I've been obsessed with Venus since I was a little kid. A planet almost the same size as Earth with almost the same composition ending up so different fascinated me, and still does.
as an object of study, no problem. As something to land probes on - no. they all melt from the heat, and eroded by the acid. The longest a probe has lasted is about 90 minutes - and then the carried along refrigerant ran out.
I've been obsessed with it for years. I can't tell you how many times I've looked at those Venera images of the planet's surface, straining to make out any detail in that sky, wishing that those landers had lasted just a few hours, or even minutes longer and that its cameras had captured just a few more images. I really don't think the Soviets ever received the kudos from the West they were due for such a remarkable achievement so long ago. I can also imagine the weather forecast for Earth's 'evil' twin, and it might go something like this..." it looks like it's gonna be another long, hot scorcher of a day here on the 'love planet' folks(at 243 Earth days, Venus's exceedingly slow retrograde rotation means its day is longer than its year and the sun rises in the west and sets in the east). For all those sun worshipers out there, you're 'gonna be disappointed because those butterscotch overcast skies will persist all day long, and that mercury's 'gonna push well into the low 900s (Fahrenheit that is, more than enough to melt lead), but at least it's gonna be a real dry heat folks! Higher altitudes can expect ongoing showers(yep, sulfuric acid), but not to worry 'cuz there's little to no chance they'll reach us down here on the surface. By midday, we can expect the surface pressure to reach an uncomfortable 1330 PSI(roughly 92 times that of Earth's surface or the equivalent of 3000 ft. below sea level, well beyond the crush depth of a nuclear sub). It looks like those upper atmosphere winds will approach 200mph again today, but not to worry folks, 'cuz they'll remain a barely perceptible 2-3 mph down here on the surface...not even enough to fly a kite." It makes me grateful we live on such a relatively benign, 'garden' planet like Earth.
Love it! I recall once, while on holiday in the US, a weatherman saying something along the lines of, “and if you’re out shopping at the mall in the car, don’t forget to crack a window for granny”. It’ll be a long time before we terraform Venus but.....
@@khorga485 I don't think it's necessary to nitpick inconsequential details. I was too busy absorbing the quality of the content to focus on a beard...
@@farrenn9514 When you highlight the "fantastic audio" i would not call it "nitpicking" to point out there is a slight scratching sound through the entire thing. You are right, its hard to notice and the quality of the content easily distracts you from it. But then praise the content, not the audio.
@@RustyStringz You would not land on Venue. Think cloud cities like in star wars. At 30 miles up (50km) the temperature, air pressure, and gravity are similar to Earth. You would need to wear a clean suit, not a pressure suit. You could fill a balloon with nitrogen, it would stay at the correct height. or very close to it. I think you would start by mining the atmosphere, instead of the planet. I believe Musk uses CO2 to make his fuel. Venue's atmosphere is 90% CO2. Instead of making 10 trips from Earth to the orbiting fuel Depots, you could make 1 trip from Venus to the orbiting fuel depots. No, the gravity at 30 miles up is the same as that of Earth at Sea level. Venus is tipped on it's axis at 90%. It's poles at facing East and West. It's day is longer than it's year, and it's orbit is retrograde. Meaning it spin west to East instead of East to West. I think it was hit by something very large. This might have something to do with the fact it has no moon. I don't know how fast the atmosphere is moving. I've heard 300 mph. I don't know if that's at the surface, 30 miles up, or both.
At 7:00 the question is asked, why are there fewer than 1000 craters on Venus as that doesn't make sense? Well of course, Venus has a much thicker atmosphere, so anything travelling at high speed burns up much faster including any smaller meteorites.
1:05:20 I love the idea of extended balloon missions, to see wind patterns and how it can passively navigate, and improve models for temperature and conditions by altitude. I like the idea of earth-like gravity, earth-like pressure, earth-like temperature, and some radiation protection. And some cameras to show if the vista of clouds is inspiring, or dull and oppressive? Could it be a place human base be interesting and inviting? I like the idea of trying to keep an automated greenhouse and see if we can get microbe or plants to grow in the balloon, see how long we can keep it alive. We've never tried to keep anything alive above low earth orbit before. So it could be a micro "biosphere 2" system with closed system of recycling wastes, but augment by supply inputs that can't be maintained, and extend the duration.
After a discussion, I asked ChatGPT to write me up a project proposal and time! Make it so! ---------- Proposal for a First Balloon Mission to Venus Introduction Venus is a unique planet in our solar system, with a thick and dynamic atmosphere that has fascinated scientists for decades. Despite several successful missions to the planet, much about its atmosphere remains unknown. To explore the atmosphere of Venus and better understand the planet's weather and climate, we propose a balloon mission to the upper atmosphere of Venus. This mission will involve launching a series of autonomous balloons into the atmosphere of Venus, equipped with sensors and instruments to gather data on the planet's atmosphere. Mission Objectives The primary objectives of the mission are as follows: * To study the atmospheric conditions, including temperature, pressure, wind patterns, and chemistry, at different altitudes and latitudes of Venus. * To measure the cloud composition and structure in the upper atmosphere of Venus, including the cloud particles' size, shape, and chemical composition. * To study the atmospheric dynamics, including the formation and behavior of atmospheric features such as vortices, waves, and eddies. * To assess the feasibility of long-term human habitation in the upper atmosphere of Venus. Mission Design The proposed mission will involve launching a fleet of autonomous balloons into the atmosphere of Venus from an orbiter or lander. The balloons will be designed to withstand the harsh conditions of the Venusian atmosphere, including high temperatures, pressure, and corrosive sulfuric acid. The balloons will be equipped with a range of instruments, including temperature and pressure sensors, cameras, and spectrometers, to measure the atmospheric conditions and cloud properties. The balloons will be designed to operate independently, each capable of adjusting its altitude and position to follow the wind patterns and gather data on different regions of the atmosphere. The balloons will be powered by solar panels and will be designed to have a long lifespan, allowing them to remain in the atmosphere for months or even years. Communication and Navigation To communicate with the balloons, we propose establishing a network of satellites in orbit around Venus. These satellites will provide navigation and communication support for the mission, allowing us to track the position and status of the balloons in real-time. The balloons themselves will be equipped with navigation and communication systems, such as Doppler radar or radio beacons, to provide real-time location information back to mission control on Earth. Conclusion In conclusion, we believe that a balloon mission to Venus will provide valuable insights into the planet's atmosphere and help us better understand the planet's weather and climate. The proposed mission will be challenging, but we believe that with careful planning and design, it is achievable. The data gathered by this mission will be invaluable to future missions to Venus and to our overall understanding of the solar system. Rough timeline for the mission: Design Phase: Year 1 (2023): Research and conceptualization of balloon mission, including balloon design, instrumentation, and communication systems. Development Phase: Year 2-3 (2024-2025): Detailed design of the balloon, testing of materials for corrosion resistance, development of propulsion and navigation systems, testing of instrumentation, and development of communication systems. Year 4 (2026): Manufacturing and assembly of the balloon and its components. Launch Phase: Year 5 (2027): Launch of the balloon from Earth, with an expected transit time of 4-6 months to reach Venus. Main Mission Phase: Year 6-7 (2028-2029): Once the balloon reaches Venus, the main mission phase begins, which will include navigating the balloon to various altitudes and latitudes to study the atmosphere and climate. The main mission will last for 1-2 years, depending on the performance of the balloon and the success of the mission objectives. Wrap-up Phase: Year 8-9 (2030-2031): At the end of the main mission phase, the balloon will be maneuvered to a safe landing site on Venus or allowed to descend into the planet's atmosphere. Data and findings from the mission will be analyzed and reported. Year 10 (2032): Final report of mission results published and mission officially concluded.
Provided you had a good supply of water (which would have to be imported as the planet has none in any state, or perhaps capture hydrogen to make water), there's no reason a cloud island on Venus couldn't be made to work. Though we clearly need to refine our human habitable terrariums, we don't want oxygen levels getting too low like the scientists who immured themselves in Biosphere Two experienced! And one of the most important steps in this regard would be to let cement (or a concrete like material) to cure thoroughly so it doesn't suck up all the oxygen!
I'm listening to this now, and it's terrific. One favor, Fraser: could you find someone obsessed with Mercury and interview them for an hour, too? There's a lot of interesting facts and puzzles about Mercury too -- though probably not as many as for Venus!
that interview would have been a good opportunity to ask about balloons. This guy seamed to know a lot about not just planed missions, but also what Ideas for missions there are. Since you r Obsessed with Venus now, there might be more opportunities like this. As stated before I am especially interested in the Idea of using differences in temperature for as a power source. short explanation of how it would work: the balloon would alternate between 2layers. On the lower layer it would boil the water use the steam for power and than as a lifting gas to get to the higher layer. on the higher layer it would use the lower temperatures to condensate the vapour back into water.
