Sucks I found this over 12 hours late, it's 2am here and this is way too interesting to stop even if I have to work in the morning. I guess this is why coffee can come in XL sizes.
Very nice catch with the 3 + 5 and 4 stuff. I think the Darksign and the undead curse is a direct, conscious creation of Gwyn as part of the linking of the fire. What exactly was the fire linked to? I think it was linked to the Lord Souls. A hollow is a human missing their Humanity (piece of the dark soul) and Gwyn becomes a hollow after sacrificing his Light Soul to the flame. What I believe the linking of the fire consisted of was Gwyn turning the dark soul into fuel for the First Flame. The Darksign essentially forces the Undead to burn Humanity in the bonfires as fuel for the First Flame. As for the Dark Sigil - I think it’s a reverse-darksign created by Kaathe and friends as a way of doing the inverse and usurping the fire. It also seems to only be something that works on Unkindled, who don’t lose their humanity and go hollow normally. The Abyss is the result of humanity “going out of control”, or becoming polluted and stagnant spiritually as JSF and others have pointed out (kegare). This is the source of all the stuff like Pus of Man, the Pilgrim Butterflies, the angels, the corvians, the people turning into trees, etc. The Lords of Cinder don’t come back normally. They’re coming back this time because Lothric let the flame fade even more than usual and so the flame’s “backup system” has activated. The end of the game seems to be at the tail end of this cycle, not a future cycle. The Abyss Watchers hate the Abyss, no shit that they’d link the fire to maintain the age of fire and prevent the age of dark
Thecookierebel im just glad he's still doing stuff his channel hasn't seen a update in like 9 months if I'm correct. "The Bastards Curse" video blew my mind and opened me up to the rabbit hole that is the deep lore like 4 hour Aegon of Astora videos. I just hope the DS1 remastered dusts off some more of those lore aficionados back in the game lol.
- , - *"The Soul of Cinder is um... fucking stupid."* I just sit smiling because from where I'm seated, the Soul of Cinder knows damned well to stand against me. - Cuz it knows I ain't linking the damn flame!
the soul of cinder is shown at the beginning throwing an undead that couldnt beat him onto the first flame as kindling. You fight him because he's designed to test those that would link the fire, because only strong souls can sustain the age and provide proper kindling, so it does make sense. The soul of cinder is a test.
I love it every time JSF is clearly starting to get slightly annoyed when discussing dropped plot threads / retcons in DS3, particularly when starting to talk about the Ringed City. Its rather Cathartic :).
Let's take a human who has only the Dark Sigil inside of his body. Without the Darksign, he will simply die and so will his Dark Sigil, so whoever casted the Darksign upon humans was either not aware of the Dark Sigil's properties or they intended the Undead to turn Hollow eventually. I believe the former is correct. Gwyn wanted humans to serve as manpower in the fight against the dragons, but humans were not strong as the Gods and their descendants (they would die easily), so Gwyn casted the Darksign so humans could serve as immortal soldiers forever. Eventually, Gwyn noticed the undead were turning Hollow and decided to put the Purging Monument in the city so his soldiers could revert their curse and keep serving him. If we consider that both the Purging Monument and Velka's statue don't have the same powers because of a coincidence, I believe that's why Velka became a rogue deity. Gwyn used her powers to built the Purging Monument and she got mad at him for his obsession and using humans as slaves, not even allowing them to die as honorable soldiers, so she fled from the Ringed City and dedicated her life to the forlorn undead, relieving their curses and probably allying with the Primordial Serpents against Gwyn (guess why Londor's got her miracles and stuff). I don't believe Velka is a made-up deity, simply because Velka's Talisman in DS1 is made from her hair. If her hair is a physical thing then she's got to be real, and that's my theory about her. Regarding the Soul of Cinder in the game's intro, I think he's the last one who "linked the fire". The thrones of the 5 lords can be found the the Untended Shrine, which means those 5 had already linked the fire and Gundyr was supposed to be the 6th lord, but he failed on his mission, so the Soul of Cinder rose from the will of the fire and started sacrificing bodies to the first flame to keep it "linked".
My reasoning for the First Flame fighting back with the Soul of Cinder is as follows. If the natural cycle is fire and dark alternating, but the linking of the flame prevents an age of dark from coming about and making humanity act out because it cant claim its age, then it's not a stretch to think that the First Flame would also act out now that its forced to behave unnaturally. Thus its manifestation prevents anyone from coming close so that it can fade into an age of dark. Conversely and depending on how much you buy into that you can also see it like this: everyone made to link the fire wanted a continuous age of fire, so whilst the flame possibly fights you off for an age of dark, the soulpower and ash of the burned up linkers employed to fight you off has its own inclination and fights you to make sure you are strong enough to actually link the flame.
This was SO HELPFUL for someone who has never played the games but became deeply interested in the lore (I blame prulds we are the souls reborn, why is it so darn good)! The most confusing thing was how a dark soul means humanity and humans are undead. Western concept of "dark soul" and undead is inherently evil and would despise the sun and light. The moment he said "undying" as a translation it completely made sense.
