I’m sorry, but I’m just getting a kick out of the idea of the entire town cheering, hugging each other, and crying tears of joy at the sight of this terrifying looking creature clawing its way out of the grave.
It does make some more sense in context I guess, since banshees are vengeful ghosts. The sight of a monstrous spirit clawing its way out of a grave in search of revenge isn't as scary when you know that they were killed by a serial killer/demon that's slowly working its way through the town, and thus that the revenge they seek could well save your life and the life of your friends and family.
@@DyslecticAttack banshees are not vengeful? They earn of the coming of death, they don't cause the death, they are family protectors, helping prepare for a death, like ancestor spirits.
"It's true, I am seven evil players" is the BEST answer ever. I love it. Made me laugh. Though, like, this game had a few good moments. Like Milk coming out of his chat with Malakai saying "I just claimed three different roles to Malakai and I think he believes I am all of them, so that went great." Or announcing Borts death to have Borts head come sideways into the frame. It's great. Also absolutely love the joy from Ben when the Banshee actually was killed. I just love it. AND the absolute joy ana ctually working Banshee brings out in everyone around a circle, all the time. A dead Banshee just has to nominate, if only because they can. And put up two hands at least once to show that they can, too. Or, like, switch between one and two hands constantly. Also, if Beardy had voted in the end there.... wooow. Sucks. But, great game.
Once again, love Edd taking a brief moment to mention accommodations for disability (here, ways to indicate one vs two votes if Banshee player can't raise two hands).
yes!! as a disabled person myself (though not with a disability that affects my clocktower playing), it's SO lovely how accessibility is fundamentally built into the game !! it's something you very very rarely see (though ideally would be the standard, of course)
The Yaggababble has some crazy potential interactions with the Banshee, because it can cause multiple storyteller-chosen deaths at once. It would be legal, for example (I think), for the Yagga to say their phrase many times on Day 1, for the ST to kill off all alive good players during the same day, immediately announce that the Banshee has risen, and then an all-dead town decides on an all-evil final 3 on day 1, with no one even knowing who the Banshee is until they decide to nominate.
@@Kage-Yami the Banshee is dead, but is still a townsfolk that can nominate. If the dead Banshee is the first to nominate the Virgin, they will be executed but retain their ability because they were already dead from the demon killing them.
So, if a pit hag turned their fellow minion into a banshee and then their demon killed them... that seems a bit strong. Especially if that minion was already pulling some heat.
A minon pulling heat can be a good thing, plus wasting two night actions for the extra vote is not nothing. It's probably best done when you have banshee as a bluf, so you have confirmed-good evil player rather than a very confused town. But yes Pitt Hag is quite a powerful minon.
For madness, I'm always stricter on mutant and cero compared to pixie because good players can use the execution to confirm themselves. Specifically with mutant, if they break madness once, they are liable to be executed the entire game. (I know not everyone runs it that way but before I did, people kept outing themselves as mutant day 1 and either not die and claim different tomorrow or die and confirm themselves). Pixie I believe should be able to get their ability if they were successfully mad the day their role dies, unless they had hard claimed pixie previously so good can't use madness to favour them.
I think the intent of madness is that you convince people of a world where the thing you are mad about is true. In this case, a pixie can build a world where they were cere mad (if they're no longer cere mad) earlier in the game, and then claim to be the role that they get the power of. If they can build this world, I don't see why any ST would not give them their ability.
You usually see most (if not all) of it. Generally speaking, we either go straight into the next game or the stream ends. Schedules and all that jazz. - Ben
My noggin being the way it is, as soon as I heard the Vortox jinx my brain started needlessly cooking up an Outsider and Minion that announce their death in the night and I need to type them up, half-baked as they are. I am making them optional to look at by hiding them behind the Show More thing, here we go: - - - Dullahan(Minion): You do not learn who the evil team is and they do not learn who you are. When the Demon kills you in the night, all players learn this. From now on, once per game when a player is nominated you may publically force their execution. If you were executed today you are poisoned tomorrow(even if you are dead). Hunchback(Outsider): When you die in the night, all players learn this. If the Demon killed you, any Townsfolk might die that night. If you are mad about wanting to be executed another player might be executed.
