Oh I’d definitely listen to that. I appreciate the candor and thoughtfulness they both bring to their videos. That, and the fact that they have so much experience. It’s especially cool hearing creative reflections on games that I know very well
Raising the bar? He conquered it with an arrow through the heart [With an additional arrow letting you know that the first arrow is indeed going through the heart].
Josh did a great job balancing vanilla New Vegas but the real rabbit hole is fine-tuning the game by carefully selecting, fixing, merging and ultimately installing hundreds of mods.
Personally, I'm a fan of modular difficulties that we're starting to see more of (like was added to Starfield post release) in RPGs specifically that allow you to adjust tons of different things to your own personal taste not all that dissimilar to Magran's Fires in Deadfire.
Yeah me too. I'm the guy in 7:49 but that applies high lethality to you and the enemies since I hate health-sponginess. Also, imho, D&D-style dramatic level-based health scaling feels super bad since it makes one of the sides like using noodle weapons when there are level differences.
I actually don’t like those, it kind of paralyzes me with choice and I don’t really understand the actual effect most changes will have until I’ve played the game anyway. I don’t tend to touch these settings and like having presets. The options is fine, but I don’t think a purely modular system without well balanced easy, medium, hard is good
@@Itgetsbetterofficial I used to be the same way but then I kinda just changed my mind I guess. I used to hate the idea of having the choice but now I just appreciate the ability to change things how I see fit. I do agree having presets for easy, normal, hard etc alongside the modular settings is a good thing, but I still think modular settings are unambiguously good things to have as long as you don’t overthink them
New Vegas was my first Fallout game. Trying to go north from Goodsprings, it never felt like "you cannot go here", it felt like "you cannot go here *yet*", which made me look forward to getting stronger and squishing those goddamned bugs. (Doesn't mean I still wasn't scared shitless as I popped those cazadores with the Gobi campaign rifle) I think that the ability to evoke those feelings are huge props to you and the team 😄
And the thing about those little bastards is You can cheese the shit outta them by using the cliffs and the merc 40mm so I always save as much explosives and explosive adjacent aid items in the early game
@@giovannicervantes2053 you can also sneak by the deathclaws and mutants quite easily if you know the route and I always saw that as an intended shortcut for experienced players who don't want to take the long and boring path
At 26 I started my solo game dev journey, due to being inspired by the work your teams create & knowledge you & others like Tim Cain have shared. Thank you for the education & insight. Your content has meant the world for my motivation
Love the channel Josh! Between your quick talks and Tim Cain's quick design talks I feel like I get a great general idea of your thoughts behind-the-scenes. Cant wait for more! :)
Good video. I think one of the reasons balance is particularly important in a singleplayer RPG is that has a large impact on the variety of possible characters. If you have 20 classes, but one is obviously head and shoulders above the others, it's going to have a lot less character variety than a game with 5 well balanced classes. I think Skyrim is a pretty interesting example; there's a common meme about how every playthrough eventually becomes a stealth archer. It's just a much more powerful option than most of the other classes (along with having the most mechanical complexity in terms of execution), so a lot of players naturally gravitate towards it, even if they don't realize it.
I am feeling that now in Warhammer 3, a game that's damn near impossible to balance. The Tzench faction, their ultra basic very bottom unit is called a Blue Screamer, and it has to be the most powerful basic unit in the game. So it makes building a high level army hard since the basic unit can carry you.
I will never understand why games like Skyrim where melee is just pointing in the general direction of an enemy doesn't take inspiration from games like Dark Messiah of Magic and Might. Like you said archery is usually a go to for most players because it is the most effective and more complex only because of the simple fact that you have to aim the bow and account for movement and the trajectory of the arrow. Basic stuff. Dark Messiah is know for being a ragdoll simulator, but it also makes melee combat a lot of fun and creative. It also makes magic creative. Like if you shrink someone in DM you can stomp their little bodies. You can ice the ground the make the enemy slip over a ledge or into spikes.
@@SuperHansimann In addition to what Firetrainer said, ask yourself why you feel Skyrim *needs* a more complex or involved combat system. It sounds like a perception issue on your end rather than Bethesda's tbh. Not every game needs or wants an intricate combat system. That said, Skyrim was originally intended to have a more interactive magic system that was scrapped at some point in development. You were supposed to be able to combine spells to create unique or enhanced effects. I don't entirely remember the reason why it was scrapped, but I believe it ended up being too costly. Also consider that Dark Messiah is not an open-world RPG. Bethesda barely got Skyrim out in a (somewhat) playable state. There's a lot of development costs to consider when making decisions like this. Could they have done it? Maybe. But they didn't and it seems to be working out for them. We'll see what they bring w/ ES6.
I LOVE the scaling system in new Vegas where you have elites that stay hard as fuck the entire game, it can be like a litmus test. As opposed to F4 enemies leveling with you simply feels less immersive for whatever reason. Just immaculate vibes coming from this absolute gem
The power that comes from knowing how the game works is what gives most games replay value, imo. A first playthrough is for the thrill of discovery and challenge and what not, but your 4-5th playthrough is just comfort food. It SHOULD be easier.
Meta Mastery can also be a curse, which is exactly why I made the Randomiser for System Shock 2. After 5-6 playthroughs, knowing where everything was is definitely antithetical to the intended experience of helplessness. Randomising item spawns while keeping the overall distribution consistent allowed the game to retain that feeling, especially since some of the hardest areas in the game also have some of the worst loot - something players wouldn't know on a first playthrough, but which quickly becomes important on future playthroughs when most players avoid these areas because they know there's nothing of value there. Randomising item locations in an open game obviously has bad connotations because it's been done badly so many times (Fallout 3 comes to mind) where the whole world feels like it revolves around you, but it's also a very useful tool for combating meta mastery. Some people may like that they can get a certain piece of armour early and steamroll the game, but for a veteran player just looking for a "normal" experience, knowing where good stuff is can be a real drag on the experience.
