It needs to be stressed that your aiming point for an engine out landing should not be at the end of the runway like normal landings. Aim ⅓ or ½ way up the runway in case you misjudge your airspeed. You can always slip if needed. My instructor taught me to do an engine out landing every third landing. Practice prevents panic.
With the engine out and after obtaining best glide, your aiming point is basically whatever part of the ground is coming straight at you (not moving left/right/up or down). I always teach the students this scenario and we practice it, after the student really understands the glide ratio and how far they can go from any given altitude agl. It's also great to practice it in a sim, even if that sim is Google Earth and you're flying the F-16. With that foreknowledge the emergency pilot can get real refined about how to use the flaps, slips, and turning the right number of times so their circle intersects the ground on the ideal course to the "field."
Back in the winter of 72-73 when I was a student, my instructor did engine-outs literally every lesson, and sometimes several in a lesson. It used to drive me nuts, and when I complained, he calmly said, “someday you’ll thank me, Cary”. Well, in the intervening 51+ years, I’ve had two occasions to thank him for those repetitive and frankly annoying practices. The first was a temporary engine failure in the clouds in a Mooney 231, which turned out to be impact ice that clogged the air intake. I immediately declared an emergency and asked for vectors to Pueblo, CO, which was “maybe” doable according to the DME, but the weather at PUB was about 300 and a mile, so it would have been a frightening experience-both ILS runways were essentially perpendicular to our route of flight (this was before GPS RNAV). Fortunately after losing about 1600’, I got the engine going again by pulling the manual knob for alternate air. The second was a total engine failure at low altitude-my new-to-me Cessna P172D had thrown a rod through the top of the engine case. I was only at about 1000’ AGL, so although I declared an emergency, it was on the nearest airport Unicom frequency-I was too busy flying the airplane to change frequencies. Without going into more detail, I did everything the way I was trained many years before, cleared some power lines, and landed in a field, with no damage to the airplane-best soft field landing I’d ever made without power. My current instructor is a task master, so that every engine out scenario during flight reviews has been to a landing. He’s picked a place, he knows my ability, and he knows my airplane, too. So far, I’ve always found the place he picked and made a suitable landing there. A couple of times, it meant a full flap slip to avoid overshooting, and a couple of other times, it meant pulling the prop knob all the way out to make the prop coarse to reduce drag. You’re definitely right-knowing how without practicing how isn’t good enough. Both my original instructor 51 years ago and my current instructor teach to immediately head for the intended place to land-no fiddling around trying to get things going. If that’s on downwind, immediately turn toward the runway. If that’s a ranch strip, immediately turn toward it. If that’s a field, turn toward it. Aviate, navigate, communicate. No wasting time flying the radio.
I was doing a glider add-on and one of the debrief points the DPE made was that he could tell who the jet guys were because we all aimed to use all the runway; he was making the same point about wanting margin for the inadequate side not just the braking side. Though with the gliders you can push spoiler in to float a little more. As for airspeed, hopefully you can get an AOA. Best no wind glide is an AOA, not an airspeed. Now, having said this, some platforms have additional considerations like having adequate airflow to run a RAT (ram air turbine for hydraulics and/or electrics) or for preserving energy to squat a jet and eject. These platforms may fly engine out significantly faster than airframe best glide and actually need to aim well shy of landing as they’re going to float a lot. Consider the Space Shuttle, it landed engine out, and it had its aim point well shy of the runway. As for normal landings, why aim at the end of the runway except for truly short field? Same concern for margins applies. And you could have an added element in larger aircraft with judging seat position and associated sight line versus wheel touchdown point being rather far apart.
The best is she is okay! I think she did a incredible job at her current stage in training. She GREW so much as a pilot and can you imagine the awesome critical experience she gained..... WOW!
I’m just surprised this Pilot was solo, they seemed very ill equipped to be flying solo. What’s with the rush to make students fly solo cross country? 😮
The pilot claimed to be panicked, but demonstrated to be sharp and capable of dealing with a rough situation. It's hard enough to have a genuine emergency but even harder with all the suggestions/chatter.
She probably was terribly panicked, but I suppose that was her way of “saying it out loud”, acknowledging the fact, and then telling herself to calm down and focus on getting the aircraft to the ground! Personally, I think that was a great call, especially for a student pilot!
@@747-pilot Absolutely agreed. That bit about panicking was a GREAT radio call. She succinctly communicated the cockpit situation, giving the controller the opportunity to account for her mental state. (edit) And now that I finished listening to it... ALL of her radio work in this recording is top notch!
I think her getting it out is what calmed her. The controller acknowledged her state of mind, then she was able to move on from that and focus on the task at hand.
“Judy” is a wonderful word. It is defined abbreviated communication within military aviation for “shut-up” and is intended for the context of I need my capacity inside my cockpit to ‘kill the snakes.’
Always have an engine failure plan. In cruise that's my main activity, my emergency checklist is out, and I'm monitoring my engine, nearest airports, and scanning for off airport landing spots when outside of glide range of a field. In my opinion, instructors don't teach these habits enough.
