It's all about taking as much money from you as possible after the warranty expires....under warranty, it's their dollar. It's called classic American greed. Don't you like the monster that everyone helped create??
Under warranty the manufacturer demands explanation with zero exceptions. They'll pay their tech 3 hours to tear the engine down to pinpoint a problem, also want the parts for examination, which better be right or the claim gets denied and the dealer eats the repair. Out of warranty it's Kind of like how a Doctor is with patients. No one can reliable second guess you.
I had a 2010 Accord V6. Put a resistor inline (bought online) on coolant temp sensor that told ECU that had not quite reached the coolant temp for vcm to kick in. Worked great and cleaned up especially cyl 6 as I bore scoped them all for interest.
@@rodvan-zeller6360 I use VCM Tuner II on my 2011 Odyssey to disable VCM. It works the same way, just intercepts the coolant temp signal to prevent engine from thinking it can use VCM. No codes. System will disable itself if the engine temp reaches too high, also.
If one of those three cylinder deactivation valves is not holding pressure you will drive your car with low oil pressure in the cylinder head unknowingly. I'd say if you are skilled enough to bypass the system yourself, you are probably skilled enough to keep it going for a reasonable cost ;)
"Cylinder deactivation, auto stop/start" the absolute worst inventions on modern cars, I would add "Low oil pressure mode" designed to save .001% fuel economy at the cost of longevity of the engine wear metals. EPA is the reason for any and all environmental concerns, not the fix.
I wonder why the dealer quoted him engine replacement only. To make sure they are getting rid of the customer they usually quote engine AND full wiring harness replacement.
Ivan, I say that Afghanistan mechanic is pretty smart. First he's living in Arizona and second he was able to fix that car to drive for 30,000 miles! I'd say he's off the hook. Then the Honda dealership, well.... Now it's your turn. I'm excitedly looking forward to how you handle this car. I found your Part ! explanation outstanding as usual. Looking forward to Part II. Thanks for Sharing! 🙃🙂
VW S model Jetta here. 6 speed manual. No stop/start. No cylinder deactivation. No lane assist crap. Emergency braking only. 150 HP/ 180lb ft torque. Total fun to drive. Gets better than EPA estimated mileage, as most VWs do. $17,000 brand new in 2019 with 7 yr/70,000 mile warranty. One stupid purge valve replaced very early in it's life and nothing but oil changes. Honda has lost it's way from what it once was.
Oh that delight. Honda actually rebuilt the engine in my boss's 09 because of oil consumption based persistent misfires at about 90k. Drove it another 100-120k on the rebuild before the oil consumption started up again. Traded it for a new Accord with a little turbo 4 and a CVT, we'll see how it holds up long term - so far 75k on that one and no issues. Adding that system ruined one of the greatest engines Japan ever made IMO.
CVT is destined to fail at 100k. As far as the oil consumption goes did Honda revise the piston rings as well as oil change interval schedule? Toyota did both with their oil consumption fiasco and if proper maintenance and intervals were adhered to the oil consumption didn't return on repaired engines. I believe Toyota only added the slightest amount of ring tension.
I just bought a 14 Chevy Cruze Lt for 500. The previous owner bought it in March at crivelli GMC. It had 63k at the time and now has 69k. They were driving down the road and it over heated and engine made noise. They had it towed to crivelli and they told them lower end noise and metal in oil. I went and looked at it and started up the belt was not turning. New harmonic balancer and bolt fixed it. I have the oil filter and I can't see metal on oil. I'm sure that they sold them new car.
Shoutout to the Afghan mechanic lol 🇦🇫 I hate VCM, did a VCM delete for a customer in my Honda Pilot video, it's literally causing the transmission to fail, it doesn't just stress the engine, think about how much roughness goes through the clutch packs when the engine is constantly enabling and disabling cylinders, also destroys engine mounts, it's ridiculous. Looking forward to what you find, interesting one for sure.
You nailed it Ivan.....cyl deact and start stop is pure GARBAGE....along with a load of other CONVENIENCE Features on cars and pickups these days.....friggin computers on wheels....and its gonna get WORSE
It already has with lane assist ,scary as hell when your vehicle decides where it wants to go instead of you steering it. The problem is that you have to turn it off every time you start the car.
Doctors lawyers electricians pilots etc. have to be trained certified or schooled, a mechanic doesn’t. They can walk into a shop open his or her tool box and start trying to fix cars with no training or schooling or certificate needed. I fixed cars for 30+ years was ASE certified most of those which is voluntary. Lots of people out there trying to fix your car and learn at your expense. If there’s a code that’s the part it gets. So as cars get more and more complicated it will happen more and more but there’s still the basics that must be checked.
I know, Eric O had an issue with a customers Chevy truck which was fitted with the 5.3 litre Chevrolet V8 which was fitted with the DOD or AFM cylinder deactivation setup. He just replaced the cylinder number 1 spark plug once a year because it gets oil fouled because the rings & piston got varnished when the cylinder was deactivated & not firing. The fix was to replace the piston rings but they couldn't be bothered doing that because the truck only had a few years to go until it was ready for the crusher because it was full of rust due to being located within the Salt belt at Avoca, New York. In Australia Holden fitted the Chevrolet L76 & L77 (flex fuel).V8 engines into the VE Commodore in 2009, so when Holden first bolted the Chevrolet L76 V8 engine into the series 2 VZ Commodore in 2006, Holden had ordered that engine with the AFM delete done from Chevrolet, that engine was fitted from 2006 in the VZ series 2 Commodore & series 1 VE Commodore in 2006 up until the VE model in 2009. I could run the 3 bolt type of camshaft in the L76 V8 engine & LS7 hydraulic lifters as well as a matching trigger wheel for the camshaft position sensor,fit the standard non AFM oil pump then there's a Valve which needs to be blocked off in the oil pan which is used for the AFM oiling system I think !
My bet is, they didn't adjust the valves properly and the clearances grow as it gets hotter, making 6 come back in. Should probably leakdown them all and readjust them all to rule out bad work. Then clear codes and re-test. Also, make sure those NGK's aren't fakes, that'll run you in circles. That solenoid body may have gobs of silicone blocking ports as well, may want to redo that as well.
I'd go after the mechanical issue on cylinder #6 first. That will let you focus on the electrical/electronic of cylinder #4 without worry of 6 contributing to the engine's known problem. But a terrific diagnosis.
That VCM system is a whole mess of ugly!!!! Since things got worse after the dealer did the valve clearances you do have to wonder if the dealer messed it up. Also, if the owner ignored the timing belt change interval was the oil change interval also ignored? If so there could be some muck in one of the oil passages. Looks to be rather a lot of RTV used during previous repair, could there be some RTV somewhere it shouldn't be? Great work as always Ivan. Cheers. Ben
Agree, those were my guesses too. Dealer probably made cyl 6 clearences too tight, so a valve isn't closing all the way. The VCM issue might be sludge or RTV blocking an oil screen or passage, mechanical damage in the plungers, or maybe blown out RTV. Most people put on RTV way too thick, you don't need a bead of it, just a thin layer you smear on with a finger. When people put big beads of it on I cringe, you're not caulking a window!
I remember working at the dealership and having the sales manager come yell at me for repairing someone's car, saying I should send them to the sales department and not do major repairs. I thought he was kidding the first couple of times, then soon realized he was completely serious. I left that dealership after realizing the bigger a crook you were the more they liked and even celebrated you.
Man I remember a really old Eric O video about a Honda V6 in a Ridgeline that also had mystery misfires, dealer told owner it needed an engine, but it turned out to be a bent valve?? Eerily similar.
