@@maryellencook9528 Actually it was purely due to his mate being murdered by Duras, the other stuff didn't really 'count', but obviously 'encouraged' Worf to do the Klingon thing. The killing didn't even happen on Federation territory, so I can't see how they'd have any jurisdiction to begin with.
Worf killing Duras was ruled by the Klingons to be a justified act of revenge, and therefore not murder. Picard, since Worf killed Duras on a Klingon ship, told Worf he would like to have prosecuted Worf for murder, but could not since the Klingons ruled it wasn't murder and the killing occurred in Klingon territory. Had Worf not avenged himself upon Duras, they would have had to arrest Duras for Kheylarr's murder, committed by Duras, on a Federation vessel. Kheylarr also was a Federation citizen and agent, making Duras' killing her a violation of treaty.
Also didn't Worf take his combadge off and throw it on the table? A well established act of saying "I'm not a member of Starfleet right now, I can't be held accountabe." 😊
@@mxplixicIf taking his badge off made Worf not a Starfleet officer then Picard would not have allowed him to put it back on. He took the badge off so they wouldn’t have been able to track him. That’s a violation of regulations if Worf left the ship without permission.
so what is worse, Worf killing Duras or Picard letting an entire race die to be loyal to the Prime Directive? They would have died if Worf's brother had not saved them...
How is M'Benga not on this list for the whole Dak'Rah episode? I mean that was as seriously dark as Pale Moonlight, sandwiched between a cartoon crossover and a space musical.
- Janeway could not have been convicted of murder because there was no legal precedent for whether separating a fused being like Tuvix was murder or not. - Armus's punishment was effectively eternal damnation, confinement to a self-created hell. You don't get worse than that. - Worf acted completely within Klingon law and tradition.
@@scottpoerschke8807 But there was no precedent. Starfleet might have made a law saying that fused beings' rights had to be respected from then on... but that law did not exist when Janeway spilt Tuvix. It was like owning slaves. Until 1865, it was perfectly legal. Once the law was passed banning slavery, it became a crime. But they didn't punish people who had owned slaves previously.
@@scottpoerschke8807 he didn't die he returned to his original form of two separate living beings. What would she be charged with assuring her officers were returned in that state she received them in. His whole existence was at the cost of two other lives had they attempted to separate them and clone him and failed she would have actually killed three people by your accounts. You can't tell me you believe Tuvix would have fit in with Tuvok's family after they returned or that return was assured given how both men were instrumental to it in their original forms. What happened to Tuvix wasn't murder while unfortunate it was simply returning things to there natural state.
I know it'd ruin the whole "this is why 7 became vengeful" thing, and I know they don't tend to interfere but I'm really quite shocked that Q Jr would let Icheb get offed like that.
Word was a loyal Federation Officer. He wasn't just exercising The Right of Vengeance. By appearing in uniform but without his combadge he was also delivering a message from the Federation. One that was understood perfectly by The Klingon Empire.
You could have called this list: "10 characters from Star Trek who commit murder and get away with it from Deep Space Nine" and fit the spots comfortably. Actually, let's: -Garak obviously -Sisko by association and also that time he poisoned a planet -Jadzia Dax against the albino -Kira against Cardassian civilians -Odo letting innocent men go to their death rather than investigating further for the truth -Worf again in DS9 specific episodes, including trying to kill his own brother -Quark a few times over, but I'd say most importantly when he puts a group of arms dealers and their political opponents in a room together to kill each other and then just runs away -Chief O'Brien talking about his war stories fighting against "the Cardies" -Julian is a bit tricky, but he was willing to kill Sloan to get Odo's cure and forces Sloan into suicide, but that feels like a stretch -Martok uhhhh do I even have to explain more Klingon lore obviously Martok -Kai Winn getting her followers to plant a bomb in her first episode -Dukat for obvious reasons but I'm choosing my favorite, which is when he tries to get his whole cult to willingly take cyanide while he takes a placebo. He tries to Jonestown them! -Legate Damar that time he shoots his boss' daughter in the back because the plot told him to
Dukat also attempted to kill the woman who bore his illegitimate child. Again... shades of JONESTOWN! Then again, there's Kai-Winn killing Solbor by stabbing him in the back, but that's another matter completely.
You forgot Major Kira straight up murdering the Bajoran collaborator during the occupation. Odo couldn't bring himself to arrest her after she confessed.
Bashir arguably murdered Mirror Universe Odo, I mean, self defense, but did his weapon have a stun setting? Did have time to switch to it? Alternate time line Odo erased the Children of Time Colony from existence. And there's the Intendant Kira, who sauntered off to commit more evil because the MU is a joke.
The thing is, Data *didn't* lie to Riker when he said "perhaps something occurred during transport." Something _did_ occur when Data was being beamed over. Data just left out the fact that that "something" was him pulling the trigger.
They missed a golden opportunity to not have a follow up episode with the equinox crew I wouldn't have minded an episode dealing with how they are adjusting to life on a new ship after what they've done and how the voyager crew adjusted to having them there.
Yep, that's kind of the thing there. With them you also have the side of things where pretty much the entire thing was their captain doing it, the view that it was everything to get the rest of them home. Even in the end, the aliens that were being killed weren't entirely shown to be more sapient, and felt more like something attacking something that was a threat to them there, which makes things even more of an argument...and one that could lead to a lot more issues with Starfleet than most of Janeways other stunts. The aliens seemed to feel a lot like a beehive that they'd stumbled onto going on an all out swarm attack over the course of it
Heavily gray area. They hadn't meant to make a clone just clone the tissue needed, the clone's rapid aging technically meant he had a terminal illness with a short time remaining, and the clone volunteered for the procedure in order to save Trip's life. IIRC Archer was going to let him leave in the end and he chose to stay.
