Hoseless Air Integrated Computers Are Safe - Scuba Tech Tips: S10E20
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 15 เม.ย. 2020
- Viewers have asked if hoseless dive computers are safe for everyday diving. Alec explains why hoseless dive computers are as safe as Air Integrated (AI) computers.
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I love your video series, a little bit of humor. A right sense of informations FOR divers and as an extra tipps and tricks....
And a crazy Collector, too.
Perfect!
Glad you like them! Thanks for watching.
anther good thing with some hoseless AI computers is you can also add your dive buddies transmitter number to it and can check their air pressure as well
New models have that feature to monitor 5 to 10 divers. Great for instructors with new divers.
I like your info about the good points about the wrist mounted computer. I was trying to decide between the wrist and house mounted. I’m getting back into diving after many years of not diving. They weren’t around when I used to dive!
Glad I could help another 'stone age' diver get back into the sport.
Hi Alec,
Small clarificalion about communication. The Aqua-Lung transmitter (which I assumed your transmitter uses) sends the information using low frequency (38 kHz i.e. in LF band) radio communication (copied from Shearwater Teric manual). This is indeed radio frequency even it is well lower as e.g. the AM stations (300 to 3000 kHZ i.e. MF). Its just over thr VLF band which is used e.g. by the submarines while under water. The reliable working distance is about one meter i.e. a bit over 3 feet. Because the communication os only from pressuer transmitter to computer you can have multiple computers receiving the same transmitter. I normally dive with two (Shearwater Perdix AI and Teric) but with only one transmitter.
The FCC is always reassigning frequencies anyway so you might as well call it all RF. Why do you think some VHF channels disappeared.
Appreciate the clarification. I like to keep the tech simple and emphasize the function/benefits. I know some love getting into the kHz but simple easy for my old brain to remember.
Thanks for the feedback.
Alec
@@toriless What are you trying to say?
Well, Alec, the dinosaur diver (me) finally brook down an AI computer. Aqua Lung i450T. Now I am going to have to find a young person to teach me how to use it. Truthfully. I do miss the good old days when diving was less tech, but at least these new-fangled gadgets are heading in the right direction-less crap hanging all over you like an octopus. At least that is a step in the right direction. I started diving in 1961, to me the glory years. Keep up the great work, I especially like the vintage stuff.
Welcome to the 21st century my stone age diver buddy. After reading the manual twice, it should be simple to set the date, O2 and preferences for the majority of your dives. You will love it as computers made my diving fun again.
Alec
Great vid, as always.
Only even five years ago I would have loved that, meanwhile I'm more in large displays... 🙄
Old eyes like big displays.
Alec
Couple of points of (my) thought on the subject of AI hoseless rigs:
1) everytime i've ever seen an SPG fail, its because it's been stamped on by someone or had another cylinder dropped on it. Having you computer/pressure monitor on your wrist, where it can stay for the duration of both your dive and in fact your trip (esp if involves messing around in boats....) is imo, a far safer place for it
2) Whilst the HP pressure sensor looks a bit vunerable sat directly on the 1st stage, i think it's actually not too bad. Yes, it can get banged around, and if your do more extreme dives (wrecks / caves etc) then you might want to consider protecting it (pros and cons here btw), but as Alec says, if it suddenlystops reporting your cylinder pressure, you just end the dive.. You check your air regularily (don't you?!?) and you know you had enough air prior to the failure, so you stil have enough air now, so just end the dive in a calm and measured way and there are no problems.
3) Personally, i have my sensor pod mounted directly onto the 1st stage, no short link hose. This is because of the failure case is significantly more benign, and because there are less things to actually fail i total. With the sensor flapping round on the end of a hose, the hose can fail, there are more O rings to fail, but those faiures not only lead to a non-functioning sensor, but potentially also to a loss of breathing air!! With the pod direct mounted, there is just one O-ring (same as if there were a blanking plug in the HP port....) and the sensor itself tends to have a hermetic metal section, which is very unlikely to have its integrity compromised (ie to release HP air from your cylinder). Careful orientation of my 1st stage means in my case, being a bit of a lanky tall git, realistically hitting the sensor whilst diving is low probability, because it's buired down between my BCDs balck plate and the 1st stage itself. So whilst perhaps the probability of damage to the sensor under certain conditions is increased (vs a hose mounted sensor) that failure is significantly less critical.
