I got the impression that the twelve were somewhat like Elidibus at the end of Pandaemonium. The remainder of the original person's soul infused with additional memories. Hence why they remembered us somewhat from Elpis.
Elidibus says that he is from Zodiark. Not a remnant of the person who became Zodiark, but rather a piece of Zodiark that's separated away. 世界の行く末について。たくさんの意見が出た。そんなことは珍しいから、委員会の皆が悩んでいた。 「だったら、エリディブスが手助けしに行かないと」そう思って。 ゾディアークからこぼれ落ちたんだ。 "There were a lot of differing opinions on how to tend the world. A rare occurence. The entire convocation was worried. 'In that case, Elidibus must lend a hand', I thought, and so I fell away from Zodiark."
@@Dojan5 At the end of Pandaemonium, Elidibus (Themis) says that his soul was plucked from the aetherial sea and he was made from it. He was what was left of Elidibus's soul after a primal was done with it combined with memories from the crystal.
I always felt like destroying a soul in a setting like this is a truly horrifying thing. It's why the Final Days were so horrible. Turning into a Blasphemy rotted away all the Aether of the soul, leaving nothing. So many souls gone forever.
Ehh.... that honestly stopped making sense after we get to Ultima Thule. If Meteon could just rot away souls into nothing, the Dead Sun for harboring them wouldn't have been needed.
@@wakkaseta8351 yes, I thinks that she uses Dynamis to trasfer people souls into the dead sun. no return to star = no chance to rebirth. but with Hope dynamys eather can return to lost worlds and life can bloom anew (as she says in the end)
@wakkaseta8351 as we saw in game not everyone turns into a monster. For those that don't, who die from other means she would need a way to keep their souls from being reborn.
Venat and all of their absolute sacrifice reminds me of my favorite quote (from Epsilon in RvB): "There are so many stories where some brave hero decides to give their life to save the day and because of their sacrifice, the good guys win, the survivors all cheer, and everybody lives happily ever after. But the hero never gets to see that ending. They’ll never know if their sacrifice actually made any difference. They’ll never know if the day was really saved. In the end, they just have to have faith. Ain't that a bitch."
That being said, in Venat's case, she knows who she entrusted the star to. She gave her soul while _trusting_ that her chosen would pull through. It's still a stretch of faith, but also a beautiful lesson in what it truly means to _trust_
I mean, with time travel now being a thing there's really nothing stopping anyone from preventing the Final Days from even happening in the first place. And even if it does happen, a sufficiently motivated civilization could hatch a project where they pluck every single Ancient from the past and give them refuge in the future.
I only really got one thing to add to that last part there. I think Hades would approve. After all, he said it himself. "Remember us. Remember we once lived."
I wish they hadn't pushed all the Sundering stuff to the Nier crossover tbh. Would much rather see this, along with other events described in the SHB short story for Emet/Elidibus, than the stylised cutscene we got of her.
Since the First's Crystal Tower is still connected to the Unsundered timeline, I hope we get to eventually go back there someday and spend more time with Venat and meet the original Ancients the Twelve were based on.
True!...But our WoL when they were still "Azem" was against the whole thing About Hydaelyn and Zodiark, because probably our Azem did not wanna see the most important people to them die just like that they did not wanna see Themis and Venat die just like that cus they were too important for our Azem.
I really truly want to see or learn about what Azem was doing/tried to plan at the time of the sundering. I know we aren't likely to get it, but still.
Thank you for explaining that the world is still, in fact, called Hydaelyn. Ive had a few people tell me that im wrong for calling it that lol. I guess people forgot that the first thing you hear when you create your character is Louisioux telling you the name of the Star.
I think there's a third reason as to why call it Hydaelyn istead of Etheirys, and that's because the source is "incomplete", as in it's still split between it and the 13 other worlds, so why bother keeping the name of the old world?
@@OMartinez91 there was another comment saying that they personally use Ethierys when referring to all the shards together and just Hydaelyn for the source, which i actually really like the idea of.
hold on a moment. then why after you defeat all of the twelve they say they will go to the lifestream to be reborn in later time? that would mean it's their real souls, and they were not consumed.
Venat probably consumed only a part of their souls, not enough to eradicate their existence completely but left behind enough for them to still be viable for reincarnation. Themis burnt most of his soul through many things but there was still enough of him to return to the Aetherial sea, after all.
EW Alliance spoilers The gods' talk about departure and meeting again on the other side makes it sound like they aren't just soulless creations of Hydaelynn but true Ancients that have done their job and are returning to the star
They're something new, different. They are not the ancients whom they were made after, but they're not something as simple as a Carbuncle. Much like how the Loporrits are more than just lil bunny people.
@@SynodicScribeperhaps something akin to Alpha; initially a creation but over time gained their own souls spontaneously, but made even more ‘real’ thanks to people praying to them.
I think thats fair. Just dont be one of those people who tells people theyre wrong for using one or the other lol. Some people are really uptight about terminology but dont wanna debate about it.
the only correction I'd make here; I don't believe Venat actually sacrificed her own soul for Hydaelyn. She remained so that she could be Hydaelyn's "heart", just like how Elidibus became Zodiark's. When we meet Hydaelyn in Endwalker, the game allows us to explicitly call her Venat instead of Hydaelyn. It's the same person in that Primal suit; just also backed up by the aether of the souls of thousands of Ancients. The way you presented it makes it seem like Venat was just one of the masses who's soul was destroyed forever, that Hydaelyn is its own entity entirely separate from Venat. I don't think that's the case, though.
You're right! She did become the core of Hydaelyn like Elidibus was for Zodiark. However, she herself says her soul wont survive. The Watch says she's gone, and side content also confirms her soul extinction as well. Venat may have been Hydaelyn's core, but she wasn't saved. Her soul was consumed alongside her allies.
@@SynodicScribeyes but using your fiends and reincarnations to make a power suit is different compared to jumping into a blender with them to become one being.
To spoil as little as possible, there is relevant lore in the endwalker alliance raids. If you want to know more about the Twelves relation to Hydaelyn then play those. If you have already, consider going back in your journal at the inn and reading any dialogue you mightve missed. I know some people just kinda skim/skip over stuff that isnt voiced, but the juiciest lore is in those bits.
It’s sad, sure. But it is a for sure thing Venat and her colleagues left behind something that won’t go away with their passing. And it’s quite beautiful in a way. Their love, their will, and their hopes.
This is a good video, though I have a few nitpicks. 1. Aether does not simply disappear after being used. It appears to follow the same principles that matter and energy do in real life, in that it can't be created or destroyed, instead being converted into different forms. Proof of this is the Twelve's plan to return their aether to the star: expending it in their battles with the Warrior of Light. If aether simply ceased to exist after being used up, this plan wouldn't work. With that being said, it's safe to assume that if a soul is somehow destroyed, the aether that comprised it will disperse and eventually become something else rather than disappearing entirely. 2. Whether it's possible for a soul that's been destroyed to eventually reform is somewhat ambiguous. When Elidibus sacrifices himself to send the Warrior of Light back in time, he explains that the Crystal Tower will "consume every last mote of [his] essence." This pretty clearly implies that his soul will end up being destroyed in the process, and yet he remains optimistic about the possibility of reuniting with his friends in the Lifestream. This optimism ends up being justified, as we see his soul again near the end of the Pandæmonium questline. Whether this means he was wrong about the Tower consuming all of his soul or that it did consume all of it but he somehow managed to reform afterward isn't clear. There's also the example of Ardbert's companions, who allow Minfilia to absorb their souls in order to stop the Flood of Light, yet are seen reuniting with Ardbert at the end of 5.0. 3. One of the theories about the nature of reincarnation that Montichaigne explains is that souls are possibly reduced to pure aether in the Lifestream but combine with other aether to create new souls. He says that he considers such a possibility to be equally as likely as souls remaining whole within the Lifestream. It's established that living beings who venture into the Lifestream run the risk of having their souls dissolved by the currents, so it's theoretically possible that this is the case for souls of the dead that linger too long in the Lifestream as well and that this is a natural process. Emet-Selch does describe his and Hythlodaeus' souls as "half-faded" after the Warrior of Light summons them in Ultima Thule. This could also be used to explain why some people manifest the Echo while others don't: people with souls that have remained more similar to those of their Ancient selves have a higher chance of having their subconscious memories of the Final Days awakened. This is highly theoretical, though, and is more in the realm of headcanon than actual canon. 4. The Watcher and the Twelve are not mere simulacra created from the lingering memories of souls sacrificed to Hydaelyn. During the Omega questline in Endwalker, the Watcher explains that he was created from the essence of one of Venat's companions. He even says that the companion was reborn as him. The Watcher and the Twelve have inherited the souls of their Ancient incarnations. Either Hydaelyn was able to avoid expending all of the aether in their souls and recreated them from what was left behind, or they were wholly expended but she somehow found a way to reconstitute them. It's never revealed how exactly Venat's followers were able to reincarnate despite their sacrifice, so it's anyone's guess. Is this copium? Possibly, but I think a good amount of it is supported by things we're shown in the text. I think that even if the destruction of a soul isn't always permanent, the act of sacrificing your soul is still one that carries a lot of weight, as there's no guarantee that it will ever reform at all, let alone into anything remotely resembling your old self. I started giving this a lot of thought back when Yoshi-P clarified that Venat's soul was indeed burned away and a lot of people interpreted it very negatively. I like to interpret her fate in a more positive way. As Hydaelyn, she was separated from the people she loved so dearly for thousands of years. When she finally found release and all that made her up dissolved into the aetherial sea, she became one with the star she fought so hard to save. She will remain at the side of her beloved children forever, because she is now the current of life itself. "In the soothing summer rains and gentle spring breezes, She will be with you always." If any part of her will remains (which could theoretically be the case since we hear her voice one last time after using the last of her aether to bring the Scions back from the dead), I imagine she is in a state of eternal peace and contentment. She went out on her own terms, and even though her fate may sound grim at first, this was her happy ending.
I rewatched the cutscene that plays after Thaleia, and I didn't remember this before, but there actually is an explanation for why Venat's followers were able to be reborn as the Twelve despite sacrificing their souls to create Hydaelyn. Fragments of what were once their souls were left over after the summoning, and Hydaelyn used them to recreate her companions as the Twelve, so they weren't created from lingering memories, but they weren't created from fully reconstituted souls, either.
@@mediocreindigo And now you see why they refer to themselves as constructs/creations instead of people. They knew what they were from the beginning. The ideas of Ancients who once existed from the discarded fumes of a consumed soul. Living legacies of things that no longer exist.
@SynodicScribe I guess it can be viewed sort of like the Ship of Theseus question in a way. Can the Twelve be considered the same individuals as their Ancient counterparts even though they only have a fraction of what was once their souls? Regardless of how someone views this, it is true that they are constructs meant to resemble people who no longer exist in their original form. How much of their personalities come from the soul fragments they've retained and how much came from Hydaelyn approximating what her companions were like isn't exactly known.
Scribe! I just now saw you made it on to state of the realm a few days ago! Congratulations man im pretty sure as far as the ff14 community goes theres no clearer sign that youre now one of big leaguers then that
I mean, not all hope is lost to the Ancients, even to those who were sacrificed to create Hydaelyn. With the ability of the Crystal Tower, there's nothing stopping a sufficiently motivated civilization from either preventing the Final Days feom even happening, or at worst individually plucking people from the past and sending them into the future.
@@Wanderingsage7 It's covered in the stories on their website. Their timeline didn't collapse after G'raha went to the past and prevented the calamity. It still exists, so it looks like we're in a multiverse. And if that's the case, there can be an entire timeline where the Final Days never happen and the Ancients continue on. Just gotta give Hermes some Prozac.
I mean, from another point of view sacrifice of people forming Zodiark is not any higher than that forming Haedelyn - sure, their souls survived but personality, memories etc., all that makes us human, did not. If I reuse wood of my table to make chairs that table does not exist anymore so the only difference is permamently lowering population number unless new souls emerge with rest being purely cultural.
We've seen souls retain personality traits. Clearest example would be Ardbert. Being from the same soul, we shared traits of heroism and adventure, which reflect the personality of Azem. I think it's also implied that actual Golbez was also a shard of Azem as he shared those traits(and never showed his face). Similar with Amon and Hermes. Both were researchers and had interests in genetic experimentation and suffered from nihilistic personalities. Or Loghrif and Mitron's feelings for eachother enduring through their reincarnations. We also see that memories endure. The fact that any sundered Convocation member's soul that the Ascians elevated to their former seat with their memories intact is proof of that. Or how the memory of the meteor shower is burned onto the souls of those reborn from ancient souls. New souls are made through natural means. In one of the stories on the site Hades clearly states that the Ancient's creation magic can make anything but a soul. And that a soul can only be bestowed by the star itself. But in that same story they mention a creation, I believe it was Phoinix, which possessed a soul as a fluke of creation magic. Or how Alpha was able to talk to us through the Echo as he apparently developed a soul. Then of course there is the whole Athena thing. But the point is that new souls generally occur naturally as new life is manifested by aether passing through the Aethereal Sea. A "gift from the star" as Hades put it. This is why not everyone who witnessed the star shower had the Echo awakened in them, because not everyone has a sundered soul of an ancient.