It's definitely possible to die early on, like the first time you pick a fight with giants for example. It's just unfortunate that the game loses any of that level of resistance pretty quickly and never recovers it
I hope some day you're able to do a video/thread on your design philosophy behind characters, particularly Arcade Gannon. He means a lot to me, and I'll forever be thankful you wrote him as he is because at the time, I hadn't seen any characters like him whatsoever. Thank you for creating him.
FNV was my first and favorite Fallout game. I've played plenty of others, but NV had those deep storylines, high perk variety, memorable NPCs, and proper pacing difficulty-wise. Got massive DPS? That deathclaw or cazadore are still going to massacre you in a few hits. It's that constant looming fear of mortality that makes the game. Being an unstoppable force is great until you realize there's no thrill in a fight being one-sided. The adrenaline pumping keeps me going! Not to mention all the niche and fantastic crafts you could make with the various crafting stations. They added so much flavor to the game when you wanted to hunt for a specific ingredient. Don't get me wrong, a game like Fallout 4 or Skyrim were great and all. But endgame combat always ended the same. I'd win the fight and proceed to eat everyone before going to the next. Kind of leaves a bit of bad flavor in your mouth.
Dude you gotta do these more! Always hoped you would do it after I saw Tim Cain doing it, you two rock. Also, hope it cools down man, no ac? Can totally get that
Fallout's trend towards difficulty has been slowly improving. It really started with New Vegas and the feeling that there's some kind of really difficult survival challenge waiting just beyond the grasp. Dead Money was difficult cause it wasn't just about health and weapons, and we all perceived Lonesome Road to really be that kind of challenge we were waiting for. Fallout 4 eventually got their own Survival Mode which is honestly a brilliant experience... All the way until lvl20 when you eventually do become overpowered regardless of any of your choices. And FO76 was sort of based off FO4 Survival Mode (which, in turn was also inspired by NV obviously). FO76 is actually mostly easy, but even with an optimized build there are moments where you have to stay on your guard, an in the quests there are a couple places I couldn't even beat right away, so there's something. This summer I've tried JSawyer mod for the first time after knowing about it for years and I'm honestly enjoying it. Although inventory management does seem to take about 30% of my gameplay time... lol
I like a system of "Normal" and "Survival / Hardcore". You learn how the game works on an easier difficulty and then crack everything up in the "survival" difficulty, that way you're forced to interact with more systems that may not be essential in the "normal" difficulty.
The only issue I have with this distinction is when damage values/other random features like the ability to save wherever are changed around to make the experience more difficult. I think survival elements that engage all of a games systems/increase player immersion should be considered/changed separately from more arbitrary challenge scaling like enemy health, damage scaling, or limited saving.
@@sieda666 But those are also counted under the "more systems". There is no reason to for an example use the carts in Skyrim if you can still fast travel. No reason to worry about beds and sleeping availability if you can just save wherever. This was known all the way back in ancient games where you had save rooms and limited amounts of save items.
Really loving the most recent stint of videos. Its great having good game design thought from storied developers freely accessible on the internet. I still remeber some early videos you did about Pillars 1 that had an impact when I was first getting into game development. Keep it up! Also thank you for your contribution.
Man, I remember playing F:NV on release on the Xbox 360. I didn't have internet at the time, so I was playing pre-patch, so I had the ridiculously tanky Deathclaws. Those who know, know. I got the Abilene Kid BB Gun, and I was just screwing around and seeing how good my build was, and I was one-shotting BoS Knights with this BB gun while sneaking through the Hidden Valley Bunker. Was it a balanced experience? Absolutely not. Was it a good experience? Definitely, it's one that has stuck with me to this day. I have you and the fantastic team from F:NV to thank for this memory.
I'm glad to see a discussion like this given that I am still riding high on Baldur's Gate 3 and enjoy theorycrafting, but I feel like a lot of the discussion around that game is kind of poisoned by overpowered balance decisions that a lot of players defend by saying "well it's a single player game, who cares if x build completely trivializes content?" Which isn't even true, btw, for example just yesterday I responded in a thread giving someone advice for what to make to play with their dad in co-op who was planning to play a wizard. Anyway, with regard to New Vegas balance, one of the things I have noticed over the years is that the mechanical demands of the players in terms of fighting is low, but the logistical demands are higher - that is, that the skill expression in the game sort of comes from a place of inventory management, which some people might find boring but is actually what I love doing. Things like, are you making good quality food, do you have enough handload ammo, is your gear in good shape? Are the questions that decide how you will do in combat compared to your ability to dodge or aim.
Love the last bit. Being able to route out ways to become brokenly OP early in "open world" type games is one of my favorite things in gaming. It's something that really rewards understanding and mastering the game, and without external things like achievements or whatnot to try and "force" it to happen.
Good video. Around the 5 minute mark when Josh got a call and immediately started describing a castle surrounded by a moat, I was a bit confused, but still a good experience overall.
