Thank you for this comparison💖 I hope people can follow each build or use ideas for their own version too :) Edit: my DPS number seems a bit low though...should be 34M uber dps / 59M shaper dps.
This was great! as a "guide follower" at the start of every build, I have to say it is often hard to pick "which version", so a comparison like this is really great. It also teaches us how to compare builds and what to look for in the sea of numbers that is PoB. edit: I know a lot of people will be nitpicky about how the comparison could have been done better this way or that, and that is true. But I'm just glad you're trying your hand at comparisons and understand it will get better the more you do it! In the end we're not going to talk about huge differences in build guides, but rather what differences in the BUILD offer us.
You do have to remember that Kay suggested 3 variants (Necro, guardian, and occultist) and provided ideas to reach the end game gear highlighted in this video. Occultist was noted as the more glass cannon approach versus the tanker Necro, and middle ground Guardian
The Eldritch Battery on some of BalorMage's stuff feels really good for casting SRS. If you're reserving 90+% of your mana to auras, then you have to really on the unleash seal timing without EB.
I love this format, really useful. Good job ! You provide insights allowing us to Learn and understand the differences between builds, which is always welcomed in such a complex game.
Thanks for bringing this to everyone's attention! My apologies not to have highlighted this further. Pretty big mistake on my part to not include this caveat. I believe he talked about using a 5L covenant even as a budget option. We ran some numbers today on the G3 discord and came up with the following: Difference between Dendrobate + new Covenant is about 1.6 million DPS according to POB. The old (pre-3.19) covenant is about 7.7 mil DPS. 6L Dendrobate is about 9.3 mil DPS. 6L new Covenant is about 10.9 mil DPS. All calculations run on Balormage's POB.
@GoodGuyGaming3 the dendrobait is only for poison chance. Changing to covenant means you need to support by poison. Or get poison chance on jewels. The damage increase when you gran poison chance jewels is insane. But those jewels are 100 to 150c each for basic ones. So I don't include that in the budget version.
It's also worth noting. For the price of the covenant chest I can build 3 of my budget build options head to toe in the current market. This is why my budget option has "low" dps compared to the others.
I basically went for Kays build but changed one thing. Since Aul's Uprisings with either Haste, Malevolence or Envy were 25+ Divs and I wasnt about that, I decided to drop the Faster Casting gem slotted to Flame Dash and instead link Despair to Blashphemy with a MUCH cheaper Impresence. This meant I wasnt having to hard cast Despair anymore making it now much more consistent to get Profane Bloom explosions while mapping and other stuff.
Man this video is so refreshing and informative, need much more of these build comparison videos it helps me see builds better when someone breaks it all down like that. Can you do a spark one next?
@@GoodGuyGaming3 I'm 37 this year so I dislike videos which try too hard to entertain me, these newcast/report videos dealing with metrics are perfect for me to make informed decisions! Love it! Yea I'm running spark and have probably created 3 or 4 iterations this league alone going from Selfchill to Aurastack(limited by budget), Doryani timless vs Militant faith etc, didn't know there were so many variations! Keep up the good work man!
Hopefully this is what I am looking for. I would like to know more intricate details of the build. directions towards next upgrade, etc. etc. Yesterday I did a bit of research and come with 2 littler conclusions / tricks: 1. Malevolence > Haste in almoust any setup. So if you struggle to fit both use Malevolence. 2. Temporal Chains > Despair for single target. It should be your first curse. Ideally you need to fit both. 3. You can allocate Es regen mastery or use rare belt with ES regen when rare / unique enemy is nearby to comfortably use EB and MoM. Rare belt will result in way lower damage though. 20% or less if you are not using Stygian Vise. 4. Divergent SRS is way to go. Why do you compare versions of the build at different budget though? Lily's builds are expensive. I would like if you adressed some of the most confusing part of the build. Why poison SRS is strong when it only deals fire damage? It's because it has massive effectivness of added damage and it has innate more damage multiplier. Build takes advantage of that by addinga lot of flat chaos damage via level 25 Envy and level 29 Added Chaos Damage.
Great insights! Temp chains is always nice if you can squeeze it in. As to the format, I wanted to compare different approaches with different levels of investment. While comparing 3 builds with exactly the same cost may be helpful in a value for each stat sort of comparison, I think in terms of providing recommendations for a variety of players it was wiser to demonstrate how scaling currency can then also translate to scaled DPS and choices for defenses. I hope that answers your question! Cheers.
Haste is def better than malevolence. But the rest of that I agree with mostly. Haste is better for both bossing and mapping though. It applies to you also. Move faster. Summon more faces. And cuts the travel time significantly. Valuing malevolence over Haste is a POB warrior move. It doesn't translate into a better gaming experience. Rest is hard agree though.
@BalorMage currently I have almoust 12m DPS (including hit portion) but because I don't always have all SRS up and it's poison build that at the moment takes 5.47 seconds to fully ramp up it really doesn't feel like 12 m DPS. It's nowhere near enough. I don't know just how much more damage I need to make it feel comfortable. I can see the argument for Haste when your damage is just so high everything falls over before doing anything though. Also I got question. SRS has 100% phys to fire conversion.If I add flat phys to SRS, it gets conerted to fire, right? Or only base SRS phys damage gets converted? PoB says that it works.