@@Razm-a-Tazzi do you mean the hull, or the gondola? mostly by using materials, that are up to the temperatures. remind you, we don't go all the way down to the ground.
Phosphene is in the clouds of Jupiter, did life create it there? I'm a retired aerospace engineer and studied biology for life support systems. I stopped believing the fairy tale that life assembled itself through natural processes after seeing how complicated even the simplest life is. Origin of Life research has no research into relevant early Earth conditions that is meaningful. Fossil record shows the sudden appearance of photosynthetic life 3.6 billion ya and as my biology professor wondered was that for billions of years there was no evolution, just the same archaebacterial prokaryotes making the oxygen we breath.
54:20 - Regarding plate tectonics, the reality is that Einstein's theories of Relativity predate our understanding of plate tectonics, so it's no surprise that the conference Dr. Byrne references spent so much time trying to come to an agreement with their terminology, let alone failing to answer the topic. It's incredibly complicated, and basically still a new science in the scheme of things.
Venus has been my favorite planet for many years. I am so excited that there is finally some missions there in the near future. I find it the most fascinating planet. There is so much we can learn from it. And in my opinion, Venus is the best planet to colonize. Maybe the only one.
Titan is better . Would be cool to colonize clouds woold give us a new trip to mars . Would have to bring every supply to Venus tho . Unless it’s in the atmosphere for extraction .
@@jondoc7525 You get a lot from the atmosphere. You only need the hydrogen to make water. And you can make a lot of stuff out of carbon. But yeah most you have to bring. But Venus has almost the same gravity as earth, same air pressure and temperature. The in sky. Floating cloud city just sounds so cool. And it has protection from radiation with it's thick atmosphere. We can get a lot more solar energy at Venus and energy from the heat below.
@@kristinehansen.Talking out your ass , Venus does NOT have the same temperature and gravity as Earth. Not even close Venus is 900 degrees F hot enough to melt metal 😂😂😂
Perhaps no iron core? Or an iron core not rotating? At least, with a lot of volcanoes there must be a high temperature in the inner part of the planet, perhaps it can be too hot also, that all the volcanoes tell us the temperature are too high for a magnetic field to be created?
Not an astrophysicist here, but I’ve wondered if our collision with the proto Moon and the enormous thermal energy created by the collision accounts for our still molten core. And of course the spinning core creates our magnetic field.
Magellan was a SAR, an imaging radar that used photoclynometry (shape from shading) to make a topo-surface (DEM). VERITAS is an InSAR, which directly measures topography, so it will be fabulous. Also: don't make you grad student look for volcanoes by hand. Use "Radon transformations" to find circular features (it's like an FFT finding frequency peaks that you cannot "see" with your eye).
I love your channel and discussions! Admittedly, I have zero math skills but I have a passion for space sciences and astronomy and your content is amazing even if I have to rewatch the videos a couple of times to fully grasp the content. I wanted to share how much I liked his passion for this pursuit, his depth of understanding about multiple disciplines, and the collaboration he’s involved in to advocate for and advance the study of Venus. (Edit) Elon has his BFR and Dr Byrne has his BABS. I say they’re the new wonder twins! Take us to Venus! I couldn’t agree more with investing a greater proportion of the budget on our Solar System. Even if we found another earth like inhabitable planet, we won’t be able to do anything about it. Focusing on our Solar System and learning g how to live in space, close to home, makes sense on so many levels… one of with being reality.
This was a fantastic episode. I could have listened for another two hours. Venus certainly does not get the love and attention it deserves. This means you, Mars.
@@frasercain With two and a half NASA missions on the way I'm just wondering Why WHY WHYYYYY DIDN'T NASA get together whit ESA JAXA And others and build a flagship mission the cost of a flagship mission is higher but the science reword is also so much higher And as a collaboration between others than NASA would be out of pocket just a tad more than now And I'm willing to bet that if NASA had a flagship mission on the table agencies from around the world would jump at the possibility of being a part of it An ISS style collaboration to Venus What would be better other than two flagship missions that is 😂 Just saying 🇳🇴
This was such an enjoyable interview to listen to. Very digestible while the hypotheses posed like the necessity of magnetic fields and plate tectonics were fascinating
Loved the ‘funky sh…..stuff’ guest you had on today. Dr. Paul Byrne’s perspective, context and his wonderfully oversized advocacy for focusing on Venus made for a great interview. All you had to do (Fraser) was light the blue touch-paper and stay well back to receive the avalanche of information… A great listen, his voice was clear, his ambition / motivation made a compelling story of Venus exploration for the past successes and failures and future reasons and prospects for Venusian science. Make Paul an annual event and I’ll book it for listening time definitely!
I was also obsessed with venus simply because it litteraly is earth in a diffrent point in its life and also it has the most earth like environment we know of in the cloud layers
The "benign" environment in the clouds of Venus still seems to be a conceptual blind spot for too many space enthusiasts. Perhaps floating around among the Venusian clouds doesn't excite them?
@@algorithmgeneratedanimegir1286 Seems like a fantastic vacation spot. Vacationing in a city in the clouds with 81 degrees F and near normal atmospheric pressure. th-cam.com/video/EwH686rgyBg/w-d-xo.html
1) If we build sun-shade for Venus, how fast would the atmosphere condense and drop down? 2) If we were to depoy aerostats at 50km altitude where it is comfy, would we be able to build a floating city (with air as lifting gas)? Could such a city replicate itself? Could it mine surface for metals?
The reason Venus is so hot isn't because it's close to the sun. It's the atmospheric makeup that causes extreme heat. We would have to change that which is possible just would take a lot of work and ships capable of bring asteroids back from the asteroid belt and hitting Venus with them.
It's a better concept than terraforming, something that would require a solar system worth of resources and probably wouldn't work. Instead of going there and trying to make it here we should use what is *different* about these places to find new ways of existing. If we don't need to live on the surface and can exist fine in the clouds why should that bother us?
My favorite case scenario is humanity be able to safely change orbits of planets and moon's and give to Venus a orbit around Planet Jupiter or between Jupiter and the asteroid belt...😯👍😎🙂
With a long zylon tether and a hard diving suit like aparatus with an umbilical refigration system delivered power from the blimp, I think some actual footprints on the surface would be possible, for just a few minutes mind you. It could get a few surface samples though.
my working hypothesis is that venus due to its proximity to the sun was bestowed with more heavy elements like uranium causing the presumably iron core to stay liquid and unable to freeze out/solidify to form the backbone of the dynamo, the hotter core would explain the abundant vulcanism and outgassing of volatiles into a thick thick atmosphere, in wich the GreenHouse effect is just the cherry on top, since the surfase pressure/temperature is quite uncomfortable i propose next venus missions to be flown as Balloons at various altitudes and also occaissionally to peek under the clouds to take pictures of the surface with todays technolies resolutions. BTW, Really Like Your channel , your enthousiasm is enough to lift us out of the gravity well.
Why not create a probe that cycles between near-ground level and upper atmosphere to mitigate temperature effects and explore more widely. Similar to a submarine diving and surfacing repeatedly. Could be fairly passive mechanism combined with inertia of initial dive into deep atmosphere
Venus' rotation rate means that the Sun is up for 120 days straight (120*24=2880 hours). On Earth, the temperature goes up by 1.0C for every hour that the sun is up. If you do the math on how energy is accumulating on Venus during that 2880 hour long day, the temperature gets to 450.0C on the dayside just because the solar energy accumulates faster than it goes back out and this happens for 2880 hours (this can be calculated by joules/second rates in and joules/second rates out and then the Stefan-Boltzmann equations for the resulting temperature). On the first day this rotation rate established itself, (probably 4 billion years ago), the ocean completely evaporated by mid-morning on that very first day and it all went into the atmosphere. Then every volatile compound in the now dry surface that could turn into a gas was baked out and also went into the atmosphere. One solar day, 450C and 90 bars atmospheric pressure. Rotation rates around 10 to 60 hours is required for a habitable planet.
From a space settlement point of view, I think about 40km above the surface of Venus is the only other place in the solar system where there is roughly earth gravity, temperature and air pressure.. and earth atmosphere acts as a lifting gas there so you can imagine cloud cities there. Additionally, due to upper atmosphere rotating faster than surface, I think the "Day" on a cloud city would be about a week long rather than the hundreds of days long on the surface. Im not sure but I think that height might be above the clouds so you would get reliable solar?