Everyone I know that has one mounts it directly too and some have been diving eons like Alec.
@@toriless and yet the only diver I've been with who has one directly mounted broke it the first time we dove together off a kayak - mind you pulling a tank out of the water and sliding it off the back out at sea is NOT an easy task and gets banged up. That was a $400+ day for him :( I think he now uses a small hose.
As well as stamped on, add recall's too. Kevin had his AI 'blow up' on the first dive in Cozumel (he had a backup computer). Turns out it was sent in for service twice with no recall mentioned or notified. It was replaced under warranty but it does happen.
Alec
@@alaind831 The transmitter can be broken no matter how it is mounted if you smack it hard enough. I an little confused on what was being done though. How can you be pulling it out of the water when it is still on you back??
@@toriless when you kayak dive, you leave your gear in the water floating (attached) and climb onto your kayak (which is hard enough) then pull/slide the tank onto the back of the kayak. Same thing getting into the water.
I have an AI unit but I also hook up a backup analog air gauge to the second HP outlet that is tucked in the BCD. If the AI ever fails THEN I can pull it out and check my air supply and we can decide what to do about it and how much time we have before we abort. I have not need it but that is true for other safety gear. I did have a dive master borrow my medics scissors once. He was my teacher for a class. I highly recommend them as must have gear.
That is a good plan. Many divers and instructors now carry a full time backup dive computer like a Suunto Zoop Novo or Oceanic B.u.d for under $300 CDN.
Thanks for watching.
Alec
@toriless I agree that it’s a great idea to have that back up, but one of the big benefits to my mind of AI is to do away with that hose. Instead of your setup I have a button gauge in the second HP outlet. It means that if the AI pressure reading fails, I can’t read my tank pressure myself (without taking my gear off) but my buddy (who is my son) can read it off the button gauge on my first stage. He has the same setup and of course we cover it on our pre-dive safety checks and what I call “actions on” drills. Button gauges can be bought very cheaply. A good back up alternative that does away with the need for that hose.
@@neilhughes3529 That could work too but since mine is tucked away it is not that much of any issue for me. I am already dealing with 4 other hoses anyway since we need dry suits for a relaxed dive in WA.
@toriless fair enough. We dive in Northern Ireland so it’s dry suits for us too all year round in the cold Irish Sea! In my view having the extra inflator hose with the dry suit is all the more reason to try to do away with the SPG and hose if you can, but no argument with the principle of having the redundancy of an extra gauge of some sort. Different strokes for different folks 😀
Thanks for explaining it to the “rest of us” by the way got my dry suit cert over the weekend wouldn’t have my open water if it wasn’t for your videos
I got my dry suit certification at the same time as my OW. I did not take too much longer that way. Several additional exercises but they go quickly. It really gives you confidence and you feel more relaxed knowing no matter what goes wrong you know how to fix the situation an it is actually pretty easy. The worst is when the zipper is not QUITE done enough and that cold drizzle flow om one shoulder and you have to signal the other person and then fix it. I would not use dry suit without proper training.
So glad to know I helped you keep on learning Ivory.
Alec
@@toriless > I would not use dry suit without proper training.
it's really not that hard if you are already an experience diver... yeah I started diving 40y ago, but took a long break, and when I started diving here in cold Monterey waters again a few years back, I quickly realized I needed to get one. Picked up a couple used and figured how to fix them (replacing seals) and how to dive with it - even sold one back to my now dive buddy and we both were new to drysuit. I don't dive without mine even when hunting lobster down south - being dry in a fleece with doing multiple dives is priceless.
Some of the mistrust of hoseless air integrated computers comes from the first Suunto model that they released in the 90’s! If the connection was lost with the transmitter the only way to reestablish it was to go to the surface and reset it, they were recalled and replaced with a model that did not have that problem. I have been using hoseless air integrated computers since the Uwatec (sold by Scubapro) Air Z O2 came out in the mid 90’s without a single failure!
It took several years to get dive computers to be very reliable, safe and accurate where a spg is no longer needed (recreational divers only).
