For those of us who are not Londoners a map would make this more informative and interesting. A single picture being worth a thousand words, a long list of roads and stations really confuses more than it informs. But then, I have no idea why I am watching this from NZ.
The route from Euston + Euston Square is essentially a straight road south. Warren Street is a station about a couple of dozen yards west of Euston + Euston Square and from there the road that exists there today that goes south to Charing Cross/Trafalgar Square is essentially the route that was proposed here.
One trouble that might be awkward is that the tube map is schematic instead of geographically correct, thus it is the stops and the respective connections. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tube_map
I used the Tube a LOT as I used to be a temporary telephonist, (meaning standing in for holidays, pregnancy leave, sickness etc), I was at a new office almost every week, and they could be anywhere in London. I used to travel to the nearest tube station and then either walk or get a taxi to the office. It was good fun in those days, (late 70’s early 80’s) probably because I was young and carefree, apart from being broke most of the time, no pressure. Seeing all these tube stations has the good memories (smells, sounds, warmth of the rush of air when the trains were due), all come flooding back. I live in Scotland now. Thank you 👍🏼✌️🌅
If you get up to Birmingham, you might like to investigate the Duddeston Viaduct - well at least the half of it that was built ! I believe it was going to be a link between two railway companies (same old story!) but after 2 years of construction, was abandoned in favour of a completely different route. Even half complete, it is a significant construction that is not hard to spot for anyone looking for it. However, if you're not looking for it, it blends into the background quite well - and provides a roof over various sub-builds making use of the arches. It's clear none of it saw railway track but the real puzzle is the fact that what has been built is in three parts (two and a tweenieth) - each being joined by a bridge over roads. Yet I suspect the bridges were never fitted either !
A very interesting series covering many obscure details which even as an ex Londoner, I didn't know about. The narrative is superb, well spoken and informative and nice to listen to. Also with a dash of irreverence and humour, very well done and thank you.
Me at 5 year old would have loved watching this. However 33 year old me gets laughed at by my partner as I watch this whilst sipping gin! Nostalgia of growing up in London and wondering how, when, what! Good binge watching with a soothing voice
The LCR sounds like it was either inspired by or inspired the London Midland's underground section from Kentish Town to Moorgate and Blackfriars via Faringdon (joining the South-Eastern Railway at Blackfriars). In other words, this was the original Thameslink in many ways.
Love the 'mis-leading' titles. Your ones are so much better than some that are really mis-leading. Oh yes, good video and, like all this series, really interesting.
If there was a link between the railways out of Euston and Charing Cross, just think how different those stations and routes might be. Direct train from Glasgow, Manchester, Edinburgh, Birmingham to Kent and beyond across the (a) link to France, but built maybe 50 years earlier. Makes you think about possibilities, if only!
You can do that already, but from Birmingham, you go down via Oxford / Reading / Basingstoke or Guildford rather than through London; or alternatively via the West London Line, like on the Milton Keynes to Croydon service, or the former Birmingham to Brighton service. Or, alternatively, there is Thameslink.
@@katrinabryce those are all indirect routes, change at Reading, change at Paddington, underground to Charing Cross/Waterloo /London Bridge etc. I used to live in Reading, i used the Reading to Birmingham services a few times; they are slow it tended to be quicker via London, despite the need to use the underground :(
@@prduguid What I mean is, that with existing tracks, you could route a train from the north to the south coast, and there are CrossCountry services that do that, or at least there were until about 18 months ago.
@@katrinabryce ahh, yes i see. Cross Country did run a service via Reading, Kensington Olympia to Brighton, but sadly that stopped a few years ago. Shame
@@prduguid Also, there is /was one train a day from Reading to Guildford (+ the half-hourly local trains), and hourly (I think now every 2 hours) to Southampton
So maybe this is more "Lines that were ahead of their time". I believe the tube lines followed the roads for similar reasons to the cut and cover lines; to avoid disturbing building foundations. Didn't Edward Watkin have a similar idea later for a surface line from Marylebone to Charing Cross with a "London Central" station in Hyde Park?!