Those be some interesting roles, I like Dullahan for giving town the way to stop it but making them waste an execution is pretty good. Though can't wait for both Dullahan and Banshee players say during the night "Hey Demon, I'm the Dullahan, kill me"
Question, does the Banshee do anything special if the Voudon is in-play, or is it rules-as-written and everyone just inherits the quarter of the Banshee's ability that the Voudon gives (voting while dead, without a token). Also, if the game is in a state where the Banshee is the only thing stopping Good from losing, and the Banshee is then poisoned, does Evil win on the spot or does the game continues on the offchance that the Banshee might sober up? Also also, 5:32, let's extend that. Pixie Banshee. Riot nominates the Banshee, they die and nominate two players, one of which is Riot and nominates the Pixie, and the Pixie then goes on to nominate another two, we can get three chains going. In fact, let's throw in Barista & Philosopher: The Philo makes themself a Banshee and the Barista keeps the original Banshee sober & healthy, there can be up to four chains of Riot happening at once (assuming all three Banshees were nominated by Riot). Meanwhile, the entire town is confused not because of Riot killing everyone in a panic, but because the fucking Banshee has apparently died three times and four players are dying per tick!
1) I'm not sure what you are asking here as what would the special interaction be? 2) The game has always had the evil's win condition is only 2 players live, so I would say run it as the win condition has not been met (unless it's like final 3 with all evil and a poisoned Banshee, then you more likely than not end it early) 3) Yeah you can have that many banshee chains xD though I find it hard that you can get that going before the entire town is dead X3
@@MalakaiSilverWolf Decided to do the math and see if that chain is possible. Let's assume 16 players - 15 normal and 1 Barista. Night 1 - Philosopher becomes the Banshee. Pixie learns Banshee. Barista keeps the Banshee sober & healthy. Day 1. Riot nominates Banshee 15 remain, 4 Riot. Banshee nominates Riot and Townsfolk. 13 remain, 3 Riot. Townsfolk nominates Townsfolk. Riot nominates Pixie. 11 remain, 3 Riot. Townsfolk nominates Townsfolk. Pixie nominates Townsfolk and Riot. 8 remain, 2 Riot. 2 Townsfolk nominate 2 more Townsfolk. Riot nominates Philosopher. 5 remain, 1 Riot. Someone exiles the Barista. 4 remain, 1 Riot. Philosopher nominates Townsfolk and Riot. 2 remain, but all Riot players are dead so Good has won. In summary, yes, it is possible. But only barely.
I thought the banshee was traditionally more of a protective (or at least watchful) spirit, that was attached to a particular family and would give warnings/lamentations about deaths in the family line. In folklore they aren't malevolent, they're very caring toward certain humans.
@@brockmarie that might be so; I don't know enough about irish folklore to comment upon it in that context. But, my idea of the banshee was unfortunately formed through pop culture, where it often is the malevolent spirit's whose scream can kill or drive to madness all who hear it. If TPI's being more faithful to the original folklore, I'm happy for 'em; it just ain't jive within the limited scope of my experience.
It's based on the actual Banshee, from Celtic folkore, which is an avenging spirit that takes out its anger on those that killed it. This certainly isn't the first example of spooky stuff being on the good team in BotC, with the Lycanthrope being, perhaps, the best example of this. - Ben
Is there a particular purpose for not announcing the player who the banshee is upon death? I agree that it’s both more fun and slightly more fair in fringe cases (e.g. poisoner with multiple kill night, etc.), but it was stressed so hard during this stream despite the fact they get almost immediately confirmed afterwards. Am I missing something, or is it just being stressed to nip the easy mistake in the bud?
sometimes the way rules are written, there is "you" the character (in which case it's announced "The Banshee has been killed") and "you" the player ("The Banshee, player name, has been killed"). either way, the one who gets to nominate and vote twice is obviously the banshee
@@icymoons yeah I get that it’s how it’s worded, I just wondered what the big emphasis on not confirming a character who will then immediately confirm themselves 99% of the time (noting they must be sober for the call to go off)
It is technically possible for a banshee to die and live on the same night (killed by the demon, resurrected by the professor) and for a Shabbaloth/Po/Al-Hadikhia to kill, in the same night, the Banshee first and then a Sweetheart, so the banshee announcement gets sent (because they were sober upon death) but the banshee is made drunk and has no mechanical ability anymore. Same goes for a Plague-doctor that gives the ST the Widow ability, since the way first night roles are handled is that they get to do their thing immediately upon being made, so the ST could then poison the banshee after the announcement. It's also future-proofing for abilities like a cerenovus-adjacent minion that tells a player "if you nominate or vote tomorrow you might be executed" or a demon that seems to kill but does not (for example, "choose two players: they both appear to die but one is revealed to be alive tomorrow at dusk") and for something like a doppelganger that copies or steals abilities as they are gained (in fact, a good way to balance the Banshee in a script is to pair it with a minion that can copy a townsfolk's abilities and register as them). There might also be an upcoming traveler like the Voudon that lets dead players nominate, and another one that lets people nominate and vote twice per day (so if you put them both together in the same script, the banshee is no longer mechanically confirmable).