Sure, but there’s no way to extract resources from the surface to make the settlement sustainable. The only exports would be gases from the atmosphere.
Speaking of volcanos, the Valles Caldera in New Mexico has always fascinated me due to its size and complete loss of its cone. When it blew, it must have been something. If I recall correctly, it launched blocks weighing 90 tons over 6 miles. The Bandelier Tuff (ash deposit) is incredibly thick, up to 3,000 feet deep. In the Bandelier National Park, Native American ruins are carved from the tuff cliffs and bluffs. Valle Caldera is considered one of the world's largest super-volcanoes, rivaling Yellowstone, and is still regarded as active. Yet, it is rarely talked about. If you happen to be in the Sante Fe area, Los Alamos, it is well worth seeing. It is now a beautiful nature preserve.
I do like Venus more than Mars because its such an alien planet that could potentially be fantastic. A sunshade would change the planet in such a drastic way. It would be fascinating to see.
With a second watch, I've noticed and learned things I missed the first time around (admittedly, while doing other stuff then, LOL), but I still agree that, yeah, Venus is pretty important to study, at least as much as Mars, if not moreso. Thank you again for these fascinating interviews you do, Fraser - keep it up, please!
It seems to me that the extremely slow rotation of Venus plays a huge role in why it is inhabitable. The rotation is too slow to have a rotating magnetic core, so it has no protective magnetic field. The sun likewise cooks one side of the planet for roughly 100days at a time because the days are so long. Yeah, I know the greenhouse effect is a huge factor, but I’m wondering if researchers fully taken into account the length of the heat up cycles and huge winds that move heat around rapidly. In other words, even if a world is in the habitable zone without sulfuric acid clouds, perhaps such a slow rotation would make it inhabitable
49:00-54:20 (especially at 52:31) And why Mercury have bigger magnetic field than Mars today although it's smaller in terms of total diameter (but also have higher density and bigger core towards mantle)...No doubt impressive facts but i am not pretty sure if is enough to explain why....🤔🤔🤔
The key I think is biology. The Mars program was killed by a declaration that Viking had failed to find life (which I found unscientific at the time, but so be it) and was re-energized by "follow the water," which was astrobiology by other means. The key to Venus IMO is biology in the clouds, which has never been properly explored (and which won't be really explored by the new Venus missions either).
There's a private Venus probe that will try to find evidence of life in the clouds, but I think you're right. None of the current mission ideas can do much to find evidence of life.
I read a book many years ago called Venus Revealed. A history of the space race between US and USSR, but also some other interesting facts that really make me ponder its significance in human history and culture and religion. It's that 'star next to the moon' in all those flags of Islamic countries.
I'm obsessed with Venus, too. As far as habitat, it has similar gravity as earth (8.87 vs 9.8). The terraforming challenges will be enormous. Starting with processing all the CO2, and increasing the rotation such that a single day is 24 hours instead of 5,832 hours. And if we're going to convert mercury to computronium, or even just a Dyson swarm, Venus is better situated to make that happen.
Man, this is a comment on a year old video, but I am so ready for the first modern missions to Venus. The findings, no matter what they are, will be fantastic.
A method that created our moon also gave us plate tectonics. Venus needs the same sort of moon process. This may even help create a strong internal Dynamo
@@larscarter7406 I do hear an awful lot about how the period of meteor collision gave Earth its water. However, I don't really hear that specifically extending to include the major collision with Theia. Perhaps it's assumed? Anyway, I propose that Earth's collision with Theia (a possibly water-rich world like Ceres, frozen water ice and all that), gave Earth an interior dynamo and resulting magnetosphere, plate tectonics, a moon responsible of dictating Earth's rotational characteristics, tides, the oceans themselves, and possibly more. Sort of makes me want to bust Ceres out of its orbit and slam it into Venus in the same perfect glancing blow.
Had to go back and rewatch this interview,. Thank you Frasier, your questions and this brilliant guy Dr Byrne's answers really spiked my interest for Venus. Now I can't even explain why o why I never before had any interest... Thanks, hope you will keep your obsession and relay more videos our way...
I have never been interested in Venus. Until a few years ago. As a kid I was only a little interested since it often gets presented as Earth's "twin" or "sister planet" but once it became obvious it was just a living hell, I pretty much gave up hope of it being an interesting place to visit or dream about. Flash forward to a few years ago, I read a book titled "2312" about the year.. 2312. Part of a the plot points in that book is that humanity is terraforming Venus, and it lists steps for it in a way that seemed quite plausible! Then, Kurzgesagt released a video about terraforming Venus, which essentially brought the process I read about to life in slick animated graphics. Now I think, Venus is even more interesting than Mars! It will be likely a thousand years before we can even start to make Venus a second home, but until then, there ARE a lot of questions that it may answer. Like the ones you two discussed! It really is essentially an exo-earth, right next door! So to speak.
I always thought it was impossible for a rocky planet to keep its atmosphere so close to the sun without magnetism. Especially not one as thick as Venus.
I think it has to do with earth sized worlds possessing immense amounts bulk volatiles in their warmer mantles and persistent volcanism needed to constantly release those gases and maintain an atmosphere over geologic time but also the gravity required to hold it all down. Keep in mind that even though Venus' atmosphere is massive it likely already lost a couple Earth's worth of atmospheres in the form of lighter molecules. The Co2 is heavy enough to stick around even without a magnetosphere so it built up without a long term sequestration mechanism such as oceans, convective plate tectonics or even carbon fixing life. As matter of fact if earth wasn't constantly sequestering Co2 it would have easily built up here too so my theory is if Venus had an ocean and life they didn't exist long enough to sequester the Co2 maybe due to being closer to the sun, less initial bulk water content, massive impacts, insufficient magnetosphere or extreme volcanic events that boiled off the oceans and anything in them. From there a Co2 rich atmosphere naturally builds up which I actually think is the most common path for earth sized rocky worlds with volcanism but no long term oceans or carbon fixing life.
@A. Forbes CO2 isn't strong enough to be the reason it's hot. CO2 has a very limited heating effect and Venus being so much closer to the sun is the reason it's hot. That and the lack of magnetics.
@@algorithmgeneratedanimegir1286 That's a bit inaccurate, while CO2 does have a fairly limited heating effect at the concentrations and magnitude present on Venus it is the main reason the planet has a higher constant surface temperature than Mercury which is much closer to the Sun. As matter of fact Venus is actually in the Sun's habitable zone for liquid water. So without the dense CO2 atmosphere Venus would be a tropical planet which is what scientists initially thought it was before sending probes. Being closer to the Sun would only make it tens of degrees hotter than earth with all other things being equal to the atmospheric parameters of earth, 41C degrees to be exact vs earth's average of 15C rather than the couple hundred degrees we currently observe.
I remember around 10 years ago was when I realized that Venus is probably a better place to go to than Mars. People always talk about terraforming Mars, but in reality it's unrealistic compared to Venus. Making an entire atmosphere to Earth like levels is basically impossible on Mars, the scale of gasses that would need to be either chemically made or exported to Mars is just so staggering it's completely nonviable. Venus on the other has the opposite issue of having too much atmosphere, but that's a far easier problem to solve. There are many ways you can almost passively reduce the atmosphere pressure and being that it's nearly all CO2 making oxygen is easy. Mars is also mostly a CO2 atmosphere as well, but it's trace so using it takes far more effort and energy to do the same work. Unlike Mars where the main struggle is atmosphere, on Venus the bigger issue is water. When Venus transformed to what it is today the hydrogen broke away from the water molecules and blew out to space. But water is nearly completely recyclable and is far easier to handle compared to gasses. Being able to walk anywhere but have limited water is far easier to deal with than needing a tank to breath and having some water.
I seem to recall there being some expression of zeitgeist in the scientific community in the early 90's that searching for life would NOT be a priority of NASA. Then that changed. Was it a generational thing?
I wish Paul showed us some slides while talking. I know it's a podcast, but still, it would have been very interesting watching a whole seminar on Venus. But yes, I also think Venus is hugely underestimated while it's super interesting. Also, it could be easier to colonize (on a floating habitat, not on the surface) since it's closer and has more transfer windows to Earth which is important if you want to send a lot of stuff there. Also, it has more Sun. Thank you, Fraser, for this interview.
I think we should work on a long term robotic mission to venus. The first piece would be giant baloon, a floating base, high enough in the atmosphere to be well above the hottest atmosphere. That could run missions, or it could act as a base for further roboti. exploration. A later mission could even be manned if the base stayed at the right height in the atmosphere.