I like to be challenged, but well-made and balanced challenges. As you mentioned, Skyrim is a game that I love and have played a lot, but the balancing when the game's difficulty changes was ridiculous. You would put it on the highest difficulty and horrible things would happen, like a crab killing you faster than a Dragon, hahaha. It was a balance based solely on blind scaling! xD Deadfire has perfect balance in my opinion. All you need is knowledge of the game and you will be rewarded. You have several ways to deal with opponents creatively, and mechanically you can also create plays, like disengaging from an enemy attack at the exact moment the attack animation is coming out. Something like a manual dodge. Or simply knowing the enemy's weak point and taking advantage of it, for example using a simple Chill Fog to blind enemies at a distance and make them gather together, making it easier for you to control them. Another thing is "kiting", the act of attacking from a distance and running so that enemies can't reach you... I could spend an entire afternoon listing several ways to deal with opponents in PotD, but then the text would be too long XD Anyway, when they say that games like Souls are challenging, I agree, but are they good for me? NO! I prefer more strategic, fun challenges that are less focused on reflexes.
I think it’s clear you made the right choice in new Vegas given the examples you talk about are still discussed positively. The cazadores and deathclaws near the beginning of new vegas communicated effectively that it was not the same as fo3/oblivion. It made the arc of your character that much more satisfying to be stomped by some bugs early on, and return later to get revenge once you’ve traveled the Mojave.
I enjoyed in Skyrim every town/village has the basics, an inn, blacksmith, trader, alchemist (or at least an inn). It meant you can just “settle” in a town. Like in Skyrim I visit a hold, go to the jarls hall and get the “area quest” and while I’m doing that I base myself out of the local tavern. It’s very different to nv where you aren’t really connected to a location, I would rent a room at the atomic wrangler but it doesn’t have the same feeling as arriving in a city as Skyrim. The denizens of free side don’t really live in free side and move about and interact with stuff, you don’t see the King Mick/Ralph in atomic wrangler after their stores close.
8:10 haha this describes exactly how I would spend forever modding the 3D fallouts, I always wanted it to feel like insurgency. It never actually ended up being an enjoyable experience though, because so many additional elements are required to add balance. Increasing ammo scarcity makes it feel weird when the AI has infinite, but making them spend ammo ends with them wasting it all and coming at you with a knife. Levels also become unsatisfying so you need to rework what the skill points and perks do. Then the armour doesn't feel realistic because the protection doesn't apply to the specific body part, e.g. I couldn't get a metal helmet to block head damage. The list goes on. I wasn't a good enough modder to make what I really wanted because all I could figure out how to do was adjust values, but all the other mods out there that I could find just made the game too easy.
I think you got the balance on Fallout New Vegas pretty well done. Just having heavy metal armor vs bandits in the early game and vice versa makes quite the difference. Mid game the fiends can still somewhat pack a punch earlier with plasma weapons. While stuff like Ranger hit squads can get nasty. Lategame it kinda pans out but at that point you have the tools to deal with stuff and the powerarmor. That said: Deathclaws and especially Cazadors are still a pain in the ass to deal with :D
Hollllyyyy shit holy shit, thank you JE Sawyer, surprised to hear so much recently, all the red arrows and key-words had me stunned like a deer in headlights :3
Oh... Morrowind, the beeline to Caldera's Merchant for Skills Founds, then the one for Vivec City for its juicy guards... for Skills Founds, then the one for the Vaults at Vivec for the even more insane Skills Founds and finally, the mastery beeline for the Daedric sites for those overpowered weapons. While even after this fun run, the game can still kill you on the spot of you get too cocky.
Personal subjective opinion: most RPGs have this problem for me where the beginning is nice, but the latter part is so easy that I'm just sleepwalking through combat which starts to fill more like a hindrance to seeing the end of the story than any fun in itself and I just want to get it over with. All the loot loses excitement too, because you don't need any of it. I want to start over but I also want to finish the story - and there's still hours of it left! And I'm not even a big minmaxer, I only pay attention to tooltips and explore a lot, that's it. From Fallout in 1997 to New Vegas to Tyranny, it has always been the case. The combat stops being fun waaaay before the story stops, and that's an issue. The reason is probably what Josh mentioned: where the player is power-wise becomes a more and more open question the more the player is into the game. It's difficult to tune around that. The fundamental issue is the concept of levelling itself. The most balanced games either do not have levelling or it affects the player power much more subtly than in an average RPG. The bosses in Hollow Knight stay a major challenge even if you have a bit more health and charms.
1:52 Shocker /s. As a young kid, I almost skipped playing New Vegas because I was bored out of my mind playing FO3. It's a good thing that I gave FONV a shot and now I play it at least twice a year as an adult with crippling depression.
I enjoyed fo3 but I very much did agree with the sentiment of it being pretty much oblivion with guns. More of a sandbox than a game with a satisfying arc
@@user-ow1bc4sx2r People joke about it, but it was intentional by Bethesda that TES and Fallout felt and played similar. They settled on a common gameplay schtick and merely swapped the genres. I think it was during a Starfield interview video where Todd Howard mentioned something about it, but unfortunately I can't narrow it down to which specific video.
I'm a fan of the 'reasonably challenging early game -> Powerhouse Endgame' difficulty pipeline. Especially when there's a lot of different ways to achieve that powerhouse status. But what I really like to see in those games- and it's not something that comes up super often- are optional Superbosses or "Danger Zones"; stuff intended to be a challenge specifically for Level Capped, ground-out and optimized characters. New Vegas had a bit of that with the Legendary Bloatfly, Courier's Mile, etc. But that's what I enjoy most about Bethesda-Engine games and their moddability.
I would honestly see a podcast by Tim Cain and Josh Sawyer where they talk about developing games and also invite fans and TH-camrs to talk about rpg games and what people want out of future games.