Great video. Some thoughts: the Soul of Cinder retains some aspect of the personality of either the Souls of the Ineffable, or the Souls of the Lords of Cinder of the current age / kingdom. It’s not attacking you to defend the flame per se - but you’ve accumulated the souls of 4 things that didn’t want to link the flame for various reasons. That resistance is what drives the SoC to attack you. Alternately, and perhaps this is connected to the trailer footage, it doesn’t matter if you or the SoC win from a narrative perspective. If you lose, it’ll just use your corpse to fuel the flame. If you win, you’ll use its soul. Alternatively, consider that it might be more like a force of nature, or a hollow, without a specific intent. Gwyn attacks you at the Kiln in DS1. And yet, if you arrived following Frampt’s coercion, you’re there to link the flame. Why then would he oppose you? Well, he’s not... “all there,” right? Whatever remains of him attacks you almost instinctually. Unless he’s somehow “testing your worth.” Either way, especially given that SoC’s second phase basically IS Gwyn, it’s not too much of a stretch to think they work somewhat similarly. There may be more clues in the fighting styles of the four forms in phase 1. Off the top of my head, one uses a curved sword, agile movements, and pyromancy - reminds me of Carthus. Another seems to be a faith based build, using miracles and a lance - then a sorcery build, using soul stream and homing soul mass, and then a more straightforward melee style. I’m not sure there’s enough data to link that 1 to 1 to the Lords you slay, but maybe examining the individual spells would yield more? Finally, once again, this needs research, but maybe the dark sigil is applied to you BECAUSE you’re unkindled. You are ash, seeking embers, as a scabbard receives a sword (coiled sword key-item description). You receive fire and souls from the world. Perhaps the dark sigil then “transmutes” that into dark. It’s a seeping hole in the flesh that oozes darkness - it seems to be drawing the darkness out of you, perhaps using fire and souls as a font for more dark, similar to how the fire keeper channels souls through the darkness within her to yield greater strength in the Ashen One. Pretty much every phrase I wrote above needs a ton of more research, but, food for thought. If you ever need an extra lore fanatic on one of these videos, I’d love to participate further in the discussion.
30:00 for all the Soul Of Cinder knows you could be there to screw it up. Hes the last line of defense, if you're there to screw it up hes going to try to stop you, if you're there to link it then cool it's getting linked either way and the 2 of you will become one. Or it can detect your power or the power of the souls you're carrying so he is just compelled to have them so he can offer them to the fire Using the smae logic in the video, Gwyn should have also just let us walk in and link it
One more minor note about the symbols in the Road or Sacrifices. It occurs to me that some of them look very similar to the symbol on the Soldering Iron, and one of the Lycanthropes is present within Irithyll dungeon where those are found. The brand prevents estus recovery. Perhaps crucifiction on crosses bearing that symbol was intended to have a similar effect. The lycanthropes appear to have “gone feral,” their “life force is overrun,” and perhaps that symbol has some power to reduce one’s life force. I’m similarly very intrigued by how the HP burning lanterns in the Dungeon work. Other than that, there is a crescent shape that is often overlaid on the crucifixes. Could be a connection to the Darkmoon/Sky over Irithyll, but I’m not sure. IRL the brand looks like the Peace Symbol, but after some cursory research there doesn’t seem to be any connection. It vaguely looks like the Hunter’s Mark depending on how it’s oriented. This is a stretch, but... blood? The Soldering Iron and Crucifixes could be trying to stifle / drain / manipulate power in the blood? We see blood and fire intermingle in the Abyss Watchers fight... the Hunter’s Mark depicted a person hung upside down, blood rushing to their head (or being drained of blood?)... I’m not sure Edit: by brand I mean the symbol on the soldering iron
It was good , like some of the choices for pictures were great according to discussion and sword of avowal :D waiting for JSF to pronounce him for you :D
Old video but always love them! I have a theory about when they first flame was found. In dark souls the idea of the abyss and the idea of the monsters consumes by the abyss. I believe represents a philosophical concept of the brighter the light shines the darker the shadow it cast becomes. “And from the dark they came” in the intro they appear as just hollows the lowest weakest form of beings from the dark, the dark cast by the first flame.
Also to add humanity is represented in dark souls 3 not only mechanically through embers but through lore. Embers being what’s left of all the burned humanity over the ages
(Sorry commenting as I watch lol) the soul of cinder has a purpose and concept of why it does what it does, it’s behaving as Gwyn did, it is the final stand before the flame is to be kindles either by taking all the souls of who comes to it, or by you taking it and linking the fire. Looking forward to listening to more ds3 lore to see if these ideas are talked about further!