In the case of a night with multiple deaths, a dead Banshee may wish to hide which of the dead players they are, for fear of poisonings and the like on subsequent nights. Perhaps they're saving their special ability for a later day or something. - Ben
Would a demon-slain Banshee nominating a second time or voting twice on one nomination while ceranovus-mad that they were something else count as breaking madness?
Hey Ben and Team: if you are perfecting characters, please adjust the PG text so the evil team gets information when the PG dies regardless of the PG’s health/sobriety. Droisoning a townsfolk should handicap the good team, not shaft the evil team.
@larsg.2492 I think it's more that getting droisened should hurt you, not help you barring any information gained. Both those can drunk demons and minions, hence droising townsfolk should be bad for town, drunking demons and minions should be bad for evil
@@larsg.2492 Courtier and Minstrel have effects that can be avoided by making them drunk or poisoned. If the Courtier is droisoned when they use their ability, it's wasted. If the Minstrel is droisoned when a Minion is executed, they don't make anyone drunk. If the Evil team accidentally kills the Poppy Grower, a Townsfolk, while they are drunk or poisoned, Evil does not learn eachother. Ever. A character being drunk should generally hinder their team. A droisoned Clockmaker will receive a bad number, a droisoned Virgin will not proc to confirm themself, a droisoned Banshee will not screech when they die. But a droisoned Poppy Grower? If the Poppy Grower dies while droisoned, that's amazing for their team because Evil learning eachother when PG dies is part of their ability. Q-Tuber is suggesting to make it so that Evil learns eachother when the Poppy Grower is taken out, even if they are drunk or poisoned. And I agree.
Example reformed PG text: “Until you die, the evil team does not receive starting info about who their teammates are.” Droisoning on night 1 prevents the PG from working. Droisoning thereafter has no effect (at least, that is a justifiable interpretation that could be ruled the official interpretation). The language about “starting info” also fixes jinxes with Marionette, etc. Or even less ambiguous, if more clunky: “On the first night, starting information for minions and demons about who their teammates are is withheld and its release is made conditional on your death.”
@@q-tuber7034 Demon & Minion info goes BEFORE almost all droisoning, so I think we just give the PG part of the Beggar's ability: "Minions & Demons do not know each other. If you die, they learn who each other are that night. You are sober and healthy."
This is in NO way, shape, or form hate, it is just an idea. I know you stream the games, which is cool, but have you thought about doing some NRB style, edited videos as well? I really like getting everything explaines, as well as hearing everyones thought prossess behind the decisions made. I’m sure those videos are a lit if work, but maybe making one every month or something like that would be surmountable. It would give Blood on the Clocktower fans like myself another place to watch thise kinds of videos if they want.
Hey Daniel and thanks for the feedback. As you've pointed out, these live streams are never going to be that heavily edited, as they're literally video files downloaded from Twitch and so can't show all of the perspectives and whatnot. But I'm glad you've expressed a desire for something more cinematic/professional, as we're currently working on something that will be a lot tighter and much more visually appealing. I don't want to say too much more, as it'll spoil the surprise, but watch this space! - Ben
To me seemed like she played it very well. Vocally called out Samantha for being evil, then fell back on thinking Samantha was evil, just not the demon. In what way do you think she broke madness?
I feel like evil should have won. Iris refused to follow the madness in any capacity in the final day. I get that’s frowned upon to “decide the game” with that but I think never doing it gives no incentive for players to ever act on it in the final day
"In any capacity" is a bit harsh. She said multiple times that she thought Samantha was evil, said a couple times that her Savant info was crap because she's evil, and suggested she could be the evil townsfolk. Crucially on final day, there's also a difference between being evil and being the one to kill to win the game. The Harpy doesn't make you mad that someone is the demon or that someone should die.
@@MKisFeelinSpicy Aye, that last one is quite a common misconception. I actually killed a player at one point for not satisfying Harpy madness because they were gunning for the Village Idiot's execution, but made it quite clear that they thought the player was genuinely a Village Idiot. Remember, you are "mad" that they are EVIL. You don't need to get them executed, you just need to make it clear that you "think" they are evil.
How did she "refuse to follow madness in any capacity"? To me seemed like she played it very well. Vocally called out Samantha for being evil, then fell back on thinking Samantha was evil, just not the demon. In what way do you think she broke madness?
