. I found the Empyrean frustrating emotionally, because I could sense missing music, even though some tunes were warm and cozy and enjoyable.
Is there something I may be missing about some shared standard for "engagement"?
I'm not saying which midrange you like actually does reflect how you felt about Mom, I'm just saying that we have many, and subtle, reasons to associate a frequency range and a dynamic envelope with an emotional pleasure, and/or a sensual and aesthetic pleasure. How else could you frame "emotional engagement"? As a personal response to a midrange with a certain balance of embracing and informing? I compared two, very disparately priced, dynamic cans: Grado GS3000x vs Focal Utopia 2022. I was seriously pleased with the Utopias right off the bat - there was no peakiness at all, a great balance of a musically rich tonality with excellent resolution and fun slam, superb dynamic range and envelope. But the Grados to my surprise (and my favorite Grado were the GS3000e, before this), were nearly as rich, characteristically more assertive in the mid and upper mid....and while not as timbrally developed on acoustic instruments and voices as the Utopia '22, they were still greatly expressive and fun, and, in absolute terms, world-class. And 40% of the price.
BTW - you're absolutely right about the sibilance reverb on Ben Fold's There Always Someone Cooler Than You. I shifted from Utopia 2022 to Susvara. through Holo May KTE DAC and either Bryston BHA-1 or Burson Soloist GT. The Bryston is an example of a nominally inadequately powered amp for the Susvara, but does a more than credible job in balanced mode, which quadruples the weighted power, with dual-mono design as I understand it - it doesn't quite have the effortless delivery of the ten-times more powerful Burson GT, but on my other headphones, I find the 10 year old Bryston to be a more refined, balanced amp than the excellent Burson. WIth both amps, the reverb on s-sounds using the Susvara, is very clear; on the Utopia '22 and the Elite, the reverb was inaudible. On the Abyss 1266TC it was moderately clear; and the Grado GS3000x, believe it or not, was almost as distinct as the Susvara. I find the
Glad you enjoy most of the content. As for the emotional engagement piece, I understand that challenge, but it's a relevant factor in my decision-making process about a headphone and it captures many intangibles. While it can't be defined and is completely subjective, my hope is that people who watch multiple reviews from me will begin to understand how I hear things and what makes a headphone enjoyable to me. That should help people who value the same things to work out what they will like and those who don't care about that aspect (or don't align with my tastes) can ignore that part. It's the same for people who don't care about soundstage. I still discuss it, but they can ignore it if tonality is what matters most to them.
Hopefully that makes sense.
26:03 Sonoma m1 and Sonoma acoustic aperio deliver even better true to life sound from what I've heard .
Please review these and the T+A Solitaire P with it's amp HA200 . That's a magnificent headphone amp combo aswell !
It will all come down to synergy and overall quality of the amp.
I've emailed T+A in the past with no reply I'm afraid ☹️
Hello Lachlan, Thank you making this review relevant to those that won’t be able to afford such a headphone. Can you please review the HE6SE sometime. I would like to learn more about class A amplifier.
I'm not sure if I can review the HE-6SE, but I'll try. Thanks for the topic suggestion too 🙂
Thank you Lachlan, you've cleared up the fact that I should be aiming for a not too revealing headphone while I have less than perfect source.
At some point in the future I should acquire some extremely well recorded and produced high definition music. That's when I need to get very high definition revealing headphones a chord Dave and m scaler etc.
Glad I could help. For me, the reality is that music is about enjoyment and while a headphone like the Susvara is insanely good when driven by the right source chain and with great tracks, it's not ever going to satisfy my want for pure enjoyment of music across my whole library.
The power thing is still a bit confusing. My HE6se (slightly less sensitive than Susvara -- 82.5dB/mW) seem to sound better on $200 Emotiva A-100 speaker amp than $1K Soloist 3XP. Deeper bass and smoother highs on the A-100. (Though the 3XP wins in imaging and probably detail). But yeah as you said that may not be because of power but because the amps themselves sound different. But I'm still surprised that a speaker amp sounds better than a dedicated headphone amp 5 times the price.
I think you've hit the nail on the head with your description. The Susvara is a very neutral sounding headphone and you're hearing for yourself how much more resolving the Soloist is BUT, the less resolving and possibly thicker sounding A-100 is more enjoyable because it's adding some smoothness and richness to the sound. That's not the power though, it's the character of the amp. I expect you'd like the Susvara better from a Jotunheim 2 also.
Lachy you made me upgrade my HE1000v2 to the Susvara after watching this!! Great review as always mate.
Your review of the Susvara tackles the power requirement myth comprehensively. It’s something no other reviewer has done and your efforts should be applauded - I only pressed buy after I watched your analysis and realised I didn’t need a super expensive speaker amp.
That's great news on both counts, Abe! You're in for a treat. What amp do you plan to use for them?
I always enjoy the high quality of your videos. j
That's great, SL. Thank you! (PS I stopped using your real name on hear in case you like to maintain privacy - not being impersonal 🙂)
This was possibly the best overview/review I’ve seen on TH-cam. Most other reviewers just parrot what we hear in so many other reviews. And knowing that you own and love the Empyrean, it seems that you’re approaching this review in an earnest way.
As an owner of the Arya and late bloomer overall regarding Hifiman headphones (mostly based on quality control issues) I can say that you’ve nailed the sound and performance of the Susvara.
I’ve spent time with the Susvara, Utopia, and the HE1000 and by now I’m quite familiar with Hifiman’s general house sound.
For my tastes I think my next big move in a hp will most likely be the Utopia or the HE1000.
I just didn’t like the full truth telling nature of the Susvara although it is technically outstanding.
And for this, my wallet will thank me and my marriage will remain intact!
Another great and educational video 👍🏻!
Glad I could be of help and also spare your wallet and marriage, Darth! I've got the new Aryas here now and after a few days of use they're really starting to impress me.
Really great review, I didn't expect to laugh 😀 I would like to learn about equalisers, the absolute basics of what they are, how you use them to vary the sound, adding more bass or the like and showing us some options of portable, if such exist or small desk versions to the full-size units and explaining the differences.