Another great video Even tho I m years late. What I love is that obviously we all like the FromSoft games but yet U guys do point out the lore inconsistencies or weak plot points....good stuff as always
Final comment, I promise, the cross on the man-grub staff appears to have a similar design to that of the Russian Orthodox Church. There are also other symbols, such as the Double Headed Black Eagle found on shields, that have real world significance. Not to mention the Fleur du Lis, quatrefoils, etc. So, there may be clues lurking in crosses in general!
the darksign on the undead don't seal the dark souls so it can't get stronger is the opposite the seal removing the humanity from the undead every he dies making it weaker and synfoning it to the bonfire and prolonging the first flame that but the fire needs stronger fuels
I wonder if the eight Pygmy lords/dark sigils has to do with the fact that the dark soul has a link to immortality (the undead curse) or perhaps the intentions of the lords to create an everlasting age of dark, as eight turned on its side is an infinity
Sinclair Lore also...what's going on with Morne? Through all of the videos I've watched and through all of the discussions I've read, no one ever mentions morne.
Sinclair Lore but he's so important! He indicates outright that Caitha is the main deity worshipped in Carim and that completely contradicts the assertions made by JSF that I've encountered and I CANT EXIST IN A WORLD WITHOUT PROPERLY CONSIDERED LORE! (Sorry, I got a bit carried away there. But seriously, the man is apparently a walking gargoyle that is also an apostle. He's like the Arnold Schwartzenneger of Dark souls)
I dunno... JSF needs to GG! Oh buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuurn! Btw, I recently recorded a second podcast with Bob on Caitha and Velka and stuff. It's going to take a while to put out because I have to finish editing current lores, but hopefully it helps you sleep at night when it comes out!
Sword is probably from the ringed city but at some point was stolen/caried out of there and taken to the londor. it's relic because ringed city itself is half myth half forgotten and only known sword of such properties is in londor. Also soul of cinder is hostile probably because it's not really sentient as it is force of nature created by endless cycles
I recommend you make a video of my expansive theory. Because I don't really have a good editing software. Plus it would be really cool to see what you guys think about it! Anyway here is how I see the whole humanity jizz. I will also be covering my theory on the origins of humanity as well. WARNING, THIS IS KIND OF LONG... THE RULES OF HUMANITY Humanity is separated into two segments. The Ring and the Darkness. If we look at the image of humanity sprites, it looks like black humanoid shape being concealed by a white ring. The Black Part is a shard of the Dark Soul, possibly even abyss. And the White Part is Soul. If your soul is fully black you turn into a beast, a beast that acts solely through addiction, want, greed, and animalistic means. Which is why most dark things are represented by a hand. Dark Hand, Monstrosity of Sin have hands all over them, Manus's giant anus hand, and his name literally means HAND in latin. If you are "shackled" with the White Part of Humanity, you are controlled, you have purpose, and you are humanoid. The white part of humanity gives people PURPOSE. So without it you are purposeless and prone to beasthood or hollowing. If you lose the white part of humanity, you will turn into a beast. HOWEVER, Hollows, are different. Because they DO lose the white part of humanity, meaning they are only dark BUT the darksign prevents them from turning into beasts. This results in them losing their minds instead and wandering around purposelessly. Speaking of Manus, take a look at his soul icon. It shows a humanity sprite, with the black part going haywire and SEEPING OUT. This explains why manus looks like a beast despite being described as a "primeval human." Because the black part (beast/hollow) is ripping through the white part (Purpose/Life). Also note that Primeval can mean two things, ancient or animalistic and acting based on instinct. Manus was probably not branded because otherwise, he wouldn't be able to turn into a beast. tldr: Dark + White Ring (souls) = Humanity Humanity - White Ring = Beast (Manus, Harald Knights, Monstrosity of Sin) Branded Humanity - White Ring = hollow ANYWAYS... You cannot be human, without the white rim. For the white rim allows you to have purpose and meaning. People who are deeply religious have a lot of purpose, and thus clerics have a ton of Humanity. Funnily enough, the main religion in Dark Souls is called "The Way of White" which is symbolized by a white ring. This white ring is reminiscent of the white rim around the dark side of a humanity sprite. Interestingly enough, the Way of White is affiliated with the Art of Summoning. And if you look at a white sign soapstone the letters have a white rim, and a are black inside. [REMEMBER THIS] People who don't have much purpose eventually turn into hollows. However, this is because humanity was branded with the darksign. If Humanity wasn't branded, they would turn into beasts. HOW GEAL CONFIRMS MY THEORY: Gael is undead in the first phase acting completely ecstatic and crazy. In the second phase he is more controlled, and a human. Lightning begins to appear. This explains why he uses Way of White Corona (representing the white part of humanity) and doesn't use it in the third phase. The third Phase he stops using the way of white corona, and dark soul starts to seep out of his body. This represents the beast. As he begins to act more ecstatic and crazy. Lighting goes about everywhere. THE RINGED CITY: Well, you know how I told you to remember all of that junk earlier, well this is why! The Ringed City is a RING with DARK CREATURES contained WITHIN the ring. It's BASICALLY humanity. The white rim of souls, containing the darkness inside. Clerics of the Way of White spawn in the Ringed City. Also, Judicator Giants can SUMMON