Orvill Robinson's Innovative Rifles
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 ก.ค. 2024
- / forgottenweapons
Orvill Robinson was a gunsmith and gun designer in upstate New York who developed two rather interesting rifle designs in the 1870s. They are both pistol-caliber actions, with tubular magazines. The first (the 1870 model) used a tilting wedge very similar in concept to the 1886 Mannlicher straight-pull action. This Robinson design had a pair of checkered tabs on the back of the bolt, and the shooter would use them to manually cycle the bolt back and forth.
The later 1872 pattern rifle abandoned the earlier action for a toggle type of lock, operated manually with a small knob on the side of the bolt. The shooter would use it to pull the bolt open and push it closed. Much like a lever action, but without the lever.
Both guns seems to have had significant promise, which may explain why the Winchester company was interested in buying out Robinson in 1874. They purchased his inventory and patents, and Robinson signed a non-compete contract to boot. Winchester shut down the production; they were not interested in having a viable competitor to their lever-action rifles. Whether Ferdinand Mannlicher ever saw one of the 1870 pattern rifles is unknown, but it could have been the basis for his early 1886 action...
/ forgottenweapons
Someone should 3D print Ian some dummy cartridges for each episode. I would definitely appreciate seeing how cartridges move in the action. It’s really an incomplete mechanism without them.
Agreed.
I would be inclined to manufacture dummy cartridges in a conventional way, I suspect there is ample fodder that could be developed to exactly fit these rifles. I fully agree with your "incomplete" statement.
That would be fckin awesome!
@@brians9182 I admit I have trouble understanding the operating mechanism in many of the guns Ian features,and a dummy cartridge would help a lot,but the Robertson 1872 was plain as day to me. Talk about an elegant and sleek mechanism,even without a dummy cartridge!
@@mikedunn7795 I'm not naysaying anything
These are truly the product of an artist and an mechanical genius. These rifles, for its time period, had insane potential, and their mechanisms and the thoughts put into them were really ahead of their time... but interestingly they weren't designed by a firearms designer, just a creative genius. The guy had no intentions of being a major weapons designer, its just some ideas he had and thought he could profit off of it, and when Winchester came knocking to buy him out, he took it and moved on to making VIOLINS.
What an incredibly gifted and unique individual in history.
I wonder if any of his violins are extant
The mechanical wizardry of the 1800's never ceases to amaze and captivate my mind!
They're perfectly functional, but I think the Winchester lever-action would be less awkward to cycle than a mechanism on top of the rifle, especially if you need to cock it and cycle it separately. The adjustable cartridge length and locking mechanism had promise, and might have allowed more powerful cartridges than the early Winchesters, however.
It's almost like you didn't actually listen to what he said, but ok.
And no, the limiting factor for the Henry pattern Winchesters was not the elevator.
The elevator reminds me of a bolt action .22 that my dad had when I was a kid. It had a box magazine where you could slide the feed lips. This allowed it to fire .22 short, .22 long, and .22 long rifle.
look like they were built by an artist rather than a mechanic, very well thought lines, and the later version has an early functionalism vibe to it. pretty weapons.
And here's to you, Orvill Robinson
Ian loves you more than you will know, whoah-oah-oah!
+Martin Colbert Click, click, Ka-BOOM Orvill Robinson...Winchester will offer lots of dough....Whoah-oah-oah.....whoah-oah-oah!
What was the calibers?
Joel Ruder a link that I found to the original lot suggests that it is .44 Henry rimfire. www.morphyauctions.com/jamesdjulia/item/1147-391/
sounds an awful lot like a AJJ reference
Both are absolutely incredibly creative. So an early Mannlicher and an early Luger/Borchardt-action. That guy must have been a genius. I googled his name and found out: he never designed any guns again, instead he made.... VIOLINS.
It's crazy how multi-talented many of the best gun designers were. Mannlicher worked as an engineer for a rayway company. He then basically invented a railsystem to load a rifle. Others made watches, sewing machines, cars, drilling machines... Geniuses.
Well the toggle link action wasn't his idea but yeah
The technology of the 19th century has driven every bit of my own mechanical and electronics work for fifty years. As a teen, I'd hoped to make new inventions, but at 65, I've only explored what took place long before I was born.
Robinson was obviously an early engineering genius. Firearms, wagon wheels and violins! Thomas Edison would have been jealous. I can only wonder what else Robinson may have created with his extraordinary talents that we will never know of. A truly unique and interesting video. Thank you.
Fantastic design. Simple, safe and elegant! I can see why Winchester bought him out.
