I ordered the DSMC2 HELIUM 8K yesterday, so I saved much money. I can understand the people bought the camera 2 months ago and are upset now for spending 25k€ more.
The FS7 started a trend of sub 10 thousand pricerange cinema cameras. Canon followed with the C300 and C200. Panasonic with the EVA. Blackmagic with the Ursa. Red got caught with its pants down.
Was thinking of upgrading my SW to Gemini but the upgrade price is almost as much as buying another Gemini! This is crazy!! I'd rather buy a new Gemini and use the SW as a B cam.
Never complain about price drops. That's just nuts, especially in high-tech products. Fact is, RED has to be feeling pressure from the latest Blackmagic camera as well as the zenmuse x7 on the DJI Inspire 2, which includes a 3-axis gimbal and remote control (not to mention an awesome drone). The final killer is, the dynamic range of these two recent products are now approaching that of the RED sensors. I suspect RED had no choice. I also suspect the "simplification" justification from RED was created so they don't need to admit the real reason, mentioned above. The simplification is worthwhile.
I honestly disagree here. I don’t think RED has any pressure from DJI or Blackmagic. They are small markets that just aren’t being applied on the level that RED and Arri is. People were paying for these cameras. Which is why people got upset over a price drop since they recently purchased at a higher price point. Trust me, sales isn’t an issue with RED when it’s still cheaper than Arri.
Maybe so... I can't be certain because I don't have reliable statistics to base my inferences on, and I don't know how to estimate what kind of due diligence people will perform before they make their purchase decisions in this market segment. However, I can say the following with certainty. I was "that close" to buying an 8K RED (the only question being "which one"). And my highly technical background makes the RED approach rather attractive to me. But the price of the decision convinced me to perform due diligence before I placed my order. To my surprise... a huge surprise really... when I finished my due diligence I realized that all things considered it would be crazy for me to buy the RED system when those two other options exist. After all, I was going to need to buy a 3-axis gimbal for the RED, and almost certainly a drone to carry both of them too. When you look at the total system in both cases, the RED simply doesn't make sense. The easier comparison is the DJI, because when you compare to the RED + gimbal + drone you are comparing a complete, integrated system that is relatively small, relatively lightweight, remote controllable and designed to make just about any kind of photography relatively easy to achieve. Compared to that, the RED + gimbal + drone is a huge, heavy, cumbersome boat anchor! The complete DJI Inspire 2 package for $20K includes their newest and best drone, a capable 3-axis gimbal with attachable 6.5K camera that has nearly as good dynamic range as RED, plus a whole slew of options and accessories including all 4 lenses. At $50K or $80K just to get the first module of a RED (and no gimbal, no lenses, no drone, and not even batteries or any of the many RED options you need in practice), the difference is almost unbelievable! And seriously, go view the image/results comparisons that have been done with RED versus that system. The difference in image quality and performance is minimal, also supports RAW, and in terms of drone and gimbal performance and the variety of locations the drone can operate, a RED system truly is a freaking dinosaur boat anchor in comparison. The case of RED vs Blackmagic is not nearly as clear cut, but the new Blackmagic offerings are damn good, have excellent dynamic range, great software suites (that work with source video from RED cameras too, of course), and good set of options and accessories (though you don't need nearly as many as with RED). I should add the following. Before 6 to 12 months ago, I think the way you portray the situation is pretty damn accurate. However, after going through all that due diligence, I can't help feel that more and more people will perform similar due diligence (at the whole-system level like I did), and come to similar conclusions as me. Could I be wrong about that? Sure! Sometimes people don't wake up for a long time. Maybe the fact these markets were somewhat diverse in the past will make the transition longer than I imagine, in which case you'll be correct for another year or two. I say that because I almost didn't do the due diligence, and I would never have come to know what I know or hold the opinion I do. Frankly, at the start of my due diligence I would never have guessed my conclusion would be what it was. Note this too. If you will never need a gimbal... or a drone... then the comparison is not quite as over-the-top. However, the difference is still quite large. And I really have to ask this. How many people who need a camera like the RED will never need a stabilization gimbal or a drone? Very few, I suspect.
true! those that can't afford it now can take advantage of the price drops when the new models release. You just have to be able to withhold yourself from chasing the newest technology and making the most of the technology you have!
That is why I will never go with Red. As soon as you spend thousands on a Red camera they discontinue it and drop support for it... to say nothing about reliability.
