The movie artbook revealed that Sheryl doesn't immediately wake up and it took some time before Alto came back and her waking up. In fact that concert in the credit roll is the concert after she wakes up. Kawamori just wants to fill in the blanks for it.
Wings of Goodbye was my point of re-entry to the Macross series, ever since the original Macross that I watched on occasion when I was a kid. It began my actual venture to the series, by urging me to find False Songstress (and the tv series), which then led to a chance encounter with Do You Remember Love (which renewed my curiosity to the original SDF Macross). It also opened up my interest to other Satelight's works such as Aquarion, and other non-gundam mecha series. So I couldn't agree more when you said that it's a good entry point for Macross series. The duology (and the tv series by extension) also packs some of my favorite songs in the entire franchise as well. So very well integrated to the scenes they are, that most of the time I listen to the songs, it's either I could immediately recall the scene in my head, or feel like something is missing because the scene is not there to accompany the song. This is something I haven't felt again in a while, except maybe on Zettai Live's climax (I need to rewatch this one). Though I haven't really watched Macross 7 to completion, so the jury is still out. My favorite scene is probably when Alto synchronized with Sheryll's and Ranka's song that he was able to see everything in slow motion and everything that happened after that. This is exactly why I freaked out in excitement when Hayate experienced a similar thing in Zettai Live! On a sidenote, Jenius' appearance on Zettai Live felt amazing, especially having watched the original Macross and Do You Remember Love (and 7, partially). Jenius is still a goddamn bad ass genius pilot even in his advanced age, and it's glorious to see. Has been waiting for a glimpse of him when I first realized that one of the main pilots in Delta is his grandchild (I know he appeared in 7, but I haven't really watched 7 to the end, so, yeah...)
In the Macross Frontier (original spelling 'Flontier') TV series, the last story arc starts off with a HUGE reference to the OVA Prequel series 'Macross Zero', so much so that I recommend watching 'Macross Zero' before starting the final story arc of 'Macross Frontier' as this explains the original source of the viral infection that Ranka Lee has
The False Songstress was actually where the detour started, there were many changes made in the movie such as Major Osmar Lee revelling he was a pilot in the first battle against the Varja.
The Ozma reveal is basically just confirming something that was hinted at pretty heavily but never confirmed from the TV show. The *major* shakeup is at the very start, where Grace goes "don't forget what we're really here for, focus on the mission" and Sheryl replies "I got that", or words to that effect. That effectively sets up the plot for the first half of the second movie right there - because Sheryl really *is* a spy, just as she's accused of being; and can't deny it in front of Alto when they arrest her. Whether she knows that her song is attracting the Vajra is a different story though.
Damnnnn it's been a WHILE since Frontier came out ...... Just saw the short clip a few months ago, rreealllly miss this show but fkkking love it xD will be watching the Delta movie soon ~
For you all to know. Alto was supposed to choose Sheryl in TV series. Remember when Alto tried to say something to Sheryl in his house..? He was about to confess to her that time. If you dig in internet deep enough you would found interviews from kawamori that the TV series was "a compromise" between the producer and story writer. The producer (kawamori) want to make Alto x Sheryl from the start but the story writer support Alto x Ranka and don't want Ranka to be left behind. The production team was divided into those 2 side. The producer and story writer then agree to make tv series an open ending with a promise if the series got popular enough to get movies, the story would follow what Kawamori envisioned. And that's how we got the much greater 2 movies.
Not sure, but several interviews that were discussed when the series ended with the triangle unclear there were a LOT of faked interviews pushing things towards Sharon being the OTP. It turned out to be the case, but that doesn't change that there was a lot of BS floating around that many don't realize was made up whole cloth.
As stated in the comment before, there were fake interviews. Further research and actual interviews reveal there never was any division in production team nor "compromise", all storylines were planned from the beginning.
I think Frontier and 7 could really re-invigorate Macross in areas where it was limited by copyright in the past (Harmony Gold in the USA etc). I have to say I prefer the movies purely for the presentation of the concerts and for all my favorites surviving. Poor Klan in the TV version of events.... The YF-29 remains my favorite design from Macross to date.
I feel you, but the death episode that you are hinting at in the TV series is flat out one of the best episodes in the history of the franchise. Half of me is happy that certain characters survive, but man... you lose out on so much character development as a result.
Really solid discussion overall, thanks for sharing your thoughts. You do kind of claim that these movies can stand alone then explain pretty well why they don't though. I did like them both, including many of the changes, additions, glow-ups, and obviously phenomenal music, but on the whole they present a rushed, messier, more awkward, and overall less compelling narrative. The problem is that the series, though not perfect, was a really cohesive and well paced story. While there was definitely some side-content that could be trimmed, fitting enough of the relevant story beats into two movies was never going to work. I suspect that's why they completely changed the plot of the second movie from the series, but in doing so (and in setting up for it in the first movie) they hastily retro-fitted important plot points and forewent character development or just swept them aside with implication and info-dump in some cases, none of which is satisfying or compelling storytelling. Contrasting with the series, where the plot and characters are all so strong and integral to one another, the movies just end up feeling hollow. Of course, they're still worth watching if you really like Macross Frontier, because they are more of that world and story, just less effectively conveyed. Now, even more of a personal preference than analysis (though obviously everything I've said is just my interpretation), but I really didn't like the ending. Alto throughout everything was shown as being kind of oblivious to both girls' feelings for him and his own for them, as well as being a bit emotionally closed off in general, so him randomly telling Ranka that she's basically just a friend to him and then telling Sheryl that he loves her (which is unambiguous if you can read lips and understand a bit of Japanese, because it was very carefully animated), was just out of character. It's not that I don't think Alto and Sheryl 'belong' together or whatever (I do have very controversial opinions about that love triangle, but not relevant) there's definitely well written and acted chemistry there, it's just that that scene in general felt so artificial and forced to me. Then him getting zooped away possibly never to be seen again with only shaky/implied explanations just seemed like a lacklustre attempt to slap on a coat of tragedy to the ending at the last minute. But hey, maybe that worked for some people, I'm not gonna judge.
