0:00 Start, TSM as a pool 1 team going 0-6, format discussion - Here’s to the Zeroes by Marianas Trench 19:30 Kold joins the show, very brief discussion of him being a coach, then switching to discussion of NA, infrastructure and cultural issues - No Filter by Hit the Lights 33:37 The prodigal son of NA - Superman by Ivory Layne 37:10 Training new players being the way forward? TheCaseStudy of TheShy - Life is Looking Up by Forgive Durden 47:23 TSM TSM TSM - Ms. Crumby by The Audition 59:21 Level 1s - The Lonely One by Let It Happen 1:04:15 Quarter final matchups, FNC and TES - Down & Out by Foxtrot & the Get Down 1:18:00 Jungle in the worlds meta - Baba O’Riley by The Who 1:28:58 G2 vs GEN - Hawaii (Stay Awake) by Waterparks (my reaction when I saw this bracket draw) 1:37:03 Singing the praises of G2 - Flyers by BRADIO 1:48:02 More TSM ranting - Paper Tigers by Envoi (you have no idea how happy I was to see that Envoi made two new songs when I checked on them) 1:57:27 DRX and DMG - A Little Bit More by You, Me, And Everyone We Know (this song is sung from DRX’s perspective) 2:00:03 SN vs JDG - The Ruse & the Caper by Coyote Theory 2:06:19 Final predictions - More by Lawrence 2:14:35 More discussion of formats - Figure Me Out by The Summer Set
0:00 Start, TSM as a pool 1 team going 0-6, format discussion 19:30 Kold joins the show, very brief discussion of him being a coach, then switching to discussion of NA, infrastructure and cultural issues 33:37 The prodigal son of NA 37:10 Training new players being the way forward? 47:23 TSM TSM TSM 59:21 Level 1s 1:04:15 Quarter final matchups, FNC and TES 1:18:00 Jungle in the worlds meta 1:28:58 G2 vs GEN 1:37:03 Singing the praises of G2 1:48:02 More TSM ranting 1:57:27 DRX and DMG 2:00:03 SN vs JDG 2:06:19 Final predictions 2:14:35 More discussion of formats
@@jonathanmorris8197 yeah it's normal. I'm a Fnatic fan but still enjoy when Thorin rips on Rekkles... although I have to admit that the opportunity to rip on Fnatic is a lil more rare this season than it has been for TSM lul
5:18 LCS 3rd spot has always outperformed all minor regions 1st seed. They also outperform the 4th seeds of LPL and LEC. The problem isn't 3 LCS seeds. The problem is giving NA a pool 1 seed. The only pool 1 seeds should be LEC1, LPL1, LCK1, and the 2 seed of whoever won the last worlds or MSI. Vietnam or PCS equally don't deserve pool 1 seeds.
Surprising to read some comments about not liking Kold’s appearance here. I thought he was a solid guest and I’d like to see more with him. Good introduction to Kold for me
@@RaggedM88 that's kind of petty, I despise the way OG plays but I'd still root for them if they somehow stumbled their way to an international tournament
The only bo5 I'm really curious about is the G2 vs GenG one. The meta has never been worse for g2, perkz is stuck on real adcs without long casts or cc which generally makes him look like a below average adc (with an incredible support). Jankos is stuck on carry junglers and is constantly behind on farm in every match up because he dosen't play them like carry junglers. Caps looks confused when he needs to set up for jungler instead of the other way around but is still a very good laner. They are an incredible team but this truly is nightmare material in terms of meta. The way they communicate and talk about the game is incredible but having a meta where crabs and dragon is so high value that you can't really give it is so straight forward that it forces a certain game state with a bunch of early 4v4 or 5v5 until the 15-17 min mark. If the opposing team is stronger it literally forces certain types of execution in the current meta where you follow a script. The only way you can break the dragon force early is if you can dive top/mid/bot and get the full tower with herald after and make up for losing double drake or trading drake because it gives a huge enough lead where you can just shift that lead to win the inevitable next 5v5 at 3rd drake. But assuming you can't break the game in either side lane or mid you actually have to fight drake after the 15-17 min mark. Assuming you don't scale you lose the second you don't get in control of the game with certain comps, you either need massive scaling that come online really early and somehow get a drake early from bot pressure or break a lane to get an earlier powerspike. Herald is only good if you break tower because at that point you get ~1000 gold, 320 gold for herald is not a good trade in terms of time realisticly because of the tempo you lose as jungler. It's really unfortunate that every good team figured out how you could abuse the current dragon changes, coupled with jungle exp. The meta has never had less complexity from my point of view as I could figure out the basics of it. The way teams rotate I think an amateur team could figure out, the execution of lane phase and fights is basicly the decider (a lot of games is lost pre 10 mins aswell even lv 1 some of them). Try to cover herald fight if you have stronger 4v4 assuming any of your towers are sensitive or lanes are unstable (gankable while under pressure). If this isn't possible just hold tp for top dive or cover sensitive lane with jungler and the herald is useless. If you get into a scenario where you are sensitive to dives and have to give herald because of weaker or even fights and have a weaker 2v2 top and mid first 15 (after 15 you have to fight), pick bard to cover first tower with herald despite griefing bot lane a bit. The only place people fail right now is mid game execution i.e setup around drakes late game or towers (or basic map reads). If you flip the game over baron with better scaling and you can't break inhib or end with baron, did you really need to force fights at baron unless they start it and you are in a bad position? Do you really need herald if they can't fight you and you can't break a tower with it and risk a smite burger flip when you could literally perma cover it with top, mid if they are winning and risk a fight with bad positioning. Now all off a sudden a bad death away from losing. I think the meta is a bit to directed at large fights, I wish they could make it possible to outplay the current dragon force or have viable choices to the early aram / dragon fights.
Perks played really well in group stage? Particularly in late game teamfights. I agree this hasn't been a good summer split for Perkz, but I at least saw a massive improvement between LEC finals and the group stage of worlds. Both Ezreal and Senna are meta/playable and he looks great on both, We will have to see how deep that champion pool goes though. The Jankos criticism is way more valid, and I actually think its a mid/jungle problem in that Caps/Jankos always previously played with Caps as the carry and Jankos supporting him. Now in this meta you are required to do the opposite, with the midlane sheltering the jungle and G2 looks super uncomfortable with it in general. I think we can expect G2 to play at least one game of aggro jungle, similar to the way SOFM played Lee and J4. While it isn't as powerful as the meta, is it counter-meta in the same way engage supports were counter meta in the dark days of ardent censer. I think g2 will do really well this tournament if they can pull off that secondary style and win games with it, while they won't if they just have to play farm jungle every game. I agree that the macro game seems way more basic atm. I do think it opens up more if you get to a mid/late game state without either team threatening soul point. I think I favor G2 against GenG because I don't see GenG breaking open and winning the game early. I worry about G2 vs Damwon and Chinese teams though, because they are all trying to win the game before 15, which prevents g2 from using their creativity.
@@-MisterWhite... I don't agree with what you said about perkz ezreal games, I think perkz got caught first in 2 or 3 fights in the first game on ezreal (1). None of them being flanks and one being a plain naut hook (with flash and e up) or completely no reaction to rene walking up or in to flash range if I remember correctly, the game he played really well is the senna game and that was the last game of groups. He played one fight well in the ez game, but that kind off dosen't forgive almost losing the game alone (this is after he got qss). He has a VERY good senna but I think it is the only champ he plays to the level of the other top players in the tournament. He also has a very good idea of how he should use ashe r in comparison to some other adcs but his kiting or dodging on ashe specificly isn't that sick when you compare to top adcs (he sometimes kites away from team, cancels autos etc i.e. he gets overwhelmed a bit like lower tier adcs sometimes and don't do the right play naturely, it will most likely come with time if he continues playing adc). But I absolutely agree with what you said if we only talk about his senna, he looks very good on senna I think. (1) If you want to watch his games and compare to somebody like ruler, jackeylove or even rekkles playing ezreal, I would recommend watching ruler play ez vs tsm at worlds for what a good preformance can look like in a similar game (tsm also both has worse execution and team fighting than suning but I still think it's a very similar game), he obviously played one more but got completely griefed with both lane picks and support in that game). So the reason I'm worried they might lose is because as I said you can't avoid 5v5s (look 2) even in the mid or latter part of the game, and if we talk about ability to pure 5v5, I don't see or have g2 winning. I think it's the opposite of what you said, I think G2 have pressure to break the game early vs GenG and not the other way around. The reason for that being is that GenG will most likely pick slower champs than g2 like they've done the entire year (even though it looks like they upped the pace a bit for worlds) and play around ruler which I consider to be a better player than perkz in team fights in general. Another potential win condition is the fact that GenG don't have as high prio on senna as G2 which might allow for only senna games. (2) So the reason you usually can't avoid dragon fights even though it involves baron late game is because the team that has worse scalling usually needs soul to kind of break the game in the late game. So assuming equal or similar scalling or the fact that you are fairly ahead with the worse scalling but not to the point of having full map control, in these 2 scenarios the game usually has a lot of marco still. Stuff like wave pressure, good set ups and expecting rotations into areas, smart recall tps, stuff like this could happen but very unlikely to be the case in this series. So the way G2 wins is through killing and/or diving top and then getting 3 plates into herald and gg, the top gap in this game looks huge from the games I've seen Wunder play. Assuming G2 gets camille a single game I think that game would be a instaloss for GenG just with how hard you can force dives and pressure top with that pick. The potential way G2 wins late game is also a bit back to perkz, assuming he can get senna every or a lot of the games would mean they absolutely have potential to win late game fights. I don't think this is as true for a couple of the other champs (he might prove me wrong). Bdd has not looked that sick this tournament which I have to say is another potential vulnerability for gen g, as I said before caps is a very good 1v1 player and in terms of pure laning there is a chance he can lane kingdom through mid and dominate the map this game and break the game that way. That being said bdd is a very good player and he looked very stable and strong in the games I've seen from LCK. Still something to watch out for.
