Missing detail: Cincinnati's subway was originally intended to be a rapid transit loop, not necessarily a streetcar. Once this plan began to seriously struggle, the Cincinnati Engineers' Club suggested making it a streetcar tunnel in 1936. Unfortunately, it turned out that the city's cars were too long to make the tunnel's tight turns. So in this video's alternate timeline, Cincinnati ends up with a unique shortened version of the PCC capable of navigating the tunnel system, allowing the subway to develop into light rail in the late 20th and early 21st centuries. This alternate timeline also does not complete the originally proposed loop line, and rather salvages the first portion of the tunnel built. I admit I confused this subway with Rochester's during the writing process, which was used by interurban trolleys. But you know what they say about me and research...
What if Amtrak was not alone? For example what if the Santa Fe New York central rock island the southern Rio grand and the Union Pacific all still were successfully operating flagship passenger trains? It would provide needed competition for Amtrak as time goes on and it would be a satisfactory sight to rail fans to see stuff like a modern version of the southern crescent the 20th century limited and the UP city of Los Angeles alongside the Amtrak auto train and other Amtrak passenger trains
I love how deep you dive into these alternate transit histories, like you even talk about the hypothetical dots on the pittburgh sky bus to celebrate Mr. Roger’s 90th birthday 😂. I like how accurate that would be
An alternate timeline where the PATH went to Bayonne and Staten Island using the CNJ right of way instead of the HBLR using the right of way to 8th Street today...incredible. Well in real life, the HBLR has been proposed to go to Staten Island, and at one point it was also proposed for the H&M to go to Communipaw Terminal, leaving the current PATH route in downtown JC by taking Marin Blvd southbound and then crossing the Morris Canal to reach Communipaw Terminal. The Communipaw Terminal at what's now Liberty State Park is a gorgeous terminal, and it is quite an important terminal when it comes to shaping American history as many immigrants went to the terminal from nearby Ellis Island to board trains to start new lives! My family is in a way emotionally attached to Liberty State Park. My uncle (who was born and raised in JC) is the current leader of the city's oldest scout troop. When he was a scout when LSP opened on the Fourth of July 1976, they got the boy and girl scouts of the city to raise 50 US flags. My uncle raised the one in front of the Interpretive Center and the flagpole is still there today!
"The Communipaw Terminal at what's now Liberty State Park is a gorgeous terminal, and it is quite an important terminal when it comes to shaping American history as many immigrants went to the terminal from nearby Ellis Island to board trains to start new lives!" On the few times I've ridden the Staten Island Ferry, I overheard tourists who mistook the Communipaw Terminal for being part of Ellis Island.
Here are two ideas: -What if the PRR had built a Philly-Camden tunnel (a la Alan Fisher's Fixing Philadelphia's Regional Rail video) and passenger rail still existed in SJ? -What if the original PATCO plans (3 lines) had been built?
If the PATH was part of the New York Subway, the amount of money I'd save if I was able to get free transfers between the two instead of paying twice to use them. They both use Metrocard yet they won't allow a free transfer.
Heck, PATH is supposedly implementing Open Loop Contactless/Mobile Payments called TAPP (Total Access PATH Payments) similar to the MTA's OMNY, using the same Technology Partner/ Contractor (Cubic Transportation Systems). Meaning TAPP could simply be OMNY but wear a false beard, fake nose & glasses. With all these similarities, I find it rather difficult to believe that some kind of fare integration to allow transfers couldn't be accomplished, likely only with some nice, cheap software. No, it's a much better idea to spend Billions to construction a new trans-Hudson tunnel and extended the 7 train to Hoboken NJ & Secaucus Junction.🙄
Not from new york but Its absaloutely insane how it costs almost 6$ to ride PATH then MTA- it is honestly sad how if you were going from Newark to Penn Station it would be cheaper to take NJ transit
@@andrewisvrycool Neither am I. However, if it was me transiting between Newark Penn & New York Penn, I would choose NJT anyway for the reasons of being faster & simpler/more direct. Although, if you wanted to save a few bucks, transfer at Grove Street to the other PATH line to 33rd Street and walk the last couple blocks to New York Penn.
you don't have to take MTA from to get to New York Penn Station from Newark. Change PATH trains at Journal Square and take it to the last stopp 33rd and you're one block away.@@andrewisvrycool
@@TheWolfHowling I live near Toronto and in toronto if you took the subway or bus then transfered to a bus in a surrounding area you would only pay once- and if you connected to regional railway then the cost of whatever you rode before is deducted from your regional rail fare. I cant believe that NYC has so many people from NJ every day and hasnt figured something out
As silly as Pittsburgh having its own urban people mover system sounds, it's not even the silliest people mover concept I've heard of, that goes to the Bukit Panjang LRT in Singapore. For starters, they call it an LRT when it's very much not. They chose to build a people mover (while cheaper to build, it costs more to operate than the MRT) with very low capacity in an extremely dense area (you'd need three of the LRT cars connected together just to match the capacity of a single MRT car; they're two connected together). The accessibility is very bad as even if stations have elevators, they're useless when you can't cross the very busy roads to the stations without going up steps. The ride isn't comfy because of all the twists and turns (which makes the system unreliable), basically a roller coaster. And I've seen Twitter accounts post about how cool the windows are on the LRT because they're special panels made to block people's apartments when they're not cool, it's quite silly and they often don't work like they're supposed to, sometimes leaving the whole car opaque!
