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Fitting Tortoise Point Motors at Chadwick Model Railway | 22.
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 18 ส.ค. 2024
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This is brilliant, thanks loads Charlie for taking the time to make this. I've always been somewhat intimidated by tortoise motors for some reason, but this has given me some confidence to give them a go.
I’m so pleased that you found the video useful. Regards Charlie
Thanks Charlie - I hadn't realised that you had to take the points spring out. It's working splendidly now,
Every day’s a school day.
Regards Charlie
I am putting in my first Tortoises on my AT&SF RR. I found your video on how to do the installation to be exceptional, both in straightforwardness and thoroughness! Thank you!
I’m so pleased that you found it useful.
Hi Charlie... I embarked on my first model railway layout ever (even if I am 45)... and thanks to your videos I decided to purchase Tortoise point motors... really happy with them... I fully agree with you... more realistic... and easy to mount and wire!
Not easy to find them in Italy (so I bought them online from a US shop...)... but they are great!
Thank you Charlie for your videos.... inpiring and very useful!
I’m so pleased that you found the video useful.
Charlie, It is a toss up between tortoise and servos. Servos can mount in a piece of extruded aluminum channel from the home center and drilled to mount. But they have no relays for position feedback. Servos can be driven with an Arduino micro pc. Tortoise may be more straight forward with an accessory decoder hooked to the cab bus and addressed.
I am not quiet at that step yet.
Bob S
Thanks Bob, I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it. I do hope that you have a great Christmas, and a successful 2020, regards Charlie.
I do enjoy coming back to your vids Charlie; I am in the thick of installing 12 DCC Concept motors from under the baseboard and getting them aligned and the wire through the tie bar is literally neck-breaking. I also note how the Tortouse are alot quieter than Cobalts, and thats with no foam pad installed. The only upside is the Cobalts are less deep so fit my layout. I would put the Cobalts half way between the Fulgurex I removed and these tortoise motors. I am also testing an alternitve to dropping the actuator bar from above, with the right angle return on the tie bar and a 0.9mm hole drilled verticall through the motor actuator bar, then no cutting is required. It all makes fitting Hornby surface mount motors I have elsewhere a walk in the park!
An excellent insight into your progress.
Regards Charlie
It's been a long while since I was at Aly Paly, knew it well, used to live down the hill in Wood Green, now I'm up a hill in Denver.
I'd offer to correct your statement about the motors turning off when they reach the end of travel, they do not, that's why they use the term stall motor - the motors are very low current and just stall at end of travel using a few milliamps. That has the advantage of keeping the points pressed against the stock rails rather than easing back slightly if the power was shut off.
There are a few tricks with Tortoises but I haven't found the offset holes in the template to be of much use, the wire sticks up too high at one end of travel. You can mount the Tortoise horizontally (without the horizontal mount kit), if you have a vertical surface close by, then use a longer piano wire, with an offset, to move the points. This is sometimes useful when there is an obstruction under the baseboard at the point you would normally want to mount the Tortoise.
If you add the horizontal mount kit you can simultaneously switch a pair of points - useful for crossover arrangements.
I'm enjoying the videos, keep up the good work! Cheers!
Hi Hirsutus,
I’m so pleased that you enjoyed the video.
The Model Railway Show at Ally Pally isn’t what it was! The pitch price even keeps brands like Squires away.
I am really impressed with these motors, and as you say, the spring pressure that remains after the point has changed is reassuring strong.
Regards Charlie
Thanks Charlie you always explain things to make it easy to understand
Thanks David.
Hi Charlie
I’m pleased to report that my snap connectors on my tortoise point motors are working beautifully. I’ve fitted Three and find them an easier option than soldering to the motor with the possibility of damaging it. Becomes expensive though if you have a lot of them as you do. Cheers.
Good to hear that Mike, but how much were they?
@@ChadwickModelRailway They are £5.17 each but then there’s vat and postage which bumps it up a bit but for me it’s the way to go. I bought them from Coastal DCC in Ipswich.