Glad you liked it. Great topic suggestions too!
Thanks for the review
You're welcome!
Best audio-related review channel out there Lachlan! A must subscribe
Thank you so much! 🙂❤️
Great review, hope I can get 1 in the future.
Glad you liked it. I hope you can too
@@PassionforSound BTW, do you also have plan on reviewing the DCA stealth?
If I can get my hands on some, yes - absolutely!
Great review, but re: the "myth" of needing more power to drive planars, it comes from the fact that planars require more CURRENT than dynamic drivers, particularly for controlling their low frequency response. For an easy illustration, plug Susvara into a OTL tube amp with moderate power, but low current. The bass, if it produces any, will be loose and distorted as if the driver can't quite do what it's supposed to. People generally miss the distinction between needing "high power" vs "high current".
Hi Chris, if you look at the current figures required, they're actually tiny. I had graphs prepared for that, but decided I'd already included maybe too much detail. OTL amps are definitely not well suited to driving something like the Susvara (nor are some transformer-coupled tube amps like the Mainline), but anything producing the required power at 60 ohms HAS to have sufficient current available - it's nearly impossible to achieve the power output without both voltage and current being sufficient. Those OTL amps you mention struggle because the high output impedance means they can't deliver power well into low impedance loads.
@@PassionforSound For planar headphones, the impedence is constant so your statement remains largely true. However, there are 2 issues at play. One, not all headphones have a constant impedence. In dynamic based headphones, you'll notice that the impedence isn't constsnt at all, hence your claim is false. Two, sensitivity matters and headphones like the he-6 and this headphone probably want more power than let's say, what an atom plus can produce with extra headroom.
Also, just a note to the few people reading this, you'll probably want a low output impedence headphone amp for planars because this causes a large voltage drop thus potentially not bring loud enough for those kinds of headphones (voltage divider).
I would also like to add that yes, no one should listen to 114 dB SPL nominal, EVER but who is claiming this? One has to keep in mind that for high dynamic range (for transients) music where one listens to high levels, the power requirements at 105 dB and above actually do matter.
All true, A Fly. For the record, this review is referring only to planar magnetic power requirements where impedance is fixed. I did mention that VERY briefly in the video, but want to reiterate that hear. There's no doubt that sufficient headroom is required too. I used the example in the review that all of the amps cited could drive the Susvara comfortably at 90dB and still have >20dB of headroom remaining in most cases.
I'm not saying that any headphone amp can drive them (the MT-601 for example that I mentioned in the video definitely cannot). But, the key point to consider here is that running out of power produces clipping, not reduced bass (or perhaps both if the bass frequencies are what clip). The results of clipping are audible distortion and therefore harshness, not a general lack of fullness in the sound as is usually claimed.
@@PassionforSound So you're saying that with an amp like what's built into the Hugo TT2 is absolutely sufficient to get the most out of the headphones? A friend has Susvara + TT2 and while I can see that using a different amp might produce a better pairing, it wouldn't be from having more power available in and of itself... right?
Hi Lachlan! I have read so much review about the Susvara on the net but your review in my book is the most comprehensive of all, Thanks for that. I am planning to buy the Susvara by this coming fall and will also add the Lazuli Nirvana headphone cable on top of it. I will power this with my Simaudio 430HA ( Running my Hifiman he-1000 right now ) 8 watts at 50 Ohms load. My dac is still a 650d from sim audio that i also use as my cd player. I might leave comments once everything will be in place because we do not hear to much of the 430HA driving Susvara on the net. Later on.. i might add the Tambaqui Dac from Mola Mola. I will possibly have to drive to New Jersey ( USA ) but i don't mind. Good day and keep up your excellent work! A music lover...
Sounds like you have quite the system planned. I imagine it will sound brilliant! So glad I could help with your decisions around the Susvara. Enjoy the music and do drop back in and let me know about the combo with the 430HA when you have the Susvaras.
For sure i'll come back with some feedback. As soon as the Susvara will be fully broken in and including the nirvana cable, i will come back for comments. I must say i am very excited about discovering the sound and how everything will blend together. Just to let you know in advance that my main listening is about 70 % Classical music and 30% a blend of French and English Pop, Rock, Jazz. Speak to you in fall. Good day!!
.
I look forward to hearing from you. Enjoy the journey between now and then 🙂
Good day Lachlan. Just commenting here on my second account. Thanks for your reviews. I got the Blessing 2 recently and find it quite a bit more detailed than the HD560S. I also ordered the Ananda but can't access it due to travel restrictions.
Sorry to hear about the Ananda! Glad to hear you're enjoying the Blessing 2. IEMs will often be more detailed that headphones, particularly at lower levels because the drivers are small and easy to move plus they're so close to your ear that there's no internal reflections of soundwaves, etc. 🙂
@@PassionforSound yeah. But I miss the staging of open backs. I think I will stick with full sized open backs in the future
Yeah, it's always a trade-off
Great review, amplification quality is hugely important for this level of sets indeed. (Thank you for the exchange on my previous comment, decided to delete it to avoid misunderstandings :) ).
Ah, I wondered what happened. No problems, Kris. I hope it was all helpful and that nothing I said came across poorly. 🙂
@@PassionforSound hah, no, it was just a disaster waiting to happen for people coming in hot without reading the whole conversation :) it’s a hot topic. Always good to talk to knowledgeable people and get more perspective 👌🍻
awesome review.. thanks
My pleasure
such a great product and killer review! If I didn't already have a 1266 Phi TC I'd be saving for a Sus. Susvara, 1266 Phi TC, LCD4, Utopia, Emp, Final D8k pro, Verite closed, HE-1, Shan-gr-la, SR009, SR007 are all on the mount rushmore of summit fi headphones.
how do you like the 1266>?
I'm keen to try a couple of those others given the chance. Not sure I can afford to buy any more of them though having sold off so much gear to fund the Susvaras. In time perhaps...
Great video, thank you! Would love a video on some tube basics.
