It occurred to me that Top Gun: Maverick is an example of a film where the old hero was not washed up and broken at the beginning of the story. Although he hadn't advanced his career and become an admiral like his friend, he was doing the job he loved very well. Even though he had problems and character flaws he was still working on, he had a lot to teach the younger generation of pilots. And the film is very popular and well-liked, as opposed to the films mentioned in the podcast.
I'm not sure that entirely applies. I won't spoil the Iceman plotline, but the beginning starts with him almost being kicked to the curb as part of a dying breed. Considering his lack of rank and lack of relationship, he kind of is washed out as a human being. Just one that is enjoying what job they do have. It'd be hard to do the movie with him as an admiral, mind you.
@@GrandHighGamer a counterpoint though is that in Maverick, him being kicked to the curb comes across as a trial to overcome, not as an inherent flaw of the character. He may be a dying breed, but the movie is him showing that his skills matter, even in the new world. By the end of the film we see that he was right all along, maintaining that he was a hero, even when he had a trial, whereas we can look at Han divorcing Leia, Luke throwing away his lightsaber, etc, as things where the hero himself has actually failed. Every character has trials and you don’t look at Maverick experiencing a trial and say he is a failed hero.
I came here to make this same comment. :) He hasn't "succeeded" from a career advancement perspective, but he has stayed an excellent version of himself. External vs internal is key. It reminds me of Skyfall and Winter Soldier: The world has changed around these characters who haven't changed. That's a very interesting and true-to-life conflict. Washed up people who didn't maintain their trajectory is also true-to-life, to be fair, just not as gratifying for an audience to see in a hero they've come to love . . . which is also a very true-to-life way to feel about our heros. So it's all very realistic, it's just that the types of stories the originals were, were an 80s "heroes are morally invincible" concept. And to Dan's point, maybe that's exactly what the reboot creators are trying to move away from. It's rather post-modern to say "the institutions and cultural staples are bad for us, so let's tear them down."
@@da47934Even the thing that effectively ends his career at the start, the test flight, is framed as him sticking up for his team. The whole thing happens because he needs to hit the number so his team can keep working their project. He is a man who still has a lot of flaws and regrets, but he’s still standing for something with passion.
@@EvilMagnitude Exactly. He has obstacles to overcome, but he's still the same character on the inside we know and love. That's what a lot of us expected for Luke: same pure heart, perhaps some more wisdom and maturity. The writers could have found other obstacles or ways to make him unexpectedly interesting than "he's jaded and pessimistic now. I don't think anyone would have cared if Luke didn't have an arc at all but was a mentor figure. Gandalf doesn't have an arc. Nor does Obi-Wan. That's ok.
The worst thing about the 3 Hobbit movies is _that they made 3 Hobbit movies._ There was enough material in the book to legitimately support two movies; trying to stretch it into three meant they had to very obviously insert an entire movie worth of filler over the course of the films, and that dragged the quality down significantly, particularly of the latter two.
On an opposite end of this kind of thing: Transformers: The Last Knight. Its a movie that had the story and characters with enough potential depth they could have made 2 or 3 movies from it, but instead its crammed into one movie that's 2.5 hours of too-fast-paced action and storytelling. Literally slow it down, let us absorb some of these fantastic characters and portrayals, refine the story... it would have been a great trilogy. The story is even pretty good as-is.
Fan edits that cut it down to about 4 hours are much better. Obviously limited by the editing and music choices already burned in... but take out the excess and there's a solid movie in there.
The 3 movie issue is one of the most-complained about issues. However, I very much disagree that this was even a problem. There was plenty of material for three movies. It is what they did with the stories that was the problem, not the length. Too often, movies shorten books way too much.
this right here. a lot of the time a 3/10 is worse than a 1/10 because usually with the 1/10 it's so bad that it can be entertaining, while a 3/10 is more forgettable
Maybe, but I often find myself being bored by everything and it has nothing to do with what I'm trying to read/watch. Boredom is a feeling and it can change and it's worth introspecting on why something bores you. A change in mindset might help you open your eyes to a great many wonderful things.
@@KoraRubin I know... isn't it weird that the book "The Hobbit" is, in general, a way more fun read than LotR, and yet, the movie LotR is way, way better than the Hobbit movies?
The Hobbit movies just felt a little bit like warmed up leftovers. Like one more money grab and not the inventive, till now, unseen epos the LotR movies were.
@KoraRubin Yeah, I think LotR was so successful on every level that it went to everyone's collective heads and wallets to the point that love of the franchise became sort of an afterthought. Luckily, there's still an excellent animated version made in 1977 that's more in keeping with the bedtime story Tolkien told his children that the Hobbit evolved from.
With Luke the part that gets me is that Last Jedi comes with the implication, intended or not, that Darth Vader is easier to redeem than Kylo Ren who hadn't done anything bad yet. Luke redeemed Vader after he'd gone to the dark side, killed so many, Obi Wan his best friend and basically his brother failed, his wife failed, his padawan failed to bring him back. But Luke was able to get through to him. And he did it while barely knowing much of who his father was beforehand. And yet with Kylo Ren Luke apparently just gave up and didn't even try and then ran off? That just seems so incredibly out of character.
> intended or not, that Darth Vader is easier to redeem than Kylo Ren who hadn't done anything bad yet Yes and no. With Vader Luke could feel the good growing him him, with Ben he felt the bad growing with him, and when he finally went to confront him it overwhelmed him to such a degree that he instinctively reacted by turning on his lightsabre for a second. He explicitly states it was a passing thought, and he wouldn't have harmed him (and never does). After that is done, there's no way for Luke to be the one to bridge the gap. If Luke had created Vader, he wouldn't have been able to save Vader because they'd be a total lack of trust. Remember that Obi Wan couldn't save Vader either. Luke was also left in the rubble, mourning all his students killed off by Kylo Ren (though I think according to some of the comments it doesn't entirely go down that way - not that Luke knows). But what's Luke going to do to convince Ben of anything if he thinks Luke was about to kill him in his sleep, while fake-Vader whispers in lies in his ear?
@@GrandHighGamer I can't see that being Luke's instinct to go for a lightsabre. It also just seems like a very stupid thing to do to confront him in his sleep? Unnecessarily making people be surprised and reacting to being woken up. But moving beyond that I don't think the Luke that realized he couldn't be the one to pull him back just gives up at that point and runs away on his own. That's not a character I recognize in Luke. He'd have gone to someone else and recruited them to do it and talked to them and tried to help. Or even captured Kylo if he had to. Running away is not Luke.
@@tadious9415the thing is, Luke says when he woke up the temple was burning almost everyone was dead and Ben was gone. We don't know the timeline form when Ben disappeared to Kylo and the first order making moves, maybe Luke did search for awhile and couldn't find him. But honestly Luke met his first real set back after becoming this big galactic hero, and it being that big of a doozy, I think hiding is incredibly reasonable, especially given it's the exact same reaction both Obi wan and Yoda, his mentors, had to similar situations too. By the end of the Last Jedi Luke is again the only person with any hope the bad guy can be redeemed: "no one is ever really gone" is often interpreted as being about Carrie given the timing of her death, but it was written before she died and in context of the film is in reference to Ben. Last Jedi Luke is, to me, very oncharacter with Luke and seems to be about the only thing thst Lucas's sequel plans and Disney's sequels have in common
@@witch_bird_jmh I could be confused on the details but I thought Luke went to confront Ben who was asleep? If Ben attacked and was burning the temple first that's not a betrayal if Luke reached for his lightsaber and he absolutely could've worked to redeem kylo still. I'd also call losing his mentor twice, losing his hand and lightsaber and han being captured to be his first setback. This is a setback too but he's had many of those by this point. Obi wan and Yoda also at least tried before they gave up and ran away. Both realized they couldn't stop palpatine. Luke could've taken kylo at that point especially with help. I also don't think it's a very good character arc to say well we threw out Luke's character but now by the end of the movie he's gotten back to who he was. Luke is also not the only one who thinks kylo can be redeemed. Han died trying to redeem him. Rey fought beside him in that movie too.
It was out of character, and in fact it went directly against Luke’s character journey in RotJ, where he goes to redeem his father despite EVERYONE telling him it’s a terrible idea… but being completely vindicated in the end. Showing that even someone as steeped in the dark side as Vader could be brought back to the light, and that chance was worth taking even if it’s dangerous. Then… with Ben when sensing his growing darkness, instead of pursuing redemption (which Luke, in what was almost certainly a defining life experience for him, has PROVED can work) instead has a moment of “maybe it’s safer to just kill him”? Like, what the heck? For another character with a different narrative journey up until that point, I could see that. But… it just didn’t fit Luke. If anything, his character fault should have been that he was TOO forgiving and trusting, where he kept thinking that he could pull Ben back to the light, until it was too late and the rest of his students paid the price. THAT I could see shaking Luke deeply enough that he fled away from the galaxy.