Alec
you missed the biggest down side to wireless.... cost and the fact the transmitter are easier to break (looks like a tank handle to some - you can put a very short flex hose to fix that) and are like $400 to replace alone! buddy broke his recently during a kayak dive. I picked an older one (part of someone entire gear) and ended up selling it as I didn't want a monster watch on when lobster diving and shoving my hands in tight spaces... meanwhile still using my used cobra AI which I got for pretty much free. Having a real compass is nicer too. But yeah one fewer hose would be nice (I have 5 with drysuit :)
There are pro's and con's for AI vs transmitters of course but divers generally pick safety or convenience/no hose. Kevin dives with a Cobalt 2 AI and Oceanic OCi wrist for backup (he had a dive computer blow up on a dive). The great thing about diving is there are so many shinny new dive computer options to pick from. Thank for the feedback Alain and your support.
Alec
I like your idea with the short hose.
there is actually one major benefit for hose AI computers is the price. most hoseless computers are so expensive, but not quite good as some new hose computers. I have a I550 aqualung, amazing dive computer but only 499 :)))
Yeah, they are often twice as much, sometimes more. Make sure you get one with a big display fro the important information. Some are too cluttered. Same for hosed models.
That's generally true as wrist computers pack so much into a small space vs a AI Cobalt 2's big screen. It's like split fins, they exist, some love/hate them but its your choice.
Alec
@@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter Split fins most depends on the condition of the divers legs. I do fine without them but my legs have some muscle. The wife use split fins and now her legs do not hurt anymore.
I used an Oceanic Pro+ for about 13 years until it started failing and have since switched to the Atomic Cobolt like the one you showed. I cannot use a wrist mounted unit simply because my eyes are so bad that I cannot see the numbers if on my wrist. I need a console style air integrated computer just because the digits are big enough for me to see them.
Welcome to the 'big displays please' group. My wrist computer I can only see the big display of depth the rest need squinting. But the Cobalt can be held away and I read everything fine. See my video on prescription lens inserts for masks. Thanks Clint.
Hi Alec
What do u think about using a small pice of flex hose to connect the transmitter to your 1st stage instead of just screwing it straight to the 1st stage so someone doesn’t brake it? Just wondering
Thanks
Will
PS~ Still think u should write a book
Will cave divers do that all the time
IMO, only for certain extreme diving uses (not recreational!), and only where the design of your 1st stage ports means the sensor pod ends up in a very vunerable location. And even then, i'd probably take the option of breaking the sensor (due to impact damage) but keeping all my air for me to breath, vs having an additional hose fail which causes the sensor to misread AND bleeds away my breathing air into the water...........
This is used by the rebreather divers to get the transmitter to better (less vulnerable) location. It is fully functional if you can fix the transmitter mechanically well enough.
@@mikkosport2300 Indeed. With proper fixings and "Hardpiped" ie metal HP pipework with fixed metal on metal seals then this is probably a higher overall reliability despite the higher parts count and added complexity!
It you did I would also attach it in place somewhere out of the way, safe and still operable. I am no expert but probably the front shoulder near the neck?? I guess? Alec???
I also prefer to just use my Perdix AI with transmitter these days. One less thing to possibly get snagged and it's a lot cleaner of a setup for me.
As long as it works well for you, it's perfect.
Alec
Hi Alec,
Love your channel, a bit too much according to my girlfriend haha, so keep those videos coming. I learn a lot.
I have a, maybe silly (but going to ask you any way), question regarding hoseless air integrated computer:
Basically the transmitter sends out a signal to your computer showing the data. Is this a unique signal? Can it happen, if your dive buddy has a same transmitter and computer and is close to you, that your computer shows the data from your buddy instead of your own and vica versa? Can it also apply with different brands?
Something I was wondering
Also had a question about wetsuits.
As a newbie diver, I'm think of buying my own wetsuit for same reasons you mentioned in your videos.
What makes a wetsuit suit you perfectly (size, fitting, etc)?
Is it possible to share some tips that I can take into consideration when buying a wetsuit?
Hope you find the time viewing/responding my questions.
Greetings from Belgium
Kenneth
Lots of questions Kenneth so let me hit the important ones. Regarding hoseless computers, each transmitter has a unique serial number you set in your wrist computer. Visit any manufacturer to read up how it works or download their product owners manual to read up on its operation.
