Tifo at its best. I'm now fully armed and ready to sound not like the simpleton I am but instead like an absolute Leeds expert and tactical master down the pub tonight.
@@micgreenson7308 Glory glory liverpooooooollllll, I support them bc when I was a lad they were the best team in the land. Some of us discuss football outside the big six matey 😮
I really like the use of game-state analysis in this video. That gave me a really clear picture about how Leeds deal with momentum, and momentum shifts, something I think is a really important context for understanding teams. Would be pleased to see more of that.
@@aadesh7 I feel as though it's depressing on 2 levels - the first is the actual football and the second is that we know this is how Marsch wants us to play and therefore it isn't likely to get any better (which leads into the fact that the board knew how Marsch wanted to play before giving him the job and therefore they apparently want us to play this way too)
@@PeteSasqwax 100% .. its completely drab football. Nobody wants to hold possession and when they have possession they don’t know what to do with it. The forwards behave like pressing midfielders. Just aimlessly pressing. And lets not get started about the team selections. Why in the blue hell does Greenwood start ahead of proven talents like Geldhart!? It blows my mind. Its painful thinking about what it has come to since the high flying Bielsa days.
I think I know the answer to this one... in Marsch's last 3 jobs, he had an unlimited supply of Red Bull available to his team. Whereas at Leeds it's nothing but Yorkshire Gold or Leeds Pale... no wonder the team can't play with the same intensity...
I think the most effective and exciting part of our game under Bielsa was the attacking phase, more often using the wide areas, particularly the combination play between full back, winger and central midfielder.
It comes down to 3 things for me: lack of finishing, lack of recovery pace on defense, and lack of discipline/marking errors. The nature of Leeds press is that it relies on the entire team being dialed in and focused, not missing their triggers and it hasn't happened lately. The finishing hasn't been good for Leeds either. And the defense played an effective offside trap vs Chelsea which has disappeared lately, and they aren't quick enough to contain opposition forwards 1v1
@dau1024 You are entirely correct. Your post shows you are one of the few that really watches all of their matches. TifoIRL is awesome at examining tactical strategies, but lousy at criticizing the individual players. He could have said, "Leeds' center backs do not have the talent, ability or naus to defend direct long balls against elite EPL forwards, and Bamford is rusty and cannot score goals or penalty shots well at the moment. Leeds need to make big moves in the winter transfer window to improve these positions if they want to survive. Is the goalie really good enough in shot stopping and assertive enough to command the defense in front of him?" I guess he does not want to hurt feelings.
@@azaz8076 Agreed with all apart from Meslier, he's been great for us. Would change entire back four before thinking about his position, he has attribures to become a top keeper and is getting consistant game time at young age.
For me as a Leeds fan I think it just simply comes down to the tactics not working in the prem. From watching every game I can see that we do look good from an attacking point of view however our defence is not fit for this system. Our defenders are decent however they do not have the recovery pace for when we are cut open. I also think the system shuts down when we have attacked for so long that the oppositions defence becomes so congested to the point where we cant break through and score, this leads to us becoming predictable and wasting and turning over possession for the other team to counter attack.
Marsh is the ultimate prodigy of Raignick counter-pressing football. However this style have been neutralized and not as effective as it used to be. Nagelsmann moved away from it and Marsch’s own failure at RB Leizig also proved that.
The big issue is the shambolic transfer windows by the board since we got promoted - people will point at we made signings but we needed a LB, CDM, CAM and at least a fairly able striker. This was not done and after last season this was utter failure and negligence by the board. There are some issues with tactics, subs and some of the existing players just don't have it - there is still a love in for our 'championship players' who in the light of day were pushed up majorly by Bielsa, this was not sustainable - hence we needed a major squad refresh.
Acknowledging the fact that Aaronson, Roca and Adams might not be the AM and CDM's you could've hoped for, I find it hard to believe that it could've been much better or that you could've recieved more backing in a post-covid window. And isn't Pascal Struijk one of your best performing players? You got a young talented squad, and the drop-down to championship might actually benefit them... And then I'll hope you'll be back the following year ;)
I would think that Aaronson, Roca and Adams are all upgrades to what you had there previously and they all have done well for what is their first season in the new league...but i agree that the "championship" players are the real problem here and its obvious that the squad quality is not there...you cant buy a whole new squad in a single window...i wish you persist with Marsch because the team is still playing/fighting more competitively than they did under Bielsa's last season
We bought 2 CDMs and a CAM in Aaronson but Sinisterra can also play there and they also happen to have been our best players this season. No striker and LB are big blunders but acting like we haven’t bolstered midfield is just wrong
@@godisdeadist Struijk is meant to be a CB but is having to cover LB because Firpo is awful. If we had a better LB with a CB pairing of Struijk and Koch our defence would be much better
Interesting and informative analysis, yes, but completely lacking in actual team assessment, and so it is at best incomplete and therefore, largely useless. Just as are so many of the predictably droll comments in this section. The premise and title of the video itself are laughable. There's nothing wrong with Jesse Marsch at Leeds that some improved player performance can't fix, and the tactics have little to do with it. To that end, tactical analysis if you have played and/or coached it not that tough to do, and you can make it look really intelligent with the latest techie graphics and talking real fast. But without going up and down the squad and speaking to strengths and weaknesses of players, (ie, QUALITY) any analysis is hollow. For example, Give Marsch a real striker that scores goals and all of this is rendered nonsensical. A more contextualised analysis would have been to add in particular weaknesses and then look which player is mostly responsible in that part of the pitch and look at how a better player reacts to such and such tactical situation. The bottom line is if Leeds had a Guimares (38mil)playing the 10, or a Jesus (58mil) at striker, or Zinchenko (29mil) at LB they would be pushing for Europe while playing these tactics. Or, even more simply, if Bamford buried only a handful of his Prem-leading NINE missed big chances, the same: upper mid table pushing for Europe. The conclusion is that tweaks are needed in the system not because the system is flawed, but because the personnel are lacking to maximise its potential. And, yes, that better players are still needed, but that can't all happen in one window, like Forest bringing in 22 players---a disaster. So yes, fun video for the novice to understand the tactical system, but for arguing--much less proving---that Jesse Marsch isn't working at Leeds, well, the Liverpool match demonstrated what happens when players actually perform as a unit and as individuals. It takes time. And it takes talent---which Leeds need more of as they phase out the Championship players and continue to bring in upgrades. That's why it's called a "project." Love that away shirt. MOT
Having watched Leeds versus Arsenal, I got the impression that they were the better team, but that this pretty much only was due to having an insane intensity, an intensity that - simply put - is no way near sustainable over several games, and which I there and then conjectured would result in that they’d struggle the next matchday. They lost their next game, against Leicester. I suspect that pressing teams have to reconfigure and become more controlling possession teams if they want to remain competitive at the upper ends of the table, because controlling games through intensity, pressing alone seems to just wear players down, gobbling up players through amassing injuries (assets for the club), and creating inevitable, steep dips in form.