About the movie of I, Robot: I have read from more than one source that they never intended to name the movie that. They wrote this script and were making this movie that heavily involved the three laws of robotics when they found out, to late to change things, that these weren't common domain ideas but were tied to that book. So they to pay for the rights to the book. And then they said, well, if we're paying for the rights we might as well use the title. And that's why, other than the three laws of robotics, there's almost no overlap between the book and the movie.
Dan. Rian johnson is 50. Paul fieg is 61. All the people who wrote and directed dial of destiny are over 50. This is YOUR GENERATION writing washed up heroes. Dont pass the buck on us.
I didn't get the sense that he was trying to pass the buck. I think he was saying that the people making the media he grew up on were older generations than him. When he says "younger generation" I don't think he means Millennials/Gen Z, instead I think he means his own generation growing up and trying to make art.
Thank you for saying this, I truly believe these people grew up with these heroes, and they hated them, so now they can "fix" them to be better. They despise what they have to work with.
I stand by my love for the first Fantastic Beasts. The second one was stupid and not needed. I didn't even attempt the 3rd one. But the 1st one man, it was one of my favorite movies for awhile. I thought it added so much worldbuilding to the Harry Potter universe. The only look we got outside of Britain was the two visiting schools in the fourth book/film. I thought the first Fantastic Beasts added so much.
The real problem with what was done to Luke Skywalker isn't that they tried to make him into a washed up hero in some way so that he can then redeem himself, it's in the reason they gave for his washed up state. Let's remember that the entire story of Return of the Jedi is about how Luke is the one person who still believes that his father can be redeemed, and in the final moment when it looks like his faith has been misplaced he still resolves not to kill his father, regardless of the consequences to himself. Now in the Last Jedi, we are supposed to believe that this is the guy who decided to kill his nephew based on a vision showing that he might go bad. I'm sorry, but that's just a betrayal of the character. You could have had him fail in some other way and I wouldn't have been thrilled with it, but I might have accepted it. This way was just wrong.
Honestly they could have done exactly the opposite. Exiled because he refused to give up on Kylo after he falls to the dark side... still not as good as the EU but it would have fit his character better at least...
The sequals were written by men with children's minds. The only drama they can come up with is the drama they see played out in their make-believe lives. The real work of life, the real difficulty, is building a life together, with someone. Han and Luke failed on both accounts.
Meh. People change, especially after a lifetime of battling and losing to superior and evil forces. The Star Wars "fandom" is exceedingly negative, close-minded, and toxic af.
Luke was training Ben and saw him sliding into the dark side. He then had a (completely accurate) vision of Ben killing Billions. So he, for ONE SECOND, thinks about stopping the next Vader before he becomes Vader. Then he immediately goes "no, this isn't right." but the damage is already done. Keep in mind this is the same Luke who, while determined to save Vader, *completely flipped out* and started relentlessly attacking him the moment Vader threatened "the sister" and started slipping into the dark side.. Then the Emperor starting cackiling "good good!" and Luke regained his composure and realized what he was doing. A moment of reckless murder attempt, followed by trying to do the good thing. The film's Rashoman style throws this off because we see Ben's version of it first which paints it as fully plotted cold murder attempt and much worse than it was, by the time we get the truth of it, the first version is already stuck in the audience's head. Maybe if we hadn't gotten the multiple viewpoints, and had just gotten one clean montage flashback in the middle of the film it would have sat better with audiences. If Ben had remained asleep, Luke would have had his moment of doubt, course corrected, and then gone to "of course I can save him." He had YEARS to think about redeeming Vader. He had seconds to think about what to do with Ben. It was a completely human thing to do, and a mistake... which he then punished himself for the rest of his life. People having emotions or making mistakes isn't "out of character", it's being human. I'm generally a nice guy. Sometimes things happen and I get angry. My computer crashes or I stub my toe and and shout angrily. I don't like it or feel good about it afterward, I know better, but I still did it in the pressure of the moment. I would normally never yell or curse and this isn't me... but I did it all the same. It's out of character for me, but it's not because I'm a badly written fictional being... its because there was an unusual and stressful moment put upon me and I reacted badly in the heat of the moment. People aren't consistent logical beings 100% of the time. We make mistakes and have regrets.
Brandon calling 1920s New York "dreary architecture" might be the most I've ever disagreed with anything Brandon's said haha. FB2 sucks but the first one is a great period piece fantasy! The costumes and 1920s feel are superb.
Dan is such a contrarian that when you ask him to find media he hates, he can't come up with any. Whereas in most episodes, well-liked media is mentioned and Dan can't help but express how much he doesn't like them 😂
I dont think its a new generation thats changing the old heroes, rian johnson is the same age as you two. Everyone i know under the age of 30 also hates the new heroes
I think it is a bad adaptation, but more than that it is also boring which is the worst part. I was really willing to look past the bad adaptation part.
I got about 30 minutes into their version of Going Postal and had to stop. Instead of Moist being this smooth con man he was acting like a nervous dork. Like the actor, hated that performance.
Lol, dan literally pulled out the "millenials ruin everythng card" despite the fact that most of the movies he complains about were written by his own generation
10:27 thank u guys so much for talking about (and showing appreciation for) Harry Potter. I love those movies! Luna is my favorite character both in the books and in the films. She was cast so perfectly!
Totally agree with Dan on his assessment on modern storytelling. My biggest issue is that even if they need to tell certain stories a certain way, they have no business infringing on classic IP’s. They don’t have to take a dump on those properties to tell the stories they want. They’re not creative enough to be original and so they have to co-opt proven properties so they can be successful. It hurts to watch it happen.
But Dan is wrong that it's the new generation, all the movies hes thinking of are being written by people who are older than he himself is. Millennials are doing The Lighthouse, Uncut Gems and Midsummor, not the Last Jedi.
@@TheLordofMetroids As mentioned in another thread by somebody else, it depends on what the _new_ generation is. Compared to the original craftors of those IPs, like George Lucas or Steven Spielberg, the writers are _a_ new generation (very late Boomer/GenX vs. very early Boomer / GenSilent), just not the _newest_.
@@TheLordofMetroids That makes sense. I wonder if it's a bit of both, though. It's not the young generation making these movies themselves... but current filmmakers feeling the need to pander to what they believe represents the young audience?
Eh, it's more that they're not given the opportunity to be original. Very different thing. Just about the only thing that can get made on anything larger than $10 million is an IP. This is on studios, not creatives.
Spider-verse pulls it off. Peter is the washed up hero and Miles is the one replacing him. They just didn't break the hero in order to make the new one. They gave him new purpose and it works.
It helps that Miles is replacing his world’s Peter because he literally died, and not just because “the younger generation can do it better and I’m retiring.” He _has_ a washed up older Spider-Man as a mentor, but that Spider-Man learns to better himself and is still being a superhero in his own world after the movie.
It wasn’t Topher Grace who edited the Hobbit movies, but there is a 4-hour cut of the 3 films combined that is genuinely good and true to the book. The guy even did new special effects. Topher Grace did an 85-minute edit of the Star Wars prequels that was apparently completely badass. He took 7-1/2 hours of footage and cut it down to less than an hour-and-a-half.
I feel like all of the problems with TLJ started with TFA. TFA decided that Luke's post-RotJ life was an abysmal failure and that he went into hiding and TLJ was forced find meaning in that. TFA should have started the trilogy as a New Jedi Order story in my opinion.
Thank you! I have always thought this. Setting the series back to square one didn’t open up opportunities, it just limited where you could do going forward
That was my realization as well. I left TLJ pensive and thought about it for two hours realizing that what I disliked of it came from TFA. I enjoyed the visuals and the music, but I could not enjoy the story built on the beginning of TFA.
Dan is referring to the TV Trope known as 'Cerebus Syndrome' in which the longer something goes on, the more serious it becomes, even if it started out as something whimsical.
Dan mentioned Alita: battle angel and the most I can say is it has/ had potential. But after reading the original material as well as the extra stuff the author did later to extend it. The biggest disservice we got was that they rushed through and over looked parts of alita that make the manga fantastic
3:10 It is only season one of The Office that is pure discomfort humor. It gets so much better. Peak Office is as funny as peak Arrested Development. Give it another try and start from season two where they toned down the cringe and made characters nicer.
Seeing Dr. Leo Marvin as 'good' in that film requires reading him as moral solely based on his profession, when the movie takes quite a bit of time to make clear that he is *not* a good man. He is self-absorbed, sees his family as reflections of him and his own passions, wants to place himself on a pedestal alongside the legends of psychiatry, and can't stand anyone taking any of his limelight. He neglects his own children, except when he wants to control them for the sake of outcomes that make him feel good about himself. He helps his patients because it makes him look good, not because he actually cares about the patients. Bob walks in the door with his nonsense and dismantles everything that Marvin *thinks* matters to him, leaving him only with that which he ought to love the most: a family that still, despite all that, does truly care about him.