What a great learning tool. Your reaction to vid was awesome. As a pilot I hope that I learn more knowledge incase this happens to me one day. Thank You!
I had lunch in Auburn today and I'm pretty sure I saw you there with a student. I wanted to say hello but didn't want to interrupt so I thought I'd just comment here. Thank you so much for content, love your channel. Your videos always inspire me to be a safer pilot.
I think the controller did absolutely fine, she mentioned she was panicking. So keeping her engaged and focused is important. Of course if on the other hand she would have been overloaded like maybe airline pilots running checklists it may be better to only give minimum inputs.
This student pilot has a wonderfully clear, quick radio voice. It’s really great! (I’m kind of jealous.) I hope her accident doesn’t put her off flying. This incident certainly shows the value of having a Garmin system with SmartGlide. Much of the communication and guesswork could have been eliminated.
I love this!! My passion was always to be a pilot!!! I took 7 lessons but had to stop them. It’s been over a year and I haven’t went back for fear of this exact video but u explained it so well all off it clicked/resonated with me. You just inspired me to give it another try ❤
Go ahead and do it! I will be cheering for you! You have one life to live, and there is nothing that can describe the feeling of soaring like a bird above the earth! Also remember that an engine failure is still a VERY rare event. So don’t let that discourage you from completing your flight training! Most general aviation accidents (around 85% to 90% - can’t recall the exact number), are actually due to pilot error!
I think this student did an EXCELLENT job and glad she's ok. Other pilot did good too. Biggest error here was on the controllers part for sure. My thought is to always aim no closer than 1/3 runway length past the threshold... much better to land and run off the other end rather than coming up short. Josh, your words are a great lesson for everyone... soon as your mayday call comes out of your mouth ask for vectors at the same time if that's what you need.
Excellent breakdown with some key take away points. Must be those Finer points 😝. Thanks for the explanation. I will say though. Any student should understand the runway heading description if they are in the air soloing they should know what one seven three five means but he could have added a few key words like runway headings such and such and even throw in the general direction N/S like you said.
7:46 I'm a virtural Pilot and avation fan both of nearly 30 years and I thought he meant length... Like "can you land on this long of runway?" Instead of the runway number which to my knowledge and I could be very wrong but normally only given out as a ATC as a single up to 3 diget number for what end to land on not using it for oretation.
What I was taught from day one is always be aware of AGL - 1000ft. Know your your best rate vertcle speed. Calculate time to ground. Use that time to establish how often to look for a new place to land or update new AGL and time. Always remember it is never a question of if, only when.
One thing my instructor thought me was to say 3 Fs before the may day call. It calms you down and slows down the mayday part. He stressed that the controller is also going to panic a bit too and you can definitely hear that here. I feel the controller heard the pilot say she was a little panic'd and tried to help talk to her. Not all was useful or good, and hindsight is always better, but unlike us pilots, controllers can't really do many engine out drills.
She sounded remarkably calm over the radio considering she was task saturated. The hardest thing about flying is always being aware of your emergency landing location options. That short grass strip she was trying to get to would be pretty hard to spot.
I would add, the controller could have helped her out a little bit by looking up Google Earth, since it was a grass strip, and giving her some identifying features of the airport. I remember when I first started flying and it being hard just to find a paved runway sometimes. You're not used to navigating the Earth from that perspective.
Very critical of ATC, needlessly so. They're already overworked and now they're being criticized for not landing the pilot's airplane for them This controller did such an amazing job with vectors, pointing out where airfield was and reminding the student to trim for best glide I notice absolutely no criticism for the CFI who signed her off or the flight school that didn't care to maintain the damn airplane properly
It’s a good point about the CFI, I agree. But there’s no way of student pilot who declared an emergency should have to ask for a heading to the closest airport.
@@TheFinerPoints True. I think the controller probably suffered a startle effect, just like she did and made a few errors, but eventually got her turned the right way and got on with continuing vectors etc. Personally, I think the pilot overhead talked too much. He mentioned no flaps, when she turned base and she replies. landing on this strip with no flaps! did she overshoot it because of that? ADSB seems to have her setting up for a right downwind to 17, but she ends up in the campground at the end of 17, so how could she have landed short of 17?
I’ve played through engine out in a PC sim. (Started with very little fuel, then didn’t look at the gauge so I’d get a surprise engine out randomly at some point.) I’ve made the classic screw up of gliding to an airport then screwing up the approach and coming up short of the runway. I now know to get above the runway and gently spiral down. Never go away from the airport.
Would be interesting to know if she was using a tool like foreflight during her cross country. This would have told her where the nearest airport is. Counting on ATC to do anything except get rescue to you when you get on the ground is a mistake. Anyone know what caused the engine failure?
@@chicharonbuyakyak I'm troubled that a student pilot is navigating XC using foreflight. At this stage of training navigation should be pilotage, onboard VOR equipment, dead reckoning, pencil and paper and an E6B.
There was substantial damage to the aircraft, so the NTSB will eventually post the results of an investigation. If there was no accident with the forced landing, the only way you'd know is through the grapevine.