I hate to say it, but a bit of a correction needs to be made with the Q entry. Dr. Crusher hadn't boarded the Enterprise yet at that point. She and Wesley along with Commander Riker and Lieutenant La Forge were waiting to be picked up at Farpoint Station. While the scene was filmed, I doubt it would have any effect on canon but a deleted scene from the Anti-Time past indicated that Selar may have been the physician on duty when Lieutenant Torres was frozen by Q.
Janeway didn't commit murder, that's technically triage. Medical providers, when faced with the decision of saving lives, can morally choose to allow a person to die they could have saved, if it means saving more people, or more people with a greater chance of survival..
Not even close. Tuvok and Neelix were gone. Tuvix was perfectly healthy, there was no risk to his life at all. Tirage is about balancing risk, we have 3 people at risk of dying, if I do this I save 2, if I do this I save 1. Triage isn't a thing when one of the beings in question is perfectly healthy. It was murder, plain and simple.
But you can't kill someone because their organs would let you save two others. I agree it's probably not legally murder, but let's not pretend she didn't kill the guy.
Every time I see Voyager go over the Golden Gate Bridge I kind of get a little choked up I remember where I was when that aired on TV it was huge. One of the most important and wonderful Star Trek moments of my 38 years of here being here
If we argue Data is a person, can we not say Lore is a person? At the end of Descent, Data deactivates Lore and disassembles him, acting like his judge, jury and executioner. That could be seen as murder.
Starfleet we're never going to pursue charges against any iteration of Janeway for the near destruction of the Borg collective, because they had already directly ordered Picard to do exactly that after he failed to do so when returning Hugh. Perhaps this even became a standard directive to all Captains
Worf killing Duras was fully legal under Klingon law, which had jurisdiction as the venue was a Klingon vessel. Frankly, I'd question it being murder even under human law, for most cultures in most of history at least- two equal combatants, both facing one another, equivalently armed, intentionally fighting. I'm fine with it.
Worf is a disgraced Klingon at the time. The crew of Duras let Worf come aboard and challenge Duras. The Right of Vengeance must be a big thing that is to be respected among Klingons.
As a defense attorney, I feel pretty confident in getting a Not Guilty for Data's "murder." In fact, it's probably thrown out before trial. "Your Honor, the alleged victim is alive and able to testify. I'm pretty sure that means there has been no murder." Attempted murder on the other hand, I'd need to plea bargain unless I thought I could convince it was a "defense of others" situation and I'm not sure I could. For Worf-Klingon law applies. Just as in Riker's murder trial where the standard was "guilty until proven innocent," you use the standard of the jurisdiction you're in. And, the Klingons' standard is "definitely not murder."
I always understood taking off the combadge as being removing enough uniform to count in an expedient manner without being indecent: cf 'Inter arma einem silent leges' and 'Homefront/Paradise Lost', so, sorry Sean, Worf was technically 'out' of uniform according to regs.
As always, thank you so very much Seán and Friends for the videos! That said, WTF?! I saw this video listed on TH-cam, and I thought "WTF? How did I miss that?" I've been subscribed (for many happy years), and yours are never some of the videos I'll skip, but I seemed to have missed this one in my notifications; so I went back and checked. I wasn't in my notifications. I checked, I am (still) subscribed and my bell is on. So... WTF??? (How do you mind-meld TH-cam for answers?)
He's a gifted tailor, gardener, and tinkerer. That he's been in such proximity to so many regrettable deaths is just the bad luck of living near the nexus of such events. I respect such a multitalented individual.
Things like Voy: Equinox are one of many reasons we NEEDED a "what happened after they got home?" period, criminal charges brought against certain crew members, previous charges dropped for Maquis, and, Janeway having to answer to and justify the things she had done in the course of getting the ship home, because all we got post-Voyager, Admiral Janeway wishing Picard well on a trip to Romulus in Nemesis, and that was it, Voyager's era ended, and nothing again until the Picard series...
I thought the Marquis were all granted pardons at the start of the Dominion War -- even if the only ones left were those on Voyager and in Federation prisons. The Dominion wiped out the rest.
The remaining crew of Equinox only "got away" with murder in the sense that their punishment defies normal conceptions of justice commensurate with murder. However, the traditions of naval law grant Captain Janeway generous leeway to determine guilt and innocence for crimes and award punishments as the senior available convening authority. Complete removal of rank is a hefty punishment for most military crimes, and while the crew of Voyager certainly made every effort to avoid death and to return to Earth, at the time there was no guarantee that the crew would ever return home, and service aboard Voyager was its own death sentence. Regardless, 3 capable Starfleet crew that do not present a clear and present danger to the crew of Voyager would be an absolute waste in the brig. They did not "get away" with murder, but they certainly got off light.
I might have to watch the episode again, but I feel like the shooting of Kivas Fajo would have been somewhat justifiable as one could believe he would continue to murder people.
Worf is difficult. Both kills happened on klingon "soil" (assuming that the klingon rooms on DS9 got embassy status) Both were honorable challenges under klingon justice.
Ignore Riker's killings. I mean he got away with it in "A Matter of Perspective". Probably Riker was Section 31 the whole time and those were his orders. That one chick he vaporized in season 3, because no one else would get off their butt and tackle her. Oh, and two clones that were a threat to his and Pulaski's egos.
The Equinox Crew wasn't getting away with murder, it was the only way they could justify keeping a dozen people around and consuming resources. If they couldn't contribute, it's hard to justify the drag they have on the ship
What Data did was in the defense of others the collector had already killed someone and had threatened to do so again. Data can’t compel him to face Justice, he can’t even touch him due to the belt. Also killing your kidnapper counts at self defense.