@@SaintBootThey can not like the movie, it's definitely a polarizing one. But I also don't like when people hate something because they have misread it.
While I love What About Bob, I can absolutely understand why people hate it. I definitely relate a lot more to poor Doctor Marvin as I've gotten older, but Bill Murrey is still hilarious in that movie and seeing the good doctor melt down is delightful to me.
I feel the same way; I love it but totally get why people would hate it. "I feel good, I feel great, I feel wonderful" it's often my mantra in difficult situations lol
Very cool artwork Oliver! I took AP English and now appreciate that I have that foundation. I only wish they could have included literature that was a little bit more fun-sigh. Btw, big fan of I Robot. Don’t know why but every time it comes on TV I have to watch it. Thx for the fun video! 💜
Ender's Game the movie. Loved the book so much as a kid, the movie gives no time for character development or gravitas. I remember the book feeling so dark to me. The movie feels like a kid's bop version
Rebel Moon is only fun if you watch it with people and shout out what movie/show/character the current scene is based on. It is derivative in a manner rarely seen with a budget.
This podcast gives me a little bit of hope for mistborn and Stormlight media. Keep the magic, the wonder, the brilliant writing, the joy. That's what makes these books so fantastic. The modern storytelling of movies and media via Disney, star wars, and Indiana Jones is the things that we hate. Please please don't become them.
@24:30 it could also be that these writers are all coming from the same schools; with a focus on techniques & structure that would in ACADEMIA get a good grade, but fails to connect to the wider viewing world
Yeah that was such a bad adaptation that had the material to be great, they had the budget for it, Jeremy Irons as Brom is perfect. And then just such a terrible movie throwing out everything good from the books.
There’s some aspects I quite liked about the adaptation, but that makes the bad stuff feel even worse. And I cannot fathom why zero effort was made in making the elf, or the urgals, or even the dwarves (apparently there are dwarves in it, you wouldn’t know it within the context of the film), actually look like fantasy races. Jeremy Irons is good though.
If you do end up wanting to watch the Rebel Moon movies, I suggest you wait until August 2nd. Netflix will be releasing the director’s cuts for both movies then. Snyder’s director cuts are always better than the initial studio cuts.
I was ready to write a vehement defence of James Joyce, but I loved hearing your comments on his work. There seems to be this notion that when one doesn't like something they think it was bad, or that others are deluded in their enjoyment. But there are so many things where you can see that it's objectively great but you just don't get into it. You don't have to enjoy everything that is good and well-made, just like you don't have to hate awful blockbusters. What a wonderfully earnest podcast. Thanks for making it!
If Brandon doesn't think Newt really takes the main role in the first movie, I want to hear his opinion on the second, where Newt is actively struggling not to be part of the plot.
My own answer right now among all media, and I’m surprised it wasn’t mentioned by Brandon when discussing the Hobbit, is hands down ‘Rings of Power’. I wanted to love it so much but it’s just such a train wreck.
I understand that people don’t like Fantastic Beasts but I’m always surprised when they say it’s the worst. It’s easily Yates’ best HP film and it did bring back the whimsy of the wizarding world. The HP films generally don’t have that outside of the first couple, and maybe 4. The last four movies were so dreary that FB felt like a great new direction. Also it had beasts!
Nah, I was surprised by how good that pick was. I've watched the movie twice and both times I wouldn't be able to tell you what happened because I was so bored I couldn't focus on it. I'm not a huge movie watcher, and I'm not sure where I'd rank it, but I didn't like it.
I loved the first one! I do see Brandon's points a little (many others have those opinions too) but imo they show in the second two a lot more lol. The first was so good and introduced a lot of potential. But my perspective is probably different because 1) I'm character driven 2) I had only newly been introduced to the wizarding world so I was pretty open to different stories or takes on it 3) I consumed a lot of hp lore and book/movie theories lol
As a diehard fan of the Hobbit trilogy (as well as a diehard fan of the book) I think it's important to appreciate that the films aren't telling the story of the book; they are tying the events of the book to the events of the Lord of the Rings. When Tolkien wrote the Hobbit, he didn't intend to set it in Middle-earth (the rewrites of the Riddles in the Dark chapter are a clear indication of this). Jackson took elements from the lore and weaved them into the films. The Hobbit trilogy is the book + lore... it doesn't meaningfully change anything that occurred in the books.
Topher Grace famously made a fan edit of the Star Wars Prequel trilogy. He did a private showing which people raved about. I don't think he did a Hobbit cut, but i could be wrong and he could have done both. Edit: Turns out he did a 2 hour cut! Again not many people have seen it.
It's funny how much Brandon's taste and way of seeing the world match in so many ways...but then we definitely have some differences in what media we like/dislike.
I think I need at least one more episode on this topic. 😂 Feels like you barely scratched the surface. If anyone handling the account sees this I was wondering if any of their kids write? Is that something they encourage or would encourage if that’s the case? So fun when Oliver is working!
TV tropes has a name for the long form web comic problem: "Cerebus Syndrome", after a well-known web comic that pulled a very fast descent into seriousness.
It happens in actual comics as well. Spider-Man is often a victim of the writers just being cruel to him after while. Similarly the original run of Spider-Gwen goes super dark and just plain miserable after a while. This gets lampshaded brilliantly with the Watcher who's watching her world refusing to continue watching because it’s not fun anymore, leading to a visit for another Watcher to get him back to doing his job who is also horrified and confused when he starts watching as well.
With Luke, the part I didn't like was the fact that Luke tried to kill young Kylo Ren because he had a vision about what Kylo was to become. I mean... Did Luke completely forget that you can turn back from the Dark Side? That no one is 100 % evil? If I had written that movie I would've have Luke trying everything he could to keep Kylo from straying to the Dark side! And when Kylo eventually did kill everyone at the new academy, Luke could still go into exile. Perhaps he has lost faith in himself and his ability to establish a new,this time good, Jedi order!
That would definitely work for Luke's character. But the problem is, without Luke looking like he was about to kill Ben, the movie would need some other plausibly sympathetic reason for Ben to betray the fledgling Jedi and turn evil.
@@JeremyHoffman Well, a good enough reason would be "Ben was tempted by the Dark Side". I mean Star Wars doesn't really need another reason besides that. Maybe Ben actually believes that the Dark Side is more powerful and so he one day simply leave, despite all Lukes attempts to keep him on the Light side.
I see how Fantastic Beasts is disappointing to some but I genuinely find it so good for exactly the same reason Brandon disliked it. No need for big plot sometimes it’s fun to just hang out with characters in a familiar world. It’s my favorite cozy fantasy story
The one thing that frustrates me in stories is the concept we need to show how badass, smart or skilled this person is. Ok let's take these other awesome characters and they make a mistake that their reputations would suggest they wouldn't make and the hero corrects it. So our hero is not amazing so much as the bar is lowered.
Idk about Dan's theory about sociology thing. Because to say that this trend has "suddenly become popular because it reflects some widespread emotional feeling" makes it seem like the movies that employ this trope have been successful, or grabbed a hold of the audience. When in reality TLJ was so widely hated that they had to abandon the whole plotline and reboot the trilogy in the third act, Marvel movies have had a very notable decline in the box office since they began to embrace this trend, and Indiana Jones isn't exactly breaking records. But I do think his analysis might be correct in that there are probably echo chambers within Hollywood and California that are so detatched from the rest of the world that they truly believe those things to the point where that is the influencing what we recieve.
TLJ was like the highest grossing movie of the year, a minority complained so much it spooked Kathleen, but they didn't "reboot the trilogy'" or abandon any plotlines
Normally Dan says that his opinions aren’t popular, but the most true thing he has ever said was that Ethan Frome is a bad book. Amen to that. Worst book I have had the displeasure of being forced to read.
In defense of the new Ghostbusters, Winston is very successful and actually keeps the other two old ghostbusters afloat financially. Not only that he actually kept and updated their old ghost fighting weapons. So I wouldn’t count them, or at least him, as being washed up.
I appreciate Brandon’s comments on The Last Jedi so much. That film fractured the fanbase that was 70s and 80s kids. By taking a big crap on Luke Skywalker. It was heartbreaking. Even Mark Hamill was broken by it.
My experience with the Luke Skywalker stuff was very different, but maybe it isn't really the movie's fault (or merit). I became a Star Wars fan when I rewatched the OT at 18 years old. Luke's determination and ability to move on uplifted me in my darkest hour. While I finished my high school days on a very happy note after two years of struggling, things didn't work out for me in college. But two years later, the "Imposter syndrome Luke" movie released. Maybe I misread it, but the message I got from Luke's arc in that movie was that, deep down, he was still the very same hero from RotJ, and valid, even after become a "failure". And guess what? That was just what I needed back then to set my life back on track. And it worked! Maybe it was awful character assasination, but by mere chance it worked wonderfully due to the very specific mindset I had when watching both movies.