In that case use your gps, iPad or tablet moving map to identify the nearest airport on a continuous basis. Fly higher than normal to increase potential glide distance. Instead of a straight line, vary your course to keep within gliding distance of potential landing areas such as highways, fields or valleys, especially in mountainous areas.
I don’t understand why the ATC doesn’t have a database and a button push to find the nearest emergency field for the aircraft that is calling Mayday ? Seriously, how hard would it be to use the squawk code co-ordinates and then highlight the aircraft calling emergency Mayday and push a “find emergency landing site” ? We have most of the world mapped at this point. It’s just a simple database search. Actually this could be done live for all aircraft at all times. Button push. If anyone knows the s/w developers of ATC systems, please reach out to them!
This is why I teach my student pilots the Power Off 180 to a landing. Most instructors teach only the process as a student pilot but never actually take it to a landing. She did great otherwise and has posted updates on TikTok.
The steep spiral is also an incredibly useful maneuver. It's a good idea for the CFI to have some known empty roads/fields in the practice area where you and the student can take this practice down to 500' agl, and if the practice emergency becomes a real emergency, you're already good thanks to the abandoned road or farm road or whatever you got.
@@erickborling1302 We have a nearby designated low flying area where we can go as low as 100 ft AGL. It's a pretty typical Dutch landscape: flat, but lots of ditches and the odd power line thrown in. Practicing there puts things in perspective, as you can fly your emergency landing almost to completion. You'll have to manage flaps and slip to get the right approach. Fun and nerve-wracking at the same time.
She got there but didnt know how to set up over it. That is a critical skill. If you are directly over the field and too high, not everyone knows to try another circle or half circle.
I got to think. Maybe this is a seasoned ATC, and when things get urgent he needs to acclimate to the particular situation, but he is fighting primacy, which in the back of his mind initially distracts him, that "usually some thrust remains". It was the 4:47 "... student pilot solo lost *an* engine" that prompted me to think that. To his credit, it appears from the recording (unless it was edited for silence) that the time from "negative, the engine is off" to "Waterbury is just behind you" is very prompt. Also consider, if the situation had been that the pilot estimated to be able to reach Robertson, it could have been a major disservice to suggest a 2000ft runway behind her. In that case it would be best to get the pilot's assessment of the situation first. I guess the tasks for pilot and ATC were just difficult right from the get-go.
I wonder if part of it is that the controller subconsciously rejected the idea that such a bad option was the best option. Waterbury is short, surrounded by tall trees, on top of a hill, doesn't have a silhouette that looks like a normal airport or weather reporting, might have adverse surface conditions, and is out in the middle of nowhere with limited resources in the likely case of injuries due to a suboptimal landing/runway overrun. While Waterbury being an airport gives it better clearance guarantees and avoids property damage, it might not necessarily be a better option than a farmer's field of sufficient size... which also might be something else to consider from the student's perspective (or even from the perspective of the controller offering suggestions).
@@ikkinwithattitude Spot on! At the time I don't think the controller knew (or even could know) that this was the kind of option to look for. For all we know, he may well have looked but held his tongue until better informed.
On my discovery flight, I was very comfortable flying the plane due to around 15 years of home simming experience. My CFI decided I was ready for a simulated engine failure, briefed me and got my consent, and pulled the throttle. I chose a landing field about two miles away to which he asked if I was sure it was the best spot to land. I replied that yes, it looked like the flattest area near our location. My CFI then asked me to bank left and look straight down out of the side window… at which point I realized Rio Vista airport was directly beneath us. 😂 After that “DOI” moment, I was able to successfully maneuver for a simulated emergency landing and my CFI explained that while the field probably would have also been fine I should always be fully aware of my position and environment. Invaluable lesson on my discovery flight! Glad this pilot survived. When the controller asked if she was able to maintain altitude and she responded with her tail number I could easily see how he may have taken that as an “affirmative” response, at which point he may have tried to get her over to an airport with a paved runway assuming she could maintain altitude as a student pilot, versus trying to have her perform a soft field landing at a grass field. I agree that the closer airport should have been the better choice regardless, but just offering an opinion on a potential thought process.
In my flying club, no one solo's until they have passed the written. You have no business being PIC, until you understand the terminology and procedures required to do so.
If a controller can't talk the way a pilot needs to think, he needs to find someone else to talk instead. Landing in the trees demonstrates ignorance about energy management and spatial awareness. She deserved better. Help her identify the field faster, setup speed and base better.
You are being really unfair to that controller, IMO. I think everyone did about as well as can be expected under the circumstances. The first call from the student was for engine trouble, the call for engine failure was the second call after Mayday. Perfectly fair for the controller to ask if she can make the airport, I am not sure if you expect them to know the glide range for all planes or you think the closes grass strip is the best option for controllers whenever they here a mayday or maybe something different. I guess he could have offered multiple options, but that likely would just lead to more confusion. I have only been a PPL student pilot once (obviously) , but before I solo'ed I knew what runway numbers meant, not sure how I would judge my takeoff crosswind minimums or wind in general without knowing that fact. I would go so far as to say it would be irresponsible to send a student up by themselves that did not have this information. She had 2200 feet when she made that field, she just did not see it, tough spot for anyone to be in trying to land on an unfamiliar grass strip like that under pressure.
she declared mayday with engine issue, engine failure was later, big airport with paved runway make sense, but with that should be information on closest runway too, right after talking about engine issue, even before mayday.