As I watched these actions function, I am strongly reminded of the "luger toggle action", and in particular, the second of these two as shown in this video. I also easily see either as able to be altered to "auto-load" either with a short recoil action or a gas action if implemented. Quite ingenious, fully in keeping with the other arms inventors of those days. Thanks for showcasing these!
I saw one of these in the Adirondack museum and was flabbergasted that there was a repeating rifle designed and made in the Adirondacks! And of course Ian did a video on it eight years ago! Well done sir
For a moment I thought the title said "Orville Redenbacher" and my world was almost completely changed...
+Daniel G this just made my morning. XD
I use only the best oils to cook and pop my corn broom guns!
+Daniel G Once you pop, you just can't stop.
+Daniel G Once you pop, you just can't stop.
Very cool to see some local history. Being a Plattsburgh resident who is a gunsmith,gunlover extraordinaire and shooter(with a hunting camp not far from lake placid) i loved seeing these rifles and the mechanics of them. thanks for the "blast from the past"!
Well, sir. We share many of the same interests, hobbies and location. Maybe a range day is in order in we can congregate a couple more C&R nuts.
That's an awesome operating system.
“bUt WiLl It RuN dOoM ? “
@@amazoniancustodian Doom runs IT
Beats the shit out of Linux, that's for sure.
That pull action on the brass receiver, when acting it out.. Feels like it would shoot faster then a lever action.
Cool guns!
My eyebrows instinctively raised when he began to explain what the wingnut was used for. So cool.
Took Winchester and Browning til 1886 to market a rifle that could handle the same kind of projectile variation.... Thats amazing. I see some Luger there also in the newer variant.
That toggle-bolt looks a lot like the one used on the Borchardt pistol some 20 years later. Wonder if there is any technical relation going on there?
+BigSwede7403 Was thinking along the same lines myself.
+BigSwede7403 The toggle system was used in many designs even machine guns. This could have been the start of that including the straight pull aspect. The adjustibillity for cartridges was very novel. If that had caught on we might be looking at firearms very differently today.
Hugo Borchardt was working for Winchester around that time.
Or the Luger!
@@gunnarkvinlaug9079 Which was designed on the basis of the Borchardt C-93.
He lived in Upper Jay, not Lake placid, I grew up listening to stories of him from my poppy and how Winchester bought him out because of fear is mass production his rifles. I've luckily seen one of these and got to hold it, beautiful rifle that I hope to inherit
I'd love to see how fast a person could accurately fire that toggle lock version
Thank you Ian for all the great videos you produce for enthusiasts of firearms.
Long story short as possible:He was drafted in the civil war as a wagon maker and then I guess around after that he worked at a Remington arms manufacturer in New England,he ended up dying in 1916 at the age of 78 and is buried in Warwick,Orange county New York.
As it hasn't been offered in explanation, I'll posit that the side plate in both cases served as a loading gate and hope I won't be laughed to scorn. Even so, I'd love to have worked in his shop.
Ian implied that he would explain it later, but never did.
Yes, that is exactly correct.
nice video as always
Wow! Nice find. Really cool designs.
Thank you for the excellent history lesson!
really cool that adjustment for cartridge size👍
These guns come from my home town. Hell yeah
I feel so spoiled by this channel. So many informative videos so fast :D. Thank you
While I greatly appreciate the depth of knowledge that is on display from the auction houses, I really miss the shooting videos back in the desert.
for some reason I kind of like the mechanics on that second Robinson rifle. It's almost like a lever action rifle in such a unique way.
I live in Plattsburgh so i found this video particularly cool.
Your videos are quality stuff!, thanks for all you do
Great back-story, indeed. Enjoyed this!
The cartridge length adjustment is awesome, I wish other handgun caliber lever guns had that!
Ian you have the best videos very informative
Now this as an awesome discovery. Lucky Ian!
Really interesting designs and vid mate.....
Wow, Robinson was a genius! It's sad he was bought out, I would have liked to see him expand on his designs.
There may have been a market for his designs.
I really like the fact you can adjust the rifle to accept multiple cartridges
Thanks! Interesting how action 'types' show up in different places
Honestly, I can see the issue. The design idea is interesting, but both designs are expensive and finicky. The Winchester guns in general are much simpler and accomplish essentially the same.
Wow this reminds me a lever action gun, interesting how this has a lot of features that the more popular lever actions like the Henry or Winchester didn’t have
Cool looking old guns there Ian.
Very cool, i like the toggle lock.
Again great stuff Ian. Very interesting.
Keep picking those unique weapons please. Your historic and technical knowledge is amazing!
Very interesting designs. I have heard of these but never saw one before.
If you look at the operating mechanisms of many of the early factory machines you will see where alot of the early repeating rifles got their ideas .
very much enjoying your series. Noticed the wooly-pully sweater you have on too!
