As an electrical engineer, my suspicion is that there is no feedback to hold the burner element at a fixed temperature. If it's open-loop and you have process variation that can permit parts that can run too hot, this is just going to be a continuous point of failure. If, on the other hand, the temperature is required to hit that smoking point, either there needs to be an appropriate insulator or that section of body should be made more robust.
Sorry to hear about all these issues you're having. I'm definitely one of those people who enjoys using all of the features of a model, especially smoke. I don't always have it on, but I would not keep a model with a blown smoke unit. Anyway, I sincerely hope you have all these issues sorted out with the manufacturers. Thank you for another informative video. I look forward to your Marklin insider loco review that you briefly showed. I'm planning to order the Trix version of this model in January. Merry Christmas!
Thank you for the most encouraging words! Now that i know you're thinking of getting the Trix version of this wonderful locomotive, I'll endeavor to get it reviewed very well so that you'll know what to expect :)
Haven’t owned any HO scale locomotives with smoke but I’ve had a few Lionel engines where the smoke units got so hot that they melted. One in fact had a nice candle sized flame coming out of the stack
Great review pointing out significant problems which must be remedied! There were also a report on TH-cam of the Broadway Limited Norfolk and Western Class A boiler deforming due to smoke unit heating. Perhaps more good reason to make smoking locomotives out of die cast as opposed to plastic. I love the look and appearance and fidelity to detail and prototype of the Broadway Limited locomotives but they need to overcome operational issues.
@@DoctorHobby Cause they are still using early 2000's chip technology. It is sad especially for the prices they charge. Smart companies realize using in-house chips is not worth it so outsource to companies that specialize in it like Soundtraxx, TCS, and ESU. I planned on making a big order with them since I like steam but the HO market for steam is atrocious. It is pretty much Broadway or Bachmann (Athearn if you like Union Pacific/Southern Pacific). Tons of companies make diesels but steam gets the shaft.
@@OriginalBongoliath steam is expensive. MTH had really nice die cast models with excellent smoke units. but their sounds were bad and their support was terrible
@@OriginalBongoliath The chip has nothing to do with it.Control is control. Problem is how they are using it.They have the ability to see temp with 20th century technology processors .If it is over temp it should be able to shut down and not overheat and melt things. They are doing it the easy way not the right way obviously to keep the cost down. Profits before quality job is all it is.
My first experience with Broadway Limited was an N-Scale NW-2 with Paragon 3 sound. It looked great, but the headlight soon burned out. I sent it back to BLI at my expense, they examined it, repaired it and sent it back to me at their expense. It seems to run fine now. I've recently acquired two N-Scale F-7A's with Paragon 4 sound, along with a dummy B-unit, they look and sound great, and hopefully will continue to do so. I've resisted the temptation to purchase BLI steam locomotives, as they seem to have several issues, so I'll wait awhile before I buy any of them.
Well it sounds like you're doing a bit better than average. I wonder if there are differences between some of the manufacturers that BLI uses for its N scale products vs its HO. I hope your general good luck continues. I'll bite the bullet for everyone and continue to purchase their products to give the viewers an idea of what they're getting.. thank you so much for watching!
Thank you for doing these videos. If there is bad news regarding a new product, let it be said. I hope it will get BLI to do better quality control. We should not have to put up with such quality considering how much these things cost. For now, I'm happy with installing TCS WOW sound decoders into yellow box Atlas/Kato locos.
I have a friend who pre-ordered a BLI N&W A Class and had the same issue with the smoke unit, it overheated and melted part of the boiler. I typically run my engines without the smoke units on, but If I do, I always put smoke fluid into the stack before hand, BLI does not put fluid in the stack from the factory, and that's a flaw because the smoke unit automatically turns on regardless of fluid or not causing damage. p4 and p3 have been very disappointing, my only issue with P3 is just how the chuffing breaks after a certain speed. It's very frustrating, and the price tag on these models doesn't help either
The story is just becoming more and more common. The only people who don’t seem to have problems are people just use the hard switch to turn the smoke unit off, or diehard fans who maybe have been really lucky. I’m starting to wonder why Broadway Limited just doesn’t go ahead and call it quits on the smoke units for now, admit that the technology is not there for them, and try again at a later date. Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts and continued happy model railroading!
This is why I got rid of my smoke unit in my ATSF 3751 and added more weight in it, and I am happier with the extra incredible pulling power than the smoke stuff. To each their own on smoke or not to smoke.
I got the new GS-4 4449 BNSF Excursion (P4) and ran it for less than hour probably and it started shorting out. I had the smoke on. Smokecwas working fine all the way until the loco started shorting out. This was at the club. I took it home and tested it the next day and no shorting. No idea what is wrong with it. Under warranty though, either way.
I bought a Norfolk and western class a from them for Christmas. I had a similar case with the smoke unit burning so hot the boiler near the smoke stack warped. The train still runs, but I don’t think I will run smoke anymore.
Hello, that with smoke bothered me too, so I found setting for it. You have to in CV246 set Bit 7 = 0. Then will the smoke be set to OFF after power ON by default and you can turn smoke ON anytime by F7 as desired. It's a pitty you got such negative experience with BLI models. I got a lot of BLI model with no issues. Tomorrow should I finally become my BLI UP 844 so hopefully will be everything OK. Of course she comes with Paragon 4 which I plan to wipe out and replace with ESU LokSound 5. I will make a video review then. I make model trains video reviews on my channel. All the best and enjoy trains... 😊 Max.
Oh, thank you for this! Wonderful! It won't stop these short circuits, but it will help the locomotive act the way it should put of the box! I know you and watch your channel regularly! I have hoped to obtain your sound file for the CD Skoda locomotive that i have. It is such a unique sound, but the decoder by ACME doesn't even try to capture it! It adds to the misery index, for certain.
Hi there!, I might find some reason for that! I was talking to my friends a few days ago and noticed that I am using the ROCO Z21 white box as the decoder. This white box has a output voltage of 18-24V, which is higher than the voltage of the train. I am not sure if that is the case of melting down the boilers but I guess it could happen.
It might not solve anything and there definitely seem to be more problems with the smoke units, but one I got pointed to (by BLI support) is that even when F7 turns it off (or the loco just sits at the layout not started), the smoke units are still under low voltage (why???) and evaporate the oil slowly, so when then powered on, they instantly burn the system. A solution that works so far for me is for them to be stored on tracks that can be cut off unless you want to use them. This way you have more control of the power going into the unit, the other thing to do is to be fairly generous with the oil, definitely not rely on those 15-20 minutes they claim, especially with higher smoke intensities. I have three BLI loco, one got burnt due to the off-voltage I mentioned, but since replacement runs fine, though they're all not getting the same mileage the smokeless are.