Sisko is definitely, at the very least, am accessory before the fact to murder and guilty of conspiracy to commit murder. As well as, probably, murder for hire. Did he pay Garak in any form?
If you're counting the frozen guy who was revived, then Tasha Yar and Spock both have to go on the list. Spock for 'killing' Kirk during the pon farr and Yar for her duel on the African planet.
What about the subspace aliens from ST:TNG "Schisms"? Didnt they turn a crew member's blood into some kind of polymer & killed him? They just jetted off into the unknown.
Saveing the lives of two friends vs one hybrid that was not of intentional creation. It's not as if she was forceing two friends to become one new person. IDIC but TNOTM,OW,TNOTF, OTO.
In light of what Janeway's career is like post-return that we've seen...my loose headcanon logic goes along the lines of this. Starfleet Command after the lengthy review of everything she did in the Delta Quadrant could have reasonably brought her up on charges in several or more cases and imposed punishment BUT they couldn't cause Voyager's return wasn't just a historic moment because the journey it made, but also because of the timing of it's return. It came back to a Starfleet that was only just coming out of the Dominion war and had a severe bloody nose, Voyager with its return instantly became a symbol of hope, especially toward Starfleet's spirit of exploration that had to be side-lined during the war. The result of this was that Starfleet Command literally couldn't touch Janeway, despite her having a list of conduct issues rivaling Kirk. So, based on Prodigy, they let her have her science project(s) and more or less kept her busy...with her punishment being they were probably never going to promote her past admiral, his could be wrong. But based on her interactions with command I got the low-key vibe she isn't "exactly" part of the in-group of the upper echelons of Starfleet Command.
Duras accepted the duel & chose to participate. According to Klingon law Worf had no rights and wasn't a citizen of the Empire. Duras was under no obligation to accept the challenge. Him choosing to participate was the only honorable thing he did in the series. This was not a murder.
VOLARIS! How does Volaris in Star Trek VI not end up on this list? Nothing irks me more than that line about Volaris getting let off because you don't punish someone for "having feelings!" Um, she MURDERED two crewmen and was prepared to do more murder! But it's okay, because everyone has feelings I guess 🤷♂
i know i hate the tuvix debate surly not separating them would be like murdering 2 people it was an accident neither wanted it to happen and would want be themselves again so restoring them is not murder no one died the 2 that become 1 become 2 again its a dumb argument
In Enterprise, Sim was very much murdered in the attempt to save Tripp's life. Although Sim's purpose was to preserve Tripp life, it is still murder and not only the doctor and Archer got away with it, but it was unspoken ever
I honestly thought that at the last moment that Worf would had held his hand on Duras at the last possible second, according to TNG writers’ rep, and the fact that they had him continue to come down with his killing blow on Duras felt so cathartic to me as a viewer because Worf finally did what we all wanted him to do as fans. “Kill that Klingon bastard” is what I screamed whenever he dropped that Bath’leth on Duras and was like “yes!” Hang the fracking rules” You didn’t kill him whenever the truth came out and you took dishonor for his ass. It took him killing Kay’lar, his mate whenever she proved that Worf’s father was innocent, in cold blood.
Kirk always had some self defence excuse, but he kept coming across Starfleet officers who had gone rogue and violated the Prime Directive. Can’t think of examples, but I’m sure they’re there.
You missed the biggest one of all! M"Benga! Not only did he kill an unarmed Klingon with a knife! A knife that he then used to frame his victim not only in order to claim self-defense but to frame him for the other killings M"Benga committed. He also made Nurse Chapel an accessory after the fact. Strange New Worlds left no wiggle room here. Why did you not cover this one?
It left a ton of wriggle room. That's the point. As likely as it may be that M'Benga murdered the Klingon, there is no proof. We cannot say for sure whether M'Benga attacked first or if it was self defense. And that is deliberate.
He told the War Criminal to leave him be. The dude didn’t listen and thus committed suicide. The war wasn’t over until then, maybe. Listening is a wise skill. I hope Pike was a good listener.
@@ChrisEllorris exactly the opposite. Yes they showed the killing in shadow only. But the knife was M’Bengas he literally held it earlier in the scene. Even in dialogue during the fight the Klingon was appealing to M’Benga. The Klingon was sincere in his effort to reform. So the writers did not even give the excuse that the Klingon was faking it. Also M’Benga deliberately let everyone think the knife was the Klingons thus framing him for attacking M’Benga with a knife therefore ‘justifying’ self defense. Also framing the Klingon for the killings of the Klingon officers that M’Benga also did. This was a straight up revenge killing. The only justification for the audience was because the Klingon was a ‘bad’ guy. This is the most disturbing part so many comments have been that the Klingon deserved what happened to him. That killing somebody is ok as long as they deserved it!? Not to mention the real world reason for this is only because the actor playing M’Benga is an expert fighter. So they took gentle caring loving parent doctor character and made him into to a drug fueled ninja super assassin? Why because they couldn’t think of anything better? It is just so sad and bad that they did this.
It didn't even find ten valid cases. Both the Data and Worf entries lack context. Not to mention how overblown the whole Tuvix situation is in the first place. How would you be guilty of murder when returning two people who you accepted full responsibility for their welfare to their lives. Tuvix isn't dead he was returned to his original state as two separate living beings.