Jason why do we need ATC TO GIVE US A VECTOR to an airport? The IPad or GPS can give it to you with a punch of a button. Make that part of your engine out memory items. Thoughts please.❤🇺🇸👍🙏🏻😀 love your videos Jason.
You don't want private pilot applicants using iPads (that comes later). The idea of using "all available resources" would suggest it's better to have ATC do that work for you while your workload is high. On t'uther hand it is desirable to teach the student the very fast and easy "NRST" (nearest) function with the onboard GPS (if there is one).
@@erickborling1302 long time pilot. I was surprised that students don’t use I Pad. My comment was meant to save time and immediately head towards a runway. It only adds 3 sec to my engine out routine. Takes out the controller part of the equation. My priority fly the plane then communicate. I appreciate your thoughts. 😊 ❤️🇺🇸🛫🙏🏻
I agree every student pilot should know an easy and reliable way to immediately locate the nearest airfield, using whatever tool they have. My little Garmin Aera 660 has NRST and you just hit DIRECT and it gives you the line to follow.
After on course to nearest airport The controller should have offered her to get on best glide, stabilize, then ask if the prop is windmilling, if yes then. switch tanks, full rich mixture, fuel pump on and try for a restart. CFI's this should be taught "before solo". She had 5000' to work things out, was in a panic mindset, and needed this kind of "action-prompting" help. Best glide towards a landing area, stabilize, work viable options out. If the engine wasn't seized then the above, If the engine is seized then fuel off, fuel pump off. Also when power off training do it with one notch of flaps to assimilate a "real world" non-idling engine glide slope. Glad she was safe.
That's nice in principle but not all planes would have the same engine failure checklist. So... could be real bad for a controller to instruct for an unfamiliar airplane. Student likely had the checklist anyway. The panic factor was (I bet) due to the lack of ideal fields or trouble choosing one, not to mention inexperience. Even with experience it can get real scary -- that green field could be muddy! One of my fave students was a farmer and soil-science expert. He really knew what a good field looked like.
@@erickborling1302 I disagree. a solo student will be in a trainer aircraft. Name one trainer aircraft that wouldn't start in using that technique. Just the mention of the such would be a prompt to get to the re-start checklist. She needed prompts, Prompts should have been given "for a student pilot". I'll bet she didn't even try to restart... Wanna bet? at 5000ft she had ample time but wasn't prompted to her checklists.
Carb heat too if relevant here. That's hard to train for until it happens. When it does, the engine can run worse for a while as the ice melts which may make one want to turn it off even though it's the right thing to do if one hasn't experienced it before.
Can we like require all General Aviation pilots who want to fly a big heavy metal plane, to go to Glider School? Glider pilots land their plane just about every single time with no engine at all... and have no problem doing so. On an airplane, you are suppose to fly the wing, not the engine. If you got wings, there is no excuse for you panicing. Now, I'm a quadcopter pilot, we fly the engine 100% of the time, because there are no wings, it's all engine. General aviation pilots I think are the worst pilots ever... they have to learn all this other rubbish navigating air space, and never learn to fly the play beyond take off, landing, and holding the wings straight. And this is 100% the FAA's fault for carving up maps with a million lines and borders and rules. Class D airspace. WTF? It's all air. There are no lines in the sky.
I am happy she is alive. I am ALWAYS looking for a spot to land.
It needs to be stressed that your aiming point for an engine out landing should not be at the end of the runway like normal landings. Aim ⅓ or ½ way up the runway in case you misjudge your airspeed. You can always slip if needed. My instructor taught me to do an engine out landing every third landing. Practice prevents panic.
With the engine out and after obtaining best glide, your aiming point is basically whatever part of the ground is coming straight at you (not moving left/right/up or down). I always teach the students this scenario and we practice it, after the student really understands the glide ratio and how far they can go from any given altitude agl. It's also great to practice it in a sim, even if that sim is Google Earth and you're flying the F-16. With that foreknowledge the emergency pilot can get real refined about how to use the flaps, slips, and turning the right number of times so their circle intersects the ground on the ideal course to the "field."
Back in the winter of 72-73 when I was a student, my instructor did engine-outs literally every lesson, and sometimes several in a lesson. It used to drive me nuts, and when I complained, he calmly said, “someday you’ll thank me, Cary”. Well, in the intervening 51+ years, I’ve had two occasions to thank him for those repetitive and frankly annoying practices.
The first was a temporary engine failure in the clouds in a Mooney 231, which turned out to be impact ice that clogged the air intake. I immediately declared an emergency and asked for vectors to Pueblo, CO, which was “maybe” doable according to the DME, but the weather at PUB was about 300 and a mile, so it would have been a frightening experience-both ILS runways were essentially perpendicular to our route of flight (this was before GPS RNAV). Fortunately after losing about 1600’, I got the engine going again by pulling the manual knob for alternate air.