I loved "What about Bob" purely for watching Richard Dreyfus go crazy. His performance in that movie is what did it for me when I watched it back in the day.
I've been saying I enjoy Battle Field earth for years. Massively under rated. Is it good? No. Does it make even a little bit of sense? NO. But it's fun to watch. Glad I have someone to back me up finally
My thoughts on the Last Jedi are the same as both of yours hahaha. The Audacity is amazing. The treatment of Luke, in context of episode 8 is fine, but in context of episodes 4-6 is awful
I saw Eternals three times in theatres cause I went with friends. The first time I watched it I didn’t think too much and it was fine, the second and third times and thinking about it made me hate it so much. I legit could still not remember a single character’s name, they just abandoned the cool villain, like…. Ugh. The only thing you could say is that it was pretty. But it presented soooooo many issues and was so bad. It retroactively made Thanos correct, and just….. fuming still
The awkward situation harming a decent person storyline - the one that immediately came to mind to me is The Cable Guy. I didn’t fully hate it and there were a few laugh aloud moments, but it was more uncomfortable than fun to watch overall.
I usually disagree with Dan but rarely with Brandon. Fantastic Beasts was actually my first taste of the wizarding world and I still like the first one. It was magical enough that I went to the theme parks and read all the books. I’d love to debate him on this one.
For all its flaws, the "Frasier" revival is an interesting counter-example to the "old hero is now all washed up" trend. Frasier is portrayed as having become extremely successful in the period between the original and the revival, and his flaws in the new show are all ones which are drawn directly from the earlier versions of the character. Writing could stand some improvement, but the dynamic for how the protagonist is portrayed is almost the polar opposite of the current norm.
This conversation about washed up former heroes made me think of the revival of “Gilmore Girls.” I remember watching the first of the four new episodes with my mom, and both of us sitting there after it was over, stunned at how little our heroines accomplished and how unhappy they were. I tried to cheer my mom up by saying, “Well, in any story, they have to start low so the characters can rise up and triumph - I think this is just setting up Rory’s later triumph.” Unfortunately, the whole revival was a disappointment, and a lot of digital ink has been spent trying to explain why, but in my opinion, Brandon summed it up best. Here are a few phrases he said that I feel encapsulate Rory and Lorelei in the revival: “Actually not accomplished anything” “Breaks what came before” A narrative needs “a great conflict and troubles” “Your heroes don’t actually succeed”
I love that his high school English teacher made him read Finnegan’s Wake. It’s 600 pages of a made up dialect from dozens of languages that Joyce smashed together in an attempt to troll his audience. It’s mostly gibberish. That high school teacher must have really disliked his class to put them through that kind of hurt. I love that the book exists since Joyce spent nearly two decades writing it, but I would never read it myself. My professor gave me the book as a “graduation present” because I was a class clown and he wanted the last laugh.
I enjoyed you both talking about James Joyce. Amusingly, you both kept getting Finnegans Wake and Ulysses confused. I fully understand your takes on Joyce's works. I will say that Dubliners is pretty depressing, and that's kind of the point. Though, being subjected to it three years in a row is painful.
I think I'm shocked that anyone can hate The Dead. Had to read that in college and still think it's one of the greatest short stories. My Joyce knowledge is still otherwise lacking, despite having since read Artist.
For the discussion on Joyce-they were referencing Molly Bloom’s soliloquy, which is part of the end of the book. And here’s a pretty funny reference to it. th-cam.com/video/HviIFg9ePuY/w-d-xo.htmlsi=bCp6ZsUghGUtxkD8
23:00 I think there is a fundamental thing that people either forget, or didn't really notice or realize about the ending of the original Star Wars trilogy in Return of the Jedi for Luke specifically. He failed. He fell to the dark side at the end. He gave in to the rage and the hate. He tried to kill the Emperor and then defeated Vader at the end only through his rage, anger and grief. He only stopped when he realized he had become exactly what his father was. And, ultimately, it was Anakin who defeated the Emperor, not Luke. Yes, he gave up that darkness at the end, in the last moment, but he absolutely fell and yet people act like he was this paragon of virtue and heroism instead of what he really was: the fallen hero who only redeemed himself at the very last second. His character was absolutely ripe, in a storytelling sense, for future conflicts and inner turmoil. I 100% believe there are many things you can criticize the sequel trilogy for. However, I think the criticism that they 'ruined' Luke is largely driven by rose-tinted nostalgia and not on how the character was actually portrayed in the films.
What adaptation is so bad that I hate it? Sorry, but it's Wheel of Time. It's so different from the books that I frankly cannot see it as Wheel of Time anymore. These are not the characters I know, this is not the world I know, and this is not the story I wanted to see adapted. I frankly hate the show and cannot watch it.
That's unfortunate, but at least you presumably aren't hate watching it and railing against what it isn't after every episode. WoT should be judged on what it is instead of what it isn't. When done so, it's a mixed bag full of some excellent aspects, some horrible choices, and everything between.
@@watcherofwatchers Well what it isn't is Wheel of Time, and they should have called it something else so that people who wanted Wheel of Time wouldn't be so grievously disappointed.
@@watcherofwatchersBecause they chose to adapt a series, it has to be judged at least somewhat in relation to the books. It would be completely unreasonable to expect someone not to.
@@fullparagon7468 That's completely false. You don't agree with the choices that were made, but it is still Wheel of Time. Be disappointed, but get over it.
@@tyleresplin3414 You are purposefully being obtuse. Of course it's going to be compared, but it's often done so unfairly and without nuance or understanding. It's quite irrational.
Shout out to Order of the Stick, a webcomic somewhat guilty of what Dan complained about (getting more serious over time), but made it work and is still funny.
If you guys had seen Rebel Moon before this podcast, this would perhaps be your #1 bad 😂 would love to hear your thoughts if you end up watching it lol
Point of order about Ghostbusters Afterlife (the one with the kids) Ray, Peter and Winston do show back up at the end to help deal with the Problem, Ray having been apparently inspired out of his depression by Phoebe's call.
It occurred to me that Top Gun: Maverick is an example of a film where the old hero was not washed up and broken at the beginning of the story. Although he hadn't advanced his career and become an admiral like his friend, he was doing the job he loved very well. Even though he had problems and character flaws he was still working on, he had a lot to teach the younger generation of pilots. And the film is very popular and well-liked, as opposed to the films mentioned in the podcast.
I'm not sure that entirely applies. I won't spoil the Iceman plotline, but the beginning starts with him almost being kicked to the curb as part of a dying breed. Considering his lack of rank and lack of relationship, he kind of is washed out as a human being. Just one that is enjoying what job they do have. It'd be hard to do the movie with him as an admiral, mind you.
@@GrandHighGamer a counterpoint though is that in Maverick, him being kicked to the curb comes across as a trial to overcome, not as an inherent flaw of the character. He may be a dying breed, but the movie is him showing that his skills matter, even in the new world. By the end of the film we see that he was right all along, maintaining that he was a hero, even when he had a trial, whereas we can look at Han divorcing Leia, Luke throwing away his lightsaber, etc, as things where the hero himself has actually failed. Every character has trials and you don’t look at Maverick experiencing a trial and say he is a failed hero.
I came here to make this same comment. :) He hasn't "succeeded" from a career advancement perspective, but he has stayed an excellent version of himself. External vs internal is key. It reminds me of Skyfall and Winter Soldier: The world has changed around these characters who haven't changed. That's a very interesting and true-to-life conflict. Washed up people who didn't maintain their trajectory is also true-to-life, to be fair, just not as gratifying for an audience to see in a hero they've come to love . . . which is also a very true-to-life way to feel about our heros. So it's all very realistic, it's just that the types of stories the originals were, were an 80s "heroes are morally invincible" concept. And to Dan's point, maybe that's exactly what the reboot creators are trying to move away from. It's rather post-modern to say "the institutions and cultural staples are bad for us, so let's tear them down."
@@da47934Even the thing that effectively ends his career at the start, the test flight, is framed as him sticking up for his team. The whole thing happens because he needs to hit the number so his team can keep working their project. He is a man who still has a lot of flaws and regrets, but he’s still standing for something with passion.
@@EvilMagnitude Exactly. He has obstacles to overcome, but he's still the same character on the inside we know and love. That's what a lot of us expected for Luke: same pure heart, perhaps some more wisdom and maturity. The writers could have found other obstacles or ways to make him unexpectedly interesting than "he's jaded and pessimistic now. I don't think anyone would have cared if Luke didn't have an arc at all but was a mentor figure. Gandalf doesn't have an arc. Nor does Obi-Wan. That's ok.
I'm loving Oliver photobombing his dad's show :D
I'm not
The worst thing about the 3 Hobbit movies is _that they made 3 Hobbit movies._ There was enough material in the book to legitimately support two movies; trying to stretch it into three meant they had to very obviously insert an entire movie worth of filler over the course of the films, and that dragged the quality down significantly, particularly of the latter two.
