American VS British WWII Bombing Tactics - Which Was Better?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 19 พ.ค. 2024
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Learn how the British RAF and American US Army Air Force differed in their approaches, with the British favoring nighttime raids and the Americans conducting daylight missions. Dive into the details of the Casablanca directive and see how both nations worked together to weaken German industry and morale! #mastersoftheair #ww2
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OMG, I’m I’m a big fan
Number 1🎉🎉🎉
Bro pinned a comment before the video was posted💀
W
🇺🇦😱
My great grandfather was a pilot for the RAF, he flew a Lancaster. He was one of the only pilots to survive the whole war, and even got something signed from Mountbatten. My mom said that he was a lovely man, and I really wish I could’ve gotten the chance to meet him. Here’s to you Rodrick McKinnon.
Do heroes kill people in their own country?
@@PROVOCATEURSKwhat?!
@@PROVOCATEURSK The was a hot take comment.
@@PROVOCATEURSK ah yes some fellas grandfather went around killing people in the UK, are you dense?
No way my great grandad was also one kf the only pilots to survive the whole war lol
The RAF were active 1939 to 1945 and Bomber Command included all Bombers in the RAF, not just those attacking Germany. While the USAAF didn't really start bombing until mid 1943 and the figures given are just for the 8th Airforce 1943-45. The British also fielded many more bombers, conducting the first 1,000 bomber raids in May 1942, the USAAF didn't achieve these numbers until late 1944. So if you average out the statistics the USAAF lost far more men than did the RAF.
Bombers were horribly in efficient in damage to cost ratio unlike artillery and katyushas. Basically like having 1 bomber packed with bombs or 40 artillery guns
@@jason200912 That is a pretty pointless comparison. Heavies are going after industry and other targets hundreds to thousands of miles behind the lines. Artillery is engaging local targets within 1-25km. Not even remotely the same job or functional capabilities.
@@jason200912yes but artillery can’t reach the Rhine from the USSR plus we are discussing strategic bombing not tactical bombing
How many 4 engine bombers in the RAF 1,000 plane raid ? How many OTU's ?
IWM Life And Death In Bomber Command page
7...."Only 25% of airmen safely exited Halifaxes and Stirlings, a mere 15% from Lancasters."
Freeman Dyson - Problems in bombing policy and aircraft design
th-cam.com/video/kLBBI8Wnrfk/w-d-xo.html
My Gramps admitted it was a 2% survival for Army Air Corps as "Bomber Air command" covered all losses. Statistically American command would note a quarterly loss ratio and balance it out. So Durring 1942 and 1943 the bomber command suffered a staggering ammount of men as the loss talley by the end of 43 didnt level out Survival % till 1945 and it was basically a grounded and beaten war for Germany, thus the losses of bombers got way less devistating. 1945 the suspected life expectancy of a bomber crew was talleyed seperately from all other aviator options and they used the 8th as a basis to divide the numbers up. Even after talleying just the 8ths losses, the average survival rait was 32% for the war. Realistically that number was fudged a bit as they lost track of pilot crews durring the timeframe of "Catch 22". Realistically the losses were higher, its suspected that US Bomber command suffered a 82% attrition rait.
American fighter losses are configured in as well, and the 8th's fighters were often new trainees as the Ace pilots were often pulled for training and PR for a while before sending them back into the mix. "Attached losses count" is in the doctrine, its like how the 21st armored detachment a Tank Destroier detachment was with the 101st Airborn durring battle of the bulge. They got bashed and battered and were nocked down to a mere 5 tanks, when they ran out of fuel they planned to place them as forward bunkers, the crews left the tanks or were ambushed by rocket attacking flanks. The crews fought well, but they get no credit, same for the 18 man detachment that warned about the German advance 2 days before Germany encircled the 101st, they kept holding there ground till they ran out of options.
Its why American loss records seem so weird, its not as if we dont admit to losing the manpower, its the statistics that make it sound so skewed. They used numbers of survivors as the defining answer that the equipment was doing better. If it was failing or the vehical survived and the crew didnt thats a problem as well.
Also worth mentioned that because the British themselves were bombed by the Germans and went through that experience of losing civilians to bombing raids, this hardened their hearts against the Germans and were eager for revenge and thus were much less sympathetic to German civilian casualties than the Americans were.
In comparison to how much we bombed the Germans the luftwaffes bombings were trivial.
@@Mong-Clizzy Tell that to Warsaw and the Spanish in the civil war.
The British would use pathfinder planes such as Mosquitoes to fly in before the main bomber force at low altitude and drop flares onto the desired target for the following bombers. This way they targeted strategic points with great accuracy.
The RAF did not use Mosquitos to low level mark anything until No 5 Group and 617 Squadron did it in the last year of the War!! If the Mosquitos couldn't see the target or the bombers at high altitude couldn't see the markers, the raid was normally a total failure (and there were a lot more failures than successes!!!). Mosquito Marking started with the OBOE Blind Bombing System in late 1942, the Aircraft normally flew at 30,000 feet and their mean miss distance was 680 Yards from the aiming point for the Mark 1 System. The system was not easy to use and the Oboe equipment had 50% in flight failure rate. The Mark 2 was a bit better with a mean miss distance of 380 Yards. OBOE only worked if you were within line of sight of a Ground Station(s), so for any target past the Ruhr (before December 1944) you had to use dead reckoning navigation unless you were in a pathfinder aircraft fitted with H2S radar. Mean miss distance between aiming point and bomb impact point with the 10cm Mark III set was 2.2 miles. For the 3cm Mark III set it was 1.7 Miles (which was around the same for the US 3cm H2X set).
@@richardvernon317 the RAF was using low altitude pathfinders in mosquitoes from at least 43 onwards with 627 squadron which was transferred to No.5 Group in 44 so at least the last 2 years of combat.
Within Essen there was still Krupps, virtually intact after nearly three years of attack.
page 158
Royal Air Force 1939-1945 Vol II
@@nickdanger3802 Until 5th March 1943 and the first full scale Oboe attack.