Icheb's murder should never have been written in the first place. They sacrificed someone who was still practically a child in a failed attempt to add more moral complexity to Seven. And I'm pretty sure, had they inserted practically any of Voyager's old crew into the role of finding Icheb like that, they'd have gone scorched Earth mode on the people responsible, the second they got the chance
I think Georgiou needs to be judged within the context of her culture. Virtually all Terrans thought weakness and mercy were dangerous. And the non-Tarrans, when they overthrown the Empire, they were also killers. Georgiou in the Prime Universe was a valuable member of the Discovery crew. She helped destroy the Section 31 Control Computer. I believe the crew not holding her in contempt is more than reasonable.
What about those poor flowers on Edo (Season 1 Episode "Justice") that Wesley trampled over teaching the local youth Gridiron Football? Where is their, well, Justice? :D
Picard explained it in the episode. They don't have the ability to discipline him or the jurisdiction to judge him. So better to warp away before he gets angry and eliminates the crew. Captain Picard's first duty is to the safety of the crew unless there is a Starfleet order to sacrifice the crew in war or to protect a greater number of lives.
It was not murder, it was retribution in a culture that considers retribution to be a legal reason. Just as we are justified defending ourselves against deadly force WITH deadly force, on a Klingon ship, paying with deadly force the just due for a person wielding deadly force against a mate, is the same moral standard. Duras' assistant said "he claims the right.". In case you wonder, there is living proof that she WAS his mate.
It's interesting that thing with Worf and Duras, it highlights the differences between the two cultures and the politics involved rather well. I'll bet the higher ups at Starfleet wanted to prosecute but at the same time did not want to risk a diplomatic incident with the Klingons, causing them to drop it. As for Gowron, well... That's different as he was ordered to do that by Sisko, he was simply carrying out his duty. You could probably argue the same for the Equinox crew members, Ransom was ultimately accountable as that's how military hierarchies work.
I kind of felt that Kirk ordering the destruction of Nero's ship in the 2009 movie had war crime written all over it. The ship was gonna blow up anyway!
And Wolf's ultimate revenge against Duras would have come in the form of one of the Duras sister's, he could have taken her as his mate, even though it wouldn't have lasted long, then seized the House of Duras along with its land and ships before merging it with the House of Mogh
Duras was not a murder, it was Klingon law
Thank you for saying it.
correct sir
Absolutely! It was also a matter of Honor, considering what the House of Duras did to Worf's birth family with regards to the Kittemer incident.
Came here to say the same. Janeway otoh, absolutely a murderer
@@maryellencook9528 Actually it was purely due to his mate being murdered by Duras, the other stuff didn't really 'count', but obviously 'encouraged' Worf to do the Klingon thing. The killing didn't even happen on Federation territory, so I can't see how they'd have any jurisdiction to begin with.
Worf killing Duras was ruled by the Klingons to be a justified act of revenge, and therefore not murder. Picard, since Worf killed Duras on a Klingon ship, told Worf he would like to have prosecuted Worf for murder, but could not since the Klingons ruled it wasn't murder and the killing occurred in Klingon territory. Had Worf not avenged himself upon Duras, they would have had to arrest Duras for Kheylarr's murder, committed by Duras, on a Federation vessel. Kheylarr also was a Federation citizen and agent, making Duras' killing her a violation of treaty.
So another way of looking at this is if Worf hadn't killed Duras it may have been possible another Federation, Klingon war could have happend.
Duras could have declined the duel and went to live in dishonor, but he chose to fight.
Also didn't Worf take his combadge off and throw it on the table? A well established act of saying "I'm not a member of Starfleet right now, I can't be held accountabe." 😊
@@mxplixicIf taking his badge off made Worf not a Starfleet officer then Picard would not have allowed him to put it back on. He took the badge off so they wouldn’t have been able to track him. That’s a violation of regulations if Worf left the ship without permission.
so what is worse, Worf killing Duras or Picard letting an entire race die to be loyal to the Prime Directive? They would have died if Worf's brother had not saved them...
How is M'Benga not on this list for the whole Dak'Rah episode? I mean that was as seriously dark as Pale Moonlight, sandwiched between a cartoon crossover and a space musical.
We don't really know what happened with that fight, Pike himself said there would be an inquiry.
@@--Animal-- Are you implying that Dak'rah didn't die?
Even though the war was over by that point, I would say "Inter arma enim silent leges."
Number 1 wasn't murder. Duras accepted Worf's challenge to a duel.
Yes, he could have declined the duel and tried to live with his dishonor; but he chose to fight.
- Janeway could not have been convicted of murder because there was no legal precedent for whether separating a fused being like Tuvix was murder or not.
- Armus's punishment was effectively eternal damnation, confinement to a self-created hell. You don't get worse than that.
- Worf acted completely within Klingon law and tradition.
Janeway should have been because Tuvix did not want to die
But in reality the transporter could have beaned Nelix, Tuvok, and Tuvix - so Tuvix did not have to die
@@scottpoerschke8807 But there was no precedent. Starfleet might have made a law saying that fused beings' rights had to be respected from then on... but that law did not exist when Janeway spilt Tuvix.
It was like owning slaves. Until 1865, it was perfectly legal. Once the law was passed banning slavery, it became a crime. But they didn't punish people who had owned slaves previously.
@oddish4352 "To seek out new life and... something, something Dark Side." 🤔
@@scottpoerschke8807 he didn't die he returned to his original form of two separate living beings. What would she be charged with assuring her officers were returned in that state she received them in. His whole existence was at the cost of two other lives had they attempted to separate them and clone him and failed she would have actually killed three people by your accounts. You can't tell me you believe Tuvix would have fit in with Tuvok's family after they returned or that return was assured given how both men were instrumental to it in their original forms. What happened to Tuvix wasn't murder while unfortunate it was simply returning things to there natural state.
mortal Q: ugh ... what must i do to convince you people??