people for assistance, and wear cleric looking clothing. They are also judges, and were described as being grey giants in the concept art reveal. Judges connect to Lloyd, and the name Lloyd means grey. Lloyd was the archbishop of the way of white. This proves that the way of white has a stronger influence in the lore than meets the eye. But first lets talk about MIMICS! MIMICS: Lets take a look at Mimics, they are chests which turn into monsters. They symbolize Avarice (greed) and are put to sleep by Lloyd's Talismans. Does anything ring a bell here? Let's rephrase it. Well Mimics act based on instinct and greed. They are also found in ALL dark related areas in Dark Souls 3. ESPECIALLY in Irrythil Dungeon and the Profaned Capital, which is connected to profanity which is connected to the dark. So basically, they represent the BLACK part of humanity. The beast, and the hollow (if branded by darksign preventing beasthood) Lloyd's talismans come from the Way of White, which is symbolized by a White Rim in which their clerics are full humans and are filled with humanity, and firekeeper (filled with humanity) are affiliated with the Way of White. Lloyd's talismans represent the WHITE part of humanity. Coincidence? I think not! ALLFATHER LLOYD: Lloyd was probably the creator of humanity. Not only is his title Allfather, he is connected to SOULS. Because the white part of humanity is most likely soul, as well as most of the Way of White spells which create gaseous matter (Force, Magic Protection, Wrath of Gods, Way of White Corona, etc). He was the Archbishop which is greatly high ranking. This ALSO explains the Way of White influence in the Ringed City. THAT TOWER IN THE RINGED CITY: The inaccessible tower in the Ringed City has ringed windows which are completely unique to this building. There are no buildings that are shaped like this specific one. I believe this is where Lloyd must've lived. He also MIGHT have a high affinity with Dragons. Eygon of Carim is a knight of the WoW which wears dragon-like armor. You find the magic protection spell within the ASH LAKE. Judicator Giants spawn dragons for some reason. The Dragon ladies in the Archdragon Peak also summon people into the world. And Midir sits atop of the tower that might be his. His dragon affiliation actually makes sense if he was truly the Allfather. NOTE THIS IS SPECULATION. LLOYD THE FRAUD???? Later, before the events of Dark Souls 3, Lloyd was deemed a Fraud and left the way of white. But he was not a fraud. For after he left, look at the state of the Cathedral of the Way of White now. Leaning towards darkness. The Deep. Lloyd (white part of humanity) left the cathedral (humanity) and all that is left now is the deep (the dark side of humanity) Interestingly, the gate in front of the door to Rosaria (Dark-related, because invasion is a part of her thing) is ripped open, possibly symbolizing the seeping of darkness. MY OVERALL THEORY: Lloyd is the creator of humanity. He was able to combine the dark soul, and parts of the fire (souls) to create humanity. Humanity is both the dark soul and soul.
Just a note: You mention the Abyss as the origin of humanity based on Manus being the "Father" of the Abyss around 16:00. But in Japanese, he is "Shin'en no Nushi" (深淵の主 I believe, 主 might use the Chinese reading "Shu", I'm not sure, but "Nushi" is closer to "head of the household", with "Shu" being more like "(one's) Master" or "Lord", see jisho.org/search/%E4%B8%BB), which you could translate as "Patriarch of the Abyss" or "Master of the Abyss". It can only really mean "father" in the sense of "Paterfamilias" or the archaic sense of "Husband", i.e., in accordance with the idea that "the father is the master of the house". It doesn't really imply him being a progenitor. I think they went with "father" because "Master" or "Lord" would make him sound like a tyrant, losing the connotation of him being a guardian or protector of the inhabitants of the Abyss.
Also, the Four Kings are probably four because of the 四天王, Shitenno, or Four Heavenly Kings of Buddhist lore, guardians of the cardinal directions. It's the same reason for why you have e.g. the Elite Four in Pokemon.
Your comments on the ashen one being the back up of the back up and being very weak makes me think that the dark lord ending is canon. Because Joel draws out your "true strength" and it goes well with the fact we're super weak. And as we near the end of the game we gain more sigil until we broke this uber super undead who's strong enough to do whatever it wants with the fire but you bring about a new age that YOU, the strongest undead ever will lead
![Dark Souls Lore ► Gargoyles [The Beginning of the End]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/D8HRsKdF70g/mqdefault.jpg)
![F.HERO Ft. JSPKK x ลำไย ไหทองคำ x M-PEE - ไม่สนิทบิดหมด (Thai Riders Anthem) [Official MV]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/kPJZ0UihBfk/mqdefault.jpg)
![Did Seath marry Gwynevere - Dark Souls Japanese Text (with Lokey) [Dark Souls Lore]](/img/n.gif)
Sucks I found this over 12 hours late, it's 2am here and this is way too interesting to stop even if I have to work in the morning. I guess this is why coffee can come in XL sizes.
The number of sigils = number of thrones blew my mind.
Very nice catch with the 3 + 5 and 4 stuff.
I think the Darksign and the undead curse is a direct, conscious creation of Gwyn as part of the linking of the fire. What exactly was the fire linked to? I think it was linked to the Lord Souls. A hollow is a human missing their Humanity (piece of the dark soul) and Gwyn becomes a hollow after sacrificing his Light Soul to the flame. What I believe the linking of the fire consisted of was Gwyn turning the dark soul into fuel for the First Flame. The Darksign essentially forces the Undead to burn Humanity in the bonfires as fuel for the First Flame. As for the Dark Sigil - I think it’s a reverse-darksign created by Kaathe and friends as a way of doing the inverse and usurping the fire. It also seems to only be something that works on Unkindled, who don’t lose their humanity and go hollow normally.