Great! Thanks, David
For me, I love the Susvara on Tubes. Try it on an ampsandsound device. I got the Nautilus for the SUS. Also, for the Emperyn(sp) use case - fun and engaging, I chose the ZMF Verite Closed. Has a little more punch. I'm interested in trying the Elite when I get a chance to see how it would do.
I agree about the Susvara on tubes - it sounds fantastic! I'm using it with the TU-8200R from Elekit
Great review! I’d like to hear a review on how these hi end headphones sound through something like the chord Mojo or similar priced headphone dac/amp.
Hi Chris, thanks for the suggestion, but it's not really a setup I'd recommend. The top end gear will always be limited by driving it with lower end source products. That's not too say there's anything wrong with the Mojo - I have one and love it. My point is that you're much better off balancing your system and buying gear that's all in a comparable tier rather than putting all your money into a flagship headphone only to be underwhelmed when you can't hear what it's truly capable of
Passion you 100% nailed the 3 headphones on what they do in my opinion but I think when people say the Susvara’s need more power they think when they plug a $200 Schiit AMP they will not power on or something. Of course they do but will sound flat and can get treble spikes like you said in your review. I’ve tried the following my Susvara’s Violectric V281 powered them sounded okay but harsh treble, Topping A90 powered them but sounded flat with harsh treble, Emotive BassX headphone amp unleashed 50w okay sounding better then the others but still too much treble sparkle, Schiit Ragnarok did pretty good but still way too much treble harshness. Then I bought the HOLLY GRAIL headphone amp Woo Audio WA33 Elite with upgraded KR HP tubes and you complete perfect treble like the power of a solid state amp and the smoothness of a tube amp in one. It’s all about SYNERGY between sources. I keep seeing TH-camrs trying low end gear and saying it sucks because they are not pairing it correctly. This is like saying I have a Porsche GT3 RS but you didn’t have the money for tires so you put on some 2005 Toyota Corolla tires on and took it to the track in slid off the track saying this car sucks. You CANNOT test low-fi gear like this or you’ll hear it. I personally do not think this was in the recording it was the gear around the Susvara’s. But you are a really one of the BEST reviewers on TH-cam and nailed the 3 headphones that I own.
Thanks Lu(ky! I agree 💯 with what you've said about having to pair quality headphones with quality source chains!
@@PassionforSound I highly recommend the Violectric V281 headphone AMP with the Meze Empyreans not because of the power more of the energy it gives on the treble of the Empyrean.
I'm keen to try some Violectric gear at some point.
Killer review, love the in-depth-ed-ness. Not a headphone for my tastes (I don't want to know the truth) so my wallet is happy for now. Definitely enjoy the education though, I'm sure these make many an audiophile quite happy. ✌️
So glad it was helpful! It's definitely not a headphone I'd recommend for pure enjoyment, but it is truly amazing what it can do!
Time for Abyss 1266 Phi TC so that I know which of the two would be a better upgrade to my Utopia! :)
Hopefully I'll find a way to make that happen... 🙂
According to some forums I’ve read people keep both the TC and Susvara. The Abyss has a recessed midrange that the Susvara can do really well.
@@dudexyt the abyss has much better base though
Great video Lachlan esp. reg. power requirement. And then Hifiman offers the EF1000 as 'best' pairing with the Susvara....snakeoil or truth?
Glad you liked the video. With the amp, I think it could be a great amp for the Susvara, but not because of its power so much as how it's voiced/tuned and the use of tubes.
As usual, Lachlan, an impeccably produced video on an outstanding pair of headphones. I hope you''d agree that music - like any other art form - should be an emotional experience. In that respect the headphones that give you the greatest emotional experience should be the ones of choice. For that reason you would probably(like me) lean towards the Empyreans. At twice the price is the extra detail from the Susvaras sufficiently important to warrant the expenditure? I've listened to all the tracks you cite through my Empyreans. Ben Folds sounds crystal clear and the sibilants undistorted. There is a slight overall echo - you can hear it in the drums - but not on the vocals to my less than perfect ears. Ditto the "triangle" in The Living End track with its rather middy guitar sound but the vocals are clear. The Beck track sounds excellent. So is hearing these fine details absolutely necessary to the overall sound? Does it increase the emotional experience? Many thanks again
Hi Ross, so glad you liked the video! I do agree about the emotional aspects of the music being the most important and while I can get excited about the clarity from the Susvara, it doesn't stir the emotions like the Empyreans. There are times i will choose to reach for the Susvaras because I enjoy them to but they don't engage me in the music like the Empyreans.
Thanks Lachlan. As we speak the first reviews of Meze's new flagship "Elite" are appearing. I look forward to you getting your hands on a pair soon and hearing your opinion. A tilt at the Susvaras for a couple of grand less perhaps?
Let's hope so! I've got dibs on a loan unit from at least one source already 😉
A great review as ever (and getting to this way late). So is this the end game for a headphone for classical? Seeing some open box versions in the 3K realm. Cheers.
It's definitely one of the very best options. Have you seen my Ultimate Guide to Flagship Headphones video? I ran through a heap of headphones across all different genres there.
@@PassionforSound Thanks! Not sure but I'll search now. Thanks Lachlan.
A great review, a lot of technical information and I've never understood the sense that loudspeaker amps should be an advantage for high-end headphones. I would never think of running my Abyss PHI TC with a speaker amp. But I am of the opinion that it makes no sense to run an Abyss PHI TC or a Susvara with a $ 500 amp and that many people don't understand, because they read the spec sheet and think the amp has enough power.
I tend to agree, Paul. There's a middle ground to be had with a high quality, dedicated headphone amp IMO
@@PassionforSound Personally, I'm not a fan of the super expensive tube amplifiers. But for a Susvara or Abyss PHI TC you should add the price of the headphones for the Amp + DAC as a guideline.
That's a nice way of looking at it!
Load of bullshit right here! High end active speakers sound miles better than any headphones on the market and none of them have anything close to 500 buck headamp quality in them. Key is the balance and headphones dont have any balance cause they have 1 speaker that handles everything and none single speaker is perfect.
Headphones with big soundstage like Abyss or HD800S need tube amp to add distortion to soften the highs and to make mids fatter.