On an opposite end of this kind of thing: Transformers: The Last Knight. Its a movie that had the story and characters with enough potential depth they could have made 2 or 3 movies from it, but instead its crammed into one movie that's 2.5 hours of too-fast-paced action and storytelling. Literally slow it down, let us absorb some of these fantastic characters and portrayals, refine the story... it would have been a great trilogy. The story is even pretty good as-is.
Fan edits that cut it down to about 4 hours are much better. Obviously limited by the editing and music choices already burned in... but take out the excess and there's a solid movie in there.
Yeah. If they would have stuck to two and got rid of that idiotic elf / dwarf romance, it would have been fine.
The 3 movie issue is one of the most-complained about issues. However, I very much disagree that this was even a problem. There was plenty of material for three movies. It is what they did with the stories that was the problem, not the length. Too often, movies shorten books way too much.
I’ve said that for a while. If they had split it in two I would have understood/forgiven it. 3 is just egregious.
The worst sin media can commit isn’t being bad, it’s being boring.
this right here. a lot of the time a 3/10 is worse than a 1/10 because usually with the 1/10 it's so bad that it can be entertaining, while a 3/10 is more forgettable
Maybe, but I often find myself being bored by everything and it has nothing to do with what I'm trying to read/watch. Boredom is a feeling and it can change and it's worth introspecting on why something bores you. A change in mindset might help you open your eyes to a great many wonderful things.
I would argue that media being annoying is worse than boring.
5:37
But worse than that is being harmful.
"This is a masterpiece, and I DO NOT LIKE IT." That basically sums up my experience with about one third to one half of my English Literature Degree.
That's exactly how I feel about LotR.
I always thought, it's a really good war story, but a shity fantasy one.
@@KoraRubin I know... isn't it weird that the book "The Hobbit" is, in general, a way more fun read than LotR, and yet, the movie LotR is way, way better than the Hobbit movies?
@grantstratton2239 I always just assumed that everyone who is a LotR fanatic read e v e r y Tolkien book, and that's why they love it.
The Hobbit movies just felt a little bit like warmed up leftovers. Like one more money grab and not the inventive, till now, unseen epos the LotR movies were.
@KoraRubin Yeah, I think LotR was so successful on every level that it went to everyone's collective heads and wallets to the point that love of the franchise became sort of an afterthought. Luckily, there's still an excellent animated version made in 1977 that's more in keeping with the bedtime story Tolkien told his children that the Hobbit evolved from.
With Luke the part that gets me is that Last Jedi comes with the implication, intended or not, that Darth Vader is easier to redeem than Kylo Ren who hadn't done anything bad yet. Luke redeemed Vader after he'd gone to the dark side, killed so many, Obi Wan his best friend and basically his brother failed, his wife failed, his padawan failed to bring him back. But Luke was able to get through to him. And he did it while barely knowing much of who his father was beforehand. And yet with Kylo Ren Luke apparently just gave up and didn't even try and then ran off? That just seems so incredibly out of character.
> intended or not, that Darth Vader is easier to redeem than Kylo Ren who hadn't done anything bad yet
Yes and no. With Vader Luke could feel the good growing him him, with Ben he felt the bad growing with him, and when he finally went to confront him it overwhelmed him to such a degree that he instinctively reacted by turning on his lightsabre for a second. He explicitly states it was a passing thought, and he wouldn't have harmed him (and never does). After that is done, there's no way for Luke to be the one to bridge the gap. If Luke had created Vader, he wouldn't have been able to save Vader because they'd be a total lack of trust. Remember that Obi Wan couldn't save Vader either. Luke was also left in the rubble, mourning all his students killed off by Kylo Ren (though I think according to some of the comments it doesn't entirely go down that way - not that Luke knows). But what's Luke going to do to convince Ben of anything if he thinks Luke was about to kill him in his sleep, while fake-Vader whispers in lies in his ear?
@@GrandHighGamer I can't see that being Luke's instinct to go for a lightsabre. It also just seems like a very stupid thing to do to confront him in his sleep? Unnecessarily making people be surprised and reacting to being woken up. But moving beyond that I don't think the Luke that realized he couldn't be the one to pull him back just gives up at that point and runs away on his own. That's not a character I recognize in Luke. He'd have gone to someone else and recruited them to do it and talked to them and tried to help. Or even captured Kylo if he had to. Running away is not Luke.
@@tadious9415the thing is, Luke says when he woke up the temple was burning almost everyone was dead and Ben was gone. We don't know the timeline form when Ben disappeared to Kylo and the first order making moves, maybe Luke did search for awhile and couldn't find him.
But honestly Luke met his first real set back after becoming this big galactic hero, and it being that big of a doozy, I think hiding is incredibly reasonable, especially given it's the exact same reaction both Obi wan and Yoda, his mentors, had to similar situations too.
By the end of the Last Jedi Luke is again the only person with any hope the bad guy can be redeemed: "no one is ever really gone" is often interpreted as being about Carrie given the timing of her death, but it was written before she died and in context of the film is in reference to Ben.
Last Jedi Luke is, to me, very oncharacter with Luke and seems to be about the only thing thst Lucas's sequel plans and Disney's sequels have in common
@@witch_bird_jmh I could be confused on the details but I thought Luke went to confront Ben who was asleep? If Ben attacked and was burning the temple first that's not a betrayal if Luke reached for his lightsaber and he absolutely could've worked to redeem kylo still.
I'd also call losing his mentor twice, losing his hand and lightsaber and han being captured to be his first setback. This is a setback too but he's had many of those by this point.
Obi wan and Yoda also at least tried before they gave up and ran away. Both realized they couldn't stop palpatine. Luke could've taken kylo at that point especially with help.
I also don't think it's a very good character arc to say well we threw out Luke's character but now by the end of the movie he's gotten back to who he was.
Luke is also not the only one who thinks kylo can be redeemed. Han died trying to redeem him. Rey fought beside him in that movie too.
It was out of character, and in fact it went directly against Luke’s character journey in RotJ, where he goes to redeem his father despite EVERYONE telling him it’s a terrible idea… but being completely vindicated in the end. Showing that even someone as steeped in the dark side as Vader could be brought back to the light, and that chance was worth taking even if it’s dangerous.
Then… with Ben when sensing his growing darkness, instead of pursuing redemption (which Luke, in what was almost certainly a defining life experience for him, has PROVED can work) instead has a moment of “maybe it’s safer to just kill him”? Like, what the heck?
For another character with a different narrative journey up until that point, I could see that. But… it just didn’t fit Luke.
If anything, his character fault should have been that he was TOO forgiving and trusting, where he kept thinking that he could pull Ben back to the light, until it was too late and the rest of his students paid the price. THAT I could see shaking Luke deeply enough that he fled away from the galaxy.
About the movie of I, Robot: I have read from more than one source that they never intended to name the movie that. They wrote this script and were making this movie that heavily involved the three laws of robotics when they found out, to late to change things, that these weren't common domain ideas but were tied to that book. So they to pay for the rights to the book. And then they said, well, if we're paying for the rights we might as well use the title. And that's why, other than the three laws of robotics, there's almost no overlap between the book and the movie.
Oliver giving us the peace sign is so much fun 14:35
Thumbs up at 17:10
Dan. Rian johnson is 50. Paul fieg is 61. All the people who wrote and directed dial of destiny are over 50. This is YOUR GENERATION writing washed up heroes. Dont pass the buck on us.
I didn't get the sense that he was trying to pass the buck. I think he was saying that the people making the media he grew up on were older generations than him. When he says "younger generation" I don't think he means Millennials/Gen Z, instead I think he means his own generation growing up and trying to make art.
@@omgaraccoonAre you ok?
@@omgaraccoon Are you alright?
you have issues. @@omgaraccoon
Thank you for saying this, I truly believe these people grew up with these heroes, and they hated them, so now they can "fix" them to be better. They despise what they have to work with.
I stand by my love for the first Fantastic Beasts. The second one was stupid and not needed. I didn't even attempt the 3rd one. But the 1st one man, it was one of my favorite movies for awhile. I thought it added so much worldbuilding to the Harry Potter universe. The only look we got outside of Britain was the two visiting schools in the fourth book/film. I thought the first Fantastic Beasts added so much.
Shoutout to Oliver for doing a great job!
The real problem with what was done to Luke Skywalker isn't that they tried to make him into a washed up hero in some way so that he can then redeem himself, it's in the reason they gave for his washed up state. Let's remember that the entire story of Return of the Jedi is about how Luke is the one person who still believes that his father can be redeemed, and in the final moment when it looks like his faith has been misplaced he still resolves not to kill his father, regardless of the consequences to himself. Now in the Last Jedi, we are supposed to believe that this is the guy who decided to kill his nephew based on a vision showing that he might go bad. I'm sorry, but that's just a betrayal of the character. You could have had him fail in some other way and I wouldn't have been thrilled with it, but I might have accepted it. This way was just wrong.
