1853 Enfield & Pritchett Cartridges - Spinner Challenge
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 ต.ค. 2024
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In this Spinner Challenge video, Karl attempts to spin the dreaded MGM Spinner at 25 yards with an 1853 Enfield & what are arguably the fastest muzzle loading cartridges of their day - the Pritchett system. Is this possible?
I acquired the Pritchett cartridges from Paper Cartridges:
papercartridge...
This was more interesting than I was expecting. And by this point I basically expect everything on this channel to be at least somewhat interesting.
Agreed. I didn't think it was possible, but watching Karl try it with that much speed did bring to light some thoughts on the nature of Early Modern musketry--First just the desperation a soldier might have trying to squeeze another shot in before the enemy closes in for a charge. More importantly, though, the value of battle-hardened soldiers in situations of urgency. A corp of soldiers who can properly load and fire a musket not just with haste when it is needed, but to load PROPERLY with the terror of a modern battle unfolding around them could absolutely be the difference between victory and defeat on the steadfastness of their musketry alone. It's wonderful to be able yo see a rough reenactment of that with ones own eyes.
@@engar-dug5197 agree
My father was a Civil War historian and read me stories of when in combat from a static position, soldiers would often not replace the ram rod, but quickly skewer it into the ground in lieu of placing it back into the gun to save time. Not proper manual of arms, but when trying to get off as many rounds as possible when under fire, I imagine every second counts.
I have no idea of the historicity of this practice, but I used to shoot in N-SSA competitions, which are five minute relays of fire where a team tries to clear a board of reactive targets (usually clay pigeons) as fast as possible with civil war muskets. When I did NSSA, we used to stick our bayonets in the ground and lean our ramrods on them in the crook of the end between shots. It was much, much faster than attempting to put them back in the rifle every time.
I recall a video from Cap and Ball where he had a napoleonic Jaeger rifle and kit, and instead of having the ram rod on the gun, it had a large bulb on one end and hung through a ring in the kit.
When he loaded, he just grabbed it by the bulb, rammed it, and returned it. It looked significantly faster than fumbling around to get the ramrod on and off of the musket.
When I first started the video I thought that an inline capper and not returning the rod to the rifle might make it possible, but after seeing how fast the spinner dies, I don't think it would be enough.
Explains a few things
yeah, my first thought when he took the rod out - stick it into the ground in between shots
This would be an amusing collaboration with Rob from British Muzzleloaders - the spinner challenge, volley fire edition!
The first try could be even more amusing if they shot at the same time, but don't communicate if they shoot at the upper or lower target.
*cue video editing as many many Robs form a line of Infantryrobs*
I was just thinking the same thing
@@wesleygay8918 McKenzie, are we missing something?
@@LeminskiTankscor if you are, I have no idea what it is
When I shot NSSA competition, we used plastic tubes that we'd fill with powder and then place the ball on top. To reload, no paper, just pull out the ball, stick tube in barrel and invert, pour in powder, put ball in end of barrel, ram home, throw ramrod at ball to seat, when it bounces grab it, pull it out, then set it on the ground leaning against the bayonet, planted in the ground - we never reseated the ramrod into the rifle on the clock. Doing that, I could get off 4-5 shots in a minute, as a 16 year old moving as fast as I could.
Obviously this isn't historically accurate, those plastic tubes didn't exist, and in real combat we'd have been screwed if we had to move fast and both our bayonets and ramrods are on the ground rather than on our person, but it was much faster on the clock, and I wonder if it's possible to spin the spinner that way.
As a person ignorant of guns, it is so much more fun for me to watch these old guns get used.
It feels like they're being 'operated' rather than just point-and-shoot. I think it's easier to observe the human skill and technique that go into successfully using them, than something like a modern automatic gun with a scope. And the videos about the ammunition fabricating are really informative & fun to watch. That blunderbuss video was really cool.
I'm sure modern guns require a lot of knowledge to use successfully at a competition level. But for me, it's often hard to perceive from my sofa.
That's kind of the pull in bothering to use such primitive tech, more to screw up=more rewarding, and demanding of total concentration. It can be a very relaxing activity.