I personally run with the old theory that the series are the "actual events", with the movies being "in universe movies" retelling the events- after (Neo?) Hollywood got done with them. (Also kinda put Macross II in the "in-'verse movies" pile; it was a miniseries someone made about what they thought was gonna happen... Hey, the Macross-verse streaming platforms need content too)
You can comfortably treat *everything* as in-universe historical fiction - or sci-fi. It even works for explaining how the Macross 7 show is so cheesy - its a TV show about a band created for the show... that grew so popular they outlasted the show and kept releasing albums for decades afterwards. Did Basara *really* convert a whole Meltran fleet into panty-flinging fangirls on the spot? Maaaaaayyyybe. Maaaaaybe not. But he did it on the show and it became a meme. (This also gives fanfic authors an out for writing Basara as a real human instead of how he's portrayed in the show.) Does this help at all with interpreting an actual official history? Not one bit, the only help for that is "what does future productions go with as a default" and even that gets weird. See how the game Macross 30 mixes and matches bits of Frontier TV and the Frontier Movies to get the perfect mix of backstory events to have *all* the characters alive and in possession of information that wasn't discovered until after some of them were dead in either continuity.
According to Kawamori both of them are Hollywood retellings. For that matter the movies tend to be referenced more than the TV series for any Macross entry.
@@brightlight8852 DYRL is explicitly not what actually happened, but the designs are what the Studio Nue crew wanted things to look like, so that's what the characters look like ever since. Labyrinth of Time is essentially a continuation of the Frontier Movies, but it's not sure if anything else references them at all. And all VFs that show up anywhere are canon, and if they didn't show in the TV shows then they were developed afterwards. Don't take the presence of an YF-29 to be a reference to Sayonara No Tsubasa's *plot*. Basically the only way to tell which way around Frontier went is Michael or Brera turning up in a future TV show. Or both, and wouldn't that screw everyone's plans up. (they both show up in Macross 30, but that's in a weird situation in general.)
@Winchester1979 You're wrong. The Vajra planet is shown in Delta movies and it looks like how it does in the 2nd movie. It's also mentioned in some model kit stories. Their cellphone game uta Macross also acknowledges the movie ending as being the true ending. Labyrinth of Time directly references the Frontier movie ending. But Ranka and Sheryl's relationship was taken from the TV series. The movie and the TV series for SDF have a similar deal and the movie just moves said fight to the end of the movie. Neither the movie nor the series shows what really happened in full but rather you'd have to combine the details from both to get the full story. The song DYRL is the song that was sung in that battle. Klan Klan mentions as much in Frontier. YF 29 is canon as its not just referenced in the Delta it's also mentioned in Uta Macross and various other novels etc as being Alto's ship. Also YF-29 Durandal also canonically existed at that time and SMS was well known for giving its members the best equipment available. So Alto being an ace pilot having one is reasonable. Alto at one point in time used to pilot the VF-25 Messiah but then he upgraded to the YF-29 Durandal It's also the Valkyrie shown in Labryinth of Time, as beloning to Alto. The Macross Frontier TV series is canonically an in universe retelling same as the movies. In fact, ironically enough in the Frontier TV series Ozma even calls out the Macross Zero as not being accurate to what really happened, as the actual controversial events were removed from the movie. Also both the TV series and movie were showcased in Nyan Clip as being events that happened. Kawamori has also referenced the movie ending as the true ending in his interview for the Sheryl manga. Since that was the ending that the TV series was originally supposed to have.
@@brightlight8852 There's a school of thought that says "movies are all in one timeline and tv shows are all in one timeline". With regard to the Vajra planet... the two shots from there hint both ways. The shot with the crashed YF-29 says one thing, but the scene with the Frontier colony in the water says another, as in the movie the colony landed on land. There's also weirdness with *how* the events of the movies are acknowledged, as up until Labyrinth of Time the idea that Sheryl hadn't woken and Alto hadn't returned was kind of not the default theory... and as I said, no matter which version of events is closer to truth, all mecha are canon. The VF-1 Strike Pack was invented for DYRL, but it exists in the "true" universe, same with the VT-1 Super Ostrich and VE-1 Elintseeker. The VF-25 Tornado pack and YF-29 also exist in the "true" verse, as does the YF-30, the VF-31 Armored pack and the VF-31AX. All of these are fair game to turn up in any future Macross thing, even if the plots they are related to turn out to be non-canon and Brera or Freyja show up in a future TV show...
Loved Macross Frontier series and watched it twice, could not finish Macross Delta. To each its own... How do the Macross Franchise intend to celebrate its 40th Anniversary?.
I've always been of the mindset that there are two separate timelines in Macross... the series timeline and the movies timeline. Macross Zero is shared by both timelines, but the timelines diverge after that. I would firmly put Macross 7 in the series timeline, even though Exsedol appears as he did in DYRL. But truly, by viewing them as two separate timelines, it solves many of the questions about canon.
Well not really, as the true answer is that both are canon since both of them are in universe stories. In the Frontier ova Nyan Clip it showed that the Frontier anime events still happened in the timeline but because one is a TV series and the other is a movie one had the time to show it but the other did not. Similar to the Valkyries and concerts the movie had the budget to showcase accurate valkyries and concerts but the tv series did not. The only thing that's on a different timeline is Macross 2.