The second was a total engine failure at low altitude-my new-to-me Cessna P172D had thrown a rod through the top of the engine case. I was only at about 1000’ AGL, so although I declared an emergency, it was on the nearest airport Unicom frequency-I was too busy flying the airplane to change frequencies. Without going into more detail, I did everything the way I was trained many years before, cleared some power lines, and landed in a field, with no damage to the airplane-best soft field landing I’d ever made without power.
My current instructor is a task master, so that every engine out scenario during flight reviews has been to a landing. He’s picked a place, he knows my ability, and he knows my airplane, too. So far, I’ve always found the place he picked and made a suitable landing there. A couple of times, it meant a full flap slip to avoid overshooting, and a couple of other times, it meant pulling the prop knob all the way out to make the prop coarse to reduce drag.
You’re definitely right-knowing how without practicing how isn’t good enough. Both my original instructor 51 years ago and my current instructor teach to immediately head for the intended place to land-no fiddling around trying to get things going. If that’s on downwind, immediately turn toward the runway. If that’s a ranch strip, immediately turn toward it. If that’s a field, turn toward it. Aviate, navigate, communicate. No wasting time flying the radio.
I was doing a glider add-on and one of the debrief points the DPE made was that he could tell who the jet guys were because we all aimed to use all the runway; he was making the same point about wanting margin for the inadequate side not just the braking side. Though with the gliders you can push spoiler in to float a little more. As for airspeed, hopefully you can get an AOA. Best no wind glide is an AOA, not an airspeed. Now, having said this, some platforms have additional considerations like having adequate airflow to run a RAT (ram air turbine for hydraulics and/or electrics) or for preserving energy to squat a jet and eject. These platforms may fly engine out significantly faster than airframe best glide and actually need to aim well shy of landing as they’re going to float a lot. Consider the Space Shuttle, it landed engine out, and it had its aim point well shy of the runway. As for normal landings, why aim at the end of the runway except for truly short field? Same concern for margins applies. And you could have an added element in larger aircraft with judging seat position and associated sight line versus wheel touchdown point being rather far apart.
Good comment. Thank you. Remember too o train best glide speed with windmilling prop vs non windmilling prop.
The best is she is okay! I think she did a incredible job at her current stage in training. She GREW so much as a pilot and can you imagine the awesome critical experience she gained..... WOW!
I’m just surprised this Pilot was solo, they seemed very ill equipped to be flying solo. What’s with the rush to make students fly solo cross country? 😮
The pilot claimed to be panicked, but demonstrated to be sharp and capable of dealing with a rough situation.
It's hard enough to have a genuine emergency but even harder with all the suggestions/chatter.
She probably was terribly panicked, but I suppose that was her way of “saying it out loud”, acknowledging the fact, and then telling herself to calm down and focus on getting the aircraft to the ground! Personally, I think that was a great call, especially for a student pilot!
@@747-pilot Absolutely agreed. That bit about panicking was a GREAT radio call. She succinctly communicated the cockpit situation, giving the controller the opportunity to account for her mental state. (edit) And now that I finished listening to it... ALL of her radio work in this recording is top notch!
Admitting you are panicked or nervous is a good way to calm down.
I think her getting it out is what calmed her. The controller acknowledged her state of mind, then she was able to move on from that and focus on the task at hand.
Awesome coverage and expert thoughts on this accident. Thanks for helping make the aviation community safer, Jason. Excellent point of view.
“Judy” is a wonderful word. It is defined abbreviated communication within military aviation for “shut-up” and is intended for the context of I need my capacity inside my cockpit to ‘kill the snakes.’
Always have an engine failure plan. In cruise that's my main activity, my emergency checklist is out, and I'm monitoring my engine, nearest airports, and scanning for off airport landing spots when outside of glide range of a field. In my opinion, instructors don't teach these habits enough.
So glad she is ok. Hopefully she has not been scared off from continuing with her flying. Cheers.
What a great learning tool. Your reaction to vid was awesome. As a pilot I hope that I learn more knowledge incase this happens to me one day. Thank You!
I had lunch in Auburn today and I'm pretty sure I saw you there with a student. I wanted to say hello but didn't want to interrupt so I thought I'd just comment here. Thank you so much for content, love your channel. Your videos always inspire me to be a safer pilot.
Excellent explanation of an actual engine out landing
Thank you Jason
I think the controller did absolutely fine, she mentioned she was panicking. So keeping her engaged and focused is important. Of course if on the other hand she would have been overloaded like maybe airline pilots running checklists it may be better to only give minimum inputs.
She done well!!
This student pilot has a wonderfully clear, quick radio voice. It’s really great! (I’m kind of jealous.) I hope her accident doesn’t put her off flying. This incident certainly shows the value of having a Garmin system with SmartGlide. Much of the communication and guesswork could have been eliminated.