Worf: Die
Oh, Worf, eat any good books lately? XD
I know it'd ruin the whole "this is why 7 became vengeful" thing, and I know they don't tend to interfere but I'm really quite shocked that Q Jr would let Icheb get offed like that.
Word was a loyal Federation Officer.
He wasn't just exercising The Right of Vengeance. By appearing in uniform but without his combadge he was also delivering a message from the Federation. One that was understood perfectly by The Klingon Empire.
I’ll defend Worf to my last breath on the Duras “murder.”
You could have called this list: "10 characters from Star Trek who commit murder and get away with it from Deep Space Nine" and fit the spots comfortably.
Actually, let's:
-Garak obviously
-Sisko by association and also that time he poisoned a planet
-Jadzia Dax against the albino
-Kira against Cardassian civilians
-Odo letting innocent men go to their death rather than investigating further for the truth
-Worf again in DS9 specific episodes, including trying to kill his own brother
-Quark a few times over, but I'd say most importantly when he puts a group of arms dealers and their political opponents in a room together to kill each other and then just runs away
-Chief O'Brien talking about his war stories fighting against "the Cardies"
-Julian is a bit tricky, but he was willing to kill Sloan to get Odo's cure and forces Sloan into suicide, but that feels like a stretch
-Martok uhhhh do I even have to explain more Klingon lore obviously Martok
-Kai Winn getting her followers to plant a bomb in her first episode
-Dukat for obvious reasons but I'm choosing my favorite, which is when he tries to get his whole cult to willingly take cyanide while he takes a placebo. He tries to Jonestown them!
-Legate Damar that time he shoots his boss' daughter in the back because the plot told him to
Good point. I wouldn't be surprised if you could go even further and made it "10 times we talked about Garak".
Dukat also attempted to kill the woman who bore his illegitimate child. Again... shades of JONESTOWN!
Then again, there's Kai-Winn killing Solbor by stabbing him in the back, but that's another matter completely.
-Jadzia Dax against the albino (by association) Kang is the one that killed them
You forgot Major Kira straight up murdering the Bajoran collaborator during the occupation. Odo couldn't bring himself to arrest her after she confessed.
Bashir arguably murdered Mirror Universe Odo, I mean, self defense, but did his weapon have a stun setting? Did have time to switch to it?
Alternate time line Odo erased the Children of Time Colony from existence.
And there's the Intendant Kira, who sauntered off to commit more evil because the MU is a joke.
I still say Seven getting revenge for Icheb was the best of a bad situation. Do we really need to see what the hell Janeway would have done?
The thing is, Data *didn't* lie to Riker when he said "perhaps something occurred during transport." Something _did_ occur when Data was being beamed over.
Data just left out the fact that that "something" was him pulling the trigger.
They missed a golden opportunity to not have a follow up episode with the equinox crew I wouldn't have minded an episode dealing with how they are adjusting to life on a new ship after what they've done and how the voyager crew adjusted to having them there.
Yep, that's kind of the thing there.
With them you also have the side of things where pretty much the entire thing was their captain doing it, the view that it was everything to get the rest of them home.
Even in the end, the aliens that were being killed weren't entirely shown to be more sapient, and felt more like something attacking something that was a threat to them there, which makes things even more of an argument...and one that could lead to a lot more issues with Starfleet than most of Janeways other stunts.
The aliens seemed to feel a lot like a beehive that they'd stumbled onto going on an all out swarm attack over the course of it
"Missed a golden opportunity" is a good summary for basically everything in Voyager
Ok Sean wearing Seven's silver suit was not something I knew I needed.
How about when Captain Archer cloned trip to save, well, trip? he killed the clone...
Heavily gray area. They hadn't meant to make a clone just clone the tissue needed, the clone's rapid aging technically meant he had a terminal illness with a short time remaining, and the clone volunteered for the procedure in order to save Trip's life. IIRC Archer was going to let him leave in the end and he chose to stay.
You could make an eight hour video on Garak alone. The problem is not knowing which are a lie and which are true
They're all true, especially the lies.
@@DavidStowers-o7kGarak has more kills than worf.😅
I hate to say it, but a bit of a correction needs to be made with the Q entry.
Dr. Crusher hadn't boarded the Enterprise yet at that point. She and Wesley along with Commander Riker and Lieutenant La Forge were waiting to be picked up at Farpoint Station. While the scene was filmed, I doubt it would have any effect on canon but a deleted scene from the Anti-Time past indicated that Selar may have been the physician on duty when Lieutenant Torres was frozen by Q.
Janeway didn't commit murder, that's technically triage. Medical providers, when faced with the decision of saving lives, can morally choose to allow a person to die they could have saved, if it means saving more people, or more people with a greater chance of survival..
Not even close. Tuvok and Neelix were gone. Tuvix was perfectly healthy, there was no risk to his life at all. Tirage is about balancing risk, we have 3 people at risk of dying, if I do this I save 2, if I do this I save 1. Triage isn't a thing when one of the beings in question is perfectly healthy. It was murder, plain and simple.
Not triage at all. She killed summertime who existed to create two pistols who did not. Clear murder
But you can't kill someone because their organs would let you save two others.
I agree it's probably not legally murder, but let's not pretend she didn't kill the guy.
@@keiyakins it would be legally murder in the real world
Isn't it kinda more of a trolley problem?
Every time I see Voyager go over the Golden Gate Bridge I kind of get a little choked up I remember where I was when that aired on TV it was huge. One of the most important and wonderful Star Trek moments of my 38 years of here being here
If we argue Data is a person, can we not say Lore is a person? At the end of Descent, Data deactivates Lore and disassembles him, acting like his judge, jury and executioner. That could be seen as murder.