Incredible amount of work to put this together. I enjoyed this guide. I especially liked when you explained why certain differences existed between the builds and the impact of those differences. POE is complicated to say the least and explanations help us casuals a lot.
Really good comparison. I started with Balors Budget version a week ago, after dying on my squishy totem build multiple times a map... Best decision in a long time. But even when i started his 2 divine starter was already more like 7-9 divines. I then went into his higher budget variants and am now on my way to level it to lvl 100 because it so so fkn tanky, with 172k effectictive hit pool, maxed block and spell block and currently 99% spell suppression (+80% max cold res), 22k armour, getting almost 500 ES on block, paired with MoM and Eldritch Battery. All that while doing 34mil dps. But didnt his 2 divine budget variant start out completly different ? With a 5L Dendrobate instead of the covenant ? I remember when i started, it was that setup that did the 9 mio dps already. Because even an unlinked Covenant was already over 6 divines (~8div for a 6L)
Thanks for the kind words! Thanks for bringing this to everyone's attention! My apologies not to have highlighted this further. Pretty big mistake on my part to not include this caveat. I believe he talked about using a 5L covenant even as a budget option. We ran some numbers today on the G3 discord and came up with the following: Difference between Dendrobate + new Covenant is about 1.6 million DPS according to POB. The old (pre-3.19) covenant is about 7.7 mil DPS. 6L Dendrobate is about 9.3 mil DPS. 6L new Covenant is about 10.9 mil DPS. All calculations run on Balormage's POB.
Indeed. I appreciated her insightfulness, creativity, and introduction to multiple ways to play minions for years. A real stalwart of her time playing and teaching PoE
@@WizardosBoz yeah i spent some time looking at the PoB and it looks like the perfect build, tanky as fuck with all the investment, and also packs a punch altho poison srs is a bit dumb at the moment :D
Brah, WHAT a magnificent and original video. EXCELLENT and original idea! I had not even thought of a comparison for like-builds. I am a fan. Followed everywhere, social media dont freak out, and looking forward to more vids! Soooooo which one of the builds is more dps at low and at high ? Thanks !
Thanks for the kind words! Top end DPS is similar between ds lily and Balormages top end build (not the budget version featured in this video, but he does have several discussions on the top end build on his channel). I'm hopeful that we can continue to come up with creative ideas for hosting future discussions, both in format and in substance.
this was really good, you can make it a lil more simple so its easier for you, im pretty sure most people have a level of understanding of poe if searching for stuff like this
Thanks for the comparison! It's very interesting but I think Kay's dps looks low because it's set to uber boss (effective DPS mod 0.7) vs lily and Balor (effective DPS mod 2.0). 13:50
While it is theoretically accurate that Covenant rework in Lake could have made this build show up, it's only half the battle. Sanctum patch fixed how minions interact with poison which was the real clincher for this build.
i would really love to see this content im currently playing srs i have the absolutely bare minimum need way more defence and this was interesting to watch
This is a great format, I went back and forth between different versions and went with Balormage's version in the end. One thing I would suggest (unless you havent already done it) is to normalize the offensive and defensive assumptions done in the calculations tab of pob.
Great suggestion. The reason I didn't change many of the settings was because I wanted the PoB numbers to be both A) true to the build guide creators and B) exact to the specifics if anyone wanted to look at the PoBs themselves. I hope that makes some sense.
@@GoodGuyGaming3 It does, it could however also be deceiving, since I saw some creators activate flasks and certain conditions which are not constantly up, if that is the case it should be either normalized, or mentioned. I look forward to the next video of this kind, do you have something in mind already?
It's a fair point and one reason why I typically reference for league start recommendations (since newer players may not know some of the shenanigans some creators who are less than honest in their PoB configurations). However for all three of these PoB's I was confident having benefitted from each creator myself and observed long track records of openly addressing various issues related to configurations for their builds. It's one of the things that is slowing down the process of creating more discussions like this haha. I'll find a PoB I like and then come to find it's got extra gems ticked, or additional things like custom items built in. Those are fine things in themselves, but a newer ish player may be confused if they try to plug and play that build and it doesn't end up with the same result. I guess some of the tension in these discussions is that uncertainty of a build until a player is in it's closest iteration to the build Creator's dream.
I really enjoy this kind of meta analysis. Thank you. One thing I'd like to compare across these builds is minion attack speed. It seems like there might be something interesting there. Not sure.
Also, Balormage's is a really good build. Max block/ max spell suppression feels really good. You have to switch gems for mapping and end game bosses, with melee splash for Mapping and Multristrike for bosses. One thing this build is great at is sanctum. Put in multistrike and let the seeker minions kill everything in sight while ur avoiding the damaging mechanics.