I love this!! My passion was always to be a pilot!!! I took 7 lessons but had to stop them. It’s been over a year and I haven’t went back for fear of this exact video but u explained it so well all off it clicked/resonated with me. You just inspired me to give it another try ❤
Go ahead and do it! I will be cheering for you! You have one life to live, and there is nothing that can describe the feeling of soaring like a bird above the earth!
Also remember that an engine failure is still a VERY rare event. So don’t let that discourage you from completing your flight training! Most general aviation accidents (around 85% to 90% - can’t recall the exact number), are actually due to pilot error!
I think this student did an EXCELLENT job and glad she's ok. Other pilot did good too. Biggest error here was on the controllers part for sure. My thought is to always aim no closer than 1/3 runway length past the threshold... much better to land and run off the other end rather than coming up short. Josh, your words are a great lesson for everyone... soon as your mayday call comes out of your mouth ask for vectors at the same time if that's what you need.
Excellent breakdown with some key take away points. Must be those Finer points 😝. Thanks for the explanation.
I will say though. Any student should understand the runway heading description if they are in the air soloing they should know what one seven three five means but he could have added a few key words like runway headings such and such and even throw in the general direction N/S like you said.
She did amazing
7:46 I'm a virtural Pilot and avation fan both of nearly 30 years and I thought he meant length... Like "can you land on this long of runway?" Instead of the runway number which to my knowledge and I could be very wrong but normally only given out as a ATC as a single up to 3 diget number for what end to land on not using it for oretation.
What I was taught from day one is always be aware of AGL - 1000ft. Know your your best rate vertcle speed. Calculate time to ground. Use that time to establish how often to look for a new place to land or update new AGL and time. Always remember it is never a question of if, only when.
Great debrief! Great video!
I talk to the Bradley guys all the time and they have been very good. I think student and ATC did a good job.
As always great information, keep up the strong work!
I think your analysis makes total sense. Thanks so much
I want to be ready ! Thank you for your precious content 👍✈️
“At your right two o’clock” is a vector.
Kinda sorta
One thing my instructor thought me was to say 3 Fs before the may day call. It calms you down and slows down the mayday part. He stressed that the controller is also going to panic a bit too and you can definitely hear that here. I feel the controller heard the pilot say she was a little panic'd and tried to help talk to her. Not all was useful or good, and hindsight is always better, but unlike us pilots, controllers can't really do many engine out drills.
She sounded remarkably calm over the radio considering she was task saturated. The hardest thing about flying is always being aware of your emergency landing location options. That short grass strip she was trying to get to would be pretty hard to spot.
Great video. As always!
I would add, the controller could have helped her out a little bit by looking up Google Earth, since it was a grass strip, and giving her some identifying features of the airport. I remember when I first started flying and it being hard just to find a paved runway sometimes. You're not used to navigating the Earth from that perspective.
Very critical of ATC, needlessly so. They're already overworked and now they're being criticized for not landing the pilot's airplane for them
This controller did such an amazing job with vectors, pointing out where airfield was and reminding the student to trim for best glide
I notice absolutely no criticism for the CFI who signed her off or the flight school that didn't care to maintain the damn airplane properly
It’s a good point about the CFI, I agree. But there’s no way of student pilot who declared an emergency should have to ask for a heading to the closest airport.
@@TheFinerPoints He gave her a heading. Two O'clock. I'm sure she knows what Two O'clock and five miles mean.
@@TheFinerPoints True. I think the controller probably suffered a startle effect, just like she did and made a few errors, but eventually got her turned the right way and got on with continuing vectors etc. Personally, I think the pilot overhead talked too much. He mentioned no flaps, when she turned base and she replies. landing on this strip with no flaps! did she overshoot it because of that? ADSB seems to have her setting up for a right downwind to 17, but she ends up in the campground at the end of 17, so how could she have landed short of 17?
"Im not trying to throw this controller under the bus, but Im going to throw this controller undwr the bus."
seriously... if that's all you took away from this there are some issues.
All the way to the ground is a great tip! Too many climb away at 500 feet
I’ve played through engine out in a PC sim. (Started with very little fuel, then didn’t look at the gauge so I’d get a surprise engine out randomly at some point.) I’ve made the classic screw up of gliding to an airport then screwing up the approach and coming up short of the runway. I now know to get above the runway and gently spiral down. Never go away from the airport.
Hey, I recognize her voice I’ve been in the pattern at Poughkeepsie before with her. Her voices in one of my videos.
Can you please tell us why the engine died?
Great video.
Would be interesting to know if she was using a tool like foreflight during her cross country. This would have told her where the nearest airport is. Counting on ATC to do anything except get rescue to you when you get on the ground is a mistake. Anyone know what caused the engine failure?
Yes she has foreflight. It's provided by the school
@@chicharonbuyakyak I'm troubled that a student pilot is navigating XC using foreflight. At this stage of training navigation should be pilotage, onboard VOR equipment, dead reckoning, pencil and paper and an E6B.
She has all of that. We are trained by the school with all of those prior to dual or solo xc
There was substantial damage to the aircraft, so the NTSB will eventually post the results of an investigation. If there was no accident with the forced landing, the only way you'd know is through the grapevine.