The original plans for the Triboro RX involved running along the outer tracks of the Hell's Gate Bridge with a station at Astoria-Dimars. If they ever end up extending the IBX to the Bronx that station will be insane for rail fanning. A two level elevated station with Acels bypassing on the express tracks. 😍😍😍
Even better, incorporating the NYC subway system into the LIRR, Imagine running NYC subway trains going out to the suburbs like Nassau or Suffolk counties.
I have a couple of requests: 1. What if the MBTA rapid transit and light rail systems expansion proposals were all built out? (Vanshnookenraggen has a pdf downloadable map.) 2. What if Baltimore and Miami "Great Society" Metrorail systems were fully built out?
Here are some Alternate Scenarios of mine: 1: What if National City Lines was exposed earlier like 1920s/30s and punished by the Federal Government 2: What if all or most of American Railroads continued using steam power at least as far as the late 60s/early 70s 3: What if Amtrak gotten broken up into several privatized passenger rail companies
I have one. May or may not be plausible though. What if only part of Conrail was privatized in the 80s? (In this scenario, all rail lines used by Amtrak in that area at the time are given to them, while the rest of the network is sold off. Also, the NEC acquisition still happens.)
Brilliant video got a few for you: What if the first Subway in North America had been a proper heavy rail system, not light rail/ trams/ trolleys? What if the US didn't close a lot of its local trolly lines? What if Vancouver built a larger rapid transit/ commuter rail system to seattle?
I think an interesting idea to think up is Louisville, it has had proposals in the past for light rail and other ambitious transit goals that never came to be.
Man that Pittsburgh alternate timeline is grim and probably true (but makes me glad the sensible thing happened instead of turning the remaining trolleys into light rail)
That Cincinnati scenario is pretty generous I think. I think more likely they’d have a similar streetcar system that Philadelphia has with a few on-street lines radiating out from a downtown tunnel, not upgrade the lines to full light rail
Well most of what they showed is actually Pittsburgh . The busses , the subway train and even the monorail thing , although that project never actually panned out
I wish there was a rail connection between Boston North and South. (Doesn’t need a central station, just a mainline connection) Getting to TD Garden or Salem from Providence would be so much easier. And connecting the Downeaster to the national Amtrak network without subway connections would be nice.
Great video. However, I think one thing to consider is how a Big Dig rail link would have changed land use in suburban Boston. This would of course depend entirely on how competently MBTA (or whatever operator ended up being in charge) managed service. Could have ended up with a SEPTA-style impact (or lack there of) or could wind up like Melbourne, with the city center tunnel needing capacity relief within 50 years of completion.
The MTA already has a C Division. That’s the work trains. If PATH were added, they could be either the D Division or just branded separately like how the RATP has RER along with the metro.
What if BART had been built as standard gauge, and Marin had been open to the relevant measures for BART? I'd guess that Northwestern Pacific's alignment would be on life support for some time longer and a Sausalito to San Rafael BART line would replace it by 1985 which would later be extended to Santa Rosa in the 90s or early 2000s. However this branch still requires passengers take the ferry across to SF. An "Express BART" was proposed to connect San Francisco and Sacramento by the year 2000. This service came to fruition in 2005, reviving the name "The Senator", but due to several cuts ended up using bimodal multiple units and changing between the BART and Capitol Corridor alignment at Richmond. While the connectivity and frequency was improved, speed was not, and the original plan is now under construction, using the former Sacramento Southern Railroad's alignment between Sacramento and Isleton, with an extension to the existing BART alignment near Antioch. This is planned to be completed in time for Phase 1 of CalHSR. Further improvements including the addition of express tracks and a tunnel to King Street Station or the Transbay Terminal are planned to complete the service in time for CalHSR Phase 2.
My unrealistic fantasy has always been that the PATH train gets eaten by the subway and NJT's rail routs get eaten by the LIRR. With minimal investment, we'd be able to have multiple subway lines to NJ and through running regional rail.