Starfleet we're never going to pursue charges against any iteration of Janeway for the near destruction of the Borg collective, because they had already directly ordered Picard to do exactly that after he failed to do so when returning Hugh. Perhaps this even became a standard directive to all Captains
Worf killing Duras was fully legal under Klingon law, which had jurisdiction as the venue was a Klingon vessel. Frankly, I'd question it being murder even under human law, for most cultures in most of history at least- two equal combatants, both facing one another, equivalently armed, intentionally fighting. I'm fine with it.
Worf is a disgraced Klingon at the time. The crew of Duras let Worf come aboard and challenge Duras. The Right of Vengeance must be a big thing that is to be respected among Klingons.
As a defense attorney, I feel pretty confident in getting a Not Guilty for Data's "murder." In fact, it's probably thrown out before trial. "Your Honor, the alleged victim is alive and able to testify. I'm pretty sure that means there has been no murder." Attempted murder on the other hand, I'd need to plea bargain unless I thought I could convince it was a "defense of others" situation and I'm not sure I could. For Worf-Klingon law applies. Just as in Riker's murder trial where the standard was "guilty until proven innocent," you use the standard of the jurisdiction you're in. And, the Klingons' standard is "definitely not murder."
13:00 Dr. Crusher must have been beyond good considering she was not on the ship yet. 😁😁😁
That oil slick creature from TNG S1E23 "Skin of Evil" that killed Tasha always reminded me a bit of the creature from "The Raft" in Creepshow 2
I always understood taking off the combadge as being removing enough uniform to count in an expedient manner without being indecent: cf 'Inter arma einem silent leges' and 'Homefront/Paradise Lost', so, sorry Sean, Worf was technically 'out' of uniform according to regs.
7:35 Marina Sirtis clone!! Love how you showed the easter egg where Denise Crosby waved goodbye on camera.
Yeahhhh glossing over Georgiou's countless crimes because she was "badass" always felt gross
As always, thank you so very much Seán and Friends for the videos!
That said, WTF?! I saw this video listed on TH-cam, and I thought "WTF? How did I miss that?" I've been subscribed (for many happy years), and yours are never some of the videos I'll skip, but I seemed to have missed this one in my notifications; so I went back and checked. I wasn't in my notifications. I checked, I am (still) subscribed and my bell is on. So... WTF??? (How do you mind-meld TH-cam for answers?)
in the pale moon light is a perfect example that section 31 is needed in the federation, because at times the ends do justify the means
This could be "10 Times Garak Got Away With Murder"
Only 10?
Also, PROVE IT!
He's a gifted tailor, gardener, and tinkerer. That he's been in such proximity to so many regrettable deaths is just the bad luck of living near the nexus of such events. I respect such a multitalented individual.
@@KevinWebb And possibly a soldier but definitely not a spy
Things like Voy: Equinox are one of many reasons we NEEDED a "what happened after they got home?" period, criminal charges brought against certain crew members, previous charges dropped for Maquis, and, Janeway having to answer to and justify the things she had done in the course of getting the ship home, because all we got post-Voyager, Admiral Janeway wishing Picard well on a trip to Romulus in Nemesis, and that was it, Voyager's era ended, and nothing again until the Picard series...
I thought the Marquis were all granted pardons at the start of the Dominion War -- even if the only ones left were those on Voyager and in Federation prisons. The Dominion wiped out the rest.
The remaining crew of Equinox only "got away" with murder in the sense that their punishment defies normal conceptions of justice commensurate with murder. However, the traditions of naval law grant Captain Janeway generous leeway to determine guilt and innocence for crimes and award punishments as the senior available convening authority. Complete removal of rank is a hefty punishment for most military crimes, and while the crew of Voyager certainly made every effort to avoid death and to return to Earth, at the time there was no guarantee that the crew would ever return home, and service aboard Voyager was its own death sentence. Regardless, 3 capable Starfleet crew that do not present a clear and present danger to the crew of Voyager would be an absolute waste in the brig. They did not "get away" with murder, but they certainly got off light.
Armus technically didn´t get away with murder. He was quite literally sentenced to life-imprisonment by leaving him on the planet.
I might have to watch the episode again, but I feel like the shooting of Kivas Fajo would have been somewhat justifiable as one could believe he would continue to murder people.
I can recall one micheal Burhnam blowing a hole in a certain orion's brain...
Worf is difficult. Both kills happened on klingon "soil" (assuming that the klingon rooms on DS9 got embassy status) Both were honorable challenges under klingon justice.
Good list.
Ignore Riker's killings. I mean he got away with it in "A Matter of Perspective". Probably Riker was Section 31 the whole time and those were his orders. That one chick he vaporized in season 3, because no one else would get off their butt and tackle her. Oh, and two clones that were a threat to his and Pulaski's egos.
When it comes to Data killing Vigil... Well Artie should have just stayed at the Warehouse
“Holy sh*t! Janeway didn’t mess around.” 🤣
What about worf and his brother? He tried to kill him 1 time, then literally killed him when he had his memory wiped and replaced.
How about Picard and the Enterprise from the episode conundrum destroying a ship or would that be dismissed with the Amnesia the crew was given?
You can't get away with a murder that never happened.
The Equinox Crew wasn't getting away with murder, it was the only way they could justify keeping a dozen people around and consuming resources. If they couldn't contribute, it's hard to justify the drag they have on the ship
Characters who got away with murder and not a single 'tight fitting glove' in sight eh?
Worf got a bum rap for destroying that Klingon transport that dropped in during a battle. There. I said it.