Holy crap, Honda too! I’m probably missing something on the operation description, but if the valves are deactivated, would there still not be constant compression and vacuum resistance? Anyway, one more vehicle to add to the “stay away from” list. 👍👍🇺🇸
Yep, the VCM Honda's are not amazing. Good if you can get the mod that disables it. The manual accords don't have the VCM and make a touch extra powet too. Go for an accord coupe 6-6, but there's definitely better and lighter cars among them
Hey Ivan, check the egr lift pid. I have had on a few occasions that the egr gets stuck open slightly, it sits right beside #6 and will dilute the intake mixture causing a misfire. I have also had the valve pause piston in the rocker arms hang up and cause a stumble at tip in throttle and setting codes for valve pause stuck. I had to change the rocker arms in #2 to repair.
I don't understand how shops, especially dealerships get away with this crap. I own a small HVAC business, if I diagnose a problem and I'm wrong I don't charge the customer. Not one damn cent. Has anyone ever tried to sue a shop for charging for a failed diagnosis?
Imagine somebody brings a pc into a repair shop because it was running slow. So the repair shop tells them to replace the hdd and ram as well as add fans and a water cooling system. Charges the person 1000$ for it all and the pc is still running slow. So they tell the person they need to buy a whole new system with new hdd and ram…. That is theft..
It's actually baffling to me that people pay the shop even though the problem is not resolved. The perception of America here in the EU is that people love to sue each other over everything, but if it comes to car repair, people will happily pay exorbitant money without a fix.
@@tschuuuls486 You just described American consumerism greed and idiocy at its finest. Average new car price rose from 36k to 49k in just 4 years-- initially due to coming off Covid and supply chain shortages, but stayed because American consumers were still gladly willing to pay those exorbitant price hikes just to keep up with the Joneses. And everyone here in America has to have their ginormous pickup truck or SUV at outrageous prices even though they have absolutely no need for anything like that. Before this it took decades for the average price of a new vehicle to rise 30%; but our braindead consumerism idiot society allowed it to happen again in just 4 years. The 80s have NOTHING on the current capitalistic greed running rampant here.
@@sblagg527 Same in the EU, with the difference being that the German manufacturers oriented themselves to be premium brands that don't have to sell cheap small cars anymore (they used to do this here). Then VW built a uninspired Model 3/Y knockoff that is more expensive for less range and less performance. They sell basically the same base model car in China for ~18k€ and in Germany for ~40k€ and then wonder why it's not selling well here. Meanwhile they stop selling anything other than a Golf and Crossovers/SUVs.
I suspect overkill on the valves, they over tighten them. This will cause misfire counter to populate with no feel of misfire in cases, once the counter hit a threshold, code will manifest and injector deactivation to prevent cat damage. I got $5 on this being one of the problems
Yup. I had a B series honda that I did cams on. I didn't fully check the valves when I put them in and when it cranked it sounded like it had zero compression. Did the valve adjustment and it ran like a top.
Aut Start Stop and Cylinder Deactivation. Yes sir! Garbage! 100% Can't count how many GM V8'S I've either replaced Cylinder Heads and or Complete Engines due to their D.O.D. system.
I still don't know how most garages end up charging the customer for their own mistakes/incompetence. I go to them for a service. If the car is not fixed, they haven't offered me any service, so why should I pay them? If you go to a bar, order a beer and they give you vodka, do you have to pay them? This is the same...
This is a prime example of why shops will recommend an engine swap for anything like this rather than trying to make the repair. Sure, the timing belt snapped and it bent a valve….and sure, a head swap should take care of that….but will it be done properly? Was there any other damage caused? If the timing belt was ignored…what else was ignored? It can very quickly turn into other problems that will often result in “we’ll ever since you worked on it…”. $5k has been spent now. How much would it have been to simply swap in a known good used engine right from the get go?
@@larryberry2436 you are sooo correct . . . . you need these tests, then never go over the results. Next visit the following year, you are dying. Your testing from the previous year shows it clearly.
@@larryberry2436 Ughhh this is a subject my wife and I discuss. She's an MD. Medicine is one of the only professions they charge you for their mistakes. You have a surgery and it didn't go right so the same doc charges you a second time. The truth is there are so many other fees involved with surgery that have nothing to do with the doctors fee but in the end the patient still gets billed. My wife is well trained (Hopkins/Mayo) and referred to as a doctors doctor. She is like the Ivan of dermatology. Other docs consult her when they can't figure something out. She also has a lot of docs as patients. I think this is hilarious but she has a line for patients who ask her about problems outside of her field. "I'm an outside doctor you need and inside doctor". :)
The p3497 code will most likely be resolved with a new spool valve in the back. Pretty common issue on these. Even if it's just an oil pressure switch problem they still are prone to leaking at the case halves gasket and the only reliable repair is a new valve from Honda. There are aftermarket gaskets out there but they don't last more than a couple months in my experience. The cylinder 6 issue is definitely a separate issue. Hopefully, it's just a poor valve adjustment by the dealer. On these engiens exhaust valves usually tighten and intakes will loosen. A lot of people mistakenly misread the owner's manual (even techs) that say you don't need to do a valve adjustment unless the valves are noisy. The book says 105k but they are rarely out at that mileage. They should definitely be checked and adjusted by 150k.
Thanks Ivan. My AFM will be deactivated by Tuesday of next week, with a plug in Override. Until then i just leave the Shifter in Manual mode and AFM is Deactivated and High gear is inop. (No big Deal in town). 2018 24k mile K1500 LTZ 8 speed.
I have a 14 Silverado, Active Fuel Management system. 115k on the clock, no problems. I average 20 mpg in mixed driving in the mountains. Best mileage on a flat freeway road trip, 32 mpg. I’ve never seen the money light in the 10-years of ownership. I must be lucky.
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics He must have a 4.3 V6, considering that the Silverado has lower gearing than the Yukon/Tahoe/Suburban unless they are equipped with max tow package I believe. My 2019 Yukon with 5.3 and higher gears has never ever seen that mileage. His V6 will have only 2 cylinders cutting off versus 4 in the V8s, I suppose he has a 50% less chance of failure from these goofy EPA placation devices.
@@Guillotines_For_Globalists 5.3 v8. It was the first year for AFM. A couple of years later, GM changed the system and the problems began. Great handle by the way!
About six months ago, I did a VCM delete on a 2010 Pilot with 105 K. It was frequently fouling plug #1. I also installed a Dorman spool valve gasket set, as Honda only sells the gaskets with the spool valve. So far, the fouled plug issue hasn't returned, no CEL.
I bought a VCM disabler when the car had low miles in the hope of avoiding these issues. So far so good. Honda tried a very complicated fix for something that didn't need fixing and in the process created potentian expensive problems for the owner. Put one on a friends Accord as well as it had already started buring oil.
If possible, I’d disable the VCM system completely from being ran. Would probably require a reflash on the ecm, but would be well worth it, if it’s even possible. If not, than I’d trade this in as soon as you repaired this! lol great work as usual brother! God bless! Soli Deo Gloria~
@@brassmule yeah I figured at some extent it was possible. Even the Silverado 1500’s can be done, but it takes quite a bit of labor, parts, and programming. At least the Honda system seems, solely on your comment alone, to be disabled via programming only. That seems like the better of the two mentioned here, although they’re all bad and due to ridiculous epa regs. Even worse with diesel trucks and the DPF/DEF/SCR being the $10,000 monstrosity called the “exhaust system” and not to forget the EGR. All of these EPA “environmental requirements” actually do MORE harm than they do good for the environment, but what do I know, they’re “scientists” and I’m just an American with “USED TO BE COMMON sense”.
@@KendrasEdge757 The Honda VCM delete is even easier. No programming. You just install a bypass on the ECTS so it can never tell the ECU that the temperature is sufficient enough for VCM to engage. VCM Tuner uses a bypass plug and a small computer to maintain the change on the fly. Takes about 5 minutes to install on the engine bay, if that. I've been using mine for a couple years now. No more fouled plugs on bank 1.