I think the balloon idea is terrific. Design a hardened instrument cluster that could be lowered by cable down to the surface, perhaps receiving coolant through the tether lines connecting it to the balloon, which could survive for a number of hours to take readings and collect samples from the surface, before being retracted back up out of the hellish surface conditions, to deliver its samples back to the balloon "mother ship" overhead in the "earthlike" temperature zone of the atmosphere... at some point those samples could be robotically transferred to a rocket to launch them out of Venus's atmosphere into orbit, where they could then rocket back to Earth for analysis, or be captured by an Earth return vessel designed to transport them back to Earth. A mission capable of lowering an instrument sled down to the inhospitable surface could return massive amounts of useful data and measurements as well as samples.
YES. It is all about Venus. I was hooked after I learned of hypothetical floating structures. It has so much potential for so many things including colonization. Mars is so dead and pointless by comparison.
Excellent interview/QnA. Thanks! Rising temperatures on earth speak simply and increasingly loudly to me that USA's further procrastination on funding the exploration/study of Venus will be done at Earth's peril.
At my part of this planet, the temperature hasn't raised in the 8 decades I've lived here. Summer, fall, winter, spring pretty much stay in the same range they always have. Don't swallow everything people try to feed you. If your only salvation is submitting to authority, the threat is always fake.
For real this Guys a sheep . Earth can absorb like 6-7 times the Carbon currently here . Plants already can from our past . Sun cycles , glaciers growing , our place in the galaxy orbit , earth changing forest to desert before we exist and back die to our 20k earth wobble . Lots of money in tricking you
The Copper age started almost simultaneously everywhere around 1500 BCE. Copper is strongly related to sulfur. Venus' atmosphere contains a lot of sulfur. Like the biblical brimstones raining from the sky, the copper came from the sky, too. Auroral Precipitation, i.e. an atmospheric alloying process. Yeah, Venus is very interesting, especially when you know about the works of Immanuel Velikovsky and maybe some other things... I got some brimstones, too... Rather rock solid proof, I would say.
Venus could never be stood on by a human, It is so hostile that standing would require so much that you wouldn't really be doing that at all. Picture standing a km deep in the sea, but your not in water, it's not air, more like a goo that's twice as hot as broil in your oven. That's a hard sell.
I used to be obsessed with Venus. But now I'm obsessed with building planets out of raw materials extracted from other planets. Doing it that way would allow you to control the exact composition, which would allow you to control geologic and weather activity. I must be sounding like a supervillain right now.
Not exactly planets, but rotating worlds with an inner surface area of New Jersey. We get the materials to build these artificial worlds from the Moon, asteroids, and so on.
@Felix Qaasim Do you recall which episode that is? I would expect that we can simply extract material from Mercury to build solar panels and use the sun's own energy to power everything.
Venus is far more interesting than Mars. Venus was the first planet I aimed my first telescope at back in 2001. I will admit Jupiter was more jarring because I immediately saw four moons. I never looked at Saturn. I should have. Being able to see the rings would have been awesome, but Venus still holds a special place in my heart.
What are the night time temperatures on Venus? What about the poles? I would assume that because of the heavy atmosphere, the temperatures are pretty even, IE: very little temperature difference. Will there be some probes that can check out these new places on the surface? How about remotely measuring the temparatures
The THIRD option for the formation of Venus is that it's very young, perhaps a mass ejection from Saturn at a time when Saturn was transitioning from a Brown Dwarf star into the gas giant that it is now. That could easily explain why it's so hot. It would explain why it had water, as Saturn has copious amounts of water that would have been liquid in its Brown Dwarf stage, though that water would be out-gassed very quickly. It likely is simply too young to have developed any life. And it's core may settle into a magnetic iron core that generates a stable magnetic field. But, unlike Earth that was capable of retaining its water, I don't see that there is any way for Venus to have any water capture. The water it had is gone and it's not coming back...
I would be interested in Dr Byrnes opinion on’ If Venus had had a Earth like moon it would have been a mor earth like planet’ BTW Great to see a fellow Irishman doing such a great job in planetary science.
The difference in rotation has always struck me as a crucial factor to be considered. Can't help but wonder if the Thera collision gifted yet another key benefit besides the moon and perhaps plate tectonics.
Great interview guys. Another reason for the recent interest in Venus has to be the greenhouse effect. As Earth gets warmer, will we end up like Venus?
Regarding volcano heights: The reason the tall volcanos are on mars is because its gravity is 3/8g. Note that Mons Olympus is 8/3 times taller than Everest. This is because: it is the maximum weight continental crust can support before it deforms and sinks.
I am so glad people are taking Venus seriously again as a destination for mankind. In some part I blame this lack of interest in the relative US success with Mars missions and the relative early USSR success with Venus missions. I have always been. A supporter of seeding Venus with bacterial life forms from Earth to return it to a closer analogue and also in the meantime using floating platforms in the atmosphere as a home to human outposts. I would still rather focus efforts on Venus colonisation than Mars and would note that Starship is just as suitable for Venus exploration as Mars.
0.9g nearby would be an absolute blessing for any kind of manned presence, until the return. Automated science missions would be hugely justifiable, it seems, EXCEPT that committing funds in any major new direction is likely to tighten the purse-strings all round.
4:31 when saying earth has pretty much been habitable all its existence you mean after its completion in forming because it always had water from start of creation?
I've been obsessed with Venus since I was a little kid. A planet almost the same size as Earth with almost the same composition ending up so different fascinated me, and still does.
as an object of study, no problem. As something to land probes on - no. they all melt from the heat, and eroded by the acid. The longest a probe has lasted is about 90 minutes - and then the carried along refrigerant ran out.
I bet AI will figure out a way to clear the atmosphere and reduce pressures. Venus might be explorable in 1 thousand years.
Well, it's a lot closer to the Sun than we are.
@@suburbanraider I bet this bet will never be settled
@@BIGREDDOG09 I would like to hold the funds until then.
I've been obsessed with it for years. I can't tell you how many times I've looked at those Venera images of the planet's surface, straining to make out any detail in that sky, wishing that those landers had lasted just a few hours, or even minutes longer and that its cameras had captured just a few more images. I really don't think the Soviets ever received the kudos from the West they were due for such a remarkable achievement so long ago. I can also imagine the weather forecast for Earth's 'evil' twin, and it might go something like this..." it looks like it's gonna be another long, hot scorcher of a day here on the 'love planet' folks(at 243 Earth days, Venus's exceedingly slow retrograde rotation means its day is longer than its year and the sun rises in the west and sets in the east). For all those sun worshipers out there, you're 'gonna be disappointed because those butterscotch overcast skies will persist all day long, and that mercury's 'gonna push well into the low 900s (Fahrenheit that is, more than enough to melt lead), but at least it's gonna be a real dry heat folks! Higher altitudes can expect ongoing showers(yep, sulfuric acid), but not to worry 'cuz there's little to no chance they'll reach us down here on the surface. By midday, we can expect the surface pressure to reach an uncomfortable 1330 PSI(roughly 92 times that of Earth's surface or the equivalent of 3000 ft. below sea level, well beyond the crush depth of a nuclear sub). It looks like those upper atmosphere winds will approach 200mph again today, but not to worry folks, 'cuz they'll remain a barely perceptible 2-3 mph down here on the surface...not even enough to fly a kite." It makes me grateful we live on such a relatively benign, 'garden' planet like Earth.
Very funny comment
@@cougar2013 Thank you!
Best comment on TH-cam! 👍
@@IdeologieUK Haha...Thank's!
Love it!
I recall once, while on holiday in the US, a weatherman saying something along the lines of, “and if you’re out shopping at the mall in the car, don’t forget to crack a window for granny”. It’ll be a long time before we terraform Venus but.....
Dr Byrne is clearly passionate and knowledgeable but I want to give credit for what a great speaker he is.
Love this bloke. Anyone so on top of their game inspires me no end.
DITTO!!!
as a venus obsessive I loved this interview, thank you
As a Mars obsessive, me too. (:
since elementary school Venus has always been one of my fav planets( and io was one of my fav moons)
Fantastic audio! I have never seen a creator interact with their audience and action their suggestions the way you do, Fraser. Hats off to you!
Hmm but you totally missed the interaction with the mic and the beard... aren't ya? Just 1/3 of an inch would have done the trick ... :P
@@khorga485 I don't think it's necessary to nitpick inconsequential details. I was too busy absorbing the quality of the content to focus on a beard...
@@farrenn9514 Sure anything is subjective in this world in the end... have a good one anyway
Sexist to not respect the beard adequately
@@farrenn9514 When you highlight the "fantastic audio" i would not call it "nitpicking" to point out there is a slight scratching sound through the entire thing. You are right, its hard to notice and the quality of the content easily distracts you from it. But then praise the content, not the audio.
