The advent and growth of graffiti in our culture wasn't due solely to "social change". Aerosol spray paint cans were invented in 1949. The tools for graffiti as we know it weren't available prior to the early to mid 1950's, nor commonly available until a number of years later.
Thanks for posting this video. I'm one of the 12% of custom DIYers. As you rightly point out it's an aesthetic choice to include it on a model railroad, and would look very out of place in something like a mid-century era railroad. While I don't defend the practice and wouldn't want it on my garage door I also don't sensationalize or worry that somehow somebody will be inspired to tag a car because of my layout. Some thoughts on the discussion in the video - I've lived in both LA and SF in my career, as well as a number of other cities. They're about on par with more socioeconomically homogenous and far lower violent crime-rate cities in Canada and Europe with respect to prevalence of graffiti. WIth that in mind I'm not sure if the ubiquity of graffiti is as much a function of trends in urban lawlessness per se, versus the longstanding meme behavior in which people memorialize themselves on walls for a variety of motives going back to ancient times. With the rise of spray paint as the preferred medium in the 1970s, this made it possible to quickly make much larger, more visually disruptive tags than in eons past, hence the transition to a much more pointed form of vandalism.
I think this is the best outlook and comment, I agree. I live in a pretty run down part of PA, lots of trains, mills, etc. Graffiti is literally EVERYWHERE. I'm also in my mid 30's and spent over half my life skateboarding and playing guitar so it kind of comes with that territory as well and because of that I guess I hardly notice it anymore. Product of my environment I suppose? Lmao
it makes sense that as the tech evolved so would the 'art'. spray paint cans definitely brought around this revolution. i think we do in some way sensationalize and immortalize the vandals because as railfans we photograph their work and then publish our photos and as you point out - there they live forever just like the memes of the recent years. i don't think modeling graffiti is going to create the next generation of hell-raisers, however. nor do i suspect many will be inspired by our models to go out and create real graffiti so it's probably safe for us to model without being accomplices. it does add a level of realism that's just what our mind expects to see.
Railroad graffiti has been a part of American culture since the 1800s, and has evolved over time: 1800s Railroad workers would write coded messages in chalk and pencil on boxcars to communicate information about cargo, such as arrival and departure times, weights, and dimensions. 1920s-1930s Hobos and railroad workers would create chalk drawings and murals on the inside and outside of freight cars to mark their presence, especially during the Great Depression. 1960s A larger, more graphic style of graffiti called tagging originated in east coast cities as part of hip hop culture. Daryl McRae, also known as Cornbread, is often credited with starting the movement by tagging his nickname on walls in Philadelphia. By the late 1970s, tagging had spread to New York City, where it became a way for young people to express their identity, neighborhood belonging, and revolt against the economic crisis. Today Railroad graffiti continues in the 21st century, with some of the most popular drawings being those by “Colossus of Roads”, which feature a stylized cowboy hatted head and a short verse.
i wouldn't consider the railway workers' markings as graffiti. that was more of a work-related task. the hobo tags yes, but they were usually small and used primarily to guide others riding the rails. they warned everything from where the police were to where you could find food and shelter. today's 'art' is a lot more elaborate and colorful and also more destructive.
@@AlleghenyNorthern Looking at it historically diferent forms of graffiti has always been existing, but until recently it has not been as easily spotted as the aerosol cans made it easy to cover large areas. But i would argue it is easier to restore the surface nowdays than if it was carved into it as was most common for a long time. It seems you think primarily of tagging when talking about graffiti, which is certainly the most commonly seen on railcars, but it is also common with murals that cover a full side of a car (note that markings by the railway is rarely covered as that will get the cart either fully or partly repainted, known as a stamp), and in city environments i see murals more often than on railcars. While i have no interest of doing it myself i can appreciate the art and work that goes into some of these works, and it is apparent that the artform is getting high bids on art-auctions.