I mentioned to you once that I’d ripped my old layout up and started again after seeing your videos. Well it’s coming along and I’ve loosely based it on Durham station. I have to include a DC circuit so that I can exercise my 50 plus DC locos 🤔 Happy days. Cheers.
At least here in the USA the 10 pole connector block sells at a lower price than the 8 pole. One little way to save some money if you decide to use the connector blocks!
They are just too expensive here in the UK to even consider.
I recently endured a comedy of errors while installing a turntable with attached sheds, & hope you may cover the pitfalls to avoid in one of your videos. The things I discovered are: If one of the sheds is directly in line with the entry rail, then that shed becomes unusable, as for instance, if you park an engine in that shed, then turn the turntable to another shed & bring out another engine, when you turn the turntable back to the entry rail & move off, the engine which you just parked in the shed will come out again, chasing the one you now want to use; Secondly, the space in my shed, and probably others, is just long enough to accommodate an engine with tender, so adding buffers to the end of the rails within the shed can impede the engine from being able to enter the shed completely & allow the doors to close.
Some interesting reading Arthur but sadly I have no plans for a turntable video. Steam just isn’t my thing to model but in real life, I love them.
great explanation - after watching the video - bought one - absolutely delighted with it
They are the best Roger, great choice.
iv'e used these, on a major h o ( half -o ), scale layout,, they work well, are versatile, and help with signal swiching, frog, too,, my next install, will have the elec.,, contacts facing the front valance, ( horizontal mount, ), so i can wire easily, using a wire extension, belcrank rig..
Hi Gene, many thanks for the update on your layout.
Regards Charlie
Interesting video. Many thanks. I'll have to stick with SEEPS due to space restrictions between the layout proper and fiddle yard below, bot these would have been my choice, if I had one!
I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it. Regards Charlie
Great video, as usual, Charlie! I can think of no reason why anyone wanting as much realism as possible on their layout wouldn't use slow acting point motors rather than solenoids.
I only totally agree.
Completly agree. Coming back to the hobby after a >20 year absence (and a career in tech and electronics) I am very pleased that i can use a lot of what I learned in my job and apply it to all kinds of areas such as DCC control and many gadgets that add so much realism to a layout. The snap action of capacitor discharge motors (and the buzz noise) was always a little out of realism for me - this servo motor approach is so much better. Shame about the price of these though - on a quick search they seem to be fairly hard to find in the uK and on ebay at least very expensive. Did the makers go out of business or something?
@@alanmusicman3385 Thanks for your reply. I've used some of the cheap servos that are available at most electronics shops and all over Ebay and used an Arduino Uno to control them from simple momentary pushbuttons. The inspiration came from thenscaler.com
Very clear guide most helpful.
So glad that you enjoyed enjoyed it Stuart.
Hi Charlie, great video as always.... I've decided to go with Esu SwitchPilot... easy to use, normal servo from any rc shop will do the job and easier to connect act as a slow motion motor but can be controlled either via the remote DCC station or from a simple switch....
That sounds like a well thought out plan.
I imagine that you will need to remove the point springs.
@@ChadwickModelRailway yes, exactly, and furthermore that system is capable of setting start point/end point and speed which I believe is a great plus...
Hi folks. To be clear I know a very small fraction of what Charlie does about this hobby. But I'd like to put in a bit of a word for Cobalt - no connection with them of any sort. The reason they are noiser, I think, is that they use two stage gearing. This probably gives a slower rate of throw. You may or may not like that. One possible solution is not to directly clamp them to a resonant baseboard. Using small rubber washers both above and below the fixing point might help a lot. Certainly something I will be trying. It's also worth comparing the quality of the documentation and the facilities offered by each manufacturer. To Charlie noise was the most important - his hearing may be better than mine! They do at least seem to be sourced by a British supplier. BobUK
Interesting points Bob, many thanks.