@@WizardosBoz that isnt a bait, divergent melee splash is necessary for ssr. Everytime i dont have it, my clear goes to crap. I switch to multistrike for big bosses and sanctum. Everything else just falls over with melee splash, it also helps to hit vaal haste when u hit the rares. When u have 30ish million with melee splash, clear is phantastic. When u dont, clear is slow and spastic.
balormages budget build, which u refer too in this video does NOT use the covenant, yet u say all 3 of the builds use it, he does use it moving forward but i think if ur going to use the budget version which the bare minimum required to start poison srs then i think its important to be clear that it does not use the chest
Thanks for bringing this to everyone's attention! My apologies not to have highlighted this further. Pretty big mistake on my part to not include this caveat. I believe he talked about using a 5L covenant even as a budget option. We ran some numbers on the G3 discord and came up with the following: Difference between Dendrobate + new Covenant is about 1.6 million DPS according to POB. The old (pre-3.19) covenant is about 7.7 mil DPS. 6L Dendrobate is about 9.3 mil DPS. 6L new Covenant is about 10.9 mil DPS. All calculations run on Balormage's POB.
words of wisdom "there are some things in life that do scale with currency, and sometimes you can afford to make more mistake, if you can afford the price that came with that "
You left out one of the most significant differences. How they achieve a second curse (temp chains). Kay had a rather unique way of doing that ... instead of her AG, she's uses an Ancient Suffering spectre from delve. It's really nice and frees up great on your AG.
Great comment! I decided not to go into the spectre/curse discussion as I thought the video would run too long. As it was it was already close to 30 minutes haha. I'll try to get speedier in the future while not sacrificing these good considerations. Each guide creator has really good and unique insights into spectre options!
What's only necessary expensive items are Amanamu gaze eye jewel and 5 good ghastly eye jewels. As long as u get 100% poison chance by minions, everything else is smooth as butter. That being said, Amanamu is 12-13 divines atm and the ghastly eye jewels being pricy as well. Oh, the convenant chest piece is a lil pricy as well, about 7-8 divines for a 6 link. My animate guardian has about 20 divines worth of gear as well, but that just is a quality of life.
Glad you enjoyed the discussion! Our next comparison featured Explosive Arrow with guides from Super Secret Tech, Palsteron, and Zizaran! You can check it out here: th-cam.com/video/WNsnNhNIwwU/w-d-xo.html
ive been sitting on my detonate dead build for so long because i couldnt find a build to progress to but now i have this video and im going to srs. also made a blackflame dd so i could afk simulacrums but i just never do simulacrums haha
Awesome idea for a video. I think this happens more often too, with diff versions of the same build being comparable. Would like to see in future. If I had one suggestion I would say maybe don’t read the stats one by one. Can maybe just summarize the notable differences while also showing the graphics as you did. Cheers!
Great suggestion! I'm looking for ways to save time in both research, and production (and thereby length of the video). Your feedback is helpful towards that goal! Cheers.
I followed the budget build and then swap into poison chains of command with new echoforge sword. I think the clear is faster but feel not so good a gain big boss since it's hard too re summon if they died ( by the chicked nugget guy )
I do not believe that ds_lily's version cost that much I have had the same build to almost every detail I took off my covenant and amanamu's gaze which are 13 and 7 divine respectively in HC trade it cost me around 20/22 divine the jewels and clusters are easy to selfcraft so all in all it's around 40-45divine rather than 127divine which isn't that expensive if u keep investing and crafting your gear as u progress
I would appreciate if you add the SSF aspect of each one also as for example the Covenant is a hell of a body armour to farm, the balormage alternative is way more open for SSF players. thanks for the video
That prolly makes a huge difference for DPS uptime if you've got a significant amount of duration. Glad you've found a neat trick and shared it! Cheers.
28 minute video and most of it is just reading off the screen. I like the idea of this video, comparing different options.... Would have been nice to see (and hear) more discussion about the items that go into them, the pros and cons of each, and how they "feel" to play such as movement speed, movement skills, curses, etc. Just giving feedback that I didn't end up finishing the video after ~5 min because I don't really need someone reading off screen snips of PoB to me.
Thanks for bringing this to everyone's attention! My apologies not to have highlighted this further. Pretty big mistake on my part to not include this caveat. I believe he talked about using a 5L covenant even as a budget option. We ran some numbers today on the G3 discord and came up with the following: Difference between Dendrobate + new Covenant is about 1.6 million DPS according to POB. The old (pre-3.19) covenant is about 7.7 mil DPS. 6L Dendrobate is about 9.3 mil DPS. 6L new Covenant is about 10.9 mil DPS. All calculations run on Balormage's POB.
Each build has multiple buttons available to add power, however simply casting SRS alone can still provide strong amounts of damage while remaining mobile yourself or hiding around terrain. The least clicks required builds for minions are generally spectre builds, golem builds or zombie builds since those are persistent minions.
I appreciate this comparison, even though it's a bit depressing to see the build I've been working on become so meta. The state of minion builds seems pretty poor right now overall; I can only guess that, now a few big streamers have figured out that there is one that still stands out for massive damage, more nerfs are coming.
I certainly hope not more nerfs. In fact, this build is partly possible due to the buffs the unique armour (the covenant) received in 3.19. I wonder if in 3.21 we will see any melee builds emerge as strong end game builds with the buffs that have come in 3.20 to some uniques.
@@GoodGuyGaming3 I think melee could have been more popular this league with all the buffs, if not for the league mechanic itself; it's completely antithetical to melee because it doesn't matter how many defense layers you have, you are going to lose if you get hit at all. I just wish GGG didn't hate minions so much though. There used to be so many cool things we could do with spectres, zombies, golems, etc. but it's been whittled down over and over again across every league.
Gonna say that Baylor mage damage is wayyy off. He has two separate videos out. One being dot damage capped and his last one with the super high end budget has 18mil vs Uber Pinnacle bosses.
