Drachinifel how’d you find yourself becoming a naval historian ? Was this something you wanted to do since you were a kid or something that caught your interest later in life ?
So, they were originally designed to fight the American standards, how well did they actually compare to their contemporaries? Did Japan's plan for engaging a numerically superior force have any chance of working out well for them (presuming that war breaks out in the 1920s)?
In order to not panic, it is usefull to do something. Even if it is objectively useless. Like shooting the infamous japanese 25mm AA gun at enemy aircraft....
@@bkjeong4302 The worst part was the Japanese had both the 20mm Oerlikon and 40mm Bofors by 1940. The IJN deluded themselves into believing that the 25mm was better than the Oerlikon and at least equal to the Bofors, even though their own testing had shown neither claim to be true. The Italian 13.2mm machine gun even showed better results in testing than the 25mm. The 25mm gun was just a development of the French Hotchkiss, but the Japanese developed it as their own to the point that the NIH aspect of the other three guns overtook common sense. The IJN was the only navy in WWII to not develop, or at least use, a light AA weapon larger than 25mm, and they paid dearly for it during the last two years of the war.
@@sarjim4381 thank you, I could almost understand the triples, but the single mounts always drove me raving mad. When they were flying around with a variation of the 20mm & 60 round drums, yet a single 25mm in free mounts. End rant. Thanks again!
Combinedfleet says that only 8 were planned to be floatplanes. The rest were going to be D4Ys that would land on land bases or other carriers. Still, that would be a funny image.
To be honest, I always thought an Ise Hybrid Battleship would always make for an interesting ship model for display. It's such a unique looking war machine and you get to put a little bit of everything on it.
@@1buszybudy13 Right.... The one thing I don't get about is why don't they just ask for the IJA, the army had a entire series of actually functional 40mm anti-airs. And yet I guess the navy just didn't bother to ask
This reminds me of something The Chieftain said about halftracks. He said the major problem is they are mermaids: "When you want a fish it's a girl, and when you want a girl it's a fish." Sometimes "hey, let's make a combination (thing) and (other thing)" turns out awesome, but usually you wind up with something that does neither job well.
Strap some tubes to the top of the primary turrets launching over the rear (to keep them clear of the guns) That way to launch torpedoes you have to turn your main guns away from your target. None of your contemporaries will complain and no one expects rear launched torpedoes.
It would be interesting to hear about the IJN Seaplane Tenders/Light Aircraft Carriers Chitose and Chiyoda. They were both involved in the battle of Cape Engano in the same decoy force Ise and Hyuuga were part off.
The Pacific Ocean isn't really that stormy. It's why the Americans opted for deck storage of planes on their carriers . So I doubt the Pagado was that much of a concern for the IJN in light of its benefits.
@keith moore Which are a rare occurrence in the waters the IJN found themselves fighting in. They happened but not with enough frequency to worry any sailor worth their pay. Just take a look at history. None of the naval forces that ever fought in the Pacific ever took great care to worry over much about the weather. Hell the storm that gave us the term Kamikaze was considered such a rarity as to be considered divine providence. Think about that for a second.
@@clothar23 The North Pacific can be regularly nasty once you get up by the Aleutian islands and into the Arctic Circle. Admittedly, this wasn't really considered as a theater so navies that sailed in the Pacific didn't give it much mind- until the IJN conducted their 'feint' in order to hide their true target, which was Midway (though some historians would argue that it was actually not a feint and was intended to protect their northern flank). Both the IJN and later the USN had the extreme displeasure of heading up there for invasion operations but wisely chose NOT to do so during winter. Personally, I've been in a winter storm in that area in an Adams class destroyer, and we all had to trice up. 40 degree rolls were the norm and even the saltiest of sailors were getting green around the gills in that weather. No one was allowed topside during the storm- not even the loookouts.
@@VintageCarHistory Well yes , the northern extremes of the Pacific aren't exactly the nicest of places , it shares this with the Atlantic . But as you say naval engagements in these reaches were rather rare. Though I will have to bow to your personal experience in these waters aboard a destroyer. Lord knows the few summer time trips I made in my uncle's yacht in the Northern Atlantic made me realise I wanted no part of it during wintertime.
After pressing like, sipping on my coffee and watching the video I concluded, that the actual usefullness (or lack of) a battlecarrier was not tested by the Ise's....
I rather agree while its in that strange realm of having to try to design around to vastly different sets of needs but as a niche weapon system they may have had a place but by the time isa ,hyuga where converted japan was so beaten down that even if they had seen a fair fight they wouldn't have really been to do much.
@@petman515 : Ironically, if someone tried to do a modern, something like the Ise hybrids would probably be one of the only sensible contenders, with Arsenal Ships and Conventional-Missile Submarines being the others.
@@absalomdraconis Basically a heavly armed and armored (battle)carrier comes from the perceived fact, that a carrier before long range air search radar would be unable to defend against an airstrike. HMS Glorious and even the Taffy 3 demonstrated unwillingly, that even surface combatants can get within gun range. Same for the Admiral Kuznetsov, which as a guided missile carrier cruiser was designed for the somewhat confined Black Sea. Besides, since "true" carriers cannot sail legally in and out of the Black Sea, so it was classified a cruiser, anyways.