Honestly they could have done exactly the opposite. Exiled because he refused to give up on Kylo after he falls to the dark side... still not as good as the EU but it would have fit his character better at least...
The sequals were written by men with children's minds. The only drama they can come up with is the drama they see played out in their make-believe lives. The real work of life, the real difficulty, is building a life together, with someone. Han and Luke failed on both accounts.
Meh. People change, especially after a lifetime of battling and losing to superior and evil forces.
The Star Wars "fandom" is exceedingly negative, close-minded, and toxic af.
Yeah, Luke's "I wanted to kill him" was forced, made up drama. Weak writing.
Luke was training Ben and saw him sliding into the dark side. He then had a (completely accurate) vision of Ben killing Billions.
So he, for ONE SECOND, thinks about stopping the next Vader before he becomes Vader. Then he immediately goes "no, this isn't right." but the damage is already done.
Keep in mind this is the same Luke who, while determined to save Vader, *completely flipped out* and started relentlessly attacking him the moment Vader threatened "the sister" and started slipping into the dark side.. Then the Emperor starting cackiling "good good!" and Luke regained his composure and realized what he was doing. A moment of reckless murder attempt, followed by trying to do the good thing.
The film's Rashoman style throws this off because we see Ben's version of it first which paints it as fully plotted cold murder attempt and much worse than it was, by the time we get the truth of it, the first version is already stuck in the audience's head. Maybe if we hadn't gotten the multiple viewpoints, and had just gotten one clean montage flashback in the middle of the film it would have sat better with audiences.
If Ben had remained asleep, Luke would have had his moment of doubt, course corrected, and then gone to "of course I can save him." He had YEARS to think about redeeming Vader. He had seconds to think about what to do with Ben. It was a completely human thing to do, and a mistake... which he then punished himself for the rest of his life.
People having emotions or making mistakes isn't "out of character", it's being human. I'm generally a nice guy. Sometimes things happen and I get angry. My computer crashes or I stub my toe and and shout angrily. I don't like it or feel good about it afterward, I know better, but I still did it in the pressure of the moment. I would normally never yell or curse and this isn't me... but I did it all the same. It's out of character for me, but it's not because I'm a badly written fictional being... its because there was an unusual and stressful moment put upon me and I reacted badly in the heat of the moment. People aren't consistent logical beings 100% of the time. We make mistakes and have regrets.
Brandon calling 1920s New York "dreary architecture" might be the most I've ever disagreed with anything Brandon's said haha. FB2 sucks but the first one is a great period piece fantasy! The costumes and 1920s feel are superb.
Dan is such a contrarian that when you ask him to find media he hates, he can't come up with any. Whereas in most episodes, well-liked media is mentioned and Dan can't help but express how much he doesn't like them 😂
I mean.. hate is a strong word. You can dislike many things but have none of them.
He hates them so much that it's hard to find the one he hates the most 😂
That's an awesome drawing, Oliver! Keep it up!
I dont think its a new generation thats changing the old heroes, rian johnson is the same age as you two. Everyone i know under the age of 30 also hates the new heroes
As a big Discworld fan, the BBC version of The Watch hurt me on a deep and visceral level.
I think it is a bad adaptation, but more than that it is also boring which is the worst part. I was really willing to look past the bad adaptation part.
I refuse to watch it (no pun intended)
I got about 30 minutes into their version of Going Postal and had to stop. Instead of Moist being this smooth con man he was acting like a nervous dork. Like the actor, hated that performance.
Let the hate flow through you!
Lol, dan literally pulled out the "millenials ruin everythng card" despite the fact that most of the movies he complains about were written by his own generation
10:27 thank u guys so much for talking about (and showing appreciation for) Harry Potter. I love those movies! Luna is my favorite character both in the books and in the films. She was cast so perfectly!
For the adaptation category: Eragon. I was devastated as a when I saw that as a kid. I don't think I even finished the movie.
That's just a terrible movie overall, though, I think they specifically meant decent movies that hurt because they are terrible adaptations.+
you loving Battlefield Earth and Cats is so funny to me lmao
It's refreshing to see someone give a fair critique of Man of Steel. That's a rare sight on the Internet.
Totally agree with Dan on his assessment on modern storytelling. My biggest issue is that even if they need to tell certain stories a certain way, they have no business infringing on classic IP’s. They don’t have to take a dump on those properties to tell the stories they want. They’re not creative enough to be original and so they have to co-opt proven properties so they can be successful. It hurts to watch it happen.
Yeah, I hate the opinion, which Dan expressed here, that subverting expectations is meritorious in and of itself. It's not.
But Dan is wrong that it's the new generation, all the movies hes thinking of are being written by people who are older than he himself is.
Millennials are doing The Lighthouse, Uncut Gems and Midsummor, not the Last Jedi.
@@TheLordofMetroids As mentioned in another thread by somebody else, it depends on what the _new_ generation is. Compared to the original craftors of those IPs, like George Lucas or Steven Spielberg, the writers are _a_ new generation (very late Boomer/GenX vs. very early Boomer / GenSilent), just not the _newest_.
@@TheLordofMetroids That makes sense. I wonder if it's a bit of both, though. It's not the young generation making these movies themselves... but current filmmakers feeling the need to pander to what they believe represents the young audience?
Eh, it's more that they're not given the opportunity to be original. Very different thing. Just about the only thing that can get made on anything larger than $10 million is an IP. This is on studios, not creatives.
Spider-verse pulls it off. Peter is the washed up hero and Miles is the one replacing him. They just didn't break the hero in order to make the new one. They gave him new purpose and it works.
It helps that Miles is replacing his world’s Peter because he literally died, and not just because “the younger generation can do it better and I’m retiring.” He _has_ a washed up older Spider-Man as a mentor, but that Spider-Man learns to better himself and is still being a superhero in his own world after the movie.
@@thatonepossum5766 yah they had to do some crazy stuff to pull it off
It wasn’t Topher Grace who edited the Hobbit movies, but there is a 4-hour cut of the 3 films combined that is genuinely good and true to the book. The guy even did new special effects.
Topher Grace did an 85-minute edit of the Star Wars prequels that was apparently completely badass. He took 7-1/2 hours of footage and cut it down to less than an hour-and-a-half.
Dustin Lee did the edit. I agree it's excellent.
I feel like all of the problems with TLJ started with TFA. TFA decided that Luke's post-RotJ life was an abysmal failure and that he went into hiding and TLJ was forced find meaning in that. TFA should have started the trilogy as a New Jedi Order story in my opinion.
Thank you! I have always thought this.
Setting the series back to square one didn’t open up opportunities, it just limited where you could do going forward
That was my realization as well. I left TLJ pensive and thought about it for two hours realizing that what I disliked of it came from TFA. I enjoyed the visuals and the music, but I could not enjoy the story built on the beginning of TFA.
Rebel Moon is legitimately the worst movie I have ever seen, and I really look forward to you guys suffering through it and telling us about it.
Dude I couldn't believe how much I hated it. An insult to science fiction
I honestly enjoyed it. But it’s definitely terrible.
It’s truly devoid of any merit.
Hey it's the right one this time!
Right? I was wondering what all the Planet of the Apes talk was for. 😂😂😂😂
Glad we could all share that experience
Dan is referring to the TV Trope known as 'Cerebus Syndrome' in which the longer something goes on, the more serious it becomes, even if it started out as something whimsical.
Dan mentioned Alita: battle angel and the most I can say is it has/ had potential. But after reading the original material as well as the extra stuff the author did later to extend it. The biggest disservice we got was that they rushed through and over looked parts of alita that make the manga fantastic
27:00 Fantastic work Ollie, keep it up!
3:10 It is only season one of The Office that is pure discomfort humor. It gets so much better. Peak Office is as funny as peak Arrested Development. Give it another try and start from season two where they toned down the cringe and made characters nicer.
Yeeeep. They were going for the same type of humor as the orignal and dry british cringe humor does not translate very well
Yeah thinking the Office is discomfort humor misses the mark pretty wide.
I can't handle Pam and her emotionally cheating on Roy
Seeing Dr. Leo Marvin as 'good' in that film requires reading him as moral solely based on his profession, when the movie takes quite a bit of time to make clear that he is *not* a good man. He is self-absorbed, sees his family as reflections of him and his own passions, wants to place himself on a pedestal alongside the legends of psychiatry, and can't stand anyone taking any of his limelight. He neglects his own children, except when he wants to control them for the sake of outcomes that make him feel good about himself. He helps his patients because it makes him look good, not because he actually cares about the patients.
Bob walks in the door with his nonsense and dismantles everything that Marvin *thinks* matters to him, leaving him only with that which he ought to love the most: a family that still, despite all that, does truly care about him.
@@SaintBootThey can not like the movie, it's definitely a polarizing one. But I also don't like when people hate something because they have misread it.