You may also like two other channels if you like these old guns. You should check out Paper Cartridges and britishmuzzleloaders
A lot of engineering skill has gone into the art of giving people comparable performance with less skill on the user end
@@Broken_Yugo AGREE 100%! and at age 12 in 1977 my dad said Yes I could build my 1st gun but I had to Start at the beginning with a BP revolver! Now I am old and RIGHT BACK at the Beginning Again? Building, finishing, blueing, restoring smoke poles and stoners, and making all my own powders, lubes, paper cartages and caps, working on napping.
The number of people in the volley needed to spin the target would be a neat indicator of how much deadlier a repeater makes you
I would love to see an experiment to determine how many people with muskets it takes to spin the spinner
You can really see why the bayonet is one of the most important features of these old rifles. You can really cover a lot of ground by the time it would take to reload.
This would have been a good opportunity to handicap with a squirt of 5w-30. Even then, it would take an absolute master to even have a chance. I doubt it's even possible with a front stuffer.
This is a great demonstration of the absolute technological dominance of repeating firearms.
If only the Austro-Hungarians had access to this video prior to the Battle of Sadowa.
Not only repeating firearms, self contained cartridges. I bet you can do the spinner with a springfield trapdoor.
Holy crap that was amazing! You could actually see the ball leaving the barrel!
Excellent video as always Karl! You are my favorite guntuber, keep it up with the great content!
Just needed a follow-up bayonet charge for the complete rotation! 😉 👍
This one was the best one so far even though it failed. Super interesting. I used to own 3 of those Enfields, a Musketoon, a rifle and a Zouave, had never known about the Pritchett cartridge until now. 👍
You should do this with two rifles and a loader. Could be fun
I don't know that two rifles would be quite enough. Three should get it over and likely have the first rifle reloaded in time if a fourth shot is needed.
I think at least 2 rifles and 2 loaders - one to pour the powder and load the bullet; one to ram. The shooter would place the firing cap.
Smartly done! Glad to see another convert to the Pritchett. Once you shoot an Enfield cartridge, you never want to go back to Minies…
A most interesting demonstration. Superb determination in the face of impossible odds and also a good way of showing the difficulties presented in combat once ordered fire broke down into skirmishing.
There is something so endearing about rifle muskets, completely obsolete in every way but I still love them they are beautiful weapons
I think it’s the mechanical aspect and all the work that is involved to operate
I find them fascinating as well
Never obsolete if your other and only alternative is a sharp stick and stones
@@pablofalcao1700 only is the key word for sure
@@GMdrivingMOPARguy much like the 1861 Springfield or how about the 1841 Mississippi rifle conversion or the Kentucky rifles I gotta say I love them all
Karl putting that ramrod back in after each shot. Because professionals have standards.
What you are saying is true about soldiers loading multiple charges in rifles happened on both sides. Not just with the Enfield rifles in particular. The battle of Gettysburg at Devil's Den, Antietam, Nashville, and other Civil War battlefields. Infantrymen on both sides were focused on what was in front of them during combat. As they fired and loaded they kept their eyes focused as they moved forward or retreated and tried to keep from getting shot in combat when they see their comrades falling left and right of them. The British Infantry who were equipped with these rifles in Crimea during the 1850s were much more effective because they were much more of a professional army than the Russians. The British had emphasized accuracy in volley fire exercises at longer ranges and platoon and company reloading exercises for maximum firepower and accuracy. Very true with British, Indian Sepoy, and Gurkha soldiers in India with Prichard cartridges. The only general who maximized the effect of the Enfield was Confederate General Clayburn who was fighting in Tennessee. He was a veteran of the British Army in Crimea. The Enfield rifle musket is effective in combat with the infantryman trained on the use of it's sights and trained to ignore the volleys incoming and load properly under command by an officer or NCO. Very difficult under combat conditions. I got this from watching British Muzzleloaders. He is fantastic explaining this.
I'd be curious to know what the lowest-tech firearm that can actually spin this target is. I'm thinking you *might* be able to pull it off with a single-shot breachloader, if you drilled well enough.
I'm pretty sure he has done it with a single shot breechloader. I can't find the video for the life of me right now but I can clearly remember him doing that.