An interesting way to handle the issue but things like this always make me wonder just why it has to come to goofy contortions like this. I only track my locomotives when I run them and I’ve set them to require F7 to be on to run the smoke. But the second time they blew, they blew within minutes of tracking them…, so I don’t know what that all means.. blargh
I really thought about buying a NW class A and Y6A or B from BLI as soon as they rerelease the models….. Now I am really hesitant. As I am from Germany and can’t easily send them back to America if there is a problem. Any other American brand that makes these locos and doesn’t have these many problems?
Yes, it’s a blown smoke unit with a fan pulsed to the chuffing sounds. Looks like you’re having the same problems so many are with the smoke units. You have my sympathies :(
My 4467 from BLI also cracked. Their support seems to only be via e-mail and took 2 days to just to get a reply and another 2 days to reply to their questions. The repair will take 7+ weeks, I pay to ship to them too. Not a happy engineer at $500 for the engine.
They've gotten to the point where they're paying for my returns now, but there are a lot of returns coming back to them so I'm wondering if they're starting to feel compelled in a way... I think it would be easier just to clean these electronics up
Whelp, I'm here after owning a BLI Paragon 4 PRR E6 Post-war Loco for a week and the smoke already stopped working. I've followed all instructions per the manual and don't think I did anything wrong. Should I invoke the warranty and send back? That's an expensive loco (paid $450 at a local shop), so pretty bummed....
The only issue with a BLI steam engine is that the cab light in one of my Milwaukee S3 class Northerns doesn’t work, but that’s not much of an issue and I just turn the smoke units off with the switch under the cab on the ones I have that have a smoke unit and a minor cosmetic issue on my Paragon3 Santa Fe 3751 where the window glazing was glued into the incorrect window hole on the fireman’s side of the engine.
Hi my Union Pacific ES44ac only 3mos old just died my MRC prodigy advance display now says overload whenever I put it on the track. I am not going to trust their products anymore especially after hearing your review. Thanks a million!
Argh.. a short-definitely not good from a new locomotive! I can understand your frustration and commiserate with you, my friend. Thank you so much for watching and I hope better luck for you in the future.
yeah my t1 smoke stack was also melted only in few laps. I am new to the HO model recently and I love the smoke feature of it. I was concerned that maybe i add to much of smoking fluid into the smoking unit, but watching this video makes me know that i am not a single case. Thanks for sharing the information to us! Also i would like to know is ghe BLI going to repair the motor under this condition? or they just give you a new one?
I’m sorry this happened to you. That’s why I posted this so that people don’t think theirs is an isolated incident. They will repair it for you, not give you a new one, but they will repair it for free. I actually have a follow up video coming out for this pretty quickly.
Thanks for the video- I just ordered a BLI RDG T1- haven't received it yet. I don't use the smoke units ever, as to me it looks silly. But I do appreciate you taking the time to post this as the video description had me worried! I always turn the smoke unit switch off on the underside of the unit. At least my other BLI Pennsy steamers have such a switch. In fact, on my PRR L1s I tore the entire unit down and physically removed the smoke unit. I am also changing out the BLI decoder for a TCS WOW Sound and going to try one of the Scale Sound Systems "Boiler Barker" speakers located in the smoke box. May do a similar thing for the T1 but keep the BLI decoder- at least for now. Again- thank you for posting!
Have you heard of the K First HO QJ steam locomotive, I tried searching it on the internet and found nothing. Apparently, the K First HO QJ steam locomotive states it has DCC and sound and smoke but I haven’t seen any pictures or videos of the said model.
@@DoctorHobby Chinese versions are available already although they got some criticism for inaccuracies. Not sure about American versions (if there will be any)
Thank you for your video, you've scared the HELL out of me now! I have a BL 2882 N&W! A friend of mine bought it for me, for a Bday gift, and I have no receipt, what would I do? And the money we pay, for these things? The smoke should work, or not be an option! Lord-have-mercy! I watched another video on, steam channel, and the guy was talking pre-pandemic pricing for BL, and their motives price went up almost 200 when everyone else's, was approx 75-100? And honestly? I love the BL products! Absolutly beautiful
At least it seems like they've been thinking about these issues, but you're right in that it should have never been an issue to begin with. There have been too many companies doing smoke units too well for them to have not learned how to do one by now. As far as your dilemma.. uuugh.. yeah.. you can turn it off, but then that detracts from the fun almost as much as one melting down, I suppose. Tough choices, for sure.
BLI's Biggest Problem is they don't offer DCC ready, have not had any issue's with the smoke. Had a problem with a k4 Streamline Motor , they sent me new parts and I fixed .They do seem to have great Service and that means a lot. Sorry for your bad luck and Happy New Year and Festsvis .
Thanks tons.. Best of times to you, too. Their electronics have been suspect for some reason, but ordering DCC-ready would at least allow people to just their own electronics to some extent.. and they would sound better, too..
Problem, Broadway Limited Imports hasn’t done DCC ready since BLI Blueline got discontinued in 2010. But on the other hand, I actually agree with you because DCC ready BLI models actually “helps” for new modellers to get into the hobby and add whatever DCC sound decoders as desired. E.g. BLI DCC ready model + ESU Loksound 5.0 with sounds for Loksound 5 = Good performance, controllable smoke unit and decent to good sound
I see you are using a lot of the Bachmann EZ track, same as I do, as I don't have a permanent layout. What controller are you using with it. I'm still only using the Bachmann EZ Command controller unit with the 5 amp booster. I'm thinking of up grading system but no sure what to go to as I'm unsure of being able to control the Bachmann DCC turnouts with another controller. I've tried using Tam valley accessory decoders with the Bachman controller and I can't get any action. I'm thinking that the DCC turnouts use a loco address rather than a accessory address. Any help or advice will be taken. And Hello from New Zealand
Howdy there, Down Under! I’m one of the few people in the U.S. who has a New Zealand-built car in their garage, I’m sure. I use à Marklin Central Station 3+ and I can’t speak specifically about your turnout machines since I don’t have any familiarity with them. I’m going to use custom-built machines when I finally get to that.