A sizable moon might be very important to creating plate tectonics.
A moon would be easier to land on, sample, and return to earth.
Maybe set up a mining operation for minerals that are in short supply on earth too?
.@@RustyStringzAlmost everything mined on the moon would be used on the moon or a nearby orbiting station.
@@RustyStringz You would not land on Venue. Think cloud cities like in star wars.
At 30 miles up (50km) the temperature, air pressure, and gravity are similar to Earth. You would need to wear a clean suit, not a pressure suit. You could fill a balloon with nitrogen, it would stay at the correct height. or very close to it. I think you would start by mining the atmosphere, instead of the planet. I believe Musk uses CO2 to make his fuel. Venue's atmosphere is 90% CO2. Instead of making 10 trips from Earth to the orbiting fuel Depots, you could make 1 trip from Venus to the orbiting fuel depots. No, the gravity at 30 miles up is the same as that of Earth at Sea level.
Venus is tipped on it's axis at 90%. It's poles at facing East and West. It's day is longer than it's year, and it's orbit is retrograde. Meaning it spin west to East instead of East to West. I think it was hit by something very large. This might have something to do with the fact it has no moon. I don't know how fast the atmosphere is moving. I've heard 300 mph. I don't know if that's at the surface, 30 miles up, or both.
Fraiser, your interviews are so frigging interesting and educational. Thank you.
At 7:00 the question is asked, why are there fewer than 1000 craters on Venus as that doesn't make sense? Well of course, Venus has a much thicker atmosphere, so anything travelling at high speed burns up much faster including any smaller meteorites.
1:05:20 I love the idea of extended balloon missions, to see wind patterns and how it can passively navigate, and improve models for temperature and conditions by altitude. I like the idea of earth-like gravity, earth-like pressure, earth-like temperature, and some radiation protection. And some cameras to show if the vista of clouds is inspiring, or dull and oppressive? Could it be a place human base be interesting and inviting?
I like the idea of trying to keep an automated greenhouse and see if we can get microbe or plants to grow in the balloon, see how long we can keep it alive. We've never tried to keep anything alive above low earth orbit before. So it could be a micro "biosphere 2" system with closed system of recycling wastes, but augment by supply inputs that can't be maintained, and extend the duration.
After a discussion, I asked ChatGPT to write me up a project proposal and time! Make it so!
----------
Proposal for a First Balloon Mission to Venus
Introduction
Venus is a unique planet in our solar system, with a thick and dynamic atmosphere that has fascinated scientists for decades. Despite several successful missions to the planet, much about its atmosphere remains unknown. To explore the atmosphere of Venus and better understand the planet's weather and climate, we propose a balloon mission to the upper atmosphere of Venus. This mission will involve launching a series of autonomous balloons into the atmosphere of Venus, equipped with sensors and instruments to gather data on the planet's atmosphere.
Mission Objectives
The primary objectives of the mission are as follows:
* To study the atmospheric conditions, including temperature, pressure, wind patterns, and chemistry, at different altitudes and latitudes of Venus.
* To measure the cloud composition and structure in the upper atmosphere of Venus, including the cloud particles' size, shape, and chemical composition.
* To study the atmospheric dynamics, including the formation and behavior of atmospheric features such as vortices, waves, and eddies.
* To assess the feasibility of long-term human habitation in the upper atmosphere of Venus.
Mission Design
The proposed mission will involve launching a fleet of autonomous balloons into the atmosphere of Venus from an orbiter or lander. The balloons will be designed to withstand the harsh conditions of the Venusian atmosphere, including high temperatures, pressure, and corrosive sulfuric acid. The balloons will be equipped with a range of instruments, including temperature and pressure sensors, cameras, and spectrometers, to measure the atmospheric conditions and cloud properties.
The balloons will be designed to operate independently, each capable of adjusting its altitude and position to follow the wind patterns and gather data on different regions of the atmosphere. The balloons will be powered by solar panels and will be designed to have a long lifespan, allowing them to remain in the atmosphere for months or even years.
Communication and Navigation
To communicate with the balloons, we propose establishing a network of satellites in orbit around Venus. These satellites will provide navigation and communication support for the mission, allowing us to track the position and status of the balloons in real-time. The balloons themselves will be equipped with navigation and communication systems, such as Doppler radar or radio beacons, to provide real-time location information back to mission control on Earth.
Conclusion
In conclusion, we believe that a balloon mission to Venus will provide valuable insights into the planet's atmosphere and help us better understand the planet's weather and climate. The proposed mission will be challenging, but we believe that with careful planning and design, it is achievable. The data gathered by this mission will be invaluable to future missions to Venus and to our overall understanding of the solar system.
Rough timeline for the mission:
Design Phase:
Year 1 (2023): Research and conceptualization of balloon mission, including balloon design, instrumentation, and communication systems.
Development Phase:
Year 2-3 (2024-2025): Detailed design of the balloon, testing of materials for corrosion resistance, development of propulsion and navigation systems, testing of instrumentation, and development of communication systems.
Year 4 (2026): Manufacturing and assembly of the balloon and its components.
Launch Phase:
Year 5 (2027): Launch of the balloon from Earth, with an expected transit time of 4-6 months to reach Venus.
Main Mission Phase:
Year 6-7 (2028-2029): Once the balloon reaches Venus, the main mission phase begins, which will include navigating the balloon to various altitudes and latitudes to study the atmosphere and climate. The main mission will last for 1-2 years, depending on the performance of the balloon and the success of the mission objectives.
Wrap-up Phase:
Year 8-9 (2030-2031): At the end of the main mission phase, the balloon will be maneuvered to a safe landing site on Venus or allowed to descend into the planet's atmosphere. Data and findings from the mission will be analyzed and reported.
Year 10 (2032): Final report of mission results published and mission officially concluded.
Provided you had a good supply of water (which would have to be imported as the planet has none in any state, or perhaps capture hydrogen to make water), there's no reason a cloud island on Venus couldn't be made to work. Though we clearly need to refine our human habitable terrariums, we don't want oxygen levels getting too low like the scientists who immured themselves in Biosphere Two experienced! And one of the most important steps in this regard would be to let cement (or a concrete like material) to cure thoroughly so it doesn't suck up all the oxygen!
I'm listening to this now, and it's terrific. One favor, Fraser: could you find someone obsessed with Mercury and interview them for an hour, too? There's a lot of interesting facts and puzzles about Mercury too -- though probably not as many as for Venus!
Agrèe! Mercury is a fascinating world, (not least the orbit)
Especially re Mercury's magnetic field, and it's decay rate.
Paul was awesome :) Another interesting interview.
that interview would have been a good opportunity to ask about balloons. This guy seamed to know a lot about not just planed missions, but also what Ideas for missions there are. Since you r Obsessed with Venus now, there might be more opportunities like this.
As stated before I am especially interested in the Idea of using differences in temperature for as a power source.
short explanation of how it would work: the balloon would alternate between 2layers. On the lower layer it would boil the water use the steam for power and than as a lifting gas to get to the higher layer. on the higher layer it would use the lower temperatures to condensate the vapour back into water.
Balloons will work great on Venus. The atmosphere is way heavier than Earth, so even gasses like oxygen and nitrogen have buoyancy
@@vidyaishaya4839 so does water vapour in lower layers
Musik, You have an interesting idea but how would we keep the balloon from melting?
@@Razm-a-Tazzi do you mean the hull, or the gondola?
mostly by using materials, that are up to the temperatures.
remind you, we don't go all the way down to the ground.
I went through the same thing following the Phosphene 'discovery/non-discovery'. Now I sit waiting impatiently for VERITAS, DAVINCI, etc.
Phosphene is in the clouds of Jupiter, did life create it there? I'm a retired aerospace engineer and studied biology for life support systems. I stopped believing the fairy tale that life assembled itself through natural processes after seeing how complicated even the simplest life is. Origin of Life research has no research into relevant early Earth conditions that is meaningful. Fossil record shows the sudden appearance of photosynthetic life 3.6 billion ya and as my biology professor wondered was that for billions of years there was no evolution, just the same archaebacterial prokaryotes making the oxygen we breath.
54:20 - Regarding plate tectonics, the reality is that Einstein's theories of Relativity predate our understanding of plate tectonics, so it's no surprise that the conference Dr. Byrne references spent so much time trying to come to an agreement with their terminology, let alone failing to answer the topic. It's incredibly complicated, and basically still a new science in the scheme of things.