My hero here with the right take on What About Bob?!
While I love What About Bob, I can absolutely understand why people hate it. I definitely relate a lot more to poor Doctor Marvin as I've gotten older, but Bill Murrey is still hilarious in that movie and seeing the good doctor melt down is delightful to me.
I feel the same way; I love it but totally get why people would hate it. "I feel good, I feel great, I feel wonderful" it's often my mantra in difficult situations lol
Very cool artwork Oliver! I took AP English and now appreciate that I have that foundation. I only wish they could have included literature that was a little bit more fun-sigh. Btw, big fan of I Robot. Don’t know why but every time it comes on TV I have to watch it. Thx for the fun video! 💜
I listened to this as I was moving. Thanks for the background while packing away my stuff!
19:40 hello! M Night Shyamalan's Avatar!
Dans face on the open, was awesome.
Love you guys!
Ender's Game the movie. Loved the book so much as a kid, the movie gives no time for character development or gravitas. I remember the book feeling so dark to me. The movie feels like a kid's bop version
Rebel Moon is only fun if you watch it with people and shout out what movie/show/character the current scene is based on. It is derivative in a manner rarely seen with a budget.
wait that actually sounds like a blast dont make me convince my poor partner to watch it with me
It keeps throwing me off when there are no food heists and they just go straight to the topic
Maybe food crime is on an all time low
This podcast gives me a little bit of hope for mistborn and Stormlight media. Keep the magic, the wonder, the brilliant writing, the joy. That's what makes these books so fantastic. The modern storytelling of movies and media via Disney, star wars, and Indiana Jones is the things that we hate. Please please don't become them.
Brandon isn't afriad to be fantastical or sincere, unlike modern mainstream movies, filled to the gills with bathos and embarrassed by their own plot.
@24:30 it could also be that these writers are all coming from the same schools; with a focus on techniques & structure that would in ACADEMIA get a good grade, but fails to connect to the wider viewing world
Worst adaptation has to be eragon ! I loved the books and that film just broke my heart...
Yeah that was such a bad adaptation that had the material to be great, they had the budget for it, Jeremy Irons as Brom is perfect. And then just such a terrible movie throwing out everything good from the books.
100 percent agree
Seeing Eragon in theaters as a kid made me so disillusioned with Hollywood, and that attitude has well prepared me for the following two decades lol
Luckily there’s a series coming out soon, and I have hope it’ll be much better
There’s some aspects I quite liked about the adaptation, but that makes the bad stuff feel even worse. And I cannot fathom why zero effort was made in making the elf, or the urgals, or even the dwarves (apparently there are dwarves in it, you wouldn’t know it within the context of the film), actually look like fantasy races.
Jeremy Irons is good though.
If you do end up wanting to watch the Rebel Moon movies, I suggest you wait until August 2nd. Netflix will be releasing the director’s cuts for both movies then. Snyder’s director cuts are always better than the initial studio cuts.
I was ready to write a vehement defence of James Joyce, but I loved hearing your comments on his work.
There seems to be this notion that when one doesn't like something they think it was bad, or that others are deluded in their enjoyment. But there are so many things where you can see that it's objectively great but you just don't get into it. You don't have to enjoy everything that is good and well-made, just like you don't have to hate awful blockbusters.
What a wonderfully earnest podcast. Thanks for making it!
If Brandon doesn't think Newt really takes the main role in the first movie, I want to hear his opinion on the second, where Newt is actively struggling not to be part of the plot.
My own answer right now among all media, and I’m surprised it wasn’t mentioned by Brandon when discussing the Hobbit, is hands down ‘Rings of Power’. I wanted to love it so much but it’s just such a train wreck.
I understand that people don’t like Fantastic Beasts but I’m always surprised when they say it’s the worst. It’s easily Yates’ best HP film and it did bring back the whimsy of the wizarding world. The HP films generally don’t have that outside of the first couple, and maybe 4. The last four movies were so dreary that FB felt like a great new direction. Also it had beasts!
I found the first to be decent. But 2 and 3 are horrible and catastrophically horrible.
I agree. Idk what film Brando Sando was watching, the first Beasts movie was very whimsical
@@michaelknight3135 I guess he must have something against New York
Nah, I was surprised by how good that pick was. I've watched the movie twice and both times I wouldn't be able to tell you what happened because I was so bored I couldn't focus on it. I'm not a huge movie watcher, and I'm not sure where I'd rank it, but I didn't like it.
I loved the first one! I do see Brandon's points a little (many others have those opinions too) but imo they show in the second two a lot more lol. The first was so good and introduced a lot of potential. But my perspective is probably different because 1) I'm character driven 2) I had only newly been introduced to the wizarding world so I was pretty open to different stories or takes on it 3) I consumed a lot of hp lore and book/movie theories lol
As a diehard fan of the Hobbit trilogy (as well as a diehard fan of the book) I think it's important to appreciate that the films aren't telling the story of the book; they are tying the events of the book to the events of the Lord of the Rings. When Tolkien wrote the Hobbit, he didn't intend to set it in Middle-earth (the rewrites of the Riddles in the Dark chapter are a clear indication of this). Jackson took elements from the lore and weaved them into the films. The Hobbit trilogy is the book + lore... it doesn't meaningfully change anything that occurred in the books.
Topher Grace famously made a fan edit of the Star Wars Prequel trilogy. He did a private showing which people raved about. I don't think he did a Hobbit cut, but i could be wrong and he could have done both.
Edit: Turns out he did a 2 hour cut! Again not many people have seen it.
It's Dustin Lee who edited down The Hobbit trilogy into one movie. It's done very well and I recommend it highly.
It's funny how much Brandon's taste and way of seeing the world match in so many ways...but then we definitely have some differences in what media we like/dislike.
Thank you Brandon I felt the exact same way about Fantastical Beasts but didn't know how to put it in words.
I think I need at least one more episode on this topic. 😂 Feels like you barely scratched the surface.
If anyone handling the account sees this I was wondering if any of their kids write? Is that something they encourage or would encourage if that’s the case?
So fun when Oliver is working!
I’ve said it for years, Zach Snyder would make an amazing Dragon Ball Z live action movie
Huzzah! Congrats to the team on finishing with SA5! Hopefully you folks get to take a little break.
I love What About Bob....
TV tropes has a name for the long form web comic problem: "Cerebus Syndrome", after a well-known web comic that pulled a very fast descent into seriousness.
I am surprised that nobody mentioned Loss here
It happens in actual comics as well. Spider-Man is often a victim of the writers just being cruel to him after while.
Similarly the original run of Spider-Gwen goes super dark and just plain miserable after a while. This gets lampshaded brilliantly with the Watcher who's watching her world refusing to continue watching because it’s not fun anymore, leading to a visit for another Watcher to get him back to doing his job who is also horrified and confused when he starts watching as well.
The term may have come from a webcomic, but Cerebus itself was a print comic.
Aaaannnnddd we’re back!
After watching Rings of Power, I realized I might’ve been too harsh on the Hobbit movies
With Luke, the part I didn't like was the fact that Luke tried to kill young Kylo Ren because he had a vision about what Kylo was to become. I mean... Did Luke completely forget that you can turn back from the Dark Side? That no one is 100 % evil? If I had written that movie I would've have Luke trying everything he could to keep Kylo from straying to the Dark side! And when Kylo eventually did kill everyone at the new academy, Luke could still go into exile. Perhaps he has lost faith in himself and his ability to establish a new,this time good, Jedi order!
That would definitely work for Luke's character. But the problem is, without Luke looking like he was about to kill Ben, the movie would need some other plausibly sympathetic reason for Ben to betray the fledgling Jedi and turn evil.
@@JeremyHoffman Well, a good enough reason would be "Ben was tempted by the Dark Side". I mean Star Wars doesn't really need another reason besides that. Maybe Ben actually believes that the Dark Side is more powerful and so he one day simply leave, despite all Lukes attempts to keep him on the Light side.
I see how Fantastic Beasts is disappointing to some but I genuinely find it so good for exactly the same reason Brandon disliked it. No need for big plot sometimes it’s fun to just hang out with characters in a familiar world. It’s my favorite cozy fantasy story
Exactly! As a character driven consumer I just loved it and it was really heart warming to me
The fact that Brandon hates the FIRST Fantastic Beasts that much is hilarious, given that it's the only watchable one of the three.
The one thing that frustrates me in stories is the concept we need to show how badass, smart or skilled this person is. Ok let's take these other awesome characters and they make a mistake that their reputations would suggest they wouldn't make and the hero corrects it. So our hero is not amazing so much as the bar is lowered.
Idk about Dan's theory about sociology thing. Because to say that this trend has "suddenly become popular because it reflects some widespread emotional feeling" makes it seem like the movies that employ this trope have been successful, or grabbed a hold of the audience. When in reality TLJ was so widely hated that they had to abandon the whole plotline and reboot the trilogy in the third act, Marvel movies have had a very notable decline in the box office since they began to embrace this trend, and Indiana Jones isn't exactly breaking records.