@@DoctorHobby Thanks pal, hitting up everyone I can find on the TH-cam. LoL 🤣 Bachmann help centre do t want to listen. Kiwi built car in your garage. Now you've got another interest. Mind me asking what it is. There was never a lot built here unless your talking 1920's - 1970's
Does bli put smoke in the model from the factory? I bought my class a and in a few seconds it made a terrible smell and I stopped it and I looked and it was melted.
Never buy locomotives with smoke units. I bought a USRA light 4-6-2 a few weeks ago. It doesn’t have a smoke unit and it works like a dream. From what I’ve been able to gather, the smoke units are nothing but trouble for dcc equipped model trains. I tend to avoid models with smoke units and I’ve never had a problem in my life. I also like to custom fit my models with Bachmann smoke units, as those are way smaller than Broadway Limited smoke units.
I'm looking at getting a Bachmann replacement smoke unit to add to me Spectrum K4, it's DCC with sound, so hoping smoke will finish off the model. Do they work okay, and to what pads, wires do I connect it to please. I only run the Bachmann EZ Command controller unit, so not sure if I'm able to assign it to any of the usable CVs I have access too. 5hanks for any of your help, and Hello from New Zealand
For what they cost it should work and never have a problem with the so called technology advancements .All that detail on a steam engine model does not matter if the main detail of smoke billowing in sequence is not there . Fine scale detail does not matter when it is 10 feet away ,but no smoke 10 feet away makes it lacking the main detail and might as well be a Tyco.Oh ya Tyco did have chuffing smoke ,but seem to only last not long due to build quality.We are being played for suckers by these company's and should not stand for it.Have them make them right and do not settle for good enough ,send them back and keep doing it so either they get it right or go under. Then a company that does it and does it right gets the money well earned.
I have a Broadway Limited PPR streamline engine, lokgs great but don't run well, stoppage and jumps the track. My local shop I bought it from, will buy it back for less or come out to see what is wrong. Didn't know I can send to Broadway Limited; it is less than a year and never a complete lap on my layout. Nice to know others have problems with steam engines
Yes, they even seem to be pretty good about taking back and repairing locomotives that aren't under warranty. I've never had to do this but people have reported good results with this? I'm not sure how much they charge, however. I'd love to hear more about your experience as you send it back to them and the follow-up to that. Thank you for writing.
you know there's a switch underneath locomotive that will turn off the smoke unit completely so you wont have that problem of it coming on when you power the locomotive on.
I have heard numerous complaints about the poor performance of the paragon 3 & 4 decoders from BLI locomotives, especially their steam models with the faulty smoke units. The performance reliability of the decoders and smoke units is awful, BLI really needs to solve this performance reliability issue of their decoders & smoke units, until then I will not purchase any BLI locomotives. I hope that your BLI steam locomotive models perform better in the future without issues, Tom.
I think Paragon 4 was an attempt to remedy some of 3’s issues, but that really hasn’t come to pass. Other companies are doing these things well, so I’m not sure why BLI is having these problems. My European steam engines have great smoke units and work really well.
Something I’d suggest you try if a paragon 3 or 4 engine dies, do a factory reset via CV programming. I have a broadway mikado that is a pain in the butt. Occasionally it acts up and refuses to respond (this has happened twice in 4 months) and a buddy showed me this trick. CV programming the factory Reset has fixed the engine both times so far.
It is so as long as they’re still under warranty; but what’s bad is that they only warranty their replacement work for 60 days, so you can potentially lose warranty time if you have to utilize it in the first place.
I would scrap the smoke units who needs them and all that fancy junk in fact it seems the more crap they put into those fancy 'ho' locomotives the more likely something is going to go wrong.
BLI needs to just make their models actually functional then there worth the prices they sell them for. 10/10 for detail, 5/10 for power and just small problems that should have been checked over.
Yes, indeed... I'm just not sure why they can't get these fundamentals right... Crappy pickups and basic electronics in this day and age? Just doesn't make sense
I've watched this video several times now and it breaks my heart especially since there are Paragon 3 and 4 models I really want but don't feel like gambling with my time and money getting a lemon. If I do buy anything Broadway it will be their Paragon 2 or older stuff because I know they will be more reliable and they haven't changed the tooling whatsoever. Seriously, they are mostly the same models with "newer" decoders that sound exactly like their Paragon 2 and 1 decoders so what am I paying more for again when there is a ton of their used stuff for a fraction of the price that does the same thing? I don't know who is in charge of their QC, who chooses to stick with their 2000's decoders, or who thought it was a good idea to put more effort into a gimmicky subwoofer system than making a quality model first and foremost but they need to be canned ASAP. Also it would help if Lionel stepped up their game in HO steam and when Scaletrains finally configures their ex-MTH line of locomotives to finally bring some real competition to HO steam which is lacking.
Thank you very much for watching it thank you for your kind words. I can totally understand your position, and I think it’s actually best that if a company is making products you want at the quality wanted that you’re not purchase from them. People have been complaining about Broadway Limited electronics or sometime, but they seem to put very Little effort into changing them for the better. How long do they have to use terrible smoke units before they can figure out a way to fix this? How long do their decoders have to sound like trash cans banging against the wall before they fix this? To be honest I’m not even sure why they have to go with their own decoders? One of the use loksound? They can simply brand them as their own if they want but they don’t seem to be interested in doing that. I completely agree that there needs to be more competition in the steam locomotive department. I’m so surprised that so many companies don’t make them. It’s sad that Walthers got out of the business, and I think Atlas could create steam locomotives that are very good. Currently Marklin, through their Trix brand, is producing good American steam locomotives, but there just aren’t enough of them to actually compete. I wish you the best, and please turn into the future as I might have better things to say about Broadway Limited and you can try them again.
@@DoctorHobby I might go back on my word and get the Santa Fe Blue Goose when it comes out since I have the consist to pull it and an old Rivarossi version of it but want to upgrade it as well as their upcoming PRR Atlantic. A conundrum to say the least but no one else does them in HO at least nothing modern. Lionel could kill it in HO if they downscaled their Legacy and Vision Line locomotives instead of just chasing the cheap train set market which is what all they see HO as and why they always wonder why they fail in it every time they try to attempt it. Their 2-10-10-2 in HO would blow everyone out of the water!! MTH did it and they were a much smaller company than Lionel so they have no excuse.