There are 4 alternate scenarios for Philadelphia. One was that the Mack elevated network proposed in 1901, which also included a Broad Street Subway running the full length of Broad Street, was built. (Only the Market Street line would be built, without its proposed branches.) Secondly, the complete 1913 rapid transit system proposed by A. Merritt Taylor was built, complete with relaying the Market Street Subway-elevated as a standard-gage line. This would have gone to areas not covered in the 1901 plans, as well as taking over parts of 2 PRR branches, the West Chester Branch, within Philadelphia, and the Chestnut Hill branch. It would also have a northern crosstown line along Girard Avenue , which would, on the end, have also run over Lancaster Avenue to the City Limits. The eastern end would have run over Richmond Street, Bridge Street, and Torresdale Avenue to Grant Avenue, and had a section between Girard College and 9th Street in a subway, where a 2-way loop would have allowed trains to loop through Center City (Philadelphia's name for its CBD, though in real life, that name did not come into use until 1940). In addition, there was a line to the Roxborough section of the City, linked by an elevated in Roxborough a subway in a proposed high-level Henry Avenue Bridge, an el over 29th Street, and a subway built in the new Fairmount Parkway (later renamed for Benjamin Franklin) Proposals 3 and 4 were combined by me. The 3rd involved plans by the Philadelphia City Planning Commission(presumably before Edmund Bacon hired on) in 1937, which revived some of the Taylor plans, including a different version of the Roosevelt Boulevard subway, and loop under Race, 22nd, Locust, and 8th Streets. The 2nd part involved a rapid transit system in South Jersey, made in 1938, using some Pennsylvania-Reading Seashore Lines Branches which would have gone to Moorestown, Haddonfield, Grenloch, and Glassboro, with diesel extensions to Mount Holly, from Moorestown, and to Millville, both using diesel rail cars. It would have run over the newly-constructed Bridge Line into Philadelphia, and the built, but not yet opened, Locust Street Subway. Its lines could have terminated on the City Loop, if needed. The 1901 proposals appeared in Harold E. Cox's "The Road from Upper Darby", published by the Electric Railroaders Association in 1967. The Taylor proposals may be found in various libraries, and the Philadelphia City Archives. The 1937 stuff appeared in a book written by Robert P. Sechler in 1974 (as a thesis?) named, in part "Speed Lines to City and Suburbs, etc", which I found at the Logan Square branch of the Free Library of Philadelphia. The Sechler book mentions the South Jersey proposals of 1938, but I found a book with those proposals at the Camden County Historical Society, in Camden, NJ. What might have happened, well, depending on which proposal was built, who knows...
What if the city of Philadelphia and SEPTA built the Roosevelt Boulevard Subway instead of the Center City Commuter Connection in the late 1970s-early 80s?
This is a fascinating one to think about. Far NE Philly would have been much different. I'm in the camp that the commuter connection was the better decision in the very long term even though the service hasn't come close to realizing its potential. The work that went into creating the connection is unimaginable today (I don't think it would have happened in today's environment at all while the boulevard subway is still very feasible with the will - there's just no way the effort that went into underpinning sacred big buildings like the Masonic Temple would have been able to happen while building the line without billions of dollars lying around)
Here’s how I think the big dig would’ve gone if it involved rail: Trains that stop at Back Bay on the southside and passed through Lechmere on the northside would have used a connection at Government Center, and trains that didn’t would’ve passed through an underground corridor connected to aquarium station on the blue line
I have 2 ideas, 1: what if Southern Railway (Uk) used 25kv Ac Overhead. 2: what if London and Northeastern Railway had Overhead wires. Both would diverge in 1923.
I thought about this after discovering and acquainting myself with the Path train after playing cities skylines. I feel New Jersey would be much much closer in policy to New York if we all were connected via a good subway tube. The spread of New York’s prices would’ve evenly distributed across the river.
Hey, if you're looking for a related "What if" topic, why not "What if the Hudson and Manhattan Railroad also got to build lines to Communipaw Terminal. Grand Central Terminal and Flatbush Avenue terminal in Brooklyn?"
There are currently five Downeasters a day with only direct service to Boston. You have to bear in mind that there would be significantly more demand with the ability to ride through to New York City. I imagine that there might be hourly service fairly soon, and more demand coming. This would increase demand for electrification, since there would be more engine switches. Also, the South Coast Rail lines are proposed to be electrified in their second stage. Given the frequency of the Worcester line, it makes sense to electrify that. And the New Haven Springfield corridor is also being considered for electrification. That would make Springfield-Worcester more feasible to electrify. And then we take into account plans by New York to improve the Empire Corridor through eventual electrification... Ultimately, it might be reasonable to electrify everything east of Albany (aside from possibly Vermont).