The old ones followed the road because they dug a trench in the middle of the road, laid the track in the trench, then built a roof over it and relaid the road. The ability to drill tunnels through the ground without disturbing the surface came later.
I live in Seattle WA. We have a light rail system that in it's start was not popular at all. It was to go from downtown, through an economically depressed area called Rainer Valley and then cut to the airport south of the city. Turns out that since a lot if redevelopment in Rainer Valley made some people lots of money, enabled lots of new businesses to open and made the trip to the airport faster, the line became more popular. Then 10 years down the way they ran the line to the Capitol Hill neighborhood and the University of Washington. Now they are constructing lines to Bellevue, Redmond, North Gate mall and beyond. Everyone wants a line to there area now. Everyone wants to be in on the secret of where the next line will be so they can buy property on or near the line. The deals and closed door talks remind me of the stories you tell of the early days of the London rail. The really interesting thing is that one of the lines runs across a floating bridge. It is one of the few if not the only rail going across a span of almost three miles that floats on the water. I thought you would like that.
Did wonder though however if there were any plans to create a southwest curve connecting mainline services at Charing Cross to Waterloo rather than just Waterloo East, because from Rail Map Online it appears there was previously old track and/or platforms at Waterloo whose northwest alignment could have potentially made that possible.
I think a line from the LBSCR at Victoria to the LNWR would have been more useful. Cross London through trains always seemed such a useful Idea but we managed without them for over 100 years. Now we have 4 (and about tu get a 4th)
Wasn't the idea behind this railway was to cross London and aim toward Kent and a tunnel to France? I understand that the Great Central (heritage) Railway was the last bit of this line before the Beeching cuts.
I can't speculate on if the Charing Cross, Euston and Hampstead Railway copied the route of the London Central Railway, but it's interesting to note that originally Warren Street was known as Euston Street, and is still marked as such in the tiles of the southbound tunnel wall, at the north end of the platform, in the same way that Hampstead is still marked as Heath Street.
It would have been useful in retrospect as another Thameslink style mainline route. Also of the view it would not have necessarily negated the existence of some Charing Cross Northern Line branch existing, in fact it may have been a good thing as an alternative route from Waterloo to Euston would have for example removed the need for the Piccadilly sub-branch to Aldwych. Not to mention as well plans IIRC for express Northern line route from Waterloo to Golders Green in the 1946 London Railway Plan (12A), would still allow for a route to parallel the real-life route alongside the alternate mainline tunnel.
Jago: At 1:02 there's an excellent old photograph. Did it have a caption when you found? I'd like a wee bit of detail please, if possible, starting with a date and location. Hd this line been built as planned, it could be a useful partner to the Thameslink route today, probably a very, very busy line. It might even have become something similar to what Watkin had hoped for, a Manchester - Paris main line??😁
Wow, how different London would be if we had trains crossing The Stand at street level. As these would be mainline trains, I assume the cut and cover tunnels would have to have been built much larger to cope with the taller/wider trains.
It would have made a massive difference if they had run overground trains through kings cross and on underground through central and through to and on to stations passed Waterloo . It would have taken serious bottlenecks at change overs to and from underground stations. Like the what has been done in Tokyo
To echo kevin rogan’s comments re a map, it might be worth looking at some of martin zeros videos about the manchester waterways and seeing how he handles it.
Thameslink is actually super-old. It got shut down for decades and revived in more recent times. It wasn't originally called Thameslink, of course. I don't know the original name.
While the London Central Railway never happened, the Central London Railway did - on what is now today's Central Line. I bet that would have confused a lot of people!
i suppose the point here is that it wouldnt have been a line for londoners per se, but more a main line through route in order to save passengers from having to change trains
Map graphics please ... otherwise one must pause video & Google / Map search everything ... which is fine ... but you know, you do ask for suggestions.