@@brightlight8852 Or, and follow me on this, the in-universe show referenced the movie... I mean, IRL news/documentaries/shows have *never* used movie footage (or recreations) as a stand-in for actual "real life" footage, right? (Alternately, movie can use "real world" footage in a movie; see countless background TVs in movies.)
@Jeremy Owens What are you talking about? The franchise tend to use footage from both the movies and the TV series. In fact more often than not they tend to use the movie footage when talking about past events. Some your entire point makes zero sense. The franchise is just a series of dramatic reenactments. Ozma even brings this up in Frontier when he points out that the Macross Zero that we saw didn't tell the full story and was based on Mao Nome's memoir.
The two films were great retellings of a great series. Wings of Goodbye was a little confusing, but this video did a great analysis that cleared things up. #team messiah #teamranka
I loved 90% of the frontier movies, but the ending of the second one kills it for me. I like the 'why not both?' mutually supportive love triangle resolution from the series
Have faith big boi, that is how Iron Blooded Orphans resolved their triangle. Ranka with the help of the widow Hayate, will form a relationship while helping Sheryl reunite with Alto in the space time fault. hopefully Hikaru and Misa are still alive and together.
Same. The dynamic between the three of them worked so well. Although the special short that came with the new Delta movie seems to open up some possibilities for the future
For you to know. Alto supposed to choose Sheryl in TV series too. Remember when Alto tried to say something to Sheryl in his house..? He was about to confess to her that time. If you dig deep enough you would found that the TV series was "a compromise" between the producer and story writer. The producer (kawamori) want to make Alto x Sheryl from the start but the story writer support Alto x Ranka instead. The production team was divided into those 2 side. The producer and story writer then agree to make tv series an open ending and if the series got popular to get movies, the story would follow what he envisioned.
@@justinscharf8838 Sheryl and altos dynamic was just so good. Kawamori himself said that ranka was not eve supposed to be a love interest in the first place.
Didn't the creator end up saying both the series and the movies are both cannon. Being dramatizations of 'events' that happen in their world. Eg making a WW2 movie based on real events but made to entertain the audience so not 100% accurate but based on real events. So basically you can pick what you like in each animation.
Yes, however the movies ending is the one that gets referenced by future Macross works so therefore the movies' ending is canon. They did something similar with DYRL the song that Minmei sung was "Do you Remember Love" not "Love Flows Away".
Gotta say Macross Delta Zettai live is a good movie, but for a modern Macross era Frontier series and Movie still unchallenged in terms of impact, songs, and iconic Variable Fighter (VF) design
And before you ask me what are my arguments just look at the temporal line: MZ, DYRL?, Flashback 2012, MP, M7, M7 The galaxy is calling me, M7 Encore, M7 Dynamite, MF The false Diva, MF Farewell wings, MF Bomber, and both movies of Delta + MF LoT.
This. All the series continue from the Movie endings and then the series get polished into movie format and the next series continues from there. I really dont get why some dont even put two and two together.
@@eraea9179 I think it's because people haven't noticed the fact that I'm already in the last two decades developed some kind of method to release anime, that goes basically like this: 1- he releases a normal anime. 2- when the anime is over he checks the reception of the people about it, and takes notes. 3- make fixes and then he releases the movie, normally the movie is like some kind of resume of the anime with a little more maybe a little less but it has the fixes and it continues the story. he didn't create this method on Macross but he tried it with other several animes, like Eureka Seven and the Aquarion series, where you can find that these have series and movies, and in most cases, the movies are basically resumed of the series. Examples of the "Fixes": Case A: Michael dies in MF Series. He survives in MF's Movie. Case B: Messer dies in MD Series, he ALSO dies in MD's Movie, but the death is not getting turned into "Captain Ketchup" but a more manly, epic, and meaning full death.
I'm surprised people haven't figured it out yet. The movie endings are always historically accurate. While some aspects of the TV series are also canon by and large most of them are not. An example is Minmei's rise to stardom happened in the same manner of the TV series. She met Hikaru and Misa in the same manner as the TV series but the ending of the war and the love triangle resolved in the manner shown from the movies. Frontier is the same. While Sheryl, and Ranka's relationship with one another follows the TV series but the love triangle ended in the manner of the movies.
Kawamori treats the TV series as Historical fact, while the Movies are the Hollywood version of the Historical facts. I didn't enjoy the Movies because it has a lot of cliches and science changing into space magic. I had watch each episode of the TV series for at least 20 times but I struggled to watch the movies even for a 2nd time.
That is incorrect, he stated that both the TV series and movies were Hollywood recreations they both have inaccuracies in them. For instance the movie's endings were acknowledged by Delta and other Macross series. It was also clear from the start that the ending for the TV series is likely not what happened. If anything the movies also better explanation of the Vajra and Sheryl also doesn't magically get better.