Heard many of these high distortion tube amps and high distortion class a amps and never understand why they are so praised besides having a lot more coloration and softness than modern tech.
I can see why stuff like that work when there are basically no good headphone that is excellent whitout eq.
Eq and good source like clean usb or i2s and clean amp is all that you need...
Abyss have shitty mids and it just need eq and not expensive amp to hide flaws.
@@20puskinas1992 it's okay, people usually tend to buy the wrong headphones or speakers to begin with and afterwards they think they need some miraculous combo (linear power supplies for router/switch/DAC and whatever amp) only to sweeten the wrong choice if transducers.
I'd like to see a comparison between iem and headphone sound.
Like, what you get when going for a headphone vs iem or vice versa.
It might be too broad of a topic, though I do want to experience in particular how the bass presentation in headphones and iems differ.
That's a really interesting one - thanks Roshan. I think I could do that if I choose two products of similar equivalent performance
Thanks for a fascinating and comprehensive review! I'm still happy with my Empyrean and won't be upgrading to the Susvara. For a while, I had a HiFiMan Arya, which seems to be well-regarded, but I didn't like it at all. I would not be inclined to take a chance on another HiFiMan. Besides, I just ordered a new Dan Clark Stealth. The early reviews are very good.
Glad you liked it, Bobby! I'm also glad that I can fully endorse you keeping the Empyreans after I recommended them 😉
The new Aryas have just been launched with some taming of the treble apparently. I haven't heard the originals, but the new ones are sounding great.
Very keen to hear your thoughts on the Stealth and I hope to try them for myself at some point.
@@PassionforSound I just learned about the new Meze Elite ! I have one coming my way. 😁
Oh wow! I'm very keen to hear your thoughts
@@PassionforSound tamed arya treble you say? I'd be fascinated to hear it or see some measurements... hopefully it doesn't tamp down the details too much
@@PassionforSound Apparently now there's a _third_ version of the Arya, this time with stealth magnets and some different measurements listed on the box. Kind of annoying how HiFiMan releases these stealth updates, leaving consumers to figure out what's going on and wondering which version they have. Although, the third version has slightly different box labeling, so it is easier to identify than versions 1 (what I have) and 2 (what I believe you have).
I bet money if you waterfall graph on the same amp from low to high gain on demanding headphones the harmonic changes to attack and decay speed and 2nd and beyond harmonics will show more than just a frequency graph. Looking in 2 dimensions like that is glossing over a lot of what makes some headphones great that don't necessarily graph well on a frequency chart but have harmonics that work well. I personally can say without a doubt I can hear occasional lack of resolving capabilities listening on my he6 and realize I have my amp in low gain (but normal listening volume) before I even have to check. I'll add that resolving capabilities have pretty noticeable effects on soundstage handling adding another hard to graph element and I suspect is why better amps that can keep their capacitors charged better can have such a drastic effect on resolution and soundstage handling. Reminds me of the burson super charger effect. Interesting video and I'd love to see a deeper dive because I know I'm not alone when it comes to being able to hear the difference with some of my harder to drive headphones like the he6 and 600 ohm T1.2 even on the same amp with different gain stages at the same listening volume.
I'll take a look at the waterfalls from my measurements and let you know.
Keep in mind though that some amps do perform differently at different gain settings (depending on the implementation) and that it's very important to be sure you're 100% volume matched before drawing any conclusions.
Terrific review, thanks! Do you know of speakers that could compare to the Susvara in sound quality?
Glad you liked it! I'm yet to hear a speaker that reminds me of the Susvaras, but the Kudos Titans come closest from what I've heard.
Excellent review.
I absolutely adore my Empyreans (as you do) as they just make all music so pleasant to listen to. You just forget about analysing the sound as even poor recordings sound great. The fact is, even with Roon and wonderful recordings available digitally nowadays we all still have CD Quality recordings that just aren't recorded well. The Empyreans really are superb all rounders that you can listen to all music.. all day long.
I sold my Stellias because they were very unforgiving with the level of detail they retrieved. Give them a crappy recording and it just sounded "even more crap". Give them a good quality recording and they were superb but I felt I could only listen to superb recordings. Quite limiting.
Occasionally I still think "this would sound incredible on those Stellias" when I come across a well recorded track.
I have two headphone setups now for the Empyreans - Matrix Element X with Feliks Euphoria AE, and a Schiit Bifrost 2 with Schiit Jotunheim 2...
I am very tempted to try these with that Feliks tube Amp as I didn't have that to test with the stellias. I know detail retrieval is also insane with these but the tube Amp should soften them I feel. Perhaps these will be more forgiving. The Empyreans wouldn't go anywhere of course.
I will try and work out an audition with a local dealer. Might have to lie to the wife about the price..."Nah they weren't THAT expensive"..frankly the cost is silly really.
Cheers again for a great review and also for explaining the power requirements. I think my equipment will easily drive them. I doubt my Dragonfly Cobalt will though 🙂
Hi Martijn, so glad you enjoyed the review and that you're loving your Empyreans. They really are great at making all music fun.
I'm currently listening to the Meze Elites for an upcoming review and they're a bit like a halfway point between the Susvara and the Empyrean. More fun and smoother than the Susvara, but also more resolving and neutral than the Empys. It's definitely worth a listen to the Susvara, but it also might be worth trying the Elites if you can because they're a wonderful middle ground.
Oh, and the Susvara work wonderfully with tube amps if they've got a modicum of power (i.e. more than the Cobalt 😉)
@@PassionforSound excellent thank you! Yes I was looking at the Elites as well. I look forward to hearing your comparison. Would be nice if they came in black though 😉
Yeah, the silver won't be everyone's taste
Nice reviews . All of them
Thank you!
Nice review! Hope that you can consider doing a review on the 2nd TOTL of HiFiman; HE1000SE. Heard mixed review about these 2 headphones with a mix of supporters on either side claiming superiority over the other. Thanks!
I hope to get to those too. Glad you liked the review!
Does this really the cable as the Ananda? I had listened to a review with Dr Fang where he states that they spend a lot of time trying to get the cables right. It would be interesting to hear the justification for these cables because they are just strange feeling.