A lot of people conflate 'mad that they are evil' with 'must nominate this person and only this person'. These are, of course, not at all the same thing. You can be (and Iris absolutely was) mad that a player is evil without specifically nominating them and without treating them like they are the Demon. - Ben
Evil had that game won, and beardy just completely screwed them by not voting. If I had been on that evil team I would have been pissed after being handed that gift wrapped victory.
As someone on that evil team, I wasn't upset with Beardy at all. First and foremost, it's a game and winning/losing is not the sole objective. But also, Beardy played it really well all throughout the game, and a combination of confusion over the Heretic and a bit of lag on the final day doesn't change that. Post-game Beardy said he meant to vote but didn't raise his hand in time, and that happens sometimes. So no, he didn't completely screw us.
In my opinion a Cera Locked pixie should be given their power not sure about the rules on it but its a massive feel bad and not the intended use of cera
well, in a very edge case where the Pixie is made ceremad as the character they already saw, then yes. Otherwise they are not meeting the requirement of the pixie ability. this is the same as making a Mutant mad as any outsider. it's a no-win scenario
@@icymoons sometimes Evil snipes you, sometimes they miss every shot. "Not the intended use" what? Cerenovus removes useful information from the town and makes players risk death (and early nightfall) if they don't play along. Making the Pixie lose their ability is exactly these things.
@@mmrow1634While you're mechanically correct, I would like to say that forcing someone to not be able to play the exact game they're participating in is exactly the kind of no-fun-allowed interaction that would make people not want to play anymore. Also there's a difference between a one-time snipe and being locked out of a full game. Snipes happen, but I'm really against locking in general because it's no fun to be locked, as evil or town.
@Star_Bright1 one of the primary strategies for Cerenovus is to target a specific player to hide the Cerenovous existence and engender the execution through impatience or tension. Thinking that you don't get to play the game just because you're cere-locked is a lack of imagination and a bit of straight-up selfishness. You can make up all sorts of nonsense to get people executed or saved, with your real information as a guide.
I’m sorry but ST should not have made Samantha Harpy mad after plague doctors death.. doesn’t follow rules and is inconsistent with how both Be on and others have played the character before.. especially at a pivotal point in game..
“It’s true I am 7 evil players” is up there with my favorite quotes on a video on this channel
I’m sorry, but I’m just getting a kick out of the idea of the entire town cheering, hugging each other, and crying tears of joy at the sight of this terrifying looking creature clawing its way out of the grave.
Why are you apologizing
@@BRNRDNCK turn of phrase
It does make some more sense in context I guess, since banshees are vengeful ghosts. The sight of a monstrous spirit clawing its way out of a grave in search of revenge isn't as scary when you know that they were killed by a serial killer/demon that's slowly working its way through the town, and thus that the revenge they seek could well save your life and the life of your friends and family.
@@DyslecticAttack banshees are not vengeful?
They earn of the coming of death, they don't cause the death, they are family protectors, helping prepare for a death, like ancestor spirits.
@@DyslecticAttackbanshee truly living the chaotic neutral lifestyle
Ghost Lawyer, Attourney at Law
Should’ve just called it this and made the pic Dom lol. Makes it even better that he pulled it in the nrb game
The defence rests… in peace!
I love the idea of without the vortox jinx being there, the ST just announcing 'the banshee has not died' in a vortox game xD
“why do you have such symmetrical hands?”
“um…. good genes.”
was such an underrated cheeky interaction, made me audibly giggle
"It's true, I am seven evil players" is the BEST answer ever. I love it. Made me laugh.
Though, like, this game had a few good moments. Like Milk coming out of his chat with Malakai saying "I just claimed three different roles to Malakai and I think he believes I am all of them, so that went great." Or announcing Borts death to have Borts head come sideways into the frame. It's great.
Also absolutely love the joy from Ben when the Banshee actually was killed. I just love it.
AND the absolute joy ana ctually working Banshee brings out in everyone around a circle, all the time. A dead Banshee just has to nominate, if only because they can. And put up two hands at least once to show that they can, too. Or, like, switch between one and two hands constantly.
Also, if Beardy had voted in the end there.... wooow. Sucks. But, great game.