Shout-out to New Hampshire. I purchased a 2016 V8 F150 instead of a new one because of Start/Stop and cylinder deactivation, and I hope to keep it for another ten-plus years. I hate the complications of new automobiles.
One of my best customers has a 2014 F-150 FX4 with the 5.0 Coyote engine that he bought new in 2014. When I just did valve cover gaskets the other day, it had 380,000 miles on it, and still running strong.
Another great diagnostic approach, Ivan! Seems this was one of the bad dealers (you got a good one recently, for a change). Parts cannon and incorrect work got their final diagnostic of a new engine, meaning they probably don't know what's wrong with the car, or just don't care. I fear their work on the engine could actually have caused more problem$. On to Part 2!
I am an antique mechanic, and still wrenching my old days in the shop. I remember that Honda were the ones we were always adjusting valves on. So that being said, I believe that’s where I would start rechecking the dealers valve adjustment
I read a thread on Reddit about a technician at a Korean dealership who wanted to sue his employer because if he replaced an engine under warranty he was paid six hours even though it took two days of labor while if it was not under warranty he was paid 16 hours. My thought was for him to put himself in a position where the warranty isn't a piece of the equation such as at an independent shop or working for himself.
For Honda to be such a reputable intelligent business they sure did invest and put out to the masses a stupid design to ruin their customer base and their reputation. Absolutely ridiculous in the name of saving a few peenies at the pump. Great work as always, eagerly awaiting part 2.
I just want to say a huge thank you from Texas. I’ve done most of my own non diagnostic or special shop tool work. I first watched your video about the parasitic drain on the Toyota Avalon, dealing with the same on my ex mother in law’s car. My son had moved to live with his mother at 16 . He’s 18 now, has a 2000 Accord V6 I gave him and he’s both working in appliance repair and also letting me teach him auto repair. You’ve inspired me to go out of my comfort zone and do more, my son will be a good wrench in a little time. What diagnostic tool( s) would you recommend for us just wanting to do our own automotive repair? Thank you again
What I find funny about Auto Start/Stop is that they put this crap on cars with a turbo. Then at the same time, they tell people to let the engine run for at least 20 seconds after parking, to let the turbo cool down a bit so that it does not burn the oil in turbo oil supply pipes. What good is that if the damn car turns itself off whenever you stop? I hate that crap, I find it annoying and the first thing that I do on a car when I buy one is to disconnect the damn battery monitoring module to disable it. Especially on a car with a turbo.
Ivan. I just bought a 2024 Frontier and the 1st thing I did was install a module that prevents the auto start stop from activating. A guy on the Frontier Fourm keep his active for 10,000 miles. The computer said it save about 40oz of gas during that time. 1/3 a gallon or $1 savings for all that wear and tear on the battery, starter, engine, ect
If the valve clearances are just a hair too tight it may only cause misfire when running extra hot, as the owner initially described. There maybe no obvious compression issue when cold or normal operating temperature.
The test Ivan did with the air compressor (leakdown) is more accurate than a compression test. Compression is usually the goto because it's faster and therefore cheaper for the customer.
That variable cylinder management system is a nightmare. Sure, it helps increase fuel milage. But in doing so, does take a harsh toll on the engine over time. I know that there are ways to bypass or eliminate that feature. Scotty Kilmer talks about it every now and then. I remember when I lashed the valves on my 07 pilot for the first time, something didn't go right. That's pre VCM thank you. You could hear a noticeable lifter tap and feel a random misfire when at idle. I then got a new set of long reach angled feeler gauges because I only had a short straight set when I did it at that time. Some of the valves are very difficult to reach with a straight feeler gauge. And simply bending a straight gauge is not good enough. I am willing to bet that someone goofed the valve adjustment on this accord.
You Got this💪 I know You'll find the actual Problem-Problem's and repair them it's just a machine every part of it has to be Right, Obviously the last few Guy's and the first owners made a Huge mess out of it.
My sister had the same issues with that engine, me and my father diagnosed it as the pressure sensor was bad. The oil solenoids were stuck open, and we also performed an engine oil flush due to lack of oil changes as well.
Just enough hills steep hills to kill every valve stop system and easily kill many transmissions the state of NH. Has the most standard transmissions of any state because of the steep hills over a mile tall Mt. Washington Highest winds ever rechorded on earth ! They spend a fortune on salt here too ! Rust repair as well , tell him to oil the bottom every year !
West Virginia area is absolutely a blast to drive or ride through if you like steep hills. But you can't beat the beauty of the white mountain area. Edit: I also love the kancamaugus hwy, it's a beautiful road. But it has gotten SUPER busy in the summer. Used to go there a few times a year as a kid to camp. Haven't been in a few years.
Cylinder deactivation was designed to increase fuel efficiency so that manufacturers could meet epa mandates. It does when it works but when it doesn’t you havnt saved anything.
All the manufacturers that give you misfire counters deserve massive praise. It's so endlessly frustrating to have go through other means of monitoring misfires when diagnosing. Specially when the pcm sees them but won't give you live data of them.
@major__kong Yeah. Ford does Power Balance. Other manufacturers use different methods. Honda gives you cylinder contribution. Etc. But nothing beats a live misfire counter. Obviously there can be cases when the pcm is mistaking which cylinder is misfiring due to other factors. But live misfires reduce overall diag time significantly.
@sblagg527 It changes from year to year. But the most common one is Nissan. Toyota sometimes doesn't. Ford sometimes doesn't. They have the Power Balance but that isn't a true misfire counter. And can be deceiving. A lot of Euros don't have misfire counters. Depending on the year.
The oem spool valve come with whole housing and need to remove rocker assembly. Replacement gasket are to thick and cause the spool valve to get stuck in unlock position.
Remember my neighbor many years ago had a Cadillac with the 4-6-8 cylinder V8. It never worked right and he had the system shut off so it ran on all 8 cylinders all the time. It ran fine then, he worked for Cadillac in Detroit. I have a couple friends with the start-stop function on ford trucks. They disable it every time they start truck.
Before the video even started. I owned that car with the same 3.5L V6. Check the back 3 cylinders (bank 2) and they will be caked with carbon on the spark plugs. Replace bank 2 spark plugs and the misfire goes away. The VCM on those engines works on 4 & 3 cylinder modes. The port injection is disabled during VCM operation however the PCV & EGR will continue to push carbon into the cylinder. It will cake the plugs. You can replace the plugs more frequently or there was a VCM software upgrade Honda offered that would reduce how often it activates. I had a misfire on that engine since brand new. The dealer couldn't figure it out. I found it eventually.
Check the valves with borescope while the valves are open as well. Might see cylinder wall, valve stem, seat or face damage. 100% agree, the cylinder deactivation is to be avoided. Stay gold.
The tip of the valves on these bend when that spool valve assembly is removed if it’s not set at Tdc with all the valves loosened. Only fix without valve replacement is to set the valves looser then spec. Seen it many times when these spool valves would be replaced for leaking oil.
I have a 2022 Sentra SR. Love the car, TBH. It slowly started developing a driveline clank going from R to D or D to R with a tiny load on the engine. I took it to the dealer... 1st time: "It's normal, 4 other cars we checked on the lot do the same thing." 2nd time: "yeah, that's not normal. There's a TSB for 1 year older for the same problem. They said they would fix it. After they "fixed" it with no noticeable difference to the noise I took it to an independent shop. This fella told me the axel needed replaced and helped me in the fight with the dealer. This is after concluding that not one thing was even removed at the dealer. Still covered in road dirt and grime. Liars.... Finally, after arguing with the dealer for a week or two, because the car is still under warranty, I finally got the axel replaced and the clicking stopped... On the third trip to the dealer. I would never take my car to the dealer if it wasn't a warranty thing. Also, and interesting note is the dealer charged over $800 for the same repair the independent guy quoted me $350 for. And the shop told me if the problem wasn't fixed, he would take his axel back and not charge me! Dealership repairs scare me, honestly they do. You can taste the incompetence just walking in the doors
Seems like the oil pressure was on the high side. We used to see that at the garage i worked at. Chunks of rtv would restrict movement of the oil pump relief valve leading to excessive oil pressure which led to unwanted vtec/vcm operation. That would explain both issues
Kinda makes me wonder why Honda and Toyota used rubber timing belts as long as they did on an interference engine. When that belt breaks, its all over. GREAT VIDEO!