What Data did was in the defense of others the collector had already killed someone and had threatened to do so again. Data can’t compel him to face Justice, he can’t even touch him due to the belt. Also killing your kidnapper counts at self defense.
Sisko is definitely, at the very least, am accessory before the fact to murder and guilty of conspiracy to commit murder. As well as, probably, murder for hire. Did he pay Garak in any form?
You let Data off pretty lightly. He murdered LORE three times!
I only remember Data turning Lore off and deleting him in Picard. When did Data kill him again?😅
@@hackman669 The very first time he met him, he beamed him into space to float forever until he presumably ran out of juice!
@@milou66 Brotherly love. Hehe 😁
If you're counting the frozen guy who was revived, then Tasha Yar and Spock both have to go on the list. Spock for 'killing' Kirk during the pon farr and Yar for her duel on the African planet.
What about the subspace aliens from ST:TNG "Schisms"? Didnt they turn a crew member's blood into some kind of polymer & killed him? They just jetted off into the unknown.
What could they do to the Solanae? They can only exist in subspace.
Saveing the lives of two friends vs one hybrid that was not of intentional creation. It's not as if she was forceing two friends to become one new person. IDIC but TNOTM,OW,TNOTF, OTO.
Yar ended up becoming a lawyer and the bane of Harvey Spector.
"...that means that is not illegal." -Richard Nixon
i forgot all about that episode Data attempted cold "blooded" murder. i think i might need to go rewatch it again
In light of what Janeway's career is like post-return that we've seen...my loose headcanon logic goes along the lines of this. Starfleet Command after the lengthy review of everything she did in the Delta Quadrant could have reasonably brought her up on charges in several or more cases and imposed punishment BUT they couldn't cause Voyager's return wasn't just a historic moment because the journey it made, but also because of the timing of it's return. It came back to a Starfleet that was only just coming out of the Dominion war and had a severe bloody nose, Voyager with its return instantly became a symbol of hope, especially toward Starfleet's spirit of exploration that had to be side-lined during the war. The result of this was that Starfleet Command literally couldn't touch Janeway, despite her having a list of conduct issues rivaling Kirk. So, based on Prodigy, they let her have her science project(s) and more or less kept her busy...with her punishment being they were probably never going to promote her past admiral, his could be wrong. But based on her interactions with command I got the low-key vibe she isn't "exactly" part of the in-group of the upper echelons of Starfleet Command.
I thought you said that the defense of others didn't count. Kill 1 to save 2?
Then why is Janeway on this list?
Duras accepted the duel & chose to participate. According to Klingon law Worf had no rights and wasn't a citizen of the Empire. Duras was under no obligation to accept the challenge. Him choosing to participate was the only honorable thing he did in the series. This was not a murder.
VOLARIS! How does Volaris in Star Trek VI not end up on this list? Nothing irks me more than that line about Volaris getting let off because you don't punish someone for "having feelings!" Um, she MURDERED two crewmen and was prepared to do more murder! But it's okay, because everyone has feelings I guess 🤷♂
I knew Tuvix would be on this list,the question was where on the list?
i know i hate the tuvix debate surly not separating them would be like murdering 2 people it was an accident neither wanted it to happen and would want be themselves again so restoring them is not murder no one died the 2 that become 1 become 2 again its a dumb argument
In Enterprise, Sim was very much murdered in the attempt to save Tripp's life. Although Sim's purpose was to preserve Tripp life, it is still murder and not only the doctor and Archer got away with it, but it was unspoken ever
What Garak said to Sisko at the end was right.
I honestly thought that at the last moment that Worf would had held his hand on Duras at the last possible second, according to TNG writers’ rep, and the fact that they had him continue to come down with his killing blow on Duras felt so cathartic to me as a viewer because Worf finally did what we all wanted him to do as fans. “Kill that Klingon bastard” is what I screamed whenever he dropped that Bath’leth on Duras and was like “yes!” Hang the fracking rules”
You didn’t kill him whenever the truth came out and you took dishonor for his ass. It took him killing Kay’lar, his mate whenever she proved that Worf’s father was innocent, in cold blood.
Riker killed his own clone without flinching.
Nice one😊
You got my "like" for this video at "cat-boots" 😆
Kirk always had some self defence excuse, but he kept coming across Starfleet officers who had gone rogue and violated the Prime Directive. Can’t think of examples, but I’m sure they’re there.
In "Bread and Circuses", I thought his killing of a gladiator was unnecessary,.
Garrak v torran is one of the turning points in cardassian politics and one of the more cold blooded murders in the series
You missed the biggest one of all! M"Benga! Not only did he kill an unarmed Klingon with a knife! A knife that he then used to frame his victim not only in order to claim self-defense but to frame him for the other killings M"Benga committed. He also made Nurse Chapel an accessory after the fact. Strange New Worlds left no wiggle room here. Why did you not cover this one?
...Did he though?
It left a ton of wriggle room. That's the point. As likely as it may be that M'Benga murdered the Klingon, there is no proof. We cannot say for sure whether M'Benga attacked first or if it was self defense. And that is deliberate.
He told the War Criminal to leave him be. The dude didn’t listen and thus committed suicide. The war wasn’t over until then, maybe. Listening is a wise skill. I hope Pike was a good listener.
They left just enough ambiguity in that episode that we can't be sure M'Benga killed him.