I think it's important to note that the ancients' culture saw death and reincarnation of the soul, minus the memories and such, as a normal and healthy thing. So, we could discuss whether losing the whole soul or just the memories are worse or the same, but keep in mind that the ancients saw the loss of the entire soul as a much worse outcome.
Isn't the Mothercrystal the aether she's "owed" as a primal? I was under the impression that, yes, she would never use it gerself, but she kept it anyway as a last hope.
Yup! While Hydaelyn was called the Mother Crystal by some common folk, in reality the Mother Crystal was an unimaginable stockpile of raw aether she'd been subtly creating over 12k years.
....Your use of the term "oblivion" made me feel extra sad about the triangle of characters I've been connecting in my brain. Minfillia, Ysayle, and Ryne. I am... just SO SAD RIGHT NOW. The way that oblivion was met by such... lovingly like-minded people.
I like to think that she like The 12 was able to move on to the astral sea. That a fraction of her soul survived and she can live on Sundered like the rest of us.
What is the difference between Venat and the Twelve's sacrifices, compared to Elidibus' sacrifice sending us to Elpis? Elidibus does say that this should consume every last mote of his essence. I always assumed for that to mean soul sacrifice, but we see him in Pandæmonium, that is to say, the version of him that sent us to Elpis.
Because that Elidibus is just the core of Zodiark I think. I think what happened with that one is the same thing that happened when the Ultima Weapon absorbed the three primals.
Given that Elidibus planned on reuniting with his friends and family in the afterlife, I don't believe he meant he was destroying his soul. Just that everything else would be burned up and therefore we wouldn't be able to communicate with him again or try timetravel again.
This is why Venat is my favorite character in XIV despite the odds, the despair, and her oblivion destined to happen, her love and belief in humanity never waver. Thank you for paying homage to her and her partisans.
@@SynodicScribe plus soken''s masterpieces "Your Answer" and "Flow" besides of "Answers" specifically in this expansion sets the fire on another level, the whole team behind all this created something that its not gonna leave my retina and of many others
Venat's soul-death being a sacrifice would imply that she valued souls to begin with and I'd argue that she did not. She misled her followers into sacrificing their souls to her and she knew that in the future the sundered becoming blasphemies would result in their soul death (as far as the WoL knew). She's also the one whose plan involved irrevocably tearing every living being's soul apart and whose backup plan involved abandoning every soul on the shards to death. They're acceptable costs to her so, no, I don't believe she held any particular value to souls, including her own. She accomplished everything she wanted and went out on her own terms, so where was the sacrifice on her part? The sacrifice came from the decimation of the Ancients, the 12k years the Song of Oblivion was sung unchecked destroying untold stars while she waited for the WoL, and the shards that were obliterated in order to make that happen. There is no cost to life or souls that is too much for her. Personally, I'm glad the game is calling the star Etheirys because I don't believe Hydaelyn should in any way be celebrated. She is a textbook anti-villain that in any other scenario the Scions would've thoroughly condemned, in fact, 6.0 is a glaring outlier that exists solely to spare her from facing any judgment. Her motivations and methods are antithetical to the game's values regardless of the outcome and, as others have mentioned, Athena is her direct mirror who is denounced by all, Ancient and sundered alike. The Scions put in the place of the Ancients would've fought tooth and nail against her sentencing of their species just as they did Emet-Selch. The only difference is Venat "won" and it turns out the Scions become hypocrites when the mass slaughter of innocents benefits them, so now history is written from that perspective.
zodiark apologist cringe. Any society that would commit genocide of a sentient species for vanity deserves to perish. The ancients were irrevocably rotten to an overwhelming degree. The fact that only 14 people in their entire society rebelled against the plan to commit planetary genocide repeatedly to make life easier for themselves shows how doomed it was.
Agreed. She burned through hers for one last duel. I seriously doubt she wanted to come back into the world she made where she introduced war, famine, r8pe, disease and fruit fly life spans.
I am curious. Were the souls of the people used to summon Shinryu consumed in that summoning in a similar fashion? Or was it closer to the way Zodiark was summoned?
No, from what we understand, only the souls that made up Hydaelyn made the ultimate sacrifice. Any other aether/souls that made up other primals were freed upon their defeat.
Great video as always! The hardest hitting moment for me in the 6.0 MSQ was the post 89 trial. You can choose the dialogue option "We will find our way Venat" and she cries before truly leaving. It was a direct response to the conversation you have in Elpis : "And amidst it all a people. Beacons of light and life. Laughter that warmed my heart like naught else before. They are my meaning and my purpose. My love. And so long as they need help, I cannot return to the star. Perhaps my future self is still waiting for it. The moment she can let go and walk unto the end... Safe in the knowledge that man will find his own way." The sacrifice that Hydaelyn and her followers made was not glamourous, but it was made in the attempt to preserve life moving forward.
I like to think that Venat knew we succeeded. She was with us all the way up until we brought back the Scions, when the last of her power dissipated from the Crystal of Azem. "May you ever walk in the Light", she said...and then the last of her soul was gone. She knew then that, having broken Meteion's surety and made a friend of Emet-Selch, nothing could stand in our way. At least...that's what I hope.
@@ReyciedMe too! I think just by us being there willing to sacrifice a sure bet with the moon arc in a very slim chance of hope of beating Meteion was all she needed. It was proof that even sundered mankind can make those steps towards hope
Personally, to me, Venat's 'love' for mankind was that of an idealogue rather than true love. She saw mankind as the idealized version of themselves that existed in her head, and professed an admiration for and idolatry of that false idol instead of seeing mankind for what they truly were. How unfortunate for mankind that a time traveler came unto Elpis, carrying that one thing Venat sought for so long: Validation. The proof of her righteousness, her inevitable future godhood and stewardship of the Star that she wrested from the one who saved it.
You forgot the part where Venat knew that the final days were coming, didn’t tell anyone, didn’t prevent it and decide to sunder the star so the warrior of light would fix everything because finding another solution was too difficult for her I guess.
The events would've happened with or without the knowledge. Call it fate or destiny, but it's true. If the Crystal Exarch never invader our timeline, the WoL dies, meaning we never would've traveled back in time to see Elpis. And yet, Venat and her allies still made the sacrifice without any knowledge. The devs kinda wrote themselves into a corner on that one. haha
@@SynodicScribe yes but by making it a timeloop, which I hate btw, it means Venat knew about the future rejoining, the future death of thousands of people. She decided to split etherys in 14 parts to make everyone able to interact with dynamis. But half of those people would die since she decided to let Emet and co alive. Plus since now the warrior of light is like 8/14 rejoined, how much Venat thought about our ability to interact with dynamis if with each rejoining we are less and less able to ? Also even the ancients couldn’t Interact with dynamis, at least they could create creature that can (why not creating a new meteion that is not a hive-mind to protect the star???), and they didn’t turn into blasphemy, their creations did, not them. In the better sunder world, souls were destroyed by the final days, not during the ancient time. Was it good in that case to be able to use dynamis if in the simple case of stress you are erased forever? Like Venat knew all of that since her memory wasn’t erased, so it makes her look like an elitist who choose which race is the better and deserve the right to live and not a solution to counter Zodiark. And even though all of this, we have to keep in mind that after the beginning of the final days Venat asked people to just accept death and moving on which I get, but like nobody knew the cause of the final days except her. For what we know, the ancients could just have been thinking that the star was ill or something like that. Not that it was attack and the only was to protecting it was to speak our feeling and accept sadness in our life. Like she could have prevent all of this sorrow by just explaining to everyone with the echo, what was gonna happen, you know to prepare everyone. In endwalker we saw her asking around her people to accept death, but like, during the end of the world, maybe it’s not the best time for it? You could have prepare everyone Venat… my biggest problem here, is the game is portraying the sundering like an inevitable act to save the world, but right now, I see at least a dozen other way to save the star instead of creating a new race to replace the ancients. They could have explain a lot more to make sense to the sundering, maybe Hermes had a special power so is was the only one to be able to make meteions, so not everybody could have made a better one? Maybe Venat saw a future without the sundering from a call from the star (who knows), and she saw that in 100 years, the creation magic was in reality the blood of the star and by using it this much, the star is condemned. Or again, maybe Venat fought Zodiark and by accident she sealed him and the sundering occurred by accident. The writers could have choose many other way to tell us what happened and they chose Venat knowing everything, didn’t do much, sunder everyone because the sundered are a way better race to fight Meteion. Endwalker just ruined Hydealyn’s characterization to me.
I was always a little confused as to how the final days for the ancients differed from the one we experienced. Our final days was dynamis causing people that gave in to despair to transform into blasphemies but it was the creations of the ancients that started turning for them, correct? I guess theres just a piece of info here that is causing me to not understand.
I can't remember where in the story it's mentioned, but I do recall the explanation for that is because the ancients were more aether dense than the sundered souls we have now. As a result, the dyanmis wasn't strong enough to affect them, but was able to affect their less aether dense creations. Since the sundered souls we have now are also less aether dense, we are susceptible to being transformed by dynamis, with despair being the catalyst.
@@Gofr5 brilliant, makes perfect sense, that's the piece i was missing. Thanks! But cannyounalsonrefresh my.memory on how the methionine stuff led to other creations succumbing to the blasphemy? It was just her influence after joining the other metions over dynamis in general I suppose
The Ancients were aether dense. So instead of them, it took control of their magic and subconsciously made these creatures from their darkest fears and terror. People who succumbed to the same emotions in the present, it would affect them instead.
Thanks for pointing this out. A lot of the comments here make me seriously think that a pretty good chunk of the fanbase is braindead; Endwalker makes it pretty clear that Venat's whole point in the story is to help fight Meteion, but the amount of people that ignore that and say that she's just a genocidal psycho is insane. It gets made clear that she certainly feels guilty about what had happened, and that it paints her fight as assisted suicide, in a way. What she did was messed up, there's no questioning; thing is, it was to try an actually give the world a future. It gets made clear that the Ancients were either too stuck in the past - or Tempered by Zodiark - to be able to fight Meteion, and that the Sundering was basically a very risky plan to try and prepare humanity to be able to deal with Dynamis. The game makes it abundantly clear, and yet so many people ignore it...
The Ancients were flawed as anyone. Hades, Hermes, Venat. Each of them did what they believed to be “just”. None of them is without sin for their actions.
Hi, braindead fan here! While, yes, it is pretty clear that Venat did what she did to help fight Meteion, what the story absolutely does not make clear is that she tried literally anything else. If you want to give her the benefit of the doubt, sure I guess you can image she tried and failed all sorts of other routes, but she already doesn't have my trust for lying to us for 3+ expansions so you'll have to forgive me for not assuming the best of her. I can't speak for anyone else, but I certainly don't ignore the reasons why she did what she did. It's that there is no good excuse for what she did. She had no right to make that decision. The Sundering was tantamount to eugenics and genocide, and I just can't accept that that was the only solution. Honestly, with how much Endwalker did to try and humanize the Ancients, I find it disheartening that so many people still think that they either deserved their fate or were acceptable collateral damage.
@@TaraTheRedMage Like I said in another post below; it was just a really, really bad situation all around, and if no one acted, then there wouldn't be a future for... well, anyone. The issue is that the Ancients just couldn't do anything against Meteion, which, unfortunately, meant that SOMETHING had to be done. The fact that it's implied that the Ancients were Tempered by Zodiark - like Emet mentions in Shb - also VERY likely contributed to the failure to adapt to the Final Days. I do agree that Venat's actions leading up to the Sundering aren't explained properly; her narration does indicate that she at least tried to convince the followers of Zodiark that there were other options, but that scene was clearly shortened for time - the fact that Endwalker was originally meant to be two expansions doesn't help. There's also the matter that said scenes do contradict/leave out pieces of information shown in both Shadowbringers and Endwalker, such as her dialogue with the 12 members of her faction, as well as her conversations with Azem. So, I don't exactly blame you for being mistrustful. For what it's worth; I have heard some rumors that the devs MIGHT be trying sometime in the future to clear up some of the confusion/plot holes, like what they did with The Vault. Fingers crossed, as I personally wouldn't mind seeing that scene cleared up myself.
@@Peashooter521 Again, bad situation with no good, clean outcome. And again, it's not like Venat didn't feel guilty, nor did she go through all of this unscathed; the level 89 cutscene made it clear she was suffering right alongside them.