A good fitting wetsuit depends on your shape. If like Kevin, get a hot air ballon, if off-the-rack works, it should be snug all around, be very stretchy. Try several on and try doing toe touches and deep knee bends which will show how comfortable it moves with you. Hope this helps get you started. Visit your local dive store and try on suits remembering it needs to touch your skin to keep you warm so avoid loose/baggy suits. Take care.
@@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter thank you for the tips and information!
I love my aqua lung i770r 👍
It does have a big display, good for older eyes!
Alec
There are still some more disadvantages to an AI Computer compared to using an SPG:
If the AI Compuer breakes down (for whatever reason), you are left with no information at all. No depth, no dive time, no air pressure, nothing. With two separate systems (computer ans SPG), i will allways keep at least parts of the information i need.
Also: Sometimes i don't actually need the computer. I do lots of my dives in quite shallow water, like 8-10 meters. I don't have to worry about decompression on those dives. I do carry a computer, as i like the easy way to collect some information about the dive: max depth, dive time, temperature, etc. But if my computer fails for some reason, this is not a reason to abort the dive. This changes a lot, if the computer is the only way to know my tank pressure. So an AI computer increases dependency on one single item.
My third point is, that a computer has technologically more fail points. An SPG is absoluteley simple. There are few things to it:
- threads
- a housing
- an overpressure valve of some kind
- a mechanical pressure measuring device, usually a spiral
- a device to transfer the measuring, usually a little rod
- a device to show the pressure, usually a tounge an a face
A hoseless IA computer has all of these in different forms, but also some more:
- threads
- two housings (sensor and computer)
- an overpressure valve in the sensor
- an electronic pressure sensor
- an electronic device to translate the sensore value to a pressure
- a radio transmitter
- a radio reciever
- the electronics of the computer
- the display
- two batteries (sensor and computer)
So there are more fail points to it.
Weak points for me are the pressure sensor and the batteries. Electronic pressure sensors age. Some age really badly and will then show very wrong values after some years. Not every sensor may so that, but it's inherent to that kind of technology.
Batteries are the second big weak point. Well, everyone knows, that you have to replace them at some point. The problem is, that the computer may tell you this too late. Batteries tend to die under cold conditions. So the computer may think the battery was fine on the surface. But later in the cold water, the battery may die very quickly. This happened to a buddy of mine.
So altogether i consider it unwise to totally trust in an "electronic SPG" of any kind, including AI computers. It is a nice gimmick, but i would always carry a spare SPG. This may be a personal thing, as i as a safety engineer really like redundancy and thus also carry a second device (a bottomtimer) to measure actual depth, max depth and dive time, in case my computer breaks down.
While it is possible for a dive computer to fail, it has become a rarity with the newest models being so reliable, I removed my SPG permanently. I started diving before SPGs were used. Also the cost of a backup dive computer being a few hundred dollars, many of my dive group clip one on as a backup. SPG's go one thing great, pressure measurement, but dive computers have so much more to offer like: logs, dive time remaining, SAC rate, NDL and so on. Much appreciate your deep analysis that others can benefit from also.
I’ve had my computer for 4 years and not once had an issue. Always keep spare batteries in my bag just in case but the computer actually warns you when battery is low so you can get it changed prior to it going flat.
Been diving with the same computer for well over 15 years(Suunto Cobra, air integrated console), not a single issue to report other than the occasional battery change. I've been wearing a wrist mounted computer as redundancy(Suunto Zoop, very affordable) for the last 5~6 years as well, just in case, and that too has been trouble-free.