@@brightlight8852 I know quite a few people liked the Movies, but the movies is.....illogical. Take the last scene....all the SMS quarters blasting away together with everyone else. Luckily the Vajra Queen warped out otherwise the back blast would have killed all the civilians of Frontier out in the open! But wait! where did all those beam and 'nuclear' tipped ammo land? A Quarter of the planet would hv been destroyed. Sheryl sucked out into space, can't they hv Ozma (who is in a rocket suit and sucked out as well) save Sheryl rather than Ai-kun suddenly have magic powers? Ozma blocking Brera bullets, why don't Brera shoots him in the head? Afterall he's not wearing a helmet and Brera is an android, he doesn't hv to align his eyes and the gunsight to shoot! But still he miss! The list goes on. You don't really find this kind of thing in the TV series. Yeah, I saw that scene in Delta where Sheryl and Ranka in their movie costume. All I know is Kawamori does what he likes. When I heard he's taking a more active role in Delta, I said to myself - it's going to be a bloody mess! If you have seen his promo for the series - it actually turned out as a bloody mess. Here's something to ponder, IF the Frontier Movies are a fantasy, then the Delta TV series is also a fantasy because it's relating to the movies! 😅
@James Wong First of the beam weapons aren't nuclear weapons. Second when they hit they landed on a mountain and decimated it. Third the Macross Quarters that fired were from NUNS. That actually gets brought up in Delta as another example of the NUNS being corrupt, because they weren't supposed to kill the vajra queen. Ozma beforehand made a point about the NUNS being corrupt in the TV series this is another example of that. Ai-kun saved Sheryl by forming a barrier around her, you can actually see him jump on her right as she let's go off Ranka and Ozma points out that Ai-kun was protecting Sheryl when they wake up. And no its not new, all Vajra can do that and have been shown to do that in the TV series. It's the same green force field that the vajra all had around them. It saved Sheryl because just like Ranka she can communicate with the Vajra and that includes Ai-kun. Brera isn't an android he's a cyborg, a modified human, that's why he has to align his eyes, because he's running a program. Because his series have been moving his eyes all over the place. The TV series actually had just as many unexplained things happen you just have on your nostalgia goggles so you didn't realize it. Or you simply wanted to hate the movies for being different so you never bothered to pay attention to it. Also what? Judging from your factually wrong statement you actually don't know that Kawamori had complete control over both the Frontier movies AND the TV series, all of the things you liked about the tv series were thought up by him. For the Delta TV series he actually had LESS control over it as the executives really wanted to push their ideas but Kawamori wanted to continue the story, that's why Delta's plotline suffered, the executives wanted to push a square peg into a round hole. The Delta movies were more in line with his original plan for it.
@@brightlight8852 I did see at least one Koenig Monster there and they do fire 'solid' ammo. You're right about the NUNs and probably right about some of the other things. We all have our preference. I did like the explanation in the Movie about why Alto left the Kabuki stage than the TV version. I saw an interview that Kawamori was saying that Delta will have a 57 (i think) sided relationship like a multi sided dice - that was a red flag for me. Or did the translation made a mistake?
@James Wong The movies explain things differently so as to make it easier to understand, but the meaning is the same. The explanation was just given in a different way so the viewer could understand it easier. The reason for this is that one of Frontier TV series biggest criticisms is the explanations being hard to understand. So Kawamori reacted to this by giving simpler explanations. It amounts to the same thing but the explanation is just easier to understand. Other times he just decided to actually show instead of tell. In the TV series Ozma tells that NUNS is corrupt and ineffective but we're never actually shown it. The explanation for Alto's situation is the same as the TV series but less dragged out and he doesn't have people constantly teasing Alto so it doesn't take attention away from his actual issues. Similarly Galaxy (by this I mean the innocent civilians) are not gone but again we were told it not shown it like in the movies. Also why are implants banned. Colonel Grace in the movies for instance actually also came from the TV series. She was in the drama cds about Sheryl's past. She was killed by the conspirators because she was going to turn traitor to protect Sheryl, and then replaced by one of their agents who was resentful of Sheryl's family. Colonel Grace is the one who actually raised Sheryl after finding Sheryl. The movie pushing Ranka to the side made sense because outside of being from Gallia 4 Ranka actually has very little connection to the main plot. Sheryl on the other hand is intrinsically connected to the plot, she comes from a line of priestesses who were created by protoculture to emulate the Vajra's abilities, her grandmother was researching the vajra on Gallia 4 before her death. Her parents were politicians who were against the use of implants and were assassinated by the conspirators to silence dissenters in the Galaxy fleet. Grace who found her was a Colonel working under the conspirators. They specifically sought her out because of her heritage made her the best candidate for experiments. Kawamori decided to focus more on Sheryl and make her into a spy because of how connected she was to everything. Delta only has one love triangle and it's a case where Frejya likes Hayate. Hayate likes Frejya . And Mirage likes Hayate. Kawamori didn't want a love triangle in Delta at all. And after watching the Delta movies, I think that Kawamori was right.
Will I did like both the TV series and movies I don't at all like how the creator went with the no real timeline thing. IMO it is messy, not considerate of the fans to a degree, wanting to eat your cake and have it too, and just rubs me the wrong way. But, that might be just me. I like things that are nice a to b short of things. Though I can understand some wigo room. It went a little to far with this, IMO.
they mix delta in frontier? not interested, to me, delta DOES NOT EXIST as a macross series, and seven events are just a confusing recap made by a drunkster, while the real story of seven did not involved idiocy like using a guitar to control a vf-19 that's the macross inside my dreams, and is not gonna change they could take out other crap like delta, they are free to do so, i will be free to not see it, and keep re-watching ai oboeteimatsuka all my life
Thank you! Someone else who calls out that playing a guitar while flying a mech jet fighter in actual combat and not crashing is stretching the suspension of disbelief.
The movie artbook revealed that Sheryl doesn't immediately wake up and it took some time before Alto came back and her waking up. In fact that concert in the credit roll is the concert after she wakes up. Kawamori just wants to fill in the blanks for it.
Wings of Goodbye was my point of re-entry to the Macross series, ever since the original Macross that I watched on occasion when I was a kid. It began my actual venture to the series, by urging me to find False Songstress (and the tv series), which then led to a chance encounter with Do You Remember Love (which renewed my curiosity to the original SDF Macross). It also opened up my interest to other Satelight's works such as Aquarion, and other non-gundam mecha series. So I couldn't agree more when you said that it's a good entry point for Macross series.