Nice review, I look forward to hearing these sometime.
I haven't checked if the materials are the same on the inside - they may well be different. The sheathing is definitely the same and feels pretty bad. The actual wires in the cable seem to be of very good quality (based on comparison with my aftermarket cables) so it's really only the ergonomics that I'm criticising and Dr Fang is talking about the metallurgy I think rather than the ergonomics
Finally someone being real about the Susvara and how power hungry they are.... which they are, indeedbut never felt like there was not enough power on tap on my iCan Pro Signature (as some say...)
Exactly! Unless you're looking to do hearing damage, just about any high quality amp will do just fine with them 🙂
Lachlan-Very much enjoy your reviews--thanks! I have never understood the difference between balanced and unbalanced outputs. Help!
Glad you like the reviews. Thanks for the great topic
As a he1000se owner this Susvara review was incredible
So glad you liked it!
@@PassionforSound you are truly the best. Have a good one
Thank you 😊
Fantastic review as usual. As for my question, could you talk about the general tuning approach differences you've noticed between Summit-Fi devices like these and more "normal" headphones like a Sundara or an HD-6XX?
Glad you liked it, John. Great question!
Thanks for the awesome review. I may have no money for bills, but I got good sound.
Just joking. I got neither. Which amp do you recommend for these cans?
It's a bit like that, isn't it?
I happily drive them from amps like the TT2, Sparkos Labs Aries, Burson Soloist and Elekit TU-8200R (using the speaker taps). I do believe they deserve high quality amplification though so some of the amps mentioned in the video aren't recommendations so much as examples
@@PassionforSound Thank you for your answer. I myself drive the HE-6SE v2's from a Jot 2. I'm quite happy with it, so I was wondering if the Sus would be a good match for it, too.
Thanks for all the quality content! Keep 'em coming.
It would sound enjoyable from the Jot 2, but might not reach its maximum performance.
Glad you like the content! 🙂
I listened to the Final D8000 :(, the DCA Expanse, :), then the empyrean, and i literally cried, then i moved to the Elites, yes, more details, but not the emotion, then the Utopia's, boring, and Finally i listened to the Susvara's and they BLEW ME AWAY !! they are on the level of what i experienced when i still had my IRS Beta speakers, so, from those i select the empyrean and the Susvara, and i find it a very difficult choice, between being blown away, or being moved to tears (and a huge difference in price, not just the headphones, but what is required to drive them), the shop was using a 30 000 dollar system (dcs lina dac, amp and streamer), that's far over my budget, i wonder what headphones will sound better in a system for a total price of 9000 dollars (6K dac amp for the empyrean, or a 3k dac + amp combo for the susvara's), i heard some people use speaker amps for the Susvara's, i have a Mark Levinson 23.5 Solid state amp, would i be able to use that with a DAC/Pre with the Susvara's ?
I can't comment on the amp you have, but what I would say is that you can get an excellent source for the Susvara with $3k such as the Burson Conductor 3GT or 3XGT. The only other comment is make is that the Susvaras are amazing technically, but I ended up selling mine (and I know others who've done the same) because they aren't as emotionally engaging on all tracks/source chains as other options like the Empyreans and Elites.
Ultimately, only you can decide what's right for your tastes and I'm not trying to talk you out of the Susvara. It's just a matter of considering what you want to listen to day-in and day-out
I told you it’s Legendury 😍
The re-review will be up in the next eight weeks at my end to, post six months
Good work bud
You need to bring in, the ambient acoustic Mad24 at some point to, it will blow your fricking mind 🐅🐅🐅🐅
Thanks for the tip on the Mad24! How come you're re-reviewing the Susvara?
A few reasons, the chain change over will be one.
And a long-term experience with these headphones I think might be interesting two others, they’ve been here for nearly 6 months now.
Also in that intervening time I have had some incredible headphones and I EM on the table so there will be a lot more comparisons and info
Awesome! I look forward to it 🙂
I'm no expert on power levels, I always thought people exaggerated. I went to a headphone meetup and got a chance to hear the legendary Hifiman HE-6, the original no revisions. I thought my SMSL SP200 had enough power for anything. At high gain with all knobs maxed the HE-6 was barely listenable. It had bass and volume yes but I had absolutely no headroom. I did not try it out of RME ADI because it has less max power then the SP200. Since then I have been on the hunt for high power balanced solid state amp, but I haven't settled on one yet. Maybe I will pick up the new Schiit Midgard.
The HE-6SE is a very difficult headphone to drive. Technically though, the SP200 should have enough power. What it sounds like was happening was a lack of gain. It's hard to know exactly what the cause was, but maybe the DAC / source you were using has a lower output level and the SP200 just couldn't boost that sufficiently.
Things get a bit tricky with gain and power because gain is actually the measure of loudness - power is just the ability to effectively drive the headphone as the gain increases (it's confusing, I know).
I was using the RME ADI-2 .I had the volume set at +7 / 0 db to start, then I kept turning the knob to the right till it maxed. I can't verify that it hit +19 like I know the RME ADI-2 can output +19. I was shocked at how quiet the HE-6 sounded out of the RME/SP200 setup@@PassionforSound
That's interesting. What was the transport delivering sound to the ADI-2?
Any plans to review the Abyss 1266 PHI TC? Wondering how it compares to the Susvara. I am planning to buy a used pair soon and will be able to compare. Will be running them both off rear XLRs of the TT2.
Still working on that one. Local stock availability is a bit of a challenge
@@PassionforSound Something to look forward to. Heard great things but heard its tonality is a little weird. Planning to buy a used pair under warranty soon so will let you know.
Please do let me know. I'm keen to try them as soon as I can get some on my head 🙂
@@PassionforSound How do I ping you about potentially sending them over to you for review? Can I email you somewhere directly? Thanks.
Sure. You can email me at passionforsound@lachlanfennen.com
Thank you for the thought!
And just when the twins settle, this drops. Hahaha. Thanks for the awesome review as always! I should have sent you the Arya to review while I was on parental leave as they have been sitting idle for the last 6 weeks.