DO NOT try to trim the protruding wire with wire cutters. It is what we in the USA call music wire and it is harden. Use a cut off disk in a motor tool. Wiring diagrams come with the Tortoise, if my memory is any good. You can either use a reversing DPDT switch or use two power sources with a SPDT switch. At my local surplus electronic store, I can get wall transformers cheap! They are similar to your cell phone charger that plugs into an wall outlet. They have input and output voltages printed on the case. 12volt 500ma or 1 amp will run a lot of machines. Tortoises have a stall current of .015 amp and run on .004 amp.
Good advice David, many thanks
Not sure if this helps but I noticed you can buy piano wire at B&Qs I think it was 5 or 8 metre coils they have quite a few gauges as well. The last place I would have looked for it!
Blimey, that’s a lot of 4 inch lengths for points.
Interesting might give fitting them ago I acquired 3 in a job lot one has the wire and guide missing....thanks for showing .....fred
Hi Fred, I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it. I love tortoise motors. Good luck with your project.
Regards Charlie
Personally I prefer to use solenoids on my layouts. And most if not all that got them fitted. I like their simplisity and ease of use mostly, not to mention that they are much cheaper than tortoise ones XD And if fitted with a capacitor dischagre unit they dont buzz, only the short sharp clack of the movement.
Hi, I’m pleased that there is such a choice so everyone can buy what suits them. When I used solenoids, I found SEEPs to be more reliable for switching frogs. Regards Charlie
@@ChadwickModelRailway Yeah I am using SEEPS on my 009 layout, not with the switch though just the normal PM1s. My 00 layout uses Peco PL10s.
Thanks for another great video. That sliding adjustment bar thing to alter the length of the throw, can that be fixed securely somehow once you're happy with the throw? I imagine it might move over time with the wire levering through it over time and perhaps bumps on an exhibition layout?
Hi Capt S, the part is called the fulcrum. When in the required position it doesn’t need locking, it’s quite stiff and stays in position.
Regards Charlie
@@ChadwickModelRailway The name escaped me, thank you. Great content by the way, I've been procrastinating on building a layout for many years, and I'm not getting any younger so time to extract the digit. Finding your videos very helpful, great detail and delivered at good pace without distractions about what coffee bean you're drinking or events of your life this week. Really appreciate the honesty in your videos and sharing the lessons learned. Reassuring for a beginner that it's very much a journey. Thanks again.
As others have said an excellent video, useful as I'm planning my return to railway modelling
The sooner, the better Keith. Don't keep putting it off. Regards Charlie
Great video Charlie. The best I've seen. Thanks very much. Bill G Linwood Kansas, USA
I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it Bill.
Excellent part 2. Will defiantly think about using these when I build my main layout...Simon
Hi Simon, They really are that much better. Glad that you liked it. Regards Charlie
Very good explanation! Thank you!!!
I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it.
Seem to quieter than the cobalts I have. Nice demonstration.Richard
Hi Richard, I’m glad that you enjoyed it. Regards Charlie
Thanks Charlie, 2 great videos, nicely presented and clearly explained :). Ian
Hi Ian,
I’m so glad that you enjoyed it.
Regards Charlie
batauxrail I had a small problem the contacts need cleaning now and then there are four screws under the green covering paper remove the 4 screws take of plate photo working parts remove gears clean contacts return parts same as photo then it will work fine again but you have stuffed up the warranty but you will have a point that works.
Re your 8 pin connector if you look on one of the faces you will see a code and name if you put that into your search engine you will find the main supplier where you can buy them in bulk depending on how many for about £2.30. the best price I have found for the Tortoise varies between Coastal DCC or DCC Supplies
Neil
Thanks for the tip Neil, I’ll check them out.