His proficiency with the springfield breach loader makes that very viable tbh
He spun the target with a breech loading double barrel shotgun. I think he used birdshot. Breech loading single shot rifle martini henri would be easier.
Wonder if it would be possible with a Dreyse or Chasepot needle gun
@@Balmung60 Ask Chap on the Range. He's doing vids on those type of guns.
I love this kind of experimenting.
I'd love to know how a Snider-Enfield would do, considering that it is the breech loading conversion of this rifle. The contrast in speed would be interesting to observe to show how much of an advantage such a system has over the traditional muzzle loader.
Rob from British Muzzleloaders did a side by side. No spinner, but shooting on the clock.
th-cam.com/video/YCC9a10anTo/w-d-xo.html
If anyone could make this I'd bet on Brett from Paper Cartridges or Rob from British muzzleloaders being the people to do it, and that still seems unlikely.
Speed is easy… hitting that tiny little target after basically doing a form of Civil War CrossFit to load the thing… another matter! I might try it, if I can rig a spinner.
I would like to see this done with progressively larger calibers to see if it can be spun in one shot I’m mostly thinking of the many dangerous game calibers
2 bore shotgun!
Well done! We learn as much from the tests that fail as we do from those that are successful.
These muzzle loafers/single shot spinner trials defiantly should be redone with 2 people shooting
It'd be neat to see this as a team of people working together to spin it.
Excellent vid!! A lot to learn from.
Great attempt, awesome idea, thanks.👍
I would be interested to see if the the most well trained person would be able to do it. The person who own paper cartridges managed to get off 4 shots in a minute with his p53, how well aimed they were I don’t know, but I would assume his level is as close an allegory as is possible for the elite soldiers of the day. Great video!
Finding someone who can do 4 shots a minute while hitting this target would be quite an amazing find.
I think this test exemplifies how much the timer (in this case the dwindling momentum) puts stress on the shooter.
Like you always say, running things on the clock (in the spinner in this case) really lets you see the weaknesses in certain systems
You need five guys with volley fire. That would be consistent with historical doctrine and would spin that baby. The slow motion scream scared me.
I have a feeling the British no biting has something to do with the Indian Mutiny.
@Robert Stallard is now with the minie balls of the American Civil War the greased bit were the grooves of the back end of the minie ball and it was a mixture of tallow or lard with beeswax.
Now that's an interesting match idea for doing pairs.
Slow is smooth, and smooth is fast!
No, no, no, yOuR dOInG iT aLL wRoNg.
You put long bayonet, you Poke spinner until it decides to go over.
i suggest another method. after the first hit run forward and butt stroke the spinner to get a full revolution.
You should try a 1842 Springfield smoothbore. It's a .69cal But I found that if I used .65 ball and "spit loaded" I could hit a man size target 5 times in 1 min at 50 yards. So you might be able to hit a spinner at 25.
Still a worthwhile exercise, Karl. You'll have to settle for a "Participation Trophy" this time. 😄
Idea. Get a couple of friends with muskets and try to spin it together. Call it The Three Musketeers.
Gotta get one of these.
Throw in rain, or even heavy morning dew, and nothing goes boom then the Lt. says "Fix bayonets" and your day just got shittier.
Next time on InRange, bayonet charge vs spinner
It would be very interesting to see if 2 people, firing alternatively, could get it to spin. If not 2, then 3 perhaps. What ROF out of a Civil War era musket would it take? Please, I'd like to see that vid.
Love the video. Would you be able to spin the spinner with a Snider or Trapdoor Springfield? Have you already done that video? I may have missed it, but I’ve made a good effort to watch all your videos.
Great videos, than you for all your hard work.
A SOLDIER can fire 3 well aimed shots per minute! THAT'S SOLDIERING!!!
Awesome try made even more interesting by all of the things that went wrong. The trapdoor is up next?
a valiant effort, Sir!
Wow that was a great demonstration of pressure and the effects of fine motor skills. If you do it again, I would think your best chance would be using 2 rifles and a loader (someone with fast hands) and alternate between rifles. I still don’t think it would be fast enough to spin the target, but I think that would be your best option.
Looking closely, you had skipped over the cartridge entirely and loaded just the percussion cap. The point is the same though, In the heat of battle mistakes are made. This video was fun to watch!