15:02 This doesn't make sense. You already said earlier in the video that Leeds' attacking play falters when the opposition sits deep. Why would them sitting deep two goals up be different?
There's no denying we play pretty good against the top sides, i know Liverpool are in a slump and meslier had a sunrun but that's Chelsea arsenal and Liverpool we have absolutely bossed in a short window. ALAW
Here after winning 2 since this video was made, and sitting mid table. Have Leeds made changes since your analysis? Would be cool to see the contrast and changes they’ve made. Thanks for the great content!
What a load of rubbish. You start out making it sound like Leeds is ONLY winning against miserable sides and you completely fail to mention (until 6:33 because well ... the truth) how Leeds FC has been winning and/or being a real threat against top sides. With just a few changed VAR calls or a few players converting some easy chances Leeds FC would comfortably be a mid table side (or higher). They are CREATING MANY chances. The system is working. Your analysis is naive and pretending to be tactical and informed. Just listen to the players. THEY CONTINUE TO BELIEVE. Not to mention Leeds has a game in hand AGAINST Nottingham Forest. If they took 3 points from this (as they are favoured) they'd be 11/12th in the Table and would you even be making this poorly thought out video? And your whole bit on "game state" is statistically irrelevant given the small numbers associated with your "states". Proper statistics anyone?
Love this. Really comes down to a team that wants to counter attack/create off turnovers. If turnovers don’t come or the other team just sits back and makes them break down a low block they can’t.
I remember in my FIFA 22 save for Leeds in my 2nd season now; didn't sell Phillips (Sold Raphinia) but one of my first transfer goals was obtaining proper fullbacks, a proper CDM (Onana from Lille) and a future replacement for Rodrigo (Octavian Popescu?). Also sold Cooper and traded Koch for Kristoffer Ajer from Brentford (not a bad deal imo as I like CBs with pace). Because the squad I inherited was just under-par to really compete. IRL it still is. Leeds have a team that isn't terrible but not great, injuries and lacking squad depth. Playing an LCB at LB isn't ideal. Harrison might end up joining Newcastle by next year. Bamford is talented but injury prone. Some great new players but probably not enough to avoid a relegation battle.
This is great. But maybe overanalyzed. Nobody can finish. Few defenders on Leeds roster can stop other teams from finishing. The team is lacking in talent in several key positions. That’s it. Marsch may be a fraud, or maybe he’s a decent Prem level manager, with a crap squad.
This system is so uneasily undone with apparently no plan B. Add to that, our forwards - particularly Bamford - inability to score and this is a recipe for relegation.
they constantly show a good performance against big clubs, like they did against arsenal and chelsea. This represents that their tactical potential is very high.
Absolute gold. Great analysis. Its so interesting to see different styles of play work or fail depending on the approach of the opposition. Will the 'philosophy' approach be over taken by teams flexible enough to adapt the perfect counter tactic to whomever they are playing?
The two things Leeds simply had to do was massively strengthen their backline and sign a striker, they did neither. if don't address this is January they are getting relegated
Which player would you like us to buy who would have picked up Harvey Barnes and not left him entirely unmarked? The same happened against Brighton. John shows it in the video. Do yourself a favour and watch it. Who's good enough to sprint over to press on the left *and* get across and mark the guy on the right?
@@ardentspy Those types of attacks come from the fullbacks being so high in the counter-press. Drop the press back to the halfway line and pick up possession there. Also has the benefit of limiting those long diagonals into space.
Is this just observed or have you talked to the manager or attended training sessions; it would be good to hear what Jesse thinks of this summation. They looked doomed to me at the moment though
The Red Bull style is not a secret. Jesse would agree with this summation although he probably hasn't thought it through in this detail because he appears not to have a clue about football. But this is how Hassenhuetl likes to play as well and how Rangnick, who invented it, plays.
@@ardentspy Hassenhutl has moved away from the Red Bull style this season at Southampton and is playing a far less aggressive pressing, more possession based brand of football.
@@rafekatchadorian465 eh, kinda but not really. Bielsa has a very intense man to man press around the pitch and marsch has a more refined press usually with the front line dropping off and waiting for a pressing trigger before committing higher.
Bamford is a huge problem. 9 big chances missed, 0 goals. Almost entirely thanks to him Leeds have the 4th worst ratio of goals to big chances missed in the PL at 1.307, with Bamford contributing 9 of the 17 they've missed. If he'd even scored two of those 9 big chances missed, Leeds would shift from the 4th worst to 8th worst in that stat. after one season of impressive form he's gone back to the striker that at least in goalscoring terms looked out of depth in the championship.