I followed the link to the Violins. As incredible as the Rifles. thanks for presenting these artifacts arising from a true genius.
I've never heard of these rifles, but they are beautiful and I think they are pretty badass
that is a REALLY early toggle-lock gun. Very interesting! thank you, Ian
Technically, the Winchester lever guns were also toggle locked.
svelte is such an... elegant word. I am not sure why, but I've always enjoyed it, especially when used properly!
Very interesting. I suspect they may have had a hard time competing against the Winchester '73 once that came out, but then again, Winchester saw them as a threat.
This seems fairly ahead if it's time as far as the complexity of the mechanisms and quality of the build are concerned. I'm in love, I'll own one before my times up!
I wonder if Winchester was interested in some facet of the design? Like the way the elevator interacts with the bolt. Maybe something from these ended up in the pump action .22s?
This guy had some very advanced ideas for his day.
Very clever and it would not have taken much adaptation for semi auto repetition.
I never heard of these!!!! Neat!!!
I can see why the Henry/ Winchester type got more popular since you could reload the next round without changing grip.
I'm honestly amazed Winchester didn't use either of those actions. They're both quite robust and in some ways superior to the lever action, both would be easier to use while prone, especially that tilting block straight-pull bolt action.
Very interesting mechanics on these rifles. The toggle action in particular was very interesting. Did any other weapons use this idea between when these were made and when the Luger came into being?
The adjustable cartridge length is a really cool idea and function to have
8:45 wow. Pure geniuseness ! what a good engineer , Mr Robinson was. Wish he was here, helping 'modern ' auto
engineers......
did Winchester just buy out all his competitors?
Basically
And those they didn't buy, they struck a deal to not make the same kinds of firearms eachother did. Like S&W.
An exception might be Marlin Firearms (founded 1870).
+Hyperian Smart guy eh? Kill off any competition before it begins.
Would have been interesting to see how the field would have looked if he didn't shut them down.
+Hyperian Common practice. Look at Microsoft in the 90's for similar approach.
Hyperian All the competitors they could, yes.
I’m from Birmingham, England. Would love to see Ian over here doing some videos on British guns, I prefer the pre 1900 guns, for the history as much as the engineering.
Great videos
Neat! I was just wondering if there were any guns out there that had the built-in capability to alter the size of cartridge they could fire.
Are these technically bolt action rifles?
The first rifle is a tilting bolt action ( brass frame model 1870 ).
The second rifle is a toggle action ( iron frame model 1872 ).
Yes.
I love the operating system on the first rifle. I'm very curious over the fact that you could adjust the receiver to take different length bullets, i'm not very savvy with guns but are there any current guns that do this? :)
+GreyDevil Outside of .22 rimfire, no. Our ammo today is more standardized and that sort of adjustability is not really relevant.
@@ForgottenWeapons i think this could still be used by big bore caliber hand gun cartridges, i.e. 38 special/357 magnum/357 maximum.. 45 colt,454 casall as long as the case diameters are the same..would be a novelty but interesting
pretty slick!
Lack of a forestock would put me off buying one of these rifles, but they ARE very innovative.
Very interesting!
I really like the design of the brass versions handle with the brass piece. Looks like it would be a cool lever for a lever action rifle
Interesting design, nice feature with the cartridge length adjustment, provided it would stay and not move while firing, especially at two legged animals that shoot back. In other words it's a needless complication that can tie up the gun at the worst possible time. That said, both operating systems had potential, but I'd still have chosen a 66 in 44 Henry or the new 73 in 44WCF. Seems the Robinson's rifles were available in 44 and 38 rimfire, so they don't really offer any advantage over the existing 1866 improved Henry that Winchester was making, with one exception, the firing from the prone would be easier and quicker with the Robinson's design.
Very cool, must have been a smart cookie!
This reminds me a lot of the winchester gallery guns mechanically, with the tilt being on the rear rather than the front of the bolt.
I might actually be related to this guy. I remember my dad saying something about an Orvill form New York. Now I want to do some digging.
So what you have there is essentially a straight pull repeater without the side bolt handle??? Very cool. Love your videos Ian.
"I hope you enjoyed the video"
Me, who enjoyed the video five years after its creation: Yes, Ian from Forgotten weapons, yes I did.
This gun was better than the bolt movement in a bolt action rifle. As a military rifle, it was overlooked and went unknown. The movement is much better than a bolt action; quicker, shorter, has only two motions, not three, the reposition of the shooting hand return to trigger is apparently ergonomically smoother transition; quicker, less cumbersome, less metal involved; less weight.