What are the procedures when flying above clouds or at night in terms of always having an emergency landing spot in view?
In that case use your gps, iPad or tablet moving map to identify the nearest airport on a continuous basis. Fly higher than normal to increase potential glide distance. Instead of a straight line, vary your course to keep within gliding distance of potential landing areas such as highways, fields or valleys, especially in mountainous areas.
Please teach new pilots to solve the landing problem with the radio off. This will save their life.
I suspect she wasn't expecting a grass strip and that's why she was having trouble identifying it at first.
I don’t understand why the ATC doesn’t have a database and a button push to find the nearest emergency field for the aircraft that is calling Mayday ? Seriously, how hard would it be to use the squawk code co-ordinates and then highlight the aircraft calling emergency Mayday and push a “find emergency landing site” ? We have most of the world mapped at this point. It’s just a simple database search. Actually this could be done live for all aircraft at all times. Button push. If anyone knows the s/w developers of ATC systems, please reach out to them!
I wish the controler had said it is a grass strip early on and made sure she was looking for a grass strip not a big airport.
This is why I teach my student pilots the Power Off 180 to a landing. Most instructors teach only the process as a student pilot but never actually take it to a landing. She did great otherwise and has posted updates on TikTok.
The steep spiral is also an incredibly useful maneuver. It's a good idea for the CFI to have some known empty roads/fields in the practice area where you and the student can take this practice down to 500' agl, and if the practice emergency becomes a real emergency, you're already good thanks to the abandoned road or farm road or whatever you got.
@@erickborling1302 We have a nearby designated low flying area where we can go as low as 100 ft AGL. It's a pretty typical Dutch landscape: flat, but lots of ditches and the odd power line thrown in. Practicing there puts things in perspective, as you can fly your emergency landing almost to completion. You'll have to manage flaps and slip to get the right approach. Fun and nerve-wracking at the same time.
She got there but didnt know how to set up over it. That is a critical skill. If you are directly over the field and too high, not everyone knows to try another circle or half circle.
I got to think. Maybe this is a seasoned ATC, and when things get urgent he needs to acclimate to the particular situation, but he is fighting primacy, which in the back of his mind initially distracts him, that "usually some thrust remains". It was the 4:47 "... student pilot solo lost *an* engine" that prompted me to think that.
To his credit, it appears from the recording (unless it was edited for silence) that the time from "negative, the engine is off" to "Waterbury is just behind you" is very prompt.
Also consider, if the situation had been that the pilot estimated to be able to reach Robertson, it could have been a major disservice to suggest a 2000ft runway behind her. In that case it would be best to get the pilot's assessment of the situation first. I guess the tasks for pilot and ATC were just difficult right from the get-go.
I wonder if part of it is that the controller subconsciously rejected the idea that such a bad option was the best option.
Waterbury is short, surrounded by tall trees, on top of a hill, doesn't have a silhouette that looks like a normal airport or weather reporting, might have adverse surface conditions, and is out in the middle of nowhere with limited resources in the likely case of injuries due to a suboptimal landing/runway overrun.
While Waterbury being an airport gives it better clearance guarantees and avoids property damage, it might not necessarily be a better option than a farmer's field of sufficient size... which also might be something else to consider from the student's perspective (or even from the perspective of the controller offering suggestions).
@@ikkinwithattitude Spot on! At the time I don't think the controller knew (or even could know) that this was the kind of option to look for. For all we know, he may well have looked but held his tongue until better informed.
On my discovery flight, I was very comfortable flying the plane due to around 15 years of home simming experience. My CFI decided I was ready for a simulated engine failure, briefed me and got my consent, and pulled the throttle. I chose a landing field about two miles away to which he asked if I was sure it was the best spot to land. I replied that yes, it looked like the flattest area near our location.
My CFI then asked me to bank left and look straight down out of the side window… at which point I realized Rio Vista airport was directly beneath us. 😂 After that “DOI” moment, I was able to successfully maneuver for a simulated emergency landing and my CFI explained that while the field probably would have also been fine I should always be fully aware of my position and environment. Invaluable lesson on my discovery flight!
Glad this pilot survived. When the controller asked if she was able to maintain altitude and she responded with her tail number I could easily see how he may have taken that as an “affirmative” response, at which point he may have tried to get her over to an airport with a paved runway assuming she could maintain altitude as a student pilot, versus trying to have her perform a soft field landing at a grass field.
I agree that the closer airport should have been the better choice regardless, but just offering an opinion on a potential thought process.
Aside from the landing she did fine and didn't sound especially panicked which is what I would be.
Did she stall it on final ? Yes or not. Looks like it.
With your hours, how many engine outs have you had?
1 🙏🏻🙏🏻
1 🙏🏻God
In my flying club, no one solo's until they have passed the written. You have no business being PIC, until you understand the terminology and procedures required to do so.
The pre-solo written is required by FAR
@@apilotspersective I thought so, but I took my written way back when Loran C was the hot new NavAid.