I still don't get why they even hired him in the first place. Coached the worst Salzburg team I've seen in the Bundesliga in many years and was a total disaster in Leipzig. Perfect example of failing upwards.
Just a thought.. With the "system coaches", could it be that people may disproportionately associate a team's failings to the players' ability? Whereby it is assumed that should the "system coach" be given access to "better" players, the system would work?
@@lukemclellan2141 It's an interesting question. Leeds currently have two sets of fans. One thinks Marsch is a clever tactician being let down because Leeds only spent a hundred mill on players and it just wasn't enough. Other sides with the same resources beat us and we were robbed because we didn't buy world-class defenders. The other has a clue about football and knows bad when they see it. You get it even in the comment section on this video, which is actually kind to Marsch, where John shows that it doesn't matter who the defenders are, we'd still give away the same goals against teams like Leicester, who simply had the simple good sense to cross the ball to the totally unmarked player in our box, and that totally unmarked player will always exist so the defence *has to* trap the opposition and hope they don't the ability to pass quickly. Which might work in Austria, where teams are pedestrian and awful, but in England, well, good luck.
Jon, the TifoIRL presenter, forgot to mention solutions to make the system work. Specifically, upgrades at center back to players that can aggressively win and clear incoming direct long ball plays. Also, and obviously, a new center forward since Bamford is rusty, not converting chances or penalties, and is injury prone. Is the goalie really a good shot stopper or assertive enough to command the defense in front of him? Do the Leeds owners have good enough recruiting/scouting staff and the money to upgrade during the December transfer window?
I feel like Newcastle have a somewhat similar problem but to a significantly lesser extent. They've got a similar pattern of getting good results against top teams and relatively underwhelming results against Bournemouth, Palace and Wolves. Albeit Newcastle seem to have the quality to a) not ship goals against the relatively weaker teams and b) get a breakthrough with a piece of individual skill like against Forrest.
We should’ve won the palace game if not for a mindblowing VAR decision, Wolves we just started slow in the first half + Wolves where actually playing decent football and had more possession
@@olliem99 yeah I don't disagree with us being unlucky early in the season in a couple games, and any draw is for sure going to hinge on a few key moments, but given the results against Spurs and Man City we potentially should be hammering a Palace or a Wolves to the point where one bad decision shouldn't matter. (A lot of teams have been inconsistent this season so I think that's part of it). And I think Howe (as compared to Marsch) is much better at only using counter-pressing when it's advantageous to Newcastle, though this is mostly due to Newcastle by having better players and more options than Leeds. But the limitations of counter-pressing that are highlighted are systemic and it's somewhat important for us as fans not to get frustrated if we don't look quite so 'on the front foot' against a mid or lower table team as we do against a City or a Spurs.
As an American gunner (release the hounds....) Leeds under Marsch remind me of Arsenal (or Brighton) of the last few seasons. Good at creating chances at both ends of the pitch, but lacking finishing. Jon's analysis is clearly much better than mine, but FWIW, the biggest issue does seem to be personnel: Raphina is gone and Bamford is a shadow of his 20/21 self. Thoroughly enjoyed the Game State deep dive, but I think all the conversations would be different if even 20% more of their (big only) chances were converted. They just can't score when they're in good positions. Anyway, as an American but also a fan of the style of play, I hope they give Marsch more time, if only because (unlike Villa) it's difficult to think of who could convert this squad into higher performers (unless Orta could somehow hypnotize Poch).
The most interesting takeaway is Leeds can hang with the elite clubs but struggle against their peers in the table. One obvious problem early in the season was Marsch's substitution strategy which contributed to fading in the second half. He was reactive and late, especially against Southampton in the heat. All 5 subs need to make an impact. Tactically he needs a bit of Graham Potter flexibility. Leeds has bottom half talent - with a few notable exceptions- and mid table potential. But Leeds doesn't have a lot of room for error. The new substitution rules could use the Tifo treatment- who has benefitted?
Normally when Jon talks about the underlying numbers, he's talking about xG for and against, and who is under or overperforming, so would these count as the underlying underlying numbers?
xGD in a drawing state 12th. Fulham, -0.16 13th. Everton, -0.31 14th. Villa, -0.32 15th. Bournemouth, -0.35 16th. Liverpool, -0.35 17th. Leeds, -0.39 18th. Palace, -0.43 19th. Saints, -0.53 20th. Forest, -0.53 out of the bottom 9, you'd expect them all to be there except Liverpool what exactly do you expect from Leeds and Marsch, they're a bottom half team performing like one, he's just lost Raphinha & Phillips and hasn't had a third of a season yet
Ummm … the main thesis here is already total bullocks. Leeds fc has not lost to ANY of the teams in the bottom 7 positions. All this analysis and already the main points are irrelevant. Nice try!
The main thing I’ve always seen (get ready for some cutting tactical analysis) is that they lack someone to stick the ball in the net. Bamford would be just about passable if he was never an a jury doubt, having to carry an already profligate striker as he regains form is too much for a team without deadly wings or midfield.
How come you and me and thousands of LUFC fans can see what's going wrong but the board and coaches can't or they are and can't afford or won't change things.
the theory is fine and would work if we had : A individual fitness B skills necessary for the Premiership. If we are playing the likes of Firpo who doesn't have A and B. Bamford who is A...the list goes on. In the Premiership you cant afford to have any players in either of these categories but we have half the team who are just not good enough.
Klopp uses something similar, how you think he made it work? was it simply that he works with different class of players entirely to carry out such an offensive proactive plan of attack
This guy helped hound Bielsa out last season and was in cahoots with the awful Smytty who was pushing the idea we were gonna do a Sheffield United from the start of the season. The best way to fix the problems is for everyone to ignore these egomaniac Leeds fans who are all about themselves and get Bielsa back.