@@ussenterprisecv6805 627 Squadron was a standard 8 Group LNSF decoy squadron until April 1944 when they were transferred to 5 Group. 105 and 139 Squadron were 2 Group light Bomber units until June 1943 and didn't do anything with the Main Force until then. 109 Squadron was high level OBOE only. 105 Squadron became the second Oboe unit, while 139 were a decoy force until early 1944 when H2S was fitted to their aircraft and they started toing marking for long range Mosquito operations. Don Bennett was totally against low level marking of defended targets. The Dive marking was a 617 Squadron / 5 Group thing and it didn't start with Mosquitos until April 1944!!!
last time I was this early, America was British
Great comment!
Nowadays they tend to larp as 5% Irish American or something like that
Last time i was this early, England was Roman
@@NotNormal654 even better!
@@The_Beefcake_Comethim 80% ethnically irish from the USA. Thats more than the average person in Ireland
In fairness to the P-47 as an escort fighter, USAAF doctrine had forbidden the development of fighter drop tanks early in the war, because "the bombers could defend themselves over the target" per the Bomber Mafia types.
Not true
7:58 - 'The 8th Air Force performed the majority of raids over Germany..." - That's complete BS. RAF Bomber Command were conducting regular raids on targets based in Germany as early as Oct 1939. RAF Bomber Command also dropped three times the bomb tonnage on targets within the German reich as the US 8th AF did during the course of the war.
The misnomer that the US 8th AF performed precision bombing in the day while the RAF resorted to carpet bombing at night is also BS. Both were equipped with the Norden Bomb Sight, and it's results on getting the bombs 'in the pickle barrel' were massively blown out of proportion for allied moral purposes.
For example: The USAAF would use the tactic of a 'lead bomber' in a box formation to get a sight on the objective target, that lead bomber would then release its bombs and signal 'bombs away' to the rest of the flight who would drop their bombs on that command...wether they were over the target or not - effectively saturating a target area in a 5 mile radius of the target with their ordinance - i.e: carpet bombing.
RAF Bomber Command's tactics were different, they utilised 'pathfinders' (usually Mosquitos or Beaufighters) to fly ahead of a bomber formation at lower altitude and mark out the target area with flares. The Bomber formation would then form up into a 'bomber stream' to pass through that area and drop their payloads within the marked out area. A different approach to the same problem, but it is important to emphasise that one was no better, or yielded less civilian casualties, than the other.
"Within Essen (all of 60 miles/90k inside Germany) there was still Krupps, virtually intact after nearly three years of attack."
page 158 Royal Air Force 1939-1945 Vol II
SPAATZ: Which had the more effect in the defeat of Germany, the area bombing or the precision bombing ~
GOERING: The precision bombing, because it was decisive. Destroyed cities could be evacuated but destroyed industry was difficult to replace.
SPAATZ: Did the Germans realize that the American Air Forces by intention did only precision bombing ?
-5
GOERING ~ Yes. I planned to do only precision bombing myself at the beginning.
pdf Goering Interrogation - Jewish Virtual Library
buddy he was talking about U.S. bombing very clearly
@@Assist.... even if he is solely talking about USAAF bombing, the statement is still inaccurate. The 8th Air Force did not do the majority of it’s over Germany. Like the RAF, it’s targets were all over occupied Europe.
On the WW2 podcast "we have ways of making you talk", they did a series on the USAAF bombing campaign.
A good summary they made was that, due to the weather conditions mitigating the benefits of the Nordern bombsight, the US ended up doing imprecise precision bombing whilst the RAF, having honed their night time raids, were precision area bombing - the end result on the target being the same.
The other main point that was made was that in late 43 and early 44 the USAAF had the largest impact upon the Luftwaffe's fighter command. A combination of targetting the production facilities with the bombers, drawing out the defending fighters for the Mustang escorts, then the escorts themselves hitting targets of opportunity on the homeward journey.
It was interesting listen.
James and Al are treasures
Neither was really better or worse. They were part of a combined strategy that neither could have done alone.
Those boys in the 8th Air Force knew from day one what their mission was: strategic, daytime bombing over the most heavily defended terrain on Earth. They knew the odds were against them. In short order they knew their chances, as an intact crew, of making it to 25 completed missions was less than one-in-four. They knew all of that, and they did it anyway. They did it because that was what the war demanded of them.
Just under 8k of the vaunted Avro Lancasters were made during the war. Compare that to the B-17, of which there were over 8k of the “G” model alone. Britain had nothing like the production capacity of America. The 8th Air Force did that job, knowing that they were going to have no better than a 50-50 shot of making it back to base on any given raid, much less home. Why? Because America had the ability, as macabre as this is to say, to sustain that sort of punishment in terms of men and materiel in the air that British simply did not. They did that mission so that the British heavy-bombers could be used most effectively in the nighttime bombing campaign; otherwise, the RAF would have had to absorb those daytime casualties which would have likely been unsustainable.
AAF Command knew from the get-go that what they were telling those men to do was tantamount to suicide, but it had to be done because, as is so often the case in war, what other option did they have?
Also, british bombers were more vulnerable to german fighters and AA, the b17s often times only got destroyed, because the entire crew was killed. B17s were such a good bomber build, that most times they came back, but barely any crew survived. Lancasters hat fewer defensive gunners, were slower and bigger targets than the b17 thats also why they agreed to the combined tactical bombing.
@@LeroxYT, that’s an excellent point that I forgot to mention. By the time the B-17G was in service they had upped the defensive gun emplacements from seven to thirteen along with an upgraded armor package as well. Also, correction to my previous post. It was over 12k total production for all models of the B-17 and over 8k of the “G” model.
@@LeroxYT i believe there were several cases where the B-17 came home with no crew alive, or in one case, no crew at all (Alive or dead), because it was a good enough air frame it could glide and crash land uncontrolled and not explode.
The British were doing predominantly night time bombing since before the US entered the war. The Germans gave up day time bombing early on in the war and switched to night time carpet bombing of British cities, simply because it was too costly for too little gain, just as they had done in WW1. Any advantage in daytime visibility was negated by poor accuracy and increased loss rate. On a cost benefit analysis, night time carpet bombing made more sense. Carpet bombing of industrial neighbourhoods was an idea floating around since before the war and was known about by most airforces.