The chains stretch over time. They say they should last the life of the engine but they just don’t. So since it needs to be replaced it may as well be a maintenance item and be disposable
This is a cost analysis issue. A belt will last until warranty period is over and then is a service profit, chains are more costly and generally do not wear if oil changes are consistent.
I got a 2013 chevy sonic for free from my aunt, whenever that dies I'm scared what the car market will look like. These new features like stop/start and stuff are ridiculous. Make me want to get an older used vehicle, older than I would have otherwise. I did manage to botch a DIY motor mount replacement, and my vibration at idle issue became a vibrate while accelerating and breaking. Yay. I know what caused it but not sure it's fixable (at least for a price that's worth it). Need to get it looked at and explain what happened to see if there's a fix for it.
You would think by now a Honda drivability tech would know an intermittent cylinder 3 or cylinder 4 misfire was a problem in the VCM system. But they probably chased off the ones that did in favor of one they could hire for $10 less an hour. Smh
I've also seen the tiny return springs break on those rocker arms that enable the intakes which makes the intake valves never open and the intake port gets full of gasoline...no codes but misfires cuz the switches worked fine. A little $5 part and the dealer's recommendation was also to replace the engine. lol.
When you had the scope in the cylinder , I saw a wet piston or so it looked wet and if so might it be a bad gasket?? My apologies if wrong but that piston looks wet..
Actually Honda VCM was here in ‘05 .. was not having a problem pre se, but just didn’t like it. I installed a VCMTUNER II. Fixed! It works by intercepting the engine temp, sending the temp reading a few degrees less than full operating temp, so the PCM will not activate VCM, since it thinks full operating temp is never reached.
though it doesn't apply to accord, the vcm system on the odyssey has some very problematic years such that they issued TSB 13-081. related to piston rings
These vcm engines eat cams too on the Odyssey. The absolute worse j seies my 09 wiped the front cam and rear rings were shot at 200k. VCM muzzel helps! I would recommend that for the customer.
Bought a 13' Odyssey with 168,000 miles for a steal compared to what these things go for. The VCM was throwing misfire codes, it drove my wife nuts when it turned on/off from the bucking. Installed a VCM Tuner 2 on it and it's been happy for 10,000 miles. VCM is junk.
i dont get it from a troubleshooting point of view, If the misfire is cyl 6 and the vps system does not appear to control cyl 6 why are we worried about the vps system? please splain it to me :)
I definitely agree with you on that Ivan the stupid stop star battery is so bloody expensive I see now why people hate it I also cannot stand smart alternators who stop charging once the battery gets to 80%, it's so frustrating and cylinder deactivation is garbage as well but seems to work well on Volkswagens which is good I see why Toyota don't have stuff like that.
I would suspect a sealing problem with the #6 intake valves, possibly related to the deactivation system or an intake not seating with the engine running. If pressure from #6 is leaking back into the intake manifold when #4 is on the intake stroke it could dilute the mixture to #4 and cause an intermittent misfire. Maybe a vacuum transducer in the intake could help verify the problem.
Cylinders 5 & 6 are not controlled by vcm system, the dealer valve adjustment most likely cause of minor compression issue especially once engine gets hot and the clearances tighten and exacerbate the problem.
Aaahhhhh Honda-- love the way they drive, but overcomplicated cylinder deactivation system (that causes blowby and piston ring issues) combined with archaic engine design (V6s that STILL use timing belts and solid lifters!!) Only other car I know of that required valve adjustments over the last couple of decades is my 69 VW bug!
These and Ford's often have those kinds of symptoms when their version of a cam/crank relearn need performed. CKP Pattern Clear/Learn Procedure for Honda and Neutral Profile Correction for Ford. At least they seem worse than other manufacturers when needing that done. Chrysler seems bad about setting misfire codes along with fishbite idles when their cam/crank relearn needs done.
I have an 08 accord v6 with 6 speed manual. Mine has the J35Z3 which doesn’t have this cylinder deactivation system. I’m so thankful, as you said these systems are junk regardless of who makes them
It would be interesting to know what the oil consumption of this engine has been over it's lifespan. A borescope of the entire cylinder as well as the other 5 is the next step that I would take. Dead cylinders will only make the causes of oil consumption worse. In my mind the engine has to be worth fixing. 30,000 miles of slight to complete cylinder misfires isn't something to ignore.
It's funny that when a car is under warranty they will do anything not to replace the motor, but it's the opposite when the car is not covered.
All about money
It's all about taking as much money from you as possible after the warranty expires....under warranty, it's their dollar. It's called classic American greed. Don't you like the monster that everyone helped create??
that is what happens when you have a dealership that has to foot the bill, hoping that the manufacturer foots the bill.
warranty job pay less money. my friend working in dealer told me.
Under warranty the manufacturer demands explanation with zero exceptions. They'll pay their tech 3 hours to tear the engine down to pinpoint a problem, also want the parts for examination, which better be right or the claim gets denied and the dealer eats the repair.
Out of warranty it's Kind of like how a Doctor is with patients. No one can reliable second guess you.
I had a 2010 Accord V6. Put a resistor inline (bought online) on coolant temp sensor that told ECU that had not quite reached the coolant temp for vcm to kick in. Worked great and cleaned up especially cyl 6 as I bore scoped them all for interest.
I like your thinking. Great hack.
Did you get a p0128 ?
@@rodvan-zeller6360 I use VCM Tuner II on my 2011 Odyssey to disable VCM. It works the same way, just intercepts the coolant temp signal to prevent engine from thinking it can use VCM. No codes. System will disable itself if the engine temp reaches too high, also.
If one of those three cylinder deactivation valves is not holding pressure you will drive your car with low oil pressure in the cylinder head unknowingly. I'd say if you are skilled enough to bypass the system yourself, you are probably skilled enough to keep it going for a reasonable cost ;)
@@brassmule This is exactly what I installed on my sister's 2011 Odyssey as well. Another 100k so far with no issues.
"Cylinder deactivation, auto stop/start" the absolute worst inventions on modern cars, I would add "Low oil pressure mode" designed to save .001% fuel economy at the cost of longevity of the engine wear metals. EPA is the reason for any and all environmental concerns, not the fix.
Yeah the new variable pressure oil pumps are wild.
Nothing wrong with a pressure bypass spring, but we have to complicate this for .01 mpg
Wow…… didn’t know that was a thing.
You forgot any and all EGR systems
I wonder why the dealer quoted him engine replacement only. To make sure they are getting rid of the customer they usually quote engine AND full wiring harness replacement.
"Needs a new engine" is also code for "Please buy a new or used car from us" ?
The first "de-actor" was a "Caddy money pit" model if memory serves.
@@Runco990 Runco, the only 4-6-8’s that were not modified were the ones in the scrapyard.
I'm still amazed they can sell you a wire harness, but can't sell you the modules that plug into it.
Ivan, I say that Afghanistan mechanic is pretty smart. First he's living in Arizona and second he was able to fix that car to drive for 30,000 miles! I'd say he's off the hook. Then the Honda dealership, well.... Now it's your turn. I'm excitedly looking forward to how you handle this car. I found your Part ! explanation outstanding as usual. Looking forward to Part II. Thanks for Sharing! 🙃🙂
Honda dealer: "It's our mistake, but it's your problem."
VW S model Jetta here. 6 speed manual. No stop/start. No cylinder deactivation. No lane assist crap. Emergency braking only.