Venus has been my favorite planet for many years. I am so excited that there is finally some missions there in the near future. I find it the most fascinating planet. There is so much we can learn from it. And in my opinion, Venus is the best planet to colonize. Maybe the only one.
Titan is better . Would be cool to colonize clouds woold give us a new trip to mars . Would have to bring every supply to Venus tho . Unless it’s in the atmosphere for extraction .
@@jondoc7525 You get a lot from the atmosphere. You only need the hydrogen to make water. And you can make a lot of stuff out of carbon. But yeah most you have to bring. But Venus has almost the same gravity as earth, same air pressure and temperature. The in sky. Floating cloud city just sounds so cool. And it has protection from radiation with it's thick atmosphere. We can get a lot more solar energy at Venus and energy from the heat below.
@@kristinehansen. much harder to start tho , but it’s on the list after titan the gas station
Sky city ftw
@@kristinehansen.Talking out your ass , Venus does NOT have the same temperature and gravity as Earth. Not even close Venus is 900 degrees F hot enough to melt metal 😂😂😂
What a phenomenal watch/listen. Never thought of Venus in this sort of perspective. Thanks for your time gentlemen
Still trying to understand why Venus doesn't have a magnetic field like Earth so a deeper understanding of Venus seems critical.
Perhaps no iron core? Or an iron core not rotating? At least, with a lot of volcanoes there must be a high temperature in the inner part of the planet, perhaps it can be too hot also, that all the volcanoes tell us the temperature are too high for a magnetic field to be created?
Not rotation iron core.
Venus rotation is too slow. So it can’t generate a magnetic field.
Not an astrophysicist here, but I’ve wondered if our collision with the proto Moon and the enormous thermal energy created by the collision accounts for our still molten core. And of course the spinning core creates our magnetic field.
@@beefandbarley Our collision was with a planet the size of Mars, not a proto Moon
Magellan was a SAR, an imaging radar that used photoclynometry (shape from shading) to make a topo-surface (DEM). VERITAS is an InSAR, which directly measures topography, so it will be fabulous.
Also: don't make you grad student look for volcanoes by hand. Use "Radon transformations" to find circular features (it's like an FFT finding frequency peaks that you cannot "see" with your eye).
I love your channel and discussions! Admittedly, I have zero math skills but I have a passion for space sciences and astronomy and your content is amazing even if I have to rewatch the videos a couple of times to fully grasp the content.
I wanted to share how much I liked his passion for this pursuit, his depth of understanding about multiple disciplines, and the collaboration he’s involved in to advocate for and advance the study of Venus.
(Edit) Elon has his BFR and Dr Byrne has his BABS. I say they’re the new wonder twins! Take us to Venus!
I couldn’t agree more with investing a greater proportion of the budget on our Solar System. Even if we found another earth like inhabitable planet, we won’t be able to do anything about it. Focusing on our Solar System and learning g how to live in space, close to home, makes sense on so many levels… one of with being reality.
Such a great interview and you absolutely should revisit this with Dr. Byrne in the future.
Absolutely thrilling, highest grade content! Thanks for your work.
I could listen to Dr Byrne all day. Great stuff, thanks.
This was a fantastic episode. I could have listened for another two hours. Venus certainly does not get the love and attention it deserves. This means you, Mars.
Paul is a lot of fun, we've talked many times in the past so I knew it would be a banger.
@@frasercain
With two and a half NASA missions on the way I'm just wondering
Why WHY WHYYYYY
DIDN'T NASA get together whit ESA JAXA And others and build a flagship mission the cost of a flagship mission is higher but the science reword is also so much higher
And as a collaboration between others than NASA would be out of pocket just a tad more than now
And I'm willing to bet that if NASA had a flagship mission on the table agencies from around the world would jump at the possibility of being a part of it
An ISS style collaboration to Venus
What would be better other than two flagship missions that is 😂
Just saying 🇳🇴
I agree 👍 greetings from the other side of Europe , greetings 🙋🏻♂️from 🇬🇷
This was such an enjoyable interview to listen to. Very digestible while the hypotheses posed like the necessity of magnetic fields and plate tectonics were fascinating
Loved the ‘funky sh…..stuff’ guest you had on today. Dr. Paul Byrne’s perspective, context and his wonderfully oversized advocacy for focusing on Venus made for a great interview. All you had to do (Fraser) was light the blue touch-paper and stay well back to receive the avalanche of information…
A great listen, his voice was clear, his ambition / motivation made a compelling story of Venus exploration for the past successes and failures and future reasons and prospects for Venusian science.
Make Paul an annual event and I’ll book it for listening time definitely!
I was also obsessed with venus simply because it litteraly is earth in a diffrent point in its life and also it has the most earth like environment we know of in the cloud layers
The "benign" environment in the clouds of Venus still seems to be a conceptual blind spot for too many space enthusiasts. Perhaps floating around among the Venusian clouds doesn't excite them?
@@M5a1r4c7 For what reason would you do that?😊
@@algorithmgeneratedanimegir1286 Seems like a fantastic vacation spot. Vacationing in a city in the clouds with 81 degrees F and near normal atmospheric pressure. th-cam.com/video/EwH686rgyBg/w-d-xo.html
Love the start. Strait to the point! Love it. 🎉
Very few craters seems to have a fairly intuitive answer: A super thick atmosphere would burn up all but the largest impactors.
As an Irish person, hearing an Irish accent out of the blue on your podcast is as surprising as the 'wow' signal.
FINALLY a video for the venus fanatics among us!! thank you for this :')
1) If we build sun-shade for Venus, how fast would the atmosphere condense and drop down?
2) If we were to depoy aerostats at 50km altitude where it is comfy, would we be able to build a floating city (with air as lifting gas)? Could such a city replicate itself? Could it mine surface for metals?
The reason Venus is so hot isn't because it's close to the sun. It's the atmospheric makeup that causes extreme heat. We would have to change that which is possible just would take a lot of work and ships capable of bring asteroids back from the asteroid belt and hitting Venus with them.
The Havoc mission concept is fascinating to me The idea of humans exploring the upper atmosphere by balloon
It's a better concept than terraforming, something that would require a solar system worth of resources and probably wouldn't work. Instead of going there and trying to make it here we should use what is *different* about these places to find new ways of existing. If we don't need to live on the surface and can exist fine in the clouds why should that bother us?
My favorite case scenario is humanity be able to safely change orbits of planets and moon's and give to Venus a orbit around Planet Jupiter or between Jupiter and the asteroid belt...😯👍😎🙂
I wonder how much water one could make out of Venus sulfuric acid clouds.
With a long zylon tether and a hard diving suit like aparatus with an umbilical refigration system delivered power from the blimp, I think some actual footprints on the surface would be possible, for just a few minutes mind you. It could get a few surface samples though.
my working hypothesis is that venus due to its proximity to the sun was bestowed with more heavy elements like uranium causing the presumably iron core to stay liquid and unable to freeze out/solidify to form the backbone of the dynamo, the hotter core would explain the abundant vulcanism and outgassing of volatiles into a thick thick atmosphere, in wich the GreenHouse effect is just the cherry on top, since the surfase pressure/temperature is quite uncomfortable i propose next venus missions to be flown as Balloons at various altitudes and also occaissionally to peek under the clouds to take pictures of the surface with todays technolies resolutions.
BTW, Really Like Your channel , your enthousiasm is enough to lift us out of the gravity well.
I like this idea, but doesn't Venus lack plate tectonics? Is the mantle just too hot for it?
Awesome guest, you can tell he loves his work. He radiates enthusiasm.
Why not create a probe that cycles between near-ground level and upper atmosphere to mitigate temperature effects and explore more widely. Similar to a submarine diving and surfacing repeatedly. Could be fairly passive mechanism combined with inertia of initial dive into deep atmosphere
Venus' rotation rate means that the Sun is up for 120 days straight (120*24=2880 hours). On Earth, the temperature goes up by 1.0C for every hour that the sun is up. If you do the math on how energy is accumulating on Venus during that 2880 hour long day, the temperature gets to 450.0C on the dayside just because the solar energy accumulates faster than it goes back out and this happens for 2880 hours (this can be calculated by joules/second rates in and joules/second rates out and then the Stefan-Boltzmann equations for the resulting temperature). On the first day this rotation rate established itself, (probably 4 billion years ago), the ocean completely evaporated by mid-morning on that very first day and it all went into the atmosphere. Then every volatile compound in the now dry surface that could turn into a gas was baked out and also went into the atmosphere. One solar day, 450C and 90 bars atmospheric pressure. Rotation rates around 10 to 60 hours is required for a habitable planet.