Seems odd he mentioned the big chances they give up but not the big chances missed which they gotta be up there Bamford has like 10 big chances missed alone this season 😂
This video isn't outdated. At 6:33 he literally say that Leed's approach is working well against the big sides that they wouldn't normally be expected to beat (yeah, yeah, hurr durr liverpool is midtable not a big side...). Beating Liverpool at Anfield literally proves his point. Did any of you watch the video?
i think you also have to consider the players he has at his disposal, he came in to a bad team fighting relegation, lost his best two players and had his only striker injured for most of this season. Surely Leeds were expected to be struggling a bit this season
Despite losing Kalvin Phillips and Raphina, the players hes recruited fit Marsch's philosophy really well (if anything better than the two who moved on). The one missing piece being the striker. these players brought in for big money represent the football marsch wants to play. and it's been shown up
@@GranmargYGO that's fair enough but it's a pretty tough job to implement a new system with a mix of his players and the ones left over from a very specialist bielsa squad in such a short time. Personally I would lean towards letting him try to build something rather than starting again and risking getting stuck in a rotating managers cycle
@@GranmargYGO There were multiple missing pieces after utter idiocy by the Leeds board - LB, CDM, CAM and at least one striker. Not 70 million signings, just sensible transfers that other clubs are capable of. It took us 9 transfer windows to actually sign a CDM, the championship players we have are burnt out - a side effect of Bielsa I'm afraid. They had to play 100% for 90+ minutes and the training caused injuries - the squad needed a complete refresh front to back and it wasn't
The "bad team fighting for relegation" finished 9th the season before. And this is not just the same badge, but the exact same players. He may have lost his best two players - one of whom barely played due to injuries - but they got wildly overpayed for them. Phillips for 42 m and Raphinha for 60 plus is a fleecing. And with that money the squad was much strengthened. Kristensen, Adams, Roca, Sinisterra, Aaronson were all bought with that money and came straight into the starting XI. After Marsch came in late last season, they beat Norwich, Wolves, Watford and Brentford, drew against Brighton and Palace and lost to Arsenal, Chelsea and Man City. Sure, nobody expected them to qualify for Europe, but I don't think anybody expected them to collect 2 points in 2 months.
@@phileast1654 Well if it's a "pretty tough job", maybe, just maybe, it would have been better not to play in that way. Sweet god. You'd think that it was mandatory for us to play this dogshit instead of a choice.
To answer the question posed at the end, I don't think that this playing style is a particularly good one for a team with a low budget and lesser depth compared to other EPL sides. I think they have gotten unlucky with some poor finishing and don't deserve to be in the relegation zone, but I don't see this playing style working out unless they invest more money into the squad this January. Generally I think that a team in Leeds position should be trying to play a more defensive style as they haven't got any good strikers.
Tifo at its best. I'm now fully armed and ready to sound not like the simpleton I am but instead like an absolute Leeds expert and tactical master down the pub tonight.
Bit sad but each to their own
Did you see that ludicrous display last night?
@@hardy_har See the problem with Leeds is they always try to run it in
@@micgreenson7308 Glory glory liverpooooooollllll, I support them bc when I was a lad they were the best team in the land. Some of us discuss football outside the big six matey 😮
@@whittaboi ??
I really like the use of game-state analysis in this video. That gave me a really clear picture about how Leeds deal with momentum, and momentum shifts, something I think is a really important context for understanding teams. Would be pleased to see more of that.
Be interested to see the game states for each of the last two seasons too
@@liamcowling9906 maybe if you looked at multiple seasons you'd get enough data for this kind of analysis to actually mean something 🤣
Excellent video, Jon. Will you be doing another on how to solve our problems in the PL? Asking for Jesse Marsch
leeds players dont fit his system
Bamford can't finish in a prostitute
@@ektran4205 he has bought alot of those players
@@joeycullagh123 he only bought 5 players most of the roster are bielsa's players
This is a very good analysis. You have understood the problem better than the entire coaching staff at Leeds.
😂 upsettingly true
@@PeteSasqwaxyea man. Its depressing to watch Leeds at the moment.
@@aadesh7 I feel as though it's depressing on 2 levels - the first is the actual football and the second is that we know this is how Marsch wants us to play and therefore it isn't likely to get any better (which leads into the fact that the board knew how Marsch wanted to play before giving him the job and therefore they apparently want us to play this way too)
@@PeteSasqwax 100% .. its completely drab football. Nobody wants to hold possession and when they have possession they don’t know what to do with it. The forwards behave like pressing midfielders. Just aimlessly pressing. And lets not get started about the team selections. Why in the blue hell does Greenwood start ahead of proven talents like Geldhart!? It blows my mind. Its painful thinking about what it has come to since the high flying Bielsa days.
Its crazy that people really believe that
I think I know the answer to this one... in Marsch's last 3 jobs, he had an unlimited supply of Red Bull available to his team. Whereas at Leeds it's nothing but Yorkshire Gold or Leeds Pale... no wonder the team can't play with the same intensity...
Brenden Aaronson and Tyler Adams on red bull would probably explode
I think the most effective and exciting part of our game under Bielsa was the attacking phase, more often using the wide areas, particularly the combination play between full back, winger and central midfielder.
It comes down to 3 things for me: lack of finishing, lack of recovery pace on defense, and lack of discipline/marking errors. The nature of Leeds press is that it relies on the entire team being dialed in and focused, not missing their triggers and it hasn't happened lately. The finishing hasn't been good for Leeds either. And the defense played an effective offside trap vs Chelsea which has disappeared lately, and they aren't quick enough to contain opposition forwards 1v1
The missed chances have been abysmal this season. The forwards seem to choke everytime they have a chance to score.