What if the Bayonne Scoot was retained into the NJ Transit Era (and wasn't discontinued immediately)? Service patterns and etc on this have been something I've often thought about as Elizabeth maybe could've been used as a major transfer station
Path trains are much smaller than even New York's IRT train. They are shorter in length per car..So that is an engineer learning curve. The acceleration and speed zones are different. Than you have FRA rules that doesn't exist in New York City Subway. Built quality, indicators and how each train operates along the FRA cooridor is much more complicated than what NYC subway wants to deal with.
On the topic of Subways that might have been: Seattle. Sound Transit is doing what they can with LRT but how would the region be different today if the voters had approved the Heavy Rail Metro back in the 1960s/70s. And as an offshoot, would MARTA still exist?
at 08:10 "Today Skybus operates with Bombardier Innovia APMs". Nop. it is "Today, Skjybus operates with Alstom Innovia APMs". (Bombardier Transportation no longer exists, neuither does Bombardier commercial aviation, Bombardier aerostructures (the recreational division was spun off in early 2000s to save company back then).
It would be really good if North American transit were more integrated. In Australia, public transport (that's the term, not transit) is a jurisdiction of the state government generally, so everything is coordinated by the state with a mix of state and private contracted operators (except for Brisbane, where the city council runs buses). That way the entire network is marketed and run as a single transport system, under a single identity like Transport for New South Wales, Public Transport Victoria, or TransPerth/ The Public Transport Authority of Western Australia. So if New York were in Australia, PATH would be some lines of the Public Transport Authority of New York State system
I would very much like to see entire video about Santa Fe not joining Amtrak. As Santa Fe operated several passenger trains at the time and any railroad that didn't join Amtrak was required to keep running all their intecity passenger trains at least until 1976. Santa Fe was more than willing to retain some of their passenger trains but was equally willing to get rid off some of them. In 1971 Santa Fe had following trains, which it wanted to operate: Super Chief/El Capitan, San Fransisco Chief, Texas Chief and San Diegan Other trains were Tulsan, unnamed Denver-La Junta -train and unnamed Chicago-Los Angeles train (former Grand Canyon Limited). It would also be interesting to wonder, if Santa Fe retaining their passenger service would affected United States government plan to electrify Santa Fe main line after oil crisis, or if Santa Fe would have reintroduced passenger service to Grand Canyon, if they had remained in passenger business (after all, line was still open for freight and Grand Canyon Railway did become profitable private passenger route in 1980s) or would it have affected federal government's willing to give Amtrak funding, since there would have been now so many private passenger railroads in south (Auto Train, Denver & Rio Grande, Georgia Railroad, Santa Fe, Southern Railway) so there could have been narrative, that south, with their private passenger trains, is funding unprofitable passenger trains of north. (Which would have of course been dishonest narrative, since Amtrak would still have had passenger operations in south (City of New Orleans, trains to Florida, former Southern Pacific trains, etc))
Did anyone mention anything about the Cleveland subway. In the 1940s a streetcar subway was almost built between West 65th Street and East 65th Street. In the 1950s, the funding was completely in place to build a subway loop under downtown Cleveland using heavy rail subway cars. The funding was basically dismantled and diverted elsewhere That’s why the original subway cars for the Cleveland red line were only 48 feet long because of the tight turns on the planned downtown subway loop. I’ve been dying to hear some kind of alternate story about that.
New York is ripe for scenarios like these, with plans for extending the subway to Staten Island, far eastern Queens, LaGuardia Airport, and even New Jersey being proposed, but cancelled.
Probably a little late to this, but how bout any of LA’s various subway plans that never got anywhere. A particular favorite of mine is the 1925 plan which proposed the building of both subways and elevated lines( like the Chicago L) on both Pacific Electric and new right of way. Ultimately this plan failed though as when put to vote, Union Station won out over it.
How about if the Long Island Rail Road's Atlantic Branch were extended to Lower Manhattan? I would like to see a double deck tunnel, like 63 St., so the 2nd Ave. Subway could be connected to the Fulton St. line in Brooklyn (assuming the southern portion gets built). This would eliminate the bottleneck between Chambers St. and Hoyt Schermerhorn and allow for more A trains. The T would use the local tracks and the C would terminate at WTC. The downside is that it would get rid of the Transit Museum. In the long term, the LIRR could be extended to Grand Central so trains could run through Manhattan instead of terminating. Also, how about a Metro North extension to the financial district?
An alternate timeline where NJT and LIRR are merged into the MTA to create a through-running regional rail network? How about what would happen if Mew York Central and PRR were not merged or better still were allowed to merge with other local lines to create bigger competing networks, as they actually wanted to?
If the Big Dig had included commuter rail, it wouldn't be necessary to electrify the entire system. They would just need to get NJ Transit's ALP45 dual powered locomotives. If Santa Fe hadn't joined Amtrak, how long would the San Francisco Chief lasted?