Is this why I cried for an hour finishing the Myths of the Realm storyline? ToT (Having met some of those who became the Twelve in the side quests in Elpis made it worse)
Something that's kind of amiss here is the parallels one can draw to Buddhism. The life-stream perpetuates an endless cycle of life and death, in Buddhism this is called Samsara, (輪廻, rinne). The first truth of Buddhism is duhkha (苦), often translated as suffering, but rather more embodies unease at being incomplete, driven by craving and ignorance. The most prominent example of this is Hermes, but all the Ascians do in their own way. The general goal is to achieve enlightenment and become free from the cycle of life and death, Samsara, and to do so you need to accept and know the four great truths. When the End of Days came, the Ancients faced involuntary death for the first time as far as anyone could remember. Venes says "It was the first pain they ever felt, and it was unbearable. It shackled their hearts to the resplendent days when none knew of it." She asks her brethren to accept suffering as a constant companion, to engrave it upon their hearts and walk on, but they refuse. They long for their days of ignorance, and so they beseech Zodiark to absolve them from it and return them to the days already lost. Venes however, accepts duhkha, she sees, and understands, and in creating Hydelin, she breaks free from Samsara and becomes quite literally Enlightened. She reaches Nirvana. The idea that the soul is something inviolable and permanent comes from Abrahamic religions, there's no such thing in Buddhism. Venes became Hydelin. Hydelin still has the memories and experiences of Venes, but she isn't Venes.
Venat/Hydaelyn is more of a rogue element than a positive figure. There are many reasons to criticize her. Her argument that suffering needs to be a companion is flawed when considering other beings and the inaccurate portrayal of dead ends. The implication is that being susceptible to Dynamis corruption is worse than death, as it erases everything, including the soul. I wouldn't consider it positive for her to grant her cronies godhood. The shattered form of the star is unnatural and we discovered this in the latest patches. The star attempts to rejoin itself, but the watchers on the moons hinder its return to normal. Her arrogant claim of being the embodiment of the stars will is almost akin to Athena.
I wonder why she chose to die instead of living on and see the beauty of the world like Oschon did. When she stepped down from the seat and not return to the star, it gave off a sense of wanting to live on forever to continue seeing the world she loved so much. We knew that by the time we faced her in the mother crystal, she had already used up all her follower’s soul and kept her soul as a last resource in order to fight us. But why does she have to fight us? (Please don’t say that bc it’s the end of the saga.) It makes no sense at all in terms of the story. We’ve already defeated Zodiark who at that point was 7/14 rejoined with 75% of the ancients soul still intact in him (obviously much stronger than her single soul.) And her fight mechanic has nothing to do with dynamis at all. Why choose to spend her entire soul to fight us? After fighting her we still have no solid proof that we can fight Meteion. Actually, we got nothing from killing her. Spending her soul to the point where she can never be born again feels weird and not necessary at all. She was able to keep part of her followers’ souls and make them into the twelve. Why can’t she do the same to herself? Then after the fight, she can return to the star like the twelve did and wait for a new adventure, or she could form a new body like Oschon and roam the world forever. But no, she chose to end herself by using us. Even Elidibus as the heart of Zodiark was able to withdraw part of himself and continue to live in order to carry out his mission and finally return to the aetherial sea after his death. Or is it because she saw that mankind can finally walk on their own without her guidance so she can RIP now? But isn’t that suixide? I’ve seen fandom call it just that when the ancients choose to return to the star after accomplishing something. Then what’s the difference here? It’s completely go against her own character. If we can still live on we have to keep forging ahead. Isn’t that the reason why she’s so in love with her sundered children? So I wonder why she decide to do that. Her death is not necessary at all.
To become Hydaelyn, and give her the power she needed to do what she did. All of their souls need to be consumed in their entirety. Once Hydaelyn's power was exhausted, there was literally nothing left. She couldn't keep living even if she wanted to.
@@SynodicScribe I thought yoship mentioned that Venat used aether from her own soul to fight WoL. So at that time, if she decides not to fight then she won’t die right away, right? I mean maybe she can still live on for hundreds of year until her remaining soul is all used up. Then why not continue living but instead choose to end herself in a fight just like that? I also thought that their souls would be completely erased when I read the side story and yoship’s answer in lore q&a. But myths suggest that the twelve’s souls (aside from Oschon) all return to the star, so I wonder which one to believe?
The sacrifices made to summon Hydaelyn must have taken some courage. To know that you will never again see the star you hope to save with no guarantee that it will work. While the same could be said of Zodiark, that was an act of desperation, made with less clear minds.
That’s actually been a consistent theme throughout XIV in all their expansions, even in 1.0. Louisoix, Moenbryda, Minfilia, the Warriors of Darkness, and so on. All made their sacrifices with hope though they would never see it.
This reminds me of Churchs' sacrifice speach at the end of RvB season 13, they will never know if their sacrifice worked, if the day was saved, they just have to have faith. (th-cam.com/video/M5jM_mrOqec/w-d-xo.html )
I wouldn't say those who gave of themselves to bring Zodiark the Saviour into being were 'of less clear minds', personally. They knew what they had to do, and what it would achieve.
Well now I have a new pet peeve. "Thanks" being pronounced with a voiced dental fricative. I'm 40 and have never heard anyone pronounce it that way. I do enjoy your lore videos though.
Honestly she came off more like good version of Athena to me and overall anti villain you don't commit a genocide and still be called somebody who loves life. the fact that Yoshi p had to come out and say she was a "Good guy" speaks volumes on how people interpret her actions as amoral. Would have been better if her memory got erased as well but she stumbled her way forward like the rest of the heroes.
I mean. There's a lot of people that say Hermes did nothing wrong despite being the reason untold trillions of lives ended in the universe. So I'm not surprised people would paint Hydaelyn as evil. lol
@@SynodicScribe Well they're not painting her as evil. They're just being stark about what her actions resulted in, which is to say, wiping out the ancients and also sparing Emet by design, meaning ensuring the rejoinings would come to pass - entirely consistent with her aiming for timeline convergence. It's funny because Yoshi chose to compare her to SHB Emet when he made that comment... he described Emet as a villain in many interviews at the time. I guess she gets a free pass because of who she benefited.
@@lolcat5303 I can't fault people for those thoughts and the confusion that comes with it. I don't talk about it often but, from a lore point of view, the trip back in time to Elpis hurt the continuity of FFXIV more than helped it. xD
@@aSmolGoth Well then its funny how the 6.x patches have totally backtracked on this 'forge ahead' nonsense. Zero gets magickally returned to her proper form by Hydaelyn's crystal despite no prior evidence said crystal could accomplish this, the Nibirun dynamis clones are magickally 'fixed' and cured of their suicidal apathy through a few quick words from shitty moonbunnies (how convenient the one race that arguably deserves that second chance the most is too erased and soul-mutilated to qualify for the treatment), and Vrtra gets to have his sister back he lost eons ago with little to no actual consequences resulting of this. And then of course there's the 8UC timeline with G'raha and co. willingly risking the erasure of an entire timeline because they absolutely could not move forward without their precious Warrior of Light.... Seems to me the moral of Endwalker is that you can only 'reclaim the past' if Hydaelyn favours you. Edit: Oh, and let's not forget the revelations at the end of Myths of the Realm! The Twelve's ultimate goal was to *DIE* lol, one of the many so-called 'scary' facets of the Ancients Endwalker attempted to condition the playerbase into accepting so as to dehumanize them and retroactively justify Venat's act of genocide. But once again, seems if you are favoured by Mummy all the rules and stipulations do not apply to you. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Its hard to comment on this because of where the story is currently. But Im confused about the part where their souls would not remain. If you're up to date on the msq then you know what im talking about.
@@cheers2023 Ah. Like the video says. The 12 and the Watcher are not her allies. They're creations made in memory of them, possessed of the thoughts and feelings of extinguished souls. They themselves admit this on more than one occasion.
@@SynodicScribe The confusion that's happening is that The Twelve state that fragments of their original selves souls serve as the core of their being, and that they're returning to the star. Oschon and the others even state to each other that they'll see each other again after Deryk's life ends. *Cutscene #3 of The Heart of the Myth [Chronicles of a New Era - Myths of the Realm] The Watcher is a complete replica, but the writers are implying that The Twelve aren't. The full truth is probably going to have to wait until the release of the 3rd volume of the encyclopedia.
I agree with your closing thoughts a lot. The world we are on isn’t the same as the world populated by the ancients, not anymore. And the people inhabiting a place are the ones with the right to defuse its name. The citizens of the world call it Hydaelyn and so will I. Also think of it this way. No one is screaming that we have to call New York New Amsterdam instead because that was its original name. We accept that this is now it’s name
I think an important thing to remember is that Dynamis didn't exist as a written concept until Endwalker. Even in that expansion, it's mentioned so few times that it might as well be a footnote in the story in its entirety. I think the only reason it exists, as does Meteion and by extension Hermes, is to provide a loosely plausible justification to allow Venat to not look like a complete villain. Before Endwalker, the only justification that Venat had for sundering the star is because she disagreed with the convocation sacrificing other life on the star to revive the Ancients who sacrificed themselves to avert the calamity. The way she killed them after being rejected can only be described as an act of petulant spite at best and incredibly self-absorbed at worst, in the same way that she made Ardbert wander for 100 years as a shade unable to interact with the world. Was there really no other way to give the WoL a powerboost without making him suffer a century of isolation? It's a very unfunny "we've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas," sort of situation every time she tries to "fix" a problem, usually resulting from the consequences of her actions. Go back and watch the cutscene of Venat drawing her sword on the convocation and then sundering the star. Take away the music and you have the same scene as Sephiroth in Niflheim, except writ large on the whole world and then multiplied by 14. It's hard to understate how much the story bends over backwards to protect Venat's image when the black and white, cause and effect analysis of the sundering paints her as the primary source of all conflict across all of the shards. She essentially lobotomized and crippled the souls of all of her people, for reasons that can only be summarized as "tough love." Ironically, the game calls her the "Mother Crystal," but she ends up more like an owner of 14 ant farms rather than a guiding, constructive parent. That she would let the situation with Bahamut, as a for example, carry on for centuries (wiki says eons, but the timeframe is never really clarified) where Bahamut and his tempered dragons were kept half-alive in living torment is really unconscionable. When you get down to it, she's really just Vauthry with better press: controlling, vindictive, and, above-all, selfish. During the 10,000+ years she was alive, she only helped those she deemed worthy, and she otherwise let the resulting "children" of the shards she created suffer pointlessly to make some abstract point. Ultimately, the developers had to introduce Hermes failing to kill Metieon and then the concept of Dynamis to somehow salvage her character. Without those two story items, Venat ends up being just a tyrant that spends all her time in a castle made of stolen Aether, watching the disabled souls of her people (that she killed) die in agony and be reborn, over and over again, with different variations of each tragedy being played out across the shards. She's probably one of the worst characters in FF history, where the writers go out of their way to make her look good while she perpetrates evil. And before anyone says that the shards have periods where people can lead good lives, that's in spite of Venat, not because of her. Zodiark shielded the star from the calamity, Hydaeln broke the star to check Zodiark.
I have to say, every time i learn something new about Zodiark and hydaelyn, i can't help but go back to the thought process: They made Zodiark to buy time so they could eventually deal with the problem, people get mad that Zodiark is exactly what they made him to be...A temporary solution. So they make an even worse version of him and mess everything up and make it even worse for everyone without trying to deal with the actual problem...And somehow im supposed to believe hydaelyn was the 'goodguy' in this scenario. Naa, Zodiark did nothing wrong, and Venat had a hero complex. Leaving us to clean up her even worse mess.
To be honest, I never got warm with the name "Etheris" anyway... and it was irrititating sometimes how easily NPCs around us started to use the name. And if you think about it, the world cant be named that anyway, since Etheris would be the world as it was, as a whole world, not a shard among many (even if it was the Source). So, yeah, Haydaelyn still sits better with me... I'm not so sure about your tale about the Twelve... After all, in the alliance raid, we see them saying their farewells and talking about "returning to the Star"... This implies to me, that despite everything being told a fraction of their souls lives on. Which... to be fair, I didnt like... I thought, like you said here, they were "snuffed out" into nothingness after fueling their creation... To be honest, I didnt get warm with the conclusion of the raid story... When you quest in Elpis, the Ancients often talk about "gods". Hell, even Lahabrea mentions "the Gods" in front of Athena, telling her that the meddeling with souls is not for men but gods. I had hoped to get something along that line... Not that the raid story was bad, it was quite good... but I had hoped for something else ^^°
Hydaelyn did nothing for the 13th , 1st and countless other shards worst she created the situation that alllowed them all to perish. She only actively helped her "Brave little spark" and damned every single other person who ever interacted with her. The 12 did nothing for eons. But special mention to Halone for doing fuck all during the dragonsong war and Nophica claiming the spirits act "out of love". Lets not forget how they collectively ignored Lousouxs pleas for help when Bahamut emerged (Thank goodness he said "Fine I'll do it myself") their suicide pact unironically makes the world a better place and good riddance. I only wish Oshon/Derek wasnt suchba coward and commited to the action. Hydaelyn's permanant death is the perfect punishment for her actions. Yes she was ultimately proven right but alot of people died and suffered due to her actions. Its fitting that she only live to see a world of suffering and die never to see that world move past her cruel test and even better the ones who she wronged get to enjoy reincarnation. Personally, I'll call the star Etheris in remembrance to the Ancients who gave up everything to give the star a fighting chance. Not Hydaelyn for the vain Eikon who dare call herself a goddess.