@@ChrisEllorris exactly the opposite. Yes they showed the killing in shadow only. But the knife was M’Bengas he literally held it earlier in the scene. Even in dialogue during the fight the Klingon was appealing to M’Benga. The Klingon was sincere in his effort to reform. So the writers did not even give the excuse that the Klingon was faking it. Also M’Benga deliberately let everyone think the knife was the Klingons thus framing him for attacking M’Benga with a knife therefore ‘justifying’ self defense. Also framing the Klingon for the killings of the Klingon officers that M’Benga also did. This was a straight up revenge killing. The only justification for the audience was because the Klingon was a ‘bad’ guy. This is the most disturbing part so many comments have been that the Klingon deserved what happened to him. That killing somebody is ok as long as they deserved it!? Not to mention the real world reason for this is only because the actor playing M’Benga is an expert fighter. So they took gentle caring loving parent doctor character and made him into to a drug fueled ninja super assassin? Why because they couldn’t think of anything better? It is just so sad and bad that they did this.
Then there was the time when Anakin killed everyone in that Tusken Raider camp. Wait...what are we talking about again?
Oh, this list seems like it could be a whole lot longer than ten!
It didn't even find ten valid cases. Both the Data and Worf entries lack context. Not to mention how overblown the whole Tuvix situation is in the first place. How would you be guilty of murder when returning two people who you accepted full responsibility for their welfare to their lives. Tuvix isn't dead he was returned to his original state as two separate living beings.
Icheb's murder should never have been written in the first place. They sacrificed someone who was still practically a child in a failed attempt to add more moral complexity to Seven. And I'm pretty sure, had they inserted practically any of Voyager's old crew into the role of finding Icheb like that, they'd have gone scorched Earth mode on the people responsible, the second they got the chance
If you kill someone without your conn badge, it doesn't count because you were off duty at the time?
I think Georgiou needs to be judged within the context of her culture. Virtually all Terrans thought weakness and mercy were dangerous. And the non-Tarrans, when they overthrown the Empire, they were also killers. Georgiou in the Prime Universe was a valuable member of the Discovery crew. She helped destroy the Section 31 Control Computer. I believe the crew not holding her in contempt is more than reasonable.
What about those poor flowers on Edo (Season 1 Episode "Justice") that Wesley trampled over teaching the local youth Gridiron Football? Where is their, well, Justice? :D
That would be manslaughter - not premeditated murder
You forgot about the ensign Worf literally *ate* in 'Genesis'.
All evidence pointed to Worf doing that.
What about Kevin Uxbridge from the TNG episode "The Survivors"? He murdered a whole species!
Picard explained it in the episode. They don't have the ability to discipline him or the jurisdiction to judge him. So better to warp away before he gets angry and eliminates the crew. Captain Picard's first duty is to the safety of the crew unless there is a Starfleet order to sacrifice the crew in war or to protect a greater number of lives.
@@trekon2023 which is how he got away with it!
Same as Q. They didn’t have the ability or jurisdiction to do anything to him.
In an Episode TNG Riker killed his clone... In an episode of DS9 Odo said "Murdering your clone is still murder" so ya missed 1
That was cold. Right on.😊
Conscience of the king is an underrated episode
Wow, no. 1 actually blew me away. Worf really should have been court martialed if for nothing more than politics.
I Worf didn't killed Duras entire Alpha and Beta quadrants would be endangered too.
For Q - what about furnishing poison for that Q who wanted to die. (Voyager)
Depends on if assisted suicide is considered murder. Even here in the U.S., in SOME states, it is not and is actually legal.
Legitimate kill and murder are not the same!
It was not murder, it was retribution in a culture that considers retribution to be a legal reason.
Just as we are justified defending ourselves against deadly force WITH deadly force, on a Klingon ship, paying with deadly force the just due for a person wielding deadly force against a mate, is the same moral standard. Duras' assistant said "he claims the right.". In case you wonder, there is living proof that she WAS his mate.
what ever happened to the equinox crew? Are they in Prodigy? Or Lower Deks?
I'm not use to seeing Worf as a Star Fleet Security field handler for Raffie in Startrek Picard..
It's interesting that thing with Worf and Duras, it highlights the differences between the two cultures and the politics involved rather well. I'll bet the higher ups at Starfleet wanted to prosecute but at the same time did not want to risk a diplomatic incident with the Klingons, causing them to drop it. As for Gowron, well... That's different as he was ordered to do that by Sisko, he was simply carrying out his duty. You could probably argue the same for the Equinox crew members, Ransom was ultimately accountable as that's how military hierarchies work.
I kind of felt that Kirk ordering the destruction of Nero's ship in the 2009 movie had war crime written all over it. The ship was gonna blow up anyway!
"Ransom and Co." - the "Co." is short for "Company".
Glad you opened with the finest episode of all trek
The surviving members of Nova Squadron perhaps?
Now that's TALENT!
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Err no, not murder.
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The Top 10, yes.
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Ichie doesn't need to stay dead imo. When you're the best friend of a child-god, death isn't permanent.
Quarks shirt survived as soskos new pillows. Look closely at his couch while he monologues.
Garek did kill o briens engineering team in empok nor episode
But Picard fired torpedoes at the shuttle remnants destroying it, which would have made a HUGE crater destroying Armis.
And Wolf's ultimate revenge against Duras would have come in the form of one of the Duras sister's, he could have taken her as his mate, even though it wouldn't have lasted long, then seized the House of Duras along with its land and ships before merging it with the House of Mogh
funny thing dueling isn't necessarily seen as murder, definately in history it wasn't, you have to love honour codes
You forgot Edith Kehler....KIRK!!!!! 🤦♂️😱😶⌛💯%!!!!!!
Not preventing a car accident is not the same as committing murder, though.
@@GabePuratekutaHe saved the timeline by not stopping an accident.😅
@@hackman669 I know. It's still not equating to murder.
Worf killing Duras was not a murder. Good grief. Pay attention. He was well within Klingon law to perform the right of vengeance.
I think he put that in just because he knew we would be outraged. Lots of comments here.