Once again, love Edd taking a brief moment to mention accommodations for disability (here, ways to indicate one vs two votes if Banshee player can't raise two hands).
yes!! as a disabled person myself (though not with a disability that affects my clocktower playing), it's SO lovely how accessibility is fundamentally built into the game !! it's something you very very rarely see (though ideally would be the standard, of course)
The Yaggababble has some crazy potential interactions with the Banshee, because it can cause multiple storyteller-chosen deaths at once. It would be legal, for example (I think), for the Yagga to say their phrase many times on Day 1, for the ST to kill off all alive good players during the same day, immediately announce that the Banshee has risen, and then an all-dead town decides on an all-evil final 3 on day 1, with no one even knowing who the Banshee is until they decide to nominate.
This is easier to set up with a boomdandy
@@maleo9473Except the Boomdandy detonating is what kills everything, not the Demon, so the Banshee wouldn't awaken.
If they are on the script, I am always going to claim Slayer and Banshee. The demon won't know whether to kill me or not.
I had to look up what a Mexican wave is. In Germany, we call it "La Ola", which is Spanish for "the wave".
I also had to look it up. It's just known as "the wave" in the USA.
Milk wishing Ben good luck is priceless
1:57:09 The timing is absolutely incredible. 10/10
Also holy crap. This was the first game I saw where the Banshee is actually killed. That was great!
A dead Banshee has a hilarious interation with the Virgin.
How so?
@@Kage-Yami the Banshee is dead, but is still a townsfolk that can nominate. If the dead Banshee is the first to nominate the Virgin, they will be executed but retain their ability because they were already dead from the demon killing them.
spoiler.
.
.
.
.Very last nom, if Beardy had voted, Evil would have won.
Yeah, it happens. I tried just didn't get my hand up in time. Heretic got in my brain.
Good insight, but please mark spoilers. Unfortunately YT put your comment at the top and errant glance ruined the vod before it started
Hectic game, I had a really good time!
So, if a pit hag turned their fellow minion into a banshee and then their demon killed them... that seems a bit strong. Especially if that minion was already pulling some heat.
A minon pulling heat can be a good thing, plus wasting two night actions for the extra vote is not nothing.
It's probably best done when you have banshee as a bluf, so you have confirmed-good evil player rather than a very confused town.
But yes Pitt Hag is quite a powerful minon.
Amazing! It's true, I think I have only seen the Banshee proc like two times. It was nice to see it finally get its day in the sun.
For madness, I'm always stricter on mutant and cero compared to pixie because good players can use the execution to confirm themselves. Specifically with mutant, if they break madness once, they are liable to be executed the entire game. (I know not everyone runs it that way but before I did, people kept outing themselves as mutant day 1 and either not die and claim different tomorrow or die and confirm themselves). Pixie I believe should be able to get their ability if they were successfully mad the day their role dies, unless they had hard claimed pixie previously so good can't use madness to favour them.
I'm pretty sure in Steven Medway's guide to madness, this is how he says how to run Madness
I think the intent of madness is that you convince people of a world where the thing you are mad about is true.
In this case, a pixie can build a world where they were cere mad (if they're no longer cere mad) earlier in the game, and then claim to be the role that they get the power of. If they can build this world, I don't see why any ST would not give them their ability.
What a finish wow!
A cerad pixie whole game, that might hurt
I wish you showed more of the after game discussion.
You usually see most (if not all) of it. Generally speaking, we either go straight into the next game or the stream ends. Schedules and all that jazz. - Ben
Iris didn't do enough do maintain harpy madness i believe.
Speaking as a necromancer, undead are, in fact, awesome. :D
My noggin being the way it is, as soon as I heard the Vortox jinx my brain started needlessly cooking up an Outsider and Minion that announce their death in the night and I need to type them up, half-baked as they are. I am making them optional to look at by hiding them behind the Show More thing, here we go:
-
-
-
Dullahan(Minion): You do not learn who the evil team is and they do not learn who you are. When the Demon kills you in the night, all players learn this. From now on, once per game when a player is nominated you may publically force their execution. If you were executed today you are poisoned tomorrow(even if you are dead).
Hunchback(Outsider): When you die in the night, all players learn this. If the Demon killed you, any Townsfolk might die that night. If you are mad about wanting to be executed another player might be executed.
Those be some interesting roles, I like Dullahan for giving town the way to stop it but making them waste an execution is pretty good. Though can't wait for both Dullahan and Banshee players say during the night "Hey Demon, I'm the Dullahan, kill me"
@@MalakaiSilverWolf Hadn't even thought of that, that would be very fun. Especially in a game with a patters or Richie.
It feels like this poor Banshee can be poisoned twice as often as other abilities.