You mean like Venat did when she gave her entirety so it'd have a fighting chance. Two sides for the same goal of preservation. Also, she never called herself a goddess, everyone else did. She hid and presented herself as the crystal for thousands of years. Yes, she did say "supreme deity", but never once used the term goddess. She didn't want people to worship her, she wanted life to continue and the future to move on, with what limited power she had. Power scaling in this game is a stupid concept. She legit even was acknowledged as weaker than Zodiark, and couldn't manipulate aether on mass like him so it's no surprise she couldn't do much for other places. Also, she gave Minfillia that cool ability to discipline light as an Oracle, so... Can't say she never did anything for the First.
@@ryu-kazuki698 Zodiarks barrier is what kept Etheriys safe for 12,000 years. Its those ancients trapped in agony that allowed the star to continue unmolested. Many would dehumanize (Including the god damned devs) them because it makes their mom/self insert look bad but they were people too who made the sacrifice to protect their home. Calling the star Etheryis is the least I can do rather than the Eikon responsible for their death. Hydaelyn is responsible for the sundering , she spared her controlled opposition in the form of Emet selch , Lahabrea , and Elidubus to form the ascians , she got Minifillia killed acting as her Orcale (Over the course of many years in the 1st as reincarnations) , and FYI she didn't help the first until it became relevant for her "Brave little spark". To add its more a translation thing but for the sake of clarity she took the title of "Will of the star"
@@Beathemighty We clearly played two different games. Because I don't ever remember anyone dehumanizing anything besides Emet and the ascians saying the sundered, Hydaelyn's product of life continuing without needless prevention of new life, which is what Emet wanted to use to restore the original sacrifices ancients... so he basically dehumanized the new unsundered Etheiryn life for the life of the past... Yes the barrier was a means to an end, but that's the reason Hydaelyn didn't kill Zodiark, because she even acknowledged the depth of their sacrifice. Which is why she didn't attack the ascians. Also you're not the only Warrior of Light in history, she did a lot in that time to preserve life itself. Either you really didn't pay attention, or you just have an unreasonable hate for someone who did the exact thing you're defending.
@@ryu-kazuki698 The most effective forms of dehumanization are when you don't even realize its happening. Case and point the EW sundering scene effectively reduces the Ancients to tempered thralls willing to throw away their lives like cattle for their blood God Zodiark in hopes of reattaining their paradise. You and the majority of the player base give no further thought to the collective humanity of Ancient people merely writing them off as a lost cause or at worst a dead end. This I would imagine makes swallowing the mass ethnic cleansing that was the Sundering more palatable as "there was no other way". In that cutscene their isn't a single named Ancient that interacts with Venat. All you have faceless NPCs ranting about paradise. You don't see Elidibus desperately trying to mitigate and resolve tensions , you don't see the star healed and bursting with Vitality , you don't see the countless suriviors desperately hoping to free their loved ones from purgatory inside Zodiark , you don't see people you see what Venat thought of her own people. Also your next two paragraphs contradict each other. For one thank you for acknowledging the acsians as controlled opposition and two who do you think the Ascians fought in the other shards prior to their rejoining? I'll repeat myself she brought ruin on those who interacted with her (Except her brave little spark!). What you call preservation of life was at best a token effort to prolong the inevitable. I shutter to think of how many WoL (OH hey Ardbert!) in the past fought an unwinnable battle spurred on in vain by Hydaelyns suffer and grow eugenics. Emet Selch was sympathetic but ultimately he was a genocidal monster and the game did nothing to suggest otherwise , Thordan was a religious Zealot (OH hey Halone!) who controlled information and spurred on a centuries long war for his own vainty , Illberd was a rabid dog who scarficed his own countrymen in a vain attempt to liberate his home. All three had motivations that under a certain light can be understood but we all knew they were villans. So when Hydaelyn performs actions that put all three to shame she's acknowledged as a "Herois" as the "Primal of peace" , as "will of the star"? To summarize she's grey but the story would make you think she's a Saint. No my friend my problem is I paid to much attention to the story and expected nuance the same way we had it in previous expansions. Evidently this was not the case.
She was only "proven right" because our creation was the only thing anyone attempted and we still would have lost had Zenos not been so hung up on us he flew to the end of the universe and helped us. So not only is there a failed timeline where her gamble didn't pay off and the WoL is dead. The timeline where we won was dependent on Zenos deciding the help save the universe so we'd hang out with him! I am sure had the Ancients been told everything she knew about what was to come, they would have been able to come up with a better plan that didn't put the continuation of all life in the universe on Zenos discovering the power of friendship. Maybe they could have built another bird to fly out and give therapy to the first bird.
I'm pretty sure Athena is what Venat was supposed to be written as until Yoshi threw a tantrum behind the scenes and forced Ishikawa to rewrite everything. I've never seen a more inconsistent character or how ridiculous the writing has been trying to bend over backwards to forcefully get across how "good" she was despite her being little more than a genocidal, deceitful witch who massacred her own race. No, being turned into sundered jello does not mean they "survived" somehow when all relationships and ties to their past lives were effectively severed. Except for her co-conspirators apparently. The most useless pantheon and most botched creation mythos in the entire Final Fantasy franchise.
@@SynodicScribe If it's the case, then it'll probably slip out at some point during a future interview. Much like they revealed that 5.3 was originally going to involve something very different and lead to a partial Rejoining.
That’s a great sacrifice to be made for the future to continue; for the greater good of the star. And also, that is a thoughtful notion to continue call the star “Hydaelyn” in eternal memory of not just Venat, but the countless others who continued to act for the star, not themselves and their vanity unlike the Zodiark-aligned Ancients.
Had 0 to do with vanity. The "Zodiark-aligned" ancients were trying to piece back their world after it had abruptly ended before their very eyes, something she added to through sundering (really: genociding) them as a species. Even the game itself does not frame it in terms of vanity. From the minstrel: "That the ancients should sacrifice half their number to save the star... The strength of their resolve makes me tremble in admiration." Without their sacrifices there would be no Hydaelyn plan and no star. Even she acknowledges, in the patch 5.2 scene before summoning Hydaelyn, that the Convocation was only trying to act in the best interests of the star. Fact is, we now know she knew they didn't have the full picture because she hadn't given it to them, or even her own followers, so probably realised it'd be awfully churlish of her to chastise them when she was not being truthful and they were acting on incomplete knowledge she did not provide them.
This is such an insane thing to read. The Star was named 'Eitherys' both to align with its inherent qualities of abundant aether (alongside its rightful stewards and original species) and to denote how its inhabitants lived to labour to offer improvements to the Star till they felt assured they could offer no more, upon which they'd gracefully embrace the long slumber. 'Zodiark-aligned Ancients' and 'vanity', talk about being completely inept in FFXIV lore. Literally nothing supports this idea, it is outright headcanon and misinformation.
I don't like Hydaelyn at all. Instead of preparing a solution to problems that she knew way in advance were coming, she goes "haha, have ten thousand years of suffering and misery, one of you will eventually figure it out"
Venat had to follow the timeline of the world we had told her of in order to keep the timelines merged. If she'd gambled the future on an unknown path, not only would she have risked not finding the right course of action, she would've left our timeline out to dry. If she hadn't followed the timeline the WoL is from, then the Hydaelyn we met would've been one who didn't meet us in Elpis, and thus didn't have the aetherial tracker on Meteion to navigate to Ultima Thule. Elidibus told us that nothing we could've done in Elpis would've changed our own personal history- if we'd made a substantial change, that timeline would've gone in a different direction, and we'd have returned to our time with nothing to show for it. Venat chose the path of history we'd told her about in order to save not just her timeline but ours, but in doing so, she had to act as if she hadn't received the foreknowledge we'd given her, to remain in step with the actions she took in our personal timeline.
@@monarchetypeemail3640 That feels like speculation, the whole reason the WoL tells Venat and co about the future is to try and change it. And sure, Alexander raid story ending suggests you can't change the past, but then also at one point you go back and change the past to save yourself from a big blast, and there's two versions of the same cat at once at a point so it's up in the air. Still a dick move to specifically force everyone into suffering cause to her that's what life is about.
I wish that with the reveal of Athena people would realize how terrible Venat is since they are basically the same character but framed differently. Athena wants to commit mass genocide to become a god, and Venat becomes a god to commit mass genocide. How does no one, especially the writers, pick up on this???
Yea Venat actions almost comes off as an extreme version of Darwinism as if your life has no meaning if you don't suffer and you should die if you're not strong enough.
I think more people should stick to saying "Hydalin" and not "Eythiris" because I just freaking panic when some dweeb says it out loud in an rp venue around my sprout friend. All it takes is one "What's that?" "I can't say" and she'll be like "hmmmmmmm." -_-;;;
It's stupid how one cutscene happens and suddenly everyone everywhere throws away what they know of their planet and decide to change its name to one they never heard of. And not like there's internet or global TV or anything to make an announcement, besides I've no idea if what happens in the deepest underground under Sharlayan would make it out to faraway lands like Thavnair. Like, why change it? Old Man Joe suddenly gets a psychic message while dozing on his farm that the world decided to change its name...
@@Max44321Lopporit Tribe spoilers:: - - - If you do the Lopporit tribe quests I'm fairly certain one of the final things is them setting up a radio station to basically call down (and back) from the star, and calling it Eitherys when doing so.. And while not everyone has radios (yet) it's pretty much a start to it becoming more widespread. Wether it would or should be accepted is another matter entirely, honestly I think Hyedalyn being the stars name is almost entirely an Eorzean concept anyway.
Well, Zodiark wasn’t at his full strength. There were at least 5 other Shards, after 7 Calamities, (if including counting the failed Rejoining/possible restoration of the Void) that survived, leaving Zodiark weak.
@@SynodicScribe Not to mention being able to sustain it despite being hacked into many parts like Osiris. Which coincidentally he was also split into 14 pieces.
He's reinforcing the celestial currents through dark aether, which requires him to actually be present, and like another poster said, he wasn't at full strength and was being controlled by a maniac. Even so, he's shielding the sunderinos for 12k+ years and is responsible for the planet and life on it even existing. Hmm nah, I'd class that as a powerful being.
![BOWKYLION - วิงวอน (ex-change) [Official MV]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/cLdnZWDaO-w/mqdefault.jpg)
I got the impression that the twelve were somewhat like Elidibus at the end of Pandaemonium. The remainder of the original person's soul infused with additional memories. Hence why they remembered us somewhat from Elpis.
They are, since they change themselves acordingly to peoples belief, like Dalamud being created by allag but being a actual companion to Menphina
We meet some of them in Elpis through yellow quests
Elidibus says that he is from Zodiark. Not a remnant of the person who became Zodiark, but rather a piece of Zodiark that's separated away.
世界の行く末について。たくさんの意見が出た。そんなことは珍しいから、委員会の皆が悩んでいた。
「だったら、エリディブスが手助けしに行かないと」そう思って。
ゾディアークからこぼれ落ちたんだ。
"There were a lot of differing opinions on how to tend the world. A rare occurence. The entire convocation was worried. 'In that case, Elidibus must lend a hand', I thought, and so I fell away from Zodiark."
@@Dojan5 At the end of Pandaemonium, Elidibus (Themis) says that his soul was plucked from the aetherial sea and he was made from it. He was what was left of Elidibus's soul after a primal was done with it combined with memories from the crystal.
@@25xxfrostxx So the Themis we meet in Pandaemonium isn't the one that goes on to become Elidibus, and later Zodiark?
I always felt like destroying a soul in a setting like this is a truly horrifying thing. It's why the Final Days were so horrible. Turning into a Blasphemy rotted away all the Aether of the soul, leaving nothing. So many souls gone forever.
Ehh.... that honestly stopped making sense after we get to Ultima Thule. If Meteon could just rot away souls into nothing, the Dead Sun for harboring them wouldn't have been needed.
@@wakkaseta8351 yes, I thinks that she uses Dynamis to trasfer people souls into the dead sun.
no return to star = no chance to rebirth.
but with Hope dynamys eather can return to lost worlds and life can bloom anew (as she says in the end)
@wakkaseta8351 as we saw in game not everyone turns into a monster. For those that don't, who die from other means she would need a way to keep their souls from being reborn.
Venat and all of their absolute sacrifice reminds me of my favorite quote (from Epsilon in RvB):
"There are so many stories where some brave hero decides to give their life to save the day and because of their sacrifice, the good guys win, the survivors all cheer, and everybody lives happily ever after. But the hero never gets to see that ending. They’ll never know if their sacrifice actually made any difference. They’ll never know if the day was really saved. In the end, they just have to have faith. Ain't that a bitch."
It's a hard hitting concept.
That being said, in Venat's case, she knows who she entrusted the star to. She gave her soul while _trusting_ that her chosen would pull through. It's still a stretch of faith, but also a beautiful lesson in what it truly means to _trust_
I mean, with time travel now being a thing there's really nothing stopping anyone from preventing the Final Days from even happening in the first place. And even if it does happen, a sufficiently motivated civilization could hatch a project where they pluck every single Ancient from the past and give them refuge in the future.
But you know it is not the end but the new beginning!
*Cue Armonia (feat. Orville Johnson)*
I only really got one thing to add to that last part there.