The Abyss is the result of humanity “going out of control”, or becoming polluted and stagnant spiritually as JSF and others have pointed out (kegare). This is the source of all the stuff like Pus of Man, the Pilgrim Butterflies, the angels, the corvians, the people turning into trees, etc.
The Lords of Cinder don’t come back normally. They’re coming back this time because Lothric let the flame fade even more than usual and so the flame’s “backup system” has activated. The end of the game seems to be at the tail end of this cycle, not a future cycle.
The Abyss Watchers hate the Abyss, no shit that they’d link the fire to maintain the age of fire and prevent the age of dark
Nice, I like this!
Doesn't the ringed knight set say their abyss forged arms and armour were branded by a ring of fire
At times I feel like JSF knows the lore better than Miyazaki himself does lol
Jolly good show
Haha so true!!
Thecookierebel im just glad he's still doing stuff his channel hasn't seen a update in like 9 months if I'm correct. "The Bastards Curse" video blew my mind and opened me up to the rabbit hole that is the deep lore like 4 hour Aegon of Astora videos. I just hope the DS1 remastered dusts off some more of those lore aficionados back in the game lol.
- , - *"The Soul of Cinder is um... fucking stupid."* I just sit smiling because from where I'm seated, the Soul of Cinder knows damned well to stand against me. - Cuz it knows I ain't linking the damn flame!
Been watching the Bloodborne podcasts, very insightful stuff! Had to check this one out to get prepared for the DS1 Remaster!
This a good video! Really lighten stuff. Thanks for the share.
the soul of cinder is shown at the beginning throwing an undead that couldnt beat him onto the first flame as kindling. You fight him because he's designed to test those that would link the fire, because only strong souls can sustain the age and provide proper kindling, so it does make sense. The soul of cinder is a test.
I love it every time JSF is clearly starting to get slightly annoyed when discussing dropped plot threads / retcons in DS3, particularly when starting to talk about the Ringed City. Its rather Cathartic :).
"The Soul of Cinder if f#$* stupid" XD
Haha that bit was great.
the entirety of DS2 was retconned by DS3 lol
Let's take a human who has only the Dark Sigil inside of his body. Without the Darksign, he will simply die and so will his Dark Sigil, so whoever casted the Darksign upon humans was either not aware of the Dark Sigil's properties or they intended the Undead to turn Hollow eventually.
I believe the former is correct. Gwyn wanted humans to serve as manpower in the fight against the dragons, but humans were not strong as the Gods and their descendants (they would die easily), so Gwyn casted the Darksign so humans could serve as immortal soldiers forever. Eventually, Gwyn noticed the undead were turning Hollow and decided to put the Purging Monument in the city so his soldiers could revert their curse and keep serving him.
If we consider that both the Purging Monument and Velka's statue don't have the same powers because of a coincidence, I believe that's why Velka became a rogue deity. Gwyn used her powers to built the Purging Monument and she got mad at him for his obsession and using humans as slaves, not even allowing them to die as honorable soldiers, so she fled from the Ringed City and dedicated her life to the forlorn undead, relieving their curses and probably allying with the Primordial Serpents against Gwyn (guess why Londor's got her miracles and stuff).
I don't believe Velka is a made-up deity, simply because Velka's Talisman in DS1 is made from her hair. If her hair is a physical thing then she's got to be real, and that's my theory about her.
Regarding the Soul of Cinder in the game's intro, I think he's the last one who "linked the fire". The thrones of the 5 lords can be found the the Untended Shrine, which means those 5 had already linked the fire and Gundyr was supposed to be the 6th lord, but he failed on his mission, so the Soul of Cinder rose from the will of the fire and started sacrificing bodies to the first flame to keep it "linked".
My reasoning for the First Flame fighting back with the Soul of Cinder is as follows.
If the natural cycle is fire and dark alternating, but the linking of the flame prevents an age of dark from coming about and making humanity act out because it cant claim its age, then it's not a stretch to think that the First Flame would also act out now that its forced to behave unnaturally. Thus its manifestation prevents anyone from coming close so that it can fade into an age of dark.
Conversely and depending on how much you buy into that you can also see it like this: everyone made to link the fire wanted a continuous age of fire, so whilst the flame possibly fights you off for an age of dark, the soulpower and ash of the burned up linkers employed to fight you off has its own inclination and fights you to make sure you are strong enough to actually link the flame.
This was SO HELPFUL for someone who has never played the games but became deeply interested in the lore (I blame prulds we are the souls reborn, why is it so darn good)!
The most confusing thing was how a dark soul means humanity and humans are undead. Western concept of "dark soul" and undead is inherently evil and would despise the sun and light. The moment he said "undying" as a translation it completely made sense.
Great video. Some thoughts: the Soul of Cinder retains some aspect of the personality of either the Souls of the Ineffable, or the Souls of the Lords of Cinder of the current age / kingdom. It’s not attacking you to defend the flame per se - but you’ve accumulated the souls of 4 things that didn’t want to link the flame for various reasons. That resistance is what drives the SoC to attack you.