Has none of the drawbacks of a lever. The rifleman could lay prone and work the mechanism. The cartridge length adjuster was unnecessary.
The mechanism is very simple and strong, and safe. It has no problems nor weaknesses.
This rifle held many more shells than a bolt action rifle. The rifle is very slender, easily handled and carried. The shell could already in that model easily be the longrifle
.44
That brass receiver with the sleek handguard is sexy, but the toggle lock looks like a beast! I imagine it could easily be converted to semi-auto with a gas tube running to a piston and a simple return spring under the toggle handle. A self-loading rifle with a 22" under-barrel tube magazine and roughly 1.5" OAL cartridge gives a ... call it 12+1 round capacity (leaving room for the compressed spring and follower). WW1 may have looked VERY different if that was the Allied grunt's rifle, instead of 5/6 round bolt actions.
That 1872 is like some sort of bastard love child between a rolling block rifle, a luger, a lever action rifle, and a dash of Lee Navy thrown in for good measure, I love it, haha.
Now this i really want
Wow, the way to operate the first reminds of some ARs and the second of a German Luger. Cool guns.:D
Very interesting designs I got to say.
This guy saw a Henry and thought: I can do better!
I don't know if it's just me but all the videos for this week have had really low audio levels. For me it's easy to just turn up the volume, but if i forget and go to another video then i'm blasted by loud noise :P Check your levels Ian or up them when editing? Sorry i hate to complain. Love your videos!
Both of those actions would be pretty good if mated to a lever or pump action. Both seem a little ungainly for practical use.
how many varieties of cartridges did those a just able blocks allow it to use?
The second one with the toggle lock solved one of the problems the military had with those tube magazine rifles. This you could operate from the prone position.
Macnutz420 lay down and run a marlin 336. Its a myth. Lever is shorter than an ar mag.
Randy Magnum I have shot a number of lever action rifles and carbines from the prone position. I found some were problematic but some were easy. All of them force you to readjust sight alignment with each use of the lever. With many bolt action you have less readjustments to make with the bolt action. None I what I said will be true for every rifle or even perhaps shooters of different sizes. I know I had to twist a bit to the left to properly work the lever on most lever action guns.
I do not know about the specific weapons you are mentioning. I agree that the idea regarding this specific issue has probably exaggerated but it has some truth. I believe I would have Much preferred a bolt action to a lever action in the trenches of WWI.
Soldiers are going to be sensitive to things that can cause them to expose themselves more, even a tiny bit.
I believe the mud and dirt problems in the trenches would have been more common and serious than for the bolt action, because of the action it self. I know the Russians used some lever action rifles in WWI but none or very very damned few of them survived the war and the revolution. So, no one knows how they performed.
I have my own opinion because of youthful comparisons between several different rifles and carbines that belonged to friends and relatives.
I believe they saw little military use for more reasons than the difficulties one might run into in prone firing. People like simple pat answers.
Randy Magnum second reply, I did those comparisons because I believed they had made a mistake regarding the effects of the lever action on a prone shooter. I loved lever actions and could fire a lever action faster than a bolt action. But not in prone position, it took me longer to get back in the sights.
Try varmint hunting with a lever action, you will quickly discover how difficult it is to work the lever action without exposing your self or warning the prey. If you get really good at it, you still rotate and wave the end of the barrel a bit. You can learn to operate the bolt, slowly, without taking your eyes off target while keeping the noise of the action dampened.
At least that was my experience.
Wow those are both really neat. Too bad he didn't continue developing firearms. Our loss.
The toggle action version deserves a reproduction
Ok, I would really like to see footage of these rifles in action.
I miss the older videos from the auction houses for some reason.
I like that toggle lock model
So you could fire several sizes of cartridge in the Mk One Robinson rifle as long as they were the same diameter?
That is really cool if thats the case, proper frontier engineering and innovation. Making it so you can use a wide variety of ammo to super cheap settlers is fricken brilliant!
I kinda wish more manufacturers did this sort of thing. But you know like. Modern and not life threatening to make use of.
Arbhall McDougall yeah, probably like short, long, and long rifle for .22 rifles.
@@wizardofahhhs759
What about .22 Magnum?
The innovation back then was just amazing. And not a CAD program in sight!
The brass receiver rifle has a very interesting design.
Ian you should consider that the first gun may be more prone to firing out of battery, hence the second one had the addition of the bolt extension above the hammer. when the toggle is part open you can see it does not clear the hammer. the first gun looks like it could fire when not in battery. maybe that was one of the reasons the designer considered the second gun superior.
@forgottenweapons for future reference, please put up the volume in your videos, specifically when you're using the video from distant view, I have to put the volume much higher than normal and if using bluetooth headset, I can't hear you at all.