@@TheLillepojken there is a lot of power in being concise my friend. I only read the first paragraph of your first comment and just wanted to say that you make it seem like getting the first 2 or even 3 dragons is an auto win, and you have to trade a full tower for first dragon. That’s just blowing things way out of proportion, 4th dragon only matters, which spawn around what 25 minutes usually? That means the other team has 25 minutes to collect enough of a gold lead to beat the dragon team by then. More than enough. There’s been enough games at worlds that showed this, team x gets all the dragons but loses out on gold and eventually team y is just too strong and wins.
@@raedos1 Just read the full thing if you want to know what my point is. I don't type my message for you, but rather for somebody interested in reading and myself.
Here's the problem, if NA had only one slot. That one slot would have been TSM, and look how well they did. Our other two slots did way better. Hell Liquid very nearly made it out of groups. Flyquest's scoreline makes it look that way but honestly there was no way it was every gonna be anything other than DRX and TOP coming out of that pool. Riot is quite simply fucked no matter what they do. But man is it funny to make fun of the TSM fanboys who didn't see this coming and thought The Berger King and his Zillean would lead a charge deep into the tournament. One of the best tournaments I can remember for League was IPL5. which was of course, a double elim tournament. It did have a group component but it was for seeding into the winners and losers brackets.
Exactly! NA deserves 3 spots. However, NA should NOT be getting a pool 1 seed. If TSM was pool 2 and LPL2 (JDG) was pool 1, we end up with the group everyone wanted: TSM/Rogue. Saying that Vietnam should be pool 1 is equally as dumb as giving NA a pool 1 seed.
Super curious (around 1:17:30 ish) - Thorin states that Rekkles has an "enormous ego". I've never had this read of Rekkles (never really an aspect of the game that I've cared about) - what is Thorin referring to?
It's well known that Thorin has always disliked Rekkles since he got the MVP over Froggen in the first week of 2014 EU LCS spring. Honestly though. I've no clue.
The current format with bo1 double round robin let's them keep a pretty consistent schedule for everything. You wanna watch fnc vs tsm, that's 16:00 CET, tune in then. Only way they get delayed is very long games, which hasn't been the case in quite some time in pro league. Bo3s are more unpredictable when it comes to time slots. Could be one reason they want to keep it like this. Kind of playing devils advocate here, as I watch almost all of world's as vods, but I could see riot thinking like this.
TSM deservers the flame. However, regarding the region. TL was the best NA team this year. They had the best record, was 1st seed during NA playoffs, and performed the best in Worlds. The question was the new playoff structure and how TSM got swept in round one and came out to win the championship. TL was better than other "regions". So NA is still the 4th region. NA is still bad.
I would say TL performed the best but they also had the second easiest group in group stage. FLY had the same record as TL in a group featuring tourney favorites Top Esports and dark horse contenders DRX as well as (arguably) the strongest wildcard region team from playins, and FLY went 3-3 taking a game off of Top and were the only team in the group to beat Top (in a game where Top hadn't even locked #1 yet). Whereas TL dropped a random game vs Machi and also even lost to FLY in their bo5 to make finals in NA. Not to say FLY was way above TL or anything (the first UoL game was shaky af for one) but the two were comparable. And at the end of the day, both went even in their group, were pretty competitive despite stiff competition, and *weren't even the #1 seed from NA.* TSM were the #1 team from NA and the team who beat FLY and TL to make and win finals, and they beat GG and C9 as well; they were definitively "the best" team from NA at worlds. And they were even gifted a pretty free group, with a Fnatic team who were shaky and inconsistent, an LGD team who struggled in bo1s vs wildcard teams, and Gen.G who, while solid, were relatively slow going in their draft/playstyle and had to deal with Ruler suffering from an ear infection early on. Playoff form TSM could and should have been contenders no problem...and they laid a goose egg instead.
@@Mrryn I understand what you are saying and agree with a lot of it. But UOL was bad in Knock outs and went 0-6. 2 of Flyquest wins were against UOL. If you include the play-in groups as well, TL shows they did admirable. TL went 4-1 and dominated that. So overall they went 7-3 in worlds. Which goes to show that as bad as NA is compared to LPL-EU-LCK, they are still above the wildcard regions. Which was more of my point about Thorin's and Monte's salt about NA. I think the rise of EU has contributed to this sentiment. I don't think G2 will win, but like last year, they have a chance and how EU has remained competitive shows that NA is below our expectations of where they should be. My overall point is NA is still the 4th best region. The problem is NA is not close to 3rd so I agree with part of Monte/Thorin's sentiments.
@@MrNodeee @Monsoohn I'm sorry but what? UoL bad in knockouts? If you meant group stage then yeah, they were a step below the rest of the teams in groups like FLY was but even then, they were on the cusp of winning their first game vs FLY. Or if you're talking about playins, UoL came in 2nd in their group that also included LGD and PSG (who had Kongyue and Uniboy and were basically a better version than their normal level) and lost the tiebreaker for 1st and autoqualification to PSG. Or if you're talking about knockouts of playins, UoL 3-0 swept Supermassive who were the ones who knocked out MAD Lions from playins. So really, I don't see the point you're trying to make here; UoL were considered the strongest wildcard region team, half memed as the secret 5th EU seed at worlds, and one that was rumored to be beating LEC teams in scrims regularly in the regular season. At the very least they were seen as comparable if not outright better than the PCS teams like Machi and PSG going into worlds and, really, playins proved they pretty much were (barring again the impromptu PSG PCS superteam having to sub in players for their usual mid-jungle by snagging the superstar PCS mid-jungle duo from ahq). Essentially, pre-groups analysts had neither FLY or UoL getting out but opinions were mixed on who would be last in the group, that's how close they were in terms of perceived power level. Also TL went 4-1 in playins groups (being the only team to give INTZ a win at worlds and winning a tiebreaker vs Legacy) and 3-3 in groups...that makes it 7-4 overall, not 7-3. Minor math hiccup, just pointing that out. But overall I'm in agreement. NA, sad as it is as a NA fan, is the 4th major region and basically the gatekeeper for the minor regions. But it's deservedly so and proven repeatedly; NA has never failed in playins but now both the old LMS (now PCS who has been demoted to VCS level) and EU have dropped out before group stage and even China's 4th seed was dangerously close. And considering the remainder of NA back home, teams like C9 and GG who were roughly on par with the rest of NA (and could have levelled up their play the same as if not moreso even than FLY or TL), it's conceivable that while NA's ceiling isn't as high, its floor isn't that low either. Compare to some absolute stinker level teams in LCK and even in the LPL (as someone who watched the regular season for every major region), the difference between NA and the rest of the major regions isn't overall power but the ceiling of their top 1-2 teams; all of these regions are so absurdly top heavy, it's insane, but the sheer mechanical difference is what carries the rest of them half the time. That and TSM being a dumpsterfire as soon as they hit the stage at worlds and see international nameplates.
Fly have the better record vs top na teams and the wt roster win rate was tied with tl they finish with the better win streak and they get back to back finals
30:45 TRUE THORIN TRUE THAT IS NOT THAT PLAYERS FAULT THAT IS THE OWNER/STAFF/COACHES. RIDICLOUS WHY WOULD THEY EVEN HAVE A SAY. THEY REFUSE, THEY ARE FIRED.