Karl von Gazenberg .....except neither Glorious nor Taffy 3 are actually good case studies, because the former was caused by human stupidity and the rather involved slow CVEs (a fleet carrier could just maintain distance). In reality, a fast carrier task force will never be at risk of being attacked by surface ships if properly handled.
The issue wasn't if you could give it planes, but rather where exactly you expected these planes to land. The runway permitted takeoff not landing, and she's a bit big and expensive for a seaplane tender.
@@glenmcgillivray4707 I can think of a couple possible uses. One is for the ships to extend the range of land based planes by serving as a starting position closer to the target. Second is to operate with regular carriers that will recover Ise's planes afterward. Considering the losses in the latter part of the war, they probably wouldn't worry much about having too many survivors to recover.
Love your videos. I"m not really a WW2 enthusiast as I'm more interested in the Royal Navy of the Napoleonic Wars but I really enjoy the history of all of these ships. Thank you very much for advancing their study.
I remember in the 80s when ideas of turning the Iowas into hybrid battleship/STOVL carriers was floated about, and the hideous nature of it was offensive to the eye. I had no idea the IJN had actually done this for real. And I see it was a dumb idea in the 1940s as well.
Apart from exploding guns they seem to have led a somewhat charmed life. Except that bit at the end when they came to the attention of the USN aircraft.
One quick thing to add about the conversion. Hyuuga's second turret detonation happened in her 5th turret, which is a big part of the reason that the conversions happened, and why they happened the way they did. Now onto the weeb jokes. Remodel in Japanese is kai, so when Ise got her refit in the 1930s, does that mean she got isekai'd? Ise and Hyuuga get to really take full advantage of their BattleCarrier conversions in (where else) Kantai collection. While their initial remodels (and those of the Fusos) let them use a wider variety of floatplanes, including the almighty Zuiun (Praize Zuiun!), their second remodels turn them into true BBVs. They can launch not only floatplanes and dive bombers, but fighters as well, making them invaluable for overcoming the limitations Kancolle's mechanics will sometimes put on fleet compositions. Not enough carriers? Just bring Ise! Hyuuga actually has a slightly different niche, being more focused on ASW especially when equipped with early helicopters. She's also a fun character, her (fan-exaggerated) love of Zuiun dive bomber floatplanes giving rise to jokes about a Cult of Zuiun with her at the head.
Always found it kinda funny that, from a mechanical perspective, the Japanese appear to have pulled off something as batshit-ly badass as a carrier battleship... And then had few planes and fewer pilots for it... *insert hot fuzz meme* S H A M E
In theory and imagination an Aircraft Carrier/Battleship fusion sound like an awesome idea, in practice and reality however it is actually a pretty terrible one.
I know this is a hard history channel. Love it. But for all you science fiction nerds. These ships are the ancestors of the Battle Star Galactica. A battleship with a fighter wing. Just saying.
Yeah, a space ship with a runway to launch and land small spacecraft that act like they are flying but don't really. Another reason Galactic was lame in 1979 and this century too.
Especially, Latin suffers from a severe lack of accents… (However, some knowledge of Greek is of distinctive help with Latin, as there are regular constructs in Greek, which explain half of Latin's irregularities.)
E.g., the medial in Greek and transitive vs intransitive verbs in Latin. (Actually, most of the irregularities in Latin are explained by "hidden" grammar, like classes with just a few members, which were still present in languages that had an influence on Latin. If you happen to know any of these, Latin starts to make sense…) Regarding subjunctives, well, as a German speaker I wasn't even thinking of that. ;-)
As it turned out the Japanese should simply have left the ships as full battleships. Removing 33.3% of the main battery simply left them as even less effective Fuso types with nearly the entire area aft of midships not being covered by any portion of the main or secondary batteries. By the time these ships were back in service there is no way float planes could match the performance (speed, maneuverability and range) of standard carrier or land based fighters and bombers. Outstanding as always sir. Bravo Zulu.
One of the silliest conversions I have ever seen. It went from a half-decent battleship that might have been useful at Guadalcanal. To a near-useless hybrid. Desperation makes people do stupid things.
@@VersusARCH She was only 5 knots (5.75 mph) slower. Over 10 hours at night, plus an hour or two of combat, that is only 57.5 miles. Not a giant difference. And that is only if the Kongo's maintain flank the ENTIRE night. But okay, how about two extra battleships at Leyte Gulf? Or wherever. Two battleships offer a WHOLE lot more use than two hybrid carriers that carry a whopping 22 aircraft each. And half of them were floatplanes. The conversions were galactically stupid. Period. Either keep the battleships. Or convert them to full-on carriers. Not these useless things. ☮
I think the BB CV version of the Ise looks cool AF. I reckon that it could have been a good design if they had made the carrier deck & hangar all the way to the pagoda (relocating the funnel to the side, naturally). Possibly giving said deck a diagonal tilt to the left so it doesn't end on a head on against the bridge, lol. Keep the two guns at the front just in case you need to defend against something and focus on carrier operation. Still, I love the way it looks. The Japanese had the coolest-looking ships of the war while the Italians had the most beautiful.
10: In their defense, this is probably as good as you can do a battleship-carrier hybrid without helicopters. 20: In indictment of them, this is probably as good as you can do a battleship-carrier hybrid without helicopters. Goto 10.