@@DoctorHobby I might have to go back on my word and get their Blue Goose and PRR Atlantic since I have been wanting those types for a while (Have a Rivarossi Blue Goose which was good for its day but is dated now and I had a Mantua Atlantic that was awful). I only wish Lionel would scale down their Legacy and Vision Line steam locomotives in HO they would dominate since they put out stuff none of the other mainline manufacturers make in HO. Imagine their recently touted 2-10-10-2 in HO with smoke and Bluetooth/DCC they would dominate! They are missing out on a huge opportunity MTH saw who were a smaller company but then you wonder why Lionel in HO always goes belly up and worry about bankruptcy.
I have a BLI UP4141 Bush that has a short in it after maybe running for an hour. Got this locomotive for Christmas, didn't know it had a short in it untill last week when i turned my layout back on and it shut down directly, started taking locos from the layout one by one, the BLI was the culprit here. my short disappeared when that one was of the track. Never ever will I nor my wife buy a BLI again. what a piece of crap, you pay good money for something that ran 1 hour or so, I have locos that are from the '80s and still run. very disappointing in this brand. I will stick with my other brands, that I can rely on. will see if they will repair this since it's March now.
Personally I dont run smoke do to me having asthma, but BLI really needs to do better for their customers and the price they charge for their products.
Whoo.. Yes, definitely this hobby shouldn't exacerbate any medical conditions including inflamed airways and enraged attitudes. I hope BLI can at least fix one of these things!
Sucks you’re having these issues dude. I personally ran into one myself with my N&W Class A. I used the smoke unit in it, and I enjoyed it, until I noticed it warping. Never used smoke on it again. I own several models by them, and so far, they’re good. Haven’t had any issues with them as of yet. But yes, sucks these issues keep happening from BLI themselves. I understand your point as to why something like this keeps happening. Really sucks.
@@DoctorHobby I hope so too. If not, I bet they’ll lose a lot of customers. I know someone may have mention that in this vid, ish. But that’s how I also see it.
Plastic & Die-Cast Smoke Unit Are Mixed Up In There Trains, Blame China For Bad Designs Cause Of Money & Greed. I Knew A Lot About This, Including Smoke Units Back When I Meet Mike Wolf Of MTH Electric Trains When He Made The Right Smoke Units Of All Die-Cast & Not or Never Plastic. Die-Cast Steam & Die-Cast Smoke Units. Now That's What Smoke Units Is About. I Hate Bad Designs Of Trains Today
@@DoctorHobby IKR? It's Not Technology At All, It's A Waste Of Crap. I Hope You Find Good Trains That Don't Look Like The Reading T1 With Smoke Units In Them & I Feel Sorry For You And Your Money Going Down The Drain ☹
They're still under warranty, thankfully, and I'll keep pushing these back to BLI until the get it right. The pressure on them will increase as they're forced to deal with these and spend time and money on them.
Bli smoke units sucks period......goes all the way back to Paragon 2......I went threw 4 prr q2 ... 4 prr T1 duplex... 3 prr S2 turbines and 3 GE ac6000.....all do to faulty smoke units....some would leak inside the boiler and the some residue sits on the engine board and shorts out and blows out the decoders. ....been complaining to them for years......now I have n scale and there big boys smoke units goes bad.....went threw three replacement s on my big boy.
These are the reasons I do not own a BLI, Rapido or any expensive plastic piece. I've never paid over $120.00 for an engine. Way overpriced for a hunk of plastic. I'll keep investing in brass as they will be here long after I'm gone. And I do not do DCC. Cheers from eastern TN
If you buy a expensive overpriced locomotive take my advice scrap the smoke unit. and, go old school. you don't see old brass locomotives using smoke units.
Newsflash, if you have a DCC system, you can turn down the heat output of the smoke unit via CV programming. I do that before I even turn the engine on. And I’ve had no problems with anything melting.
I would normally agree with you yet their domestic models with smoke work fine. How sad is it that a Chinese company bests the American model market especially since we rely on them to make our models which is even sadder because of government interference, corporate greed, and ignorant NIMBYists crying over a few smoke stacks but seem to be okay with it in China because somehow it being over there is better for the environment!!
![เป็นไปได้ไหม - WanMai [Performance Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Eh5hItD4Mr0/mqdefault.jpg)
As an electrical engineer, my suspicion is that there is no feedback to hold the burner element at a fixed temperature. If it's open-loop and you have process variation that can permit parts that can run too hot, this is just going to be a continuous point of failure. If, on the other hand, the temperature is required to hit that smoking point, either there needs to be an appropriate insulator or that section of body should be made more robust.
Very very interesting points.. Didn't think of that entire issue. Thanks a million
Sorry to hear about all these issues you're having. I'm definitely one of those people who enjoys using all of the features of a model, especially smoke. I don't always have it on, but I would not keep a model with a blown smoke unit. Anyway, I sincerely hope you have all these issues sorted out with the manufacturers. Thank you for another informative video. I look forward to your Marklin insider loco review that you briefly showed. I'm planning to order the Trix version of this model in January. Merry Christmas!
Thank you for the most encouraging words! Now that i know you're thinking of getting the Trix version of this wonderful locomotive, I'll endeavor to get it reviewed very well so that you'll know what to expect :)
Haven’t owned any HO scale locomotives with smoke but I’ve had a few Lionel engines where the smoke units got so hot that they melted. One in fact had a nice candle sized flame coming out of the stack
It does seem like a bit of an underdeveloped technology, even after all of these years. Maybe it's just not completely meant to be?
Great review pointing out significant problems which must be remedied! There were also a report on TH-cam of the Broadway Limited Norfolk and Western Class A boiler deforming due to smoke unit heating. Perhaps more good reason to make smoking locomotives out of die cast as opposed to plastic. I love the look and appearance and fidelity to detail and prototype of the Broadway Limited locomotives but they need to overcome operational issues.
I'm just not sure why they can't get their electronics in order...
@@DoctorHobby Cause they are still using early 2000's chip technology. It is sad especially for the prices they charge. Smart companies realize using in-house chips is not worth it so outsource to companies that specialize in it like Soundtraxx, TCS, and ESU. I planned on making a big order with them since I like steam but the HO market for steam is atrocious. It is pretty much Broadway or Bachmann (Athearn if you like Union Pacific/Southern Pacific). Tons of companies make diesels but steam gets the shaft.