So there's talk of splitting the Northern Line into two separate lines when the Power Station Extension is finished. I WANT to say let's name it the London Central Line but then I can already see people confusing it for the Central Line.
I think the underlying story, of issues raising capital is nearly as interesting as the stories about the lines, or lack thereof, themselves. I'm off now to explore what I can find out about Overend, Gurney & Co. :) ETA I have learned that OG&Co was a discount (wholesale) bank, that had been highly successful in the first half of the 19th century, as the world's greatest discount bank, which surely meant something 200 years ago at the height of the British empire, when America was a relative backwater, and Europe was ravaged by recurring wars. After Samuel Gurney (of the Gurney family who owned Gurney's Bank, which was separate from OG&Co) retired OG&Co took on more risky activities, including financing railways, and ultimately failed for similar reasons as banks including Halifax failed in 2008 - their loans/ assets were long term and their finance was short-term, so when credit dried up they became insolvent for lack of _liquid_ assets _i.e_ cash, not becuase they were actually unprofitable. .... Though the failure of railways, such as the London Central Railway, would likely have soon made them unprofitable too.
It could still be done...all that would be required is the will and the money. Unfortunately the British lack the former. The Swiss did it in Zurich when they built a new through station under the existing terminus to obviate the need for through expresses to reverse out of the Hauptbahnhof. Britain's not very good at that sort of joined up thinking though. Just look at the shambles of HS1 and HS2. They're not connected but terminate at two different stations several hundred yards apart meaning a change of train and station if you want to travel from Paris to Birmingham. That couldn't happen anywhere but the UK and given the ludicrous sums they're intending to spend on HS2 it makes me wonder if that sort of idiocy is deliberate! Building a through station underground to connect HS1 & 2 wouldn't have cost much more than what they spent on Waterloo, then St. Pancras and now intend to spend on Euston to accomodate international trains. You really couldn't make it up.
There was a proposal, from the 1930s when war was brewing, for a huge air-raid shelter under Hyde Park with tunnels leading to rail termini to facilitate evacuation.
It would be physically challenging and would take out central London, negating it’s purpose. The Elizabeth line is kind of doing the East-West direction, there is already a North -South line which joins London Bridge and St Pancras, although trains from other places also run over it.
For those of us who are not Londoners a map would make this more informative and interesting. A single picture being worth a thousand words, a long list of roads and stations really confuses more than it informs. But then, I have no idea why I am watching this from NZ.
The route from Euston + Euston Square is essentially a straight road south. Warren Street is a station about a couple of dozen yards west of Euston + Euston Square and from there the road that exists there today that goes south to Charing Cross/Trafalgar Square is essentially the route that was proposed here.
Even for us Londoners, a map would be really helpful.
Have a look for "North Western and Charing Cross Railway" on Wikipedia.
cartometro.com has geographically accurate tube maps. And there's always Google.
One trouble that might be awkward is that the tube map is schematic instead of geographically correct, thus it is the stops and the respective connections.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tube_map
I recently found your videos and I have been bingeing the tales of the tube series. They are excellent!
Me too! They are quite good
Me too!!!
Haven't we all
Ditto. These videos are a lot of fun.
I used the Tube a LOT as I used to be a temporary telephonist, (meaning standing in for holidays, pregnancy leave, sickness etc), I was at a new office almost every week, and they could be anywhere in London. I used to travel to the nearest tube station and then either walk or get a taxi to the office. It was good fun in those days, (late 70’s early 80’s) probably because I was young and carefree, apart from being broke most of the time, no pressure.
Seeing all these tube stations has the good memories (smells, sounds, warmth of the rush of air when the trains were due), all come flooding back.
I live in Scotland now.
Thank you
👍🏼✌️🌅
"When The Northern Line was almost not a Tube!"