That is not correct, you can even see the projectile fly out of the bore in frame rate decreased clip.
About the only way to manage that would have been with at least three rifles and two assistants. Switching guns is always faster than reloading!
Would it be possible to load without the ramrod by bumping the shoulder stock on the ground? Apparently the Voortrekkers (I'm speaking from a South African perspective) used to load whilst galloping on horseback - powder charge down the barrel, bump the stock, bullet down the barrel, bump the stock, fire and repeat. If I'm not entirely mistaken, this form of reloading was also replicated in the British TV series "Sharpe"
I use that type of paper cartridge in my Enfield, practicing rapid fire is really fun, and confuses the standard black powder target shooters at the range no end.
It would be interesting to see how many people would be needed in volley fire to match one person with a trap door and then trap door to a lever action gun, all of similar power (powder charge & bullet weight) ,to spin the target.
I'm starting to think this series is a very long troll on Ian 😅
My Pedersoli Zouave has shown me that a .58 caliber Civil War Eara rifled musket with October country factory cast Minie ball conical bullets with Ol zip patch grease from Dixie Gun Works smeared into the groves will slap a 2'x2' steel gong at 210 yards all afternoon. So, I doubt the accuracy of the gun is the issue its defiantly ammunition. Or user if they aren't shooting a lot of rifled muskets every day.
In real world conditions I would be pretty confident that infantrymen did not reseat the ram rod between each shot.
"DDRRaaaawwww!!!" - Slow motion Karl, 2022
Karl I would be curious to see you pick a caliber in the other direction: what's the MOST capable of spinning the spinner?
Since momentum is conserved in a collision but kinetic energy isn't, I would think a heavy and slow bullet would be the way to go.
A .45-70 would work great but I think a 12ga slug might be even better. Comparing a 1oz (440 gr) 12 ga slug at 1500 fps against a 5.56 55gr at 3,000 fps, the slug has 2x the kinetic energy but 4x the momentum.
IE, 1 hit with the slug imparts the same momentum to the spinner as 4 hits with 5.56, without waiting for the spinner to be in the right position and without losing energy to friction during that waiting.
12 ga slug video? I'd love to see it!
Hi I love the smell of gunpowder in the day 😁😁😁😁
Karl that was an epic try
Just in my opinion it was impossible to do as you said to spin it it would take two muskets , volley fire? Maybe one then the other fired as the first one reloads would work too
Keep up with the excellent informative quality content. Bestest from Scotland
Stoving the ram rod away took also time. Maybe trying it sometime again with someone holding at least the ram rod for you?
Huh. The sheer amount of rotation a single shot gives you is making me wonder if you could do it with a trapdoor
Valiant attempt.
You're an absolute chad for even trying
I don't know anyone but Karl that would even try to do this.
Interesting, and not unexpected.
But Karl, with the spinner, you don't lose your inertia, you lose your momentum.
So we don't need to go to the nerf gun for a spinner challenge.
This was incredibly informative! What was learned from adding stress to the equation really demonstrates an aspect of the civil war that could easily be missed.
I've seen your "make up" video where Fagen helped you out. I'm curious how the spinner would react if it were lubricated.
Interesting! The reload must have been terrifying when in combat back then.
I applaud the attempt. Absolute mad lad.
What's next? Bows/Crossbows? Throwing stones at the spinner? Fart?
This does bring about an interesting line of thinking. If the Confederacy had a supply of these early in the war, one wonders if that might have contributed to their early battlefield success. If it did, it couldn't have been a huge contribution, but a few seconds shaved off a reload adds up over time.
@@gupler Especially, if you have a second and or third line of troops to keep the volley-fire coming.
Not necessarily. I mean yes, but the advantage would pale in comparison to the advantages the Union had at those same battles. Better supplied, fed, massed artillery/rifle production. There were whole confederate brigades still armed with muskets. The battlefield successes were a result (in the east) of the Confederate command's brilliancy with regards to Lee, Jackson, Longstreet, and a plethora of talented officers and NCOs.
And also, Mexican-American war experience also contributed to the Confederacy's early war experience, as many of the officers and some rank/file were veterans of that war. Confederate soldiers had a lot more hunters/rural folk per capita which made firearm drills easier and more natural for them.