@dau1024 You are entirely correct. Your post shows you are one of the few that really watches all of their matches.
TifoIRL is awesome at examining tactical strategies, but lousy at criticizing the individual players. He could have said, "Leeds' center backs do not have the talent, ability or naus to defend direct long balls against elite EPL forwards, and Bamford is rusty and cannot score goals or penalty shots well at the moment. Leeds need to make big moves in the winter transfer window to improve these positions if they want to survive. Is the goalie really good enough in shot stopping and assertive enough to command the defense in front of him?"
I guess he does not want to hurt feelings.
@@azaz8076 Agreed with all apart from Meslier, he's been great for us. Would change entire back four before thinking about his position, he has attribures to become a top keeper and is getting consistant game time at young age.
For me as a Leeds fan I think it just simply comes down to the tactics not working in the prem. From watching every game I can see that we do look good from an attacking point of view however our defence is not fit for this system. Our defenders are decent however they do not have the recovery pace for when we are cut open. I also think the system shuts down when we have attacked for so long that the oppositions defence becomes so congested to the point where we cant break through and score, this leads to us becoming predictable and wasting and turning over possession for the other team to counter attack.
Aged well
Marsh is the ultimate prodigy of Raignick counter-pressing football. However this style have been neutralized and not as effective as it used to be.
Nagelsmann moved away from it and Marsch’s own failure at RB Leizig also proved that.
Let's be honest, Marsch wasn't given nearly enough time to be able to rectify or move away from that style.
The big issue is the shambolic transfer windows by the board since we got promoted - people will point at we made signings but we needed a LB, CDM, CAM and at least a fairly able striker. This was not done and after last season this was utter failure and negligence by the board. There are some issues with tactics, subs and some of the existing players just don't have it - there is still a love in for our 'championship players' who in the light of day were pushed up majorly by Bielsa, this was not sustainable - hence we needed a major squad refresh.
Acknowledging the fact that Aaronson, Roca and Adams might not be the AM and CDM's you could've hoped for, I find it hard to believe that it could've been much better or that you could've recieved more backing in a post-covid window.
And isn't Pascal Struijk one of your best performing players?
You got a young talented squad, and the drop-down to championship might actually benefit them... And then I'll hope you'll be back the following year ;)
I would think that Aaronson, Roca and Adams are all upgrades to what you had there previously and they all have done well for what is their first season in the new league...but i agree that the "championship" players are the real problem here and its obvious that the squad quality is not there...you cant buy a whole new squad in a single window...i wish you persist with Marsch because the team is still playing/fighting more competitively than they did under Bielsa's last season
We bought 2 CDMs and a CAM in Aaronson but Sinisterra can also play there and they also happen to have been our best players this season.
No striker and LB are big blunders but acting like we haven’t bolstered midfield is just wrong
@@godisdeadist Struijk is meant to be a CB but is having to cover LB because Firpo is awful. If we had a better LB with a CB pairing of Struijk and Koch our defence would be much better
Aged well mate
Interesting and informative analysis, yes, but completely lacking in actual team assessment, and so it is at best incomplete and therefore, largely useless. Just as are so many of the predictably droll comments in this section.
The premise and title of the video itself are laughable. There's nothing wrong with Jesse Marsch at Leeds that some improved player performance can't fix, and the tactics have little to do with it.
To that end, tactical analysis if you have played and/or coached it not that tough to do, and you can make it look really intelligent with the latest techie graphics and talking real fast. But without going up and down the squad and speaking to strengths and weaknesses of players, (ie, QUALITY) any analysis is hollow.
For example, Give Marsch a real striker that scores goals and all of this is rendered nonsensical. A more contextualised analysis would have been to add in particular weaknesses and then look which player is mostly responsible in that part of the pitch and look at how a better player reacts to such and such tactical situation.
The bottom line is if Leeds had a Guimares (38mil)playing the 10, or a Jesus (58mil) at striker, or Zinchenko (29mil) at LB they would be pushing for Europe while playing these tactics. Or, even more simply, if Bamford buried only a handful of his Prem-leading NINE missed big chances, the same: upper mid table pushing for Europe.
The conclusion is that tweaks are needed in the system not because the system is flawed, but because the personnel are lacking to maximise its potential. And, yes, that better players are still needed, but that can't all happen in one window, like Forest bringing in 22 players---a disaster.
So yes, fun video for the novice to understand the tactical system, but for arguing--much less proving---that Jesse Marsch isn't working at Leeds, well, the Liverpool match demonstrated what happens when players actually perform as a unit and as individuals.
It takes time. And it takes talent---which Leeds need more of as they phase out the Championship players and continue to bring in upgrades. That's why it's called a "project."
Love that away shirt. MOT
Brilliant timing
Having watched Leeds versus Arsenal, I got the impression that they were the better team, but that this pretty much only was due to having an insane intensity, an intensity that - simply put - is no way near sustainable over several games, and which I there and then conjectured would result in that they’d struggle the next matchday. They lost their next game, against Leicester. I suspect that pressing teams have to reconfigure and become more controlling possession teams if they want to remain competitive at the upper ends of the table, because controlling games through intensity, pressing alone seems to just wear players down, gobbling up players through amassing injuries (assets for the club), and creating inevitable, steep dips in form.
You mean we should play like we did under Bielsa?
15:02
This doesn't make sense. You already said earlier in the video that Leeds' attacking play falters when the opposition sits deep. Why would them sitting deep two goals up be different?
There's no denying we play pretty good against the top sides, i know Liverpool are in a slump and meslier had a sunrun but that's Chelsea arsenal and Liverpool we have absolutely bossed in a short window. ALAW
I would like to see more analysis focusing on the metrics of chances created. There is more to dig into there. Love the analysis!