All good, mate! I have more than enough of your gear at the moment. Loving the DT1990s and looking forward to the review soon. Glad to hear the twins have settled.
I'd love to test a pair of these just to know what I'm missing out on.
It's definitely a headphone worth experiencing of you ever get the chance
I have not been a headphone guy - Just came across your channel as I am considering some lifestyle changes that would lead to dumping my floor standing speakers and going with an expensive headphone only system using something like the Felix or Woo Audio amps - I am very impressed with the sophistication and insight of your reviews - extremely well done, thank you - I do have a couple of questions.
1. What about positioning the headphone amp behind a line-stage preamp rather than just source -> amp -> headphone? Anything gained/lost? I ask because I have a lot of LPs and a sophisticated turntable/phono preamp setup I am looking to retain.
2. After watching scores of videos, seems like many commentators espouse RtR DACs for headphone listening like the Holo May - as the owner of an expensive delta sigma DAC, just wondering why that might be.
Keep up your fantastic work?
So glad you're enjoying the channel!
As for your questions:
1) adding a preamp can be both good and bad. On one hand, any additional connections and circuitry added to the signal path will likely reduce the absolute resolution of the system by a tiny amount. It's one of the reasons I prefer the TT2's direct headphone output rather than sending the signal to an external amp, even though some of the amps I have are world class. On the other hand, if you need a preamp for the phono stage then you can benefit from the sonic character of the preamp which can be a nice tradeoff if you enjoy what it brings to the sound. Another option is to choose a headphone amp with multiple inputs so you can run the preamp from the phono stage into one input and a direct feed from your DAC into another input
2) R2R DACs will generally throw larger soundstages than delta sigma DACs which tend to compress the depth of the soundstage. An exception to this is the Chord range of DACs which are delta sigma, but with custom filters to fix the soundstage depth issues (through very accurate timing of the reconstructed waveform). My challenge with some R2R DACs has been that they sometimes roll-off the treble and can sound a bit soft (as in lacking energy). Depending on the headphones and amp, that can be good or bad, but so far the only R2R DACs that I've really enjoyed have been the Holo May and the Caton RU6 dongle DAC.
I should add that the reason the R2R can be preferable on headphones is that they naturally lack the sense of soundstage that speakers can bring because you get no room interactions or the crossfeed from the left and right channels to both ears
Hope all that helps 🙂
I am pretty sure Sennheiser would say the HE-1 is potentially the best headphone on the planet. It would be interesting to see a shootout ;)
The Sennheiser Orpheus HE1 is a headphone system at £51K, not just a headphone. It cannot be bought separately as the amplification circuitry is unique to the system.
People compare it to HiFiMan’s Shangri La Sr headphone system at £40K but I regard the HE1 overall as the better system.
The Shangri La Sr headphone can be bought separately at £15K though.
astonishing research about power to drive these things
Yes. When you look at the numbers, they tell a different story to the "common wisdom" on forums
@@PassionforSound Yeah, never understood the concept of ''putting 1 whole watt'' in a Sennheiser hd650 with super high impedance to ''match the impedance hump'' in the bass to show it''s ''true power''. And for low OHM stuff, like a lot of hifiman planars, why put even more power than 200mw, if in my Equalizer APO i have headroom enough...? I put on my laptop and in amp and i do not perceive any difference (but... if you got a higher volume, the placebo effect comes like the headphone delivering more detail, but it's just volume).
The volume/dynamics trick is a big trap. I've accidentally done it to myself when reviewing and forgetting to match volumes properly
How do headphone ohms affect choice in headphone amps?
Great question. Thanks, Jeff
Thank you for the great review! I own the Chord Hugo TT2 and am curious about your remarks about the Susvara and the TT2. Are you saying that the TT2 can not drive the Susvara well enough from the front outputs or was the output the same from the front and back with your adaptor? I was thinking of getting the Susvara with the TT2 being my main amp and DAC. Is that a good pairing then from your testing? Thank you for your excellent video reviews? You do a great and thorough job!
Hi Greg, the TT2 is a great match with the Susvara and there is no need to use the XLRs. The front output is plenty powerful enough for normal, safe listening levels (and even a decent bit above)
@@PassionforSound Thank you very much! That's great to read! All the best!
@@PassionforSound I also wanted to ask, how are the Susvara's for genres like rock and metal? Are they as good for those genres as they are for classical and jazz and if not what headphone would you recommend that is at the level of the Susvaras? Thank you!
I think it really depends on your listening preferences more than the genre. I like the Susvaras for anything and everything because they're very well balanced, but I still prefer a warmer headphone for absolute enjoyment and the new Meze Elite fits that spot beautifully. I have a review coming soon.
In the meantime, how do you like your rock and metal to sound?
@@PassionforSound Thank you for your reply and I am greatly looking forward to your review of the Meze Elite. I have been eyeing that for a while! Do you think that would be a good compliment to the Susvara, budget depending, of course? The rock and metal sound is a good question. I like it big, detailed, and rich sounding if that makes sense. Would the Elite do that better than the Susvara? Thank you again! I really appreciate you time and help!
My TYGRS's came in a flimsy paper board box. Inside an other card board box. I could not love them more. Best, D.
Haha. Yes, packaging is pretty irrelevant to me too 😁
I don't know if you heard the Shangri-La Jr but I wonder which is the best between the Susvara and the Shangri-La Jr (especially regarding resolution and timbre)... Any opinion about that?
I haven't heard the Shangri-La Jr - sorry!
Would love to learn more about headphone/amp impedance and how to understand a bit better the correlation between sensitivity and impedance.
Great, Andrew. I can definitely help there
I need to take the entire section of the power delivery of this review and point out a few things.
Current fluctuates amplifier to amplifier. When we talk about using a speaker amplifier for something like SUS, we’re not talking about how loud something is getting. The top in a 90 gets SUS to eardrum bleeding levels of loudness depending on how the track was normallised. We are talking about control and delivering the right amount of power simultaneously to different aspects of the driver and vibrations
You will never get the lower end on a SUS on the top in a 90 as you do on a benchmark ahb2, at the same loudness volume of 70 dB.