I despise graffiti when done on private property. For that reason I was not too interested in modeling it. But after watching your video, as far as rail cars I think I will do it. I work in Los Angeles. The city I work for as part of LA county has a very sophisticated paint truck and they spray over the graffiti to mask it on buildings etc. it’s quite an expense. So most buildings are saved or restored. The railroad here where we are is next to a large BNSF yard is another story. The graffiti doesn’t actually occur in the yard it is operating 24X7 but it happens frequently on SIT tracks and spurs.
I remember those paint trucks from when I lived in LA. In Chicago back in the early aughts we had trucks labeled 'Mayor Daley's Graffiti Blasters' that would power-wash graffiti off of buildings.
i guess that's one way to combat the epidemic. lots of paint though and specialized trucking plus labor - i can see that adding up quickly. it's a shame but i suppose the cities have to continue to attract people to them and if they look abused - scares people away and ruins the city's image. it would be impossible to monitor all the tracks where trains sit - especially somewhere like LA and those big old rolling targets are just there for the tagging. it's a problem i don't see going away and it does add something to our models - especially when they're sitting in industries and sidings.
Hi C Mastracci , very interesting point on graffiti. It’s something that happens in today’s world. It is a form of expression. Don’t like seeing it but it’s there. You know it takes a long time to do some of it. I thought the railroad police would be able to catch a few people doing this. On a different subject. If you haven’t got any of the woodchip hoppers from Trainworx midwestmodelrr has them. Thanks for sharing. Have a good week. 😎😎 👍
i saw them online in both NS and Southern and the temptation is high. i've got my hobby money earmarked for next month already and i don't really have a need for the wood chippers BUT... i'm not saying i won't end up with a half dozen of them anyway!
The subject you covered in the video was well thought out. As I watched it, the time trimming of the decal , supports why more modelers don't have more on their rolling stock. Decals have a place on a flat side of a box car and tank/ covered hoppers but on ribbed cars do you as a modeler have the time to spend to apply with out bubbles or gaps? Questions, did you gloss coat the area before you applied the decal? Did you seal the decal after? FYI if you tear the edge of the paper towel it removes the excess liquid easer. I am not against graffiti, you gave valid reasons why, where and time line. thanks for sharing!!
realistically if you don't trim it tight, it'll still work - but i'd do the weathering after the graffiti to hide the clear decal. it is a good idea to hit it with a sealer - i used dull medium. on a ribbed car, you need to use a good decal set to soften the decal and then push it gently against the car to form to the ribs but being super careful not to tear the soften decal. i will have to tear the towel next time and try that!
its a part of railroading. so its realistic for any railroad if being modeled between 2000 and now. and as it is, its a personal choice. no one should have to ask. if they want to they can, if they dont they dont have to. i like pure clean cars and weathered cars. so i probably wouldn't. but i dont care if some one does. plus whether or not you want to encourage people or not.....i mean there is nothing we can do. our layout using or not using graffiti on cars will not stop anyone who wants to graffiti anything, especially since most of them who do that wont know or care about our layouts in any way. also i should add graffiti is in no way art. i dont even think a fine artist would defend it either. however you are wrong, all art effects people. its entire purpose is to effect people and communicate. the reason graffiti is not art is because it is tagging over someone elses paint scheme (art) and usually has nothing to say. and i always say, we have so many mediums with which to create art. so i dont understand why someone would stoop to the level of soulless graffiti and defacing someone elses property. also a model railroad is an artform, so graffiti is a choice left to the artist in this case. whenever i get to have one all my retaining walls for certain will be clean, with the only character being if the walls are changing color or peeling in places. as for reaching limit. i have seen auto racks with the entire car from top to bottom covered in graffiti, so it can happen. and you do see minimal tagging on the ends of bulkhead flats and tank cars for example. many train cars have tags on both sides, from different people i guess. but i mean you could view one car from the opposite side and it would feel like a different car. also "utpoia" railroads can look realistic, it depends on the skill of the artist.
that's where i landed on graffiti - basically it's part of the railroad now so if you've got an urban layout it definitely enhances the realism. i guess to say graffiti doesn't move people is wrong - it does seem to really upset people so that is an emotion, LOL! i have seen a couple photos of full cars done and i can only imagine where those cars must have been - 1 it's a ton of surface to cover and 2 if it's not near a hillside or platform are these guys now carrying extension ladders to do crime?!