Good timing on this
Here after winning 2 since this video was made, and sitting mid table. Have Leeds made changes since your analysis? Would be cool to see the contrast and changes they’ve made. Thanks for the great content!
Sacked now
@@r3zaful Yeah, apparently only got worse. Lol
What a load of rubbish. You start out making it sound like Leeds is ONLY winning against miserable sides and you completely fail to mention (until 6:33 because well ... the truth) how Leeds FC has been winning and/or being a real threat against top sides. With just a few changed VAR calls or a few players converting some easy chances Leeds FC would comfortably be a mid table side (or higher). They are CREATING MANY chances. The system is working. Your analysis is naive and pretending to be tactical and informed. Just listen to the players. THEY CONTINUE TO BELIEVE. Not to mention Leeds has a game in hand AGAINST Nottingham Forest. If they took 3 points from this (as they are favoured) they'd be 11/12th in the Table and would you even be making this poorly thought out video? And your whole bit on "game state" is statistically irrelevant given the small numbers associated with your "states". Proper statistics anyone?
This aged well. Won the last two exciting games.
Love this. Really comes down to a team that wants to counter attack/create off turnovers.
If turnovers don’t come or the other team just sits back and makes them break down a low block they can’t.
Similar problem with Liverpool, too.
Yep. Good for beating the top teams, non functional against the lower ones.
Exceptional analysis, thank you 🙏
I remember in my FIFA 22 save for Leeds in my 2nd season now; didn't sell Phillips (Sold Raphinia) but one of my first transfer goals was obtaining proper fullbacks, a proper CDM (Onana from Lille) and a future replacement for Rodrigo (Octavian Popescu?). Also sold Cooper and traded Koch for Kristoffer Ajer from Brentford (not a bad deal imo as I like CBs with pace). Because the squad I inherited was just under-par to really compete.
IRL it still is. Leeds have a team that isn't terrible but not great, injuries and lacking squad depth. Playing an LCB at LB isn't ideal. Harrison might end up joining Newcastle by next year. Bamford is talented but injury prone. Some great new players but probably not enough to avoid a relegation battle.
Marsch and Leeds aren’t working? Tell that to Liverpool. 😎 MOT
this aged rather well
So, losing quality and not replacing it has very little to do with it? Got it.
This is great. But maybe overanalyzed. Nobody can finish. Few defenders on Leeds roster can stop other teams from finishing. The team is lacking in talent in several key positions. That’s it. Marsch may be a fraud, or maybe he’s a decent Prem level manager, with a crap squad.
This video is outdated a day later
One of the best data dives of XG I’ve seen!
What does the pro-Liverpool Tifo say about Leeds now?
This system is so uneasily undone with apparently no plan B. Add to that, our forwards - particularly Bamford - inability to score and this is a recipe for relegation.
This aged very well
the fact that chelsea got destroyed by this team shows why tuchel's sacking was actually a good move.
It wasn't
It would have been if there were better options
He's just said that Leeds play really well against the big sides?
they constantly show a good performance against big clubs, like they did against arsenal and chelsea. This represents that their tactical potential is very high.
@@s._.ushitrash No it doesn't. Did you watch the video at all?
It might not be working but it's really fun for the neutral to watch. The last half of the Arsenal game was really good.
good timing on the video I think Jesse Marsch must have watched this 😂
Very good insight. Great work sir 👏🏼
Absolute gold. Great analysis. Its so interesting to see different styles of play work or fail depending on the approach of the opposition. Will the 'philosophy' approach be over taken by teams flexible enough to adapt the perfect counter tactic to whomever they are playing?
"They just beat Liverpool" ...Is there a worse flex than that
HUGE WIN!!!
The two things Leeds simply had to do was massively strengthen their backline and sign a striker, they did neither. if don't address this is January they are getting relegated
Which player would you like us to buy who would have picked up Harvey Barnes and not left him entirely unmarked? The same happened against Brighton. John shows it in the video. Do yourself a favour and watch it. Who's good enough to sprint over to press on the left *and* get across and mark the guy on the right?
@@ardentspy Those types of attacks come from the fullbacks being so high in the counter-press. Drop the press back to the halfway line and pick up possession there. Also has the benefit of limiting those long diagonals into space.
@@marrked646 yep like it
This aged well. 😂 the team doesn’t have good enough players overall. Simple enough
Watching john blossoming over the last few months has been lovely
Is this just observed or have you talked to the manager or attended training sessions; it would be good to hear what Jesse thinks of this summation. They looked doomed to me at the moment though
The Red Bull style is not a secret. Jesse would agree with this summation although he probably hasn't thought it through in this detail because he appears not to have a clue about football. But this is how Hassenhuetl likes to play as well and how Rangnick, who invented it, plays.
@@ardentspy didn't they also have a similar play style under Bielsa where they pressed very high?
@@ardentspy Hassenhutl has moved away from the Red Bull style this season at Southampton and is playing a far less aggressive pressing, more possession based brand of football.
@@areebsiddiqui758 Yes, but it's how he began with Southampton and it didn't work. He's attempted to fix it a bit this season.
@@rafekatchadorian465 eh, kinda but not really. Bielsa has a very intense man to man press around the pitch and marsch has a more refined press usually with the front line dropping off and waiting for a pressing trigger before committing higher.
You broke it down very well and it reaffirmed my belief it’s a stupid ethos & woeful system being played by half rate players
Villa had a worse record under Gerrard
4 wins in 22 and 2 of those wins against Norwich and burnley last season who were both relegated
Use this as an LOL button
Bamford is a huge problem.
9 big chances missed, 0 goals.
Almost entirely thanks to him Leeds have the 4th worst ratio of goals to big chances missed in the PL at 1.307, with Bamford contributing 9 of the 17 they've missed.