Alternately, and perhaps this is connected to the trailer footage, it doesn’t matter if you or the SoC win from a narrative perspective. If you lose, it’ll just use your corpse to fuel the flame. If you win, you’ll use its soul.
Alternatively, consider that it might be more like a force of nature, or a hollow, without a specific intent. Gwyn attacks you at the Kiln in DS1. And yet, if you arrived following Frampt’s coercion, you’re there to link the flame. Why then would he oppose you? Well, he’s not... “all there,” right? Whatever remains of him attacks you almost instinctually. Unless he’s somehow “testing your worth.” Either way, especially given that SoC’s second phase basically IS Gwyn, it’s not too much of a stretch to think they work somewhat similarly.
There may be more clues in the fighting styles of the four forms in phase 1. Off the top of my head, one uses a curved sword, agile movements, and pyromancy - reminds me of Carthus. Another seems to be a faith based build, using miracles and a lance - then a sorcery build, using soul stream and homing soul mass, and then a more straightforward melee style. I’m not sure there’s enough data to link that 1 to 1 to the Lords you slay, but maybe examining the individual spells would yield more?
Finally, once again, this needs research, but maybe the dark sigil is applied to you BECAUSE you’re unkindled. You are ash, seeking embers, as a scabbard receives a sword (coiled sword key-item description). You receive fire and souls from the world. Perhaps the dark sigil then “transmutes” that into dark. It’s a seeping hole in the flesh that oozes darkness - it seems to be drawing the darkness out of you, perhaps using fire and souls as a font for more dark, similar to how the fire keeper channels souls through the darkness within her to yield greater strength in the Ashen One.
Pretty much every phrase I wrote above needs a ton of more research, but, food for thought. If you ever need an extra lore fanatic on one of these videos, I’d love to participate further in the discussion.
30:00 for all the Soul Of Cinder knows you could be there to screw it up. Hes the last line of defense, if you're there to screw it up hes going to try to stop you, if you're there to link it then cool it's getting linked either way and the 2 of you will become one.
Or it can detect your power or the power of the souls you're carrying so he is just compelled to have them so he can offer them to the fire
Using the smae logic in the video, Gwyn should have also just let us walk in and link it
True!
My goodness I wish JSF posted more lore videos. I've just found your channel, really looking forward to more of your content!
Thanks Rorik :)
One more minor note about the symbols in the Road or Sacrifices. It occurs to me that some of them look very similar to the symbol on the Soldering Iron, and one of the Lycanthropes is present within Irithyll dungeon where those are found. The brand prevents estus recovery. Perhaps crucifiction on crosses bearing that symbol was intended to have a similar effect. The lycanthropes appear to have “gone feral,” their “life force is overrun,” and perhaps that symbol has some power to reduce one’s life force. I’m similarly very intrigued by how the HP burning lanterns in the Dungeon work. Other than that, there is a crescent shape that is often overlaid on the crucifixes. Could be a connection to the Darkmoon/Sky over Irithyll, but I’m not sure.
IRL the brand looks like the Peace Symbol, but after some cursory research there doesn’t seem to be any connection. It vaguely looks like the Hunter’s Mark depending on how it’s oriented. This is a stretch, but... blood? The Soldering Iron and Crucifixes could be trying to stifle / drain / manipulate power in the blood? We see blood and fire intermingle in the Abyss Watchers fight... the Hunter’s Mark depicted a person hung upside down, blood rushing to their head (or being drained of blood?)... I’m not sure
Edit: by brand I mean the symbol on the soldering iron
Still one of the best episodes 🙌
this video should be renamed Dark Soul's story 101 :D , all though all things are discussed in great depth. !
hehe!! How did you like the non dark souls background pics format?
It was good , like some of the choices for pictures were great according to discussion and sword of avowal :D waiting for JSF to pronounce him for you :D
Hahaha I like how he understood he needed to help me XD
Old video but always love them! I have a theory about when they first flame was found. In dark souls the idea of the abyss and the idea of the monsters consumes by the abyss. I believe represents a philosophical concept of the brighter the light shines the darker the shadow it cast becomes. “And from the dark they came” in the intro they appear as just hollows the lowest weakest form of beings from the dark, the dark cast by the first flame.
Also to add humanity is represented in dark souls 3 not only mechanically through embers but through lore. Embers being what’s left of all the burned humanity over the ages
(Sorry commenting as I watch lol) the soul of cinder has a purpose and concept of why it does what it does, it’s behaving as Gwyn did, it is the final stand before the flame is to be kindles either by taking all the souls of who comes to it, or by you taking it and linking the fire. Looking forward to listening to more ds3 lore to see if these ideas are talked about further!
Another great video Even tho I m years late. What I love is that obviously we all like the FromSoft games but yet U guys do point out the lore inconsistencies or weak plot points....good stuff as always
Manus, Daddy of Hugh Manity. He got Artorious to call him Daddy with that big hand of his.