Such a missed opportunity to talk about "the train to the plane" JFK Express. Opened 3 years after this video's timeline, partly on the same line and failed for similar reasons. The 70s were a rough time for NYC subway so people living near the airport station (a bus was needed to get to the airport terminals, saw it as an option zip passed the more dangerous neighborhoods.
5:35, well..the fact you put the year 2002 as the closure date of the Mexican Amtrak (which is fair enough considering we are talking about PAN being in charge here, they don't like to have any association with the PRI policies before the AMLO days) actually opens up another possibility Considering the 2006 presidential election is extremely close (in fact AMLO is leading the count up until the last minute), perhaps ITTL AMLO could win the 2006 election...
What if metro north and lirr combined into 1 system and made a route from poughkeepsie to montauk with more comfortable seats and more luxuries sort of like the cannonball on the lirr currently
If Mexico had an Amtrak/VIA, would the Pacific Surfliner continue to Tijuana? What would that mean for San Diego's light rail, which uses that old right-of way? California, with its direct democracy rail spending, would certainly subsidize the line the rest of the way to the border. The Baja California state government would certainly want better tourism access. Make it easier for the spring breakers to get there from L.A. I think this could be a busy corridor, especially if they have a preclearance facility in Tijuana, like they do in Vancouver. The only major hurdle would be political considerations in DC.
It’s a trade off. PATH is MUCH cleaner than the NYC subway. Service, however, is mediocre. Trains run every 20 minutes during off peak hours- even the R train is more frequent. And despite the fact that there’s clear demand for a direct train from 33rd Street to Newark, people have to transfer at Journal Square. I also despise that Hoboken loop that Journal Square to 33rd Street trains make on weekends.
I know people jump on gimmicky Gulf metros when thinking of the first class subways, but the one I immediately thought about was Paris. RATP inherited the two-tier system after nationalization of the metro and ran with it all the way into the 1990s. They abolished it because it required fare inspectors underground, which are not needed when running a single class mass transit with ticket gates. However, had German-speaking countries been less egalitarian, their systems could have sustained an operation like this without extra expenses. I would additionally posit that many North American systems effectively operate in a two-tier manner. There are relatively clean and alluring commuter services and there is dungy and dirty subway for the plebes. MBTA is a perfect example of this. Billions were earmarked towards commuter rail improvements following the Big Dig, while the city subway is falling apart. This is how ubiquitous absence of fare integration on this continent is not a bug, it's a feature to keep the premium services out of reach of the regular subway users.
Ok here's one. A US without Amtrak, but instead followed a Latin American model of long-distance buses. Greyhound, instead of having the stereotype of dirty and unreliable today, it is instead a world class coach company like it was in the 50s and 60s.
On PATH: MTA got Metro North in 1972 so had to deal with fares to Connecticut (different state) but those trains were never integrated into the subway fares. I suspect PATH would have had to remain separate like Metro North because it is an interstate system and New York state doesn't want to fund folks in New Jersey. Washington DC was however able to build its metro across DC, Maryland and Virginia (though the area served were historically all part of DC before handed back to the states but it shows that where there is a will there is a way.
Great video, I really like alternate transit histories, I even made a few myself (but centered in Europe since I'm french and don't know much about the north american transit systems). I made a video of a Channel Tunnel openned in 1975, and wrote about a line near Paris, a rebuilt rolling stock for London and even what if Eadt-Germany built an high speed line with french tech and help before West-Germany. Anyway, hope you made other alternate scenarios :D
Missing detail: Cincinnati's subway was originally intended to be a rapid transit loop, not necessarily a streetcar. Once this plan began to seriously struggle, the Cincinnati Engineers' Club suggested making it a streetcar tunnel in 1936. Unfortunately, it turned out that the city's cars were too long to make the tunnel's tight turns. So in this video's alternate timeline, Cincinnati ends up with a unique shortened version of the PCC capable of navigating the tunnel system, allowing the subway to develop into light rail in the late 20th and early 21st centuries.
This alternate timeline also does not complete the originally proposed loop line, and rather salvages the first portion of the tunnel built.
I admit I confused this subway with Rochester's during the writing process, which was used by interurban trolleys. But you know what they say about me and research...