When I played fallout NV I had two experiences. 1: Making my way first to the south west I believe, then relatively easily through the center, finding the brotherhood, that space launch site,the deathclaw pit, the bomber people(edit: I died to them, did not engage), that weird sort of violent gambling city, and I went in the city and defeated the guy I thought was the main boss. I basically did it bc the opening cut scene led me there, and the side quests didn’t grab too much of my time or interest I guess. after beating him I instantly didn’t care anymore and was fully disillusioned with the amount of game there was to discover and I quit. 2: The other time I was leveling up and tried to do a POI/quest that was down southeast, that was actually DLC (I didn’t know). All the enemies were OP compared to my meager leveling and I ran out of ammo and died. I was sort of hoping to discover better weapons there. Haven’t gone back to a fallout game for like 5+ years. I feel personally that games like Call of Pripyat were more immersive, intriguing, and engaging to me. But we all have different experiences
Can't believe you didn't do a pogging face on the thumbnail. EDIT: Also, regarding your final point on powerleveling, I completely agree. Kingdom Come Deliverance is one that comes to mind. An insanely obtuse and difficult game on your 1st playthrough, but when you start the game knowing where the best sword, armor set and horse ..etc are and beeline for them, it becomes much more manageable. That "powerleveling" experience is something I always love to do in RPGs.
I think by and large you did a really solid job with the DLC balance, at least as far as combat and enemy stats are concerned. I do think each DLC overtaxed different skills, but given the circumstances it was very well done.
One of the most important thing to mention: difficulty creates immersion. Its like the world is built around the player to enjoy (easy games) or the player find themselves in a world to enjoy (difficult games). NPC is a content in a game (easy game) or a person in a world (hard game).
You're exactly right. When Josh was talking about the early game sort of texture of NV, what I thought about was how the first time I met Vulpes Inculta in Nipton I was actually afraid of him. Specifically because not long before it I had experienced firsthand that the dogshit guns and ammo I had weren't enough to armor pen the giant scorpions off the path from Primm to the Mojave Outpost.
I have New Vegas modded on PC. It's set up so I can get a hunting rifle and put a scope on it near the beginning. It's certainly not sufficient for Cazadores or Deathclaws, but it's enough for me to take on Lonesome Road. Starting with pre-order pack armor, I can sneak and snipe my way into the last and highest level DLC at around 9th or 10th level, to gear up for the rest of the game. I will still role play following Benny and Great Khans to find out more about them. I want the guy that shot me in the face! It's also a little peace of mind to find out about the other courier that backed out of the Platinum Chip job to try and get me killed. That's how I do it. Everybody have fun doing it your way.
Back to back uploads!? Look out Tim Cain
We need the Josh & Tim podcast like once a week lol. Featuring snoring dog in the background.
Oh I’d definitely listen to that. I appreciate the candor and thoughtfulness they both bring to their videos. That, and the fact that they have so much experience. It’s especially cool hearing creative reflections on games that I know very well
Raising the bar on the clickbait game
Raising the bar? He conquered it with an arrow through the heart [With an additional arrow letting you know that the first arrow is indeed going through the heart].
I never expected this from him, and it's hilarious XD
Leave my goat alone
Love the contrast between the over the top silliness of the thumbnail and the calm conversational tone of the actual content
Just chiming in to say that your thumbnail game is on point. Hopefully weather has been cooler recently!
achieved CHIM
your complaint about new vegas' shoving cowboy aesthetics "down your throat" makes no sense tbqh, unless you really, REALLY, hate cowboys.
@@bigtastyben5119 No it makes perfect sense, Fallout was never about real world aesthetics.
Josh did a great job balancing vanilla New Vegas but the real rabbit hole is fine-tuning the game by carefully selecting, fixing, merging and ultimately installing hundreds of mods.
Especially jsawyer.
Viva New Vegas has this covered, giving you a fair and balanced FNV experience.
scrolled to read comments and when i went back i was met by 0:05
Lmao
Personally, I'm a fan of modular difficulties that we're starting to see more of (like was added to Starfield post release) in RPGs specifically that allow you to adjust tons of different things to your own personal taste not all that dissimilar to Magran's Fires in Deadfire.
I agree! Starfield’s post-launch difficulty settings are excellent, and I’d love to see more of that going forward
Yeah me too. I'm the guy in 7:49 but that applies high lethality to you and the enemies since I hate health-sponginess. Also, imho, D&D-style dramatic level-based health scaling feels super bad since it makes one of the sides like using noodle weapons when there are level differences.
I actually don’t like those, it kind of paralyzes me with choice and I don’t really understand the actual effect most changes will have until I’ve played the game anyway. I don’t tend to touch these settings and like having presets.
The options is fine, but I don’t think a purely modular system without well balanced easy, medium, hard is good
@@Itgetsbetterofficial I used to be the same way but then I kinda just changed my mind I guess. I used to hate the idea of having the choice but now I just appreciate the ability to change things how I see fit. I do agree having presets for easy, normal, hard etc alongside the modular settings is a good thing, but I still think modular settings are unambiguously good things to have as long as you don’t overthink them
@@UlissesSampaiothat’s the entire point, if you could just melt someone from a lower level, what’s the point of a leveling system
I could listen to you talk about New Vegas for hours
The playthroughs he did are awesome
Or anything really
Josh you should do more clickbait video titles JOSH SAWYER new vegas man REVEALS secrets to GAME BALANCE
"The secrets THEY don't want you to know!"
10 reasons FN:NV is better than BMW: Reason #9 will surprise you!
Ed. note: Reason #9 will not surprise you
"Fallout 3 was not a hard game" is perfect clickbait too
Ave, true to Sawyer.
Hell's yeah!
"We completely abandoned the concept of balance within the DLCs"
- creator of Dead Money
He uh.. didn't do that one. That was Chris lmao.