The duology (and the tv series by extension) also packs some of my favorite songs in the entire franchise as well. So very well integrated to the scenes they are, that most of the time I listen to the songs, it's either I could immediately recall the scene in my head, or feel like something is missing because the scene is not there to accompany the song. This is something I haven't felt again in a while, except maybe on Zettai Live's climax (I need to rewatch this one). Though I haven't really watched Macross 7 to completion, so the jury is still out.
My favorite scene is probably when Alto synchronized with Sheryll's and Ranka's song that he was able to see everything in slow motion and everything that happened after that. This is exactly why I freaked out in excitement when Hayate experienced a similar thing in Zettai Live!
On a sidenote, Jenius' appearance on Zettai Live felt amazing, especially having watched the original Macross and Do You Remember Love (and 7, partially). Jenius is still a goddamn bad ass genius pilot even in his advanced age, and it's glorious to see. Has been waiting for a glimpse of him when I first realized that one of the main pilots in Delta is his grandchild (I know he appeared in 7, but I haven't really watched 7 to the end, so, yeah...)
Wings of Farewell with the intense action was the perfect combination of a spectacle.
To this day, I can't decide which is superior. I fucking love both
In the Macross Frontier (original spelling 'Flontier') TV series, the last story arc starts off with a HUGE reference to the OVA Prequel series 'Macross Zero', so much so that I recommend watching 'Macross Zero' before starting the final story arc of 'Macross Frontier' as this explains the original source of the viral infection that Ranka Lee has
Love this series, I saw it when I was stationed in Guam and we got it on TV one day.
The False Songstress was actually where the detour started, there were many changes made in the movie such as Major Osmar Lee revelling he was a pilot in the first battle against the Varja.
The Ozma reveal is basically just confirming something that was hinted at pretty heavily but never confirmed from the TV show. The *major* shakeup is at the very start, where Grace goes "don't forget what we're really here for, focus on the mission" and Sheryl replies "I got that", or words to that effect. That effectively sets up the plot for the first half of the second movie right there - because Sheryl really *is* a spy, just as she's accused of being; and can't deny it in front of Alto when they arrest her. Whether she knows that her song is attracting the Vajra is a different story though.
Is there an order to macross frontier series and movie i should watch it in?
@@rowshambow False songstress and then wings of goodbye for the movies.
@@comentnine1574then labyrinthe of time directly after
Damnnnn it's been a WHILE since Frontier came out ...... Just saw the short clip a few months ago, rreealllly miss this show but fkkking love it xD will be watching the Delta movie soon ~
Oh yeah btw......we need to see more YF-29 in the future Macross saga, especially when it's used by NUNS Spec Ops like the YF-29B Perceval
For you all to know. Alto was supposed to choose Sheryl in TV series. Remember when Alto tried to say something to Sheryl in his house..? He was about to confess to her that time.
If you dig in internet deep enough you would found interviews from kawamori that the TV series was "a compromise" between the producer and story writer. The producer (kawamori) want to make Alto x Sheryl from the start but the story writer support Alto x Ranka and don't want Ranka to be left behind. The production team was divided into those 2 side. The producer and story writer then agree to make tv series an open ending with a promise if the series got popular enough to get movies, the story would follow what Kawamori envisioned. And that's how we got the much greater 2 movies.
Not sure, but several interviews that were discussed when the series ended with the triangle unclear there were a LOT of faked interviews pushing things towards Sharon being the OTP. It turned out to be the case, but that doesn't change that there was a lot of BS floating around that many don't realize was made up whole cloth.
As stated in the comment before, there were fake interviews. Further research and actual interviews reveal there never was any division in production team nor "compromise", all storylines were planned from the beginning.
It was great they did a one day showing for both films in US recently. Really great to watch it on big screen
Macross Frontier haver one of the best soundtrack, after Macross Plus and SDF Macross
The best soundtrack*
I think Frontier and 7 could really re-invigorate Macross in areas where it was limited by copyright in the past (Harmony Gold in the USA etc). I have to say I prefer the movies purely for the presentation of the concerts and for all my favorites surviving. Poor Klan in the TV version of events.... The YF-29 remains my favorite design from Macross to date.
I feel you, but the death episode that you are hinting at in the TV series is flat out one of the best episodes in the history of the franchise. Half of me is happy that certain characters survive, but man... you lose out on so much character development as a result.
Really solid discussion overall, thanks for sharing your thoughts. You do kind of claim that these movies can stand alone then explain pretty well why they don't though. I did like them both, including many of the changes, additions, glow-ups, and obviously phenomenal music, but on the whole they present a rushed, messier, more awkward, and overall less compelling narrative.
The problem is that the series, though not perfect, was a really cohesive and well paced story. While there was definitely some side-content that could be trimmed, fitting enough of the relevant story beats into two movies was never going to work. I suspect that's why they completely changed the plot of the second movie from the series, but in doing so (and in setting up for it in the first movie) they hastily retro-fitted important plot points and forewent character development or just swept them aside with implication and info-dump in some cases, none of which is satisfying or compelling storytelling. Contrasting with the series, where the plot and characters are all so strong and integral to one another, the movies just end up feeling hollow. Of course, they're still worth watching if you really like Macross Frontier, because they are more of that world and story, just less effectively conveyed.
Now, even more of a personal preference than analysis (though obviously everything I've said is just my interpretation), but I really didn't like the ending. Alto throughout everything was shown as being kind of oblivious to both girls' feelings for him and his own for them, as well as being a bit emotionally closed off in general, so him randomly telling Ranka that she's basically just a friend to him and then telling Sheryl that he loves her (which is unambiguous if you can read lips and understand a bit of Japanese, because it was very carefully animated), was just out of character. It's not that I don't think Alto and Sheryl 'belong' together or whatever (I do have very controversial opinions about that love triangle, but not relevant) there's definitely well written and acted chemistry there, it's just that that scene in general felt so artificial and forced to me. Then him getting zooped away possibly never to be seen again with only shaky/implied explanations just seemed like a lacklustre attempt to slap on a coat of tragedy to the ending at the last minute. But hey, maybe that worked for some people, I'm not gonna judge.