What if Amtrak was not alone? For example what if the Santa Fe New York central rock island the southern Rio grand and the Union Pacific all still were successfully operating flagship passenger trains? It would provide needed competition for Amtrak as time goes on and it would be a satisfactory sight to rail fans to see stuff like a modern version of the southern crescent the 20th century limited and the UP city of Los Angeles alongside the Amtrak auto train and other Amtrak passenger trains
I love how deep you dive into these alternate transit histories, like you even talk about the hypothetical dots on the pittburgh sky bus to celebrate Mr. Roger’s 90th birthday 😂. I like how accurate that would be
An alternate timeline where the PATH went to Bayonne and Staten Island using the CNJ right of way instead of the HBLR using the right of way to 8th Street today...incredible. Well in real life, the HBLR has been proposed to go to Staten Island, and at one point it was also proposed for the H&M to go to Communipaw Terminal, leaving the current PATH route in downtown JC by taking Marin Blvd southbound and then crossing the Morris Canal to reach Communipaw Terminal. The Communipaw Terminal at what's now Liberty State Park is a gorgeous terminal, and it is quite an important terminal when it comes to shaping American history as many immigrants went to the terminal from nearby Ellis Island to board trains to start new lives!
My family is in a way emotionally attached to Liberty State Park. My uncle (who was born and raised in JC) is the current leader of the city's oldest scout troop. When he was a scout when LSP opened on the Fourth of July 1976, they got the boy and girl scouts of the city to raise 50 US flags. My uncle raised the one in front of the Interpretive Center and the flagpole is still there today!
"The Communipaw Terminal at what's now Liberty State Park is a gorgeous terminal, and it is quite an important terminal when it comes to shaping American history as many immigrants went to the terminal from nearby Ellis Island to board trains to start new lives!"
On the few times I've ridden the Staten Island Ferry, I overheard tourists who mistook the Communipaw Terminal for being part of Ellis Island.
Here are two ideas:
-What if the PRR had built a Philly-Camden tunnel (a la Alan Fisher's Fixing Philadelphia's Regional Rail video) and passenger rail still existed in SJ?
-What if the original PATCO plans (3 lines) had been built?
If the PATH was part of the New York Subway, the amount of money I'd save if I was able to get free transfers between the two instead of paying twice to use them. They both use Metrocard yet they won't allow a free transfer.
Heck, PATH is supposedly implementing Open Loop Contactless/Mobile Payments called TAPP (Total Access PATH Payments) similar to the MTA's OMNY, using the same Technology Partner/ Contractor (Cubic Transportation Systems). Meaning TAPP could simply be OMNY but wear a false beard, fake nose & glasses. With all these similarities, I find it rather difficult to believe that some kind of fare integration to allow transfers couldn't be accomplished, likely only with some nice, cheap software. No, it's a much better idea to spend Billions to construction a new trans-Hudson tunnel and extended the 7 train to Hoboken NJ & Secaucus Junction.🙄
Not from new york but Its absaloutely insane how it costs almost 6$ to ride PATH then MTA- it is honestly sad how if you were going from Newark to Penn Station it would be cheaper to take NJ transit
@@andrewisvrycool Neither am I. However, if it was me transiting between Newark Penn & New York Penn, I would choose NJT anyway for the reasons of being faster & simpler/more direct. Although, if you wanted to save a few bucks, transfer at Grove Street to the other PATH line to 33rd Street and walk the last couple blocks to New York Penn.
you don't have to take MTA from to get to New York Penn Station from Newark. Change PATH trains at Journal Square and take it to the last stopp 33rd and you're one block away.@@andrewisvrycool
@@TheWolfHowling I live near Toronto and in toronto if you took the subway or bus then transfered to a bus in a surrounding area you would only pay once- and if you connected to regional railway then the cost of whatever you rode before is deducted from your regional rail fare. I cant believe that NYC has so many people from NJ every day and hasnt figured something out
As silly as Pittsburgh having its own urban people mover system sounds, it's not even the silliest people mover concept I've heard of, that goes to the Bukit Panjang LRT in Singapore. For starters, they call it an LRT when it's very much not. They chose to build a people mover (while cheaper to build, it costs more to operate than the MRT) with very low capacity in an extremely dense area (you'd need three of the LRT cars connected together just to match the capacity of a single MRT car; they're two connected together). The accessibility is very bad as even if stations have elevators, they're useless when you can't cross the very busy roads to the stations without going up steps. The ride isn't comfy because of all the twists and turns (which makes the system unreliable), basically a roller coaster. And I've seen Twitter accounts post about how cool the windows are on the LRT because they're special panels made to block people's apartments when they're not cool, it's quite silly and they often don't work like they're supposed to, sometimes leaving the whole car opaque!
Imagine fanning Acela trains next to NYC Subway trains - like on the same straightaway.
The original plans for the Triboro RX involved running along the outer tracks of the Hell's Gate Bridge with a station at Astoria-Dimars. If they ever end up extending the IBX to the Bronx that station will be insane for rail fanning. A two level elevated station with Acels bypassing on the express tracks. 😍😍😍
I hope they make Hell's Gate two levels, so that the lightrail IBX can ride it@@jimbo1637
Even better, incorporating the NYC subway system into the LIRR, Imagine running NYC subway trains going out to the suburbs like Nassau or Suffolk counties.