I personally believe that the ashen one is your character from Dark Souls 1
Final comment, I promise, the cross on the man-grub staff appears to have a similar design to that of the Russian Orthodox Church. There are also other symbols, such as the Double Headed Black Eagle found on shields, that have real world significance. Not to mention the Fleur du Lis, quatrefoils, etc. So, there may be clues lurking in crosses in general!
I promise to read all of your comments if you provide me with snacks and coffee.
Sinclair Lore if you can explain WTF the darklurker is I’ll buy both you and JSF a pizza
Put your lore caps on everyone! I'ma earn myself some pizza! *cue science montage*
Here are other traslations from the Miyazaki interview than said what he talk that an ash is something than heir the past
the darksign on the undead don't seal the dark souls so it can't get stronger is the opposite the seal removing the humanity from the undead every he dies making it weaker and synfoning it to the bonfire and prolonging the first flame that but the fire needs stronger fuels
If the Soul of Cinder is an amalgamation of all those whom linked the fire, why aren't the lords of cinder fused with it as well?
They are like gwyn the fire burned thier power but kept thier essence
I wonder if the eight Pygmy lords/dark sigils has to do with the fact that the dark soul has a link to immortality (the undead curse) or perhaps the intentions of the lords to create an everlasting age of dark, as eight turned on its side is an infinity
Deep!
Sinclair Lore also...what's going on with Morne? Through all of the videos I've watched and through all of the discussions I've read, no one ever mentions morne.
I dunno, he needs to gg!
Sinclair Lore but he's so important! He indicates outright that Caitha is the main deity worshipped in Carim and that completely contradicts the assertions made by JSF that I've encountered and I CANT EXIST IN A WORLD WITHOUT PROPERLY CONSIDERED LORE!
(Sorry, I got a bit carried away there. But seriously, the man is apparently a walking gargoyle that is also an apostle. He's like the Arnold Schwartzenneger of Dark souls)
I dunno... JSF needs to GG! Oh buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuurn!
Btw, I recently recorded a second podcast with Bob on Caitha and Velka and stuff. It's going to take a while to put out because I have to finish editing current lores, but hopefully it helps you sleep at night when it comes out!
Sword is probably from the ringed city but at some point was stolen/caried out of there and taken to the londor. it's relic because ringed city itself is half myth half forgotten and only known sword of such properties is in londor.
Also soul of cinder is hostile probably because it's not really sentient as it is force of nature created by endless cycles
I recommend you make a video of my expansive theory. Because I don't really have a good editing software.
Plus it would be really cool to see what you guys think about it!
Anyway here is how I see the whole humanity jizz. I will also be covering my theory on the origins of humanity as well. WARNING, THIS IS KIND OF LONG...
THE RULES OF HUMANITY
Humanity is separated into two segments. The Ring and the Darkness.
If we look at the image of humanity sprites, it looks like black humanoid shape being concealed by a white ring.
The Black Part is a shard of the Dark Soul, possibly even abyss.
And the White Part is Soul.
If your soul is fully black you turn into a beast, a beast that acts solely through addiction, want, greed, and animalistic means. Which is why most dark things are represented by a hand. Dark Hand, Monstrosity of Sin have hands all over them, Manus's giant anus hand, and his name literally means HAND in latin.
If you are "shackled" with the White Part of Humanity, you are controlled, you have purpose, and you are humanoid. The white part of humanity gives people PURPOSE. So without it you are purposeless and prone to beasthood or hollowing.
If you lose the white part of humanity, you will turn into a beast. HOWEVER, Hollows, are different. Because they DO lose the white part of humanity, meaning they are only dark BUT the darksign prevents them from turning into beasts. This results in them losing their minds instead and wandering around purposelessly.
Speaking of Manus, take a look at his soul icon. It shows a humanity sprite, with the black part going haywire and SEEPING OUT. This explains why manus looks like a beast despite being described as a "primeval human." Because the black part (beast/hollow) is ripping through the white part (Purpose/Life).
Also note that Primeval can mean two things, ancient or animalistic and acting based on instinct.
Manus was probably not branded because otherwise, he wouldn't be able to turn into a beast.
tldr:
Dark + White Ring (souls) = Humanity
Humanity - White Ring = Beast (Manus, Harald Knights, Monstrosity of Sin)
Branded Humanity - White Ring = hollow
ANYWAYS...
You cannot be human, without the white rim.
For the white rim allows you to have purpose and meaning.
People who are deeply religious have a lot of purpose, and thus clerics have a ton of Humanity.
Funnily enough, the main religion in Dark Souls is called "The Way of White" which is symbolized by a white ring.
This white ring is reminiscent of the white rim around the dark side of a humanity sprite.
Interestingly enough, the Way of White is affiliated with the Art of Summoning.
And if you look at a white sign soapstone the letters have a white rim, and a are black inside.
[REMEMBER THIS]
People who don't have much purpose eventually turn into hollows.
However, this is because humanity was branded with the darksign.
If Humanity wasn't branded, they would turn into beasts.
HOW GEAL CONFIRMS MY THEORY:
Gael is undead in the first phase acting completely ecstatic and crazy.