I personally run with the old theory that the series are the "actual events", with the movies being "in universe movies" retelling the events- after (Neo?) Hollywood got done with them. (Also kinda put Macross II in the "in-'verse movies" pile; it was a miniseries someone made about what they thought was gonna happen... Hey, the Macross-verse streaming platforms need content too)
You can comfortably treat *everything* as in-universe historical fiction - or sci-fi. It even works for explaining how the Macross 7 show is so cheesy - its a TV show about a band created for the show... that grew so popular they outlasted the show and kept releasing albums for decades afterwards. Did Basara *really* convert a whole Meltran fleet into panty-flinging fangirls on the spot? Maaaaaayyyybe. Maaaaaybe not. But he did it on the show and it became a meme. (This also gives fanfic authors an out for writing Basara as a real human instead of how he's portrayed in the show.)
Does this help at all with interpreting an actual official history? Not one bit, the only help for that is "what does future productions go with as a default" and even that gets weird. See how the game Macross 30 mixes and matches bits of Frontier TV and the Frontier Movies to get the perfect mix of backstory events to have *all* the characters alive and in possession of information that wasn't discovered until after some of them were dead in either continuity.
According to Kawamori both of them are Hollywood retellings. For that matter the movies tend to be referenced more than the TV series for any Macross entry.
@@brightlight8852 DYRL is explicitly not what actually happened, but the designs are what the Studio Nue crew wanted things to look like, so that's what the characters look like ever since. Labyrinth of Time is essentially a continuation of the Frontier Movies, but it's not sure if anything else references them at all. And all VFs that show up anywhere are canon, and if they didn't show in the TV shows then they were developed afterwards. Don't take the presence of an YF-29 to be a reference to Sayonara No Tsubasa's *plot*. Basically the only way to tell which way around Frontier went is Michael or Brera turning up in a future TV show. Or both, and wouldn't that screw everyone's plans up. (they both show up in Macross 30, but that's in a weird situation in general.)
@Winchester1979 You're wrong. The Vajra planet is shown in Delta movies and it looks like how it does in the 2nd movie. It's also mentioned in some model kit stories. Their cellphone game uta Macross also acknowledges the movie ending as being the true ending. Labyrinth of Time directly references the Frontier movie ending. But Ranka and Sheryl's relationship was taken from the TV series.
The movie and the TV series for SDF have a similar deal and the movie just moves said fight to the end of the movie. Neither the movie nor the series shows what really happened in full but rather you'd have to combine the details from both to get the full story. The song DYRL is the song that was sung in that battle. Klan Klan mentions as much in Frontier. YF 29 is canon as its not just referenced in the Delta it's also mentioned in Uta Macross and various other novels etc as being Alto's ship. Also YF-29 Durandal also canonically existed at that time and SMS was well known for giving its members the best equipment available. So Alto being an ace pilot having one is reasonable. Alto at one point in time used to pilot the VF-25 Messiah but then he upgraded to the YF-29 Durandal It's also the Valkyrie shown in Labryinth of Time, as beloning to Alto. The Macross Frontier TV series is canonically an in universe retelling same as the movies. In fact, ironically enough in the Frontier TV series Ozma even calls out the Macross Zero as not being accurate to what really happened, as the actual controversial events were removed from the movie.
Also both the TV series and movie were showcased in Nyan Clip as being events that happened. Kawamori has also referenced the movie ending as the true ending in his interview for the Sheryl manga. Since that was the ending that the TV series was originally supposed to have.
@@brightlight8852 There's a school of thought that says "movies are all in one timeline and tv shows are all in one timeline". With regard to the Vajra planet... the two shots from there hint both ways. The shot with the crashed YF-29 says one thing, but the scene with the Frontier colony in the water says another, as in the movie the colony landed on land. There's also weirdness with *how* the events of the movies are acknowledged, as up until Labyrinth of Time the idea that Sheryl hadn't woken and Alto hadn't returned was kind of not the default theory... and as I said, no matter which version of events is closer to truth, all mecha are canon. The VF-1 Strike Pack was invented for DYRL, but it exists in the "true" universe, same with the VT-1 Super Ostrich and VE-1 Elintseeker. The VF-25 Tornado pack and YF-29 also exist in the "true" verse, as does the YF-30, the VF-31 Armored pack and the VF-31AX. All of these are fair game to turn up in any future Macross thing, even if the plots they are related to turn out to be non-canon and Brera or Freyja show up in a future TV show...
Loved Macross Frontier series and watched it twice, could not finish Macross Delta. To each its own...
How do the Macross Franchise intend to celebrate its 40th Anniversary?.
I've always been of the mindset that there are two separate timelines in Macross... the series timeline and the movies timeline. Macross Zero is shared by both timelines, but the timelines diverge after that. I would firmly put Macross 7 in the series timeline, even though Exsedol appears as he did in DYRL.
But truly, by viewing them as two separate timelines, it solves many of the questions about canon.
But that's only because we didn't get the Zero movie Ranka starred in... THEN, we'd have the full movie timeline/in-universe movie series.
Well not really, as the true answer is that both are canon since both of them are in universe stories. In the Frontier ova Nyan Clip it showed that the Frontier anime events still happened in the timeline but because one is a TV series and the other is a movie one had the time to show it but the other did not. Similar to the Valkyries and concerts the movie had the budget to showcase accurate valkyries and concerts but the tv series did not. The only thing that's on a different timeline is Macross 2.