Thanks for the comment! You are correct that this is Balormage's budget POB. His budget version of the build, which is what we specifically mention in the build introduction (first few minutes of the build), is the version we took a look at for this discussion. I hope that clarifies any confusion!
Also account for the fact that dslily version is HC viable as opposed to the others, effective hit pool is fake that 100k+ for Balor isn't really a 100 you'd easily die to a shaper guardian as opposed to DS lily version spell suppression also reads : bosses deal 50% less damage to you so yeah don't brand her build as expensive I league started it with 0 currency and it stayed alive for weeks to a point where I started to get bored of it not dying until I did lol
I also was on cap spell block and 55% block with no glancing blows and 98% spell supp and also a pseudo Perma flasks thanks to glorious vanity jewels that grants 4 flask charges per 5 secs for every empty flask slot + increased recharge for flask and reduced charges used I had 3 utility flasks up pretty much always ( +1 life flask) that tech I got from D's lily as well :)
Kay was awesome on her guides, many people just copied her, and since they are 'bigger' she didnt get the honor she deserve, I even think she stopped play poe coz of this. GGG did a great mistake to not invite the queen of minion builds to any content as they did to some other streamers.
As soon as one of you guys makes a video about a build it becomes affordable only to about the top 1% of players in the game. So so regular people like me have to dig through Poe ninja and look for things that other people are doing that very few people know about and try to copy it.
@@GoodGuyGaming3 this is the league starter he made. The build guide from last league is on his channel as well. th-cam.com/video/mx8rabUYe9c/w-d-xo.html
Haha fair enough. If you are looking for a budget approach, simply use a Dendrobate for chest or for ultra budget, you could ever use something like the embalmer as a psuedo 5L in the glove slot. www.poewiki.net/wiki/The_Embalmer
Balor pretty much made it off other builds. He says in his guide he's got then off other guides. And also to note the price of the srs gear was shooting up a full day before balors guide. Nothing really changes much because of his guide. I was watching close.
Thank you for this comparison💖 I hope people can follow each build or use ideas for their own version too :)
Edit: my DPS number seems a bit low though...should be 34M uber dps / 59M shaper dps.
Welcome back Kay!
I would love to see the 59M shaper dps PoB please. I would play it to see how good it is ; D
princess give us the pob please.
This was great! as a "guide follower" at the start of every build, I have to say it is often hard to pick "which version", so a comparison like this is really great. It also teaches us how to compare builds and what to look for in the sea of numbers that is PoB.
edit: I know a lot of people will be nitpicky about how the comparison could have been done better this way or that, and that is true. But I'm just glad you're trying your hand at comparisons and understand it will get better the more you do it! In the end we're not going to talk about huge differences in build guides, but rather what differences in the BUILD offer us.
Thanks for the feedback! I'm hoping to improve with these sorts of discussions in the future, and feedback like yours will help us do that!
You do have to remember that Kay suggested 3 variants (Necro, guardian, and occultist) and provided ideas to reach the end game gear highlighted in this video. Occultist was noted as the more glass cannon approach versus the tanker Necro, and middle ground Guardian
The Eldritch Battery on some of BalorMage's stuff feels really good for casting SRS. If you're reserving 90+% of your mana to auras, then you have to really on the unleash seal timing without EB.
I love this format, really useful. Good job !
You provide insights allowing us to Learn and understand the differences between builds, which is always welcomed in such a complex game.
Thanks for the kind words Gray!
Balor's Low budget version uses a Dendrobate body armor instead of the Covenant, and the damage is based on a 5link.
Wanted tonwrite the same thing, good that I looked trought comments... :)
Thanks for bringing this to everyone's attention! My apologies not to have highlighted this further. Pretty big mistake on my part to not include this caveat. I believe he talked about using a 5L covenant even as a budget option. We ran some numbers today on the G3 discord and came up with the following:
Difference between Dendrobate + new Covenant is about 1.6 million DPS according to POB.
The old (pre-3.19) covenant is about 7.7 mil DPS.
6L Dendrobate is about 9.3 mil DPS.
6L new Covenant is about 10.9 mil DPS.
All calculations run on Balormage's POB.
I am using using balors budget build still at lvl 94
@GoodGuyGaming3 the dendrobait is only for poison chance. Changing to covenant means you need to support by poison. Or get poison chance on jewels. The damage increase when you gran poison chance jewels is insane. But those jewels are 100 to 150c each for basic ones. So I don't include that in the budget version.
It's also worth noting. For the price of the covenant chest I can build 3 of my budget build options head to toe in the current market. This is why my budget option has "low" dps compared to the others.
A really good comparison on some of the most popular SRS builds out there right now. Great work.
Thanks for the kind words Sean!
I basically went for Kays build but changed one thing.
Since Aul's Uprisings with either Haste, Malevolence or Envy were 25+ Divs and I wasnt about that, I decided to drop the Faster Casting gem slotted to Flame Dash and instead link Despair to Blashphemy with a MUCH cheaper Impresence. This meant I wasnt having to hard cast Despair anymore making it now much more consistent to get Profane Bloom explosions while mapping and other stuff.
Man this video is so refreshing and informative, need much more of these build comparison videos it helps me see builds better when someone breaks it all down like that.
Can you do a spark one next?