I think Hades would approve. After all, he said it himself. "Remember us. Remember we once lived."
the battle between zodiark and hydaelyn is somethong i would like to see (maybe as an echo flashback)
That would be badass. Kinda like the scale of Shinryu vs Omega, but even bigger.
I wish they hadn't pushed all the Sundering stuff to the Nier crossover tbh. Would much rather see this, along with other events described in the SHB short story for Emet/Elidibus, than the stylised cutscene we got of her.
I feel like we've got to get this eventually. There's no way they're just going to leave us hanging, right?
Dives into the Unsundered World always get my attention!
I'll likely do an entire video on Ancient Society and the Unsundered world eventually. haha
Since the First's Crystal Tower is still connected to the Unsundered timeline, I hope we get to eventually go back there someday and spend more time with Venat and meet the original Ancients the Twelve were based on.
You met 3 of them.
In Elpis
@warllockmasterasd9142 just because there's only three based in elpis doesn't mean others can't visit.
@@warllockmasterasd9142 this is a bti late but which of the 12 did we meet? I honestly dont' remember >
@@Nomolun_VrAlthyk and Nymia
Wait. I thought the first CT was connected to another timeline where we died to black rose
True!...But our WoL when they were still "Azem" was against the whole thing About Hydaelyn and Zodiark, because probably our Azem did not wanna see the most important people to them die just like that they did not wanna see Themis and Venat die just like that cus they were too important for our Azem.
I really truly want to see or learn about what Azem was doing/tried to plan at the time of the sundering. I know we aren't likely to get it, but still.
@@Wanderingsage7 I want to know too.
Thank you for explaining that the world is still, in fact, called Hydaelyn. Ive had a few people tell me that im wrong for calling it that lol. I guess people forgot that the first thing you hear when you create your character is Louisioux telling you the name of the Star.
Yeah. Etheirys is a cool name. But it's not the one the 'common man' knows in lore. haha
I like to use either name, since both names for the Star are technically correct.
I think there's a third reason as to why call it Hydaelyn istead of Etheirys, and that's because the source is "incomplete", as in it's still split between it and the 13 other worlds, so why bother keeping the name of the old world?
@@OMartinez91 there was another comment saying that they personally use Ethierys when referring to all the shards together and just Hydaelyn for the source, which i actually really like the idea of.
@@starofaetherius That is honestly a great idea.
hold on a moment. then why after you defeat all of the twelve they say they will go to the lifestream to be reborn in later time? that would mean it's their real souls, and they were not consumed.
Venat probably consumed only a part of their souls, not enough to eradicate their existence completely but left behind enough for them to still be viable for reincarnation. Themis burnt most of his soul through many things but there was still enough of him to return to the Aetherial sea, after all.
EW Alliance spoilers
The gods' talk about departure and meeting again on the other side makes it sound like they aren't just soulless creations of Hydaelynn but true Ancients that have done their job and are returning to the star
They're something new, different. They are not the ancients whom they were made after, but they're not something as simple as a Carbuncle. Much like how the Loporrits are more than just lil bunny people.
@@SynodicScribeperhaps something akin to Alpha; initially a creation but over time gained their own souls spontaneously, but made even more ‘real’ thanks to people praying to them.
They are ancients imo. Oschon tell their tales before becoming the 12
We can call the Source as Hydaelyn while including the shards as Etheirys since Etheirys is the unsundered star. Imo
I think thats fair. Just dont be one of those people who tells people theyre wrong for using one or the other lol. Some people are really uptight about terminology but dont wanna debate about it.
@@starofaetherius oh yeah lol people can do whatever xD
the only correction I'd make here; I don't believe Venat actually sacrificed her own soul for Hydaelyn. She remained so that she could be Hydaelyn's "heart", just like how Elidibus became Zodiark's. When we meet Hydaelyn in Endwalker, the game allows us to explicitly call her Venat instead of Hydaelyn. It's the same person in that Primal suit; just also backed up by the aether of the souls of thousands of Ancients. The way you presented it makes it seem like Venat was just one of the masses who's soul was destroyed forever, that Hydaelyn is its own entity entirely separate from Venat. I don't think that's the case, though.
You're right! She did become the core of Hydaelyn like Elidibus was for Zodiark. However, she herself says her soul wont survive. The Watch says she's gone, and side content also confirms her soul extinction as well. Venat may have been Hydaelyn's core, but she wasn't saved. Her soul was consumed alongside her allies.
@@SynodicScribeyes but using your fiends and reincarnations to make a power suit is different compared to jumping into a blender with them to become one being.
Lalafel do just fine without souls.
Wait…were the supporters of Venat the Twelve Gods and the Watcher? The Twelve Gods must have known also Zodiark and Hydaelyn?!?
To spoil as little as possible, there is relevant lore in the endwalker alliance raids. If you want to know more about the Twelves relation to Hydaelyn then play those.
If you have already, consider going back in your journal at the inn and reading any dialogue you mightve missed. I know some people just kinda skim/skip over stuff that isnt voiced, but the juiciest lore is in those bits.
It’s sad, sure. But it is a for sure thing Venat and her colleagues left behind something that won’t go away with their passing. And it’s quite beautiful in a way. Their love, their will, and their hopes.
This is a good video, though I have a few nitpicks.
1. Aether does not simply disappear after being used. It appears to follow the same principles that matter and energy do in real life, in that it can't be created or destroyed, instead being converted into different forms. Proof of this is the Twelve's plan to return their aether to the star: expending it in their battles with the Warrior of Light. If aether simply ceased to exist after being used up, this plan wouldn't work. With that being said, it's safe to assume that if a soul is somehow destroyed, the aether that comprised it will disperse and eventually become something else rather than disappearing entirely.
2. Whether it's possible for a soul that's been destroyed to eventually reform is somewhat ambiguous. When Elidibus sacrifices himself to send the Warrior of Light back in time, he explains that the Crystal Tower will "consume every last mote of [his] essence." This pretty clearly implies that his soul will end up being destroyed in the process, and yet he remains optimistic about the possibility of reuniting with his friends in the Lifestream. This optimism ends up being justified, as we see his soul again near the end of the Pandæmonium questline. Whether this means he was wrong about the Tower consuming all of his soul or that it did consume all of it but he somehow managed to reform afterward isn't clear. There's also the example of Ardbert's companions, who allow Minfilia to absorb their souls in order to stop the Flood of Light, yet are seen reuniting with Ardbert at the end of 5.0.
3. One of the theories about the nature of reincarnation that Montichaigne explains is that souls are possibly reduced to pure aether in the Lifestream but combine with other aether to create new souls. He says that he considers such a possibility to be equally as likely as souls remaining whole within the Lifestream. It's established that living beings who venture into the Lifestream run the risk of having their souls dissolved by the currents, so it's theoretically possible that this is the case for souls of the dead that linger too long in the Lifestream as well and that this is a natural process. Emet-Selch does describe his and Hythlodaeus' souls as "half-faded" after the Warrior of Light summons them in Ultima Thule. This could also be used to explain why some people manifest the Echo while others don't: people with souls that have remained more similar to those of their Ancient selves have a higher chance of having their subconscious memories of the Final Days awakened. This is highly theoretical, though, and is more in the realm of headcanon than actual canon.
4. The Watcher and the Twelve are not mere simulacra created from the lingering memories of souls sacrificed to Hydaelyn. During the Omega questline in Endwalker, the Watcher explains that he was created from the essence of one of Venat's companions. He even says that the companion was reborn as him. The Watcher and the Twelve have inherited the souls of their Ancient incarnations. Either Hydaelyn was able to avoid expending all of the aether in their souls and recreated them from what was left behind, or they were wholly expended but she somehow found a way to reconstitute them. It's never revealed how exactly Venat's followers were able to reincarnate despite their sacrifice, so it's anyone's guess.
Is this copium? Possibly, but I think a good amount of it is supported by things we're shown in the text. I think that even if the destruction of a soul isn't always permanent, the act of sacrificing your soul is still one that carries a lot of weight, as there's no guarantee that it will ever reform at all, let alone into anything remotely resembling your old self. I started giving this a lot of thought back when Yoshi-P clarified that Venat's soul was indeed burned away and a lot of people interpreted it very negatively. I like to interpret her fate in a more positive way. As Hydaelyn, she was separated from the people she loved so dearly for thousands of years. When she finally found release and all that made her up dissolved into the aetherial sea, she became one with the star she fought so hard to save. She will remain at the side of her beloved children forever, because she is now the current of life itself. "In the soothing summer rains and gentle spring breezes, She will be with you always." If any part of her will remains (which could theoretically be the case since we hear her voice one last time after using the last of her aether to bring the Scions back from the dead), I imagine she is in a state of eternal peace and contentment. She went out on her own terms, and even though her fate may sound grim at first, this was her happy ending.
A 'few' nitpicks? It's never just a few....
@@SynodicScribe I kind of went overboard.
I rewatched the cutscene that plays after Thaleia, and I didn't remember this before, but there actually is an explanation for why Venat's followers were able to be reborn as the Twelve despite sacrificing their souls to create Hydaelyn. Fragments of what were once their souls were left over after the summoning, and Hydaelyn used them to recreate her companions as the Twelve, so they weren't created from lingering memories, but they weren't created from fully reconstituted souls, either.
@@mediocreindigo And now you see why they refer to themselves as constructs/creations instead of people. They knew what they were from the beginning. The ideas of Ancients who once existed from the discarded fumes of a consumed soul. Living legacies of things that no longer exist.
@SynodicScribe I guess it can be viewed sort of like the Ship of Theseus question in a way. Can the Twelve be considered the same individuals as their Ancient counterparts even though they only have a fraction of what was once their souls? Regardless of how someone views this, it is true that they are constructs meant to resemble people who no longer exist in their original form. How much of their personalities come from the soul fragments they've retained and how much came from Hydaelyn approximating what her companions were like isn't exactly known.
Scribe! I just now saw you made it on to state of the realm a few days ago! Congratulations man im pretty sure as far as the ff14 community goes theres no clearer sign that youre now one of big leaguers then that
“Remember us. Remember that we existed.”
-Emmet Selch AKA Hades😢
I mean, not all hope is lost to the Ancients, even to those who were sacrificed to create Hydaelyn. With the ability of the Crystal Tower, there's nothing stopping a sufficiently motivated civilization from either preventing the Final Days feom even happening, or at worst individually plucking people from the past and sending them into the future.
And the 'failed' timeline of the 8th umbral calamity the final days have not happened yet as far as we know.
@@Wanderingsage7 It's covered in the stories on their website. Their timeline didn't collapse after G'raha went to the past and prevented the calamity. It still exists, so it looks like we're in a multiverse. And if that's the case, there can be an entire timeline where the Final Days never happen and the Ancients continue on. Just gotta give Hermes some Prozac.
Venat would probably murder them. She's really good at that
@@Beathemighty tbf, she nearly murdered us on accident with the spar. Also, death is kind of a slap on the wrist for the Ancients.
@@Beathemighty To be fair, wiping out entire worlds worked pretty well for her. They declared her a hero and named a planet after her.
I mean, from another point of view sacrifice of people forming Zodiark is not any higher than that forming Haedelyn - sure, their souls survived but personality, memories etc., all that makes us human, did not.
If I reuse wood of my table to make chairs that table does not exist anymore so the only difference is permamently lowering population number unless new souls emerge with rest being purely cultural.
We've seen souls retain personality traits. Clearest example would be Ardbert. Being from the same soul, we shared traits of heroism and adventure, which reflect the personality of Azem. I think it's also implied that actual Golbez was also a shard of Azem as he shared those traits(and never showed his face). Similar with Amon and Hermes. Both were researchers and had interests in genetic experimentation and suffered from nihilistic personalities. Or Loghrif and Mitron's feelings for eachother enduring through their reincarnations.
We also see that memories endure. The fact that any sundered Convocation member's soul that the Ascians elevated to their former seat with their memories intact is proof of that. Or how the memory of the meteor shower is burned onto the souls of those reborn from ancient souls.
New souls are made through natural means. In one of the stories on the site Hades clearly states that the Ancient's creation magic can make anything but a soul. And that a soul can only be bestowed by the star itself. But in that same story they mention a creation, I believe it was Phoinix, which possessed a soul as a fluke of creation magic. Or how Alpha was able to talk to us through the Echo as he apparently developed a soul. Then of course there is the whole Athena thing. But the point is that new souls generally occur naturally as new life is manifested by aether passing through the Aethereal Sea. A "gift from the star" as Hades put it. This is why not everyone who witnessed the star shower had the Echo awakened in them, because not everyone has a sundered soul of an ancient.
I think it's important to note that the ancients' culture saw death and reincarnation of the soul, minus the memories and such, as a normal and healthy thing. So, we could discuss whether losing the whole soul or just the memories are worse or the same, but keep in mind that the ancients saw the loss of the entire soul as a much worse outcome.
This brings a whole new level to the Lopperit tribe quests.....I'm not ok 😢
Isn't the Mothercrystal the aether she's "owed" as a primal? I was under the impression that, yes, she would never use it gerself, but she kept it anyway as a last hope.