Same thing I said to the other guy: you can’t argue in hindsight like this. No system should ever be designed so as to account for situations in which the worse team wins the split. Beat the teams you are better than, period. That is how any format should be designed.
@@cannonpalms4249 you need to consider historical evidence when balancing region slots. Who is replacing NA’s third seed? I see only two options - additional play in teams, which NA 3 seed has historically smashed (look at the history of play ins), or LCK 4 seed, which based on available evidence is similarly iffy. How do you propose assessing comparative regional strength? Just declare 9 EU teams better than NA? No, you apply historical evidence, as riot has done, and you don’t overreact to a 1 seed going 0-6. Based on the totality of that evidence NA deserves three seeds. To me the 1 seed argument is much stronger, because of the history of NA 1 seeds flaming out in groups, as compared to something like LPL 2 seeds.
Why would TES not care about first seed? No way they want to get DWG first round. The only team it didn't matter to at all was FLY and they still found motivation
yeah, that point was a bit silly. Of course, TES will have to beat the best teams to win it all, but there is obvious value to seeing the strategies of the strongest teams play Bo5 before meeting them. DWG will likely play Bo5 differently than they play Bo1.
@@torbjrnbakke5608 It does matter though. TES winning that game means they have two opportunities to secure 1st seed. I have no clue how anyone can argue this. Do people play any competitive sports or watch it?
The part about sports is so true. Couple of years ago when I played duo with friends it was such a nightmare to play with "nerds" who had never played any sports. Never understood until then how much easier it is to play with people who are used to having their flaws pointed out to them. Say one word to the guy with no sports background and they just shutdown completely.
100 Thieves is trying hard to develop talent as well. Next and Academy are developing talent, just not to the same degree as C9. But second to C9 is still much more than the rest.
Hey! I was wondering about the reasoning of why riot would want to avoid having two same regions teams in groups and I would guess that then collusion would be more possible as for example two european teams in one group could just decide the fate of the group by trading games. Winning or losing on purpose so both team advances. Losing a game if another teams need a victory and you are eliminated already. For example 2018 group A PVB was elimialnated before they game against FW and if FW wins they play tiebreak vs Afreeca FW lose they play vs G2 for second. PVB won and helped G2 to have a chance of performing. And now imagine scenario if PVB played another team from Vietnam. Would they win and deny team from their region from top8? Theoreticly no, because of fair rules, but practicaly I guess they would. Having one team per region in groups deny of posibility to manipulate current group format.
I'm pretty sure the potential of sandbagging is why its done the way it is. That said I have my doubts that it would actually happen. And I think it kills some of the fun of having draws if we have so many "exceptions" that the draw ends up sometimes feeling pointless.
In the old days of league, when tournaments were small, they ran into this issue many many times. Usually when the a smaller team was paid to sack games. Second I think they want to see interregional play as well. We don't get to see LGD vs Fnatic, but we see LGD vs Suning at least twice.
I’m going to go a different way and say that it’s simply more competitive and more entertaining to see matchups between different regions rather than matchups we have already seen potentially 5-6 times thus far that year. I challenge either commenter to produce an example of *PAID SANDBAGGING* in the history of international league of legends competition. Surely that is pure conspiracy theory.
I don't 100% know how NA teams operate but, it seems like NA orgs - besides C9 and TL (maybe) - are completely oblivious to the business model developed academy systems provide. Developing native players to sell on for a million dollars each, with sell-on clauses included surely must be a valid strategy. Besides, they get the benefit of just keeping the best players, and can try to negotiate buy-back clauses to allow weaker players to develop in main team rosters for a year or two. All of this already exists in traditional sports so it's not that hard to imagine.
I fukin love listen to thorin speaking about tsm... Tsm fans must know, man speaking facts and then give his opinion, and god hes right most of the time..
I agree with Thorin, LCS doesn't deserve 3 slots, they don't even deserve 2 if we're being honest here. Have NA take up 1 slot and have them as a minor region team and bring in other minor region teams to fill in the slots.
Speaking from a profit, money, investor background only. Brand is everything in the U.S. and for a lot of the world right now but our financial ecosystem is built that way and it has been scaling up to that level for decades, I'm fairly new to LoL and E-sports as a hold but I can tell you that the 1st thing I thought was this could be a good way to make money and ideas are many because of the branding recognition, buying and marketable power from within the states at least in the markets that matter such as CA, NY, etc. Also the power it has to reach other markets that we love " China " because of the buying power there as well. Brand, profits and keeping your shareholders happy is all that matters here and we've been doing amazing right lol but I do understand your concerns and developing a plan that works to address every deficiency in NA is a long time undertaking and you need to start from the top, coaching, front office, support all of that needs restructuring, we need more education, especially within the community or people who have an impact such as this program and others who I honestly don't have a lot of clues but complain too much and yes is the way they make their money but they're also part of the problem because they don't have any solid ideas that will actually work in a real time scenario while taking into consideration every little detail not just what their brains and rants tells them, hence why they are here making videos and not in a top position were they can help make decisions. I do agree with our player pool lacking competitive juices, harsh environment life experiences that certainly can add to someone becoming more competitive and a better pro, we actually see that in other sports from a international level to domestic, in Soccer or futbol there's tons of talent from South America, Africa who migrate to Europe for a reason and that's because the UK and other nations just don't produce world champion level players, Spain and Germany have been a beacon of light in this regard alongside Portugal who also export a lot of talent but again trying to find a single solution for every sport problem is just a dead end, you have to re-invent, adjust, evolve to new environments every year if you wanna be competitive. NA does have a problem with infrastructure but is the same problem happening in our soccer system as well, we just can't figure out how to produce these top level players yet because there's a lot of variable that require change and our culture is not build that way! take F1 or any world level team competition aside from basketball in a Olympic setting, the U.S. doesn't produce top level talent in a lot of sports, aside from the few cases like Serena Williams in Tennis name another top player? Golf who is mostly represented by another African American etc. and it goes on and on, We have to understand our shortcomings as well to produce positive results as well.
I still think OG from Dota2 is the better version of G2. OG truly understood the game on a better level for the past two TI's and although they had no definable style they still beat everyone else because they understood the fundamentals of Dota2 better than anyone else. Timing pushes, item spikes, buybacks, everything.
We need to see how FNC play when Nemesis is not on Ori/Lucian, stylistically when he has those champs FNC are tier 1 this worlds. I think they’re being underrated, their team play between the aggro shotcallers Bwipo/Selfmade/Hylissan is absolutely nuts. Bwipo mentioned the idea of ‘one screen’ in the LGD domination win, if they have that it’s at least a 3:2 but realistically if Nemesis gets champ pool’d it’s probably done.
So when Kobe played "bad", TSM replaced him. Now Doublelift has given us an out-of-our-mind performance. Will they now replace the president's fuckboi too?
@Seth Kros okay and? FNC still made it to finals. We were told that the problem was jg and team not knowing how to play. We got rid of both and have only just now found and identity and a great jg... where did YB's team end up?
Yeah, the idea that they made NA 3rd seed do play ins, and yet didn't slot down top 2 NA teams a pool each, is and was ridiculous. It was never the NA 3rd seeds that embarrassed the region, because you can't blame a team like TL finishing behind G2 and SNG, especially when they won games against each. And that's not the first time our 1st seed was our worst team. Just give NA pool 2, pool 3, and pool 4/play ins seed. They deserve nothing more.
not a big fan of groups for sure but i feel it will take away from the more casual viewer forexample tsm fans will only be watching challenger series if thats the case.
Didn't goldenglue have a "career" in american football or something and then got into league? So technically there is 1 NA player with that kind of story even if he isnt a great one
I think if C9 couldn't even beat TSM in their current form they probably would've been even worse at worlds but who knows, maybe they just had a bad day vs TSM and FLY and they woulda made it to quarters. But the only reason i'm glad they didn't get to go is cause they were way to cocky and overconfident all year long, they seemed to overlook domestic competition just like TSM did the past 2 years and it caused them to miss worlds. The whole team thought it was just everybody else fighting for the last 2 worlds spots, turns out they shoulda been watching their back instead of looking through the binoculars.
C9 would do bad at worlds due to blabber not playing well when he doesn't have 3 winning lanes and nisqy getting outclassed by far weaker opposition. C9 would def do far better than TSM as they typically level up their play in boot camp and play the comps that give them best chance to win whereas TSM try to replicate what the best teams do and copy/paste it while having far weaker players trying to execute it.
@@Gurpreet-sv5zg Yeah i feel that, it seems like TSM (in particular bjerg, DL and Parth) have the mindset of playing perfectly and playing the "optimal" way. Rather than focusing on playing the best they can play with the players and skills they have.