@@OriginalBongoliath steam is expensive. MTH had really nice die cast models with excellent smoke units. but their sounds were bad and their support was terrible
@@OriginalBongoliath The chip has nothing to do with it.Control is control. Problem is how they are using it.They have the ability to see temp with 20th century technology processors .If it is over temp it should be able to shut down and not overheat and melt things. They are doing it the easy way not the right way obviously to keep the cost down. Profits before quality job is all it is.
My first experience with Broadway Limited was an N-Scale NW-2 with Paragon 3 sound. It looked great, but the headlight soon burned out. I sent it back to BLI at my expense, they examined it, repaired it and sent it back to me at their expense. It seems to run fine now. I've recently acquired two N-Scale F-7A's with Paragon 4 sound, along with a dummy B-unit, they look and sound great, and hopefully will continue to do so. I've resisted the temptation to purchase BLI steam locomotives, as they seem to have several issues, so I'll wait awhile before I buy any of them.
Well it sounds like you're doing a bit better than average. I wonder if there are differences between some of the manufacturers that BLI uses for its N scale products vs its HO. I hope your general good luck continues. I'll bite the bullet for everyone and continue to purchase their products to give the viewers an idea of what they're getting.. thank you so much for watching!
Thank you for doing these videos. If there is bad news regarding a new product, let it be said. I hope it will get BLI to do better quality control. We should not have to put up with such quality considering how much these things cost. For now, I'm happy with installing TCS WOW sound decoders into yellow box Atlas/Kato locos.
Geez! With the cost of these units, nothing like this should be happening…
You’d think, right?
I have a friend who pre-ordered a BLI N&W A Class and had the same issue with the smoke unit, it overheated and melted part of the boiler. I typically run my engines without the smoke units on, but If I do, I always put smoke fluid into the stack before hand, BLI does not put fluid in the stack from the factory, and that's a flaw because the smoke unit automatically turns on regardless of fluid or not causing damage. p4 and p3 have been very disappointing, my only issue with P3 is just how the chuffing breaks after a certain speed. It's very frustrating, and the price tag on these models doesn't help either
The story is just becoming more and more common. The only people who don’t seem to have problems are people just use the hard switch to turn the smoke unit off, or diehard fans who maybe have been really lucky. I’m starting to wonder why Broadway Limited just doesn’t go ahead and call it quits on the smoke units for now, admit that the technology is not there for them, and try again at a later date. Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts and continued happy model railroading!
BLI DOES put smoke fluid in them from the factory. I have 2 P4s that smoked out of the box.
At least BLI repaired your model as they should have. MTH is just giving it's customer base the finger as they head out the door.
I like my MTHes a lot… I’m still buying them when I can find them. Both of the locos I have with smoke units still work just peachy, too..
Had the exact same boiler melting problem on the new I1sa returned it and got an Athearn challenger instead
There will be a video coming out soon about yet another BLI disaster I’ve had…
This is why I got rid of my smoke unit in my ATSF 3751 and added more weight in it, and I am happier with the extra incredible pulling power than the smoke stuff. To each their own on smoke or not to smoke.
I got the new GS-4 4449 BNSF Excursion (P4) and ran it for less than hour probably and it started shorting out. I had the smoke on. Smokecwas working fine all the way until the loco started shorting out. This was at the club. I took it home and tested it the next day and no shorting. No idea what is wrong with it. Under warranty though, either way.
I had a brand new i1sa boiler crack on me resulting in me having to get a replacement unit.
Sounds as if it might be almost epidemic with these types of BLI locomotives.. Blargh
I bought a Norfolk and western class a from them for Christmas. I had a similar case with the smoke unit burning so hot the boiler near the smoke stack warped. The train still runs, but I don’t think I will run smoke anymore.
Hopefully at least you'll make them repair it?
I recently did send it back. Still, I don’t believe I will run the smoke unit once it returns.
Since I have asthma , I shut off my smoke unit by using decoder pro. Smoke units not allowed on club layout .
Hello, that with smoke bothered me too, so I found setting for it. You have to in CV246 set Bit 7 = 0. Then will the smoke be set to OFF after power ON by default and you can turn smoke ON anytime by F7 as desired. It's a pitty you got such negative experience with BLI models. I got a lot of BLI model with no issues. Tomorrow should I finally become my BLI UP 844 so hopefully will be everything OK. Of course she comes with Paragon 4 which I plan to wipe out and replace with ESU LokSound 5. I will make a video review then. I make model trains video reviews on my channel. All the best and enjoy trains... 😊 Max.
Oh, thank you for this! Wonderful! It won't stop these short circuits, but it will help the locomotive act the way it should put of the box! I know you and watch your channel regularly! I have hoped to obtain your sound file for the CD Skoda locomotive that i have. It is such a unique sound, but the decoder by ACME doesn't even try to capture it! It adds to the misery index, for certain.
Hi there!, I might find some reason for that! I was talking to my friends a few days ago and noticed that I am using the ROCO Z21 white box as the decoder. This white box has a output voltage of 18-24V, which is higher than the voltage of the train. I am not sure if that is the case of melting down the boilers but I guess it could happen.
I'll have an update on this idea soon, but i covered it here: th-cam.com/video/hELVsq8krRs/w-d-xo.html
It might not solve anything and there definitely seem to be more problems with the smoke units, but one I got pointed to (by BLI support) is that even when F7 turns it off (or the loco just sits at the layout not started), the smoke units are still under low voltage (why???) and evaporate the oil slowly, so when then powered on, they instantly burn the system. A solution that works so far for me is for them to be stored on tracks that can be cut off unless you want to use them. This way you have more control of the power going into the unit, the other thing to do is to be fairly generous with the oil, definitely not rely on those 15-20 minutes they claim, especially with higher smoke intensities. I have three BLI loco, one got burnt due to the off-voltage I mentioned, but since replacement runs fine, though they're all not getting the same mileage the smokeless are.
An interesting way to handle the issue but things like this always make me wonder just why it has to come to goofy contortions like this. I only track my locomotives when I run them and I’ve set them to require F7 to be on to run the smoke. But the second time they blew, they blew within minutes of tracking them…, so I don’t know what that all means.. blargh
I really thought about buying a NW class A and Y6A or B from BLI as soon as they rerelease the models…..
Now I am really hesitant. As I am from Germany and can’t easily send them back to America if there is a problem.
Any other American brand that makes these locos and doesn’t have these many problems?
Looks like the bottom smoke is designed to work with the piston strokes? My ES44AC unit stack melted and I'm here looking at these videos.