Idea for an Outsider character:
Trouble Maker: You start knowing what minions are in play. All minions know who you are [+1 minion]
Question, does the Banshee do anything special if the Voudon is in-play, or is it rules-as-written and everyone just inherits the quarter of the Banshee's ability that the Voudon gives (voting while dead, without a token).
Also, if the game is in a state where the Banshee is the only thing stopping Good from losing, and the Banshee is then poisoned, does Evil win on the spot or does the game continues on the offchance that the Banshee might sober up?
Also also, 5:32, let's extend that. Pixie Banshee. Riot nominates the Banshee, they die and nominate two players, one of which is Riot and nominates the Pixie, and the Pixie then goes on to nominate another two, we can get three chains going. In fact, let's throw in Barista & Philosopher: The Philo makes themself a Banshee and the Barista keeps the original Banshee sober & healthy, there can be up to four chains of Riot happening at once (assuming all three Banshees were nominated by Riot). Meanwhile, the entire town is confused not because of Riot killing everyone in a panic, but because the fucking Banshee has apparently died three times and four players are dying per tick!
1) I'm not sure what you are asking here as what would the special interaction be?
2) The game has always had the evil's win condition is only 2 players live, so I would say run it as the win condition has not been met (unless it's like final 3 with all evil and a poisoned Banshee, then you more likely than not end it early)
3) Yeah you can have that many banshee chains xD though I find it hard that you can get that going before the entire town is dead X3
@@MalakaiSilverWolf Decided to do the math and see if that chain is possible.
Let's assume 16 players - 15 normal and 1 Barista. Night 1 - Philosopher becomes the Banshee. Pixie learns Banshee. Barista keeps the Banshee sober & healthy.
Day 1.
Riot nominates Banshee
15 remain, 4 Riot.
Banshee nominates Riot and Townsfolk.
13 remain, 3 Riot.
Townsfolk nominates Townsfolk.
Riot nominates Pixie.
11 remain, 3 Riot.
Townsfolk nominates Townsfolk.
Pixie nominates Townsfolk and Riot.
8 remain, 2 Riot.
2 Townsfolk nominate 2 more Townsfolk.
Riot nominates Philosopher.
5 remain, 1 Riot.
Someone exiles the Barista.
4 remain, 1 Riot.
Philosopher nominates Townsfolk and Riot.
2 remain, but all Riot players are dead so Good has won.
In summary, yes, it is possible. But only barely.
I like the idea of the banshee mechanically, but the name feels much more demon than townsfolk.
They've said a future official script might be horror themed with good characters like the banshee, cannibal, and lycanthrope.
@@TophTheMelonLord That's fun, it just feels a little odd to me in isolation.
I thought the banshee was traditionally more of a protective (or at least watchful) spirit, that was attached to a particular family and would give warnings/lamentations about deaths in the family line. In folklore they aren't malevolent, they're very caring toward certain humans.
@@brockmarie that might be so; I don't know enough about irish folklore to comment upon it in that context. But, my idea of the banshee was unfortunately formed through pop culture, where it often is the malevolent spirit's whose scream can kill or drive to madness all who hear it.
If TPI's being more faithful to the original folklore, I'm happy for 'em; it just ain't jive within the limited scope of my experience.
It's based on the actual Banshee, from Celtic folkore, which is an avenging spirit that takes out its anger on those that killed it. This certainly isn't the first example of spooky stuff being on the good team in BotC, with the Lycanthrope being, perhaps, the best example of this. - Ben
Is there a particular purpose for not announcing the player who the banshee is upon death? I agree that it’s both more fun and slightly more fair in fringe cases (e.g. poisoner with multiple kill night, etc.), but it was stressed so hard during this stream despite the fact they get almost immediately confirmed afterwards. Am I missing something, or is it just being stressed to nip the easy mistake in the bud?
sometimes the way rules are written, there is "you" the character (in which case it's announced "The Banshee has been killed") and "you" the player ("The Banshee, player name, has been killed"). either way, the one who gets to nominate and vote twice is obviously the banshee
@@icymoons yeah I get that it’s how it’s worded, I just wondered what the big emphasis on not confirming a character who will then immediately confirm themselves 99% of the time (noting they must be sober for the call to go off)
It is technically possible for a banshee to die and live on the same night (killed by the demon, resurrected by the professor) and for a Shabbaloth/Po/Al-Hadikhia to kill, in the same night, the Banshee first and then a Sweetheart, so the banshee announcement gets sent (because they were sober upon death) but the banshee is made drunk and has no mechanical ability anymore. Same goes for a Plague-doctor that gives the ST the Widow ability, since the way first night roles are handled is that they get to do their thing immediately upon being made, so the ST could then poison the banshee after the announcement.