Bjergsen is the most overrated western player ever. Time and time again he has proven he can be one of the best in NA but completely shits the bed internationally. People love to forget that Nemesis in his first year achieved more then Bjergsen did in 7 years at worlds. Getting out of the SKT, RNG group and actually being FNC's best performing member at worlds 2019. I however think that despite that, if FNC wants to win worlds, they do need a worldclass midlaner like Caps or since that isnt an option a new talent like a Larssen or Humanoid.
in regards to improving as a region or chances for talent: American Football in Germany gets more and more popular as a sport. We don't have the college system here and our players in the german league are not comparable to the NFL because they usually start relatively late learning football under good coaches etc. so chances of going from the german league to the NFL and perform on a good level (or even get the chance) is relatively low but what some ex-players started doing was organizing young interested kids from Germany to enlist in american highschool and colleges to follow basically the same training and process as the NFL talents and then either getting a chance there or in the worst case they come back as better players to Germany to enrich the player pool there and if you have good players in the league usually it will improve the league overall step by step. Focus on the problems you can solve not the things you can't change.
no flame that would be so good, try to import a top mid in the world, bjerg to support or he retires, DL to support or he retires, and sign a rookie adc, also get a rookie sub for bb and a rookie sub for spica. New coaching staff too.
Why is that after every NA's poor performance, it becomes such an urgent matter to try to "fix NA"? Why does people outside of that region even care or debate around that topic? They have their problems, but other regions also have their own. EU for example definitely have a lot to work on in terms of scounting the talent in ERL's and setting the proper infrastructure and practice regime, and porbably many more if they want to be competitive against CN teams. However seemingly not many people debate around those issues and how to tackle them, why not? NA wasn't supposed to be good in the first place, and that should be clear as of now. The player-base is small; as far as I know the gaming in North America is more often casual or about consoles, not the PC games, therefore the level of NA is right where it supposed to be. If anything NA's level is actually artificially boosted by imports because of the always present Riot's bias towards NA; in terms of imports ruling, for example: TL have 4 imported players in the roster and FLY have 3, that should't be allowed. Also it's ridiculous that theoretically if some of the European players ever wanted to return to EU, they would be counted as an "imports". What's the point of splitting in regions, if the talent on a roster doesn't come from that region? Shouldn't region's strenght be reflection of a talent actually coming from that region? And some of the fans still want Riot to implement more changes to help NA, while other regions are on their own? NA really thinks that World should orbit around them? That they are entitled to anything more than they've got? I only feel sorry for some NA fans who were in this from the beginning, they should have stopped supporting their teams and LCS long time ago, but it's on them really. NA is bad, and they deserve to be bad with how much advantage they always had with money and Riot acting in their favor. Now is the time for Riot to actually turn away from NA and put their priority in supporting and advertasing the regions that deserve it more. The region in the west that should be the most prioritized is EU.
NA has the money. They have a million dollar state of the art facility. They have an abundance of coaching staff to fill their team. Teams with far less resources are performing far better than NA teams. NA team lack talent? Import top of the line EU players or mid tier KR talent. NA lack coaches? Bring in KR coaches. NA need additional practice? Fly them in first class to boot camp. Worry about financial stress? Don't be you get paid far more than any regions sans China. NA has barriers that make them difficult to compete but lets not pretend that other regions sans China don't have the barriers that NA have. I doubt putting more money in EU will accomplish anything. If it was, EU would be paying far better in terms of pay and facilities. They don't. You make far more money in the esport scene in NA. Even CSGO that is popularized in EU still had top of the teams needing to bet money against themselves to make bank. That says a lot about the scene.
@@DrakeSilver that no na team did well so it doesn’t matter if team liquid came or not, they did the best but our best wasn’t even making it out of groups
@@Rommel12 Tbh who would you replace it with? A lot of people want more wildcards but the reality is viewership goes way way way up when you put in another major region team. Personally would keep the same system and have KR and LPL both with 4 seed and LEC/LCS with 3 seed. LCS 1st seed downgraded to pool 2.
i think virtually every NA csgo pro played a sport at a high level and got injured, i know off the top of my head both n0thing and tarik have stories like that. so basically just ignore everything monte says around the 24 minute mark. just cuz ur geeky ass didn't do anything but sit in front of a pc all day doesn't mean u can just hard generalize across the entire US. he has NO stats to back this up of course, just spewing complete nonsense
Its a good show.. but dudes when almost half of the show is ranting on tsm.. this should be a show... not a way to manifest your own frustrations. Specially thorin. And Monte no one is talking about the shitshow u made on Renegades. Move on, give us content thats what we like. Not the hate though. #cringe
Tsm just gave whole other meaning to its team name. Threw Six Matches
0:00 Start, TSM as a pool 1 team going 0-6, format discussion - Here’s to the Zeroes by Marianas Trench
19:30 Kold joins the show, very brief discussion of him being a coach, then switching to discussion of NA, infrastructure and cultural issues - No Filter by Hit the Lights
33:37 The prodigal son of NA - Superman by Ivory Layne
37:10 Training new players being the way forward? TheCaseStudy of TheShy - Life is Looking Up by Forgive Durden
47:23 TSM TSM TSM - Ms. Crumby by The Audition
59:21 Level 1s - The Lonely One by Let It Happen
1:04:15 Quarter final matchups, FNC and TES - Down & Out by Foxtrot & the Get Down
1:18:00 Jungle in the worlds meta - Baba O’Riley by The Who
1:28:58 G2 vs GEN - Hawaii (Stay Awake) by Waterparks (my reaction when I saw this bracket draw)
1:37:03 Singing the praises of G2 - Flyers by BRADIO
1:48:02 More TSM ranting - Paper Tigers by Envoi (you have no idea how happy I was to see that Envoi made two new songs when I checked on them)
1:57:27 DRX and DMG - A Little Bit More by You, Me, And Everyone We Know (this song is sung from DRX’s perspective)
2:00:03 SN vs JDG - The Ruse & the Caper by Coyote Theory
2:06:19 Final predictions - More by Lawrence
2:14:35 More discussion of formats - Figure Me Out by The Summer Set
👍
0:00 Start, TSM as a pool 1 team going 0-6, format discussion
19:30 Kold joins the show, very brief discussion of him being a coach, then switching to discussion of NA, infrastructure and cultural issues
33:37 The prodigal son of NA
37:10 Training new players being the way forward?
47:23 TSM TSM TSM
59:21 Level 1s
1:04:15 Quarter final matchups, FNC and TES
1:18:00 Jungle in the worlds meta
1:28:58 G2 vs GEN
1:37:03 Singing the praises of G2
1:48:02 More TSM ranting
1:57:27 DRX and DMG
2:00:03 SN vs JDG
2:06:19 Final predictions
2:14:35 More discussion of formats
This should be pinned and Sir Rewcal you are the hero.
Thorins waited a long time to cash this in
Could be a yearly event if TSM make it to world next year.
@@MichikoHoshi you must be new, this is a yearly event
@@TriDevious It isn't yearly if they fail to make it to world next year, just like they haven't been able to for the past 2 years.
@@MichikoHoshi still a yearly event it's just normally about why they didn't make it.
@@MichikoHoshi 😂😂😂
One reason i love summoning insight is how they make certain topics sound so epic
I feel like i have been listening to the "How to fix NA SCENE" discussion for about a decade now
Technically you have
At this point I think it's kind of fun that NA's results are so predictably terrible. It's fun.
NA did better than expected this worlds tbh, if any of them had advanced out of groups it would be a shocker
I'll give you that it is predictable.
@@Jooffee NA performed as usual. Every year, world lowers expectations for NA, and every year this region manages to find new ways to disappoint.
it's always nice to see Monte and Thorin smiling when they're bashing TSM xD
5 minutes in we already shat on TSM, NA's first seed, and NA's overall 3 seeds...best episode ever
You probably should have watched another minute before commenting, seeing as though TL and FLY weren’t shit on at all.
@@cannonpalms4249 talking about revoking NA's 3rd seed
I am masochistic in that as a fan I root for TSM every season, yet I enjoy when Monte and Thorin rip TSM apart
Isn't that masochistic? Sadistic would be if you get pleasure from doing the ripping rather than receiving the ripping.
@@jackx410 yeah you right Jeff, I’ll edit it haha
i'm in the same boat TSM fan but also like monte/thorin
@@jonathanmorris8197 yeah it's normal. I'm a Fnatic fan but still enjoy when Thorin rips on Rekkles... although I have to admit that the opportunity to rip on Fnatic is a lil more rare this season than it has been for TSM lul
Same
Can you guys please put these on Spotify again
Preach
Yeah. Listening to SI made commuting much more pleasing once a week.