America was warned about day time losses when It began its campaign but was confident, with its bombers bristling with guns, that it could fend off German attacks. Of course this failed miserably and the entire campaign was grounded for a while after the Schweinfurt and Ragensburg raids, that incurred unsustainable loss rates for virtually no gain. It was more important to sell the campaign to the American public, on the Grounds that factories were being destroyed rather than civilians, than it was for the British and their public. After constant German Bombing of British cities, the British Public were in no mood for such niceties. Curiosity there was no qualms amongst the US public when it came to Japanese civilian casualties, in this theatre it was open season!
@@christskingdomiscoming5964 I also think the morale element of night bombing is understated, imagine not being able to sleep without worry of a bomb crashing through your roof.
The animation and editing of these clips are amazing. Hats off to your whole team for their hard work! Love this channel and the knowledge i get from it. 👍
My great grandfather also flew in a Lancaster bomber (at the age of 18). The back side of his plane was blown off but he still flew back. I have a lot of respect for him
Avro Lancaster's had some kind of electronic guiding that helped them if they were near the target, or if they have missed the target.
During the Allied bombing of Romania, Axis forces made an airfield in Zrenjanin, Yugoslavia (now Serbia). That airfield was a first line of defense of Allied bombers. The airfield was abandoned when the Germans were retreating in 1944.
In October 1943 Allied started bombing German troops stationed in Yugoslavia. They started bombing city of Niš. And speaking of Niš, the Niš incident that you covered in some of your previous videos I can tell you that incident occurred on November 7th 1944. There was marking of anniversary of October Revolution, and Soviet's organized parade, along with Yugoslav partisans. But before that, Niš was liberated on October 14th 1944. Six days later Belgrade, and Vrbas were liberated, while Novi Sad was liberated on 23rd of October 1944.
Also since you mentioned B-17,B-24, P-47, and P-51, there are interesting things about them as well. Believe it or not, Yugoslavia received at the final stages of war P-38 Lighting, and also a B-17, while P-47's and P-51 D's were received after WWII. For B - 17 there is a story that it landed on Sombor airfield (today's Serbia) on April 30th 1945, and also same day landed a P-38. Since there were Soviet and Yugoslav crew operating on that airfield one rumor says that B-17 was just a couple of days in Yugoslav air force before it was sent to USSR, while other says that it was in service in Yugoslav air force for one year. After that it was sent to museum. As for P-38, the plane was in service in Yugoslav air force for one year. After that it was sent to museum cause there were no spare parts for that airplane. Now it's in the depths of museum of aviation in Belgrade.
P-47's, and P-51 D mustang's were received after WWII, like I have told. There were seven P-51 D mustangs and also four B-24's that were in Yugoslav air force, believe it or not.
These were some interesting historical details and things.
I love pea salad
@@Playing096 Bon appetite, dear friend.
@@Harikejn thank you dear brother
@@Playing096 Yes dear brother or sister. You can correct me if I made a mistake.
The thing is, we had a plane that allowed us to get away with daytime bombing raids, that being the De Havilland mosquito. The reason it was so effective was because it was made from wood, meaning German radar had a rather difficult time seeing it. We abused that fact… extensively
Mosquito was a light bomber. Most of them could only carry a 2000lb bomb load. The RAF only had an operational force of around 300 of them at the end of the war, verses 600 Halifax's and 1300 Lancaster's.
@@richardvernon317 the mosquito was regularly used to drop 4000 pound bombs on Germany
@@Randomfactsofwar Not before February 1944 and only with the B Mk XVI with the Merlin 70 engines. There is a load of Bullshit written about the Mosquito as a Bomber!! The total number of operational B Mk XVI's never exceeded around 80 airframes with the first of them not hitting the four squadrons equipped with the version of the aircraft until early 1944. The Mosquito could do 400MPH...for a very short time before you cooked the crap out of the engines. To get to Berlin and back with any bombload you had to fly at a cruising speed of between 280 and 320 MPH. Fast enough to outrun anything but a seriously hot rodded German night fighter at night, but absolutely no good in Daylight against a FW-190 unless you had a lot of cloud to hide in. The Squadron Operations Record Books for the Mosquito Bomber Squadrons tell a somewhat different story to what you will find in Books written at the time like Low Attack or post war. The aircraft had a 7.3% loss rate in 1942/43 in Daylight raids and the only reason that it wasn't higher was most of the raids in 1943 before the two squadrons were transferred to 8 Group night ops were launched late in the day, with a time on target at dusk and a return to base in twilight and darkness (normally with as much low overcast as possible and targets with any kind of light flak defences were avoided like the plague). The total number of Cookies dropped by the Mosquito Bomber force in WWII was around 5000!! The Lancaster Force in Bomber Command at the start of 1944 could do that in around 10 missions (plus drop a butt load of other bombs as well). Oh and the Mosquito's could fly from the UK to Berlin and back twice in a night!! Yep, a small number of Mosquitos did do that!! On two nights only in the whole WAR with 12 aircraft doing it twice on each night. (once in February 1945 and the second time in the March of 1945 when the tried to put 150 Mosquitos over Berlin. They actually managed 142 (plan was to turn around 20 aircraft, the ground crews only managed to do 12!!)
DH98 Mosquito PR.XVI/B.XVI
Similar to respective Mk IX models, with pressurised cockpit. 433 PR.XVI, 400 B.XVI (powered either by Merlin72/73 or 76/77). Most B.XVI with bulged bomb bay door for 4,000 lb bomb. Max weight (B.XVI) 25,200 lb.
BAE Mosquito page
It was not invisible to radar actually. It was just that German radar technology was kinda crap, mosquitos would fly under it, and when they were discovered were often too fast to be caught
With raids following on, day and night, the defensive luftwaffe had little respite. Both planes, and pilots were worn down, and fuelstocks exhausted.
Early in the war the RAF found it impossible to survive over Germany in daytime, by the end, they were also making daylight raids. Usually of specific targets, and undertaken by the fast flying mosquito.
As for targets, a lot has to be laid at the door of ACM Harris, who preferred area bombing, to going for particular industries. He could be rather stubborn on this issue.