Yup! While Hydaelyn was called the Mother Crystal by some common folk, in reality the Mother Crystal was an unimaginable stockpile of raw aether she'd been subtly creating over 12k years.
....Your use of the term "oblivion" made me feel extra sad about the triangle of characters I've been connecting in my brain. Minfillia, Ysayle, and Ryne.
I am... just SO SAD RIGHT NOW. The way that oblivion was met by such... lovingly like-minded people.
it does make me question what we see in the credits, with Venat walking with the other ancients
I like to think that she like The 12 was able to move on to the astral sea. That a fraction of her soul survived and she can live on Sundered like the rest of us.
I viewed it as symbolic - it is a passing of the torch, from the ancients, to the peoples of Hydaelyn as represented by the Scions
What is the difference between Venat and the Twelve's sacrifices, compared to Elidibus' sacrifice sending us to Elpis? Elidibus does say that this should consume every last mote of his essence. I always assumed for that to mean soul sacrifice, but we see him in Pandæmonium, that is to say, the version of him that sent us to Elpis.
Because that Elidibus is just the core of Zodiark I think. I think what happened with that one is the same thing that happened when the Ultima Weapon absorbed the three primals.
Given that Elidibus planned on reuniting with his friends and family in the afterlife, I don't believe he meant he was destroying his soul. Just that everything else would be burned up and therefore we wouldn't be able to communicate with him again or try timetravel again.
I gonnna cry
May i know how you can return to the restricted area of the Noumene ?
I'm not. I simply made sure to record myself doing a variety of things there before leaving.
amazing job
Thank you ^^
This is why Venat is my favorite character in XIV despite the odds, the despair, and her oblivion destined to happen, her love and belief in humanity never waver.
Thank you for paying homage to her and her partisans.
The time we dual her in Elpis will always be one of my favorite moments in FFXIV. Such a hype interaction!
Venat is permanently dead as in she won’t even be reborn 😢
But not forgotten hopefully.
@@acgearsandarms1343 this isn’t kingdom hearts
@@madambutterfly1997 Of course not. It has a more coherent plot.
@@madambutterfly1997 ?? so?, she shall be remembered for the rest of the plot.
@@acgearsandarms1343 don’t let Nomura hear you say that 🤣
hydaelyn's sacrifice its the truest and most impactful sacrifice i've ever seen in any lore.
It hits hard for sure.
@@SynodicScribe plus soken''s masterpieces "Your Answer" and "Flow" besides of "Answers" specifically in this expansion sets the fire on another level, the whole team behind all this created something that its not gonna leave my retina and of many others
Venat's soul-death being a sacrifice would imply that she valued souls to begin with and I'd argue that she did not. She misled her followers into sacrificing their souls to her and she knew that in the future the sundered becoming blasphemies would result in their soul death (as far as the WoL knew). She's also the one whose plan involved irrevocably tearing every living being's soul apart and whose backup plan involved abandoning every soul on the shards to death. They're acceptable costs to her so, no, I don't believe she held any particular value to souls, including her own. She accomplished everything she wanted and went out on her own terms, so where was the sacrifice on her part? The sacrifice came from the decimation of the Ancients, the 12k years the Song of Oblivion was sung unchecked destroying untold stars while she waited for the WoL, and the shards that were obliterated in order to make that happen. There is no cost to life or souls that is too much for her.
Personally, I'm glad the game is calling the star Etheirys because I don't believe Hydaelyn should in any way be celebrated. She is a textbook anti-villain that in any other scenario the Scions would've thoroughly condemned, in fact, 6.0 is a glaring outlier that exists solely to spare her from facing any judgment. Her motivations and methods are antithetical to the game's values regardless of the outcome and, as others have mentioned, Athena is her direct mirror who is denounced by all, Ancient and sundered alike. The Scions put in the place of the Ancients would've fought tooth and nail against her sentencing of their species just as they did Emet-Selch. The only difference is Venat "won" and it turns out the Scions become hypocrites when the mass slaughter of innocents benefits them, so now history is written from that perspective.
zodiark apologist cringe.
Any society that would commit genocide of a sentient species for vanity deserves to perish. The ancients were irrevocably rotten to an overwhelming degree. The fact that only 14 people in their entire society rebelled against the plan to commit planetary genocide repeatedly to make life easier for themselves shows how doomed it was.
Sadly, as it always turns out to be, it's not about who is right. It's about who is left.
Ah I see the critics from the official forums have arrived.
Agreed. She burned through hers for one last duel. I seriously doubt she wanted to come back into the world she made where she introduced war, famine, r8pe, disease and fruit fly life spans.
@@KitsuneRogue The victor shall write the tale, and the vanquished become its villain.
I am curious. Were the souls of the people used to summon Shinryu consumed in that summoning in a similar fashion? Or was it closer to the way Zodiark was summoned?
No, from what we understand, only the souls that made up Hydaelyn made the ultimate sacrifice. Any other aether/souls that made up other primals were freed upon their defeat.
Great video as always! The hardest hitting moment for me in the 6.0 MSQ was the post 89 trial. You can choose the dialogue option "We will find our way Venat" and she cries before truly leaving. It was a direct response to the conversation you have in Elpis :
"And amidst it all a people. Beacons of light and life. Laughter that warmed my heart like naught else before. They are my meaning and my purpose. My love. And so long as they need help, I cannot return to the star. Perhaps my future self is still waiting for it. The moment she can let go and walk unto the end... Safe in the knowledge that man will find his own way."
The sacrifice that Hydaelyn and her followers made was not glamourous, but it was made in the attempt to preserve life moving forward.
I like to think that Venat knew we succeeded. She was with us all the way up until we brought back the Scions, when the last of her power dissipated from the Crystal of Azem. "May you ever walk in the Light", she said...and then the last of her soul was gone. She knew then that, having broken Meteion's surety and made a friend of Emet-Selch, nothing could stand in our way. At least...that's what I hope.
@@ReyciedMe too! I think just by us being there willing to sacrifice a sure bet with the moon arc in a very slim chance of hope of beating Meteion was all she needed. It was proof that even sundered mankind can make those steps towards hope
Personally, to me, Venat's 'love' for mankind was that of an idealogue rather than true love. She saw mankind as the idealized version of themselves that existed in her head, and professed an admiration for and idolatry of that false idol instead of seeing mankind for what they truly were. How unfortunate for mankind that a time traveler came unto Elpis, carrying that one thing Venat sought for so long: Validation. The proof of her righteousness, her inevitable future godhood and stewardship of the Star that she wrested from the one who saved it.
When you believe in reincarnation on our own Star
You forgot the part where Venat knew that the final days were coming, didn’t tell anyone, didn’t prevent it and decide to sunder the star so the warrior of light would fix everything because finding another solution was too difficult for her I guess.
The events would've happened with or without the knowledge. Call it fate or destiny, but it's true.
If the Crystal Exarch never invader our timeline, the WoL dies, meaning we never would've traveled back in time to see Elpis. And yet, Venat and her allies still made the sacrifice without any knowledge.
The devs kinda wrote themselves into a corner on that one. haha
@@SynodicScribe yes but by making it a timeloop, which I hate btw, it means Venat knew about the future rejoining, the future death of thousands of people. She decided to split etherys in 14 parts to make everyone able to interact with dynamis. But half of those people would die since she decided to let Emet and co alive. Plus since now the warrior of light is like 8/14 rejoined, how much Venat thought about our ability to interact with dynamis if with each rejoining we are less and less able to ? Also even the ancients couldn’t Interact with dynamis, at least they could create creature that can (why not creating a new meteion that is not a hive-mind to protect the star???), and they didn’t turn into blasphemy, their creations did, not them. In the better sunder world, souls were destroyed by the final days, not during the ancient time. Was it good in that case to be able to use dynamis if in the simple case of stress you are erased forever? Like Venat knew all of that since her memory wasn’t erased, so it makes her look like an elitist who choose which race is the better and deserve the right to live and not a solution to counter Zodiark. And even though all of this, we have to keep in mind that after the beginning of the final days Venat asked people to just accept death and moving on which I get, but like nobody knew the cause of the final days except her. For what we know, the ancients could just have been thinking that the star was ill or something like that. Not that it was attack and the only was to protecting it was to speak our feeling and accept sadness in our life. Like she could have prevent all of this sorrow by just explaining to everyone with the echo, what was gonna happen, you know to prepare everyone. In endwalker we saw her asking around her people to accept death, but like, during the end of the world, maybe it’s not the best time for it? You could have prepare everyone Venat… my biggest problem here, is the game is portraying the sundering like an inevitable act to save the world, but right now, I see at least a dozen other way to save the star instead of creating a new race to replace the ancients. They could have explain a lot more to make sense to the sundering, maybe Hermes had a special power so is was the only one to be able to make meteions, so not everybody could have made a better one? Maybe Venat saw a future without the sundering from a call from the star (who knows), and she saw that in 100 years, the creation magic was in reality the blood of the star and by using it this much, the star is condemned. Or again, maybe Venat fought Zodiark and by accident she sealed him and the sundering occurred by accident. The writers could have choose many other way to tell us what happened and they chose Venat knowing everything, didn’t do much, sunder everyone because the sundered are a way better race to fight Meteion.
Endwalker just ruined Hydealyn’s characterization to me.
@@NockLegacy Endwalker, for all it's high points, did mess up a lot of lore. More than any other expansion. I can't deny you there. lol
I was always a little confused as to how the final days for the ancients differed from the one we experienced. Our final days was dynamis causing people that gave in to despair to transform into blasphemies but it was the creations of the ancients that started turning for them, correct? I guess theres just a piece of info here that is causing me to not understand.
I can't remember where in the story it's mentioned, but I do recall the explanation for that is because the ancients were more aether dense than the sundered souls we have now. As a result, the dyanmis wasn't strong enough to affect them, but was able to affect their less aether dense creations. Since the sundered souls we have now are also less aether dense, we are susceptible to being transformed by dynamis, with despair being the catalyst.
@@Gofr5 brilliant, makes perfect sense, that's the piece i was missing. Thanks! But cannyounalsonrefresh my.memory on how the methionine stuff led to other creations succumbing to the blasphemy? It was just her influence after joining the other metions over dynamis in general I suppose
@@Gofr5Yes
The Ancients were aether dense. So instead of them, it took control of their magic and subconsciously made these creatures from their darkest fears and terror. People who succumbed to the same emotions in the present, it would affect them instead.
Thanks for pointing this out. A lot of the comments here make me seriously think that a pretty good chunk of the fanbase is braindead; Endwalker makes it pretty clear that Venat's whole point in the story is to help fight Meteion, but the amount of people that ignore that and say that she's just a genocidal psycho is insane. It gets made clear that she certainly feels guilty about what had happened, and that it paints her fight as assisted suicide, in a way.
What she did was messed up, there's no questioning; thing is, it was to try an actually give the world a future. It gets made clear that the Ancients were either too stuck in the past - or Tempered by Zodiark - to be able to fight Meteion, and that the Sundering was basically a very risky plan to try and prepare humanity to be able to deal with Dynamis. The game makes it abundantly clear, and yet so many people ignore it...
The Ancients were flawed as anyone. Hades, Hermes, Venat. Each of them did what they believed to be “just”. None of them is without sin for their actions.
Hi, braindead fan here! While, yes, it is pretty clear that Venat did what she did to help fight Meteion, what the story absolutely does not make clear is that she tried literally anything else. If you want to give her the benefit of the doubt, sure I guess you can image she tried and failed all sorts of other routes, but she already doesn't have my trust for lying to us for 3+ expansions so you'll have to forgive me for not assuming the best of her.
I can't speak for anyone else, but I certainly don't ignore the reasons why she did what she did. It's that there is no good excuse for what she did. She had no right to make that decision. The Sundering was tantamount to eugenics and genocide, and I just can't accept that that was the only solution. Honestly, with how much Endwalker did to try and humanize the Ancients, I find it disheartening that so many people still think that they either deserved their fate or were acceptable collateral damage.
@@TaraTheRedMage Like I said in another post below; it was just a really, really bad situation all around, and if no one acted, then there wouldn't be a future for... well, anyone. The issue is that the Ancients just couldn't do anything against Meteion, which, unfortunately, meant that SOMETHING had to be done. The fact that it's implied that the Ancients were Tempered by Zodiark - like Emet mentions in Shb - also VERY likely contributed to the failure to adapt to the Final Days.
I do agree that Venat's actions leading up to the Sundering aren't explained properly; her narration does indicate that she at least tried to convince the followers of Zodiark that there were other options, but that scene was clearly shortened for time - the fact that Endwalker was originally meant to be two expansions doesn't help. There's also the matter that said scenes do contradict/leave out pieces of information shown in both Shadowbringers and Endwalker, such as her dialogue with the 12 members of her faction, as well as her conversations with Azem. So, I don't exactly blame you for being mistrustful.
For what it's worth; I have heard some rumors that the devs MIGHT be trying sometime in the future to clear up some of the confusion/plot holes, like what they did with The Vault. Fingers crossed, as I personally wouldn't mind seeing that scene cleared up myself.