Not confusing just different cameras like a7r a7s fs5 fs7 bla bla 😂 now its confusing because they are cheaper as before and have more functions. That move is crazy. I‘m on the Epic-W and got the upgrade deal from the scarlet-w RED offerd in the first place. So 5000 more for the dsmc2 upgrade is ok. I‘d love to do the upgrade but gemini is also very interesting. Especially for ruff projects where there is not much time for lighting it has the better USP than 8k 60fps. But the Image looks amazing and noise performance is not bad at all on 8k. Helium feels really future proof in terms of resolution. Especially with the 60fps. What are you guys going to do? 8k or 5k low light?
Low light does sound great but I think 8K is the "future proof" option here, and that's a word I hate using with this kind of technology. haha For whatever "future proof" means, but I feel Gemini, while awesome and amazing, it will eventually evolve to have a 6K or 8K option and that'll be a good time for me personally to start checking that out. 5K is what the Scarlet-W I use is working with, which is great, but I think if I'm going to make another big jump, I'd do it for 8K.
Chris Murray yes chris you are right with that future proof term. What I was trying to say is, that I bought the Epic-W to finally get to work for the next 6 to 8 years and stop with all the research shizzle about cameras and what comes next. Just technical freedom no barrier’s no matter what I want to shoot is what I wanted. 8k is big and will be big in 5years. And if not as delivery format you have the freedom of cropping and leveling for beautiful 4k delivery. Noise levels on 8k are pretty great if you ask me and with the apature 300d we have a insanely bright and portable option for great lighting. You are right with the gemini. I also going to stick to the Epic-W and upgrade it to the new board.
I wanted to know if the prices of the new line of RED cameras are fixed prices or have a deadline to buy the RED HELIUM 8K at $ 24,500, or the price will change in a few weeks or will it remain for a few years ??? espro and answer me, thank you, greetings from PERU.
Well, everything is subject to change in technology so who knows but these are set prices, not temp pricing. The upgrade prices will be on a time-based deal but the outright cost of a new camera is a current. set price
That'd be nice but the sensors aren't what is being upgraded. What the capabilities of the camera brain can do and/or the price point is. Unless you're referring to Gemini?
Does this announcement effect you? What are your thoughts on the change?
This makes so much more sense! THANK YOU for explaining and providing all this background info!
I ordered the DSMC2 HELIUM 8K yesterday, so I saved much money. I can understand the people bought the camera 2 months ago and are upset now for spending 25k€ more.
The FS7 started a trend of sub 10 thousand pricerange cinema cameras. Canon followed with the C300 and C200. Panasonic with the EVA. Blackmagic with the Ursa. Red got caught with its pants down.
RED is in a different market and it seems their closing the gap again to keep it all professional and less and less semi-professional
Was thinking of upgrading my SW to Gemini but the upgrade price is almost as much as buying another Gemini! This is crazy!! I'd rather buy a new Gemini and use the SW as a B cam.
That seems to be a good route to go. Or sell the SW and invest in a new Gemini, right?
If the tool works, i'm not complaining.
Thanks for all that detailed info !
Never complain about price drops. That's just nuts, especially in high-tech products. Fact is, RED has to be feeling pressure from the latest Blackmagic camera as well as the zenmuse x7 on the DJI Inspire 2, which includes a 3-axis gimbal and remote control (not to mention an awesome drone). The final killer is, the dynamic range of these two recent products are now approaching that of the RED sensors. I suspect RED had no choice. I also suspect the "simplification" justification from RED was created so they don't need to admit the real reason, mentioned above. The simplification is worthwhile.
I honestly disagree here. I don’t think RED has any pressure from DJI or Blackmagic. They are small markets that just aren’t being applied on the level that RED and Arri is. People were paying for these cameras. Which is why people got upset over a price drop since they recently purchased at a higher price point. Trust me, sales isn’t an issue with RED when it’s still cheaper than Arri.
Maybe so... I can't be certain because I don't have reliable statistics to base my inferences on, and I don't know how to estimate what kind of due diligence people will perform before they make their purchase decisions in this market segment. However, I can say the following with certainty. I was "that close" to buying an 8K RED (the only question being "which one"). And my highly technical background makes the RED approach rather attractive to me. But the price of the decision convinced me to perform due diligence before I placed my order. To my surprise... a huge surprise really... when I finished my due diligence I realized that all things considered it would be crazy for me to buy the RED system when those two other options exist.
After all, I was going to need to buy a 3-axis gimbal for the RED, and almost certainly a drone to carry both of them too. When you look at the total system in both cases, the RED simply doesn't make sense. The easier comparison is the DJI, because when you compare to the RED + gimbal + drone you are comparing a complete, integrated system that is relatively small, relatively lightweight, remote controllable and designed to make just about any kind of photography relatively easy to achieve.