Hi Alec i just completed rescue Diver today and am about to start Divemaster and would like to learn Scuba tech repair in the future.
love your channel i have a Question about AI, i have the shearwater Teric with the AI transmitter on my 1st stage it is only about a month old,
my regs are scuba pro mk 17 s560 and up until today i have not had any issues before today ,
what happened was i had sit out a fun dive because there was air escaping from multiple ports we tightened them and this still kept happening ,
we checked the system once we got back to the shop and discovered that the Transmitter o rings was broken which is odd as its only very new ,
i suspect that people are holding on to the transmitter when helping me into my BCD and that this was how the o ring was broken i just cant understand how mechanically this could of happened i am super careful with my whole gear and in particular my regs,
if its others handling of my gear how might i be able to mitigate any effect i saw online that some people attach a small piece of hose to the transmitter and that seems to work what are the disadvantages of this set up ,
cheers from New Zealand
Tim
Tim, I've been diving with my hoseless AI computer for a year. That was one of the warnings I got. Put it on a hose to prevent people from grabbing it when helping with your gear. It's too convenient to be used as a handle. Highly recommend that find a hose t attach your transmitter. I found 6 inch hoses (with the correct connections) on on eBay for about $10 US. Well worth it on dive trips where others may handle your gear. (Suunto Eon Core w/ transmitter)
With the transmitter 'snuggly' tightened into the 1st stage, there should be no movement affecting the o-ring even if someone pulls up on the transmitter. A good option is to get a 6" to 8" HP flex hose and put the transmitter on that. They won't grab the transmitter or hose to pull up the scuba unit. I know lots of divers who do this to protect the transmitter. Thanks for watching Tim.
@@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter thank you for the reply Alec , we made sure to tighten the transmitter and educate the rest of the group on how to lift
everyone will eventually have the same bcd and teric setup anyways i just got all my gear first. although I have been sitting on the tralier and getting into my setup that way also means I can have my integrated weights in already and save my buddys
Im looking at the hose option as well.
Like many things this happening has been a great lesson in Scuba equipment and how to fix it .
Cheers
@@cowboyf1699 thanks for the advice , its to easy for people to use as a handle for sure , but a bit of education in our dive group has fixed this issue .
I am looking at a hose option in the future
I guess people will worry the "Diver Watch" goes away. "First they took our big shiny knifes, now they take our big shiny watches." *gruntlegruntlegruntle* 🤣 And whoever "they" is. 🤣
It may, I think I am the only one I know with one. Well, except Alec who has one of everything. Some of which I never heard of.
That's funny. When I stared a real diver had a 7-8" blade to kill sharks, eels and monsters. Not it's how big and expensive is your dive computer!
Alec
@@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter I still have one but leave it ashore. No such monsters where I am diving. Mostly dungeness crabs, fish and distant harbor seal making noises.
Watch computers are great. AI is great. There is only one downside to hoseless AI: cost. Transmitters inexplicably cost as much as entry level computers, despite not being technologically that complex.
Regarding reliability, nobody is preventing you from also having a console as backup. In fact, my transmitter manual advises to also have at least a pressure gauge or HP over-pressure valve. So might as well have a backup analog console tucked neatly out of the way. My reg conveniently routes the HP downwards, so it really easy to tidy it on the backplate and down to my kidney.
All good points Kimon. Thanks for sharing.
Alec
That is kind of my thing. If you don't want to go straight to computers keep your console, and run both. I would bet money, most people would get rid of their console pretty quickly.
I think of Walt Disney and Disneyland. He always said, "Disneyland is not a museum. We will always be improving it." I would venture that most people use the newest technology when they got into SCUBA (when ever that was). So why not continue to update?
These systems certainly are Radio Frequency, which just means they use electro-magnetic radiation with a frequency less than infra-red. My Suunto is at 123kHz, which is in the Low Frequency RF band and propagates well through water, and pretty well through your body, which is mostly water. They don't need much radiated power to go a maximum of 6 feet or so! I think they're great, and I've never heard of any temporary loss of connectivity. I've never had a failure or data outage of any sort. One thing I would recommend though is mounting the pod on a 6" HP hose rather than direct to the 1st stage. That way if you clonk something you won't break or otherwise damage it. I also dive with a hose-mounted SPG, but that's just because I'm an old b*****d that likes to have 2 of everything!
Being old means you make lots of mistakes that didn't kill you so you must be almost as smart as me! Thanks Tim.
Alec
@@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter I've certainly had many learning opportunities!
You state that if you have to use a rental regulator set you do not have to worry because your dive computer is on your wrist. That is correct BUT unless you transfer the transmitter you lose the air integration. This could also be done with a "hosed" air-integrated dive computer. What is to stop you taking a normal SPG on the second HP outlet?
That is exactly what I was thinking. No point in having one otherwise.