@@Kingsman88115 she also created the shards to be disposable.
@@Peashooter521 Again, bad situation with no good, clean outcome. And again, it's not like Venat didn't feel guilty, nor did she go through all of this unscathed; the level 89 cutscene made it clear she was suffering right alongside them.
Is this why I cried for an hour finishing the Myths of the Realm storyline? ToT
(Having met some of those who became the Twelve in the side quests in Elpis made it worse)
Something that's kind of amiss here is the parallels one can draw to Buddhism.
The life-stream perpetuates an endless cycle of life and death, in Buddhism this is called Samsara, (輪廻, rinne). The first truth of Buddhism is duhkha (苦), often translated as suffering, but rather more embodies unease at being incomplete, driven by craving and ignorance. The most prominent example of this is Hermes, but all the Ascians do in their own way.
The general goal is to achieve enlightenment and become free from the cycle of life and death, Samsara, and to do so you need to accept and know the four great truths.
When the End of Days came, the Ancients faced involuntary death for the first time as far as anyone could remember. Venes says "It was the first pain they ever felt, and it was unbearable. It shackled their hearts to the resplendent days when none knew of it." She asks her brethren to accept suffering as a constant companion, to engrave it upon their hearts and walk on, but they refuse. They long for their days of ignorance, and so they beseech Zodiark to absolve them from it and return them to the days already lost.
Venes however, accepts duhkha, she sees, and understands, and in creating Hydelin, she breaks free from Samsara and becomes quite literally Enlightened. She reaches Nirvana.
The idea that the soul is something inviolable and permanent comes from Abrahamic religions, there's no such thing in Buddhism. Venes became Hydelin. Hydelin still has the memories and experiences of Venes, but she isn't Venes.
Venat/Hydaelyn is more of a rogue element than a positive figure. There are many reasons to criticize her. Her argument that suffering needs to be a companion is flawed when considering other beings and the inaccurate portrayal of dead ends. The implication is that being susceptible to Dynamis corruption is worse than death, as it erases everything, including the soul. I wouldn't consider it positive for her to grant her cronies godhood. The shattered form of the star is unnatural and we discovered this in the latest patches. The star attempts to rejoin itself, but the watchers on the moons hinder its return to normal. Her arrogant claim of being the embodiment of the stars will is almost akin to Athena.
Someone had to say it.
But unlike Athena, she was a better god than her. Objectively speaking.
I wonder why she chose to die instead of living on and see the beauty of the world like Oschon did. When she stepped down from the seat and not return to the star, it gave off a sense of wanting to live on forever to continue seeing the world she loved so much. We knew that by the time we faced her in the mother crystal, she had already used up all her follower’s soul and kept her soul as a last resource in order to fight us. But why does she have to fight us? (Please don’t say that bc it’s the end of the saga.) It makes no sense at all in terms of the story.
We’ve already defeated Zodiark who at that point was 7/14 rejoined with 75% of the ancients soul still intact in him (obviously much stronger than her single soul.) And her fight mechanic has nothing to do with dynamis at all. Why choose to spend her entire soul to fight us? After fighting her we still have no solid proof that we can fight Meteion. Actually, we got nothing from killing her. Spending her soul to the point where she can never be born again feels weird and not necessary at all.
She was able to keep part of her followers’ souls and make them into the twelve. Why can’t she do the same to herself? Then after the fight, she can return to the star like the twelve did and wait for a new adventure, or she could form a new body like Oschon and roam the world forever. But no, she chose to end herself by using us. Even Elidibus as the heart of Zodiark was able to withdraw part of himself and continue to live in order to carry out his mission and finally return to the aetherial sea after his death.
Or is it because she saw that mankind can finally walk on their own without her guidance so she can RIP now? But isn’t that suixide? I’ve seen fandom call it just that when the ancients choose to return to the star after accomplishing something. Then what’s the difference here? It’s completely go against her own character. If we can still live on we have to keep forging ahead. Isn’t that the reason why she’s so in love with her sundered children?
So I wonder why she decide to do that. Her death is not necessary at all.
To become Hydaelyn, and give her the power she needed to do what she did. All of their souls need to be consumed in their entirety. Once Hydaelyn's power was exhausted, there was literally nothing left. She couldn't keep living even if she wanted to.
@@SynodicScribe I thought yoship mentioned that Venat used aether from her own soul to fight WoL. So at that time, if she decides not to fight then she won’t die right away, right? I mean maybe she can still live on for hundreds of year until her remaining soul is all used up. Then why not continue living but instead choose to end herself in a fight just like that?
I also thought that their souls would be completely erased when I read the side story and yoship’s answer in lore q&a. But myths suggest that the twelve’s souls (aside from Oschon) all return to the star, so I wonder which one to believe?
The sacrifices made to summon Hydaelyn must have taken some courage. To know that you will never again see the star you hope to save with no guarantee that it will work. While the same could be said of Zodiark, that was an act of desperation, made with less clear minds.
That’s actually been a consistent theme throughout XIV in all their expansions, even in 1.0. Louisoix, Moenbryda, Minfilia, the Warriors of Darkness, and so on. All made their sacrifices with hope though they would never see it.
Tremendous courage indeed. A sacrifice not many would commit.
This reminds me of Churchs' sacrifice speach at the end of RvB season 13, they will never know if their sacrifice worked, if the day was saved, they just have to have faith. (th-cam.com/video/M5jM_mrOqec/w-d-xo.html )
I wouldn't say those who gave of themselves to bring Zodiark the Saviour into being were 'of less clear minds', personally. They knew what they had to do, and what it would achieve.
Well now I have a new pet peeve. "Thanks" being pronounced with a voiced dental fricative. I'm 40 and have never heard anyone pronounce it that way. I do enjoy your lore videos though.
Thanks for the spoiler warning - I'll be back once I catch up
Honestly she came off more like good version of Athena to me and overall anti villain you don't commit a genocide and still be called somebody who loves life.
the fact that Yoshi p had to come out and say she was a "Good guy" speaks volumes on how people interpret her actions as amoral.
Would have been better if her memory got erased as well but she stumbled her way forward like the rest of the heroes.
I mean. There's a lot of people that say Hermes did nothing wrong despite being the reason untold trillions of lives ended in the universe. So I'm not surprised people would paint Hydaelyn as evil. lol
@SynodicScribe For sure if anything Hermes teaches us the valuable lesson of peer reviews lol
@@SynodicScribe Well they're not painting her as evil. They're just being stark about what her actions resulted in, which is to say, wiping out the ancients and also sparing Emet by design, meaning ensuring the rejoinings would come to pass - entirely consistent with her aiming for timeline convergence. It's funny because Yoshi chose to compare her to SHB Emet when he made that comment... he described Emet as a villain in many interviews at the time. I guess she gets a free pass because of who she benefited.
@@lolcat5303 I can't fault people for those thoughts and the confusion that comes with it. I don't talk about it often but, from a lore point of view, the trip back in time to Elpis hurt the continuity of FFXIV more than helped it. xD
@@aSmolGoth Well then its funny how the 6.x patches have totally backtracked on this 'forge ahead' nonsense. Zero gets magickally returned to her proper form by Hydaelyn's crystal despite no prior evidence said crystal could accomplish this, the Nibirun dynamis clones are magickally 'fixed' and cured of their suicidal apathy through a few quick words from shitty moonbunnies (how convenient the one race that arguably deserves that second chance the most is too erased and soul-mutilated to qualify for the treatment), and Vrtra gets to have his sister back he lost eons ago with little to no actual consequences resulting of this. And then of course there's the 8UC timeline with G'raha and co. willingly risking the erasure of an entire timeline because they absolutely could not move forward without their precious Warrior of Light.... Seems to me the moral of Endwalker is that you can only 'reclaim the past' if Hydaelyn favours you.
Edit: Oh, and let's not forget the revelations at the end of Myths of the Realm! The Twelve's ultimate goal was to *DIE* lol, one of the many so-called 'scary' facets of the Ancients Endwalker attempted to condition the playerbase into accepting so as to dehumanize them and retroactively justify Venat's act of genocide. But once again, seems if you are favoured by Mummy all the rules and stipulations do not apply to you.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Chills literally chills
I love Hydaelyn so much. Her story helped me get through a hard time. I want to get a tattoo of her.
Spoilers abound for me! I'll be back once I finish the MSQ and Thalia.
Its hard to comment on this because of where the story is currently. But Im confused about the part where their souls would not remain. If you're up to date on the msq then you know what im talking about.
What specifically? The recent MSQ story has had little to do with Hydaelyn.
@SynodicScribe no, but it does have to do with the people of her faction. Sorry, my mistake, not the msq, the 24-man raid story.
@@cheers2023 Ah. Like the video says. The 12 and the Watcher are not her allies. They're creations made in memory of them, possessed of the thoughts and feelings of extinguished souls. They themselves admit this on more than one occasion.
@@SynodicScribe okay thanks
@@SynodicScribe The confusion that's happening is that The Twelve state that fragments of their original selves souls serve as the core of their being, and that they're returning to the star. Oschon and the others even state to each other that they'll see each other again after Deryk's life ends.
*Cutscene #3 of The Heart of the Myth [Chronicles of a New Era - Myths of the Realm]
The Watcher is a complete replica, but the writers are implying that The Twelve aren't.
The full truth is probably going to have to wait until the release of the 3rd volume of the encyclopedia.
I agree with your closing thoughts a lot. The world we are on isn’t the same as the world populated by the ancients, not anymore. And the people inhabiting a place are the ones with the right to defuse its name. The citizens of the world call it Hydaelyn and so will I.
Also think of it this way. No one is screaming that we have to call New York New Amsterdam instead because that was its original name. We accept that this is now it’s name
Didnt she say as she was dying that her soul would be reborn?
Unfortunately no.
"Long after I have gone, though not even my soul remaineth..." -Hydaelyn as she disappears
If you watch the venat scene you get the whole "this is why we can't have nice stuff" vibe
Our Mother gave everything for us. It would be an insult to refer to the world as anything else. Hydaelyn it shall forever be.
I'll never forget when we first meet Hydaelyn, and we hear Flow for the first time. Ahhh the emotions, the heartache 💔
I think an important thing to remember is that Dynamis didn't exist as a written concept until Endwalker. Even in that expansion, it's mentioned so few times that it might as well be a footnote in the story in its entirety. I think the only reason it exists, as does Meteion and by extension Hermes, is to provide a loosely plausible justification to allow Venat to not look like a complete villain. Before Endwalker, the only justification that Venat had for sundering the star is because she disagreed with the convocation sacrificing other life on the star to revive the Ancients who sacrificed themselves to avert the calamity. The way she killed them after being rejected can only be described as an act of petulant spite at best and incredibly self-absorbed at worst, in the same way that she made Ardbert wander for 100 years as a shade unable to interact with the world. Was there really no other way to give the WoL a powerboost without making him suffer a century of isolation? It's a very unfunny "we've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas," sort of situation every time she tries to "fix" a problem, usually resulting from the consequences of her actions.
Go back and watch the cutscene of Venat drawing her sword on the convocation and then sundering the star. Take away the music and you have the same scene as Sephiroth in Niflheim, except writ large on the whole world and then multiplied by 14. It's hard to understate how much the story bends over backwards to protect Venat's image when the black and white, cause and effect analysis of the sundering paints her as the primary source of all conflict across all of the shards. She essentially lobotomized and crippled the souls of all of her people, for reasons that can only be summarized as "tough love." Ironically, the game calls her the "Mother Crystal," but she ends up more like an owner of 14 ant farms rather than a guiding, constructive parent. That she would let the situation with Bahamut, as a for example, carry on for centuries (wiki says eons, but the timeframe is never really clarified) where Bahamut and his tempered dragons were kept half-alive in living torment is really unconscionable.
When you get down to it, she's really just Vauthry with better press: controlling, vindictive, and, above-all, selfish. During the 10,000+ years she was alive, she only helped those she deemed worthy, and she otherwise let the resulting "children" of the shards she created suffer pointlessly to make some abstract point. Ultimately, the developers had to introduce Hermes failing to kill Metieon and then the concept of Dynamis to somehow salvage her character. Without those two story items, Venat ends up being just a tyrant that spends all her time in a castle made of stolen Aether, watching the disabled souls of her people (that she killed) die in agony and be reborn, over and over again, with different variations of each tragedy being played out across the shards. She's probably one of the worst characters in FF history, where the writers go out of their way to make her look good while she perpetrates evil.
And before anyone says that the shards have periods where people can lead good lives, that's in spite of Venat, not because of her. Zodiark shielded the star from the calamity, Hydaeln broke the star to check Zodiark.
I'm all in favor of keeping the name in memoria. I miss our mother.
Same. They will all be missed.
I have to say, every time i learn something new about Zodiark and hydaelyn, i can't help but go back to the thought process: They made Zodiark to buy time so they could eventually deal with the problem, people get mad that Zodiark is exactly what they made him to be...A temporary solution. So they make an even worse version of him and mess everything up and make it even worse for everyone without trying to deal with the actual problem...And somehow im supposed to believe hydaelyn was the 'goodguy' in this scenario. Naa, Zodiark did nothing wrong, and Venat had a hero complex. Leaving us to clean up her even worse mess.