Since the conversion actually happened there is a possibility this gets implemented into WT, but beforehand Gaijin will have to figure out how to do carriers.
Are there any nations you would consider to have had the potential to be a major naval power, but which for whatever reason didn't live up to that potential?
China, then they became isolationist. I'm talking about medieval China, when they built one of the biggest navies in the world, then let it rot in harbour.
To be honest i do not understand the argument "multiple turrets needed to engage multiple targets there fore double instead tripples" multiple targets would also require multiple (heavy) sets of fire controls and observation to be effective. These seem to be missing.
Nguyen Johnathan The irony is that the Japanese actually went for the more efficient American-style model (3xtriples, AoN armour schemes, etc) with the Yamato-class.
Nguyen Johnathan Rather ironic that the most iconic IJN battleships of all were a major divergence from traditional IJN designs, and more of a American design supersized and then built in Japan.
You mention the AA rockets that were installed. I have heard of these, but, I have never heard anything of their effectiveness, or, how they were used. A total unknown to me.
Looking at the battle-carrier plan, how the heck did they manage to rotate the back turret? It looks like its gonna to hit the crane in either direction and I dont see the guns able to raise high enough to clear the crane.
A few small number suspected, but the services (specially the leadership) did some audits and investigations and came up with the answer: "Nope, ENIGMA is safe and awesome."
When the qestion came up, the german leadership said: "We asked the guy who's arse would be on the line if enigma WERE compromised, and he assured us, every thing's fine. And we have no reason to not take his word at face vallue."
They were outright told it had been by the Italian navy, but chose not to believe it. On the other hand, the Abwehr was anti-Hitler, so that may have been intentional.
If I could make a wish to have preserved one of the WW2 battleships that was lost/scrapped, it would have to be for this crazy battleship-carrier hybrid. Wouldn’t that just be something to see??
I hate to be pedantic but Drach might want to change the video description above. Hint "toady's". Unless he wants a toady side kick to pander to his ego, where do I submit my application?
Yeah so many gun turrets and then the crazy conversion. Totally unreal but expected from a navy that has submarines with planes too. Forget space battleship Yamato because Ise is the real "Galactica" battlecarrier.
Ya know, I've been screaming for 3 years to the makers of WoWS to have a "premium" IJS ISE in which both of the onboard squadrons has 2 kamikaze acft option.
Ise was sunk by planes from VBF94 flying off the USS Lexington. Squadron commander Lester Wall Jr. was credited with dropping a 1000 bomb that went directly down her stack exploding in the Ise's boilers and breaking her keel. The LtCmdr was awarded with the Navy Cross for this action at Kure harbor.
As we laugh at the hybrid Japanese Battleship / Aircraft carrier that never got an air wing, remember there were people in the U.S. Navy in the 1970's and 80's who wanted to do the same thing with the four Iowa class battleships. The AV-8B Harrier was considered to be the perfect plane to use with such a short flight deck. There were alternative plans for combo battleship / amphibious assault craft with helicopters instead of jets and one proposal for removing all three guns turrets and converting at least one of the Iowas into a giant missile platform; with anti-air missiles, anti-ship missiles and nukes; the same ones the Polaris subs carried. The cost of doing any of these conversions was what kept them on the drawing board instead of becoming a reality.
Kwolfx The sad thing is, the Iowas even existing in the first place was questionable to start with.....arguably the best-designed battleships ever, but built after battleships were obsolete.
@@bkjeong4302 _ I once told something like this to a person who considered himself an maritime history expert. He wasn't, but he did write a pretty good book about the sinking of the Andrea Doria. Anyway, I told him the Iowa class battleships were only good as anti-aircraft platforms to help protect the far more important aircraft carriers and occasionally good for ground support fire; though in reality it was generally the older battleships which performed that type of fire mission. His reply was to ask a question. "If these battleships were obsolete, why was the U.S.S. Missouri chosen as the ship where the Japanese surrender ceremony was held?" My answer was that I had read that U.S. Navy leaders wanted to get on new President Harry Truman's good side by holding the surrender ceremony on a ship named after the President's home state. IMO the surrender ceremony should have been held on the U.S.S. Enterprise, except it was on the West Coast of the U.S. undergoing repairs, but as an individual ship and as a representative of aircraft carriers in general, the Enterprise did more to win the war than all of the American battleships combined.
Kwolfx This so much. The Iowas were very well-designed, but they likely take the cake for being the most overrated battleships in terms of their actual combat usefulness. Even in that AA role, two CLAAs would have provided just as much AA cover as one Iowa at less cost.
Did anyone really think that a hybrid Battleship/Aircraft Carrier was a good idea? All you get is a ship that doesn't work as an Aircraft Carrier, and is much less effective as a Battleship. If i'm missing something, or you think I'm just completely wrong, let me know...
Pinned post for Q&A :)
Did the Germans ever suspect that Enigma was compromised?
Drachinifel how’d you find yourself becoming a naval historian ? Was this something you wanted to do since you were a kid or something that caught your interest later in life ?
Who is this magnificient toady making the Ise-Class his topic? (See Video Description) :P
Q&A could a modern battleship be made Viable in your opinion.
So, they were originally designed to fight the American standards, how well did they actually compare to their contemporaries? Did Japan's plan for engaging a numerically superior force have any chance of working out well for them (presuming that war breaks out in the 1920s)?