@@brightlight8852 Or, and follow me on this, the in-universe show referenced the movie... I mean, IRL news/documentaries/shows have *never* used movie footage (or recreations) as a stand-in for actual "real life" footage, right? (Alternately, movie can use "real world" footage in a movie; see countless background TVs in movies.)
@Jeremy Owens What are you talking about? The franchise tend to use footage from both the movies and the TV series. In fact more often than not they tend to use the movie footage when talking about past events. Some your entire point makes zero sense. The franchise is just a series of dramatic reenactments. Ozma even brings this up in Frontier when he points out that the Macross Zero that we saw didn't tell the full story and was based on Mao Nome's memoir.
The two films were great retellings of a great series. Wings of Goodbye was a little confusing, but this video did a great analysis that cleared things up.
#team messiah
#teamranka
I loved 90% of the frontier movies, but the ending of the second one kills it for me. I like the 'why not both?' mutually supportive love triangle resolution from the series
Have faith big boi, that is how Iron Blooded Orphans resolved their triangle. Ranka with the help of the widow Hayate, will form a relationship while helping Sheryl reunite with Alto in the space time fault. hopefully Hikaru and Misa are still alive and together.
Same. The dynamic between the three of them worked so well. Although the special short that came with the new Delta movie seems to open up some possibilities for the future
Haven't you watch the resolutions in the newest Delta movie？ It implies the resolutions：）
For you to know. Alto supposed to choose Sheryl in TV series too. Remember when Alto tried to say something to Sheryl in his house..? He was about to confess to her that time.
If you dig deep enough you would found that the TV series was "a compromise" between the producer and story writer. The producer (kawamori) want to make Alto x Sheryl from the start but the story writer support Alto x Ranka instead. The production team was divided into those 2 side. The producer and story writer then agree to make tv series an open ending and if the series got popular to get movies, the story would follow what he envisioned.
@@justinscharf8838 Sheryl and altos dynamic was just so good. Kawamori himself said that ranka was not eve supposed to be a love interest in the first place.
Team Messiah!
FUCK YEAH
So much better than Macross Delta.. which basically killed the series.
Didn't the creator end up saying both the series and the movies are both cannon. Being dramatizations of 'events' that happen in their world.
Eg making a WW2 movie based on real events but made to entertain the audience so not 100% accurate but based on real events.
So basically you can pick what you like in each animation.
Yes, however the movies ending is the one that gets referenced by future Macross works so therefore the movies' ending is canon. They did something similar with DYRL the song that Minmei sung was "Do you Remember Love" not "Love Flows Away".
Gotta say Macross Delta Zettai live is a good movie, but for a modern Macross era Frontier series and Movie still unchallenged in terms of impact, songs, and iconic Variable Fighter (VF) design
#teamdurandal
I don't know what are talking about... All of us who have follow Macross from long time know that the movies are the cannon of Macross.
And before you ask me what are my arguments just look at the temporal line:
MZ, DYRL?, Flashback 2012, MP, M7, M7 The galaxy is calling me, M7 Encore, M7 Dynamite, MF The false Diva, MF Farewell wings, MF Bomber, and both movies of Delta + MF LoT.
This. All the series continue from the Movie endings and then the series get polished into movie format and the next series continues from there. I really dont get why some dont even put two and two together.
@@eraea9179 I think it's because people haven't noticed the fact that I'm already in the last two decades developed some kind of method to release anime, that goes basically like this:
1- he releases a normal anime.
2- when the anime is over he checks the reception of the people about it, and takes notes.
3- make fixes and then he releases the movie, normally the movie is like some kind of resume of the anime with a little more maybe a little less but it has the fixes and it continues the story.
he didn't create this method on Macross but he tried it with other several animes, like Eureka Seven and the Aquarion series, where you can find that these have series and movies, and in most cases, the movies are basically resumed of the series.
Examples of the "Fixes":
Case A: Michael dies in MF Series. He survives in MF's Movie.
Case B: Messer dies in MD Series, he ALSO dies in MD's Movie, but the death is not getting turned into "Captain Ketchup" but a more manly, epic, and meaning full death.
I'm surprised people haven't figured it out yet. The movie endings are always historically accurate. While some aspects of the TV series are also canon by and large most of them are not.
An example is Minmei's rise to stardom happened in the same manner of the TV series. She met Hikaru and Misa in the same manner as the TV series but the ending of the war and the love triangle resolved in the manner shown from the movies. Frontier is the same.
While Sheryl, and Ranka's relationship with one another follows the TV series but the love triangle ended in the manner of the movies.
@@brightlight8852 also literally Megaroad-1, which first appeared exclusively from the Flashback 2012 amv/movie
Kawamori treats the TV series as Historical fact, while the Movies are the Hollywood version of the Historical facts. I didn't enjoy the Movies because it has a lot of cliches and science changing into space magic. I had watch each episode of the TV series for at least 20 times but I struggled to watch the movies even for a 2nd time.
That is incorrect, he stated that both the TV series and movies were Hollywood recreations they both have inaccuracies in them. For instance the movie's endings were acknowledged by Delta and other Macross series. It was also clear from the start that the ending for the TV series is likely not what happened.
If anything the movies also better explanation of the Vajra and Sheryl also doesn't magically get better.