Regards Charlie
Would it be easier to drill down with a fine drill to mark the hole and slide a metal plate under the point to protect it and drill back up from underneath the board so you wouldn’t need to remove the point
That’s a very interesting alternative Robert. Many thanks, regard, Charlie
Hi Charlie, excellent video as usual, were you a TV presenter in a previous life???? One suggestion I would add is to solder wires to the tortoise before installing it under the layout and connect them to a chocolate block connector. This is useful as the polarity of tabs 2&3 (or 6&7) on the tortoise will change in relation to the orientation of the Tortoise (i.e whether it is facing the toe or heel. It is then easy to switch the trackfeed wires over in the event of a short rather than having to re-solder
Hi Simon, I’m so pleased that you enjoyed the video. That’s a great point regarding soldering to a chocolate block break-out board. Because I’m installing mine prior to fixing down this board, it wasn’t obvious (until now)! I’ll certainly mention this on Friday’s video. Thanks again. Regards Charlie
Another excellent video Charlie. Looking at the number of cross timbers/batons beneath my baseboards I don't think it would be possible to up grade as the dimensions of the tortoise's look larger than my PM1 Seep's. Oh well I'll just have to put up with the sound of gun fire! Regards John.
Hi John, well perhaps they might play a roll on your next layout! Regards Charlie
Evening. Can you put extra long piano wire in? I need to pass 10mm of base board and then 40mm of foam 😅
Yes, I trim my lengths of piano wire to suit. Regards, Charlie.
Opps ... surely it will take as many amps as it needs if u put low volts in as in v=ir and variations on it if u put a car battery on it can give out enough amps to start an car
Yes it will draw what it needs until it reaches its stall current.
Regards Charlie
Great video.Thanks for the how to info.Cheers Gary
Hi Gary, I’m so glad that you enjoyed it. Regards Charlie
so very useful, thank you charlie
I'm so pleased that you found it useful, they are just brilliant.
I’m 12 and the only problem with this hobby is the price
Yes Dylan, that’s a very good point.
Excellent presentation!!Have you seen or tried Rapido Trains Rail-Crew switch control with working targets? I have 6 on my layout and I'll testify that they both work and look great! Installation is easy - for me, at least. Also, while the action is somewhat 'snappy' the fine-scale switch stand and synchronized target motion provides a real wow factor. Also again, the small cylindrical size (1inch diameter x 1inch height) make its topside installation feature ideal for 'established' layouts where existing or additional turnouts are considered. ...It's a real 'good-ole' Canadian innovation.
I’m so pleased that you enjoyed the video Fred. No I haven’t seen your switch device but I’ll certainly look into it.
Regards Charlie
Indeed Charlie.Rapido Trains (a small but mighty Canadian company with many fine products) has a (17 minute) video on u-tube promoting this (their) product and its installation. It is very entertaining, humorous and still quite informative. And yes, these guys are the genuine article - innovative, very hard working and successful in what I perceive as an often impatient and unforgiving marketplace. Yet they exemplify the very essence of this hobby: having FUN!That said and as I've already mentioned, your video remains a thoroughly informative presentation on the proper installation of a product with an already popular and wide acceptance and you've done it in a wonderfully straightforward manner - no shenanigans.Keep up the fine work and having FUN ...life's too short for anything else.cheersFred
How should you clip the excess spring wire protruding though the tie bar. Can you trim it flush with the tie bar, or does it need to be bent then trimmed off to prevent loosing contact with the tie Bar?
It’s best to mark it Robert, then remove it, then cut it with a disc cutter, then refit it, and then hope you got it right! Regards, Charlie
Charlie, you didn't say which dealer supplies the replacement spring wire for the motors? Keith
I just did a search on eBay mate. Regards Charlie
Charlie, your videos should come with a government health warning. "Charlie Bishop's videos are highly addictive, don't start watching" 😜
You clearly need to limit your screen time. Regards Charlie
Cobalt & tortoise, no doubt are good and so they would want to be.
I use seep pm1 and find them cheap & reliable along with the peco . Time will tell how good these motors are ,as solanoids have stood the test of time.
I also have 6 cobalts ,& swear by Seep
Personal choice.
Hi Greg,
I think that all motors are reliable and it’s only their sound that makes people choose the slow action alternative.
My SEEPs have never let me down either.
Hopefully you have subscribed so that I can keep you amused with my layout’s progress.
Regards Charlie.
Will do now Charlie .
Your layout looks great too.
Kind regards Greg.
Thanks Greg, much appreciated.
Good info thx Charlie
You’re welcome Adam.