It's also future-proofing for abilities like a cerenovus-adjacent minion that tells a player "if you nominate or vote tomorrow you might be executed" or a demon that seems to kill but does not (for example, "choose two players: they both appear to die but one is revealed to be alive tomorrow at dusk") and for something like a doppelganger that copies or steals abilities as they are gained (in fact, a good way to balance the Banshee in a script is to pair it with a minion that can copy a townsfolk's abilities and register as them).
There might also be an upcoming traveler like the Voudon that lets dead players nominate, and another one that lets people nominate and vote twice per day (so if you put them both together in the same script, the banshee is no longer mechanically confirmable).
In the case of a night with multiple deaths, a dead Banshee may wish to hide which of the dead players they are, for fear of poisonings and the like on subsequent nights. Perhaps they're saving their special ability for a later day or something. - Ben
@@BloodontheClocktower Great point, I hadn’t at all considered a Banshee CHOOSING to hide. Thanks
Would a demon-slain Banshee nominating a second time or voting twice on one nomination while ceranovus-mad that they were something else count as breaking madness?
Yes, it would. - Ben
1:09:50 that was such a good defense.
Hey Ben and Team: if you are perfecting characters, please adjust the PG text so the evil team gets information when the PG dies regardless of the PG’s health/sobriety. Droisoning a townsfolk should handicap the good team, not shaft the evil team.
I'm kind of new to this, but going by that logic, should characters like Coutier or Minstrel exist at all?
@larsg.2492 I think it's more that getting droisened should hurt you, not help you barring any information gained. Both those can drunk demons and minions, hence droising townsfolk should be bad for town, drunking demons and minions should be bad for evil
@@larsg.2492 Courtier and Minstrel have effects that can be avoided by making them drunk or poisoned. If the Courtier is droisoned when they use their ability, it's wasted. If the Minstrel is droisoned when a Minion is executed, they don't make anyone drunk. If the Evil team accidentally kills the Poppy Grower, a Townsfolk, while they are drunk or poisoned, Evil does not learn eachother. Ever.
A character being drunk should generally hinder their team. A droisoned Clockmaker will receive a bad number, a droisoned Virgin will not proc to confirm themself, a droisoned Banshee will not screech when they die. But a droisoned Poppy Grower? If the Poppy Grower dies while droisoned, that's amazing for their team because Evil learning eachother when PG dies is part of their ability. Q-Tuber is suggesting to make it so that Evil learns eachother when the Poppy Grower is taken out, even if they are drunk or poisoned. And I agree.
Example reformed PG text: “Until you die, the evil team does not receive starting info about who their teammates are.” Droisoning on night 1 prevents the PG from working. Droisoning thereafter has no effect (at least, that is a justifiable interpretation that could be ruled the official interpretation). The language about “starting info” also fixes jinxes with Marionette, etc.
Or even less ambiguous, if more clunky: “On the first night, starting information for minions and demons about who their teammates are is withheld and its release is made conditional on your death.”
@@q-tuber7034 Demon & Minion info goes BEFORE almost all droisoning, so I think we just give the PG part of the Beggar's ability:
"Minions & Demons do not know each other. If you die, they learn who each other are that night. You are sober and healthy."
I'm only an hour in and I feel so bad for Lyra
This is in NO way, shape, or form hate, it is just an idea. I know you stream the games, which is cool, but have you thought about doing some NRB style, edited videos as well? I really like getting everything explaines, as well as hearing everyones thought prossess behind the decisions made. I’m sure those videos are a lit if work, but maybe making one every month or something like that would be surmountable. It would give Blood on the Clocktower fans like myself another place to watch thise kinds of videos if they want.
Hey Daniel and thanks for the feedback. As you've pointed out, these live streams are never going to be that heavily edited, as they're literally video files downloaded from Twitch and so can't show all of the perspectives and whatnot. But I'm glad you've expressed a desire for something more cinematic/professional, as we're currently working on something that will be a lot tighter and much more visually appealing. I don't want to say too much more, as it'll spoil the surprise, but watch this space! - Ben
@@BloodontheClocktower Already can’t wait!
I don't get Jen voting on Samantha at the end there. Did he think he was drunk? Or just forgot his info?
I would love to play with you all at some point its would be a lot of fun
Brilliant
Love the character
I just don't understand how Iris didn't die breaking madness...
Not sure what specific scenario you're referring to, but madness breaks are always a 'might die'.