Thanks for the kind words! I'm not sure which builds to compare next, so maybe Spark is the way to go....
@@GoodGuyGaming3 I'm 37 this year so I dislike videos which try too hard to entertain me, these newcast/report videos dealing with metrics are perfect for me to make informed decisions! Love it!
Yea I'm running spark and have probably created 3 or 4 iterations this league alone going from Selfchill to Aurastack(limited by budget), Doryani timless vs Militant faith etc, didn't know there were so many variations!
Keep up the good work man!
Really great comparison. I have done this comparison myself, but that makes this more useful as I can understand more of what you are saying!
Hopefully this is what I am looking for. I would like to know more intricate details of the build. directions towards next upgrade, etc. etc.
Yesterday I did a bit of research and come with 2 littler conclusions / tricks:
1. Malevolence > Haste in almoust any setup. So if you struggle to fit both use Malevolence.
2. Temporal Chains > Despair for single target. It should be your first curse. Ideally you need to fit both.
3. You can allocate Es regen mastery or use rare belt with ES regen when rare / unique enemy is nearby to comfortably use EB and MoM. Rare belt will result in way lower damage though. 20% or less if you are not using Stygian Vise.
4. Divergent SRS is way to go.
Why do you compare versions of the build at different budget though? Lily's builds are expensive.
I would like if you adressed some of the most confusing part of the build. Why poison SRS is strong when it only deals fire damage? It's because it has massive effectivness of added damage and it has innate more damage multiplier. Build takes advantage of that by addinga lot of flat chaos damage via level 25 Envy and level 29 Added Chaos Damage.
Great insights! Temp chains is always nice if you can squeeze it in. As to the format, I wanted to compare different approaches with different levels of investment. While comparing 3 builds with exactly the same cost may be helpful in a value for each stat sort of comparison, I think in terms of providing recommendations for a variety of players it was wiser to demonstrate how scaling currency can then also translate to scaled DPS and choices for defenses. I hope that answers your question! Cheers.
Haste is def better than malevolence. But the rest of that I agree with mostly. Haste is better for both bossing and mapping though. It applies to you also. Move faster. Summon more faces. And cuts the travel time significantly. Valuing malevolence over Haste is a POB warrior move. It doesn't translate into a better gaming experience.
Rest is hard agree though.
@BalorMage currently I have almoust 12m DPS (including hit portion) but because I don't always have all SRS up and it's poison build that at the moment takes 5.47 seconds to fully ramp up it really doesn't feel like 12 m DPS. It's nowhere near enough. I don't know just how much more damage I need to make it feel comfortable. I can see the argument for Haste when your damage is just so high everything falls over before doing anything though.
Also I got question. SRS has 100% phys to fire conversion.If I add flat phys to SRS, it gets conerted to fire, right? Or only base SRS phys damage gets converted? PoB says that it works.
@ILikeGuns1992 it works at 25% the rate. Because of withering touch. Also do you have melee splash? I'd have to see it to know what's wrong.
@@Balormage I don't use Melee splash.
Incredible amount of work to put this together. I enjoyed this guide. I especially liked when you explained why certain differences existed between the builds and the impact of those differences. POE is complicated to say the least and explanations help us casuals a lot.
Thanks for the kind words Richard! Glad the presentation helped!
Really good comparison.
I started with Balors Budget version a week ago, after dying on my squishy totem build multiple times a map... Best decision in a long time.
But even when i started his 2 divine starter was already more like 7-9 divines. I then went into his higher budget variants and am now on my way to level it to lvl 100 because it so so fkn tanky, with 172k effectictive hit pool, maxed block and spell block and currently 99% spell suppression (+80% max cold res), 22k armour, getting almost 500 ES on block, paired with MoM and Eldritch Battery.
All that while doing 34mil dps.
But didnt his 2 divine budget variant start out completly different ? With a 5L Dendrobate instead of the covenant ? I remember when i started, it was that setup that did the 9 mio dps already.
Because even an unlinked Covenant was already over 6 divines (~8div for a 6L)
Thanks for the kind words! Thanks for bringing this to everyone's attention! My apologies not to have highlighted this further. Pretty big mistake on my part to not include this caveat. I believe he talked about using a 5L covenant even as a budget option. We ran some numbers today on the G3 discord and came up with the following:
Difference between Dendrobate + new Covenant is about 1.6 million DPS according to POB.
The old (pre-3.19) covenant is about 7.7 mil DPS.
6L Dendrobate is about 9.3 mil DPS.
6L new Covenant is about 10.9 mil DPS.
All calculations run on Balormage's POB.
these videos are sooo useful and really well done!
It's unfortunate that Kay decided to quit POE a few days ago, she'll be missed.
Good vid. 👍
Indeed. I appreciated her insightfulness, creativity, and introduction to multiple ways to play minions for years. A real stalwart of her time playing and teaching PoE
I'm curious how Steelmages Scion (necro+pathfinder) poison SRS turns out
His one looks solid as, no AG is huge quality of life for peace of mind
@@WizardosBoz yeah i spent some time looking at the PoB and it looks like the perfect build, tanky as fuck with all the investment, and also packs a punch altho poison srs is a bit dumb at the moment :D
Brah, WHAT a magnificent and original video. EXCELLENT and original idea! I had not even thought of a comparison for like-builds. I am a fan. Followed everywhere, social media dont freak out, and looking forward to more vids! Soooooo which one of the builds is more dps at low and at high ? Thanks !