Late-War IJN Aviator: "Wow, 70m seems awfully short. It's going to be hard to land on that."
IJN Officer: "I wouldn't worry too much about landing."
One of the pilots from HMS Furious’s original incarnation: “you’re gonna regret this”
Yeah,, now they know why they trained at Osama bin Laden flight school,, bring your own jihad headband,, kamikaze scarves ARE provided though...
Ohhh my gaaaawd that's awesomeness
😂😂😂
"Bold of you to assume you will be coming back"
This is what Beatty wanted the royal navy carriers to look like
Max kennedy
No, he would have added a bunch of torpedoes as well.
But sometimes perfection is just out of reach.
I believe this is a fine place to use the phrase "but thankfully, saner heads prevailed."
Rich McGee Being a military dictatorship run by fanatical lunatics Imperial Japan what somewhat lacking when it came to cooler heads
@Max Kennedy True, but I was referring to Beatty's plans.
Shipyard: What do you need?
IJN: Yes
"Give the crew something to do in case of air attack..." So true for the 25mm guns
In order to not panic, it is usefull to do something. Even if it is objectively useless.
Like shooting the infamous japanese 25mm AA gun at enemy aircraft....
Still better than not having any light AA. Bad light AA > no light AA.
@@bkjeong4302 The worst part was the Japanese had both the 20mm Oerlikon and 40mm Bofors by 1940. The IJN deluded themselves into believing that the 25mm was better than the Oerlikon and at least equal to the Bofors, even though their own testing had shown neither claim to be true. The Italian 13.2mm machine gun even showed better results in testing than the 25mm. The 25mm gun was just a development of the French Hotchkiss, but the Japanese developed it as their own to the point that the NIH aspect of the other three guns overtook common sense. The IJN was the only navy in WWII to not develop, or at least use, a light AA weapon larger than 25mm, and they paid dearly for it during the last two years of the war.
I would cruse at the incoming bombers if I was given a choice between the 25mm or instant death
@@sarjim4381 thank you, I could almost understand the triples, but the single mounts always drove me raving mad. When they were flying around with a variation of the 20mm & 60 round drums, yet a single 25mm in free mounts. End rant. Thanks again!
I'd like to see what aircraft recovery operations would look like with 22 float planes bobbing around waiting for their turn with the crane.
Good sport to let the Hellcats and Corsairs to get a go in at the bobbing ducks, what?
@@observationsfromthebunker9639 Like shooting ducks in a barrel
Maybe some kind of sequential landing? One lands (waters?), others fly around to land later.
Combinedfleet says that only 8 were planned to be floatplanes. The rest were going to be D4Ys that would land on land bases or other carriers.
Still, that would be a funny image.
To be honest, I always thought an Ise Hybrid Battleship would always make for an interesting ship model for display. It's such a unique looking war machine and you get to put a little bit of everything on it.
I have a scale model of it in my bedroom
It's glorious
@@kurumi394 Neat!
Same for Tone and Mogami, but they actually had a more meaningful role 😂
@@Steelshadow104 Except that time when Tone fucked up Japanese plans during the Battle of Midway
oof
@@kurumi394 and Mogami having a higher hit and kill count than most Americans 🤣
6:40 "19 triple mounted 25mm guns were installed to give a portion of the crew something to do in the event of an air attack"
Lol, love this line.
Type 96 25mm AA.
Why they were so terrible? Drydock 18
Why IJN kept using them?
Drydock 55
This has been a public service message 🤓
Hey thanks man!
I mean.... Its trajectory is not bad.
But the fire rate is horrible and the caliber is unsuitable for its job.
Alternately: World War 2 Anti-Aircraft Guns - Enforcing the No-Fly Zone
@@shermanfirefly5410 And reload was non existant
@@1buszybudy13 Right....
The one thing I don't get about is why don't they just ask for the IJA, the army had a entire series of actually functional 40mm anti-airs.
And yet I guess the navy just didn't bother to ask
"Is it Battleship or an Aircraft carrier?"
"Yes."
Why not both?
Or, as it eventually turned out: "no"
The Galactica has entered the chat
So, "neither"
Battlecarrier
This reminds me of something The Chieftain said about halftracks. He said the major problem is they are mermaids: "When you want a fish it's a girl, and when you want a girl it's a fish."
Sometimes "hey, let's make a combination (thing) and (other thing)" turns out awesome, but usually you wind up with something that does neither job well.
New title:
Ise: A futile exercise in absolute desperation. She should have been rechristened “Yamamoto’s shrug.”
Something always so cool about Japanese and Italian ships,
They just look too cool
In this case, they are fucking ugly.
Oh,Italian girls, I mean.. Battleships were easy on the eyes.
@@bkjeong4302 you mean fucking beautiful
@@bkjeong4302 but Japanese battleships look amazing, especially Yamato and Nagato
This channel needs to be used in naval history classes. Keep it up Drach
I agree
And naval acquisition class.
I'm kinda disappointed they removed the torps before they added the flight deck. Because then it would really have it all.
Beatty would have jizzed in his pants ...
They should have added torpedo turrets.
Strap some tubes to the top of the primary turrets launching over the rear (to keep them clear of the guns)
That way to launch torpedoes you have to turn your main guns away from your target.
None of your contemporaries will complain and no one expects rear launched torpedoes.