Good point Michael, I intended to mean the transmitter goes onto the rental 1st stage but didn't come across. Thanks for the feedback.
Alec
Could two divers using the same gear possibly get incorrect readings from their buddy's computer transmitter? I would think if they were at least a meter or so apart from each other, then probably not? Or is the frequency unique to each transmitter?
It is keyed to the serial number of the transmitter so should not be a problem unless you set them both up same serial number I don’t think it will let you do that
What Ivory said. The transmitters don't just transmit "2873 PSI' over and over again, the data packets are more along the lines of "I am Transmitter 8675309, trying to talk to dive computer 98734286, if that's you, my pressure is 2873 PSI, please respond so I know to keep transmitting"
@@squidlybytes I wonder what frequency they use. Transmission is quite different in water the the air.
No that is impossible. With some brands it is possible to connect a 2nd transmitter so you can keep an eye on your buddy's air consumption.
Most 1st stage transmitters are keyed by serial number to the wrist computer to prevent wrong reading. As others in this list have said, there is built in security checks and remember the range is short too.
Alec
i run a Shearwater Perdix AI on a 6 inch hose with a angled swivel so it dont get broke. but i still run a spg.
Yeah, I run both but the analog is just backup.
An spg as backup is not a bad idea as long as its checked before a dive to ensure it matches the Perdix. There are so many choices in gear setup some divers go overboard.
Alec
You make a comment at around 2:48 that transmitters do NOT use radio frequency. That is incorrect. They absolutely transmit RF signals. Shearwater transmitters, for example, transmit at 38 kHz. People tend to make the mistake of thinking the radio frequencies are only what you hear on your radios, but that is not true. RF signals are line-of-sight, meaning that your receiver needs to be have a clear path to the transmitter. High power transmitters can overcome this to a degree (radio towers transmitting your favorite radio station) but tank transmitters are extremely low power. The reason you often lose connectivity with your transmitter is that your body is in the way. Simply move your wrist to your left (if you're wearing it on the left) and you will regain connectivity.
Even Bluetooth uses RF transmissions as does you wireless router.
You're right Kevin, it uses a frequency and I missed clarifying the specifics.
Alec
What computer do you use Alec? Safe diving. // Joakim
Oceanic OCi wrist with transmitter.
Alec , technology is good, but a watch that is a dive computer also and has air integration is as reliable as you would mount the propane gas regulator for the stove on the scuba tank and go dive with it. There are things in this world than are better to be deddicated that all in one. I would never trade my shearwater petrel for a D9TX for example. What is the point on integrating so many features on a tiny lityle screen.... bit that is my point of view.
The shearwater petrel is over 800€!!. My whole diving kit is less than that
You can switch your Petrel to Perdix AI. Same SW, better design and AI. D9 (yes, had two of thosr with pressure tx) is outdated. Teric is marwelous replacement if you would like to have a wirst eatch size computer with AI (TMX and CC support comes extra).
I just think that is a bit too small. They make bigger units too. Heck, my old dive watch has a bigger display.
That's a fair point. In my last store Scuba 2000, getting a diver to buy their first computer was a BIG deal, not just the cost but in confidence it will work. Helping a diver to buy a 2nd or 3rd dive computer cost was low on the list with features being #1.
Appreciate your feedback Chirana.
Alec
This chanel has so much information that should replaced the padi course.
Thanks Kui. It's always generic so any diver can relate to it whatever their certification agency.
How often do you need to change batteries? Seems the batteries would be the weak point.
Same as in dive computer, The Cobra use a similar watch battery and they last for quite a lot of dives.
toriless cool. So just remember every time you replace one you go ahead and replace the other. Sounds like a plan.
Transmitter batteries generally last a long time as they only turn on when pressure is on. Wrist computers are on all time time with the clock. There is always a menu item or display on the wrist indicating battery strength and some type of indicator when low like 20-25%. Enough time to replace both computer and transmitter batteries together to ensure no problems.
Alec
@@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter Maybe they could make them use wireless charging like everything else these days.
@@magiclarry7688 It is good idea to replace the rubber seal too but I get away with doing it every other time.
me too
We agree.
Alec
Is that a white Oceanic OCI that Alec has on his wrist?
Yes, my personal dive computer.
Alec