Its basically a decision you make for your railroad. If doing protypical realistic railroad as seen out there then yes but some would still say no cause in their model world there isn't but as i said be true of whats out there you add it. But still its all in preference and your railroad. Honestly its no different adding gentleman clubs to bars and night clubs. They are out there and ditches to pot holes. Its all in preference to what you want or being extremely realistic to what is in our world today. But definitely is a great question. My cars and buildings has the graffiti to also painted over the graffiti.
that's pretty much where it lands. it's part of the environment - whether it's for better or for worse. so to be true to modeling the real world, it has to be included otherwise things will look to neat and organized. that leaves the question - do you model it cleanly with decals or do you customize the graffiti yourself? i've seen plenty of layouts without graffiti that look decent but the ones with it seem to pop more because it's more relatable to the real world. would never fault someone for skipping it or adding it - either way.
i was in you camp for a very long time. i still hate graffiti but since my office relocated to a 'seedy' part of town i've noticed how vandalized real railroads are and i'm making a slight turn on including it. i fully understand why you wouldn't want to include it though.
they do. MicroTrains sells an entire weathered line and some of them have graffiti on the cars already. they're actually not badly done for a mass-produce product.
If you are modeling the last 10 to 20 years, and you dont have graffiti, aren't you engaging in sensorship? Were you aware that Microtrains faced legal action from a tagger or family of a tagger regarding their prototype graffiti cars? Its a crazy world where someone can commit (albeit creative) vandalism on something they don't own, then sue a manufacturer using that (illegal) image. Like it or not, it's not going away. Too bad they can't get jobs that pay for legit uses of their talents.
i did not know MTL got in trouble for replicating a crime... that's truly amazing and highlights yet another sad state for our legal system. it would be great if they could use their talents for good, but until then, i guess we're just going to have to model crime to be accurate.
The idea that there was no graffiti or vandalism during the steam era (or whenever) is false. Colorful, modern graffiti may be a product of consumer spraypaint etc., but there was lots of graffiti in ancient Rome, in the old west, etc. The history of "hobo" graffiti and symbols in America is deep and rich. I think it's reductive and misleading to suggest that graffiti is only a modern inconvenience brought about because of the decline of society. It is more likely an urban/rural distinction, with vandalism being more common in more densely populated areas than in small towns. But since most trains routinely pass through cities, you will see graffiti on trains in the middle of nowhere. It's just a fact. You'll also see graffiti under highway overpasses almost anywhere you look in America.
these may not have been the most fine decals - the film is a bit thicker than say MicroScale - so the ones i didn't trim tight looked bad - even with the Micro sol. fixed it with some weathering but yeah - that's a plug for 'buy good stuff'.
@@AlleghenyNorthern So where does your bad attitude come from? A quick glance at your comment replies on this video highlights you have some internal issues you would do well to work through. We're all hear to listen, if you can be man enough to open up.
@@michaelc3977 i despise criminal acts and the criminals that commit them. If that's a bad attitude, i don't believe i am the person that would need to see someone for help.
@@AlleghenyNorthernWhere I'm from, trespassing is a civil offense and not a criminal one. And you'd certainly be doing yourself a service if you calmed your attitude. Wish you well.
@@michaelc3977 and where i'm from crime is crime and respecting property is taught at a young age. the fact you've argued this long over this topic, which was not even the focus of the post, but whether or not it was to be modeled and regardless of opinion has revealed more about you than about me. if you don't like my attitude please find another channel as your commentary is neither interesting nor relevant.
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The advent and growth of graffiti in our culture wasn't due solely to "social change". Aerosol spray paint cans were invented in 1949. The tools for graffiti as we know it weren't available prior to the early to mid 1950's, nor commonly available until a number of years later.
I’m 1865 ! No Aerosol, no graffiti.
modern tech definitely makes it easier. and more colorful.