150 HP/ 180lb ft torque. Total fun to drive. Gets better than EPA estimated mileage, as most VWs do.
$17,000 brand new in 2019 with 7 yr/70,000 mile warranty. One stupid purge valve replaced very early in it's life and nothing but oil changes.
Honda has lost it's way from what it once was.
EPA forces it on manufacturers. If the EPA vanished, quality and longevity will improve.
Oh that delight. Honda actually rebuilt the engine in my boss's 09 because of oil consumption based persistent misfires at about 90k. Drove it another 100-120k on the rebuild before the oil consumption started up again. Traded it for a new Accord with a little turbo 4 and a CVT, we'll see how it holds up long term - so far 75k on that one and no issues. Adding that system ruined one of the greatest engines Japan ever made IMO.
CVT is destined to fail at 100k. As far as the oil consumption goes did Honda revise the piston rings as well as oil change interval schedule? Toyota did both with their oil consumption fiasco and if proper maintenance and intervals were adhered to the oil consumption didn't return on repaired engines. I believe Toyota only added the slightest amount of ring tension.
I just bought a 14 Chevy Cruze Lt for 500. The previous owner bought it in March at crivelli GMC. It had 63k at the time and now has 69k. They were driving down the road and it over heated and engine made noise. They had it towed to crivelli and they told them lower end noise and metal in oil. I went and looked at it and started up the belt was not turning. New harmonic balancer and bolt fixed it. I have the oil filter and I can't see metal on oil. I'm sure that they sold them new car.
Wow. Is that Crivelli in Pennsylvania ? Had a Crivelli Chevrolet dealer in Reno,Pa in the 1980s if I recall.
@@davidr8750 Yes. That is the one. I have fixed a vehicle from every new car dealer around here besides the Toyota dealer.
@@eddiereichel9354. Grew up in Oil City. Been in Texas since 1990 so wasnt sure Crivellis still existed.
@@davidr8750 My shop is going towards Rouseville. Right at Oil Creek on Route 8. BMI used to be in the building Im in.
@@eddiereichel9354 Cool. What is the name of your shop ? Have a few contacts left in that area. If they need a shop I will suggest yours. Thanks
Shoutout to the Afghan mechanic lol 🇦🇫 I hate VCM, did a VCM delete for a customer in my Honda Pilot video, it's literally causing the transmission to fail, it doesn't just stress the engine, think about how much roughness goes through the clutch packs when the engine is constantly enabling and disabling cylinders, also destroys engine mounts, it's ridiculous. Looking forward to what you find, interesting one for sure.
Yes, it does destroy the engine mounts.
You nailed it Ivan.....cyl deact and start stop is pure GARBAGE....along with a load of other CONVENIENCE Features on cars and pickups these days.....friggin computers on wheels....and its gonna get WORSE
It already has with lane assist ,scary as hell when your vehicle decides where it wants to go instead of you steering it. The problem is that you have to turn it off every time you start the car.
Doctors lawyers electricians pilots etc. have to be trained certified or schooled, a mechanic doesn’t. They can walk into a shop open his or her tool box and start trying to fix cars with no training or schooling or certificate needed. I fixed cars for 30+ years was ASE certified most of those which is voluntary. Lots of people out there trying to fix your car and learn at your expense. If there’s a code that’s the part it gets. So as cars get more and more complicated it will happen more and more but there’s still the basics that must be checked.
I know, Eric O had an issue with a customers Chevy truck which was fitted with the 5.3 litre Chevrolet V8 which was fitted with the DOD or AFM cylinder deactivation setup.
He just replaced the cylinder number 1 spark plug once a year because it gets oil fouled because the rings & piston got varnished when the cylinder was deactivated & not firing.
The fix was to replace the piston rings but they couldn't be bothered doing that because the truck only had a few years to go until it was ready for the crusher because it was full of rust due to being located within the Salt belt at Avoca, New York.
In Australia Holden fitted the Chevrolet L76 & L77 (flex fuel).V8 engines into the VE Commodore in 2009, so when Holden first bolted the Chevrolet L76 V8 engine into the series 2 VZ Commodore in 2006, Holden had ordered that engine with the AFM delete done from Chevrolet, that engine was fitted from 2006 in the VZ series 2 Commodore & series 1 VE Commodore in 2006 up until the VE model in 2009.
I could run the 3 bolt type of camshaft in the L76 V8 engine & LS7 hydraulic lifters as well as a matching trigger wheel for the camshaft position sensor,fit the standard non AFM oil pump then there's a Valve which needs to be blocked off in the oil pan which is used for the AFM oiling system I think !
My bet is, they didn't adjust the valves properly and the clearances grow as it gets hotter, making 6 come back in. Should probably leakdown them all and readjust them all to rule out bad work. Then clear codes and re-test. Also, make sure those NGK's aren't fakes, that'll run you in circles.
That solenoid body may have gobs of silicone blocking ports as well, may want to redo that as well.
I think Honda recommends a cold engine for valve adjustment. If tech wasn't patient, valves were adjusted with a warm engine.
The clearances decrease as the parts get hotter, otherwise you would not need clearance to begin with. 😂😂😂
I'd go after the mechanical issue on cylinder #6 first. That will let you focus on the electrical/electronic of cylinder #4 without worry of 6 contributing to the engine's known problem. But a terrific diagnosis.
That VCM system is a whole mess of ugly!!!!
Since things got worse after the dealer did the valve clearances you do have to wonder if the dealer messed it up.
Also, if the owner ignored the timing belt change interval was the oil change interval also ignored? If so there could be some muck in one of the oil passages.
Looks to be rather a lot of RTV used during previous repair, could there be some RTV somewhere it shouldn't be?
Great work as always Ivan.
Cheers. Ben
Agree, those were my guesses too. Dealer probably made cyl 6 clearences too tight, so a valve isn't closing all the way. The VCM issue might be sludge or RTV blocking an oil screen or passage, mechanical damage in the plungers, or maybe blown out RTV. Most people put on RTV way too thick, you don't need a bead of it, just a thin layer you smear on with a finger. When people put big beads of it on I cringe, you're not caulking a window!
I remember working at the dealership and having the sales manager come yell at me for repairing someone's car, saying I should send them to the sales department and not do major repairs. I thought he was kidding the first couple of times, then soon realized he was completely serious. I left that dealership after realizing the bigger a crook you were the more they liked and even celebrated you.
Man I remember a really old Eric O video about a Honda V6 in a Ridgeline that also had mystery misfires, dealer told owner it needed an engine, but it turned out to be a bent valve?? Eerily similar.
Another cliff hanger! Does Ivan have to go RAMBO on this Honda? Stay tuned.
Holy crap, Honda too! I’m probably missing something on the operation description, but if the valves are deactivated, would there still not be constant compression and vacuum resistance? Anyway, one more vehicle to add to the “stay away from” list. 👍👍🇺🇸
Yep, the VCM Honda's are not amazing. Good if you can get the mod that disables it. The manual accords don't have the VCM and make a touch extra powet too. Go for an accord coupe 6-6, but there's definitely better and lighter cars among them
It acts like a spring with the valves deactivated.
Cylinder deactivation has always been a failure. It was tried in the 60s and 70s. In 2020s, it is still a failure.
V8-6-4-0 I remember those.
didn't even work on boeing's space capsule as they found out trying to steer it.
They didn’t do this for no reason..
They had to do this; Thanks to the government! All their stupid ass EPA regulations!
Hey Ivan, check the egr lift pid. I have had on a few occasions that the egr gets stuck open slightly, it sits right beside #6 and will dilute the intake mixture causing a misfire. I have also had the valve pause piston in the rocker arms hang up and cause a stumble at tip in throttle and setting codes for valve pause stuck. I had to change the rocker arms in #2 to repair.
These dealerships act like our Government. Do nothing and make you pay . Shameful.