Great video but the ad having better animation than the core of the video is just hilarious to me
Love to see your videos, and Can see you guys are getting better all the time😊
you forgot a thing that hurt us bombing raids was the us fighter pilots where more focused on getting kills and because of this the germans would enact decoy planes to lure away use pilots leaving the bombers unprotected
This was true somewhat early in the war, but by late ‘43 to early ‘44 it was almost an anachronism at that point. What really hurt in terms of fighter escort is that, to the best of my knowledge, until the advent of the P-51D the Allies didn’t really have an airframe that could get all the way to the industrial heartland of Germany or to Berlin and back while still being able to carry the fuel and munitions necessary to engage the Luftwaffe on anything close to approaching fair terms. The “D”-model Mustang changed all of that. It enabled the fighter escort to fly above the bombers and more or less out of the range of German flak cannons. As soon as the flak lifted for the incoming Luftwaffe fighters the P-51Ds would return to their escort stations and engage the incoming Messerschmitts and Fokke-Wolfs with surprising efficiency. The 332nd Fighter Group (the Tuskegee Airmen) were among the most famous to use this tactic, losing only 27 bombers to enemy fighters during seven separate escort missions over the course of 179 total escort missions for the Fifteenth Air Force flying out of Allied-held air bases in Italy versus an average of 45 for other fighter groups. (Per the U.S. Air Force Historical Research Agency)
Red tails? Lol, in reality bomber escorts stayed close to formation and don't pursuit German Luftwaffe as much as that movie make it out to be. It's one of the reason why "The big week" operation was developed.
that belief is probably outright false as I have not read any actual historical information about such tactic besides guesses and conjecture. In real life, because of the high altitude, contrails are very visible and thus US escorts would have seen both the decoy and the actual attacking force from far away; thus splitting up their own force to attack both. Besides, in the end Allied Command (correctly) concluded it was better to chase down and kill Luftwaffe's pilots, using the bombers as bait.
@@halo3063 I’m not going off of the movie, just giving information that the Air Force has published publicly. No one with half a brain believes that the 332nd “never lost a bomber”; it simply isn’t true, and the Air Force has even published the airframe serial numbers (along with crew totals) of the 27 bombers and dates in which they were lost to combat the legend that continues to persist. Then-Col. Benjamin O. Davis said he knew that the rumors of the 332nd never losing a bomber weren’t true, but that the belief among some, not all but some, bomber crews to the contrary was good for morale then he was inclined to let the rumors continue for that reason alone.
Now, if that lower total number of losses compared to the average of other contemporary fighter groups is because the Fifteenth Air Force was flying out of Italy, thus not having to travel over the majority of occupied Western Europe, I don’t know. I simply don’t have the data that would confirm that, but it would make sense from a logical point of view.
@@IvyPoisoned1246 Apology, I was responding to the original comment. I agreed with what you said.
@@halo3063 No worries. My mistake also for misunderstanding. *^_^*
Didn't mention that us Brits switched to nighttime bombing at the beginning of the war after heavy daytime losses.
Also, Bomber Command managed to improve it's accuracy to the point where Lancasters could support ground troops round the time of D Day.
Didn't mention it because it isn't true, Lanc's were flying daylight ops as late as July 42.
RAF heavies resumed daylight ops after the USAAF cleared the sky.
@@nickdanger3802cleared by the P-51D powered by a British Rolls Royce engine
@@bobbybinns379 Where was the "British Rolls Royce engine" made ?
Who paid for it ?
@@nickdanger3802 😂😂 it was designed by the British. It doesn’t matter where it was made - if it hadn’t been designed by the British it wouldn’t have mattered whether it was made in the US or on the moon - without it the P-51 would have remained unable to escort the USAAF bombing raids.
@@nickdanger3802 the British also gave the US technologies like cavity magnetron radar through the Tizard mission. Are you also going to say that the US should get equal credit for the discovery of this simply because they manufactured something they were given the blueprint to? Complete nonsense.
Absolutely love the way you integrated your sponsor into the video. Ill say shamelessly that you got me to stop fast-forwarding to double check the imagery
Really? You love integrated advertisements?
Which method is better?
Combine mixing
Love the material! You guys are the best
The Dresden numbers were fluffed up by German propaganda during the war it’s actually 75,000… because of the fluffed numbers the RAF pilots didn’t get there own memorial until like 2004 there’s a good doco about it called Lancaster if you want to know more, this also holds a special place in my heart due to my family history of ww2.
its called a war crime, why celebrate the immolation of nearly 100k civilians who were fleeing death and worse at the hands of the russians...
As depicted in Masters Of The Air
Brilliant show isn’t it
Which was just Hollywood crap for the thick flag-wavers.
@@racoonsgowild2971really?? It was absolutely appalling US propaganda cod-history nonsense.
I remember watching something about D-day. After the landings in Normandy and push to secure more land, the Americans took to mass saturation bombing to soften German defences and armour. Some of the bombs they dropped would land as far as 3 miles away from their target. The result was the biggest blue on blue incident in American history but the bombing, however inaccurate, did destroy German defences.
Well done Simple History, once again you exceeded my expectations. I always found history of warfare very fascinating especially the Second World War from geopolitical to technological to strategic and tactical perspectives. Both the Americans and the British had their own pros and cons with their respective approach but they wouldn't have succeded thanks to their combined efforts.
My great grandfather was a rear gunner on a handley page Halifax in the RAF, I don’t remember much of what he said, but I remember he said he flew missions to bomb Dresden
You missed that part of the reason why the British didn't mind so much about bombing the cities - is that the UK cities were being bombed by the Germans.
Your example - Dresden - Was actually retaliation against the German bombing of Coventry... Making the point that if the Germans were willing to bomb UK cities in such a form, the UK would react with greater numbers of bombs.
No one likes the fact that thousands died there - but in a "them or us" situation, ultimately - you have to make sure it's not us.
The carpet bombing accuracy of the British however - was also not intentional. It was found that only 1/5 bombers dropped their payloads within 5 miles of their intended target.
With that sort of accuracy - the only thing that you're ever going to reliably hit IS a city.
Lastly - And IMHO the most interesting part of city bombing....
Those in the cities started to blame the leaders more than the attackers for the bombing - and started to resent those living in the countryside as they were largely unaffected by it.
This didn't just reduce moral, but also encouraged in fighting.
To be fair, during the phony war it was not the Germans who began bombing British cities first, it was the other way around.
The Germans were trying to be more selective in their targets than the British. Coventry was a munitions producing area, if i recall. Becoming sloppier in response to enemy carelessness or specific targeting of civilians was more a German than British thing.