The numbers people concentrate on far too often, but there is a lot more going on here, including synergy.
Please be sure to research the real world needs of the Susvara before perpetuating the myth (I say this respectfully, but obviously can't convey tone through text).
After publishing my review, I realised that a professional designer of amplifiers would be a good person to ask for expert input. His response when seeing the specs of the Susvara as well as the Hifi News measurement of the Susvara producing 91.5dB from a 1V tone, his response was that the Susvara needs a minimum of a clean 200mW of power available into 60 ohms to drive effectively and does not need gobs of current as the ongoing myth suggests.
Keep in mind that even at 100dB output, the Susvara still only requires 51mW (1.75V and 29.2mA). Any amp that can comfortably produce >1000mW at 60 ohms will have so much current reserve available (even if that >1000mW is only a peak output) that current is not a deciding factor.
You're 100% right that this is all about synergy. When people are recommending the AHB2, it's because it's voicing suits the Susvara. It's not about available power.
I find the Elekit TU-8200R speaker taps sound amazing too, but that's because of the quality of the amp and the tubes I have installed in it because my other headphones all sound equally as good and the tonality of the amp is evident regardless of the headphone.
I heard Golden Sound's comments from the Discord and he's theoretically right about the distortion levels, real power figures of the amps, etc. but we're not talking about driving these at >100dB (or at least I hope we're not). At safe and normal listening levels, there's just no argent I can find that supports the need for large power amps. If it's a preference, that's fine - it just shouldn't be communicated as a need IMO
@@PassionforSound in the re-review there will be extensive multitude of amplifier testing unlike the prior single amp narrative.
And looking forward to discussing with you my findings for this specific head phone how power plays a role how control plays a role or if it’s just the calibre of amplifiers 🙂
Lachlan did you enjoy the Sus pairing with the Soloist 3XP? Did you notice a significant difference with the upgraded power supply from Burson in this combo?
I have used the Susvara a lot from the Soloist and it sounds good, but it's not my favourite pairing. I really like the Susvara either straight from the TT2 for maximum transparency and detail or from the TU-8200R speaker taps for maximum enjoyment.
The Burson power supply makes a difference with any headphones I've tried - it's a nice improvement across the board
Wondering if the reason you fell in love with the empyrean is causing you to bump the mid bass in your voice for your videos. Seems to have a bit of boost either from eq or maybe room gain?
That's the room, Joseph. It's completely untreated (it's also my office for my paid work) and I've pulled out the worst reflections with EQ, but some still remain. (For the record, I don't use the Empyreans for any sound editing 🙂)
A great review and discussion, very valuable especially when looking at this level of purchase.
Glad it was helpful!
The Empys are veiled in comparison to the Susvara. They work as a warm alternative for bad recordings. They are also excellent with vocals, but still bow to the Susvara by a wide margin IMHO.
For vocals, you founded the Empyrean / Elite is more excitement and emotional than the Susvara or your prefer the more natural and pure vocals of the Susvara?
Also, tube amp or solid state for the Susvara? because also some using speaker amps for them.
The Susvara are amazing, but across the board, I find the Elite to be more engaging. When paired with a high quality tube amp though, the Susvara can be outstanding (emotionally) and offers unmatched technicalities (although the tube amps may smooth these off slightly compared to a TOTL solid state).
As for speaker amps, they are totally unnecessary and add extra bulk, cost and massive reduction in the usable volume range (you absolutely need a high quality pre-amp as well) so I don't recommend them.
@@PassionforSound Yeah but sometimes speaker amps will give more profit on the same price as some good tube amps, with a lot of more power.
You tried some Abyss cans?
And you think the Empyream is more engaging and warm than the Elite / LCD-4?
I've only tried the Abyss Diana TC so far. Yet to try the 1266 and haven't tried the LCD-4 either yet.
@@PassionforSound Ok and which you like the best for vocals? the Elite is more engaging than the Empyrean?
What you think about Feliks Envy amp?
I think the Elite is better than the Empyrean for everything except bass lovers (where it's about quantity of bass).
I haven't spent significant time with the Envy to comment on it.
for your personal taste, if u had to choose one, susvara or utopia, which would you choose
Tough call, but the Susvara's bass extension and less aggressive treble wins for me
Thank you so much for the explanation of power requirements for headphones. I had the Utopias and the EC ZDS, and I was wondering if the ZDS has the ability to drive the Susvara properly. I love the tube sound, but I’d want the grip and control over the planar to provide the best sound - what tube amps have you plugged the Susvara into? Good results?
Glad it was helpful! The ZDS should do fine with the Susvara I think unless you're pumping the EQ heavily (and even then should be fine).
I've used the Susvara with the Bottlehead Mainline and my customised TU-8200R (using speaker taps due to very high output impedance via the HP out).
The 8200R in particular sounds great with the Susvaras and is my favourite amp for them
As an Audioquest headphone lover, I wonder if I too would prefer the Meze Empyrean to the Utopia and Susvara. As far as amplifiers go, do you think the THX 789 has enough power to drive the Susvara?
I ran 1266 and Susvara from SMSL SP400 which is probably the best THX amp at the moment, it was ok but they weren’t even running at half capacity in terms of dynamics.
I think the Empyreans are probably closer to the AQ sound for sure. The Utopias might work too, but the bass isn't as fun as a NightOwl or NightHawk.
I agree with Kris that the THX amps like 789 will stifle the performance of the Susvara. Technically, it has sufficient power (based on 6000mW at 32 ohms - no figure for 60 ohms) but the quality of the sound will hold back the headphones at this level.
@@PassionforSound I find Utopia really fun and punchy from the HA6a on highest impedance setting. I would take that pairing over the Empyrean, but I would take the Empyrean over Utopias on most other pairings. Both are great sets, can’t go wrong with either, but Utopia needs a paired amp to get the sound you want from them as it can range from clinical to bombastic and fun.