If he'd even scored two of those 9 big chances missed, Leeds would shift from the 4th worst to 8th worst in that stat.
after one season of impressive form he's gone back to the striker that at least in goalscoring terms looked out of depth in the championship.
I'm a Leeds fan and this is spot on. Well done.
This aged well
@@flosscap liverpool are midtable
Perhaps if opposition teams switch to more direct approaches mid game then Jesse needs the team to drop deeper to mitigate this
you would think so but he does not seem to know how to react
Why Klopp and Liverpool isn't working when??? 😂
You'd imagine Marsh can solve breaking down low blocks. He managed the best team in Austria
But he’s managing the 18th best team in England, not a terrible Austrian league.
Class video!
Jesse is a live by the sword, die by the sword manager. He has a philosophy and won't deviate.
No he isn't. That was Bielsa. We're far more cautious under Marsch and that's the problem.
I still don't get why they even hired him in the first place. Coached the worst Salzburg team I've seen in the Bundesliga in many years and was a total disaster in Leipzig. Perfect example of failing upwards.
100% agree, as a chelsea fan i´m happy its leeds but still don´t understand how he got a job in the PL.
Tell me about it. Orta apparently wanted him. He's never been asked to explain why.
Just a thought.. With the "system coaches", could it be that people may disproportionately associate a team's failings to the players' ability? Whereby it is assumed that should the "system coach" be given access to "better" players, the system would work?
@@lukemclellan2141 It's an interesting question. Leeds currently have two sets of fans. One thinks Marsch is a clever tactician being let down because Leeds only spent a hundred mill on players and it just wasn't enough. Other sides with the same resources beat us and we were robbed because we didn't buy world-class defenders. The other has a clue about football and knows bad when they see it. You get it even in the comment section on this video, which is actually kind to Marsch, where John shows that it doesn't matter who the defenders are, we'd still give away the same goals against teams like Leicester, who simply had the simple good sense to cross the ball to the totally unmarked player in our box, and that totally unmarked player will always exist so the defence *has to* trap the opposition and hope they don't the ability to pass quickly. Which might work in Austria, where teams are pedestrian and awful, but in England, well, good luck.
Jon, the TifoIRL presenter, forgot to mention solutions to make the system work.
Specifically, upgrades at center back to players that can aggressively win and clear incoming direct long ball plays.
Also, and obviously, a new center forward since Bamford is rusty, not converting chances or penalties, and is injury prone.
Is the goalie really a good shot stopper or assertive enough to command the defense in front of him?
Do the Leeds owners have good enough recruiting/scouting staff and the money to upgrade during the December transfer window?
That's not even Leeds' starting lineup holy cow. Aaronson is locked in at CAM, Sinisterra/Harrison line up accordingly
Still beat a team that won the league and the champions league in the last few years.
And then they won at Anfield so….. lol
Excellent analysis
Since this video Leeds have beaten Liverpool and Bournemouth
This didn’t age well. 😂
I feel like Newcastle have a somewhat similar problem but to a significantly lesser extent.
They've got a similar pattern of getting good results against top teams and relatively underwhelming results against Bournemouth, Palace and Wolves. Albeit Newcastle seem to have the quality to a) not ship goals against the relatively weaker teams and b) get a breakthrough with a piece of individual skill like against Forrest.
We should’ve won the palace game if not for a mindblowing VAR decision, Wolves we just started slow in the first half + Wolves where actually playing decent football and had more possession
@@olliem99 yeah I don't disagree with us being unlucky early in the season in a couple games, and any draw is for sure going to hinge on a few key moments, but given the results against Spurs and Man City we potentially should be hammering a Palace or a Wolves to the point where one bad decision shouldn't matter. (A lot of teams have been inconsistent this season so I think that's part of it). And I think Howe (as compared to Marsch) is much better at only using counter-pressing when it's advantageous to Newcastle, though this is mostly due to Newcastle by having better players and more options than Leeds.
But the limitations of counter-pressing that are highlighted are systemic and it's somewhat important for us as fans not to get frustrated if we don't look quite so 'on the front foot' against a mid or lower table team as we do against a City or a Spurs.
Things are actually fine, not everything has to be a crisis
Something I'd be really interested in is whether this play style, or maybe even some variants of it, are viable in the premier league why?
Great content
As an American gunner (release the hounds....) Leeds under Marsch remind me of Arsenal (or Brighton) of the last few seasons. Good at creating chances at both ends of the pitch, but lacking finishing. Jon's analysis is clearly much better than mine, but FWIW, the biggest issue does seem to be personnel: Raphina is gone and Bamford is a shadow of his 20/21 self. Thoroughly enjoyed the Game State deep dive, but I think all the conversations would be different if even 20% more of their (big only) chances were converted. They just can't score when they're in good positions.
Anyway, as an American but also a fan of the style of play, I hope they give Marsch more time, if only because (unlike Villa) it's difficult to think of who could convert this squad into higher performers (unless Orta could somehow hypnotize Poch).
Great! But why wouldn’t the long ball past the pressing unit work for top table teams?
Because they’re not as good as the bottom table teams. Of course.
The most interesting takeaway is Leeds can hang with the elite clubs but struggle against their peers in the table. One obvious problem early in the season was Marsch's substitution strategy which contributed to fading in the second half. He was reactive and late, especially against Southampton in the heat. All 5 subs need to make an impact. Tactically he needs a bit of Graham Potter flexibility. Leeds has bottom half talent - with a few notable exceptions- and mid table potential. But Leeds doesn't have a lot of room for error. The new substitution rules could use the Tifo treatment- who has benefitted?
Wel thats quite a fast falldown since the vs chelsea win...
Liverpool just got soccer’d
what kit is that he's wearing? its so clean
Great choice of music, it made everything feel very sexy which I imagine was the intended outcome.