@@Nilon241yeah I don’t think he’s attributing that quote to Josh I think he’s saying that Avellone originally said that
New Vegas was my first Fallout game. Trying to go north from Goodsprings, it never felt like "you cannot go here", it felt like "you cannot go here *yet*", which made me look forward to getting stronger and squishing those goddamned bugs. (Doesn't mean I still wasn't scared shitless as I popped those cazadores with the Gobi campaign rifle)
I think that the ability to evoke those feelings are huge props to you and the team 😄
And the thing about those little bastards is
You can cheese the shit outta them by using the cliffs and the merc 40mm so I always save as much explosives and explosive adjacent aid items in the early game
@@giovannicervantes2053 you can also sneak by the deathclaws and mutants quite easily if you know the route and I always saw that as an intended shortcut for experienced players who don't want to take the long and boring path
@@markblacket8900 Or you can run through Scorpion Gultch and come out behind Helios One.
I'm just hypnotised watching Falconhoof, waiting to see if his eyes pop up.
HULLO TRAVLER
Kill Jester
I looked around trying to find him behind Josh and was taken by surprise.
I just watched the falcon hoof part from the xmas special and then randomly clicked this video from my homepage and seen the t-shirt.
Mind boggling.
Kill Boon
The Jsawyer mod for NV changes so many things, big and small. I don't play NV without it anymore, makes the game so much fun.
At 26 I started my solo game dev journey, due to being inspired by the work your teams create & knowledge you & others like Tim Cain have shared.
Thank you for the education & insight. Your content has meant the world for my motivation
DT is one of my favorite defense systems in games. It's one of the main reasons I prefer NV's gunplay of all the 3D fallouts.
Love the channel Josh! Between your quick talks and Tim Cain's quick design talks I feel like I get a great general idea of your thoughts behind-the-scenes. Cant wait for more! :)
Good video. I think one of the reasons balance is particularly important in a singleplayer RPG is that has a large impact on the variety of possible characters. If you have 20 classes, but one is obviously head and shoulders above the others, it's going to have a lot less character variety than a game with 5 well balanced classes.
I think Skyrim is a pretty interesting example; there's a common meme about how every playthrough eventually becomes a stealth archer. It's just a much more powerful option than most of the other classes (along with having the most mechanical complexity in terms of execution), so a lot of players naturally gravitate towards it, even if they don't realize it.
I am feeling that now in Warhammer 3, a game that's damn near impossible to balance. The Tzench faction, their ultra basic very bottom unit is called a Blue Screamer, and it has to be the most powerful basic unit in the game. So it makes building a high level army hard since the basic unit can carry you.
I will never understand why games like Skyrim where melee is just pointing in the general direction of an enemy doesn't take inspiration from games like Dark Messiah of Magic and Might. Like you said archery is usually a go to for most players because it is the most effective and more complex only because of the simple fact that you have to aim the bow and account for movement and the trajectory of the arrow. Basic stuff.
Dark Messiah is know for being a ragdoll simulator, but it also makes melee combat a lot of fun and creative. It also makes magic creative. Like if you shrink someone in DM you can stomp their little bodies. You can ice the ground the make the enemy slip over a ledge or into spikes.
@@SuperHansimann They don't design their games to be that intricate. It's why such a simple strat works so well
@@SuperHansimann Man, you just reminded me that I need to get around to playing Dark Messiah. I've had it sitting in my library for a few months now.
@@SuperHansimann In addition to what Firetrainer said, ask yourself why you feel Skyrim *needs* a more complex or involved combat system. It sounds like a perception issue on your end rather than Bethesda's tbh. Not every game needs or wants an intricate combat system. That said, Skyrim was originally intended to have a more interactive magic system that was scrapped at some point in development. You were supposed to be able to combine spells to create unique or enhanced effects. I don't entirely remember the reason why it was scrapped, but I believe it ended up being too costly.
Also consider that Dark Messiah is not an open-world RPG. Bethesda barely got Skyrim out in a (somewhat) playable state. There's a lot of development costs to consider when making decisions like this. Could they have done it? Maybe. But they didn't and it seems to be working out for them. We'll see what they bring w/ ES6.
I didn't know I needed a Falconhoof shirt until now.
Barry's Nuka-Cola
RIP Benny Harvey gone but not forgotten
These thumbnails are a gift, thank you.
I LOVE the scaling system in new Vegas where you have elites that stay hard as fuck the entire game, it can be like a litmus test. As opposed to F4 enemies leveling with you simply feels less immersive for whatever reason. Just immaculate vibes coming from this absolute gem
I love it! I love it! I love it!
Josh Sawyer video, talking about Fallout New Vegas, with a Falconhoof tshirt? HELL YEAH
The power that comes from knowing how the game works is what gives most games replay value, imo. A first playthrough is for the thrill of discovery and challenge and what not, but your 4-5th playthrough is just comfort food. It SHOULD be easier.
I’m assuming the why Skyrim video you talked about was by Razbuten? That dude is great.
Yes! It must've been.
Meta Mastery can also be a curse, which is exactly why I made the Randomiser for System Shock 2. After 5-6 playthroughs, knowing where everything was is definitely antithetical to the intended experience of helplessness. Randomising item spawns while keeping the overall distribution consistent allowed the game to retain that feeling, especially since some of the hardest areas in the game also have some of the worst loot - something players wouldn't know on a first playthrough, but which quickly becomes important on future playthroughs when most players avoid these areas because they know there's nothing of value there. Randomising item locations in an open game obviously has bad connotations because it's been done badly so many times (Fallout 3 comes to mind) where the whole world feels like it revolves around you, but it's also a very useful tool for combating meta mastery. Some people may like that they can get a certain piece of armour early and steamroll the game, but for a veteran player just looking for a "normal" experience, knowing where good stuff is can be a real drag on the experience.