5:18 LCS 3rd spot has always outperformed all minor regions 1st seed. They also outperform the 4th seeds of LPL and LEC. The problem isn't 3 LCS seeds. The problem is giving NA a pool 1 seed. The only pool 1 seeds should be LEC1, LPL1, LCK1, and the 2 seed of whoever won the last worlds or MSI.
Vietnam or PCS equally don't deserve pool 1 seeds.
i could watch Thorin and Monte all day everyday!
Surprising to read some comments about not liking Kold’s appearance here. I thought he was a solid guest and I’d like to see more with him. Good introduction to Kold for me
I bloody love Monte, i could watch him review league all day
When will Summoning Insight be uploaded to podcast platforms again? It’s my favourite (and most convenient) way to consume the show.
You don’t wanna see Thorin’s facial expressions when he talk about TSM?
@@nguyentri3608 he's probably listening while commuting. I do this a lot too or when walking the dog whatever.
If you get TH-cam premium, you can download it and watch in the background
@@iainchurchill yeah that would be cool but meh don't want to pay when there are so many free podcasts
He said fairly recently that they will never put them back on podcast format again. Cant remember the exact reason. But I feel.you man. Sorry
As a C9 fan, I can't wait for this.
I didnt Think any American would have the balls to sit through this. Thumbs up and my condolences
@@Dankness31 I always root against TSM so this brought a lot of joy to me. No condolences necessary.
@@RaggedM88 that's kind of petty, I despise the way OG plays but I'd still root for them if they somehow stumbled their way to an international tournament
@@dislexyc you do you. And I’ll continue hating TSM to my heart’s content.
@@Dankness31 Those of us who remember history were prepared for this.
35:42 Wise words to live by
That was straight fire lol
Doublelift
MAD Lions are actually in Spain, it's that they're a subsidiary of a Canadian Company
Kold is such a good guest, would love to see him back for another episode
"Pussy can drag you farther than dynamite can blow you." Damn, finer words have never been uttered.
Hopefully we will get to see LS on this
that reverse prodigal son bit about doublelift is fucking hilarious (ends ~35:40ish)
"Pussy can drag you, further than dynamite can blow you"
That is some straight fire life advice. Im gonna use this. Thank you thorin.
Hoooly crap man the prodigal son Doublelift story had my absolutely dying with laughter
The only bo5 I'm really curious about is the G2 vs GenG one. The meta has never been worse for g2, perkz is stuck on real adcs without long casts or cc which generally makes him look like a below average adc (with an incredible support). Jankos is stuck on carry junglers and is constantly behind on farm in every match up because he dosen't play them like carry junglers. Caps looks confused when he needs to set up for jungler instead of the other way around but is still a very good laner.
They are an incredible team but this truly is nightmare material in terms of meta. The way they communicate and talk about the game is incredible but having a meta where crabs and dragon is so high value that you can't really give it is so straight forward that it forces a certain game state with a bunch of early 4v4 or 5v5 until the 15-17 min mark. If the opposing team is stronger it literally forces certain types of execution in the current meta where you follow a script. The only way you can break the dragon force early is if you can dive top/mid/bot and get the full tower with herald after and make up for losing double drake or trading drake because it gives a huge enough lead where you can just shift that lead to win the inevitable next 5v5 at 3rd drake. But assuming you can't break the game in either side lane or mid you actually have to fight drake after the 15-17 min mark. Assuming you don't scale you lose the second you don't get in control of the game with certain comps, you either need massive scaling that come online really early and somehow get a drake early from bot pressure or break a lane to get an earlier powerspike. Herald is only good if you break tower because at that point you get ~1000 gold, 320 gold for herald is not a good trade in terms of time realisticly because of the tempo you lose as jungler.
It's really unfortunate that every good team figured out how you could abuse the current dragon changes, coupled with jungle exp. The meta has never had less complexity from my point of view as I could figure out the basics of it. The way teams rotate I think an amateur team could figure out, the execution of lane phase and fights is basicly the decider (a lot of games is lost pre 10 mins aswell even lv 1 some of them). Try to cover herald fight if you have stronger 4v4 assuming any of your towers are sensitive or lanes are unstable (gankable while under pressure). If this isn't possible just hold tp for top dive or cover sensitive lane with jungler and the herald is useless. If you get into a scenario where you are sensitive to dives and have to give herald because of weaker or even fights and have a weaker 2v2 top and mid first 15 (after 15 you have to fight), pick bard to cover first tower with herald despite griefing bot lane a bit.
The only place people fail right now is mid game execution i.e setup around drakes late game or towers (or basic map reads). If you flip the game over baron with better scaling and you can't break inhib or end with baron, did you really need to force fights at baron unless they start it and you are in a bad position? Do you really need herald if they can't fight you and you can't break a tower with it and risk a smite burger flip when you could literally perma cover it with top, mid if they are winning and risk a fight with bad positioning. Now all off a sudden a bad death away from losing.
I think the meta is a bit to directed at large fights, I wish they could make it possible to outplay the current dragon force or have viable choices to the early aram / dragon fights.
Perks played really well in group stage? Particularly in late game teamfights. I agree this hasn't been a good summer split for Perkz, but I at least saw a massive improvement between LEC finals and the group stage of worlds. Both Ezreal and Senna are meta/playable and he looks great on both, We will have to see how deep that champion pool goes though.
The Jankos criticism is way more valid, and I actually think its a mid/jungle problem in that Caps/Jankos always previously played with Caps as the carry and Jankos supporting him. Now in this meta you are required to do the opposite, with the midlane sheltering the jungle and G2 looks super uncomfortable with it in general. I think we can expect G2 to play at least one game of aggro jungle, similar to the way SOFM played Lee and J4. While it isn't as powerful as the meta, is it counter-meta in the same way engage supports were counter meta in the dark days of ardent censer. I think g2 will do really well this tournament if they can pull off that secondary style and win games with it, while they won't if they just have to play farm jungle every game.
I agree that the macro game seems way more basic atm. I do think it opens up more if you get to a mid/late game state without either team threatening soul point. I think I favor G2 against GenG because I don't see GenG breaking open and winning the game early. I worry about G2 vs Damwon and Chinese teams though, because they are all trying to win the game before 15, which prevents g2 from using their creativity.
@@-MisterWhite...
I don't agree with what you said about perkz ezreal games, I think perkz got caught first in 2 or 3 fights in the first game on ezreal (1). None of them being flanks and one being a plain naut hook (with flash and e up) or completely no reaction to rene walking up or in to flash range if I remember correctly, the game he played really well is the senna game and that was the last game of groups. He played one fight well in the ez game, but that kind off dosen't forgive almost losing the game alone (this is after he got qss). He has a VERY good senna but I think it is the only champ he plays to the level of the other top players in the tournament. He also has a very good idea of how he should use ashe r in comparison to some other adcs but his kiting or dodging on ashe specificly isn't that sick when you compare to top adcs (he sometimes kites away from team, cancels autos etc i.e. he gets overwhelmed a bit like lower tier adcs sometimes and don't do the right play naturely, it will most likely come with time if he continues playing adc).
But I absolutely agree with what you said if we only talk about his senna, he looks very good on senna I think.
(1) If you want to watch his games and compare to somebody like ruler, jackeylove or even rekkles playing ezreal, I would recommend watching ruler play ez vs tsm at worlds for what a good preformance can look like in a similar game (tsm also both has worse execution and team fighting than suning but I still think it's a very similar game), he obviously played one more but got completely griefed with both lane picks and support in that game).
So the reason I'm worried they might lose is because as I said you can't avoid 5v5s (look 2) even in the mid or latter part of the game, and if we talk about ability to pure 5v5, I don't see or have g2 winning. I think it's the opposite of what you said, I think G2 have pressure to break the game early vs GenG and not the other way around. The reason for that being is that GenG will most likely pick slower champs than g2 like they've done the entire year (even though it looks like they upped the pace a bit for worlds) and play around ruler which I consider to be a better player than perkz in team fights in general. Another potential win condition is the fact that GenG don't have as high prio on senna as G2 which might allow for only senna games.
(2) So the reason you usually can't avoid dragon fights even though it involves baron late game is because the team that has worse scalling usually needs soul to kind of break the game in the late game. So assuming equal or similar scalling or the fact that you are fairly ahead with the worse scalling but not to the point of having full map control, in these 2 scenarios the game usually has a lot of marco still. Stuff like wave pressure, good set ups and expecting rotations into areas, smart recall tps, stuff like this could happen but very unlikely to be the case in this series.