@@derhesligebonsaibaum No no no, they should've had turrets that fired torpedo bombers carrying suicide midget submarines
Why not put torps under the structure between the higher guns. Might fit.
The Japanese battleships I never hear anything about. Now I know a little something about them. Thank you.
Ise: the (not-so) little ship that couldn't decide what it wanted to be...
Ise: The insecure fuso, that dressed to be a carrier and became a cargo ship
@@Lgs260495 I’m dying after reading that
Last time I was this early, Noah was still a Midshipman...
Classic.....
Those colourised photos really bring the ship to life
It would be interesting to hear about the IJN Seaplane Tenders/Light Aircraft Carriers Chitose and Chiyoda. They were both involved in the battle of Cape Engano in the same decoy force Ise and Hyuuga were part off.
Chiyoda was damaged by air attack and fought back US cruisers with her guns before being sunk
I'm very aware of how Chiyoda's final moments against TF34 played out, she went down fighting to the very end.@@VersusARCH
Last time I was this early, Yamato wasn't in space
the Hyuga was my first ever 1/700 plastic kit. loved it in the (useless) hybrid carrier.
May have been useless but it looks sexy with that flightdeck at the aft
I'd hate to be on the top of one of those pagoda structures in heavy seas. If the deck was heaving badly, imagine what it'd be like up there?
The Pacific Ocean isn't really that stormy. It's why the Americans opted for deck storage of planes on their carriers . So I doubt the Pagado was that much of a concern for the IJN in light of its benefits.
@keith moore Which are a rare occurrence in the waters the IJN found themselves fighting in. They happened but not with enough frequency to worry any sailor worth their pay.
Just take a look at history. None of the naval forces that ever fought in the Pacific ever took great care to worry over much about the weather.
Hell the storm that gave us the term Kamikaze was considered such a rarity as to be considered divine providence. Think about that for a second.
keith moore
If you’re in a typhoon, ANY ship is at risk of capsizing, pagodas or not.
@@clothar23 The North Pacific can be regularly nasty once you get up by the Aleutian islands and into the Arctic Circle. Admittedly, this wasn't really considered as a theater so navies that sailed in the Pacific didn't give it much mind- until the IJN conducted their 'feint' in order to hide their true target, which was Midway (though some historians would argue that it was actually not a feint and was intended to protect their northern flank). Both the IJN and later the USN had the extreme displeasure of heading up there for invasion operations but wisely chose NOT to do so during winter. Personally, I've been in a winter storm in that area in an Adams class destroyer, and we all had to trice up. 40 degree rolls were the norm and even the saltiest of sailors were getting green around the gills in that weather. No one was allowed topside during the storm- not even the loookouts.
@@VintageCarHistory Well yes , the northern extremes of the Pacific aren't exactly the nicest of places , it shares this with the Atlantic . But as you say naval engagements in these reaches were rather rare.
Though I will have to bow to your personal experience in these waters aboard a destroyer. Lord knows the few summer time trips I made in my uncle's yacht in the Northern Atlantic made me realise I wanted no part of it during wintertime.
Last time I was this early, Japan still had real aircraft carriers
The JMSDF: aircraft carriers? You mean "Aviation Destroyers"?
Cant wait for this comment to age horribly when japan retrofit its izumo class "destroyer" to full fledge carrier with f35
@@sankyu3950 i think they already did announce they were going to do that
Jade West
They are already doing that right now.
@@bkjeong4302 that what i meant, right now its still classified "destroyer" but give it a year or so and it wont be titled as that
"What's that, sir??"
"A Japanese cargo ship."
"No it's not."
"Yes it is."
"It's Imperial Japan. They put bayonets on their light machine guns. Of course their cargo ships have a 14 inch main battery."
Thanks for this specific type of warships. They had also aircroft cruisers.
After pressing like, sipping on my coffee and watching the video I concluded, that the actual usefullness (or lack of) a battlecarrier was not tested by the Ise's....
I rather agree while its in that strange realm of having to try to design around to vastly different sets of needs but as a niche weapon system they may have had a place but by the time isa ,hyuga where converted japan was so beaten down that even if they had seen a fair fight they wouldn't have really been to do much.
@@petman515 : Ironically, if someone tried to do a modern, something like the Ise hybrids would probably be one of the only sensible contenders, with Arsenal Ships and Conventional-Missile Submarines being the others.
@@absalomdraconis I can bleave that my understanding is that the current lack of traditional arty is big a problem.
@@absalomdraconis Basically a heavly armed and armored (battle)carrier comes from the perceived fact, that a carrier before long range air search radar would be unable to defend against an airstrike. HMS Glorious and even the Taffy 3 demonstrated unwillingly, that even surface combatants can get within gun range.
Same for the Admiral Kuznetsov, which as a guided missile carrier cruiser was designed for the somewhat confined Black Sea. Besides, since "true" carriers cannot sail legally in and out of the Black Sea, so it was classified a cruiser, anyways.
Karl von Gazenberg
.....except neither Glorious nor Taffy 3 are actually good case studies, because the former was caused by human stupidity and the rather involved slow CVEs (a fleet carrier could just maintain distance).
In reality, a fast carrier task force will never be at risk of being attacked by surface ships if properly handled.
Love the busy pagoda style superstructure. So different from the nondescript American types.