Yes, it’s a blown smoke unit with a fan pulsed to the chuffing sounds. Looks like you’re having the same problems so many are with the smoke units. You have my sympathies :(
My 4467 from BLI also cracked. Their support seems to only be via e-mail and took 2 days to just to get a reply and another 2 days to reply to their questions. The repair will take 7+ weeks, I pay to ship to them too. Not a happy engineer at $500 for the engine.
They've gotten to the point where they're paying for my returns now, but there are a lot of returns coming back to them so I'm wondering if they're starting to feel compelled in a way... I think it would be easier just to clean these electronics up
Okay, I have the trix version of that Marklin and I have to send mine out for a smile generator repair
The one in the intro m
@@DoctorHobby no the one at the end. The Class 02
Whelp, I'm here after owning a BLI Paragon 4 PRR E6 Post-war Loco for a week and the smoke already stopped working. I've followed all instructions per the manual and don't think I did anything wrong. Should I invoke the warranty and send back? That's an expensive loco (paid $450 at a local shop), so pretty bummed....
Definitely send it back. They'll eventually get the message if enough people send one..
The only issue with a BLI steam engine is that the cab light in one of my Milwaukee S3 class Northerns doesn’t work, but that’s not much of an issue and I just turn the smoke units off with the switch under the cab on the ones I have that have a smoke unit and a minor cosmetic issue on my Paragon3 Santa Fe 3751 where the window glazing was glued into the incorrect window hole on the fireman’s side of the engine.
It's nice to see someone who collects trains from all over the world. I'd suggest you to take a look at the DSB Class E from Trix/Märklin
Hahaha..i suggest you watch for the video coming out a about this awesome locomotive! ;) Thank you for watching!
Friend of mine bought a brand new Paragon 3 N&W A class and it melted really bad. Everyone else at our club has sworn off BLI smoke units
That's very bad to hear, but somewhat consistent with a lot of others' experiences, unfortunately.
Hi my Union Pacific ES44ac only 3mos old just died my MRC prodigy advance display now says overload whenever I put it on the track. I am not going to trust their products anymore especially after hearing your review. Thanks a million!
Argh.. a short-definitely not good from a new locomotive! I can understand your frustration and commiserate with you, my friend. Thank you so much for watching and I hope better luck for you in the future.
yeah my t1 smoke stack was also melted only in few laps. I am new to the HO model recently and I love the smoke feature of it. I was concerned that maybe i add to much of smoking fluid into the smoking unit, but watching this video makes me know that i am not a single case. Thanks for sharing the information to us! Also i would like to know is ghe BLI going to repair the motor under this condition? or they just give you a new one?
I’m sorry this happened to you. That’s why I posted this so that people don’t think theirs is an isolated incident. They will repair it for you, not give you a new one, but they will repair it for free. I actually have a follow up video coming out for this pretty quickly.
@@DoctorHobby Thanks! glad to know that!
You can easily program the decoder to bump down the heat output of the smoke unit. It’s worked for me, and I have no issues.
Idk how so many have issues with BLI I've had many over the years never had electronic issues
Thanks for the video- I just ordered a BLI RDG T1- haven't received it yet. I don't use the smoke units ever, as to me it looks silly. But I do appreciate you taking the time to post this as the video description had me worried! I always turn the smoke unit switch off on the underside of the unit. At least my other BLI Pennsy steamers have such a switch. In fact, on my PRR L1s I tore the entire unit down and physically removed the smoke unit. I am also changing out the BLI decoder for a TCS WOW Sound and going to try one of the Scale Sound Systems "Boiler Barker" speakers located in the smoke box. May do a similar thing for the T1 but keep the BLI decoder- at least for now. Again- thank you for posting!
No problem. Just note that people have had BLI smoke units melt even with the switch in the "off" position..
Have you heard of the K First HO QJ steam locomotive, I tried searching it on the internet and found nothing. Apparently, the K First HO QJ steam locomotive states it has DCC and sound and smoke but I haven’t seen any pictures or videos of the said model.
Those will be out later in the year.. Supposedly 3q or 4q.
@@DoctorHobby Chinese versions are available already although they got some criticism for inaccuracies. Not sure about American versions (if there will be any)
Thank you for your video, you've scared the HELL out of me now! I have a BL 2882 N&W! A friend of mine bought it for me, for a Bday gift, and I have no receipt, what would I do? And the money we pay, for these things? The smoke should work, or not be an option! Lord-have-mercy! I watched another video on, steam channel, and the guy was talking pre-pandemic pricing for BL, and their motives price went up almost 200 when everyone else's, was approx 75-100? And honestly? I love the BL products! Absolutly beautiful
At least it seems like they've been thinking about these issues, but you're right in that it should have never been an issue to begin with. There have been too many companies doing smoke units too well for them to have not learned how to do one by now. As far as your dilemma.. uuugh.. yeah.. you can turn it off, but then that detracts from the fun almost as much as one melting down, I suppose. Tough choices, for sure.
BLI's Biggest Problem is they don't offer DCC ready, have not had any issue's with the smoke.
Had a problem with a k4 Streamline Motor , they sent me new parts and I fixed .They do seem to have
great Service and that means a lot. Sorry for your bad luck and Happy New Year and Festsvis .
Thanks tons.. Best of times to you, too. Their electronics have been suspect for some reason, but ordering DCC-ready would at least allow people to just their own electronics to some extent.. and they would sound better, too..
Problem, Broadway Limited Imports hasn’t done DCC ready since BLI Blueline got discontinued in 2010. But on the other hand, I actually agree with you because DCC ready BLI models actually “helps” for new modellers to get into the hobby and add whatever DCC sound decoders as desired.
E.g. BLI DCC ready model + ESU Loksound 5.0 with sounds for Loksound 5 = Good performance, controllable smoke unit and decent to good sound
They have since come out with their "Stealth" line of DCC Ready models now.
I personally don't use the smoke feature even if it looks amazing but looking at these I definitely want to avoid losing models like this.
It is definitely something to weigh in your mind... Coolness with the potential of destruction... Not the greatest choice to go up against
I see you are using a lot of the Bachmann EZ track, same as I do, as I don't have a permanent layout. What controller are you using with it. I'm still only using the Bachmann EZ Command controller unit with the 5 amp booster. I'm thinking of up grading system but no sure what to go to as I'm unsure of being able to control the Bachmann DCC turnouts with another controller. I've tried using Tam valley accessory decoders with the Bachman controller and I can't get any action. I'm thinking that the DCC turnouts use a loco address rather than a accessory address. Any help or advice will be taken. And Hello from New Zealand
Howdy there, Down Under! I’m one of the few people in the U.S. who has a New Zealand-built car in their garage, I’m sure. I use à Marklin Central Station 3+ and I can’t speak specifically about your turnout machines since I don’t have any familiarity with them. I’m going to use custom-built machines when I finally get to that.