So the way G2 wins is through killing and/or diving top and then getting 3 plates into herald and gg, the top gap in this game looks huge from the games I've seen Wunder play. Assuming G2 gets camille a single game I think that game would be a instaloss for GenG just with how hard you can force dives and pressure top with that pick. The potential way G2 wins late game is also a bit back to perkz, assuming he can get senna every or a lot of the games would mean they absolutely have potential to win late game fights. I don't think this is as true for a couple of the other champs (he might prove me wrong). Bdd has not looked that sick this tournament which I have to say is another potential vulnerability for gen g, as I said before caps is a very good 1v1 player and in terms of pure laning there is a chance he can lane kingdom through mid and dominate the map this game and break the game that way. That being said bdd is a very good player and he looked very stable and strong in the games I've seen from LCK. Still something to watch out for.
@@TheLillepojken there is a lot of power in being concise my friend. I only read the first paragraph of your first comment and just wanted to say that you make it seem like getting the first 2 or even 3 dragons is an auto win, and you have to trade a full tower for first dragon. That’s just blowing things way out of proportion, 4th dragon only matters, which spawn around what 25 minutes usually? That means the other team has 25 minutes to collect enough of a gold lead to beat the dragon team by then. More than enough. There’s been enough games at worlds that showed this, team x gets all the dragons but loses out on gold and eventually team y is just too strong and wins.
@@raedos1 Just read the full thing if you want to know what my point is. I don't type my message for you, but rather for somebody interested in reading and myself.
NA's third seed usually does the best though, maybe 3 teams but 2 have to do play ins?
Here's the problem, if NA had only one slot. That one slot would have been TSM, and look how well they did. Our other two slots did way better. Hell Liquid very nearly made it out of groups. Flyquest's scoreline makes it look that way but honestly there was no way it was every gonna be anything other than DRX and TOP coming out of that pool. Riot is quite simply fucked no matter what they do. But man is it funny to make fun of the TSM fanboys who didn't see this coming and thought The Berger King and his Zillean would lead a charge deep into the tournament.
One of the best tournaments I can remember for League was IPL5. which was of course, a double elim tournament. It did have a group component but it was for seeding into the winners and losers brackets.
hindsight analysis. The solution is simple: don’t lose to shit teams in regional playoffs.
liquid nearly made it -_- lol thank god. now we dont have watch one sided knockout stage games
TSM winning the split was a fluke anyway
Exactly! NA deserves 3 spots.
However, NA should NOT be getting a pool 1 seed. If TSM was pool 2 and LPL2 (JDG) was pool 1, we end up with the group everyone wanted: TSM/Rogue.
Saying that Vietnam should be pool 1 is equally as dumb as giving NA a pool 1 seed.
@@awung11 well Vietnam is next region to dominate lol esports after lpl lck
Banger of an episode
Super curious (around 1:17:30 ish) - Thorin states that Rekkles has an "enormous ego". I've never had this read of Rekkles (never really an aspect of the game that I've cared about) - what is Thorin referring to?
It's well known that Thorin has always disliked Rekkles since he got the MVP over Froggen in the first week of 2014 EU LCS spring.
Honestly though. I've no clue.
The current format with bo1 double round robin let's them keep a pretty consistent schedule for everything. You wanna watch fnc vs tsm, that's 16:00 CET, tune in then. Only way they get delayed is very long games, which hasn't been the case in quite some time in pro league.
Bo3s are more unpredictable when it comes to time slots.
Could be one reason they want to keep it like this. Kind of playing devils advocate here, as I watch almost all of world's as vods, but I could see riot thinking like this.
TSM deservers the flame. However, regarding the region. TL was the best NA team this year. They had the best record, was 1st seed during NA playoffs, and performed the best in Worlds. The question was the new playoff structure and how TSM got swept in round one and came out to win the championship. TL was better than other "regions". So NA is still the 4th region. NA is still bad.
I would say TL performed the best but they also had the second easiest group in group stage. FLY had the same record as TL in a group featuring tourney favorites Top Esports and dark horse contenders DRX as well as (arguably) the strongest wildcard region team from playins, and FLY went 3-3 taking a game off of Top and were the only team in the group to beat Top (in a game where Top hadn't even locked #1 yet). Whereas TL dropped a random game vs Machi and also even lost to FLY in their bo5 to make finals in NA.
Not to say FLY was way above TL or anything (the first UoL game was shaky af for one) but the two were comparable. And at the end of the day, both went even in their group, were pretty competitive despite stiff competition, and *weren't even the #1 seed from NA.* TSM were the #1 team from NA and the team who beat FLY and TL to make and win finals, and they beat GG and C9 as well; they were definitively "the best" team from NA at worlds. And they were even gifted a pretty free group, with a Fnatic team who were shaky and inconsistent, an LGD team who struggled in bo1s vs wildcard teams, and Gen.G who, while solid, were relatively slow going in their draft/playstyle and had to deal with Ruler suffering from an ear infection early on. Playoff form TSM could and should have been contenders no problem...and they laid a goose egg instead.
@@Mrryn I understand what you are saying and agree with a lot of it. But UOL was bad in Knock outs and went 0-6. 2 of Flyquest wins were against UOL. If you include the play-in groups as well, TL shows they did admirable. TL went 4-1 and dominated that. So overall they went 7-3 in worlds. Which goes to show that as bad as NA is compared to LPL-EU-LCK, they are still above the wildcard regions. Which was more of my point about Thorin's and Monte's salt about NA. I think the rise of EU has contributed to this sentiment. I don't think G2 will win, but like last year, they have a chance and how EU has remained competitive shows that NA is below our expectations of where they should be. My overall point is NA is still the 4th best region. The problem is NA is not close to 3rd so I agree with part of Monte/Thorin's sentiments.
@@MrNodeee @Monsoohn I'm sorry but what? UoL bad in knockouts? If you meant group stage then yeah, they were a step below the rest of the teams in groups like FLY was but even then, they were on the cusp of winning their first game vs FLY. Or if you're talking about playins, UoL came in 2nd in their group that also included LGD and PSG (who had Kongyue and Uniboy and were basically a better version than their normal level) and lost the tiebreaker for 1st and autoqualification to PSG. Or if you're talking about knockouts of playins, UoL 3-0 swept Supermassive who were the ones who knocked out MAD Lions from playins. So really, I don't see the point you're trying to make here; UoL were considered the strongest wildcard region team, half memed as the secret 5th EU seed at worlds, and one that was rumored to be beating LEC teams in scrims regularly in the regular season. At the very least they were seen as comparable if not outright better than the PCS teams like Machi and PSG going into worlds and, really, playins proved they pretty much were (barring again the impromptu PSG PCS superteam having to sub in players for their usual mid-jungle by snagging the superstar PCS mid-jungle duo from ahq). Essentially, pre-groups analysts had neither FLY or UoL getting out but opinions were mixed on who would be last in the group, that's how close they were in terms of perceived power level.
Also TL went 4-1 in playins groups (being the only team to give INTZ a win at worlds and winning a tiebreaker vs Legacy) and 3-3 in groups...that makes it 7-4 overall, not 7-3. Minor math hiccup, just pointing that out.
But overall I'm in agreement. NA, sad as it is as a NA fan, is the 4th major region and basically the gatekeeper for the minor regions. But it's deservedly so and proven repeatedly; NA has never failed in playins but now both the old LMS (now PCS who has been demoted to VCS level) and EU have dropped out before group stage and even China's 4th seed was dangerously close. And considering the remainder of NA back home, teams like C9 and GG who were roughly on par with the rest of NA (and could have levelled up their play the same as if not moreso even than FLY or TL), it's conceivable that while NA's ceiling isn't as high, its floor isn't that low either. Compare to some absolute stinker level teams in LCK and even in the LPL (as someone who watched the regular season for every major region), the difference between NA and the rest of the major regions isn't overall power but the ceiling of their top 1-2 teams; all of these regions are so absurdly top heavy, it's insane, but the sheer mechanical difference is what carries the rest of them half the time. That and TSM being a dumpsterfire as soon as they hit the stage at worlds and see international nameplates.
Fly have the better record vs top na teams and the wt roster win rate was tied with tl they finish with the better win streak and they get back to back finals
@@Mrryn Honestly, I see nothing wrong with this statement, and it makes me happy.
Is this not available as a podcast anymore?
Any reason the last 2 eps have not been on Spotify? I like to listen to these while driving but TH-cam eats data
Anyone know if they're planning on doing another episode before semis?
how's that awesome new studio coming?
Does anyone know what's their stream setup/gear?
The diference in volume between Monte's and Thoorin's mics is kind of annoying
Also montes constant sniffling and breathing
30:45 TRUE THORIN TRUE THAT IS NOT THAT PLAYERS FAULT THAT IS THE OWNER/STAFF/COACHES. RIDICLOUS WHY WOULD THEY EVEN HAVE A SAY. THEY REFUSE, THEY ARE FIRED.