He said "two" propellers. I believe it was four.
You are correct, it should be two sets of propellers.
Well, I think he said it twice.....
I live the way the way the camera captures the paint flying off the barrels of the main battery
"The unlikely age of the aviation battleship."
Not quite as good of an idea irl... particularly when nobody actually gives you any planes.
Ah the French would love that concept....
Aviation Battleship?? And people think pigeon droppings are bad!
And how do Flying Battleships compare to Flying Pigs?
Praise Zuiun!
The issue wasn't if you could give it planes, but rather where exactly you expected these planes to land. The runway permitted takeoff not landing, and she's a bit big and expensive for a seaplane tender.
@@glenmcgillivray4707 I can think of a couple possible uses. One is for the ships to extend the range of land based planes by serving as a starting position closer to the target. Second is to operate with regular carriers that will recover Ise's planes afterward. Considering the losses in the latter part of the war, they probably wouldn't worry much about having too many survivors to recover.
Love your videos. I"m not really a WW2 enthusiast as I'm more interested in the Royal Navy of the Napoleonic Wars but I really enjoy the history of all of these ships. Thank you very much for advancing their study.
Jack Aubrey took quite a dim view of innovations. Would not have liked a flight deck on his ship.
I remember in the 80s when ideas of turning the Iowas into hybrid battleship/STOVL carriers was floated about, and the hideous nature of it was offensive to the eye. I had no idea the IJN had actually done this for real. And I see it was a dumb idea in the 1940s as well.
Apart from exploding guns they seem to have led a somewhat charmed life. Except that bit at the end when they came to the attention of the USN aircraft.
One quick thing to add about the conversion. Hyuuga's second turret detonation happened in her 5th turret, which is a big part of the reason that the conversions happened, and why they happened the way they did.
Now onto the weeb jokes. Remodel in Japanese is kai, so when Ise got her refit in the 1930s, does that mean she got isekai'd?
Ise and Hyuuga get to really take full advantage of their BattleCarrier conversions in (where else) Kantai collection. While their initial remodels (and those of the Fusos) let them use a wider variety of floatplanes, including the almighty Zuiun (Praize Zuiun!), their second remodels turn them into true BBVs. They can launch not only floatplanes and dive bombers, but fighters as well, making them invaluable for overcoming the limitations Kancolle's mechanics will sometimes put on fleet compositions. Not enough carriers? Just bring Ise! Hyuuga actually has a slightly different niche, being more focused on ASW especially when equipped with early helicopters. She's also a fun character, her (fan-exaggerated) love of Zuiun dive bomber floatplanes giving rise to jokes about a Cult of Zuiun with her at the head.
Always found it kinda funny that, from a mechanical perspective, the Japanese appear to have pulled off something as batshit-ly badass as a carrier battleship... And then had few planes and fewer pilots for it...
*insert hot fuzz meme*
S H A M E
John smith
A carrier-battleship is a bad idea....
In theory and imagination an Aircraft Carrier/Battleship fusion sound like an awesome idea, in practice and reality however it is actually a pretty terrible one.
Right. I have concluded that the best time to watch a Drach video is after i have had a couple glasses of wine. Thank you for the laughs :D.
I always thought this Carrier Battleship looks awesome...and I still do
I know this is a hard history channel. Love it. But for all you science fiction nerds. These ships are the ancestors of the Battle Star Galactica. A battleship with a fighter wing. Just saying.
Yeah, a space ship with a runway to launch and land small spacecraft that act like they are flying but don't really. Another reason Galactic was lame in 1979 and this century too.
Love these episodes covering the lesser known ship types.
4:37 Can I suppose You never enjoy the finesse of despair brought by the ancient greek language?
Somewhat ironic when you realise how many words in Western European languages have their origins in Latin And Greek
Especially, Latin suffers from a severe lack of accents…
(However, some knowledge of Greek is of distinctive help with Latin, as there are regular constructs in Greek, which explain half of Latin's irregularities.)
Like two subjunctives?
E.g., the medial in Greek and transitive vs intransitive verbs in Latin. (Actually, most of the irregularities in Latin are explained by "hidden" grammar, like classes with just a few members, which were still present in languages that had an influence on Latin. If you happen to know any of these, Latin starts to make sense…)
Regarding subjunctives, well, as a German speaker I wasn't even thinking of that. ;-)
@@bigblue6917 Yes, but that rarely ventures out of the nominative or infinitive.
As it turned out the Japanese should simply have left the ships as full battleships. Removing 33.3% of the main battery simply left them as even less effective Fuso types with nearly the entire area aft of midships not being covered by any portion of the main or secondary batteries. By the time these ships were back in service there is no way float planes could match the performance (speed, maneuverability and range) of standard carrier or land based fighters and bombers.
Outstanding as always sir. Bravo Zulu.
Battle wagons with cute little flight decks....
Cute battle-carrier girls doing cute battle-carrier things.
Also I prefer the term war wagon over battle wagon.....makes me chuckle more :3
@@Empoleonman522the2 : And somewhat appropriate for the Ises, as they did get used as floating wagons outside of battle...
@@absalomdraconis ......….*hands over cookie* ALRIGHT EVERYONE GO HOME! SOMEONE WON THE INTERNET!
All hail the Zuiun!