Thanks for the kind words!
Top end DPS is similar between ds lily and Balormages top end build (not the budget version featured in this video, but he does have several discussions on the top end build on his channel).
I'm hopeful that we can continue to come up with creative ideas for hosting future discussions, both in format and in substance.
My friend did you notice cost of awakened mulstistrike ? how build cost 30+divines when that gem alone cost 2x ?;)
My friend, did you notice that this video is almost a year old and the economy changes over time? Cheers mate.
Hell, awesome vid! LOVE IT!
this was really good, you can make it a lil more simple so its easier for you, im pretty sure most people have a level of understanding of poe if searching for stuff like this
Thanks for the comparison! It's very interesting but I think Kay's dps looks low because it's set to uber boss (effective DPS mod 0.7) vs lily and Balor (effective DPS mod 2.0). 13:50
Yes I'd like more of these, it's been really interesting.
While it is theoretically accurate that Covenant rework in Lake could have made this build show up, it's only half the battle. Sanctum patch fixed how minions interact with poison which was the real clincher for this build.
Yeah this build has nothing to do with the covenant. That was other builds.
Huge amount of work.
Thanks for the comparison 👍
Thanks! Those are the nicest words a cactus has ever said to me!
i would really love to see this content im currently playing srs i have the absolutely bare minimum need way more defence and this was interesting to watch
Thanks for the feedback Kamaraga! We will try our best to make future discussions similar to this.
This is a great format, I went back and forth between different versions and went with Balormage's version in the end. One thing I would suggest (unless you havent already done it) is to normalize the offensive and defensive assumptions done in the calculations tab of pob.
Great suggestion. The reason I didn't change many of the settings was because I wanted the PoB numbers to be both A) true to the build guide creators and B) exact to the specifics if anyone wanted to look at the PoBs themselves. I hope that makes some sense.
@@GoodGuyGaming3 It does, it could however also be deceiving, since I saw some creators activate flasks and certain conditions which are not constantly up, if that is the case it should be either normalized, or mentioned. I look forward to the next video of this kind, do you have something in mind already?
It's a fair point and one reason why I typically reference for league start recommendations (since newer players may not know some of the shenanigans some creators who are less than honest in their PoB configurations). However for all three of these PoB's I was confident having benefitted from each creator myself and observed long track records of openly addressing various issues related to configurations for their builds.
It's one of the things that is slowing down the process of creating more discussions like this haha. I'll find a PoB I like and then come to find it's got extra gems ticked, or additional things like custom items built in. Those are fine things in themselves, but a newer ish player may be confused if they try to plug and play that build and it doesn't end up with the same result. I guess some of the tension in these discussions is that uncertainty of a build until a player is in it's closest iteration to the build Creator's dream.
I really enjoy this kind of meta analysis. Thank you.
One thing I'd like to compare across these builds is minion attack speed. It seems like there might be something interesting there. Not sure.
Good point! I'll try to keep an eye out for other interesting points of comparison in future discussions.
Also, Balormage's is a really good build. Max block/ max spell suppression feels really good. You have to switch gems for mapping and end game bosses, with melee splash for Mapping and Multristrike for bosses. One thing this build is great at is sanctum. Put in multistrike and let the seeker minions kill everything in sight while ur avoiding the damaging mechanics.
Na don't swap for splash I think that's bait, you don't spread curses and you want the dmg for juicy rares from multistrike
@@WizardosBoz Try it for yourself mapping feels so bad with multistrike and you have way more dmg than needed anyway so just use the qol.
@@stephanf2721 I never had problems with multistrike, explosions happen very often and everything dies very fast.
@@WizardosBoz that isnt a bait, divergent melee splash is necessary for ssr. Everytime i dont have it, my clear goes to crap. I switch to multistrike for big bosses and sanctum. Everything else just falls over with melee splash, it also helps to hit vaal haste when u hit the rares. When u have 30ish million with melee splash, clear is phantastic. When u dont, clear is slow and spastic.
@@doozey365 @Stephan F try windscream and asenath on your guardian it's does the work for me except maybe for Blight
Sort by dps, occultist(glass cannon) > guardian(middle balance) > necro(tanky)?
balormages budget build, which u refer too in this video does NOT use the covenant, yet u say all 3 of the builds use it, he does use it moving forward but i think if ur going to use the budget version which the bare minimum required to start poison srs then i think its important to be clear that it does not use the chest
Thanks for bringing this to everyone's attention! My apologies not to have highlighted this further. Pretty big mistake on my part to not include this caveat. I believe he talked about using a 5L covenant even as a budget option. We ran some numbers on the G3 discord and came up with the following:
Difference between Dendrobate + new Covenant is about 1.6 million DPS according to POB.
The old (pre-3.19) covenant is about 7.7 mil DPS.
6L Dendrobate is about 9.3 mil DPS.
6L new Covenant is about 10.9 mil DPS.
All calculations run on Balormage's POB.
Very cool video. More of these comparison videos in the future please.
Awesome Video! id love more comparisons like this! :D
words of wisdom "there are some things in life that do scale with currency, and sometimes you can afford to make more mistake, if you can afford the price that came with that "
You left out one of the most significant differences. How they achieve a second curse (temp chains). Kay had a rather unique way of doing that ... instead of her AG, she's uses an Ancient Suffering spectre from delve. It's really nice and frees up great on your AG.