As someone else said, the Germans, to their credit, tried to be precise with their raids. It's just that Britian camouflaged everything and it was also dark. Coventry had arms manufacturing assemblies. Dresden had only people. It was of no military industrial value, the British just wanted to bomb them. Same with the Americans fire bombing urban districts in Japan.
Germans bombing british civilians? 😊😊😊
The British retaliates? 🤬🤬🤬
The cherry picking is more obvious than an american daylight raid.
@@barccy Dresden had munitions factories, a rifle factory, a machine gun factory and a ball bearings factory. It's not Britain's fault they happened to have perfect wind for a large fire, no German interceptors were sent, only 2 flak batteries fired, nor is it Britain's fault Dresden only had 1 public bomb shelter. As it is Harris didn't even want to continue area bombing by that point saying that Berlin was the only city left worth bombing all all other cites weren't worth the bones of a single British grenadier. Stalin wanted to force a refugee crisis to further hamper German logistics.
The norden bombsight wasn’t as good as the us military claimed and the technology behind it had already been stolen by both the Germans and the British. Postwar suggests there was actually very little difference in bomber accuracy and the biggest issue was actually getting to the target in the first place which the RAF were doing much more reliably at night thanks to pathfinder aircraft and some clever electronic ranging.
American Ego for you
Within Essen there was still Krupps, virtually intact after nearly three years of attack.
page 158
Royal Air Force 1939-1945 Vol II
I recently watched "Lords of the Air": Tom Hanks and Steven Spielberg keep the quality bar! And here is your video on the topic.
I think you mean “Masters Of The Air”.
@@ShadowReaper-pu2hxYes, that's right. Thanks for correcting me. The translator translated it inaccurately.
@@Eldar-sy2vw5hm9x, you’re welcome.
I know it's nitpicky but the wings of the P-47s at 6:30 look more like wings from F6F's. Late model P-47s had clipped wings but these shown are early razorbacks.
How they drew the "shocked face" on the front of the lancaster in the thumbnail is so funny to me. He's just a lil guy 😮
Would love to see you cover the "Forgotten 15th" US Army Air Corps!
I Like watching your videos because they are interesting to watch and lean about would war 1 and world war 2
Speel cheek
The way I see it. It was a day shift and night shift for the bomber corps. It was a war and they brought it. War will result in civilian casualties regardless of intentional or accidental. Just pray your city wasn’t a priority target
Well done for getting quite a complex narrative into such a neat and short video. Understandably, there are some missing elements, so a couple of points:
Despite all the propagandist hype, the Norden bomb-sight, in practical use, was actually about as accurate as throwing a dart over your shoulder, with your back to the board.
We actually did have a long-range escort fighter quite early in the war, at least potentially. American engineers had fitted drop-tanks to Spitfires and shown that they were both capable and effective in such a role. 2 idiots stopped us from using these: one who took over RAF fighter command AFTER the Battle of Britain, and the one in charge of the USAAF on it's arrival in Britain. The former didn't want 'his' Spitfires in such a role, the latter thought they were unnecessary. Fortunately for a lot of ground forces, both were replaced before D-day - the same, sadly, can't be said for a lot of aircrews.
And also there’s a story if you read “Masters Of The Air” or listen to it on audible and it explains the both of them
The Commonwealth and US bombing forces were complimentary. Someone's got to do the night shift whilst those on days rest and rearm. Who's method was better just leads to headaches and misplaced jingoism. Respect is owed to everyone that did their bit be they British Commonwealth (Carribbean, Canadian, Aussie or Brit), French, Polish or American, flight or ground crew. The RAF flew Fortress Mk3 (B17s) in a Bomber Support role, often with a German or Austrian Jewish RAF specialist to fool and divert night fighters away from the bomber stream.
Honestly both methods have their advantages but honestly it depends on what your trying to do, if you’re going for accuracy then day raid it is, but if your trying to avoid detection then night raids might be better.
I watched a video on the German night trains, they’d try to follow the bomber movement by having night fighters pinpointing the Bombers locations.
The effects of incendiary bombs dropped on Dresden greatly exaggerated the fire and destruction afterwards as opposed to dropping only explosive bombs and bombs tend to set off anything that is combustible in the area because it burns such a high temperature
TY
Hey simple history, I would like to say thank you. I know I bought it but I got my yootooz on my birthday! Which almost feels like a gift in of itself. I’ve been a fan for years and he sits on my desk
Fun fact: In Winston Churchill's VE day speech, the contributions of Bomber Command were never mentioned, only Fighter Command.
7:37 I didn’t know that each gun could independently aim, I thought they were fixed
Btw my grandfather’s uncle was in the 8th, yes the bloody 8th. Also the show “Masters Of The Air” is based off the 8th air force (idk the full name of the 8th)
I’ve read extensively on this topic and except for a way to late attack on Romanian oil, it was of marginal utility especially considering the vast resources allocated to 4 engine bombers and the manpower required
SPAATZ: Which had the more effect in the defeat of Germany, the area bombing or the precision bombing ~
GOERING: The precision bombing, because it was decisive. Destroyed cities could be evacuated but destroyed industry was difficult to replace.
SPAATZ: Did the Germans realize that the American Air Forces by intention did only precision bombing ?
-5
GOERING ~ Yes. I planned to do only precision bombing myself at the beginning.
pdf Goering Interrogation - Jewish Virtual Library
The Canadian bombers would adopt tactics that lead to them having the highest survival rate among the allied bomber fleets, though there is debate about how this affected their accuracy.
What specifically did the Canadians do differently from their British and other Commonwealth counterparts? AFAIK their doctrine didn’t differ to that of any other squadron in Bomber Command (although if the Canadians did do things somewhat differently, I’d be glad to know).
?
@@garystu9878They hid in the middle of British and US bomber groups. 🤣
What tactics? I'm Canadian and I don't know about this. We also had the least amount of bombers so it would make sense we would suffer the least amount of casualties.
Canada provided an entire Bomber Group No 6 based in Yorkshire utilising the HP Halifax all paid for by Canada. Australia had three dedicated bomber squadrons within Bomber Command utilising the Lancaster the Free French Air Force utilised the Halifax within No6 Group and there were Polish bomber Squadrons with Bomber Command.