Maybe i didn't explain myself very clearly.The cross over has 4 points at one end then another 4 at the other end.All has 3 lines run inline with each other and can be connected to each other.The outer line on the right can cut right a cross diamond crossing via the middle line onto the far left one. As the middle line is still set up as the fast track via a station avoiding platforms This is like a x y set up for stations,marshalling yards,shunting etc.If i could load a photo then your see my problem in detail.The company i gain these very detail points are from "MARCWAY"POINTWORK ..In the recent issue of Railway Modeller,page 51a, these are made to order only maybe this will give yourself a insight of what i am trying to say.Which Peco, Hornby, Bachmann do not produce. Its made to order owing to its length. At the moment i use Peco point motors on all sections.Took quite awhile to sort out wires everywhere. Colbolt are far too expensive,once again not much room underneath the board.All run on DC supply away from the main buzy wire feed,All points have their own,So does all my lighting and extra's crossing,signals,swing bridge.All have their own supplies,so fault finding is easy/Thank you Carol
Hi Carol, I think I have an understanding of your track layout. However, Cobalt and Tortoise are about the same price so if you find Cobalt too expensive, Tortoise will be also. Furthermore, Tortoise are slightly bigger. I’m unsure of your layout size and scale. Regards Charlie
Hi Charlie,
Which one is better or preferable; point motors or solenoid-type points? One disadvantage of the solenoid type is that apparently if you keep the button/switch activated for more than a second, it will (as per the manufacturer) burn out! Whats your advice?
Thanks,
Ganny
Motors are my choice every time Ganny.
@@ChadwickModelRailway Thanks. Unfortunately, my initial purchase included 17 Atlas points with built-in solenoid mechanisms complete with change over buttons! Since I'm stuck with them, I may as well install them till they last.
Forgot to mention... mu current base board has no access from below, which drastically limits my options. Guess I'll wait for Version 2 before I make any changes!
Very information indeed thank you.Just one simple question.Is there a major problem fitting 3 on a three way turn out.As it seems not to much room,as they will be so close together.Which i do have quite a few on ones of my layouts.
Hi Carol, great question. You only need two point motors on a three way turn out and yes there is room. I’ll explain better on this Friday’s video. Regards Charlie
Este tipo de motor tiene final de carrera
No, it has a stall motor. Regards Charlie
Hi Charlie, on this video you use a 6.5mm drill bit for the point hole but on another video I’m sure you used a 10mm hole, which do you recommend the 10?
Yes the 10mm is much better and allows for greater adjustment.
As I recall Tortoise recommend the 6mm.
Great video Charlie, what made you choose Tortoise over Cobalt point motors?
Hi, I found that the Tortoise were quieter and that was the deciding factor. Regards Charlie
They're certainly wonderous devices, but the thought of having to sell a kidney or two to purchase enough for my layout rather puts me off. As i handmake all my turnouts, slips, etc. I've gone down the Arduino/servo option which, while a bit more complicated to set up, proves to be a much cheaper and flexible option. I certainly wouldn't go anywhere near solenoid point motors: far too violent.
I did buy a bunch of Fulgurex slow action motors years ago and although I enjoyed a bit of good old-fashioned analog engineering, they were rather noisy.
Thanks Novak, for a look into your preferences. Regards, Charlie
Wow £16+ for one motor, and £5 for the drilling template! The drilling template should come with them, they could offer two basic types, one as s starter set with the template included were from there on you can buy others without the template.
There is a paper template with the instructions but you only buy the plastic one once.
Once you cut out the paper template, use it to make yourself a more substantial one out of styrene or thin metal.😊
Hi Charlie, would you know if the Roco Z21 accessory decoder would operate the Tortoise points? I have a Z21 controller. Many thanks for your excellent informative videos.
Sorry David, I've no idea. Can you ask Roco?
I use these motors too...But also I use them to operate semaphore signals. ive hidden them in signal boxes and other buildings.
I use a very fine fishing line and a lead fishing weight in the signal counter balance which i reversed to pull the signal back to danger....Would it be possible to wire up a point motor and the signal motor together so that the signal pulled clear only when the points are set as a clear road? as in one switch to throw the point and clear the signal?