Compared to that, the RED + gimbal + drone is a huge, heavy, cumbersome boat anchor! The complete DJI Inspire 2 package for $20K includes their newest and best drone, a capable 3-axis gimbal with attachable 6.5K camera that has nearly as good dynamic range as RED, plus a whole slew of options and accessories including all 4 lenses. At $50K or $80K just to get the first module of a RED (and no gimbal, no lenses, no drone, and not even batteries or any of the many RED options you need in practice), the difference is almost unbelievable! And seriously, go view the image/results comparisons that have been done with RED versus that system. The difference in image quality and performance is minimal, also supports RAW, and in terms of drone and gimbal performance and the variety of locations the drone can operate, a RED system truly is a freaking dinosaur boat anchor in comparison.
The case of RED vs Blackmagic is not nearly as clear cut, but the new Blackmagic offerings are damn good, have excellent dynamic range, great software suites (that work with source video from RED cameras too, of course), and good set of options and accessories (though you don't need nearly as many as with RED).
I should add the following. Before 6 to 12 months ago, I think the way you portray the situation is pretty damn accurate. However, after going through all that due diligence, I can't help feel that more and more people will perform similar due diligence (at the whole-system level like I did), and come to similar conclusions as me. Could I be wrong about that? Sure! Sometimes people don't wake up for a long time. Maybe the fact these markets were somewhat diverse in the past will make the transition longer than I imagine, in which case you'll be correct for another year or two. I say that because I almost didn't do the due diligence, and I would never have come to know what I know or hold the opinion I do. Frankly, at the start of my due diligence I would never have guessed my conclusion would be what it was.
Note this too. If you will never need a gimbal... or a drone... then the comparison is not quite as over-the-top. However, the difference is still quite large. And I really have to ask this. How many people who need a camera like the RED will never need a stabilization gimbal or a drone? Very few, I suspect.
I have a camera but just ordinary one
Price will drop even more in the near future. That’s the good thing about technology evolution.
true! those that can't afford it now can take advantage of the price drops when the new models release. You just have to be able to withhold yourself from chasing the newest technology and making the most of the technology you have!
That is why I will never go with Red. As soon as you spend thousands on a Red camera they discontinue it and drop support for it... to say nothing about reliability.
As technology goes, I feel like this applies to all products, RED just happens to move faster...and cost more...
Not confusing just different cameras like a7r a7s fs5 fs7 bla bla 😂 now its confusing because they are cheaper as before and have more functions.
That move is crazy.
I‘m on the Epic-W and got the upgrade deal from the scarlet-w RED offerd in the first place.
So 5000 more for the dsmc2 upgrade is ok.
I‘d love to do the upgrade but gemini is also very interesting. Especially for ruff projects where there is not much time for lighting it has the better USP than 8k 60fps. But the Image looks amazing and noise performance is not bad at all on 8k. Helium feels really future proof in terms of resolution. Especially with the 60fps.
What are you guys going to do? 8k or 5k low light?
Low light does sound great but I think 8K is the "future proof" option here, and that's a word I hate using with this kind of technology. haha For whatever "future proof" means, but I feel Gemini, while awesome and amazing, it will eventually evolve to have a 6K or 8K option and that'll be a good time for me personally to start checking that out. 5K is what the Scarlet-W I use is working with, which is great, but I think if I'm going to make another big jump, I'd do it for 8K.
Chris Murray yes chris you are right with that future proof term.
What I was trying to say is, that I bought the Epic-W to finally get to work for the next 6 to 8 years and stop with all the research shizzle about cameras and what comes next.
Just technical freedom no barrier’s no matter what I want to shoot is what I wanted.
8k is big and will be big in 5years. And if not as delivery format you have the freedom of cropping and leveling for beautiful 4k delivery.
Noise levels on 8k are pretty great if you ask me and with the apature 300d we have a insanely bright and portable option for great lighting.
You are right with the gemini. I also going to stick to the Epic-W and upgrade it to the new board.
I wanted to know if the prices of the new line of RED cameras are fixed prices or have a deadline to buy the RED HELIUM 8K at $ 24,500, or the price will change in a few weeks or will it remain for a few years ??? espro and answer me, thank you, greetings from PERU.
Well, everything is subject to change in technology so who knows but these are set prices, not temp pricing. The upgrade prices will be on a time-based deal but the outright cost of a new camera is a current. set price
If you have Epic W and need 60 fps - just switch to 6k:) no need to pay 5k$
i feel like they should offer the sensor upgrade for free to people who bought in the last few months
That'd be nice but the sensors aren't what is being upgraded. What the capabilities of the camera brain can do and/or the price point is. Unless you're referring to Gemini?
Red has the worst and most confusing product line ever.