6:40 They actually did try to solve it using a B17 with just machine guns, but it was too heavy for it reach the bombers in time
3:17 that is the ye olde pub 3:17
'By March 1944, it became clear that the area offensive had fallen short of its goals and that Bomber Command was facing destruction by night fighters just as earlier it had faced destruction by day fighters.' - Noble Frankland, historian and Bomber Command veteran
now we need a vid on Arthur "Bomber" Harris to go with this video
One of the short comings with the air campaign was the belief that the B17, flying in full formation, could protect themselves. When in reality, the B17 needed fighter cover. Success and survivability increased when bomber units were protected by fighters.
USAAF lost 60 or more aircraft on quite a few raids in 1944, the difference was 600 plus aircraft were doing the raids not 250 to 300. USAAF lost 2000 plus bombers in the first 6 months of 1944 (plus a thousand fighters over Germany alone!!!).
@@richardvernon317
BRITISH AND AMERICAN BOMBER LOSSES
HC Deb 10 May 1944 vol 399 c1934W1934W
§Mr. Stokes asked the Secretary of State for Air how many British and American bombers, respectively, were lost over Germany and Northern Europe during the first four months of 1944.
§Sir A. Sinclair During the first four months of 1944, 1,041 British and 1,117 U S.A.A.F. bombers operating from this country were reported lost over Germany and Northern Europe.
Would it have been prudent to have just launched fast fighters or fighter bombers or even fast bombers and thus they would be harder to shoot down than 4 engine bombers?
3:24 i saw this in a short not long ago lol
Intentionally targetting civilians is never justifiable, and all that results from doing so is further entrentching your enemies resolve to resist and over come you.
Can you please make a video on the Burmese civil war I want to know a quick history about it
Flak so thick you could walk on it
Both strategies had their own set of chalenges
Both had their flaws and advantages
Night- You can’t see the target leading to more collateral damage but less chance of fighter interception
Day- See the target and hit but the fighters also see you.
In the end both worked
Night you can see if you use pathfinders and ground scanning radar. And the main limiter for accuracy was the bombs themselves, only 7% of US bombs actually hit, a target being a 1000ft radius circle centred on that true target so even if it does nothing to the building, if it hits within the circle it counted as a hit. Per flight the 8th Airforce lost more bombers than the British. It's also worth noting that all other US bomber forces flew at night wherever possible, only Henry Miller forced his men to fly at daytime.
Please compare tonnage dropped, number of sorties flown, number of planes lost and enemy fighters destroyed.
I would say another important factor in the bombing was the mere fact that the brits were being bombed as well whilst the Americans managed to avoid getting bombed for obvious reasons. I feel that plays a role as your objectives and subjective emotions will be affected if you’re constantly under fire at home as well as on patrol.
'The idea of area bombing was to attack an aiming point which lay at the centre of a large area whose destruction would be useful. It was, in other words, a way of making bombs which missed the aiming point contribute to the destruction of the German war machine. Since nearly all the bombs were missing the aiming point, there was a certain logic about the idea.' - Noble Frankland, historian and Bomber Command veteran
BBC Thousand-bomber Raids
"These limitations were to become apparent before the new offensive was many weeks old. Meanwhile it was considered desirable to explain our intentions to the Americans. To this end a special review was prepared by the British Chiefs of Staff. 'Our policy at present,' it announced, 'is to concentrate upon targets which affect both the German transportation system and civilian morale, thus exploiting weaknesses already created by the blockade. Since the targets seleced lie within highly industrial and thickly populated areas the efect upon German morale is considerable. As oufr forces increase, intend to pass to a planned attack on civilian morale with the intensity and continuity which are essential if a final breakdown is to be produced."
page 378 Royal Air Force 1939-1945 Vol I
Nice video
Dont know why you asked the question of which method was more effective without providing some kind of answer instead of leaving the question unanswered
He explains it towards the end of the video if you pay attention
@@ryanstewart8157 I don’t think he did. Which did he say was better then in your opinion
P-47s became F4Fs or F6Fs in the dive at 6:39
The British were far more accurate. Even the USSBS - very dismissive of the RAF contribution admitted as much, though they deliberately chose an obscure way of stating it. Looking at the raids on Leuna, Zeitz and Ludwigshafen:
509,000 USAAF bombs at an average weight of 338 pounds
264,000 RAF bombs at an average weight of 660 pounds
The bombing accuracy for these raids - for bombs within the plant boundaries:
8th Air Force, visual bombing 26.8%
8th Air Force part visual/part instrument 12.4%
8th Air Force full instrument 5.4%
Bomber Command at night 15.8%
Weighted average (by bombs dropped) 12.6%
We can use these figures to calculate American accuracy.
Total bombs on target (509,000 + 264,000) x 12.6/100 = 99,717
British bombs on target 264,000 x 15.8/100 = 41,712
American bombs on target (99,717 - 41,712) = 55,686
Percentage of US bombs on target = (55.686*100)/509,000 = 10.9%
So we see that the British got nearly 50% more bombs on target than the Americans, and the heavy bombs dropped by the RAF - particularly the 4000-pounder ‘Blockbusters’ did vastly more damage - the American bombs were effectively useless. As the USSBS said:
Blast walls and reinforced concrete "dog houses" were useless against 4,000-lb. bombs, but prevented serious damage from near misses by 1,000-lb. bombs and were effective against even direct hits of 500-lb. and smaller bombs.
Vital process installations were so effectively protected by blast walls and reinforced concrete "dog houses" that essential, hard-to-replace equipment was seldom destroyed by the munitions generally employed. In a few instances, of which the Bottrop-Welheim (Ruhroel) hydrogenation plant is the most striking example, this destruction was accomplished. In two raids, 27 September and 31 October 1944, the RAF hit the high-pressure compressor house with three 4,000-lb. and eight 1,000-lb. bombs. The seven heavy compressors and boosters, through which was funneled every cubic foot of the hydrogen required for the process, were completely destroyed. The plant could not operate until new compressors were installed. This meant a twelve-month shutdown if new compressors had to be built and a delay of three months if replacements had to be "lifted" from another plant. The four subsequent attacks were unnecessary. The results may be compared with those at Leuna, which, after being hit by 1,643 tons of bombs in 22 attacks, could have reached 70 percent of normal production capacity within a few months without the importation of any new heavy equipment.