If you get up to Birmingham, you might like to investigate the Duddeston Viaduct - well at least the half of it that was built ! I believe it was going to be a link between two railway companies (same old story!) but after 2 years of construction, was abandoned in favour of a completely different route. Even half complete, it is a significant construction that is not hard to spot for anyone looking for it. However, if you're not looking for it, it blends into the background quite well - and provides a roof over various sub-builds making use of the arches.
It's clear none of it saw railway track but the real puzzle is the fact that what has been built is in three parts (two and a tweenieth) - each being joined by a bridge over roads. Yet I suspect the bridges were never fitted either !
A very interesting series covering many obscure details which even as an ex Londoner, I didn't know about. The narrative is superb, well spoken and informative and nice to listen to. Also with a dash of irreverence and humour, very well done and thank you.
That 1 dislike is from the guy who thought of the northern line Charing Cross extension and got busted by you
Me at 5 year old would have loved watching this. However 33 year old me gets laughed at by my partner as I watch this whilst sipping gin! Nostalgia of growing up in London and wondering how, when, what! Good binge watching with a soothing voice
Try explaining to your wife that you watch Jelle's marbula1....
Ask her what she learned today...
Ask your partner to join you ;)
Having travelled these London Undeground and local railways for 32 years , this is very informative..well done
The LCR sounds like it was either inspired by or inspired the London Midland's underground section from Kentish Town to Moorgate and Blackfriars via Faringdon (joining the South-Eastern Railway at Blackfriars). In other words, this was the original Thameslink in many ways.
Very entertaining and informative. Plus! outstanding narration.
This one seemed like a struggle, but it turned out to be worth it. Thanks Jago.
I've watched a few of your videos. The end of this one made me subscribe!
Many thanks!
Love the 'mis-leading' titles. Your ones are so much better than some that are really mis-leading. Oh yes, good video and, like all this series, really interesting.
You've quickly got a new subscriber, I quite like your videos
If there was a link between the railways out of Euston and Charing Cross, just think how different those stations and routes might be. Direct train from Glasgow, Manchester, Edinburgh, Birmingham to Kent and beyond across the (a) link to France, but built maybe 50 years earlier. Makes you think about possibilities, if only!
You can do that already, but from Birmingham, you go down via Oxford / Reading / Basingstoke or Guildford rather than through London; or alternatively via the West London Line, like on the Milton Keynes to Croydon service, or the former Birmingham to Brighton service.
Or, alternatively, there is Thameslink.
@@katrinabryce those are all indirect routes, change at Reading, change at Paddington, underground to Charing Cross/Waterloo /London Bridge etc.
I used to live in Reading, i used the Reading to Birmingham services a few times; they are slow it tended to be quicker via London, despite the need to use the underground :(
@@prduguid What I mean is, that with existing tracks, you could route a train from the north to the south coast, and there are CrossCountry services that do that, or at least there were until about 18 months ago.
@@katrinabryce ahh, yes i see. Cross Country did run a service via Reading, Kensington Olympia to Brighton, but sadly that stopped a few years ago. Shame
@@prduguid Also, there is /was one train a day from Reading to Guildford (+ the half-hourly local trains), and hourly (I think now every 2 hours) to Southampton
Great vid, but the thing that struck me was the awesome weather! What a lovely day.
I was pretty lucky there.
So maybe this is more "Lines that were ahead of their time". I believe the tube lines followed the roads for similar reasons to the cut and cover lines; to avoid disturbing building foundations. Didn't Edward Watkin have a similar idea later for a surface line from Marylebone to Charing Cross with a "London Central" station in Hyde Park?!
The old ones followed the road because they dug a trench in the middle of the road, laid the track in the trench, then built a roof over it and relaid the road. The ability to drill tunnels through the ground without disturbing the surface came later.