@@DoctorHobby Thanks pal, hitting up everyone I can find on the TH-cam. LoL 🤣 Bachmann help centre do t want to listen.
Kiwi built car in your garage. Now you've got another interest. Mind me asking what it is. There was never a lot built here unless your talking 1920's - 1970's
Does bli put smoke in the model from the factory? I bought my class a and in a few seconds it made a terrible smell and I stopped it and I looked and it was melted.
Yup..it melted. I'm not entirely sure if there is any in there in new ones to be really honest..i can't remember
There is, yes.
Never buy locomotives with smoke units. I bought a USRA light 4-6-2 a few weeks ago. It doesn’t have a smoke unit and it works like a dream. From what I’ve been able to gather, the smoke units are nothing but trouble for dcc equipped model trains. I tend to avoid models with smoke units and I’ve never had a problem in my life. I also like to custom fit my models with Bachmann smoke units, as those are way smaller than Broadway Limited smoke units.
I'm looking at getting a Bachmann replacement smoke unit to add to me Spectrum K4, it's DCC with sound, so hoping smoke will finish off the model. Do they work okay, and to what pads, wires do I connect it to please. I only run the Bachmann EZ Command controller unit, so not sure if I'm able to assign it to any of the usable CVs I have access too. 5hanks for any of your help, and Hello from New Zealand
For what they cost it should work and never have a problem with the so called technology advancements .All that detail on a steam engine model does not matter if the main detail of smoke billowing in sequence is not there . Fine scale detail does not matter when it is 10 feet away ,but no smoke 10 feet away makes it lacking the main detail and might as well be a Tyco.Oh ya Tyco did have chuffing smoke ,but seem to only last not long due to build quality.We are being played for suckers by these company's and should not stand for it.Have them make them right and do not settle for good enough ,send them back and keep doing it so either they get it right or go under. Then a company that does it and does it right gets the money well earned.
I have a Broadway Limited PPR streamline engine, lokgs great but don't run well, stoppage and jumps the track. My local shop I bought it from, will buy it back for less or come out to see what is wrong. Didn't know I can send to Broadway Limited; it is less than a year and never a complete lap on my layout. Nice to know others have problems with steam engines
Yes, they even seem to be pretty good about taking back and repairing locomotives that aren't under warranty. I've never had to do this but people have reported good results with this? I'm not sure how much they charge, however. I'd love to hear more about your experience as you send it back to them and the follow-up to that. Thank you for writing.
you know there's a switch underneath locomotive that will turn off the smoke unit completely so you wont have that problem of it coming on when you power the locomotive on.
While that's true, it misses the point of order. Smoke off on startup no matter what until I turn it on is what I'd like to see
I have heard numerous complaints about the poor performance of the paragon 3 & 4 decoders from BLI locomotives, especially their steam models with the faulty smoke units. The performance reliability of the decoders and smoke units is awful, BLI really needs to solve this performance reliability issue of their decoders & smoke units, until then I will not purchase any BLI locomotives. I hope that your BLI steam locomotive models perform better in the future without issues, Tom.
I think Paragon 4 was an attempt to remedy some of 3’s issues, but that really hasn’t come to pass. Other companies are doing these things well, so I’m not sure why BLI is having these problems. My European steam engines have great smoke units and work really well.
@@DoctorHobby what all other brands are there that are doing the smoke unit?
Something I’d suggest you try if a paragon 3 or 4 engine dies, do a factory reset via CV programming. I have a broadway mikado that is a pain in the butt. Occasionally it acts up and refuses to respond (this has happened twice in 4 months) and a buddy showed me this trick. CV programming the factory Reset has fixed the engine both times so far.
Never had one "die" in that sense so the CV 8 reset won't really bring anything to the table
Unfortunately it seems like buy their stealth units is the only way to go until they fix their issues.
I would avoid buying steam locomotives with plastic boilers.
The ultimate question is whether BLI is appropriately standing behind its product.
Is that the case?
It is so as long as they’re still under warranty; but what’s bad is that they only warranty their replacement work for 60 days, so you can potentially lose warranty time if you have to utilize it in the first place.
@@DoctorHobby That's all I need to know. At the price BLI charges, they need to take better care of their buyers
I would scrap the smoke units who needs them and all that fancy junk in fact it seems the more crap they put into those fancy 'ho' locomotives the more likely something is going to go wrong.
BLI needs to just make their models actually functional then there worth the prices they sell them for. 10/10 for detail, 5/10 for power and just small problems that should have been checked over.
Yes, indeed... I'm just not sure why they can't get these fundamentals right... Crappy pickups and basic electronics in this day and age? Just doesn't make sense
I've watched this video several times now and it breaks my heart especially since there are Paragon 3 and 4 models I really want but don't feel like gambling with my time and money getting a lemon. If I do buy anything Broadway it will be their Paragon 2 or older stuff because I know they will be more reliable and they haven't changed the tooling whatsoever. Seriously, they are mostly the same models with "newer" decoders that sound exactly like their Paragon 2 and 1 decoders so what am I paying more for again when there is a ton of their used stuff for a fraction of the price that does the same thing?
I don't know who is in charge of their QC, who chooses to stick with their 2000's decoders, or who thought it was a good idea to put more effort into a gimmicky subwoofer system than making a quality model first and foremost but they need to be canned ASAP. Also it would help if Lionel stepped up their game in HO steam and when Scaletrains finally configures their ex-MTH line of locomotives to finally bring some real competition to HO steam which is lacking.
Thank you very much for watching it thank you for your kind words. I can totally understand your position, and I think it’s actually best that if a company is making products you want at the quality wanted that you’re not purchase from them. People have been complaining about Broadway Limited electronics or sometime, but they seem to put very Little effort into changing them for the better. How long do they have to use terrible smoke units before they can figure out a way to fix this? How long do their decoders have to sound like trash cans banging against the wall before they fix this? To be honest I’m not even sure why they have to go with their own decoders? One of the use loksound? They can simply brand them as their own if they want but they don’t seem to be interested in doing that. I completely agree that there needs to be more competition in the steam locomotive department. I’m so surprised that so many companies don’t make them. It’s sad that Walthers got out of the business, and I think Atlas could create steam locomotives that are very good. Currently Marklin, through their Trix brand, is producing good American steam locomotives, but there just aren’t enough of them to actually compete. I wish you the best, and please turn into the future as I might have better things to say about Broadway Limited and you can try them again.