24:40 this is exactly the problem, or at least one of the main problems.
I enjoy Montecristo. He keeps it real ESPECIALLY when it comes to the major downsides of NA.
I’m not sure you’re right about NA losing a third slot - TL basically proved the opposite. That said, I completely agree NA doesn’t deserve a pool 1.
Same thing I said to the other guy: you can’t argue in hindsight like this. No system should ever be designed so as to account for situations in which the worse team wins the split. Beat the teams you are better than, period. That is how any format should be designed.
@@cannonpalms4249 as far as I understand just like EU/CN earned 4 slots NA received 3 slots due to C9 and TL performances in the tournaments before.
@@cannonpalms4249 you need to consider historical evidence when balancing region slots. Who is replacing NA’s third seed? I see only two options - additional play in teams, which NA 3 seed has historically smashed (look at the history of play ins), or LCK 4 seed, which based on available evidence is similarly iffy. How do you propose assessing comparative regional strength? Just declare 9 EU teams better than NA? No, you apply historical evidence, as riot has done, and you don’t overreact to a 1 seed going 0-6. Based on the totality of that evidence NA deserves three seeds. To me the 1 seed argument is much stronger, because of the history of NA 1 seeds flaming out in groups, as compared to something like LPL 2 seeds.
GSL groups would be so much better than what we have now, we had so many meaningless games this year
I wonder how Caps would look in NA.
Probably like a GOD.
Probably chubbier
Terrible. All great players stagnate in NA. It's the mulah.
WAIT WHAT!?! Monte is back!? I thought he stepped away from LoL
Really disspointing that they didnt talk about how bad dl was this world.
Year*
Imagine being that bad at worlds but also shit on every one on NA
@@PabloLopez-tz2zq he didn’t though, he was bad most of the split and playoffs. He picked it up a little bit towards the end of playoffs.
@@PabloLopez-tz2zq golden guardians would like to have a word with you
Why would TES not care about first seed? No way they want to get DWG first round. The only team it didn't matter to at all was FLY and they still found motivation
It didn't matter because regardless if they won or lost against FLY, the decider would be their game against DRX.
they can still get G2 or JDG, first seed aint that great either.
yeah, that point was a bit silly. Of course, TES will have to beat the best teams to win it all, but there is obvious value to seeing the strategies of the strongest teams play Bo5 before meeting them. DWG will likely play Bo5 differently than they play Bo1.
@@torbjrnbakke5608 It does matter though. TES winning that game means they have two opportunities to secure 1st seed. I have no clue how anyone can argue this. Do people play any competitive sports or watch it?
If your plan is to win the championship its irrelevant whether you're first or second seed if you have to beat everyone else anyway.
The part about sports is so true. Couple of years ago when I played duo with friends it was such a nightmare to play with "nerds" who had never played any sports. Never understood until then how much easier it is to play with people who are used to having their flaws pointed out to them. Say one word to the guy with no sports background and they just shutdown completely.
100 Thieves is trying hard to develop talent as well. Next and Academy are developing talent, just not to the same degree as C9. But second to C9 is still much more than the rest.
Wait so is Thorin the Charlie Parker of Esports Journalism?
Kold's view on Fanatic turned up to be pretty much spot especially the part about Rekkles
Why would riot revamp the group format in a way where NA teams will play fewer games when they get eliminated early.
Hey! I was wondering about the reasoning of why riot would want to avoid having two same regions teams in groups and I would guess that then collusion would be more possible as for example two european teams in one group could just decide the fate of the group by trading games. Winning or losing on purpose so both team advances. Losing a game if another teams need a victory and you are eliminated already. For example 2018 group A PVB was elimialnated before they game against FW and if FW wins they play tiebreak vs Afreeca FW lose they play vs G2 for second. PVB won and helped G2 to have a chance of performing. And now imagine scenario if PVB played another team from Vietnam. Would they win and deny team from their region from top8? Theoreticly no, because of fair rules, but practicaly I guess they would. Having one team per region in groups deny of posibility to manipulate current group format.
I'm pretty sure the potential of sandbagging is why its done the way it is. That said I have my doubts that it would actually happen. And I think it kills some of the fun of having draws if we have so many "exceptions" that the draw ends up sometimes feeling pointless.
In the old days of league, when tournaments were small, they ran into this issue many many times. Usually when the a smaller team was paid to sack games. Second I think they want to see interregional play as well. We don't get to see LGD vs Fnatic, but we see LGD vs Suning at least twice.
I’m going to go a different way and say that it’s simply more competitive and more entertaining to see matchups between different regions rather than matchups we have already seen potentially 5-6 times thus far that year.
I challenge either commenter to produce an example of *PAID SANDBAGGING* in the history of international league of legends competition. Surely that is pure conspiracy theory.
I don't 100% know how NA teams operate but, it seems like NA orgs - besides C9 and TL (maybe) - are completely oblivious to the business model developed academy systems provide. Developing native players to sell on for a million dollars each, with sell-on clauses included surely must be a valid strategy. Besides, they get the benefit of just keeping the best players, and can try to negotiate buy-back clauses to allow weaker players to develop in main team rosters for a year or two. All of this already exists in traditional sports so it's not that hard to imagine.
I fukin love listen to thorin speaking about tsm... Tsm fans must know, man speaking facts and then give his opinion, and god hes right most of the time..
I agree with Thorin, LCS doesn't deserve 3 slots, they don't even deserve 2 if we're being honest here. Have NA take up 1 slot and have them as a minor region team and bring in other minor region teams to fill in the slots.
Please god please can monte move his mic like 2inches further away? Id like to listen without wondering who is breathing in my ear
To prep for events it would take alot of work and investment. I am not saying they dont have the money. But it also will increase risk.
This should be tasty
Speaking from a profit, money, investor background only. Brand is everything in the U.S. and for a lot of the world right now but our financial ecosystem is built that way and it has been scaling up to that level for decades, I'm fairly new to LoL and E-sports as a hold but I can tell you that the 1st thing I thought was this could be a good way to make money and ideas are many because of the branding recognition, buying and marketable power from within the states at least in the markets that matter such as CA, NY, etc. Also the power it has to reach other markets that we love " China " because of the buying power there as well. Brand, profits and keeping your shareholders happy is all that matters here and we've been doing amazing right lol but I do understand your concerns and developing a plan that works to address every deficiency in NA is a long time undertaking and you need to start from the top, coaching, front office, support all of that needs restructuring, we need more education, especially within the community or people who have an impact such as this program and others who I honestly don't have a lot of clues but complain too much and yes is the way they make their money but they're also part of the problem because they don't have any solid ideas that will actually work in a real time scenario while taking into consideration every little detail not just what their brains and rants tells them, hence why they are here making videos and not in a top position were they can help make decisions. I do agree with our player pool lacking competitive juices, harsh environment life experiences that certainly can add to someone becoming more competitive and a better pro, we actually see that in other sports from a international level to domestic, in Soccer or futbol there's tons of talent from South America, Africa who migrate to Europe for a reason and that's because the UK and other nations just don't produce world champion level players, Spain and Germany have been a beacon of light in this regard alongside Portugal who also export a lot of talent but again trying to find a single solution for every sport problem is just a dead end, you have to re-invent, adjust, evolve to new environments every year if you wanna be competitive. NA does have a problem with infrastructure but is the same problem happening in our soccer system as well, we just can't figure out how to produce these top level players yet because there's a lot of variable that require change and our culture is not build that way! take F1 or any world level team competition aside from basketball in a Olympic setting, the U.S. doesn't produce top level talent in a lot of sports, aside from the few cases like Serena Williams in Tennis name another top player? Golf who is mostly represented by another African American etc. and it goes on and on, We have to understand our shortcomings as well to produce positive results as well.
Longest sentence ever
Thorin always goes in hard but this was raw goddamn
C9 developed Tactical, Johnsun, Spica? News to me.
2:07:45 Support???
aw man, so keen for some hot takes about astralis and tsm
I still think OG from Dota2 is the better version of G2. OG truly understood the game on a better level for the past two TI's and although they had no definable style they still beat everyone else because they understood the fundamentals of Dota2 better than anyone else. Timing pushes, item spikes, buybacks, everything.
I LOVE the comments about the bad format. Been watching this shit since season 1 and it's ALWAYS been a trainwreck.
Just use the NCAA as part of the academy/amateur scene to feed the main organizations...
Thorin: "nobody thought Flyquest eould beat Top Esports"
My wallet: +50 euros from betting on Flyquest 😄
We need to see how FNC play when Nemesis is not on Ori/Lucian, stylistically when he has those champs FNC are tier 1 this worlds. I think they’re being underrated, their team play between the aggro shotcallers Bwipo/Selfmade/Hylissan is absolutely nuts.