Thanks for posting this video. I'm one of the 12% of custom DIYers. As you rightly point out it's an aesthetic choice to include it on a model railroad, and would look very out of place in something like a mid-century era railroad. While I don't defend the practice and wouldn't want it on my garage door I also don't sensationalize or worry that somehow somebody will be inspired to tag a car because of my layout. Some thoughts on the discussion in the video - I've lived in both LA and SF in my career, as well as a number of other cities. They're about on par with more socioeconomically homogenous and far lower violent crime-rate cities in Canada and Europe with respect to prevalence of graffiti. WIth that in mind I'm not sure if the ubiquity of graffiti is as much a function of trends in urban lawlessness per se, versus the longstanding meme behavior in which people memorialize themselves on walls for a variety of motives going back to ancient times. With the rise of spray paint as the preferred medium in the 1970s, this made it possible to quickly make much larger, more visually disruptive tags than in eons past, hence the transition to a much more pointed form of vandalism.
I think this is the best outlook and comment, I agree. I live in a pretty run down part of PA, lots of trains, mills, etc. Graffiti is literally EVERYWHERE. I'm also in my mid 30's and spent over half my life skateboarding and playing guitar so it kind of comes with that territory as well and because of that I guess I hardly notice it anymore. Product of my environment I suppose? Lmao
it makes sense that as the tech evolved so would the 'art'. spray paint cans definitely brought around this revolution. i think we do in some way sensationalize and immortalize the vandals because as railfans we photograph their work and then publish our photos and as you point out - there they live forever just like the memes of the recent years. i don't think modeling graffiti is going to create the next generation of hell-raisers, however. nor do i suspect many will be inspired by our models to go out and create real graffiti so it's probably safe for us to model without being accomplices. it does add a level of realism that's just what our mind expects to see.
Railroad graffiti has been a part of American culture since the 1800s, and has evolved over time:
1800s
Railroad workers would write coded messages in chalk and pencil on boxcars to communicate information about cargo, such as arrival and departure times, weights, and dimensions.
1920s-1930s
Hobos and railroad workers would create chalk drawings and murals on the inside and outside of freight cars to mark their presence, especially during the Great Depression.
1960s
A larger, more graphic style of graffiti called tagging originated in east coast cities as part of hip hop culture. Daryl McRae, also known as Cornbread, is often credited with starting the movement by tagging his nickname on walls in Philadelphia. By the late 1970s, tagging had spread to New York City, where it became a way for young people to express their identity, neighborhood belonging, and revolt against the economic crisis.
Today
Railroad graffiti continues in the 21st century, with some of the most popular drawings being those by “Colossus of Roads”, which feature a stylized cowboy hatted head and a short verse.
i wouldn't consider the railway workers' markings as graffiti. that was more of a work-related task. the hobo tags yes, but they were usually small and used primarily to guide others riding the rails. they warned everything from where the police were to where you could find food and shelter. today's 'art' is a lot more elaborate and colorful and also more destructive.
@@AlleghenyNorthern Looking at it historically diferent forms of graffiti has always been existing, but until recently it has not been as easily spotted as the aerosol cans made it easy to cover large areas. But i would argue it is easier to restore the surface nowdays than if it was carved into it as was most common for a long time.
It seems you think primarily of tagging when talking about graffiti, which is certainly the most commonly seen on railcars, but it is also common with murals that cover a full side of a car (note that markings by the railway is rarely covered as that will get the cart either fully or partly repainted, known as a stamp), and in city environments i see murals more often than on railcars.
While i have no interest of doing it myself i can appreciate the art and work that goes into some of these works, and it is apparent that the artform is getting high bids on art-auctions.
I despise graffiti when done on private property. For that reason I was not too interested in modeling it. But after watching your video, as far as rail cars I think I will do it. I work in Los Angeles. The city I work for as part of LA county has a very sophisticated paint truck and they spray over the graffiti to mask it on buildings etc. it’s quite an expense. So most buildings are saved or restored. The railroad here where we are is next to a large BNSF yard is another story. The graffiti doesn’t actually occur in the yard it is operating 24X7 but it happens frequently on SIT tracks and spurs.