@@DoctorHobby I might go back on my word and get the Santa Fe Blue Goose when it comes out since I have the consist to pull it and an old Rivarossi version of it but want to upgrade it as well as their upcoming PRR Atlantic. A conundrum to say the least but no one else does them in HO at least nothing modern.
Lionel could kill it in HO if they downscaled their Legacy and Vision Line locomotives instead of just chasing the cheap train set market which is what all they see HO as and why they always wonder why they fail in it every time they try to attempt it. Their 2-10-10-2 in HO would blow everyone out of the water!! MTH did it and they were a much smaller company than Lionel so they have no excuse.
@@DoctorHobby I might have to go back on my word and get their Blue Goose and PRR Atlantic since I have been wanting those types for a while (Have a Rivarossi Blue Goose which was good for its day but is dated now and I had a Mantua Atlantic that was awful).
I only wish Lionel would scale down their Legacy and Vision Line steam locomotives in HO they would dominate since they put out stuff none of the other mainline manufacturers make in HO. Imagine their recently touted 2-10-10-2 in HO with smoke and Bluetooth/DCC they would dominate! They are missing out on a huge opportunity MTH saw who were a smaller company but then you wonder why Lionel in HO always goes belly up and worry about bankruptcy.
I have a BLI UP4141 Bush that has a short in it after maybe running for an hour. Got this locomotive for Christmas, didn't know it had a short in it untill last week when i turned my layout back on and it shut down directly, started taking locos from the layout one by one, the BLI was the culprit here. my short disappeared when that one was of the track. Never ever will I nor my wife buy a BLI again.
what a piece of crap, you pay good money for something that ran 1 hour or so, I have locos that are from the '80s and still run. very disappointing in this brand. I will stick with my other brands, that I can rely on. will see if they will repair this since it's March now.
Personally I dont run smoke do to me having asthma, but BLI really needs to do better for their customers and the price they charge for their products.
Whoo.. Yes, definitely this hobby shouldn't exacerbate any medical conditions including inflamed airways and enraged attitudes. I hope BLI can at least fix one of these things!
Sucks you’re having these issues dude. I personally ran into one myself with my N&W Class A. I used the smoke unit in it, and I enjoyed it, until I noticed it warping. Never used smoke on it again. I own several models by them, and so far, they’re good. Haven’t had any issues with them as of yet. But yes, sucks these issues keep happening from BLI themselves. I understand your point as to why something like this keeps happening. Really sucks.
I appreciate the sympathy-I really think they can do better and I hope they do!
@@DoctorHobby I hope so too. If not, I bet they’ll lose a lot of customers. I know someone may have mention that in this vid, ish. But that’s how I also see it.
Plastic & Die-Cast Smoke Unit Are Mixed Up In There Trains, Blame China For Bad Designs Cause Of Money & Greed. I Knew A Lot About This, Including Smoke Units Back When I Meet Mike Wolf Of MTH Electric Trains When He Made The Right Smoke Units Of All Die-Cast & Not or Never Plastic. Die-Cast Steam & Die-Cast Smoke Units. Now That's What Smoke Units Is About. I Hate Bad Designs Of Trains Today
This isn't a new technology, so I'm just amazed they can't get this right. So disappointing
@@DoctorHobby IKR? It's Not Technology At All, It's A Waste Of Crap. I Hope You Find Good Trains That Don't Look Like The Reading T1 With Smoke Units In Them & I Feel Sorry For You And Your Money Going Down The Drain ☹
They're still under warranty, thankfully, and I'll keep pushing these back to BLI until the get it right. The pressure on them will increase as they're forced to deal with these and spend time and money on them.
@@DoctorHobby Right, Like I Said. Just Find The Right Ones With No Smoke Units In Them. And Good Luck 🍀
consumer product safety Commission will force a recall and repair or refund
Maybe so.. we'll see how it goes?
@@DoctorHobby This is the only way to get the quality up. CPSC will give the company the option of a voluntary recall.
I won’t buy BLI locomotives anymore. I have a diesel locomotive with the Paragon 3 decoder and it’s been nothing but problems.
That’s the way a lot of people have gone and I can’t say that I blame them at all..
Having similar quality control issues in the record collecting game. Seems like hobbies are just becoming a thing of the past as a result.
That might be.. fewer people, less expertise or care in manufacturing..
Bli smoke units sucks period......goes all the way back to Paragon 2......I went threw 4 prr q2 ... 4 prr T1 duplex... 3 prr S2 turbines and 3 GE ac6000.....all do to faulty smoke units....some would leak inside the boiler and the some residue sits on the engine board and shorts out and blows out the decoders. ....been complaining to them for years......now I have n scale and there big boys smoke units goes bad.....went threw three replacement s on my big boy.
Chinese workmanship
I would never buy a Broadway locomotives I heard way to many bad story
I’m hoping at the end of all of this I can post a video where everything gets better..l we’ll see how it goes…
Letting the tender dangle hurt my soul
These are the reasons I do not own a BLI, Rapido or any expensive plastic piece. I've never paid over $120.00 for an engine. Way overpriced for a hunk of plastic. I'll keep investing in brass as they will be here long after I'm gone. And I do not do DCC. Cheers from eastern TN
If you buy a expensive overpriced locomotive take my advice scrap the smoke unit. and, go old school. you don't see old brass locomotives using smoke units.
Newsflash, if you have a DCC system, you can turn down the heat output of the smoke unit via CV programming. I do that before I even turn the engine on. And I’ve had no problems with anything melting.
See follow up videos
Newsflash! Read all about it! OP eats crow! Should have watched the entire series but didn't!
Made in China
Oddly, all of my models from Chinese companies that actually model Chinese locomotives have smoke units that work great
I would normally agree with you yet their domestic models with smoke work fine. How sad is it that a Chinese company bests the American model market especially since we rely on them to make our models which is even sadder because of government interference, corporate greed, and ignorant NIMBYists crying over a few smoke stacks but seem to be okay with it in China because somehow it being over there is better for the environment!!