I'm loving your videos mate, huge fan of your work. Thank you for taking the time to make these.
The only time i ever really died in Skyrim was from falling.
It's definitely possible to die early on, like the first time you pick a fight with giants for example. It's just unfortunate that the game loses any of that level of resistance pretty quickly and never recovers it
Hey, pal. Just popping in to say thanks for your part in creating what is objectively the best video game ever made.
keep getting distracted by Limmy staring into my soul
After 1000 hours: no weapons no armor no healing no companions cannibalism-only hardcore mode run
I hope some day you're able to do a video/thread on your design philosophy behind characters, particularly Arcade Gannon. He means a lot to me, and I'll forever be thankful you wrote him as he is because at the time, I hadn't seen any characters like him whatsoever. Thank you for creating him.
FNV was my first and favorite Fallout game. I've played plenty of others, but NV had those deep storylines, high perk variety, memorable NPCs, and proper pacing difficulty-wise.
Got massive DPS? That deathclaw or cazadore are still going to massacre you in a few hits. It's that constant looming fear of mortality that makes the game. Being an unstoppable force is great until you realize there's no thrill in a fight being one-sided. The adrenaline pumping keeps me going!
Not to mention all the niche and fantastic crafts you could make with the various crafting stations. They added so much flavor to the game when you wanted to hunt for a specific ingredient.
Don't get me wrong, a game like Fallout 4 or Skyrim were great and all. But endgame combat always ended the same. I'd win the fight and proceed to eat everyone before going to the next. Kind of leaves a bit of bad flavor in your mouth.
Dude you gotta do these more! Always hoped you would do it after I saw Tim Cain doing it, you two rock. Also, hope it cools down man, no ac? Can totally get that
Josh's thumbnails are priceless, makes me giggle every single time
These thumbnails are getting creative😂😊 LOVE IT!
Fallout's trend towards difficulty has been slowly improving. It really started with New Vegas and the feeling that there's some kind of really difficult survival challenge waiting just beyond the grasp. Dead Money was difficult cause it wasn't just about health and weapons, and we all perceived Lonesome Road to really be that kind of challenge we were waiting for. Fallout 4 eventually got their own Survival Mode which is honestly a brilliant experience... All the way until lvl20 when you eventually do become overpowered regardless of any of your choices. And FO76 was sort of based off FO4 Survival Mode (which, in turn was also inspired by NV obviously). FO76 is actually mostly easy, but even with an optimized build there are moments where you have to stay on your guard, an in the quests there are a couple places I couldn't even beat right away, so there's something. This summer I've tried JSawyer mod for the first time after knowing about it for years and I'm honestly enjoying it. Although inventory management does seem to take about 30% of my gameplay time... lol
I like a system of "Normal" and "Survival / Hardcore".
You learn how the game works on an easier difficulty and then crack everything up in the "survival" difficulty,
that way you're forced to interact with more systems that may not be essential in the "normal" difficulty.
The only issue I have with this distinction is when damage values/other random features like the ability to save wherever are changed around to make the experience more difficult. I think survival elements that engage all of a games systems/increase player immersion should be considered/changed separately from more arbitrary challenge scaling like enemy health, damage scaling, or limited saving.
@@sieda666 But those are also counted under the "more systems". There is no reason to for an example use the carts in Skyrim if you can still fast travel. No reason to worry about beds and sleeping availability if you can just save wherever. This was known all the way back in ancient games where you had save rooms and limited amounts of save items.
And in a nutshell, this explains cazadors and the whole Sierra Madre, which felt like being continuously punched in the face.
Love the video, Damage threshold is underrated and helped a lot with Balance.
Ayy that Razbuten Skyrim video was great
Really loving the most recent stint of videos. Its great having good game design thought from storied developers freely accessible on the internet. I still remeber some early videos you did about Pillars 1 that had an impact when I was first getting into game development. Keep it up! Also thank you for your contribution.
it would be so great to see you and Tim in 1 video
Watching these vids knowing Josh is cooking up Pen2ment behind the scenes *huffs copium*
Fallout: New Vegas my beloved
Terrific thumbnail, Josh.
Man, I remember playing F:NV on release on the Xbox 360. I didn't have internet at the time, so I was playing pre-patch, so I had the ridiculously tanky Deathclaws. Those who know, know. I got the Abilene Kid BB Gun, and I was just screwing around and seeing how good my build was, and I was one-shotting BoS Knights with this BB gun while sneaking through the Hidden Valley Bunker. Was it a balanced experience? Absolutely not. Was it a good experience? Definitely, it's one that has stuck with me to this day. I have you and the fantastic team from F:NV to thank for this memory.
I love getting all this content from one of my favorite game designers, I hope you find motives to keep making videos where you talk about stuff! :)
It's a good day when Josh puts out a vid
Oh! Yeah! It is(!)
I'm glad to see a discussion like this given that I am still riding high on Baldur's Gate 3 and enjoy theorycrafting, but I feel like a lot of the discussion around that game is kind of poisoned by overpowered balance decisions that a lot of players defend by saying "well it's a single player game, who cares if x build completely trivializes content?" Which isn't even true, btw, for example just yesterday I responded in a thread giving someone advice for what to make to play with their dad in co-op who was planning to play a wizard.
Anyway, with regard to New Vegas balance, one of the things I have noticed over the years is that the mechanical demands of the players in terms of fighting is low, but the logistical demands are higher - that is, that the skill expression in the game sort of comes from a place of inventory management, which some people might find boring but is actually what I love doing. Things like, are you making good quality food, do you have enough handload ammo, is your gear in good shape? Are the questions that decide how you will do in combat compared to your ability to dodge or aim.