I have a couple of requests:
1. What if the MBTA rapid transit and light rail systems expansion proposals were all built out? (Vanshnookenraggen has a pdf downloadable map.)
2. What if Baltimore and Miami "Great Society" Metrorail systems were fully built out?
Here are some Alternate Scenarios of mine:
1: What if National City Lines was exposed earlier like 1920s/30s and punished by the Federal Government
2: What if all or most of American Railroads continued using steam power at least as far as the late 60s/early 70s
3: What if Amtrak gotten broken up into several privatized passenger rail companies
I have one. May or may not be plausible though.
What if only part of Conrail was privatized in the 80s? (In this scenario, all rail lines used by Amtrak in that area at the time are given to them, while the rest of the network is sold off. Also, the NEC acquisition still happens.)
Great video Caleb. Especially on Cincinnati. I visit the city frequently and it is a great place! Could be made even better with a subway 😊
Brilliant video got a few for you:
What if the first Subway in North America had been a proper heavy rail system, not light rail/ trams/ trolleys?
What if the US didn't close a lot of its local trolly lines?
What if Vancouver built a larger rapid transit/ commuter rail system to seattle?
I think an interesting idea to think up is Louisville, it has had proposals in the past for light rail and other ambitious transit goals that never came to be.
Man that Pittsburgh alternate timeline is grim and probably true (but makes me glad the sensible thing happened instead of turning the remaining trolleys into light rail)
The level of creativity here is absolutely amazing. Phenomenal job
That Cincinnati scenario is pretty generous I think. I think more likely they’d have a similar streetcar system that Philadelphia has with a few on-street lines radiating out from a downtown tunnel, not upgrade the lines to full light rail
Well most of what they showed is actually Pittsburgh . The busses , the subway train and even the monorail thing , although that project never actually panned out
Seattle-Tacoma ground running 3rd rail interurban still existing, and both cities keeping their streetcar lines through the 1900s.
What if the IND 2nd system had been built? What if the Subway had been extended to New Jersey (there's a map from the 1920's with proposed routes)?
Mexican Amtrak F40s would've been awesome
PLEASE DO MORE OF THIS
I wish there was a rail connection between Boston North and South. (Doesn’t need a central station, just a mainline connection) Getting to TD Garden or Salem from Providence would be so much easier. And connecting the Downeaster to the national Amtrak network without subway connections would be nice.
Great video. However, I think one thing to consider is how a Big Dig rail link would have changed land use in suburban Boston. This would of course depend entirely on how competently MBTA (or whatever operator ended up being in charge) managed service. Could have ended up with a SEPTA-style impact (or lack there of) or could wind up like Melbourne, with the city center tunnel needing capacity relief within 50 years of completion.
Could you make a video about the potential of a loop line on the T?
So what about what-if Las Vegas and Pittsburgh Transrapid projects were built instead of cancelled?
The MTA already has a C Division. That’s the work trains. If PATH were added, they could be either the D Division or just branded separately like how the RATP has RER along with the metro.
What if BART had been built as standard gauge, and Marin had been open to the relevant measures for BART?
I'd guess that Northwestern Pacific's alignment would be on life support for some time longer and a Sausalito to San Rafael BART line would replace it by 1985 which would later be extended to Santa Rosa in the 90s or early 2000s. However this branch still requires passengers take the ferry across to SF.
An "Express BART" was proposed to connect San Francisco and Sacramento by the year 2000. This service came to fruition in 2005, reviving the name "The Senator", but due to several cuts ended up using bimodal multiple units and changing between the BART and Capitol Corridor alignment at Richmond. While the connectivity and frequency was improved, speed was not, and the original plan is now under construction, using the former Sacramento Southern Railroad's alignment between Sacramento and Isleton, with an extension to the existing BART alignment near Antioch. This is planned to be completed in time for Phase 1 of CalHSR. Further improvements including the addition of express tracks and a tunnel to King Street Station or the Transbay Terminal are planned to complete the service in time for CalHSR Phase 2.
My unrealistic fantasy has always been that the PATH train gets eaten by the subway and NJT's rail routs get eaten by the LIRR. With minimal investment, we'd be able to have multiple subway lines to NJ and through running regional rail.
LIRR and Metro North would definitely more likely have got eaten up by NJTransit
After 9/11 it was proposed to extend the PATH to become the 6 train, but they felt combining the system and fares was too complex
Excellent alternative scenario of PATH. I'd love to have is as part of MTA, and 14th street as a transfer station.