I don't understand how shops, especially dealerships get away with this crap. I own a small HVAC business, if I diagnose a problem and I'm wrong I don't charge the customer. Not one damn cent.
Has anyone ever tried to sue a shop for charging for a failed diagnosis?
Imagine somebody brings a pc into a repair shop because it was running slow. So the repair shop tells them to replace the hdd and ram as well as add fans and a water cooling system. Charges the person 1000$ for it all and the pc is still running slow. So they tell the person they need to buy a whole new system with new hdd and ram…. That is theft..
It's actually baffling to me that people pay the shop even though the problem is not resolved. The perception of America here in the EU is that people love to sue each other over everything, but if it comes to car repair, people will happily pay exorbitant money without a fix.
@@tschuuuls486 You just described American consumerism greed and idiocy at its finest. Average new car price rose from 36k to 49k in just 4 years-- initially due to coming off Covid and supply chain shortages, but stayed because American consumers were still gladly willing to pay those exorbitant price hikes just to keep up with the Joneses. And everyone here in America has to have their ginormous pickup truck or SUV at outrageous prices even though they have absolutely no need for anything like that. Before this it took decades for the average price of a new vehicle to rise 30%; but our braindead consumerism idiot society allowed it to happen again in just 4 years. The 80s have NOTHING on the current capitalistic greed running rampant here.
@@sblagg527 Same in the EU, with the difference being that the German manufacturers oriented themselves to be premium brands that don't have to sell cheap small cars anymore (they used to do this here). Then VW built a uninspired Model 3/Y knockoff that is more expensive for less range and less performance. They sell basically the same base model car in China for ~18k€ and in Germany for ~40k€ and then wonder why it's not selling well here. Meanwhile they stop selling anything other than a Golf and Crossovers/SUVs.
@@sblagg527have you seen how many repos there are nowadays? The Banks are loaded with crap vehicles that are losing value by the day.
I suspect overkill on the valves, they over tighten them. This will cause misfire counter to populate with no feel of misfire in cases, once the counter hit a threshold, code will manifest and injector deactivation to prevent cat damage. I got $5 on this being one of the problems
Yup. I had a B series honda that I did cams on. I didn't fully check the valves when I put them in and when it cranked it sounded like it had zero compression. Did the valve adjustment and it ran like a top.
Aut Start Stop and Cylinder Deactivation. Yes sir! Garbage! 100% Can't count how many GM V8'S I've either replaced Cylinder Heads and or Complete Engines due to their D.O.D. system.
I still don't know how most garages end up charging the customer for their own mistakes/incompetence. I go to them for a service. If the car is not fixed, they haven't offered me any service, so why should I pay them? If you go to a bar, order a beer and they give you vodka, do you have to pay them? This is the same...
They got the idea from the medical “professionals “.😊
This is a prime example of why shops will recommend an engine swap for anything like this rather than trying to make the repair. Sure, the timing belt snapped and it bent a valve….and sure, a head swap should take care of that….but will it be done properly? Was there any other damage caused? If the timing belt was ignored…what else was ignored? It can very quickly turn into other problems that will often result in “we’ll ever since you worked on it…”.
$5k has been spent now. How much would it have been to simply swap in a known good used engine right from the get go?
@@larryberry2436 you are sooo correct . . . . you need these tests, then never go over the results. Next visit the following year, you are dying. Your testing from the previous year shows it clearly.
Thing other way if someone go to hospital but the doctor try the best but still can’t make it. I thing hospital I still charge .
@@larryberry2436 Ughhh this is a subject my wife and I discuss. She's an MD. Medicine is one of the only professions they charge you for their mistakes. You have a surgery and it didn't go right so the same doc charges you a second time. The truth is there are so many other fees involved with surgery that have nothing to do with the doctors fee but in the end the patient still gets billed. My wife is well trained (Hopkins/Mayo) and referred to as a doctors doctor. She is like the Ivan of dermatology. Other docs consult her when they can't figure something out. She also has a lot of docs as patients. I think this is hilarious but she has a line for patients who ask her about problems outside of her field. "I'm an outside doctor you need and inside doctor". :)
The p3497 code will most likely be resolved with a new spool valve in the back. Pretty common issue on these. Even if it's just an oil pressure switch problem they still are prone to leaking at the case halves gasket and the only reliable repair is a new valve from Honda. There are aftermarket gaskets out there but they don't last more than a couple months in my experience. The cylinder 6 issue is definitely a separate issue. Hopefully, it's just a poor valve adjustment by the dealer. On these engiens exhaust valves usually tighten and intakes will loosen. A lot of people mistakenly misread the owner's manual (even techs) that say you don't need to do a valve adjustment unless the valves are noisy. The book says 105k but they are rarely out at that mileage. They should definitely be checked and adjusted by 150k.
Thanks Ivan. My AFM will be deactivated by Tuesday of next week, with a plug in Override. Until then i just leave the Shifter in Manual mode and AFM is Deactivated and High gear is inop. (No big Deal in town). 2018 24k mile K1500 LTZ 8 speed.
I have a 14 Silverado, Active Fuel Management system. 115k on the clock, no problems. I average 20 mpg in mixed driving in the mountains. Best mileage on a flat freeway road trip, 32 mpg. I’ve never seen the money light in the 10-years of ownership. I must be lucky.
4.3 V6?
Report back at 230k miles :)
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics He must have a 4.3 V6, considering that the Silverado has lower gearing than the Yukon/Tahoe/Suburban unless they are equipped with max tow package I believe. My 2019 Yukon with 5.3 and higher gears has never ever seen that mileage. His V6 will have only 2 cylinders cutting off versus 4 in the V8s, I suppose he has a 50% less chance of failure from these goofy EPA placation devices.
@@Guillotines_For_Globalists 5.3 v8. It was the first year for AFM. A couple of years later, GM changed the system and the problems began. Great handle by the way!
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics By that time it will be someone else’s problem 😁
About six months ago, I did a VCM delete on a 2010 Pilot with 105 K. It was frequently fouling plug #1. I also installed a Dorman spool valve gasket set, as Honda only sells the gaskets with the spool valve. So far, the fouled plug issue hasn't returned, no CEL.
In Australia the rule is, Avoid dealerships for all repairs that are not warranty related.
I bought a VCM disabler when the car had low miles in the hope of avoiding these issues. So far so good. Honda tried a very complicated fix for something that didn't need fixing and in the process created potentian expensive problems for the owner. Put one on a friends Accord as well as it had already started buring oil.
If possible, I’d disable the VCM system completely from being ran. Would probably require a reflash on the ecm, but would be well worth it, if it’s even possible. If not, than I’d trade this in as soon as you repaired this! lol great work as usual brother!
God bless!
Soli Deo Gloria~
There are multiple plug and play systems to disable VCM. I use VCM Tuner personally, but there's one or two more.
@@brassmule yeah I figured at some extent it was possible. Even the Silverado 1500’s can be done, but it takes quite a bit of labor, parts, and programming. At least the Honda system seems, solely on your comment alone, to be disabled via programming only. That seems like the better of the two mentioned here, although they’re all bad and due to ridiculous epa regs. Even worse with diesel trucks and the DPF/DEF/SCR being the $10,000 monstrosity called the “exhaust system” and not to forget the EGR. All of these EPA “environmental requirements” actually do MORE harm than they do good for the environment, but what do I know, they’re “scientists” and I’m just an American with “USED TO BE COMMON sense”.
@@KendrasEdge757 The Honda VCM delete is even easier. No programming. You just install a bypass on the ECTS so it can never tell the ECU that the temperature is sufficient enough for VCM to engage. VCM Tuner uses a bypass plug and a small computer to maintain the change on the fly. Takes about 5 minutes to install on the engine bay, if that. I've been using mine for a couple years now. No more fouled plugs on bank 1.
@@brassmule oh nice even better
Shout-out to New Hampshire. I purchased a 2016 V8 F150 instead of a new one because of Start/Stop and cylinder deactivation, and I hope to keep it for another ten-plus years. I hate the complications of new automobiles.