Graf Zeppelin: I'm a cruiser that's also an aircraft carrier. No one can beat me!
Ise: Hold my sake.
B. Thomas
Surcouf: hold my wine (submarine carrier cruiser)
Zeppelin would still win because of more aircraft and plus she'll be pretty far away as the ise would have to chase and use less maneuverable planes
One of the silliest conversions I have ever seen.
It went from a half-decent battleship that might have been useful at Guadalcanal.
To a near-useless hybrid.
Desperation makes people do stupid things.
Too slow for rush through the Slot to shell Henderson Field and not get attacked by air on the way back in case the job was not done well enough.
@@VersusARCH She was only 5 knots (5.75 mph) slower. Over 10 hours at night, plus an hour or two of combat, that is only 57.5 miles. Not a giant difference. And that is only if the Kongo's maintain flank the ENTIRE night.
But okay, how about two extra battleships at Leyte Gulf? Or wherever.
Two battleships offer a WHOLE lot more use than two hybrid carriers that carry a whopping 22 aircraft each. And half of them were floatplanes.
The conversions were galactically stupid.
Period.
Either keep the battleships.
Or convert them to full-on carriers.
Not these useless things.
☮
I think the BB CV version of the Ise looks cool AF. I reckon that it could have been a good design if they had made the carrier deck & hangar all the way to the pagoda (relocating the funnel to the side, naturally). Possibly giving said deck a diagonal tilt to the left so it doesn't end on a head on against the bridge, lol. Keep the two guns at the front just in case you need to defend against something and focus on carrier operation.
Still, I love the way it looks. The Japanese had the coolest-looking ships of the war while the Italians had the most beautiful.
I have been wanting to see this episode for ages!
Thank you so much
I remember dealing with one of these ships in capcom's 1943 arcade game
"about as complicated as Latin grammar"
Up there with Robins Williams' line about Chinese Algebra. :D
Romani Eti Domas
So...not exactly a Slavic or Ugro-Finnish level of complexity.
@@Kevin_Kennelly Domum 😁
@@AtomicBabel The only Latin that I can mis-remember is 'mater fututor'.
Love to see a review of the USN Portland class heavy cruisers.
I just love those Pagoda masts they look awesome ........Not sure how they would fare in a gunfight but man they look good
Amazing. Had someone asked me to bet them $5 that combo battle/carrier ships existed, I would have bet against them before today.
The British beat them to it, and it had a single 18" gun on the back.....and a center mounted island.
@@davidkaminski615 Cool. Which ship? WWII, or was this more of an early conversion ship?
Working Guy
HMS Furious during her first conversion into a carrier.
@@bkjeong4302 Thank you kind sir.
Do Soviet aviation cruisers count?
Zuiun is good
Fun fact is that she survived an 100 aircraft strike due to its decent anti-aircraft ability
Fascinating. I never knew about these botched pseudo-carriers.
10: In their defense, this is probably as good as you can do a battleship-carrier hybrid without helicopters.
20: In indictment of them, this is probably as good as you can do a battleship-carrier hybrid without helicopters.
Goto 10.
We should have a shirt with Ise on it that plays to them being heavily armed merchant vessels
Since the conversion actually happened there is a possibility this gets implemented into WT, but beforehand Gaijin will have to figure out how to do carriers.
Good news! Bunch of hybrid battlecarriers are in while carrier mechanics are the worst yet!
I can’t wait for the Kongou Guide
Now that’s an epic ship
Very f'n interesting. I like these stories.
Well at least I know now were the Russian's got the idea for the layout for some of their own Battle / Carriers
Last time I was this early, ship recognition cards came with bubble gum
We replaced tow gun turrets to install a half - deck carrier deck. Now we can launch five more planes! What a novel and "successful" idea!
Are there any nations you would consider to have had the potential to be a major naval power, but which for whatever reason didn't live up to that potential?
Perhaps any of the larger South American countries
China, then they became isolationist. I'm talking about medieval China, when they built one of the biggest navies in the world, then let it rot in harbour.
crystal historical analysis/rundown, zero latter day spin, drachinifel
The Ultimate Battlecarrier.
4:35 As a Latin student, I felt that.
After I failed a Latin exam, I made my excuses to my teacher saying 'Errare est humanum' He wasn't impressed.
Jonathan Hill Well given that I have a test on Friday, this is great for my confidence.
@@warrenlehmkuhleii8472 good luck:)
Could you cover sea going tugs, which served to help damaged or broken down cargo and war ships. My Uncle commanded several in WWII in the Atlantic.
How many turrets do you need? Japan: Yes.
Some are good, more is better, and too many are not enough.
or HMS Agincourt, or Brazil..or Turkey...
To be honest i do not understand the argument "multiple turrets needed to engage multiple targets there fore double instead tripples" multiple targets would also require multiple (heavy) sets of fire controls and observation to be effective. These seem to be missing.
Nguyen Johnathan
The irony is that the Japanese actually went for the more efficient American-style model (3xtriples, AoN armour schemes, etc) with the Yamato-class.
Nguyen Johnathan
Rather ironic that the most iconic IJN battleships of all were a major divergence from traditional IJN designs, and more of a American design supersized and then built in Japan.
I saw this ship in world of warship and was like, what the heck is that? I did not see any aircraft carrier at the lobby
Excellent British wit and humor.