Good points about the Utopia. I feel the same about using them with the Mainline in high impedance mode
I'm looking at my gears, TT2, Qutest, Soloist, Bifrost, IE900, Verite... basically most stuff you highly recommended in you reviews or comments... So my first instinct when I saw this video is don't click on it 😆, but anyway I will click that like button first then think about if I should watch it...
For what I hope to learn from your reviews, I think some basic audiophile knowledge would be great, something like what is a holographic soundstage, which frequency range represent which instrument or what frequency response curve imply good for vocals...
I hope I don't cost you lots more money, Alex, but glad I've served you well so far!
Thanks for the great suggestions!
@@PassionforSound Now I finished watching this video, gladly my wallet is still safe :)
Great review as always, you are the best audio reviewer on TH-cam IMO, your content is much better made and more informative than some other reviewers who have much more followers, I hope you keep on the great work and I believe one day you will become the most popular reviewer on TH-cam!
Thanks so much, Alex! I'm glad your wallet is safe and sound 😁
Lochlan you are wrong about susvara not needing more power. On my preamp I literally have to turn it up to the same level as my speakers to get to a good listening volume. All my other headphones I turn up far far lower.
I didn't say they don't need more power than other headphones. The point is that they don't need huge power amps. Headphone amps with anything more than 500mW at 60 ohms are plenty powerful enough for safe listening levels.
Since producing this video, I've had this confirmed by a professional designer of headphone and speaker amps from a well-respected brand.
By the way, how do you have your speakers and Susvara setup in relation to the pre-amp? Does the pre-amp feed a separate headphone amp or Susvaras running off the power amp speaker taps?
@@PassionforSound Once again (and you do this time and time again) you neglect to mention that current is a factor. You have mentioned it at times but many times you love to say 'X mw is enough' and then you fail to mention current demands of harder to drive loads.
@@PassionforSound Try running an elekit tu8600 with hard to drive bookshelves... like ATCs. It will get plenty loud at 50% on the pot... but the sound quality will be a big step down from a much more powerful and high current SS amp. Is the elekit just an inferior design with inferior parts or is it the higher current + power satisfying the harder to drive load ?
You can't compare speakers and headphones. Speakers contain drivers of different sizes (it's physically harder to move a woofer than a tweeter). They also have variable impedance at different frequencies. Planar magnetic headphones don't work like that
Hmmm not sure. So you are debunking more power myth and replacing it with cable myth? Not sure, I have been running the Arya's for months out of the SE output of the TT2 and switched to the balanced rear XLRs ... difference is very obvious. Fuller sound, more bass, less fatiguing treble etc. I ordered an Benchmark AHB2 to see if 100W 8 ohms can make the Susvara's sing. I have a trial period so I will definitely be testing out your thoughts. Thanks.
How are you connecting to the rear XLRs?
@@PassionforSound apologies for budding into this convo. Thought I’d add some points.
It’d be great if you could get the same cable material and everything you’re using your Sus with and make that an XLR adapter. That way, there is more consistency.
I use my 1266 from the TT2 XLR ends. I spent almost a week or so without the XLRs when I first got the TT2, and I wasn’t enjoying the way I used to when I owned the HSA-1b amp (Ribbon output).
I then received the adapter from Abyss, and that is the same cable material as my 1266 stock cable. The difference was noticeable and I’ve been happy.
Additionally, I’ve heard people did some columns matching b/w the XLR outs and SE out. After that, they found no difference b/w the two outs. IIRC, Rob Watts was the one to suggest volume matching.
I don’t know how to do it. Maybe you can illustrate that and give us your observations. :)
P.S: I heard the Sus is an amazing pairing with Bakoon 13r if you can afford. I wanna get it, but not all of us are rich, hehe.
No problems, Brow Daw - jump on in! 🙂
I actually think I mentioned in the video that I subsequently got an identical cable from headphone to 6.3mm and to twin XLR and found no discernible difference in the sound quality once that was in place so it was definitely the cable causing the issue and it's sound wasn't better, just different and probably worse from a technical standpoint (resolution, timbral accuracy, etc.)
I'd definitely love to try a Bakoon at some point. I have the Cayin iHA-6 here at the moment and it has current mode like the Bakoon, but it's not an improvement over the TT2 or TU-8200R because it's not at the same level as something like the Bakoon.
@@PassionforSound Oh wow, I completely missed the notification on your message. Yikes!
But I understand now. Thanks for the explanation on the cable and amp. The Cayin iHA-6 is also good (from what I read), but is definitely not on the level of the others like you mentioned.
If you get the chance, check out the Diana TC, 1266 TC, and LCD-5!
I can confirm that the 1266 will make an appearance in the future. I'm not sure about the LCD-5
Hello! What at about review of Susvara Unvield? Will you release review about it?
I plan to. There's been a delay in getting the review sample to me...
Waiting for your opinion❤. I just received mine yesterday.
@goldenstasgs I can't wait!
So gangsta love the attention to making this video
Lol. Never thought of myself as gangsta! Thanks N02tradamus!
There looks to be a dip in the frequency response centred around 3 to 4 kHz. This is the inverse of the Harman target. Did you try boosting this area to see if it improved the sound?
No, I generally don't use EQ at all. It's also very possible that this is coming from the miniDSP EARs rig. In general, I don't believe in trying to adhere to target curves. I am a fan of most Harman target tuned gear so not against the approach, but I've heard so many good products that stray from it that I like to just enjoy each headphone for what it offers.
So… what’s the sweet spot (price/performance) amp or amp/dac to power the Susvara? Wa the TT2 with SE output enough? Or a dedicated amp and separate dac a better solution?
I find the TT2 to be great, but the Susvara does benefit from an amp with a little warmth to its sound so a powerful tube amp or a full bodied solid state amp is good. I've really enjoyed the Susvara with the Burson Soloist GT and Sparkos Labs Aries
I wonder if my burson conductor 3x performance could drive them properly 🤔
( Questyle CMA 12 master as a pre amp)
I haven't looked up the specific power output of the Conductor, but it should do just fine. I spoke to an amp designer after I'd finished all of this review and he said that any amp with >250mW at 60 ohms would be plenty for the Susvara. The Conductor will be way ahead of that.