If a controller can't talk the way a pilot needs to think, he needs to find someone else to talk instead. Landing in the trees demonstrates ignorance about energy management and spatial awareness. She deserved better. Help her identify the field faster, setup speed and base better.
Engine failure in flight is scary, but survivable.
Parachutes help.
N121YT.
You are being really unfair to that controller, IMO. I think everyone did about as well as can be expected under the circumstances. The first call from the student was for engine trouble, the call for engine failure was the second call after Mayday. Perfectly fair for the controller to ask if she can make the airport, I am not sure if you expect them to know the glide range for all planes or you think the closes grass strip is the best option for controllers whenever they here a mayday or maybe something different. I guess he could have offered multiple options, but that likely would just lead to more confusion. I have only been a PPL student pilot once (obviously) , but before I solo'ed I knew what runway numbers meant, not sure how I would judge my takeoff crosswind minimums or wind in general without knowing that fact. I would go so far as to say it would be irresponsible to send a student up by themselves that did not have this information. She had 2200 feet when she made that field, she just did not see it, tough spot for anyone to be in trying to land on an unfamiliar grass strip like that under pressure.
a 2000 foot grass strip can be very hard to recognize even when your not having an emergency.
This sounds like a flight school that insists on paper charts and no GPS proficiency until after PPL.
I'm old. School but definitely use all available resources ...and that includes GPS and FOREFLIGHT.
she declared mayday with engine issue, engine failure was later, big airport with paved runway make sense, but with that should be information on closest runway too, right after talking about engine issue, even before mayday.
Pilots should know all the time where the closest airport is. What if you’re not talking to ATC
I think if I was the pilot of 12180 I would have quickly landed to try and help her.
Agreed, I would have landed and provided assistance until the first responders arrived and took over the scene.
I would have. If I commit to help, I will do what's necessary.
Jason why do we need ATC TO GIVE US A VECTOR to an airport? The IPad or GPS can give it to you with a punch of a button. Make that part of your engine out memory items. Thoughts please.❤🇺🇸👍🙏🏻😀 love your videos Jason.
You don't want private pilot applicants using iPads (that comes later). The idea of using "all available resources" would suggest it's better to have ATC do that work for you while your workload is high. On t'uther hand it is desirable to teach the student the very fast and easy "NRST" (nearest) function with the onboard GPS (if there is one).
@@erickborling1302 long time pilot. I was surprised that students don’t use I Pad. My comment was meant to save time and immediately head towards a runway. It only adds 3 sec to my engine out routine. Takes out the controller part of the equation.
My priority fly the plane then communicate.
I appreciate your thoughts. 😊 ❤️🇺🇸🛫🙏🏻
I agree every student pilot should know an easy and reliable way to immediately locate the nearest airfield, using whatever tool they have. My little Garmin Aera 660 has NRST and you just hit DIRECT and it gives you the line to follow.
After on course to nearest airport The controller should have offered her to get on best glide, stabilize, then ask if the prop is windmilling, if yes then. switch tanks, full rich mixture, fuel pump on and try for a restart. CFI's this should be taught "before solo". She had 5000' to work things out, was in a panic mindset, and needed this kind of "action-prompting" help. Best glide towards a landing area, stabilize, work viable options out. If the engine wasn't seized then the above, If the engine is seized then fuel off, fuel pump off. Also when power off training do it with one notch of flaps to assimilate a "real world" non-idling engine glide slope. Glad she was safe.
That's nice in principle but not all planes would have the same engine failure checklist. So... could be real bad for a controller to instruct for an unfamiliar airplane. Student likely had the checklist anyway. The panic factor was (I bet) due to the lack of ideal fields or trouble choosing one, not to mention inexperience. Even with experience it can get real scary -- that green field could be muddy! One of my fave students was a farmer and soil-science expert. He really knew what a good field looked like.
@@erickborling1302 I disagree. a solo student will be in a trainer aircraft. Name one trainer aircraft that wouldn't start in using that technique. Just the mention of the such would be a prompt to get to the re-start checklist. She needed prompts, Prompts should have been given "for a student pilot". I'll bet she didn't even try to restart... Wanna bet? at 5000ft she had ample time but wasn't prompted to her checklists.
Carb heat too if relevant here. That's hard to train for until it happens. When it does, the engine can run worse for a while as the ice melts which may make one want to turn it off even though it's the right thing to do if one hasn't experienced it before.
Robert, you should delete than nonsense post.
@@sqwk2559 Not
Can we like require all General Aviation pilots who want to fly a big heavy metal plane, to go to Glider School?
Glider pilots land their plane just about every single time with no engine at all... and have no problem doing so.
On an airplane, you are suppose to fly the wing, not the engine. If you got wings, there is no excuse for you panicing.
Now, I'm a quadcopter pilot, we fly the engine 100% of the time, because there are no wings, it's all engine.
General aviation pilots I think are the worst pilots ever... they have to learn all this other rubbish navigating air space, and never learn to fly the play beyond take off, landing, and holding the wings straight. And this is 100% the FAA's fault for carving up maps with a million lines and borders and rules. Class D airspace. WTF? It's all air. There are no lines in the sky.