II think you could shoot a muzzleloader fat enough to roll over the spinner. There is enough wasted time that could be optimized to do it. If you added the hinged captured ramrod from the 1856 Enfield Carbine, Size the bullet slightly smaller so it enters the barrel easier. Use a heavier bullet to impact more mass to the spinner, and use an early percussion cap dispenser. Every war has had riflemen that used better, select, or modified equipment. With the captive ramrod, you could let it hang free, and it would be at hand when next you needed it during rapid-fire. Counter boring space to start the bullet would make loading faster while making cleaning more difficult and possibly necessary more often. Different ways of carrying cartridges and caps could speed up loading as well. Tactical clothing and accessories aren't a new idea.
Very interesting. Now you should continue the Civil War there and try it with a Sharp’s 1859/Spencer/Henry
I'm not concerned for anyone's safety as I've only ever seen the utmost standards from you; that doesn't make it any less strange or disconcerting to her what sounds to be children playing in the background.
So the spinner acted as a stressful situation. Multiply this by say 20 or 30 times in a Company of men and you would see them lose their position or even their lives at the hands of an onrushing enemy. Very interesting stuff Karl
He did it, that gets a thumbs up.
I love how the spinner seemed to come to a complete stop just as Karl finished loading.
That was painful to watch.
What a neat test--you're right, it really highlights the time pressure. When I first saw what you intended I thought it sounded silly until I realized how the time pressure was really communicated. It might be more fun to try it with a fast-loading carbine, such as the Smith.
You knew it was coming..
Could you do the spinner with a percussion Sharps?
Next video you could try with a flamethrower maybe?
I wish you would try to prepare the rounds and caps and the rod on a table. Maybe there would be a chance.
you see the 'squib' projectile at 2:34 on the target camera quite clearly
This was hilarious and that mishap actually made it all the more illuminating. We don't always consider the field failures of Civil War-era firefights. You can only imagine the last thought of poor Johnny after he pulled that trigger...
And then it hits him.
If you slow it down at 2:30 you can actually see the bullet leave the barrel
Muzzle loader action challenge match in the future?
Tom Cruise: "Load! Load! Faster! Faster!"
A predictable result with some interesting details. Out of curiosity, would soldiers on the battlefield pick up ram rods? It looks like most of your lost time was getting the ram rod in and out of the holding area. An extra ram rod that you could stab into the ground and use quickly could speed this up.
This rifle started the first Indian war of independence
when you go to cap put the rifle under your arm and use your other hand to get a cap.on the rifle. its faster. in reenacting sometimes they say put the cap on the rifle not the rifle on the cap
Spencer vs. Henry!!!!
Nothing like good ole cap and ball torture.
I do respect you're showing the ones you can't do as well as the ones you can.
Now I want to see that volley fire version of this challenge!
I'm happily surprised by the spinner series. I was worried it was going to become monotonous, but this has had some really interesting lessons and twists :D
I love the idea of volley firing to spin the spinner! I think finding out how many shooters it would take to spin the spinner would be a really interesting thing to find out.
I'd be interested to see this attempted with a breach loading cavalry carbine or something similar. I think that would be the type of civil war era firearm with the best chance of flipping a spinner.
If defending and stationary, some soldiers would skip the step of returning the ramrod and stick it in the ground for easy accessibility. Even taking a second or two off reload times is an advantage.
You aren't doing that in SE Arizona.
@@InrangeTv I know, but you can where 95% of the civil war was essentially fought.
@@InrangeTv Could place it in an assistant's hand as a substitute though. You're still only going to shave 4-5 seconds though, it looks fumble but it's not taking that much time... the spinner's winding down completely in the time you did use.
Only thing I can think of that would improve the reload time here is a shorter rifle (one "arm throw" length for the rod), maybe maynard tape priming if you can get one to actually work, and flash paper wrapped drop-in cartridges (which nobody had at the time) with undersized minies.
I've been curious for a while regarding what i'm about to ask......why did they not do what was done with the Sharps rifles and simply use nitrated paper, and shove the whole fucker down there in one piece? They were doing it for Cap n Ball revolvers, so why not the rifles?
@Robert Stallard Ok that makes sense