@@brightlight8852 I know quite a few people liked the Movies, but the movies is.....illogical. Take the last scene....all the SMS quarters blasting away together with everyone else. Luckily the Vajra Queen warped out otherwise the back blast would have killed all the civilians of Frontier out in the open! But wait! where did all those beam and 'nuclear' tipped ammo land? A Quarter of the planet would hv been destroyed. Sheryl sucked out into space, can't they hv Ozma (who is in a rocket suit and sucked out as well) save Sheryl rather than Ai-kun suddenly have magic powers? Ozma blocking Brera bullets, why don't Brera shoots him in the head? Afterall he's not wearing a helmet and Brera is an android, he doesn't hv to align his eyes and the gunsight to shoot! But still he miss! The list goes on. You don't really find this kind of thing in the TV series. Yeah, I saw that scene in Delta where Sheryl and Ranka in their movie costume. All I know is Kawamori does what he likes. When I heard he's taking a more active role in Delta, I said to myself - it's going to be a bloody mess! If you have seen his promo for the series - it actually turned out as a bloody mess. Here's something to ponder, IF the Frontier Movies are a fantasy, then the Delta TV series is also a fantasy because it's relating to the movies! 😅
@James Wong First of the beam weapons aren't nuclear weapons. Second when they hit they landed on a mountain and decimated it. Third the Macross Quarters that fired were from NUNS. That actually gets brought up in Delta as another example of the NUNS being corrupt, because they weren't supposed to kill the vajra queen. Ozma beforehand made a point about the NUNS being corrupt in the TV series this is another example of that.
Ai-kun saved Sheryl by forming a barrier around her, you can actually see him jump on her right as she let's go off Ranka and Ozma points out that Ai-kun was protecting Sheryl when they wake up. And no its not new, all Vajra can do that and have been shown to do that in the TV series. It's the same green force field that the vajra all had around them. It saved Sheryl because just like Ranka she can communicate with the Vajra and that includes Ai-kun.
Brera isn't an android he's a cyborg, a modified human, that's why he has to align his eyes, because he's running a program. Because his series have been moving his eyes all over the place.
The TV series actually had just as many unexplained things happen you just have on your nostalgia goggles so you didn't realize it. Or you simply wanted to hate the movies for being different so you never bothered to pay attention to it.
Also what? Judging from your factually wrong statement you actually don't know that Kawamori had complete control over both the Frontier movies AND the TV series, all of the things you liked about the tv series were thought up by him. For the Delta TV series he actually had LESS control over it as the executives really wanted to push their ideas but Kawamori wanted to continue the story, that's why Delta's plotline suffered, the executives wanted to push a square peg into a round hole. The Delta movies were more in line with his original plan for it.
@@brightlight8852 I did see at least one Koenig Monster there and they do fire 'solid' ammo. You're right about the NUNs and probably right about some of the other things. We all have our preference. I did like the explanation in the Movie about why Alto left the Kabuki stage than the TV version. I saw an interview that Kawamori was saying that Delta will have a 57 (i think) sided relationship like a multi sided dice - that was a red flag for me. Or did the translation made a mistake?
@James Wong The movies
explain things differently so as to make it easier to understand, but the meaning is the same. The explanation was just given in a different way so the viewer could understand it easier. The reason for this is that one of Frontier TV series biggest criticisms is the explanations being hard to understand. So Kawamori reacted to this by giving simpler explanations. It amounts to the same thing but the explanation is just easier to understand. Other times he just decided to actually show instead of tell. In the TV series Ozma tells that NUNS is corrupt and ineffective but we're never actually shown it.
The explanation for Alto's situation is the same as the TV series but less dragged out and he doesn't have people constantly teasing Alto so it doesn't take attention away from his actual issues.
Similarly Galaxy (by this I mean the innocent civilians) are not gone but again we were told it not shown it like in the movies. Also why are implants banned. Colonel Grace in the movies for instance actually also came from the TV series. She was in the drama cds about Sheryl's past. She was killed by the conspirators because she was going to turn traitor to protect Sheryl, and then replaced by one of their agents who was resentful of Sheryl's family. Colonel Grace is the one who actually raised Sheryl after finding Sheryl.
The movie pushing Ranka to the side made sense because outside of being from Gallia 4 Ranka actually has very little connection to the main plot. Sheryl on the other hand is intrinsically connected to the plot, she comes from a line of priestesses who were created by protoculture to emulate the Vajra's abilities, her grandmother was researching the vajra on Gallia 4 before her death. Her parents were politicians who were against the use of implants and were assassinated by the conspirators to silence dissenters in the Galaxy fleet. Grace who found her was a Colonel working under the conspirators. They specifically sought her out because of her heritage made her the best candidate for experiments. Kawamori decided to focus more on Sheryl and make her into a spy because of how connected she was to everything.
Delta only has one love triangle and it's a case where Frejya likes Hayate. Hayate likes Frejya . And Mirage likes Hayate. Kawamori didn't want a love triangle in Delta at all. And after watching the Delta movies, I think that Kawamori was right.
Unfortunately my the movie os the one pull me into macross franchise
Will I did like both the TV series and movies I don't at all like how the creator went with the no real timeline thing. IMO it is messy, not considerate of the fans to a degree, wanting to eat your cake and have it too, and just rubs me the wrong way. But, that might be just me. I like things that are nice a to b short of things. Though I can understand some wigo room. It went a little to far with this, IMO.
Are you having trouble saying English?
they mix delta in frontier? not interested, to me, delta DOES NOT EXIST as a macross series, and seven events are just a confusing recap made by a drunkster, while the real story of seven did not involved idiocy like using a guitar to control a vf-19
that's the macross inside my dreams, and is not gonna change
they could take out other crap like delta, they are free to do so, i will be free to not see it, and keep re-watching ai oboeteimatsuka all my life
Cope
Thank you! Someone else who calls out that playing a guitar while flying a mech jet fighter in actual combat and not crashing is stretching the suspension of disbelief.
You do know that YF-29 is most powerful VF ever made? Even better than VF-31 and Sv-303
the cgi is just so icky