Great comment! I decided not to go into the spectre/curse discussion as I thought the video would run too long. As it was it was already close to 30 minutes haha. I'll try to get speedier in the future while not sacrificing these good considerations. Each guide creator has really good and unique insights into spectre options!
You would be dropping max block though right?
Doesn't seem worth it to me let
What's only necessary expensive items are Amanamu gaze eye jewel and 5 good ghastly eye jewels. As long as u get 100% poison chance by minions, everything else is smooth as butter. That being said, Amanamu is 12-13 divines atm and the ghastly eye jewels being pricy as well. Oh, the convenant chest piece is a lil pricy as well, about 7-8 divines for a 6 link. My animate guardian has about 20 divines worth of gear as well, but that just is a quality of life.
it'd be cool if you also included poison animate weapon builds (chains of command), as those can compete with poison SRS while being very similar
Great build discussion/comparison.
great vid, would certainly love to see more
that`s an amazing video style. please compare more stuff. loved the format
Glad you enjoyed the discussion! Our next comparison featured Explosive Arrow with guides from Super Secret Tech, Palsteron, and Zizaran! You can check it out here: th-cam.com/video/WNsnNhNIwwU/w-d-xo.html
Amazing video, thanks
ive been sitting on my detonate dead build for so long because i couldnt find a build to progress to but now i have this video and im going to srs. also made a blackflame dd so i could afk simulacrums but i just never do simulacrums haha
Love the video, keep ‘em coming please 🙏
Thanks for the kind words!
Great analysis bro. Very well done.
Thanks for the kind words!
what's good heiseberg glad to see you doing well
Haha good to be seen again mate! How's your last year been?
Super helpfull as a returning player I will be starting this for crucible (Balors one new 3.21) my only concern is that I am probably not alone .....🙂
I'm impressed by this video.
Thanks for the kind words mate!
Awesome idea for a video. I think this happens more often too, with diff versions of the same build being comparable. Would like to see in future.
If I had one suggestion I would say maybe don’t read the stats one by one. Can maybe just summarize the notable differences while also showing the graphics as you did.
Cheers!
Great suggestion! I'm looking for ways to save time in both research, and production (and thereby length of the video). Your feedback is helpful towards that goal! Cheers.
I'd love to see more like this!
I followed the budget build and then swap into poison chains of command with new echoforge sword. I think the clear is faster but feel not so good a gain big boss since it's hard too re summon if they died ( by the chicked nugget guy )
Kay's Awakened Gems are not included in the price of the build, awk multistrikes alone doubles the cost of the build
I do not believe that ds_lily's version cost that much I have had the same build to almost every detail I took off my covenant and amanamu's gaze which are 13 and 7 divine respectively in HC trade it cost me around 20/22 divine the jewels and clusters are easy to selfcraft so all in all it's around 40-45divine rather than 127divine which isn't that expensive if u keep investing and crafting your gear as u progress
If you have a chance, please take a look at Steelmage's version. For me, that was the most balanced version, much more enjoyable than these three
this was really good. I'm following Balor's, and I'd love to see similar in in future. +1 like, +1 sub
Thanks Geth! I appreciate your kind words!
I would appreciate if you add the SSF aspect of each one also as for example the Covenant is a hell of a body armour to farm, the balormage alternative is way more open for SSF players. thanks for the video
i like to use the glorious vanity doriyani jewel i got me some skill effect duration and chaos res and the big es node
That prolly makes a huge difference for DPS uptime if you've got a significant amount of duration. Glad you've found a neat trick and shared it! Cheers.
the necro's minion gem levels was just another step in making spectres unviable outside of being minion support. sadge
Very sad indeed. I miss having close to level 30+ spectres destroying and shotgunning everything in sight.
28 minute video and most of it is just reading off the screen. I like the idea of this video, comparing different options....
Would have been nice to see (and hear) more discussion about the items that go into them, the pros and cons of each, and how they "feel" to play such as movement speed, movement skills, curses, etc.
Just giving feedback that I didn't end up finishing the video after ~5 min because I don't really need someone reading off screen snips of PoB to me.
Thanks for the feedback mate!
balors budged guid does use a 6 link.... not 7 link. and a dendrobate.
surely it is an upgrade
Thanks for bringing this to everyone's attention! My apologies not to have highlighted this further. Pretty big mistake on my part to not include this caveat. I believe he talked about using a 5L covenant even as a budget option. We ran some numbers today on the G3 discord and came up with the following:
Difference between Dendrobate + new Covenant is about 1.6 million DPS according to POB.
The old (pre-3.19) covenant is about 7.7 mil DPS.
6L Dendrobate is about 9.3 mil DPS.
6L new Covenant is about 10.9 mil DPS.
All calculations run on Balormage's POB.
Which one requires less button presses? Thats al i care about lol
Each build has multiple buttons available to add power, however simply casting SRS alone can still provide strong amounts of damage while remaining mobile yourself or hiding around terrain. The least clicks required builds for minions are generally spectre builds, golem builds or zombie builds since those are persistent minions.
F in the chat for kay
She will be greatly missed.
I appreciate this comparison, even though it's a bit depressing to see the build I've been working on become so meta.