Initially the USAAF were allocated more oil targets than the RAF - IIRC it was something like 33 to the Americans and 27 to Bomber Command. By November 1944 all the RAF’s targets were adjudged to have been knocked out, so the bombing was halted temporarily; when it resumed the British took over some of the American targets which the USAAF was unable to destroy - and knocked those out too.
The prejudice against the RAF by the American analysts means that even the 50% superiority in accuracy is a severe underestimate, since it’s clear that they are including incendiaries - which can’t be aimed accurately - to minimise the British accomplishment.
I guess you're guaranteed to hit your target if the strategy is to just flatten the area
The prejudice of American analysts is always against any other country that the US tries to compete with. The US had plenty of warnings regarding Pearl Harbor but chose to ignore them because they didn't think the Japanese could succeed
@@The_Beefcake_Cometh the Germans civilian killed by the 8th Air force was estimate at 16000 killed accord to General Spark, the bombing of the German cities by R.A.F led to the killing between 350000 to 550000 civilians, worse for the R.A.F suffered 44.4% of 125000 men of Bomber Command death rate for the crews of Halifax, B 17 radar direction planes, Manchester and Lancaster Bombers, force, to be caught has a prisoner by the Germans for a R.A.F bomber crews was not a guarantee to reach a German POW camp many was murdered by the Germans Military.
@@bjornsmith9431 For all their chest beating, the Germans were really rubbish in the bombing contest. Though camping is more their sport to be fair, another thing we invented that others excelled better at.
@@The_Beefcake_Cometh the Germans Military was 20% mechanized armored force, the rest Bicycles, Horse, Mule and Donkey. The truth is the arrogance of the Germans militarist class elitists thinking there superior to all European race Latins, Slavs and Celtics, even in Science the German radar system, the Western Allies was two year farther than the Germans.
Is there any estimate as to how many planes exploded midair from bombs being struck?
I like your thinking but the arming and detonators were fairly reliable not to go off in mid air but there were a number of aircraft that were destroyed during crash landings because they still had bombs on board. Whether they got stuck in their racks or the crew was too wound to manually eject them.
@@theworkshopwhisperer.5902 I figured as much, but thought that with as many planes in the air being shot at inevitably one of them might have struck a bomb in just the right place at the right time.
Bombs are actually pretty tough. The standard American general purpose bomb during the war had a fill weight of about 51% high explosive. I’ll be generous and say that the bomb’s fuse makes up another 5%, and the rest of the bomb’s weight (44%, or 220 pounds in the case of a 500-pound weapon) was the solid steel outer casing. It would take a direct hit from a flak gun to set it off, fragments would have no effect.
Most mid-air explosions were caused by fuel tanks catching fire.
@@Shaun_Jones what about cannon rounds?
I wonder how many bombers were shot down by other bombers’ machine guns in their formation?
Fun fact say it and everyone will read it
Its obviously the methods from New Zealand, they utilized the strategic jet bomber "Bob Semple Tank"
Funny I was just watching masters of the air and finished an episode where they talked about that
I like how they use bombing campaigns against civilian targets to sell services.
Capitalism. Capitalism never changes.
By the end of the war, the USAAF discovered that night time incendiary raids were much more effective than daylight pinpoint bombing. Surely this should have been worth mentioning?
This is Masters of the Air
Let’s go a simple history video
I learned something
Everyone and their mother cries foul over the bombings of Japan, yet those same people justify the bombings of Germany. Got to love double standards.
No, I don’t think it’s the same people at all actually lmfao
@@grontelp77 It is the same people. Next time you encounter someone complaining about the bombings in Japan, ask them how they feel about the carpet bombings in Germany.
@@Princess_Celestia_ how do you feel about what Germany did to Rotterdam, or to London in 1940?
and nobody crying about Japan talks about how Japan treated China nor POWs, and how the bombings saved more Japanese and allied lives than they killed. And Japan only lost 1/3rd as many people in WW2 and Germany.
And nobody talks about how frequently Japan/German pilots shot at parachuting aircrew.
Especially after we found out all the horrible things Japan did and tried to cover up they did a Holocaust just like the Nazis and did alott of horrible human experiments
The pro's to day time bombing: You can see the targets better, less civilian deaths for the most part. Con's to day time bombing: Subject to mass amount of AA, subject to mass numbers of swarming fighter planes that have a clear line of sight on all bomber planes, and mass loss of life and bomber planes on the American side when the fighter planes reach their total limit of escorting the bomber planes to where there targets are.
The pro's to night time bombing: Much safer than day time bombings for the most part, and don't get swarmed by as many fighter planes during the day but still do by some that have the bomber planes in sight. Con's: Subject to spotlights and massive amount of AA fire, less accurate for bombing key locations of industry, much more collateral damage to cities and much more loss of civilian life's.
This sums up some of the pro's and con's to both bombing strats the allies used. Probably lot's of other pro's and con's to the strategies used.
When it comes to strategic bombing you really got to put yourself in the mind of what kind of aircraft you have. America had to be 17 which was literally designed to be able to withstand a very harsh amount of damage and still somehow make it home. Whereas you have the British who have lancasters they're built light and they're built fast they're not really built to withstand a lot of damage. It depends on the type of aircraft you have so let's say I have a B-17 or in this case all formation of b-17s. Designed to be strategic bombers meaning that they were built to go find a Target and bomb it. That was what they were designed for. Whereas you have the Lancaster that operated better for night operations where it was just dropped the bombs wherever you feel like it's going to make a difference and fly home without running into any problems... Hopefully.
And I noticed somebody said that the British had been bombed a lot by the Germans so they were less sympathetic I agree with that yesbut I also agree with the fact that Germany use the same strategy of night bombing as well but they also used they bombing as a strategy with stukas they used it with other aircraft as far as I'm aware of as well. But the bomber that they were using in Germany at the time was the he 111 it was designed to be a night bomber. That's why the pilot sits the way that he does that's why there's all that glass in the front because it's not built to withstand a lot of damage because it was built to be a night bomber it was built for blitzkrieg.