Great ship for scouting
Interesting that the USN would consider this kind of hybrid design to convert their Iowa class BB's to post war.
You mention the AA rockets that were installed. I have heard of these, but, I have never heard anything of their effectiveness, or, how they were used. A total unknown to me.
PRAISE THE ZUIUN \[T]/
One of my favourite WWII Ships because of the unic design.
And you can play it in World of Warships Blitz.
And even there it's not a good ship. 🙂
Suggestion for a video: The Mutiny on HMS Herminie
Thanks Drach, your the best!!!!
(In a posh British accent)
*I say old chap, that's the Ise*
This is basically the Japanese Variant of the Battlestar Galactica.
Great video, are you up for a discussion on the pros and cons of hybrid warships as we seem to be looking at them again.
This is what i am waiting for in WOWS not the papier ships.
Looking at the battle-carrier plan, how the heck did they manage to rotate the back turret? It looks like its gonna to hit the crane in either direction and I dont see the guns able to raise high enough to clear the crane.
Did the Germans ever suspect that Enigma had been compromised? If so, what were their alternatives?
A few small number suspected, but the services (specially the leadership) did some audits and investigations and came up with the answer: "Nope, ENIGMA is safe and awesome."
When the qestion came up, the german leadership said: "We asked the guy who's arse would be on the line if enigma WERE compromised, and he assured us, every thing's fine. And we have no reason to not take his word at face vallue."
They were outright told it had been by the Italian navy, but chose not to believe it.
On the other hand, the Abwehr was anti-Hitler, so that may have been intentional.
If I could make a wish to have preserved one of the WW2 battleships that was lost/scrapped, it would have to be for this crazy battleship-carrier hybrid. Wouldn’t that just be something to see??
IJN Frankenstein
I hate to be pedantic but Drach might want to change the video description above. Hint "toady's". Unless he wants a toady side kick to pander to his ego, where do I submit my application?
Please do a video on the pre Dreadnought USS Oregon. Had a good career and the was scrapped after being a musium ship.
Yeah so many gun turrets and then the crazy conversion. Totally unreal but expected from a navy that has submarines with planes too. Forget space battleship Yamato because Ise is the real "Galactica" battlecarrier.
Two rare ships of the same class. Interesting design.
Ya know, I've been screaming for 3 years to the makers of WoWS to have a "premium" IJS ISE in which both of the onboard squadrons has 2 kamikaze acft option.
Great bb in navy field
How about a video on the ship that sank three times at Pearl Harbor? USS Oglala
Ise was sunk by planes from VBF94 flying off the USS Lexington. Squadron commander Lester Wall Jr. was credited with dropping a 1000 bomb that went directly down her stack exploding in the Ise's boilers and breaking her keel. The LtCmdr was awarded with the Navy Cross for this action at Kure harbor.
1:20 Look at that beast.
I was taught Latin, Greek and Russian at school and still cant say ive used much of my knowledge since i left school after 'S' levels back in 1978
As we laugh at the hybrid Japanese Battleship / Aircraft carrier that never got an air wing, remember there were people in the U.S. Navy in the 1970's and 80's who wanted to do the same thing with the four Iowa class battleships. The AV-8B Harrier was considered to be the perfect plane to use with such a short flight deck. There were alternative plans for combo battleship / amphibious assault craft with helicopters instead of jets and one proposal for removing all three guns turrets and converting at least one of the Iowas into a giant missile platform; with anti-air missiles, anti-ship missiles and nukes; the same ones the Polaris subs carried. The cost of doing any of these conversions was what kept them on the drawing board instead of becoming a reality.
Kwolfx
The sad thing is, the Iowas even existing in the first place was questionable to start with.....arguably the best-designed battleships ever, but built after battleships were obsolete.
@@bkjeong4302 _ I once told something like this to a person who considered himself an maritime history expert. He wasn't, but he did write a pretty good book about the sinking of the Andrea Doria. Anyway, I told him the Iowa class battleships were only good as anti-aircraft platforms to help protect the far more important aircraft carriers and occasionally good for ground support fire; though in reality it was generally the older battleships which performed that type of fire mission. His reply was to ask a question. "If these battleships were obsolete, why was the U.S.S. Missouri chosen as the ship where the Japanese surrender ceremony was held?" My answer was that I had read that U.S. Navy leaders wanted to get on new President Harry Truman's good side by holding the surrender ceremony on a ship named after the President's home state.
IMO the surrender ceremony should have been held on the U.S.S. Enterprise, except it was on the West Coast of the U.S. undergoing repairs, but as an individual ship and as a representative of aircraft carriers in general, the Enterprise did more to win the war than all of the American battleships combined.
Kwolfx
This so much. The Iowas were very well-designed, but they likely take the cake for being the most overrated battleships in terms of their actual combat usefulness.
Even in that AA role, two CLAAs would have provided just as much AA cover as one Iowa at less cost.
As always an interesting update. The Latin comment was good, could be translated a few different ways. Your humor came through again
Did anyone really think that a hybrid Battleship/Aircraft Carrier was a good idea? All you get is a ship that doesn't work as an Aircraft Carrier, and is much less effective as a Battleship.
If i'm missing something, or you think I'm just completely wrong, let me know...
MrWoodii
The Japanese only did it out of desperation. It was a bad idea.