I live in Seattle WA. We have a light rail system that in it's start was not popular at all. It was to go from downtown, through an economically depressed area called Rainer Valley and then cut to the airport south of the city. Turns out that since a lot if redevelopment in Rainer Valley made some people lots of money, enabled lots of new businesses to open and made the trip to the airport faster, the line became more popular. Then 10 years down the way they ran the line to the Capitol Hill neighborhood and the University of Washington. Now they are constructing lines to Bellevue, Redmond, North Gate mall and beyond. Everyone wants a line to there area now. Everyone wants to be in on the secret of where the next line will be so they can buy property on or near the line. The deals and closed door talks remind me of the stories you tell of the early days of the London rail. The really interesting thing is that one of the lines runs across a floating bridge. It is one of the few if not the only rail going across a span of almost three miles that floats on the water. I thought you would like that.
Just found your channel and subscribed. I'm assuming, given the 500 subscribers count, that you are a new channel. Good luck!
Good stuff
Please put maps on your videos. I love your history telling
Brilliant look at what never was.
Did wonder though however if there were any plans to create a southwest curve connecting mainline services at Charing Cross to Waterloo rather than just Waterloo East, because from Rail Map Online it appears there was previously old track and/or platforms at Waterloo whose northwest alignment could have potentially made that possible.
I think a line from the LBSCR at Victoria to the LNWR would have been more useful. Cross London through trains always seemed such a useful Idea but we managed without them for over 100 years. Now we have 4 (and about tu get a 4th)
Excellent stuff - I assume if this was built then the northern line but wouldn’t have been?
Surely the line from Farringdon through Snow Hill tunnel led directly north and south through central London would be the original line.
Wasn't the idea behind this railway was to cross London and aim toward Kent and a tunnel to France? I understand that the Great Central (heritage) Railway was the last bit of this line before the Beeching cuts.
Nice vid
I can't speculate on if the Charing Cross, Euston and Hampstead Railway copied the route of the London Central Railway, but it's interesting to note that originally Warren Street was known as Euston Street, and is still marked as such in the tiles of the southbound tunnel wall, at the north end of the platform, in the same way that Hampstead is still marked as Heath Street.
More tubes are needed. Tubes everywhere.
I think you should be pitching to Danny to take Simon's presentation job at Business Blaze.
It would have been useful in retrospect as another Thameslink style mainline route. Also of the view it would not have necessarily negated the existence of some Charing Cross Northern Line branch existing, in fact it may have been a good thing as an alternative route from Waterloo to Euston would have for example removed the need for the Piccadilly sub-branch to Aldwych. Not to mention as well plans IIRC for express Northern line route from Waterloo to Golders Green in the 1946 London Railway Plan (12A), would still allow for a route to parallel the real-life route alongside the alternate mainline tunnel.
Jago: At 1:02 there's an excellent old photograph. Did it have a caption when you found? I'd like a wee bit of detail please, if possible, starting with a date and location.
Hd this line been built as planned, it could be a useful partner to the Thameslink route today, probably a very, very busy line. It might even have become something similar to what Watkin had hoped for, a Manchester - Paris main line??😁
Wow, how different London would be if we had trains crossing The Stand at street level. As these would be mainline trains, I assume the cut and cover tunnels would have to have been built much larger to cope with the taller/wider trains.
Victorian Crossrail/Thameslink.
Wait, wouldn’t that title go to Thameslink itself? 🤔
As a boston kid. We had the first subway in the us and its intresting to me how london was the first subway in the world.
It would have made a massive difference if they had run overground trains through kings cross and on underground through central and through to and on to stations passed Waterloo . It would have taken serious bottlenecks at change overs to and from underground stations. Like the what has been done in Tokyo
To echo kevin rogan’s comments re a map, it might be worth looking at some of martin zeros videos about the manchester waterways and seeing how he handles it.
Great video. At 3:19, what underground stock is that to the left of the steam loco?
I believe that is A03 stock - really early District trains.
"Lines that sort of were but weren't" doesn't quite roll off the tongue.
I might have to work on that one...
40 years late, & 40 feet deeper
Did I see the Chigley train during that video?