Love the insight and love to see more videos. Would listen to you while doing my indie game work any day lol
if theyve put 1000 hours over 12 playthroughs and are posting on your forums, as a game dev youve *probably* done something right.
Love the last bit. Being able to route out ways to become brokenly OP early in "open world" type games is one of my favorite things in gaming. It's something that really rewards understanding and mastering the game, and without external things like achievements or whatnot to try and "force" it to happen.
Good video. Around the 5 minute mark when Josh got a call and immediately started describing a castle surrounded by a moat, I was a bit confused, but still a good experience overall.
Great video. Joshua has a really soothing voice. Would love longer videos in the future about New Vegas lore, facts and development process.
uploaded right as yesterday's leftovers were warm, fantastic. glad to see more josh sawyer :)
Thanks for your work, and nice t shirt
Big fan of the Falconhoof shirt
I like to be challenged, but well-made and balanced challenges. As you mentioned, Skyrim is a game that I love and have played a lot, but the balancing when the game's difficulty changes was ridiculous. You would put it on the highest difficulty and horrible things would happen, like a crab killing you faster than a Dragon, hahaha. It was a balance based solely on blind scaling! xD
Deadfire has perfect balance in my opinion. All you need is knowledge of the game and you will be rewarded. You have several ways to deal with opponents creatively, and mechanically you can also create plays, like disengaging from an enemy attack at the exact moment the attack animation is coming out. Something like a manual dodge. Or simply knowing the enemy's weak point and taking advantage of it, for example using a simple Chill Fog to blind enemies at a distance and make them gather together, making it easier for you to control them. Another thing is "kiting", the act of attacking from a distance and running so that enemies can't reach you... I could spend an entire afternoon listing several ways to deal with opponents in PotD, but then the text would be too long XD
Anyway, when they say that games like Souls are challenging, I agree, but are they good for me? NO! I prefer more strategic, fun challenges that are less focused on reflexes.
I think it’s clear you made the right choice in new Vegas given the examples you talk about are still discussed positively. The cazadores and deathclaws near the beginning of new vegas communicated effectively that it was not the same as fo3/oblivion. It made the arc of your character that much more satisfying to be stomped by some bugs early on, and return later to get revenge once you’ve traveled the Mojave.
you are an absolute legend thanks for insight and creating truly magincianet worlds.
I enjoyed in Skyrim every town/village has the basics, an inn, blacksmith, trader, alchemist (or at least an inn). It meant you can just “settle” in a town. Like in Skyrim I visit a hold, go to the jarls hall and get the “area quest” and while I’m doing that I base myself out of the local tavern. It’s very different to nv where you aren’t really connected to a location, I would rent a room at the atomic wrangler but it doesn’t have the same feeling as arriving in a city as Skyrim. The denizens of free side don’t really live in free side and move about and interact with stuff, you don’t see the King Mick/Ralph in atomic wrangler after their stores close.
8:10 haha this describes exactly how I would spend forever modding the 3D fallouts, I always wanted it to feel like insurgency. It never actually ended up being an enjoyable experience though, because so many additional elements are required to add balance. Increasing ammo scarcity makes it feel weird when the AI has infinite, but making them spend ammo ends with them wasting it all and coming at you with a knife. Levels also become unsatisfying so you need to rework what the skill points and perks do. Then the armour doesn't feel realistic because the protection doesn't apply to the specific body part, e.g. I couldn't get a metal helmet to block head damage. The list goes on.
I wasn't a good enough modder to make what I really wanted because all I could figure out how to do was adjust values, but all the other mods out there that I could find just made the game too easy.
I think you got the balance on Fallout New Vegas pretty well done.
Just having heavy metal armor vs bandits in the early game and vice versa makes quite the difference.
Mid game the fiends can still somewhat pack a punch earlier with plasma weapons. While stuff like Ranger hit squads can get nasty.
Lategame it kinda pans out but at that point you have the tools to deal with stuff and the powerarmor. That said: Deathclaws and especially Cazadors are still a pain in the ass to deal with :D
That last after thought is super important. I've seen quite a few games change or remove a lot of fun powerful things in pursuit of balance.
New sub. 1) Pentiment is fantastic and I’m so glad it got made. And; 2) Having a New Glarus Oktoberfest as i watch… Wisconsin, bb!
The face at the beginning is everything
Hollllyyyy shit holy shit, thank you JE Sawyer, surprised to hear so much recently, all the red arrows and key-words had me stunned like a deer in headlights :3
holy shit your Limmy Falconhoof t-shirt LOL
Discussion about FNV? FNV remaster confirmed!
Limmy shirt, here we go! (Benny Harvey r.i.p., gone but not forgotten!)
I learned new vegas to a T now i can do any build so much depth with such a limited time to make the game and it shines to this day ❤
That last comment about how you can beeline stuff, that's what I love about games, be it Path of Exile, Civilization, Morrowind or New Vegas.
Oh... Morrowind, the beeline to Caldera's Merchant for Skills Founds, then the one for Vivec City for its juicy guards... for Skills Founds, then the one for the Vaults at Vivec for the even more insane Skills Founds and finally, the mastery beeline for the Daedric sites for those overpowered weapons. While even after this fun run, the game can still kill you on the spot of you get too cocky.
I must ask before I watch, is that a Falconhoof (of Adventure Call fame, of Limmy's Show fame) shirt? Very stylish.