From a space settlement point of view, I think about 40km above the surface of Venus is the only other place in the solar system where there is roughly earth gravity, temperature and air pressure.. and earth atmosphere acts as a lifting gas there so you can imagine cloud cities there.
Additionally, due to upper atmosphere rotating faster than surface, I think the "Day" on a cloud city would be about a week long rather than the hundreds of days long on the surface. Im not sure but I think that height might be above the clouds so you would get reliable solar?
Sure, but there’s no way to extract resources from the surface to make the settlement sustainable. The only exports would be gases from the atmosphere.
Speaking of volcanos, the Valles Caldera in New Mexico has always fascinated me due to its size and complete loss of its cone. When it blew, it must have been something. If I recall correctly, it launched blocks weighing 90 tons over 6 miles. The Bandelier Tuff (ash deposit) is incredibly thick, up to 3,000 feet deep. In the Bandelier National Park, Native American ruins are carved from the tuff cliffs and bluffs. Valle Caldera is considered one of the world's largest super-volcanoes, rivaling Yellowstone, and is still regarded as active. Yet, it is rarely talked about. If you happen to be in the Sante Fe area, Los Alamos, it is well worth seeing. It is now a beautiful nature preserve.
What an interesting interview! A big thank you to all three of you: Byrne, Cain and youtube algorithm! :)
I do like Venus more than Mars because its such an alien planet that could potentially be fantastic. A sunshade would change the planet in such a drastic way. It would be fascinating to see.
Great interview. I really enjoyed this. It gave me a whole new perspective on Venus. Thank you both!
Thanks a lot, I'm glad you enjoyed it.
With a second watch, I've noticed and learned things I missed the first time around (admittedly, while doing other stuff then, LOL), but I still agree that, yeah, Venus is pretty important to study, at least as much as Mars, if not moreso. Thank you again for these fascinating interviews you do, Fraser - keep it up, please!
Super interesting discussion and great guest! Thanks!
this has to be my third? Fourth time listening to this video this year. the dude is so good at communicating
Best episode I've watched. Great stuff.
Glad you enjoyed it
It seems to me that the extremely slow rotation of Venus plays a huge role in why it is inhabitable. The rotation is too slow to have a rotating magnetic core, so it has no protective magnetic field. The sun likewise cooks one side of the planet for roughly 100days at a time because the days are so long. Yeah, I know the greenhouse effect is a huge factor, but I’m wondering if researchers fully taken into account the length of the heat up cycles and huge winds that move heat around rapidly.
In other words, even if a world is in the habitable zone without sulfuric acid clouds, perhaps such a slow rotation would make it inhabitable
I had paid very close attention to the Viking mission to Mars when it happened. I was in my early 20s and it intrigued me.
49:00-54:20 (especially at 52:31) And why Mercury have bigger magnetic field than Mars today although it's smaller in terms of total diameter (but also have higher density and bigger core towards mantle)...No doubt impressive facts but i am not pretty sure if is enough to explain why....🤔🤔🤔
The key I think is biology. The Mars program was killed by a declaration that Viking had failed to find life (which I found unscientific at the time, but so be it) and was re-energized by "follow the water," which was astrobiology by other means. The key to Venus IMO is biology in the clouds, which has never been properly explored (and which won't be really explored by the new Venus missions either).
There's a private Venus probe that will try to find evidence of life in the clouds, but I think you're right. None of the current mission ideas can do much to find evidence of life.
I read a book many years ago called Venus Revealed. A history of the space race between US and USSR, but also some other interesting facts that really make me ponder its significance in human history and culture and religion. It's that 'star next to the moon' in all those flags of Islamic countries.
Very cool video I love your channel I listen while at work 🙃
I'm obsessed with Venus, too. As far as habitat, it has similar gravity as earth (8.87 vs 9.8).
The terraforming challenges will be enormous. Starting with processing all the CO2, and increasing the rotation such that a single day is 24 hours instead of 5,832 hours.
And if we're going to convert mercury to computronium, or even just a Dyson swarm, Venus is better situated to make that happen.
Man, this is a comment on a year old video, but I am so ready for the first modern missions to Venus. The findings, no matter what they are, will be fantastic.
A method that created our moon also gave us plate tectonics. Venus needs the same sort of moon process.
This may even help create a strong internal Dynamo
Earth got a lot of water and iron from comet collisions, maybe Venus didn't.
@@larscarter7406 I do hear an awful lot about how the period of meteor collision gave Earth its water. However, I don't really hear that specifically extending to include the major collision with Theia. Perhaps it's assumed?
Anyway, I propose that Earth's collision with Theia (a possibly water-rich world like Ceres, frozen water ice and all that), gave Earth an interior dynamo and resulting magnetosphere, plate tectonics, a moon responsible of dictating Earth's rotational characteristics, tides, the oceans themselves, and possibly more. Sort of makes me want to bust Ceres out of its orbit and slam it into Venus in the same perfect glancing blow.
The guy has a hell of a lot of energy for Venus! 😂
Great episode. Absolutely can not wait to see more probes heading to Venus!
Had to go back and rewatch this interview,. Thank you Frasier, your questions and this brilliant guy Dr Byrne's answers really spiked my interest for Venus. Now I can't even explain why o why I never before had any interest...
Thanks, hope you will keep your obsession and relay more videos our way...
I have never been interested in Venus. Until a few years ago. As a kid I was only a little interested since it often gets presented as Earth's "twin" or "sister planet" but once it became obvious it was just a living hell, I pretty much gave up hope of it being an interesting place to visit or dream about.
Flash forward to a few years ago, I read a book titled "2312" about the year.. 2312. Part of a the plot points in that book is that humanity is terraforming Venus, and it lists steps for it in a way that seemed quite plausible! Then, Kurzgesagt released a video about terraforming Venus, which essentially brought the process I read about to life in slick animated graphics. Now I think, Venus is even more interesting than Mars! It will be likely a thousand years before we can even start to make Venus a second home, but until then, there ARE a lot of questions that it may answer. Like the ones you two discussed! It really is essentially an exo-earth, right next door! So to speak.
Thanks Dr. Byrne, Fraser. You had my brain churning during this entire interview. ;O)-
I always thought it was impossible for a rocky planet to keep its atmosphere so close to the sun without magnetism. Especially not one as thick as Venus.
I think it has to do with earth sized worlds possessing immense amounts bulk volatiles in their warmer mantles and persistent volcanism needed to constantly release those gases and maintain an atmosphere over geologic time but also the gravity required to hold it all down.
Keep in mind that even though Venus' atmosphere is massive it likely already lost a couple Earth's worth of atmospheres in the form of lighter molecules. The Co2 is heavy enough to stick around even without a magnetosphere so it built up without a long term sequestration mechanism such as oceans, convective plate tectonics or even carbon fixing life.
As matter of fact if earth wasn't constantly sequestering Co2 it would have easily built up here too so my theory is if Venus had an ocean and life they didn't exist long enough to sequester the Co2 maybe due to being closer to the sun, less initial bulk water content, massive impacts, insufficient magnetosphere or extreme volcanic events that boiled off the oceans and anything in them. From there a Co2 rich atmosphere naturally builds up which I actually think is the most common path for earth sized rocky worlds with volcanism but no long term oceans or carbon fixing life.
@A. Forbes CO2 isn't strong enough to be the reason it's hot. CO2 has a very limited heating effect and Venus being so much closer to the sun is the reason it's hot. That and the lack of magnetics.
And the fact that it has an insanely thick atmosphere. That's probly the biggest reason.
@@algorithmgeneratedanimegir1286 That's a bit inaccurate, while CO2 does have a fairly limited heating effect at the concentrations and magnitude present on Venus it is the main reason the planet has a higher constant surface temperature than Mercury which is much closer to the Sun. As matter of fact Venus is actually in the Sun's habitable zone for liquid water. So without the dense CO2 atmosphere Venus would be a tropical planet which is what scientists initially thought it was before sending probes. Being closer to the Sun would only make it tens of degrees hotter than earth with all other things being equal to the atmospheric parameters of earth, 41C degrees to be exact vs earth's average of 15C rather than the couple hundred degrees we currently observe.
@@algorithmgeneratedanimegir1286 That and an atmosphere so dense..
thats pretty much like water in the deepest depths. It'll crush you in an instant.
I remember around 10 years ago was when I realized that Venus is probably a better place to go to than Mars. People always talk about terraforming Mars, but in reality it's unrealistic compared to Venus. Making an entire atmosphere to Earth like levels is basically impossible on Mars, the scale of gasses that would need to be either chemically made or exported to Mars is just so staggering it's completely nonviable.