We always see breakdowns on attacking play, which is great. But could we also see breakdowns on defending?
This did not age well
Normally when Jon talks about the underlying numbers, he's talking about xG for and against, and who is under or overperforming, so would these count as the underlying underlying numbers?
xGD in a drawing state
12th. Fulham, -0.16
13th. Everton, -0.31
14th. Villa, -0.32
15th. Bournemouth, -0.35
16th. Liverpool, -0.35
17th. Leeds, -0.39
18th. Palace, -0.43
19th. Saints, -0.53
20th. Forest, -0.53
out of the bottom 9, you'd expect them all to be there except Liverpool
what exactly do you expect from Leeds and Marsch, they're a bottom half team performing like one, he's just lost Raphinha & Phillips and hasn't had a third of a season yet
Ummm … the main thesis here is already total bullocks. Leeds fc has not lost to ANY of the teams in the bottom 7 positions. All this analysis and already the main points are irrelevant. Nice try!
The main thing I’ve always seen (get ready for some cutting tactical analysis) is that they lack someone to stick the ball in the net. Bamford would be just about passable if he was never an a jury doubt, having to carry an already profligate striker as he regains form is too much for a team without deadly wings or midfield.
How come you and me and thousands of LUFC fans can see what's going wrong but the board and coaches can't or they are and can't afford or won't change things.
Arrogance
the theory is fine and would work if we had : A individual fitness B skills necessary for the Premiership. If we are playing the likes of Firpo who doesn't have A and B. Bamford who is A...the list goes on. In the Premiership you cant afford to have any players in either of these categories but we have half the team who are just not good enough.
Klopp uses something similar, how you think he made it work? was it simply that he works with different class of players entirely to carry out such an offensive proactive plan of attack
klopps has better talent at his disposal and more athleticism in the back line
This aged well 🙈
Finally some Leeds content without agenda or bias . Excellent work Jon, I'd be intrigued if you had any ideas how to fix the problems you've mentioned
This guy helped hound Bielsa out last season and was in cahoots with the awful Smytty who was pushing the idea we were gonna do a Sheffield United from the start of the season. The best way to fix the problems is for everyone to ignore these egomaniac Leeds fans who are all about themselves and get Bielsa back.
Seems odd he mentioned the big chances they give up but not the big chances missed which they gotta be up there Bamford has like 10 big chances missed alone this season 😂
Man I really hope that Leeds can pull off a miracle tomorrow. Tbh it’s gonna be ugly but who knows. This is football after all.
This video isn't outdated. At 6:33 he literally say that Leed's approach is working well against the big sides that they wouldn't normally be expected to beat (yeah, yeah, hurr durr liverpool is midtable not a big side...). Beating Liverpool at Anfield literally proves his point. Did any of you watch the video?
Yeah. At 6:33 - after pretending like they only beat rubbish teams for 6 1/2 teams. Did you even watch?
There are too many ads on youtube
Eat your words pal 🤣
i think you also have to consider the players he has at his disposal, he came in to a bad team fighting relegation, lost his best two players and had his only striker injured for most of this season. Surely Leeds were expected to be struggling a bit this season
Despite losing Kalvin Phillips and Raphina, the players hes recruited fit Marsch's philosophy really well (if anything better than the two who moved on). The one missing piece being the striker. these players brought in for big money represent the football marsch wants to play. and it's been shown up
@@GranmargYGO that's fair enough but it's a pretty tough job to implement a new system with a mix of his players and the ones left over from a very specialist bielsa squad in such a short time. Personally I would lean towards letting him try to build something rather than starting again and risking getting stuck in a rotating managers cycle
@@GranmargYGO There were multiple missing pieces after utter idiocy by the Leeds board - LB, CDM, CAM and at least one striker. Not 70 million signings, just sensible transfers that other clubs are capable of. It took us 9 transfer windows to actually sign a CDM, the championship players we have are burnt out - a side effect of Bielsa I'm afraid. They had to play 100% for 90+ minutes and the training caused injuries - the squad needed a complete refresh front to back and it wasn't
The "bad team fighting for relegation" finished 9th the season before. And this is not just the same badge, but the exact same players.
He may have lost his best two players - one of whom barely played due to injuries - but they got wildly overpayed for them. Phillips for 42 m and Raphinha for 60 plus is a fleecing.
And with that money the squad was much strengthened. Kristensen, Adams, Roca, Sinisterra, Aaronson were all bought with that money and came straight into the starting XI.
After Marsch came in late last season, they beat Norwich, Wolves, Watford and Brentford, drew against Brighton and Palace and lost to Arsenal, Chelsea and Man City. Sure, nobody expected them to qualify for Europe, but I don't think anybody expected them to collect 2 points in 2 months.
@@phileast1654 Well if it's a "pretty tough job", maybe, just maybe, it would have been better not to play in that way. Sweet god. You'd think that it was mandatory for us to play this dogshit instead of a choice.
Didn’t age the best
Make a "why .... is crap" just before each liverpool game for their opponents 😂😂😂😂
To answer the question posed at the end, I don't think that this playing style is a particularly good one for a team with a low budget and lesser depth compared to other EPL sides. I think they have gotten unlucky with some poor finishing and don't deserve to be in the relegation zone, but I don't see this playing style working out unless they invest more money into the squad this January. Generally I think that a team in Leeds position should be trying to play a more defensive style as they haven't got any good strikers.
7 in 24 now;)
I wonder how this would be different if made today 😂
I assume leeds will be getting on the phone with tifo shortly to inquire about a new manager
top tier analysis
On the basis that Marsch is so utterly wedded to this setup and style of play, replacing him is the only conceivable option
I hope everyone at Leeds united is subscribed!