Woot
To be honest, I never got warm with the name "Etheris" anyway... and it was irrititating sometimes how easily NPCs around us started to use the name. And if you think about it, the world cant be named that anyway, since Etheris would be the world as it was, as a whole world, not a shard among many (even if it was the Source). So, yeah, Haydaelyn still sits better with me...
I'm not so sure about your tale about the Twelve... After all, in the alliance raid, we see them saying their farewells and talking about "returning to the Star"... This implies to me, that despite everything being told a fraction of their souls lives on. Which... to be fair, I didnt like... I thought, like you said here, they were "snuffed out" into nothingness after fueling their creation... To be honest, I didnt get warm with the conclusion of the raid story... When you quest in Elpis, the Ancients often talk about "gods". Hell, even Lahabrea mentions "the Gods" in front of Athena, telling her that the meddeling with souls is not for men but gods. I had hoped to get something along that line... Not that the raid story was bad, it was quite good... but I had hoped for something else ^^°
Hydaelyn did nothing for the 13th , 1st and countless other shards worst she created the situation that alllowed them all to perish. She only actively helped her "Brave little spark" and damned every single other person who ever interacted with her.
The 12 did nothing for eons. But special mention to Halone for doing fuck all during the dragonsong war and Nophica claiming the spirits act "out of love". Lets not forget how they collectively ignored Lousouxs pleas for help when Bahamut emerged (Thank goodness he said "Fine I'll do it myself") their suicide pact unironically makes the world a better place and good riddance. I only wish Oshon/Derek wasnt suchba coward and commited to the action.
Hydaelyn's permanant death is the perfect punishment for her actions.
Yes she was ultimately proven right but alot of people died and suffered due to her actions. Its fitting that she only live to see a world of suffering and die never to see that world move past her cruel test and even better the ones who she wronged get to enjoy reincarnation.
Personally, I'll call the star Etheris in remembrance to the Ancients who gave up everything to give the star a fighting chance. Not Hydaelyn for the vain Eikon who dare call herself a goddess.
You mean like Venat did when she gave her entirety so it'd have a fighting chance.
Two sides for the same goal of preservation.
Also, she never called herself a goddess, everyone else did. She hid and presented herself as the crystal for thousands of years. Yes, she did say "supreme deity", but never once used the term goddess.
She didn't want people to worship her, she wanted life to continue and the future to move on, with what limited power she had.
Power scaling in this game is a stupid concept. She legit even was acknowledged as weaker than Zodiark, and couldn't manipulate aether on mass like him so it's no surprise she couldn't do much for other places.
Also, she gave Minfillia that cool ability to discipline light as an Oracle, so... Can't say she never did anything for the First.
@@ryu-kazuki698
Zodiarks barrier is what kept Etheriys safe for 12,000 years. Its those ancients trapped in agony that allowed the star to continue unmolested. Many would dehumanize (Including the god damned devs) them because it makes their mom/self insert look bad but they were people too who made the sacrifice to protect their home. Calling the star Etheryis is the least I can do rather than the Eikon responsible for their death.
Hydaelyn is responsible for the sundering , she spared her controlled opposition in the form of Emet selch , Lahabrea , and Elidubus to form the ascians , she got Minifillia killed acting as her Orcale (Over the course of many years in the 1st as reincarnations) , and FYI she didn't help the first until it became relevant for her "Brave little spark".
To add its more a translation thing but for the sake of clarity she took the title of "Will of the star"
@@Beathemighty We clearly played two different games. Because I don't ever remember anyone dehumanizing anything besides Emet and the ascians saying the sundered, Hydaelyn's product of life continuing without needless prevention of new life, which is what Emet wanted to use to restore the original sacrifices ancients... so he basically dehumanized the new unsundered Etheiryn life for the life of the past...
Yes the barrier was a means to an end, but that's the reason Hydaelyn didn't kill Zodiark, because she even acknowledged the depth of their sacrifice. Which is why she didn't attack the ascians.
Also you're not the only Warrior of Light in history, she did a lot in that time to preserve life itself.
Either you really didn't pay attention, or you just have an unreasonable hate for someone who did the exact thing you're defending.
@@ryu-kazuki698
The most effective forms of dehumanization are when you don't even realize its happening.
Case and point the EW sundering scene effectively reduces the Ancients to tempered thralls willing to throw away their lives like cattle for their blood God Zodiark in hopes of reattaining their paradise. You and the majority of the player base give no further thought to the collective humanity of Ancient people merely writing them off as a lost cause or at worst a dead end. This I would imagine makes swallowing the mass ethnic cleansing that was the Sundering more palatable as "there was no other way". In that cutscene their isn't a single named Ancient that interacts with Venat. All you have faceless NPCs ranting about paradise. You don't see Elidibus desperately trying to mitigate and resolve tensions , you don't see the star healed and bursting with Vitality , you don't see the countless suriviors desperately hoping to free their loved ones from purgatory inside Zodiark , you don't see people you see what Venat thought of her own people.
Also your next two paragraphs contradict each other. For one thank you for acknowledging the acsians as controlled opposition and two who do you think the Ascians fought in the other shards prior to their rejoining?
I'll repeat myself she brought ruin on those who interacted with her (Except her brave little spark!). What you call preservation of life was at best a token effort to prolong the inevitable. I shutter to think of how many WoL (OH hey Ardbert!) in the past fought an unwinnable battle spurred on in vain by Hydaelyns suffer and grow eugenics.
Emet Selch was sympathetic but ultimately he was a genocidal monster and the game did nothing to suggest otherwise , Thordan was a religious Zealot (OH hey Halone!) who controlled information and spurred on a centuries long war for his own vainty , Illberd was a rabid dog who scarficed his own countrymen in a vain attempt to liberate his home. All three had motivations that under a certain light can be understood but we all knew they were villans. So when Hydaelyn performs actions that put all three to shame she's acknowledged as a "Herois" as the "Primal of peace" , as "will of the star"? To summarize she's grey but the story would make you think she's a Saint.
No my friend my problem is I paid to much attention to the story and expected nuance the same way we had it in previous expansions. Evidently this was not the case.
She was only "proven right" because our creation was the only thing anyone attempted and we still would have lost had Zenos not been so hung up on us he flew to the end of the universe and helped us. So not only is there a failed timeline where her gamble didn't pay off and the WoL is dead. The timeline where we won was dependent on Zenos deciding the help save the universe so we'd hang out with him! I am sure had the Ancients been told everything she knew about what was to come, they would have been able to come up with a better plan that didn't put the continuation of all life in the universe on Zenos discovering the power of friendship. Maybe they could have built another bird to fly out and give therapy to the first bird.
I'm pretty sure Athena is what Venat was supposed to be written as until Yoshi threw a tantrum behind the scenes and forced Ishikawa to rewrite everything. I've never seen a more inconsistent character or how ridiculous the writing has been trying to bend over backwards to forcefully get across how "good" she was despite her being little more than a genocidal, deceitful witch who massacred her own race.
No, being turned into sundered jello does not mean they "survived" somehow when all relationships and ties to their past lives were effectively severed. Except for her co-conspirators apparently. The most useless pantheon and most botched creation mythos in the entire Final Fantasy franchise.
Having a really big creative disagreement would certainly explain why Endwalker's writing gets so awkward at certain parts. lol
@@SynodicScribe If it's the case, then it'll probably slip out at some point during a future interview. Much like they revealed that 5.3 was originally going to involve something very different and lead to a partial Rejoining.
Thank you, thank you for explaining this, hopefully more people will watch and finally understand what her passing meant :')
That’s a great sacrifice to be made for the future to continue; for the greater good of the star.
And also, that is a thoughtful notion to continue call the star “Hydaelyn” in eternal memory of not just Venat, but the countless others who continued to act for the star, not themselves and their vanity unlike the Zodiark-aligned Ancients.
Had 0 to do with vanity. The "Zodiark-aligned" ancients were trying to piece back their world after it had abruptly ended before their very eyes, something she added to through sundering (really: genociding) them as a species. Even the game itself does not frame it in terms of vanity.
From the minstrel:
"That the ancients should sacrifice half their number to save the star... The strength of their resolve makes me tremble in admiration."
Without their sacrifices there would be no Hydaelyn plan and no star.
Even she acknowledges, in the patch 5.2 scene before summoning Hydaelyn, that the Convocation was only trying to act in the best interests of the star. Fact is, we now know she knew they didn't have the full picture because she hadn't given it to them, or even her own followers, so probably realised it'd be awfully churlish of her to chastise them when she was not being truthful and they were acting on incomplete knowledge she did not provide them.
This is such an insane thing to read. The Star was named 'Eitherys' both to align with its inherent qualities of abundant aether (alongside its rightful stewards and original species) and to denote how its inhabitants lived to labour to offer improvements to the Star till they felt assured they could offer no more, upon which they'd gracefully embrace the long slumber. 'Zodiark-aligned Ancients' and 'vanity', talk about being completely inept in FFXIV lore. Literally nothing supports this idea, it is outright headcanon and misinformation.
I don't like Hydaelyn at all. Instead of preparing a solution to problems that she knew way in advance were coming, she goes "haha, have ten thousand years of suffering and misery, one of you will eventually figure it out"
Venat had to follow the timeline of the world we had told her of in order to keep the timelines merged. If she'd gambled the future on an unknown path, not only would she have risked not finding the right course of action, she would've left our timeline out to dry. If she hadn't followed the timeline the WoL is from, then the Hydaelyn we met would've been one who didn't meet us in Elpis, and thus didn't have the aetherial tracker on Meteion to navigate to Ultima Thule. Elidibus told us that nothing we could've done in Elpis would've changed our own personal history- if we'd made a substantial change, that timeline would've gone in a different direction, and we'd have returned to our time with nothing to show for it. Venat chose the path of history we'd told her about in order to save not just her timeline but ours, but in doing so, she had to act as if she hadn't received the foreknowledge we'd given her, to remain in step with the actions she took in our personal timeline.
I'm truly baffled how anyone can think positively of her. The power of positive narrative framing and mommy-vibes I guess...
@@monarchetypeemail3640 That feels like speculation, the whole reason the WoL tells Venat and co about the future is to try and change it. And sure, Alexander raid story ending suggests you can't change the past, but then also at one point you go back and change the past to save yourself from a big blast, and there's two versions of the same cat at once at a point so it's up in the air. Still a dick move to specifically force everyone into suffering cause to her that's what life is about.
I wish that with the reveal of Athena people would realize how terrible Venat is since they are basically the same character but framed differently. Athena wants to commit mass genocide to become a god, and Venat becomes a god to commit mass genocide.
How does no one, especially the writers, pick up on this???
Yea Venat actions almost comes off as an extreme version of Darwinism as if your life has no meaning if you don't suffer and you should die if you're not strong enough.
I think more people should stick to saying "Hydalin" and not "Eythiris" because I just freaking panic when some dweeb says it out loud in an rp venue around my sprout friend.
All it takes is one "What's that?" "I can't say" and she'll be like "hmmmmmmm." -_-;;;
Yeah. Gotta watch out for those Endwalker spoilers for sure!
Might wanna warn your friend to stay out of all housing then, there's a furnishing item called "Etheirys Globe."
It's stupid how one cutscene happens and suddenly everyone everywhere throws away what they know of their planet and decide to change its name to one they never heard of. And not like there's internet or global TV or anything to make an announcement, besides I've no idea if what happens in the deepest underground under Sharlayan would make it out to faraway lands like Thavnair. Like, why change it? Old Man Joe suddenly gets a psychic message while dozing on his farm that the world decided to change its name...
@@Max44321Lopporit Tribe spoilers::
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If you do the Lopporit tribe quests I'm fairly certain one of the final things is them setting up a radio station to basically call down (and back) from the star, and calling it Eitherys when doing so.. And while not everyone has radios (yet) it's pretty much a start to it becoming more widespread. Wether it would or should be accepted is another matter entirely, honestly I think Hyedalyn being the stars name is almost entirely an Eorzean concept anyway.
This is why Mother Hydaelyn, is the only worthy god in this game.
Zodiark wasn’t that powerful because as soon as he gets killed off in Endwalker, all of his work gets undone
Imagine if someone was able to write the physics of our reality for thousands of years. That's crazy.
Well, Zodiark wasn’t at his full strength. There were at least 5 other Shards, after 7 Calamities, (if including counting the failed Rejoining/possible restoration of the Void) that survived, leaving Zodiark weak.
@@SynodicScribe Not to mention being able to sustain it despite being hacked into many parts like Osiris. Which coincidentally he was also split into 14 pieces.
I mean he also pretty much lost on purpose thanks to Fandaniel
He's reinforcing the celestial currents through dark aether, which requires him to actually be present, and like another poster said, he wasn't at full strength and was being controlled by a maniac. Even so, he's shielding the sunderinos for 12k+ years and is responsible for the planet and life on it even existing. Hmm nah, I'd class that as a powerful being.