That sound feasible Allan, give it a go.
Very informative, does it work with dcc?
Sorry, 12v DC
Need to make a test jig with the blue connector
Useful thought Adrian.
@@ChadwickModelRailway maybe wire 1 and 8 to a DPDT switch (to change polarity) and connect to a 9V battery. Nice easy test jig to drive the motor back and forth.
Thanks Charlie. Shame I didn’t see you at Ally Pally, would have been nice to say hi! Anyway, another great video. Enjoy the Easter weekend!
Hi Tase, Glad that you liked it. Have a great Easter. Regards Charlie
Charlie what do you do with the fulcrum wire that protrudes through the switch points? Just trim it off flush?
Yes just a tiny bit proud.
@@ChadwickModelRailway the wire that goes though the switch from the tortoice, just trim it off? Was your response "protruding"?
Yes, the wire comes from the soliend up through the fulcum bracket, then through the hole in your point's switch rail. Cut it off with a tiny bit showing through the switch rail.
@@ChadwickModelRailway Thank you Charlie..
I cant get over the bulk of each motor for what they do. The old peco solenoid type are tiny in compairson if old tech.
Somebody should make flatter motors.
There are smaller alternatives available, however it doesn’t make them better or more reliable. Regards Charlie
For that much outlay they should've given you the template.
I did ask!
is it possible to piggyback two tortoise switches on a NCE 5240151 Switch-8 Mark2 Stationary Decoder,,,,I want to use two turnouts to create a crossover and I want to open and close at the same time
Sorry Nina but I really have no idea.
Asking uncle Google must be your best option.
They should have given you the template fro free. (:
I totally agree!
The members of my local club DrejeSKIVEn build the point-motors themselves. They use a motor from HobbyKing.com the Turnigy TG9n Eco Servo 1.5 kg/0.10 sec 10.1 g at 2,25 € og 2,70 £. They build the electronics from bit from old PC's, but you can of corse buythat too, cost: aproc. 3.50 £. I don't know, if it's something you want to try out. The guy a talked to about it said that sometimes it couls be a bit tricky to get the walking distance correct. Anyway it's some what cheaper as you tortoises are.
Thanks Steen, a very interesting option.
I was about to write something similar : For my next layout (and first one for 30 years!) I consider just using cheap remote controlled aircraft servos and some thin wire with a few bends in it for linkage. They can be had for 1 pound each or something like that, and there is nothing wrong with the quality.Of course the signals and voltages are different, but for those who do some electronics and embedded, it's an easy conversion.
@@skuula Where do you buy your motors? The are somewhat cheaper, than the ones, I found at HobbyKing.
@@MrSteen12 Aliexpress, Banggood, etc.
@@skuula Thank you.
They cost £240 for 12 now in 2024 😮
That’s shocking. Regards Charlie.
A good display video but in all fairness,shows none of the frustration of having to work underneath your layout
I didn’t realise you just wanted me to get frustrated. In all honesty it’s far easier to film on its back, I can’t get a video camera under the boards.
@@ChadwickModelRailway Mate it was just said as tongue in cheek, I'm presently having to replace several old DCC Cobalt analogue units,I'd kill to be able to turn mine over and work as a "normal person", no offence just envy
I probably should rephrase this as "the frustration of working under neath a layout, not specifically yours, my apologies
No probs mate.
Question;- Why pay so much for a Tortoise, when you can buy servos for only a Pound...... Your boxful cost you about £200.00 you said....... You could have had a dozen servo's for only £12.00.........
This is not a criticism, it's a genuine question, as I'm just getting back into the hobby and a lot of this stuff is new to me..... :-)
Are you using servos?
@@ChadwickModelRailway ;- Thanks for the reply;- Well, I was planning to use servos as they are so cheap now. I'm using Lenz DCC, and I was hoping to run it all with iTrains, TrainController or similar, but I'm not sure if Lenz even do a unit to run the servos. Megapoints seem to do controllers for servos, but I don't know if they will run off a PC....?
You need to do thorough research on this one.