I remember those paint trucks from when I lived in LA. In Chicago back in the early aughts we had trucks labeled 'Mayor Daley's Graffiti Blasters' that would power-wash graffiti off of buildings.
i guess that's one way to combat the epidemic. lots of paint though and specialized trucking plus labor - i can see that adding up quickly. it's a shame but i suppose the cities have to continue to attract people to them and if they look abused - scares people away and ruins the city's image. it would be impossible to monitor all the tracks where trains sit - especially somewhere like LA and those big old rolling targets are just there for the tagging. it's a problem i don't see going away and it does add something to our models - especially when they're sitting in industries and sidings.
I work at a BNSF intermodal and autorack yard, it’s extremely rare not finding graffiti on a railcar.
If you want Nowadays You see Rolling Stock with Grafiti.
Hi C Mastracci , very interesting point on graffiti. It’s something that happens in today’s world. It is a form of expression. Don’t like seeing it but it’s there. You know it takes a long time to do some of it. I thought the railroad police would be able to catch a few people doing this. On a different subject. If you haven’t got any of the woodchip hoppers from Trainworx midwestmodelrr has them. Thanks for sharing. Have a good week. 😎😎 👍
i saw them online in both NS and Southern and the temptation is high. i've got my hobby money earmarked for next month already and i don't really have a need for the wood chippers BUT... i'm not saying i won't end up with a half dozen of them anyway!
The subject you covered in the video was well thought out. As I watched it, the time trimming of the decal , supports why more modelers don't have more on their rolling stock. Decals have a place on a flat side of a box car and tank/ covered hoppers but on ribbed cars do you as a modeler have the time to spend to apply with out bubbles or gaps? Questions, did you gloss coat the area before you applied the decal? Did you seal the decal after? FYI if you tear the edge of the paper towel it removes the excess liquid easer. I am not against graffiti, you gave valid reasons why, where and time line.
thanks for sharing!!
realistically if you don't trim it tight, it'll still work - but i'd do the weathering after the graffiti to hide the clear decal. it is a good idea to hit it with a sealer - i used dull medium. on a ribbed car, you need to use a good decal set to soften the decal and then push it gently against the car to form to the ribs but being super careful not to tear the soften decal. i will have to tear the towel next time and try that!
its a part of railroading. so its realistic for any railroad if being modeled between 2000 and now. and as it is, its a personal choice. no one should have to ask. if they want to they can, if they dont they dont have to. i like pure clean cars and weathered cars. so i probably wouldn't. but i dont care if some one does. plus whether or not you want to encourage people or not.....i mean there is nothing we can do. our layout using or not using graffiti on cars will not stop anyone who wants to graffiti anything, especially since most of them who do that wont know or care about our layouts in any way. also i should add graffiti is in no way art. i dont even think a fine artist would defend it either. however you are wrong, all art effects people. its entire purpose is to effect people and communicate. the reason graffiti is not art is because it is tagging over someone elses paint scheme (art) and usually has nothing to say. and i always say, we have so many mediums with which to create art. so i dont understand why someone would stoop to the level of soulless graffiti and defacing someone elses property. also a model railroad is an artform, so graffiti is a choice left to the artist in this case. whenever i get to have one all my retaining walls for certain will be clean, with the only character being if the walls are changing color or peeling in places. as for reaching limit. i have seen auto racks with the entire car from top to bottom covered in graffiti, so it can happen. and you do see minimal tagging on the ends of bulkhead flats and tank cars for example. many train cars have tags on both sides, from different people i guess. but i mean you could view one car from the opposite side and it would feel like a different car. also "utpoia" railroads can look realistic, it depends on the skill of the artist.
that's where i landed on graffiti - basically it's part of the railroad now so if you've got an urban layout it definitely enhances the realism. i guess to say graffiti doesn't move people is wrong - it does seem to really upset people so that is an emotion, LOL! i have seen a couple photos of full cars done and i can only imagine where those cars must have been - 1 it's a ton of surface to cover and 2 if it's not near a hillside or platform are these guys now carrying extension ladders to do crime?!