In the second phase he is more controlled, and a human. Lightning begins to appear. This explains why he uses Way of White Corona (representing the white part of humanity) and doesn't use it in the third phase.
The third Phase he stops using the way of white corona, and dark soul starts to seep out of his body. This represents the beast. As he begins to act more ecstatic and crazy. Lighting goes about everywhere.
THE RINGED CITY:
Well, you know how I told you to remember all of that junk earlier, well this is why!
The Ringed City is a RING with DARK CREATURES contained WITHIN the ring.
It's BASICALLY humanity. The white rim of souls, containing the darkness inside.
Clerics of the Way of White spawn in the Ringed City.
Also, Judicator Giants can SUMMON people for assistance, and wear cleric looking clothing.
They are also judges, and were described as being grey giants in the concept art reveal.
Judges connect to Lloyd, and the name Lloyd means grey.
Lloyd was the archbishop of the way of white.
This proves that the way of white has a stronger influence in the lore than meets the eye. But first lets talk about MIMICS!
MIMICS:
Lets take a look at Mimics, they are chests which turn into monsters. They symbolize Avarice (greed) and are put to sleep by Lloyd's Talismans.
Does anything ring a bell here? Let's rephrase it.
Well Mimics act based on instinct and greed. They are also found in ALL dark related areas in Dark Souls 3. ESPECIALLY in Irrythil Dungeon and the Profaned Capital, which is connected to profanity which is connected to the dark. So basically, they represent the BLACK part of humanity. The beast, and the hollow (if branded by darksign preventing beasthood)
Lloyd's talismans come from the Way of White, which is symbolized by a White Rim in which their clerics are full humans and are filled with humanity, and firekeeper (filled with humanity) are affiliated with the Way of White. Lloyd's talismans represent the WHITE part of humanity.
Coincidence? I think not!
ALLFATHER LLOYD:
Lloyd was probably the creator of humanity. Not only is his title Allfather, he is connected to SOULS. Because the white part of humanity is most likely soul, as well as most of the Way of White spells which create gaseous matter (Force, Magic Protection, Wrath of Gods, Way of White Corona, etc). He was the Archbishop which is greatly high ranking. This ALSO explains the Way of White influence in the Ringed City.
THAT TOWER IN THE RINGED CITY:
The inaccessible tower in the Ringed City has ringed windows which are completely unique to this building. There are no buildings that are shaped like this specific one. I believe this is where Lloyd must've lived.
He also MIGHT have a high affinity with Dragons.
Eygon of Carim is a knight of the WoW which wears dragon-like armor.
You find the magic protection spell within the ASH LAKE.
Judicator Giants spawn dragons for some reason.
The Dragon ladies in the Archdragon Peak also summon people into the world.
And Midir sits atop of the tower that might be his.
His dragon affiliation actually makes sense if he was truly the Allfather.
NOTE THIS IS SPECULATION.
LLOYD THE FRAUD????
Later, before the events of Dark Souls 3, Lloyd was deemed a Fraud and left the way of white.
But he was not a fraud.
For after he left, look at the state of the Cathedral of the Way of White now.
Leaning towards darkness. The Deep.
Lloyd (white part of humanity) left the cathedral (humanity) and all that is left now is the deep (the dark side of humanity)
Interestingly, the gate in front of the door to Rosaria (Dark-related, because invasion is a part of her thing) is ripped open, possibly symbolizing the seeping of darkness.
MY OVERALL THEORY:
Lloyd is the creator of humanity. He was able to combine the dark soul, and parts of the fire (souls) to create humanity.
Humanity is both the dark soul and soul.
Just a note: You mention the Abyss as the origin of humanity based on Manus being the "Father" of the Abyss around 16:00. But in Japanese, he is "Shin'en no Nushi" (深淵の主 I believe, 主 might use the Chinese reading "Shu", I'm not sure, but "Nushi" is closer to "head of the household", with "Shu" being more like "(one's) Master" or "Lord", see jisho.org/search/%E4%B8%BB), which you could translate as "Patriarch of the Abyss" or "Master of the Abyss". It can only really mean "father" in the sense of "Paterfamilias" or the archaic sense of "Husband", i.e., in accordance with the idea that "the father is the master of the house". It doesn't really imply him being a progenitor. I think they went with "father" because "Master" or "Lord" would make him sound like a tyrant, losing the connotation of him being a guardian or protector of the inhabitants of the Abyss.
Also, the Four Kings are probably four because of the 四天王, Shitenno, or Four Heavenly Kings of Buddhist lore, guardians of the cardinal directions. It's the same reason for why you have e.g. the Elite Four in Pokemon.
great video!
Eek! I always have a heart attack when I hear my name. X.X
Thankfully my name wasn’t followed by a horrible theory this time, whew...
Your comments on the ashen one being the back up of the back up and being very weak makes me think that the dark lord ending is canon. Because Joel draws out your "true strength" and it goes well with the fact we're super weak. And as we near the end of the game we gain more sigil until we broke this uber super undead who's strong enough to do whatever it wants with the fire but you bring about a new age that YOU, the strongest undead ever will lead