Venus on the other has the opposite issue of having too much atmosphere, but that's a far easier problem to solve. There are many ways you can almost passively reduce the atmosphere pressure and being that it's nearly all CO2 making oxygen is easy. Mars is also mostly a CO2 atmosphere as well, but it's trace so using it takes far more effort and energy to do the same work.
Unlike Mars where the main struggle is atmosphere, on Venus the bigger issue is water. When Venus transformed to what it is today the hydrogen broke away from the water molecules and blew out to space. But water is nearly completely recyclable and is far easier to handle compared to gasses. Being able to walk anywhere but have limited water is far easier to deal with than needing a tank to breath and having some water.
Don't forget solar wind...
That is not only free Hidrogen, it helps to protect the atmosphere.
I've seen this one about Venus before. It was worth watching again. I am now subscribed. Thank you.
This was a fantastic interview!
Thanks, I'm glad you enjoyed it.
I seem to recall there being some expression of zeitgeist in the scientific community in the early 90's that searching for life would NOT be a priority of NASA. Then that changed. Was it a generational thing?
As much as I prefer Mars to Venus as a planet to settle on, I do find Venusian cloud islands fairly appealing
Perhaps one day, Venus' dense atmosphere can be mass mined for gases that Mars needs to make it habitable?
I like
Just put a giant straw between both planets
I wish Paul showed us some slides while talking. I know it's a podcast, but still, it would have been very interesting watching a whole seminar on Venus. But yes, I also think Venus is hugely underestimated while it's super interesting. Also, it could be easier to colonize (on a floating habitat, not on the surface) since it's closer and has more transfer windows to Earth which is important if you want to send a lot of stuff there. Also, it has more Sun. Thank you, Fraser, for this interview.
I think we should work on a long term robotic mission to venus. The first piece would be giant baloon, a floating base, high enough in the atmosphere to be well above the hottest atmosphere.
That could run missions, or it could act as a base for further roboti. exploration.
A later mission could even be manned if the base stayed at the right height in the atmosphere.
I think the balloon idea is terrific. Design a hardened instrument cluster that could be lowered by cable down to the surface, perhaps receiving coolant through the tether lines connecting it to the balloon, which could survive for a number of hours to take readings and collect samples from the surface, before being retracted back up out of the hellish surface conditions, to deliver its samples back to the balloon "mother ship" overhead in the "earthlike" temperature zone of the atmosphere... at some point those samples could be robotically transferred to a rocket to launch them out of Venus's atmosphere into orbit, where they could then rocket back to Earth for analysis, or be captured by an Earth return vessel designed to transport them back to Earth. A mission capable of lowering an instrument sled down to the inhospitable surface could return massive amounts of useful data and measurements as well as samples.
YES. It is all about Venus. I was hooked after I learned of hypothetical floating structures. It has so much potential for so many things including colonization. Mars is so dead and pointless by comparison.
Well thanks... now I'm on the "obsessed with Venus" camp.
This was a great podcast and I appreciate the thoughts on Venus vs. Mars. This is exciting !
Visit EVERYTHING! Learn, explore, exploit (to the extent it doesn't harm the first two goals). We'll never do enough to make me happy!
Excellent interview/QnA. Thanks! Rising temperatures on earth speak simply and increasingly loudly to me that USA's further procrastination on funding the exploration/study of Venus will be done at Earth's peril.
At my part of this planet, the temperature hasn't raised in the 8 decades I've lived here. Summer, fall, winter, spring pretty much stay in the same range they always have.
Don't swallow everything people try to feed you.
If your only salvation is submitting to authority, the threat is always fake.
For real this Guys a sheep . Earth can absorb like 6-7 times the Carbon currently here . Plants already can from our past . Sun cycles , glaciers growing , our place in the galaxy orbit , earth changing forest to desert before we exist and back die to our 20k earth wobble . Lots of money in tricking you
That being said agreed on checking out Venus . We need a helicopter in those clouds snapping photos of the surface
I have been saved. I see the light. And I'm enthusiastic about Venus. Damn... This guy is effective.🤔😁
The Copper age started almost simultaneously everywhere around 1500 BCE. Copper is strongly related to sulfur. Venus' atmosphere contains a lot of sulfur. Like the biblical brimstones raining from the sky, the copper came from the sky, too. Auroral Precipitation, i.e. an atmospheric alloying process.
Yeah, Venus is very interesting, especially when you know about the works of Immanuel Velikovsky and maybe some other things... I got some brimstones, too... Rather rock solid proof, I would say.
Venus could never be stood on by a human, It is so hostile that standing would require so much that you wouldn't really be doing that at all. Picture standing a km deep in the sea, but your not in water, it's not air, more like a goo that's twice as hot as broil in your oven. That's a hard sell.
The way your head creates a tangent with the shelf drives me crazy
Needs more attention
This was a great interview. Thanks to both of you!
Ever since the 3 stooges went there, I found it fascinating.
I used to be obsessed with Venus. But now I'm obsessed with building planets out of raw materials extracted from other planets. Doing it that way would allow you to control the exact composition, which would allow you to control geologic and weather activity. I must be sounding like a supervillain right now.
Not exactly planets, but rotating worlds with an inner surface area of New Jersey. We get the materials to build these artificial worlds from the Moon, asteroids, and so on.
@Felix Qaasim The energy available on earth is a pittance. We would get the energy from the sun using a Dyson swarm.
@Felix Qaasim Do you recall which episode that is? I would expect that we can simply extract material from Mercury to build solar panels and use the sun's own energy to power everything.
Excellent- very good choice for an interview.
Good to have interesting friends!
@7:30 For Gods sake speak a little bit slower if you want to be understood.
What is the meaning of the "the only one we will ever visit"? Are you saying that humans will visit Venus but not Mars?
Venus is far more interesting than Mars. Venus was the first planet I aimed my first telescope at back in 2001. I will admit Jupiter was more jarring because I immediately saw four moons. I never looked at Saturn. I should have. Being able to see the rings would have been awesome, but Venus still holds a special place in my heart.
What are the night time temperatures on Venus? What about the poles? I would assume that because of the heavy atmosphere, the temperatures are pretty even, IE: very little temperature difference. Will there be some probes that can check out these new places on the surface? How about remotely measuring the temparatures
Its amazing to think that 40 yesrs ago we never knew whether exoplanets even existed
So awesome! Thank you ✨ Piqued my imagination now!
The THIRD option for the formation of Venus is that it's very young, perhaps a mass ejection from Saturn at a time when Saturn was transitioning from a Brown Dwarf star into the gas giant that it is now.
That could easily explain why it's so hot. It would explain why it had water, as Saturn has copious amounts of water that would have been liquid in its Brown Dwarf stage, though that water would be out-gassed very quickly.
It likely is simply too young to have developed any life. And it's core may settle into a magnetic iron core that generates a stable magnetic field.
But, unlike Earth that was capable of retaining its water, I don't see that there is any way for Venus to have any water capture. The water it had is gone and it's not coming back...
loving that venus content. I was always more interested in it than mars tbf
I would be interested in Dr Byrnes opinion on’ If Venus had had a Earth like moon it would have been a mor earth like planet’
BTW Great to see a fellow Irishman doing such a great job in planetary science.
The difference in rotation has always struck me as a crucial factor to be considered. Can't help but wonder if the Thera collision gifted yet another key benefit besides the moon and perhaps plate tectonics.
Great interview guys. Another reason for the recent interest in Venus has to be the greenhouse effect. As Earth gets warmer, will we end up like Venus?
Regarding volcano heights: The reason the tall volcanos are on mars is because its gravity is 3/8g. Note that Mons Olympus is 8/3 times taller than Everest. This is because: it is the maximum weight continental crust can support before it deforms and sinks.
I am so glad people are taking Venus seriously again as a destination for mankind. In some part I blame this lack of interest in the relative US success with Mars missions and the relative early USSR success with Venus missions. I have always been. A supporter of seeding Venus with bacterial life forms from Earth to return it to a closer analogue and also in the meantime using floating platforms in the atmosphere as a home to human outposts. I would still rather focus efforts on Venus colonisation than Mars and would note that Starship is just as suitable for Venus exploration as Mars.
0.9g nearby would be an absolute blessing for any kind of manned presence, until the return. Automated science missions would be hugely justifiable, it seems, EXCEPT that committing funds in any major new direction is likely to tighten the purse-strings all round.
4:31 when saying earth has pretty much been habitable all its existence you mean after its completion in forming because it always had water from start of creation?
Excellent interview thank you
" oh my god that's literally a whole other interview"
Yes please
I'm not obsessed with it but have been #teamVenus for some years now. Forget settling Mars and let's build floating cities above Venus!