The state of minion builds seems pretty poor right now overall; I can only guess that, now a few big streamers have figured out that there is one that still stands out for massive damage, more nerfs are coming.
I certainly hope not more nerfs. In fact, this build is partly possible due to the buffs the unique armour (the covenant) received in 3.19. I wonder if in 3.21 we will see any melee builds emerge as strong end game builds with the buffs that have come in 3.20 to some uniques.
@@GoodGuyGaming3 I think melee could have been more popular this league with all the buffs, if not for the league mechanic itself; it's completely antithetical to melee because it doesn't matter how many defense layers you have, you are going to lose if you get hit at all.
I just wish GGG didn't hate minions so much though. There used to be so many cool things we could do with spectres, zombies, golems, etc. but it's been whittled down over and over again across every league.
Gonna say that Baylor mage damage is wayyy off. He has two separate videos out. One being dot damage capped and his last one with the super high end budget has 18mil vs Uber Pinnacle bosses.
Thanks for the comment! You are correct that this is Balormage's budget POB. His budget version of the build, which is what we specifically mention in the build introduction (first few minutes of the build), is the version we took a look at for this discussion. I hope that clarifies any confusion!
the point is a 5L and 6L of these item are the same price
i cant choose tbh i like both ladies and they builds but ive watched kay forawhile
Some1 esle notice iron sometimes calling srs, summon skeletons?
Maybe his next witch will be summon skellies instead of srs build in ruthless :P
Oh wow....I didn't even catch that. Just another case of my mind continuing it's trajectory into the void haha.
It was funny to hear and we know how much you love minions so it isnt a big deal that they all wander around
Baylor mage uses a 5 link, cheap chest in his discount build shown here
Also account for the fact that dslily version is HC viable as opposed to the others, effective hit pool is fake that 100k+ for Balor isn't really a 100 you'd easily die to a shaper guardian as opposed to DS lily version spell suppression also reads : bosses deal 50% less damage to you so yeah don't brand her build as expensive I league started it with 0 currency and it stayed alive for weeks to a point where I started to get bored of it not dying until I did lol
I also was on cap spell block and 55% block with no glancing blows and 98% spell supp and also a pseudo Perma flasks thanks to glorious vanity jewels that grants 4 flask charges per 5 secs for every empty flask slot + increased recharge for flask and reduced charges used I had 3 utility flasks up pretty much always ( +1 life flask) that tech I got from D's lily as well :)
nice vid. =)
Thanks mate! Hope you had a happy new years!
GGG is 100% nerfing this build in 3.21. Get your fun in now.
Kay was awesome on her guides, many people just copied her, and since they are 'bigger' she didnt get the honor she deserve, I even think she stopped play poe coz of this. GGG did a great mistake to not invite the queen of minion builds to any content as they did to some other streamers.
Kay's build is 30divine yet it has awakened multistrike...
I priced out the rare items only and stated as such prior to giving the price breakdown and discussing the economics of each build. Cheers mate!
I think it's actually better on Ascendant 🤔
So does Steelmage! We will see what his build is able to do later in the league. I'm excited to see his progress.
i think balors budget version even reaches the 9m on a 5l xD
This is great tornado shot next
Thanks for the kind words! Maybe we will do TS. There are about a gazillion ways to play it haha.
As soon as one of you guys makes a video about a build it becomes affordable only to about the top 1% of players in the game. So so regular people like me have to dig through Poe ninja and look for things that other people are doing that very few people know about and try to copy it.
Untrue. Can still make the budget version for 3 to 4 divines max as of right now today.
more more more
Will do!
No love for my boy Betta-ah? Basically made this build last league and pushed to the end game even made a league start video for it this league.
Send me a link and I'd love to give them recognition!
@@GoodGuyGaming3 this is the league starter he made. The build guide from last league is on his channel as well.
th-cam.com/video/mx8rabUYe9c/w-d-xo.html
i can see united dream 5div next league start... lol
Here is hoping poison SRS doesn't get nerfed into next week with 3.21 patch.
9,900 just over 9000 lol
th-cam.com/video/SiMHTK15Pik/w-d-xo.html
@@GoodGuyGaming3 🤣🤣
The awaken gems kay use are 100 div ez
For sure! I tried to make clear that the price points were ONLY based on the calculations of PoB trade finder for the rares in the build. Cheers!
@GoodGuyGaming3 you did state that. Great video I've not seen a comparison build guide like this b4. I loved it
Please stop taking about poison SRS! I will never be able to afford the covenant.
Haha fair enough. If you are looking for a budget approach, simply use a Dendrobate for chest or for ultra budget, you could ever use something like the embalmer as a psuedo 5L in the glove slot. www.poewiki.net/wiki/The_Embalmer
Balor pretty much made it off other builds. He says in his guide he's got then off other guides. And also to note the price of the srs gear was shooting up a full day before balors guide. Nothing really changes much because of his guide. I was watching close.
Thats a huge lie.... somenof the items literaly went from half a div to 15 div over night it had everything to do with his vid
I've completed the game with 10 divine. With my poison srs. And that's 7 divine on chest. Don't need rest of gear
I liked the way Nextezy (www.youtube.com/@Nextezy) "upgraded" Kay's version (realistically, downgraded damage big time, but still more than enough).