One of my best customers has a 2014 F-150 FX4 with the 5.0 Coyote engine that he bought new in 2014. When I just did valve cover gaskets the other day, it had 380,000 miles on it, and still running strong.
Hello from NH. Did you know 49 states require adults to wear seat belts?
My 2016 f150 has been very good, 3.5 naturally aspirated, flex fuel.
@@matthewjuhlin4628 Did you know that 1 state allows it's citizens to think for themselves.
Another great diagnostic approach, Ivan! Seems this was one of the bad dealers (you got a good one recently, for a change). Parts cannon and incorrect work got their final diagnostic of a new engine, meaning they probably don't know what's wrong with the car, or just don't care. I fear their work on the engine could actually have caused more problem$. On to Part 2!
I am an antique mechanic, and still wrenching my old days in the shop. I remember that Honda were the ones we were always adjusting valves on. So that being said, I believe that’s where I would start rechecking the dealers valve adjustment
I read a thread on Reddit about a technician at a Korean dealership who wanted to sue his employer because if he replaced an engine under warranty he was paid six hours even though it took two days of labor while if it was not under warranty he was paid 16 hours. My thought was for him to put himself in a position where the warranty isn't a piece of the equation such as at an independent shop or working for himself.
For Honda to be such a reputable intelligent business they sure did invest and put out to the masses a stupid design to ruin their customer base and their reputation. Absolutely ridiculous in the name of saving a few peenies at the pump. Great work as always, eagerly awaiting part 2.
Hello Ivan, lol I remember back in the seventies Cadillac came out with I believe Fleetwood with cylinder deactivation garbage did not last long😅😅😅
I just want to say a huge thank you from Texas. I’ve done most of my own non diagnostic or special shop tool work. I first watched your video about the parasitic drain on the Toyota Avalon, dealing with the same on my ex mother in law’s car. My son had moved to live with his mother at 16 . He’s 18 now, has a 2000 Accord V6 I gave him and he’s both working in appliance repair and also letting me teach him auto repair. You’ve inspired me to go out of my comfort zone and do more, my son will be a good wrench in a little time.
What diagnostic tool( s) would you recommend for us just wanting to do our own automotive repair? Thank you again
What I find funny about Auto Start/Stop is that they put this crap on cars with a turbo. Then at the same time, they tell people to let the engine run for at least 20 seconds after parking, to let the turbo cool down a bit so that it does not burn the oil in turbo oil supply pipes. What good is that if the damn car turns itself off whenever you stop? I hate that crap, I find it annoying and the first thing that I do on a car when I buy one is to disconnect the damn battery monitoring module to disable it. Especially on a car with a turbo.
I second your Motion concerning Cylinder De-activation--Garbage Engineering...
Looks like the stealership strikes again. I see you invested into an A/C machine. I saw it lurking in the background. 😂
Ivan.
I just bought a 2024 Frontier and the 1st thing I did was install a module that prevents the auto start stop from activating.
A guy on the Frontier Fourm keep his active for 10,000 miles. The computer said it save about 40oz of gas during that time. 1/3 a gallon or $1 savings for all that wear and tear on the battery, starter, engine, ect
My first step would have been a compression test.
If the valve clearances are just a hair too tight it may only cause misfire when running extra hot, as the owner initially described. There maybe no obvious compression issue when cold or normal operating temperature.
There's always one in the crowd.
My 1st step would be. I would do this. Bla bla bla. Good for you. And how is your channel doing? Ohh yeah you have 1 subscriber!
Hahhahahahah
The test Ivan did with the air compressor (leakdown) is more accurate than a compression test. Compression is usually the goto because it's faster and therefore cheaper for the customer.
That variable cylinder management system is a nightmare. Sure, it helps increase fuel milage. But in doing so, does take a harsh toll on the engine over time. I know that there are ways to bypass or eliminate that feature. Scotty Kilmer talks about it every now and then.
I remember when I lashed the valves on my 07 pilot for the first time, something didn't go right. That's pre VCM thank you. You could hear a noticeable lifter tap and feel a random misfire when at idle. I then got a new set of long reach angled feeler gauges because I only had a short straight set when I did it at that time. Some of the valves are very difficult to reach with a straight feeler gauge. And simply bending a straight gauge is not good enough. I am willing to bet that someone goofed the valve adjustment on this accord.
You Got this💪 I know You'll find the actual Problem-Problem's and repair them it's just a machine every part of it has to be Right, Obviously the last few Guy's and the first owners made a Huge mess out of it.
I always pull the oil cap to see if you have excessive leaking through the crank case. I doubt you will, but I have seen it.
My sister had the same issues with that engine, me and my father diagnosed it as the pressure sensor was bad. The oil solenoids were stuck open, and we also performed an engine oil flush due to lack of oil changes as well.
Just enough hills steep hills to kill every valve stop system and easily kill many transmissions the state of NH. Has the most standard transmissions of any state because of the steep hills over a mile tall Mt. Washington Highest winds ever rechorded on earth ! They spend a fortune on salt here too ! Rust repair as well , tell him to oil the bottom every year !
West Virginia area is absolutely a blast to drive or ride through if you like steep hills.
But you can't beat the beauty of the white mountain area.
Edit: I also love the kancamaugus hwy, it's a beautiful road. But it has gotten SUPER busy in the summer.
Used to go there a few times a year as a kid to camp. Haven't been in a few years.
Eric on SMA just had one of these where a shop tried to sell the customer an engine and it was just a problem with the VCM
A couple years ago I saw an actual running functional Cadillac 4-6-8 motor from the early 80s. This video reminded me of that.
Cylinder deactivation was designed to increase fuel efficiency so that manufacturers could meet epa mandates. It does when it works but when it doesn’t you havnt saved anything.
All the manufacturers that give you misfire counters deserve massive praise. It's so endlessly frustrating to have go through other means of monitoring misfires when diagnosing. Specially when the pcm sees them but won't give you live data of them.
Ford gives you power balance, too. You can see if one cylinder isn't like the rest for any reason.
@major__kong Yeah. Ford does Power Balance. Other manufacturers use different methods. Honda gives you cylinder contribution. Etc. But nothing beats a live misfire counter. Obviously there can be cases when the pcm is mistaking which cylinder is misfiring due to other factors. But live misfires reduce overall diag time significantly.
Which manufacturers don't give misfire counters?
@sblagg527 It changes from year to year. But the most common one is Nissan. Toyota sometimes doesn't. Ford sometimes doesn't. They have the Power Balance but that isn't a true misfire counter. And can be deceiving. A lot of Euros don't have misfire counters. Depending on the year.
They all do if you use global mode 6 data. Its an obd2 requirement.
The oem spool valve come with whole housing and need to remove rocker assembly. Replacement gasket are to thick and cause the spool valve to get stuck in unlock position.
Remember my neighbor many years ago had a Cadillac with the 4-6-8 cylinder V8. It never worked right and he had the system shut off so it ran on all 8 cylinders all the time. It ran fine then, he worked for Cadillac in Detroit. I have a couple friends with the start-stop function on ford trucks. They disable it every time they start truck.
Before the video even started. I owned that car with the same 3.5L V6. Check the back 3 cylinders (bank 2) and they will be caked with carbon on the spark plugs. Replace bank 2 spark plugs and the misfire goes away. The VCM on those engines works on 4 & 3 cylinder modes. The port injection is disabled during VCM operation however the PCV & EGR will continue to push carbon into the cylinder. It will cake the plugs. You can replace the plugs more frequently or there was a VCM software upgrade Honda offered that would reduce how often it activates. I had a misfire on that engine since brand new. The dealer couldn't figure it out. I found it eventually.
Honda's J-series engines' rear bank is bank 1, front - bank 2.