So let's take a look at defensive capabilities for a B-17 compared to a Lancaster. I've always stated this and I found that it was very crazy to me that it wasn't put on there when America did every bomber this way but if you take a look at the Lancaster it does not have a bottom turret the bottom of the plane is completely exposed to enemy fire, why is that it's a night bomber it doesn't really need it. Whereas the b-17s the b-24s b-29s all of these planes had a bottom Gunner, and why is that because they were built for strategic bombing which required for you to fly during the day. Therefore you needed 360° coverage on your aircraft.
In the end it's not about the strategy it's about how a aircraft was designed the B-17 and the Lancaster are two completely different aircraft when it comes to how they were designed and why they were designed. Again the biggest thing here is the fact that the B-17 was strategic where is the Lancaster was more that throw something at something and hope that it does something.
And you know I'm a B-17 freak so I've always loved the designer to be 17 but I've also always loved the design of the Lancaster because I have always been interested in for engine bombers now I will admit I do love me some good tri-engines but you don't really see a lot of those being used as bombers unless you go over to Italy.
So essentially I watched an entire video just to know the same thing I already know....which is nothing about what tactics was more effective. Great!
yeah bombing tatics have huge effects and pros vs control enter american e british aviation in history in night for american is difficul about vision weather and found target and more discussions
0:24 Yet didn't they themselves claim how the German strategic bombing campaign (The Blitz) was ineffective?
Go listen to the podcast We have ways to make you talk. There is 8 hours of them talking about the 8th air force, why the British bombed at night and why the Americans bombed during the day. The main reason why the Americans bombed during the day was due to the leaders of the American airforce strategic view they came to in the 30s that day time bombing was the way and they stuck to that. The turning point for the Americans was the getting fighter planes to protect the bombers.
Great Video! Below are the Timestamped Summaries from ChatWithPDF:
00:00🌟 Allies used strategic bombing in WWII to disrupt Germany's infrastructure and morale.
01:00🌙 British preferred nighttime bombing, Americans favored daytime raids.
02:00🧠 Brilliant offers interactive learning for critical thinking skills.
03:00💡 Data analysis led to improved bomber armor strategies.
04:00🔍 Americans aimed for city destruction, British focused on wider areas.
05:00🎯 Precision bombing faced challenges, area bombing targeted cities.
06:00✈ Fighter escorts were crucial for bomber protection.
07:00💥 Flack guns posed threats to bomber formations.
08:00⚔ Daylight raids incurred heavy losses for the US Air Force.
09:00🌆 Debate continues on the effectiveness of bombing tactics.
10:00💣 Controversy over civilian casualties in bombing campaigns.
11:00🕊 Allied bombing campaigns left German cities in ruins.
My grandfather was a survivor of Black Thursday.
AFAIK
German Firemen/fire fighters
Viewed British Bomber "Streams" as more devastating then US "Box" bombing
Because,
the US dropped their in bombs in one combined drop (everyone taking their cue from the lead bomber) and the fighter fighters could emerge from shelter and put out the fires
When the British bombed, it was a continuous 10-15 minute stream of bombs fanning out from the starting point , by the time the fire fighters could emerge the fires were well alight , and burned longer/harder to extinguish = more actual damage
PS - I'm not here to get into a UK/US pissing contest, IMHO the guys that flew daylight raids , before there were enough P-51's to escort them all the way, where some of the bravest that ever lived
When it comes to Effectiveness, both are good, but when it comes to Civilian Casualties, i think the Americans have inflicted fewer civilian casualties than the british, since they bomb in Daylight they have higher chance of hitting thier intended target rather than hitting civilians.
"Not so the Americans, who from first to last were determined to bomb by day and in the end achieved their object with conspicuous success."
page 1
Hyperwar Royal Air Force 1939-1945 Vol III
Schweinfurt
"Ball-bearings were, however, vital to the war machines of all the belligerents. if the supply of them to Germany or if their manufacture could be reduced or cut off completely, it would be impossible for her to continue the struggle. As early as November, 1942, the Ministry of Economic Warfare had estimated that more than half the ball bearings made in Germany came from the V.R.F. factories and the Fischer factory at Schweinfurt. there was also a factory at Stuttgart and others at Leipzig, Berlin and Elberfeld. France too possessed a number of small establishments. Operation 'SELFRIDGE', an assault on Schweinfurt, was therefore planned, but month after month passed and it was not executed: the technical difficulties were too great. The Air Ministry, however was determined that it should be as soon as they had been overcome."
page 25
"BEFORE many months of 1943 had passed, it became evident that to fulfil the main provisions of the (Pointblank) Directive issued at the Casablanca Conference, the 'progressive destruction and dislocation of the German military, industrial and economic system and the undermining of the morale of the German people', would prove a costly task, at least in daylight. The campaign opened badly, for in the early spring of 1943 and for some time to come the Fortresses of the United States Eighth Air Force, which had been placed under the direction of the British Chief of the Air Staff, acting as agent for the Combined Chiefs of Staff, had to operate without the comforting presence of long-range fighters as escort--for at that time thee were only in the preliminary stages of their development. The American bomber force was, in consequence, faced with a heavy and most perilous mission, and the first three months of 1943 proved that, despite the gallantry with which its crews sought to fulfill it, it was beyond their strength."
page 1
Royal Air Force 1939-1945 Vol III
Wingstop lore goes hard.
You think we'd be able to move past war but of course not.
b17 cross section next pls
Us Brits didnt have the American Norden bombsight, we had inferior shittier ones, we couldn’t precision bomb, not that we wanted to.
I think both where necessary it made it to where Germany could not sleep and allow them to gdt some breathing room just the cause of 24/7 bombing would drive you insane
So we killed a ton more in these bombing runs than the nukes ever did? That's crazy
just watched these guys at air cadets
Amazing the civilian casualties inflicted by the “Good Guys”. Documentary called Hellstorm changed my views on WW2
The norden bomb site was junk. Sperry had a far superior sight but norden had sperry discredited and wrapped up the contract
Both strategies were useful as it allowed round the clock raids which must have put a severe mental toll on the populations in the big German cities.
Hows about this.
Stealth and Precision, though neither is a silver bullet, will both always exist as military tactics so long as militaries exist
(The internationale unites the human race)