I thought that was limmy too
Another discussion in the same week? I see this as an absolute win. B)
Personal subjective opinion: most RPGs have this problem for me where the beginning is nice, but the latter part is so easy that I'm just sleepwalking through combat which starts to fill more like a hindrance to seeing the end of the story than any fun in itself and I just want to get it over with. All the loot loses excitement too, because you don't need any of it. I want to start over but I also want to finish the story - and there's still hours of it left! And I'm not even a big minmaxer, I only pay attention to tooltips and explore a lot, that's it. From Fallout in 1997 to New Vegas to Tyranny, it has always been the case. The combat stops being fun waaaay before the story stops, and that's an issue.
The reason is probably what Josh mentioned: where the player is power-wise becomes a more and more open question the more the player is into the game. It's difficult to tune around that. The fundamental issue is the concept of levelling itself. The most balanced games either do not have levelling or it affects the player power much more subtly than in an average RPG. The bosses in Hollow Knight stay a major challenge even if you have a bit more health and charms.
surprised you didn't mention the JSawyer mod in this video! it's still popular to this day and supported by the modding community!
To what extent were the systems in Fallout: New Vegas inspired by Falconhoof's Adventure Call?
All of them.
Hallelujah! It's raining, Josh? ⭕
That Terry Davis look at the start lmao
1:52 Shocker /s. As a young kid, I almost skipped playing New Vegas because I was bored out of my mind playing FO3. It's a good thing that I gave FONV a shot and now I play it at least twice a year as an adult with crippling depression.
A guy at school told me about it when it was new. Shame I did not played it back then.
I enjoyed fo3 but I very much did agree with the sentiment of it being pretty much oblivion with guns. More of a sandbox than a game with a satisfying arc
@@user-ow1bc4sx2r People joke about it, but it was intentional by Bethesda that TES and Fallout felt and played similar. They settled on a common gameplay schtick and merely swapped the genres. I think it was during a Starfield interview video where Todd Howard mentioned something about it, but unfortunately I can't narrow it down to which specific video.
Two videos were so lucky
I realy liked the last part
I'm a fan of the 'reasonably challenging early game -> Powerhouse Endgame' difficulty pipeline. Especially when there's a lot of different ways to achieve that powerhouse status.
But what I really like to see in those games- and it's not something that comes up super often- are optional Superbosses or "Danger Zones"; stuff intended to be a challenge specifically for Level Capped, ground-out and optimized characters. New Vegas had a bit of that with the Legendary Bloatfly, Courier's Mile, etc. But that's what I enjoy most about Bethesda-Engine games and their moddability.
I would honestly see a podcast by Tim Cain and Josh Sawyer where they talk about developing games and also invite fans and TH-camrs to talk about rpg games and what people want out of future games.
When I played fallout NV I had two experiences. 1: Making my way first to the south west I believe, then relatively easily through the center, finding the brotherhood, that space launch site,the deathclaw pit, the bomber people(edit: I died to them, did not engage), that weird sort of violent gambling city, and I went in the city and defeated the guy I thought was the main boss. I basically did it bc the opening cut scene led me there, and the side quests didn’t grab too much of my time or interest I guess. after beating him I instantly didn’t care anymore and was fully disillusioned with the amount of game there was to discover and I quit.
2: The other time I was leveling up and tried to do a POI/quest that was down southeast, that was actually DLC (I didn’t know). All the enemies were OP compared to my meager leveling and I ran out of ammo and died. I was sort of hoping to discover better weapons there. Haven’t gone back to a fallout game for like 5+ years. I feel personally that games like Call of Pripyat were more immersive, intriguing, and engaging to me. But we all have different experiences
Can't believe you didn't do a pogging face on the thumbnail. EDIT: Also, regarding your final point on powerleveling, I completely agree. Kingdom Come Deliverance is one that comes to mind. An insanely obtuse and difficult game on your 1st playthrough, but when you start the game knowing where the best sword, armor set and horse ..etc are and beeline for them, it becomes much more manageable. That "powerleveling" experience is something I always love to do in RPGs.
Look out Tim Cain, there is a new chicken in the coup
great thumbnail and falconhoof shirt lol
I think by and large you did a really solid job with the DLC balance, at least as far as combat and enemy stats are concerned. I do think each DLC overtaxed different skills, but given the circumstances it was very well done.
Fallout New Vegas Dust mod is so good for being absolutely atmospheric along with being difficult in fun and engaging ways to the player
One of the most important thing to mention: difficulty creates immersion. Its like the world is built around the player to enjoy (easy games) or the player find themselves in a world to enjoy (difficult games). NPC is a content in a game (easy game) or a person in a world (hard game).
You're exactly right. When Josh was talking about the early game sort of texture of NV, what I thought about was how the first time I met Vulpes Inculta in Nipton I was actually afraid of him. Specifically because not long before it I had experienced firsthand that the dogshit guns and ammo I had weren't enough to armor pen the giant scorpions off the path from Primm to the Mojave Outpost.
More regular JE vids has me so happy
Love the Adventure Call t-shirt
Beelining to Navarro for APA takes all the fun out come onnnn
loving the Falconhoof T-shirt
Level one, with 9 luck and naughty nightwear, I clean out all casinos before I even talk to a single named character. AND. I. LOVE IT.
love your thumbnails recently lol Power leveling is perfectly fine.
I have New Vegas modded on PC. It's set up so I can get a hunting rifle and put a scope on it near the beginning. It's certainly not sufficient for Cazadores or Deathclaws, but it's enough for me to take on Lonesome Road. Starting with pre-order pack armor, I can sneak and snipe my way into the last and highest level DLC at around 9th or 10th level, to gear up for the rest of the game. I will still role play following Benny and Great Khans to find out more about them. I want the guy that shot me in the face! It's also a little peace of mind to find out about the other courier that backed out of the Platinum Chip job to try and get me killed. That's how I do it. Everybody have fun doing it your way.
lol you are the best! great topic.
Good vid, instantly subbed