Bwipo mentioned the idea of ‘one screen’ in the LGD domination win, if they have that it’s at least a 3:2 but realistically if Nemesis gets champ pool’d it’s probably done.
there is always Malzahar open :D
Kold takes forever to say nothing.
I'm starting to see what you're saying.
So when Kobe played "bad", TSM replaced him. Now Doublelift has given us an out-of-our-mind performance. Will they now replace the president's fuckboi too?
Why does Thorin think Rekkles has a massive ego?
@Seth Kros okay and? FNC still made it to finals. We were told that the problem was jg and team not knowing how to play. We got rid of both and have only just now found and identity and a great jg... where did YB's team end up?
why do you boomers not have timestamps in ur videos?
Because someone else that really enjoys doing it always does it
Yeah, the idea that they made NA 3rd seed do play ins, and yet didn't slot down top 2 NA teams a pool each, is and was ridiculous. It was never the NA 3rd seeds that embarrassed the region, because you can't blame a team like TL finishing behind G2 and SNG, especially when they won games against each. And that's not the first time our 1st seed was our worst team. Just give NA pool 2, pool 3, and pool 4/play ins seed. They deserve nothing more.
not a big fan of groups for sure but i feel it will take away from the more casual viewer forexample tsm fans will only be watching challenger series if thats the case.
32:32 33:37
Cant wait :3
I Disagree that G2 had a harder group
LCK is stand up comedian with the same great set,
G2 is stand up comedian with great improv,
NA is clown
Monte looks like death
kold is dead wrong about sylas jungle yo. sylas jungle OP.
Didn't goldenglue have a "career" in american football or something and then got into league? So technically there is 1 NA player with that kind of story even if he isnt a great one
that Drive story was depressing, even his football coach was like, he isn't the best but he works hard
It makes sence now, Mad lions choked at worlds because they are from NA.
Guys it business why would I give u iPhone 12 when i can giive u iphone 11 to cash in right
Thorin is praising Fnatic?????
Oh right, to shit on TSM, that makes a lot more sense now.
Rekkles has an ego, ok?
I think if C9 couldn't even beat TSM in their current form they probably would've been even worse at worlds but who knows, maybe they just had a bad day vs TSM and FLY and they woulda made it to quarters. But the only reason i'm glad they didn't get to go is cause they were way to cocky and overconfident all year long, they seemed to overlook domestic competition just like TSM did the past 2 years and it caused them to miss worlds. The whole team thought it was just everybody else fighting for the last 2 worlds spots, turns out they shoulda been watching their back instead of looking through the binoculars.
C9 would do bad at worlds due to blabber not playing well when he doesn't have 3 winning lanes and nisqy getting outclassed by far weaker opposition. C9 would def do far better than TSM as they typically level up their play in boot camp and play the comps that give them best chance to win whereas TSM try to replicate what the best teams do and copy/paste it while having far weaker players trying to execute it.
@@Gurpreet-sv5zg Yeah i feel that, it seems like TSM (in particular bjerg, DL and Parth) have the mindset of playing perfectly and playing the "optimal" way. Rather than focusing on playing the best they can play with the players and skills they have.
C9 always get a Worlds buff tho
Skip the guests, guys. I don't need the opinion of some arbitrary post-pubescent Euro in my life. I just need you two.
golden glue
Bjergsen is the most overrated western player ever. Time and time again he has proven he can be one of the best in NA but completely shits the bed internationally.
People love to forget that Nemesis in his first year achieved more then Bjergsen did in 7 years at worlds. Getting out of the SKT, RNG group and actually being FNC's best performing member at worlds 2019.
I however think that despite that, if FNC wants to win worlds, they do need a worldclass midlaner like Caps or since that isnt an option a new talent like a Larssen or Humanoid.
Fnc had caps tho and didn't win still
in regards to improving as a region or chances for talent: American Football in Germany gets more and more popular as a sport. We don't have the college system here and our players in the german league are not comparable to the NFL because they usually start relatively late learning football under good coaches etc. so chances of going from the german league to the NFL and perform on a good level (or even get the chance) is relatively low but what some ex-players started doing was organizing young interested kids from Germany to enlist in american highschool and colleges to follow basically the same training and process as the NFL talents and then either getting a chance there or in the worst case they come back as better players to Germany to enrich the player pool there and if you have good players in the league usually it will improve the league overall step by step. Focus on the problems you can solve not the things you can't change.
Bjerg to support , get another midlaner
no flame that would be so good, try to import a top mid in the world, bjerg to support or he retires, DL to support or he retires, and sign a rookie adc, also get a rookie sub for bb and a rookie sub for spica. New coaching staff too.
möpmöp
just dont give tsm a spot on worlds kappa
and dont really like Double elims lmao riot just need to fix groups and pools thats it
Every good region brings in good new talent. Thats not a niche. EU, CN and KR all bring in good talented teams each year.
Why is that after every NA's poor performance, it becomes such an urgent matter to try to "fix NA"? Why does people outside of that region even care or debate around that topic? They have their problems, but other regions also have their own. EU for example definitely have a lot to work on in terms of scounting the talent in ERL's and setting the proper infrastructure and practice regime, and porbably many more if they want to be competitive against CN teams. However seemingly not many people debate around those issues and how to tackle them, why not? NA wasn't supposed to be good in the first place, and that should be clear as of now. The player-base is small; as far as I know the gaming in North America is more often casual or about consoles, not the PC games, therefore the level of NA is right where it supposed to be. If anything NA's level is actually artificially boosted by imports because of the always present Riot's bias towards NA; in terms of imports ruling, for example: TL have 4 imported players in the roster and FLY have 3, that should't be allowed. Also it's ridiculous that theoretically if some of the European players ever wanted to return to EU, they would be counted as an "imports". What's the point of splitting in regions, if the talent on a roster doesn't come from that region? Shouldn't region's strenght be reflection of a talent actually coming from that region?
And some of the fans still want Riot to implement more changes to help NA, while other regions are on their own? NA really thinks that World should orbit around them? That they are entitled to anything more than they've got? I only feel sorry for some NA fans who were in this from the beginning, they should have stopped supporting their teams and LCS long time ago, but it's on them really. NA is bad, and they deserve to be bad with how much advantage they always had with money and Riot acting in their favor. Now is the time for Riot to actually turn away from NA and put their priority in supporting and advertasing the regions that deserve it more. The region in the west that should be the most prioritized is EU.
NA has the money. They have a million dollar state of the art facility. They have an abundance of coaching staff to fill their team. Teams with far less resources are performing far better than NA teams. NA team lack talent? Import top of the line EU players or mid tier KR talent. NA lack coaches? Bring in KR coaches. NA need additional practice? Fly them in first class to boot camp. Worry about financial stress? Don't be you get paid far more than any regions sans China. NA has barriers that make them difficult to compete but lets not pretend that other regions sans China don't have the barriers that NA have.
I doubt putting more money in EU will accomplish anything. If it was, EU would be paying far better in terms of pay and facilities. They don't. You make far more money in the esport scene in NA. Even CSGO that is popularized in EU still had top of the teams needing to bet money against themselves to make bank. That says a lot about the scene.
25 TSM fans already dislike this :)
Thorins point about na not needing 3 seeds ... It was the 2 and 3 seeds that did well. If na only had 2 seeds TL would never have been there.
And how many NA teams made it out of groups?
@@Rommel12 please tell me what does that have to do with anything he said?
@@DrakeSilver that no na team did well so it doesn’t matter if team liquid came or not, they did the best but our best wasn’t even making it out of groups
It seems like TSM is a wildcard team on its own so I'm not sure how to fix the seeds issue.
@@Rommel12 Tbh who would you replace it with? A lot of people want more wildcards but the reality is viewership goes way way way up when you put in another major region team. Personally would keep the same system and have KR and LPL both with 4 seed and LEC/LCS with 3 seed. LCS 1st seed downgraded to pool 2.
i think virtually every NA csgo pro played a sport at a high level and got injured, i know off the top of my head both n0thing and tarik have stories like that. so basically just ignore everything monte says around the 24 minute mark. just cuz ur geeky ass didn't do anything but sit in front of a pc all day doesn't mean u can just hard generalize across the entire US. he has NO stats to back this up of course, just spewing complete nonsense
G2 is pure bebop
Its a good show.. but dudes when almost half of the show is ranting on tsm.. this should be a show... not a way to manifest your own frustrations. Specially thorin. And Monte no one is talking about the shitshow u made on Renegades. Move on, give us content thats what we like. Not the hate though. #cringe