To me seemed like she played it very well. Vocally called out Samantha for being evil, then fell back on thinking Samantha was evil, just not the demon. In what way do you think she broke madness?
I think the banshee should keep its ability if resurected because the demon isn't going to kill them a second time.
what was bens joke?
I'd like to know too, right as he starts the first day
It's on Twitter. He asked if he should use it or if he'd get demonetized. He decided to go with the tasteful bleep instead.
@@DasGanon repeat it, I don't use Twitter or have an account
@@vastowen4562 Jimmy S. (UK broadcaster)
👻
I feel like evil should have won. Iris refused to follow the madness in any capacity in the final day. I get that’s frowned upon to “decide the game” with that but I think never doing it gives no incentive for players to ever act on it in the final day
"In any capacity" is a bit harsh. She said multiple times that she thought Samantha was evil, said a couple times that her Savant info was crap because she's evil, and suggested she could be the evil townsfolk. Crucially on final day, there's also a difference between being evil and being the one to kill to win the game. The Harpy doesn't make you mad that someone is the demon or that someone should die.
@@MKisFeelinSpicy Aye, that last one is quite a common misconception. I actually killed a player at one point for not satisfying Harpy madness because they were gunning for the Village Idiot's execution, but made it quite clear that they thought the player was genuinely a Village Idiot. Remember, you are "mad" that they are EVIL. You don't need to get them executed, you just need to make it clear that you "think" they are evil.
@@wingidon Which Iris did multiple times.
How did she "refuse to follow madness in any capacity"? To me seemed like she played it very well. Vocally called out Samantha for being evil, then fell back on thinking Samantha was evil, just not the demon. In what way do you think she broke madness?
A lot of people conflate 'mad that they are evil' with 'must nominate this person and only this person'. These are, of course, not at all the same thing. You can be (and Iris absolutely was) mad that a player is evil without specifically nominating them and without treating them like they are the Demon. - Ben
Evil had that game won, and beardy just completely screwed them by not voting. If I had been on that evil team I would have been pissed after being handed that gift wrapped victory.
Easy to say when you know all the roles. Beardy was obviously still doubtful whether a heretic was in game or not
As someone on that evil team, I wasn't upset with Beardy at all. First and foremost, it's a game and winning/losing is not the sole objective. But also, Beardy played it really well all throughout the game, and a combination of confusion over the Heretic and a bit of lag on the final day doesn't change that. Post-game Beardy said he meant to vote but didn't raise his hand in time, and that happens sometimes. So no, he didn't completely screw us.
This could've been a great script without heretic on it
I think this script is great because it has Heretic in as well
I think it's a bit unbalanced, the idea that the evil team could wipe out all the townsfolk & outsiders and still lose doesn't sit right with me
This isn't a new thing. The conditions for an evil victory have always been that there are two players left alive and one of them is the Demon. - Ben
In my opinion a Cera Locked pixie should be given their power not sure about the rules on it but its a massive feel bad and not the intended use of cera
well, in a very edge case where the Pixie is made ceremad as the character they already saw, then yes. Otherwise they are not meeting the requirement of the pixie ability. this is the same as making a Mutant mad as any outsider. it's a no-win scenario
@@icymoons sometimes Evil snipes you, sometimes they miss every shot.
"Not the intended use" what? Cerenovus removes useful information from the town and makes players risk death (and early nightfall) if they don't play along. Making the Pixie lose their ability is exactly these things.
@@mmrow1634While you're mechanically correct, I would like to say that forcing someone to not be able to play the exact game they're participating in is exactly the kind of no-fun-allowed interaction that would make people not want to play anymore.
Also there's a difference between a one-time snipe and being locked out of a full game. Snipes happen, but I'm really against locking in general because it's no fun to be locked, as evil or town.
@@Star_Bright1 this is the reason for my point
@Star_Bright1 one of the primary strategies for Cerenovus is to target a specific player to hide the Cerenovous existence and engender the execution through impatience or tension.
Thinking that you don't get to play the game just because you're cere-locked is a lack of imagination and a bit of straight-up selfishness.
You can make up all sorts of nonsense to get people executed or saved, with your real information as a guide.
I’m sorry but ST should not have made Samantha Harpy mad after plague doctors death.. doesn’t follow rules and is inconsistent with how both Be on and others have played the character before.. especially at a pivotal point in game..
Oh shut up, mistakes happen, they all acknowledged and laughed about it, and good won anyway
@@bacontheshoeno need to be aggressive.. just expressing my opinion. Love the game and group
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