I think an early Thameslink would have been good and saved plenty of hastle.
Thameslink is actually super-old. It got shut down for decades and revived in more recent times. It wasn't originally called Thameslink, of course. I don't know the original name.
Cool
Interesting to see how London developed....
Great tube videos! You should do a collab with Geoff Marshall!
dbc55 Geoff Marshall is a sociopathic narcissist. A collaboration wouldn't work.
You're like a cross between Potholer54 and Geoff Marshall. :)
I am not familiar with Potholer54, will have to check them out.
@@JagoHazzard he has nothing to do with trains but your narration style reminds me of him a lot. He is also brilliant.
Northern line, Charing cross branch.
While the London Central Railway never happened, the Central London Railway did - on what is now today's Central Line. I bet that would have confused a lot of people!
Woooooo
Wasn’t one of the 7 dwarves called Snappy? Sort of well dressed, or am I making that up?
i suppose the point here is that it wouldnt have been a line for londoners per se, but more a main line through route in order to save passengers from having to change trains
Map graphics please ... otherwise one must pause video & Google / Map search everything ... which is fine ... but you know, you do ask for suggestions.
So there's talk of splitting the Northern Line into two separate lines when the Power Station Extension is finished. I WANT to say let's name it the London Central Line but then I can already see people confusing it for the Central Line.
Tartarian architecture channel is good 👍🏻
So, no connection with the Central London Railway (aka Central Line). (Notwithstanding that Jago misspeaks at 5:12 and calls it Central London...)
I think the underlying story, of issues raising capital is nearly as interesting as the stories about the lines, or lack thereof, themselves. I'm off now to explore what I can find out about Overend, Gurney & Co. :)
ETA I have learned that OG&Co was a discount (wholesale) bank, that had been highly successful in the first half of the 19th century, as the world's greatest discount bank, which surely meant something 200 years ago at the height of the British empire, when America was a relative backwater, and Europe was ravaged by recurring wars. After Samuel Gurney (of the Gurney family who owned Gurney's Bank, which was separate from OG&Co) retired OG&Co took on more risky activities, including financing railways, and ultimately failed for similar reasons as banks including Halifax failed in 2008 - their loans/ assets were long term and their finance was short-term, so when credit dried up they became insolvent for lack of _liquid_ assets _i.e_ cash, not becuase they were actually unprofitable. .... Though the failure of railways, such as the London Central Railway, would likely have soon made them unprofitable too.
A Victorian Crossrail?
👏👏
' Lines that nearly weren't ' maybe? ;)
Good video, but anyone got a map for non Londoners? ;-)
Based
👏🏽
Suppose London had one through station instead of eight terminals.
It could still be done...all that would be required is the will and the money. Unfortunately the British lack the former. The Swiss did it in Zurich when they built a new through station under the existing terminus to obviate the need for through expresses to reverse out of the Hauptbahnhof. Britain's not very good at that sort of joined up thinking though. Just look at the shambles of HS1 and HS2. They're not connected but terminate at two different stations several hundred yards apart meaning a change of train and station if you want to travel from Paris to Birmingham. That couldn't happen anywhere but the UK and given the ludicrous sums they're intending to spend on HS2 it makes me wonder if that sort of idiocy is deliberate! Building a through station underground to connect HS1 & 2 wouldn't have cost much more than what they spent on Waterloo, then St. Pancras and now intend to spend on Euston to accomodate international trains. You really couldn't make it up.
There was a proposal, from the 1930s when war was brewing, for a huge air-raid shelter under Hyde Park with tunnels leading to rail termini to facilitate evacuation.
It would be physically challenging and would take out central London, negating it’s purpose. The Elizabeth line is kind of doing the East-West direction, there is already a North -South line which joins London Bridge and St Pancras, although trains from other places also run over it.
Anyone else annoyed at 5:11 where the woman crossing the road does so square into the path of the cameraman?
Banksters again!