Check the valves with borescope while the valves are open as well. Might see cylinder wall, valve stem, seat or face damage.
100% agree, the cylinder deactivation is to be avoided.
Stay gold.
Once I seen that rtv I was wondering if the tech put too much sealant and it broke off and is somehow blocking the oil flow.
The tip of the valves on these bend when that spool valve assembly is removed if it’s not set at Tdc with all the valves loosened. Only fix without valve replacement is to set the valves looser then spec. Seen it many times when these spool valves would be replaced for leaking oil.
Hey if there was some easy way to add smoke to the compressed air. Then you could see the leak down as well.
I have a 2022 Sentra SR. Love the car, TBH. It slowly started developing a driveline clank going from R to D or D to R with a tiny load on the engine. I took it to the dealer...
1st time: "It's normal, 4 other cars we checked on the lot do the same thing."
2nd time: "yeah, that's not normal. There's a TSB for 1 year older for the same problem. They said they would fix it. After they "fixed" it with no noticeable difference to the noise I took it to an independent shop. This fella told me the axel needed replaced and helped me in the fight with the dealer. This is after concluding that not one thing was even removed at the dealer. Still covered in road dirt and grime. Liars....
Finally, after arguing with the dealer for a week or two, because the car is still under warranty, I finally got the axel replaced and the clicking stopped... On the third trip to the dealer.
I would never take my car to the dealer if it wasn't a warranty thing.
Also, and interesting note is the dealer charged over $800 for the same repair the independent guy quoted me $350 for. And the shop told me if the problem wasn't fixed, he would take his axel back and not charge me!
Dealership repairs scare me, honestly they do. You can taste the incompetence just walking in the doors
Seems like the oil pressure was on the high side. We used to see that at the garage i worked at. Chunks of rtv would restrict movement of the oil pump relief valve leading to excessive oil pressure which led to unwanted vtec/vcm operation. That would explain both issues
Kinda makes me wonder why Honda and Toyota used rubber timing belts as long as they did on an interference engine. When that belt breaks, its all over. GREAT VIDEO!
The chains stretch over time. They say they should last the life of the engine but they just don’t. So since it needs to be replaced it may as well be a maintenance item and be disposable
@@jeffcowan6683 My car is 30 years old and has 500,000 miles and has never been touched and it has chains.
This is a cost analysis issue. A belt will last until warranty period is over and then is a service profit, chains are more costly and generally do not wear if oil changes are consistent.
I got a 2013 chevy sonic for free from my aunt, whenever that dies I'm scared what the car market will look like. These new features like stop/start and stuff are ridiculous. Make me want to get an older used vehicle, older than I would have otherwise.
I did manage to botch a DIY motor mount replacement, and my vibration at idle issue became a vibrate while accelerating and breaking.
Yay.
I know what caused it but not sure it's fixable (at least for a price that's worth it). Need to get it looked at and explain what happened to see if there's a fix for it.
You would think by now a Honda drivability tech would know an intermittent cylinder 3 or cylinder 4 misfire was a problem in the VCM system. But they probably chased off the ones that did in favor of one they could hire for $10 less an hour. Smh
1:00 Honda already had VCM a few years earlier in 2005 Honda Odyssey EX-L and Touring, equipped with J35A7 engine.
good morning Ivan and thanks with any vehicle you give hope for the lost souls
Ivan, I drove a Buick with start stop system. I hate the feeling you get when the car comes to a stop. It shakes every time.
Brilliant analysis.
I've also seen the tiny return springs break on those rocker arms that enable the intakes which makes the intake valves never open and the intake port gets full of gasoline...no codes but misfires cuz the switches worked fine. A little $5 part and the dealer's recommendation was also to replace the engine. lol.
Compression leak? I was thinking about one or more ignition coils. Let see what the outcome is in part 2
When you had the scope in the cylinder , I saw a wet piston or so it looked wet and if so might it be a bad gasket?? My apologies if wrong but that piston looks wet..
Actually Honda VCM was here in ‘05 .. was not having a problem pre se, but just didn’t like it.
I installed a VCMTUNER II. Fixed! It works by intercepting the engine temp, sending the temp reading a few degrees less than full operating temp, so the PCM will not activate VCM, since it thinks full operating temp is never reached.
Looking forward to Part 2 Ivan
Nice video Ivan.
somebody needs to take the EPA out behind the barn
Thanks Ivan!
I'd do an in cylinder test on 6. Per the PHAD test procedures. 😆
though it doesn't apply to accord, the vcm system on the odyssey has some very problematic years such that they issued TSB 13-081. related to piston rings
These vcm engines eat cams too on the Odyssey. The absolute worse j seies my 09 wiped the front cam and rear rings were shot at 200k. VCM muzzel helps! I would recommend that for the customer.
Bought a 13' Odyssey with 168,000 miles for a steal compared to what these things go for. The VCM was throwing misfire codes, it drove my wife nuts when it turned on/off from the bucking. Installed a VCM Tuner 2 on it and it's been happy for 10,000 miles. VCM is junk.
You should work on a 1981 Cadillac 368 engine with the 4/6/8 engine
I needed this. Thanks Ivan
i dont get it from a troubleshooting point of view, If the misfire is cyl 6 and the vps system does not appear to control cyl 6 why are we worried about the vps system? please splain it to me :)
watching all your videos I'm going to stick with my 96 f150 4x4 5.0 kinda rough looking but runs better than the new ones
My wife bought a new 2023 Mazda CX-30 with that cylinder deactivation system, I tried and tried to talk her out of it.
did you listen for leaks on the crankcase side ? to rule out leaky piston .
These dealers are becoming a real joke.
I definitely agree with you on that Ivan the stupid stop star battery is so bloody expensive I see now why people hate it I also cannot stand smart alternators who stop charging once the battery gets to 80%, it's so frustrating and cylinder deactivation is garbage as well but seems to work well on Volkswagens which is good I see why Toyota don't have stuff like that.
You must have a good B&B for someone to drive 8 hours or more to bring you a car
I would suspect a sealing problem with the #6 intake valves, possibly related to the deactivation system or an intake not seating with the engine running. If pressure from #6 is leaking back into the intake manifold when #4 is on the intake stroke it could dilute the mixture to #4 and cause an intermittent misfire. Maybe a vacuum transducer in the intake could help verify the problem.
Cylinders 5 & 6 are not controlled by vcm system, the dealer valve adjustment most likely cause of minor compression issue especially once engine gets hot and the clearances tighten and exacerbate the problem.
Vcm fault is likely a seperate issue. Waiting for part 2, this is a good one. 😊
I still have no idea how it works.
Aaahhhhh Honda-- love the way they drive, but overcomplicated cylinder deactivation system (that causes blowby and piston ring issues) combined with archaic engine design (V6s that STILL use timing belts and solid lifters!!) Only other car I know of that required valve adjustments over the last couple of decades is my 69 VW bug!
These and Ford's often have those kinds of symptoms when their version of a cam/crank relearn need performed. CKP Pattern Clear/Learn Procedure for Honda and Neutral Profile Correction for Ford. At least they seem worse than other manufacturers when needing that done. Chrysler seems bad about setting misfire codes along with fishbite idles when their cam/crank relearn needs done.
Remember the misfiring '98 Camry that "needed an engine"?
Technically they weren't wrong... But 2 new valves made it driveable again 😆
I have an 08 accord v6 with 6 speed manual. Mine has the J35Z3 which doesn’t have this cylinder deactivation system. I’m so thankful, as you said these systems are junk regardless of who makes them
Yup, just change your oil and timing belt, it will go forever! :)
It would be interesting to know what the oil consumption of this engine has been over it's lifespan. A borescope of the entire cylinder as well as the other 5 is the next step that I would take. Dead cylinders will only make the causes of oil consumption worse. In my mind the engine has to be worth fixing.
30,000 miles of slight to complete cylinder misfires isn't something to ignore.