But I do think his analysis might be correct in that there are probably echo chambers within Hollywood and California that are so detatched from the rest of the world that they truly believe those things to the point where that is the influencing what we recieve.
TLJ was like the highest grossing movie of the year, a minority complained so much it spooked Kathleen, but they didn't "reboot the trilogy'" or abandon any plotlines
First Fantastic Beasts was cute and kind of OK. The sequel was actively offensive to humanity.
Normally Dan says that his opinions aren’t popular, but the most true thing he has ever said was that Ethan Frome is a bad book. Amen to that. Worst book I have had the displeasure of being forced to read.
I hate Ethan Frome so much. The world would be so much better without it. Have no idea why they force kids to read it.
In defense of the new Ghostbusters, Winston is very successful and actually keeps the other two old ghostbusters afloat financially. Not only that he actually kept and updated their old ghost fighting weapons. So I wouldn’t count them, or at least him, as being washed up.
And the youngsters win by figuring out Egon's plan and implementing it.
I appreciate Brandon’s comments on The Last Jedi so much. That film fractured the fanbase that was 70s and 80s kids. By taking a big crap on Luke Skywalker. It was heartbreaking. Even Mark Hamill was broken by it.
Love The Hobbit extended editions.
My experience with the Luke Skywalker stuff was very different, but maybe it isn't really the movie's fault (or merit). I became a Star Wars fan when I rewatched the OT at 18 years old. Luke's determination and ability to move on uplifted me in my darkest hour. While I finished my high school days on a very happy note after two years of struggling, things didn't work out for me in college. But two years later, the "Imposter syndrome Luke" movie released. Maybe I misread it, but the message I got from Luke's arc in that movie was that, deep down, he was still the very same hero from RotJ, and valid, even after become a "failure". And guess what? That was just what I needed back then to set my life back on track. And it worked! Maybe it was awful character assasination, but by mere chance it worked wonderfully due to the very specific mindset I had when watching both movies.
I loved "What about Bob" purely for watching Richard Dreyfus go crazy. His performance in that movie is what did it for me when I watched it back in the day.
I've been saying I enjoy Battle Field earth for years. Massively under rated. Is it good? No. Does it make even a little bit of sense? NO. But it's fun to watch. Glad I have someone to back me up finally
The Hobbit trilogy had no business being a trilogy.
It was shorter than any of the LOTR books.
Yes finally someone who hates What About Bob as much as I do!!
My thoughts on the Last Jedi are the same as both of yours hahaha. The Audacity is amazing. The treatment of Luke, in context of episode 8 is fine, but in context of episodes 4-6 is awful
I saw Eternals three times in theatres cause I went with friends. The first time I watched it I didn’t think too much and it was fine, the second and third times and thinking about it made me hate it so much. I legit could still not remember a single character’s name, they just abandoned the cool villain, like…. Ugh. The only thing you could say is that it was pretty. But it presented soooooo many issues and was so bad. It retroactively made Thanos correct, and just….. fuming still
With the discussion of how much Brandon and Dan love bad movies, I’m now looking forward to their appearances on RedLetterMedia
Amazon's depiction of The Wheel of Time absolutely pisses me off. They made changes for no reason.
The awkward situation harming a decent person storyline - the one that immediately came to mind to me is The Cable Guy. I didn’t fully hate it and there were a few laugh aloud moments, but it was more uncomfortable than fun to watch overall.
I usually disagree with Dan but rarely with Brandon. Fantastic Beasts was actually my first taste of the wizarding world and I still like the first one. It was magical enough that I went to the theme parks and read all the books. I’d love to debate him on this one.
I loved it too! I watched it shortly after binging the books and the movies. I think that might be why I was open to a different take on the world?
How dare! Morbius is the highest grossing Morbius movie of all time! It made Morbillions!
For all its flaws, the "Frasier" revival is an interesting counter-example to the "old hero is now all washed up" trend.
Frasier is portrayed as having become extremely successful in the period between the original and the revival, and his flaws in the new show are all ones which are drawn directly from the earlier versions of the character.
Writing could stand some improvement, but the dynamic for how the protagonist is portrayed is almost the polar opposite of the current norm.
This conversation about washed up former heroes made me think of the revival of “Gilmore Girls.” I remember watching the first of the four new episodes with my mom, and both of us sitting there after it was over, stunned at how little our heroines accomplished and how unhappy they were. I tried to cheer my mom up by saying, “Well, in any story, they have to start low so the characters can rise up and triumph - I think this is just setting up Rory’s later triumph.” Unfortunately, the whole revival was a disappointment, and a lot of digital ink has been spent trying to explain why, but in my opinion, Brandon summed it up best. Here are a few phrases he said that I feel encapsulate Rory and Lorelei in the revival:
“Actually not accomplished anything”
“Breaks what came before”
A narrative needs “a great conflict and troubles”
“Your heroes don’t actually succeed”
"Fear & Loathing in Las Vegas" was a great adaptation
I love that his high school English teacher made him read Finnegan’s Wake. It’s 600 pages of a made up dialect from dozens of languages that Joyce smashed together in an attempt to troll his audience. It’s mostly gibberish. That high school teacher must have really disliked his class to put them through that kind of hurt. I love that the book exists since Joyce spent nearly two decades writing it, but I would never read it myself. My professor gave me the book as a “graduation present” because I was a class clown and he wanted the last laugh.
Yall got close. I won’t take no ghostbusters slander.😂
I enjoyed you both talking about James Joyce. Amusingly, you both kept getting Finnegans Wake and Ulysses confused. I fully understand your takes on Joyce's works. I will say that Dubliners is pretty depressing, and that's kind of the point. Though, being subjected to it three years in a row is painful.
I think I'm shocked that anyone can hate The Dead.
Had to read that in college and still think it's one of the greatest short stories. My Joyce knowledge is still otherwise lacking, despite having since read Artist.
I love what about bob. My sister wanted to watch it every day when she was like three.
For the discussion on Joyce-they were referencing Molly Bloom’s soliloquy, which is part of the end of the book. And here’s a pretty funny reference to it. th-cam.com/video/HviIFg9ePuY/w-d-xo.htmlsi=bCp6ZsUghGUtxkD8
23:00
I think there is a fundamental thing that people either forget, or didn't really notice or realize about the ending of the original Star Wars trilogy in Return of the Jedi for Luke specifically. He failed. He fell to the dark side at the end. He gave in to the rage and the hate. He tried to kill the Emperor and then defeated Vader at the end only through his rage, anger and grief. He only stopped when he realized he had become exactly what his father was. And, ultimately, it was Anakin who defeated the Emperor, not Luke. Yes, he gave up that darkness at the end, in the last moment, but he absolutely fell and yet people act like he was this paragon of virtue and heroism instead of what he really was: the fallen hero who only redeemed himself at the very last second. His character was absolutely ripe, in a storytelling sense, for future conflicts and inner turmoil.
I 100% believe there are many things you can criticize the sequel trilogy for. However, I think the criticism that they 'ruined' Luke is largely driven by rose-tinted nostalgia and not on how the character was actually portrayed in the films.
Just curious, anyone know what pen he is using to sign?
You guys HATE THE OFFICE?! 😭 lol I'm just teasing, but seriously. It's so good! lol
What adaptation is so bad that I hate it? Sorry, but it's Wheel of Time. It's so different from the books that I frankly cannot see it as Wheel of Time anymore. These are not the characters I know, this is not the world I know, and this is not the story I wanted to see adapted. I frankly hate the show and cannot watch it.
That's unfortunate, but at least you presumably aren't hate watching it and railing against what it isn't after every episode. WoT should be judged on what it is instead of what it isn't. When done so, it's a mixed bag full of some excellent aspects, some horrible choices, and everything between.
@@watcherofwatchers Well what it isn't is Wheel of Time, and they should have called it something else so that people who wanted Wheel of Time wouldn't be so grievously disappointed.
@@watcherofwatchersBecause they chose to adapt a series, it has to be judged at least somewhat in relation to the books. It would be completely unreasonable to expect someone not to.
@@fullparagon7468 That's completely false. You don't agree with the choices that were made, but it is still Wheel of Time. Be disappointed, but get over it.
@@tyleresplin3414 You are purposefully being obtuse. Of course it's going to be compared, but it's often done so unfairly and without nuance or understanding. It's quite irrational.
Shout out to Order of the Stick, a webcomic somewhat guilty of what Dan complained about (getting more serious over time), but made it work and is still funny.
If you guys had seen Rebel Moon before this podcast, this would perhaps be your #1 bad 😂 would love to hear your thoughts if you end up watching it lol
Point of order about Ghostbusters Afterlife (the one with the kids)
Ray, Peter and Winston do show back up at the end to help deal with the Problem, Ray having been apparently inspired out of his depression by Phoebe's call.