Its basically a decision you make for your railroad. If doing protypical realistic railroad as seen out there then yes but some would still say no cause in their model world there isn't but as i said be true of whats out there you add it. But still its all in preference and your railroad. Honestly its no different adding gentleman clubs to bars and night clubs. They are out there and ditches to pot holes. Its all in preference to what you want or being extremely realistic to what is in our world today. But definitely is a great question. My cars and buildings has the graffiti to also painted over the graffiti.
that's pretty much where it lands. it's part of the environment - whether it's for better or for worse. so to be true to modeling the real world, it has to be included otherwise things will look to neat and organized. that leaves the question - do you model it cleanly with decals or do you customize the graffiti yourself? i've seen plenty of layouts without graffiti that look decent but the ones with it seem to pop more because it's more relatable to the real world. would never fault someone for skipping it or adding it - either way.
I don't like it in real life so I surely don't like it in my little personally built world. Weathered is nice graffiti is not in my opinion.
i was in you camp for a very long time. i still hate graffiti but since my office relocated to a 'seedy' part of town i've noticed how vandalized real railroads are and i'm making a slight turn on including it. i fully understand why you wouldn't want to include it though.
If I am Not mistaken they Have Rolling Stock With it On it When Being Sold.in it’s Package.
they do. MicroTrains sells an entire weathered line and some of them have graffiti on the cars already. they're actually not badly done for a mass-produce product.
If you are modeling the last 10 to 20 years, and you dont have graffiti, aren't you engaging in sensorship?
Were you aware that Microtrains faced legal action from a tagger or family of a tagger regarding their prototype graffiti cars? Its a crazy world where someone can commit (albeit creative) vandalism on something they don't own, then sue a manufacturer using that (illegal) image. Like it or not, it's not going away. Too bad they can't get jobs that pay for legit uses of their talents.
i did not know MTL got in trouble for replicating a crime... that's truly amazing and highlights yet another sad state for our legal system. it would be great if they could use their talents for good, but until then, i guess we're just going to have to model crime to be accurate.
The idea that there was no graffiti or vandalism during the steam era (or whenever) is false. Colorful, modern graffiti may be a product of consumer spraypaint etc., but there was lots of graffiti in ancient Rome, in the old west, etc. The history of "hobo" graffiti and symbols in America is deep and rich. I think it's reductive and misleading to suggest that graffiti is only a modern inconvenience brought about because of the decline of society. It is more likely an urban/rural distinction, with vandalism being more common in more densely populated areas than in small towns. But since most trains routinely pass through cities, you will see graffiti on trains in the middle of nowhere. It's just a fact. You'll also see graffiti under highway overpasses almost anywhere you look in America.
You dont have to trim that precisely. Micro sol is critical. Watch some videos of military scale modelers.
these may not have been the most fine decals - the film is a bit thicker than say MicroScale - so the ones i didn't trim tight looked bad - even with the Micro sol. fixed it with some weathering but yeah - that's a plug for 'buy good stuff'.
Will you be at scale trains meet and greet on Monday in altoona
i will not be. next show for me will be altoona.
Trespassing isn't a crime!!
seems like something a criminal would say...
@@AlleghenyNorthern So where does your bad attitude come from? A quick glance at your comment replies on this video highlights you have some internal issues you would do well to work through. We're all hear to listen, if you can be man enough to open up.
@@michaelc3977 i despise criminal acts and the criminals that commit them. If that's a bad attitude, i don't believe i am the person that would need to see someone for help.
@@AlleghenyNorthernWhere I'm from, trespassing is a civil offense and not a criminal one. And you'd certainly be doing yourself a service if you calmed your attitude. Wish you well.
@@michaelc3977 and where i'm from crime is crime and respecting property is taught at a young age. the fact you've argued this long over this topic, which was not even the focus of the post, but whether or not it was to be modeled and regardless of opinion has revealed more about you than about me. if you don't like my attitude please find another channel as your commentary is neither interesting nor relevant.