There are 4 alternate scenarios for Philadelphia. One was that the Mack elevated network proposed in 1901, which also included a Broad Street Subway running the full length of Broad Street, was built. (Only the Market Street line would be built, without its proposed branches.) Secondly, the complete 1913 rapid transit system proposed by A. Merritt Taylor was built, complete with relaying the Market Street Subway-elevated as a standard-gage line. This would have gone to areas not covered in the 1901 plans, as well as taking over parts of 2 PRR branches, the West Chester Branch, within Philadelphia, and the Chestnut Hill branch. It would also have a northern crosstown line along Girard Avenue , which would, on the end, have also run over Lancaster Avenue to the City Limits. The eastern end would have run over Richmond Street, Bridge Street, and Torresdale Avenue to Grant Avenue, and had a section between Girard College and 9th Street in a subway, where a 2-way loop would have allowed trains to loop through Center City (Philadelphia's name for its CBD, though in real life, that name did not come into use until 1940). In addition, there was a line to the Roxborough section of the City, linked by an elevated in Roxborough a subway in a proposed high-level Henry Avenue Bridge, an el over 29th Street, and a subway built in the new Fairmount Parkway (later renamed for Benjamin Franklin) Proposals 3 and 4 were combined by me. The 3rd involved plans by the Philadelphia City Planning Commission(presumably before Edmund Bacon hired on) in 1937, which revived some of the Taylor plans, including a different version of the Roosevelt Boulevard subway, and loop under Race, 22nd, Locust, and 8th Streets. The 2nd part involved a rapid transit system in South Jersey, made in 1938, using some Pennsylvania-Reading Seashore Lines Branches which would have gone to Moorestown, Haddonfield, Grenloch, and Glassboro, with diesel extensions to Mount Holly, from Moorestown, and to Millville, both using diesel rail cars. It would have run over the newly-constructed Bridge Line into Philadelphia, and the built, but not yet opened, Locust Street Subway. Its lines could have terminated on the City Loop, if needed. The 1901 proposals appeared in Harold E. Cox's "The Road from Upper Darby", published by the Electric Railroaders Association in 1967. The Taylor proposals may be found in various libraries, and the Philadelphia City Archives. The 1937 stuff appeared in a book written by Robert P. Sechler in 1974 (as a thesis?) named, in part "Speed Lines to City and Suburbs, etc", which I found at the Logan Square branch of the Free Library of Philadelphia. The Sechler book mentions the South Jersey proposals of 1938, but I found a book with those proposals at the Camden County Historical Society, in Camden, NJ. What might have happened, well, depending on which proposal was built,
who knows...
What if Class 1 Railroads used steam locomotives until the 1970s and 80s like other countries did?
You should do a Alternate Transit History on the Elevateds of NYC and Brooklyn.
You did such a good job that I had trouble distinguishing fact and speculation.
This is gonna rock!
What if the city of Philadelphia and SEPTA built the Roosevelt Boulevard Subway instead of the Center City Commuter Connection in the late 1970s-early 80s?
This is a fascinating one to think about. Far NE Philly would have been much different. I'm in the camp that the commuter connection was the better decision in the very long term even though the service hasn't come close to realizing its potential. The work that went into creating the connection is unimaginable today (I don't think it would have happened in today's environment at all while the boulevard subway is still very feasible with the will - there's just no way the effort that went into underpinning sacred big buildings like the Masonic Temple would have been able to happen while building the line without billions of dollars lying around)
@@masoncarter88 yeah I agree. It would’ve been cool to still have the reading terminal around today, but the CCCC was the right call at the time
could you show a map of the alternate history map
As you'll know if you've seen my other videos, I'm not great at making maps! 😭
Here’s how I think the big dig would’ve gone if it involved rail:
Trains that stop at Back Bay on the southside and passed through Lechmere on the northside would have used a connection at Government Center, and trains that didn’t would’ve passed through an underground corridor connected to aquarium station on the blue line
I have 2 ideas, 1: what if Southern Railway (Uk) used 25kv Ac Overhead. 2: what if London and Northeastern Railway had Overhead wires. Both would diverge in 1923.
I wish there were more TV shows set in Boston
I thought about this after discovering and acquainting myself with the Path train after playing cities skylines. I feel New Jersey would be much much closer in policy to New York if we all were connected via a good subway tube. The spread of New York’s prices would’ve evenly distributed across the river.
WHAT IF most of americans lines had been elecrivited
Hey, if you're looking for a related "What if" topic, why not "What if the Hudson and Manhattan Railroad also got to build lines to Communipaw Terminal. Grand Central Terminal and Flatbush Avenue terminal in Brooklyn?"
London underground metropolitan line opened with 1st class carriages over 160 years ago, NY Subway was not the first lol.
There are currently five Downeasters a day with only direct service to Boston. You have to bear in mind that there would be significantly more demand with the ability to ride through to New York City. I imagine that there might be hourly service fairly soon, and more demand coming. This would increase demand for electrification, since there would be more engine switches. Also, the South Coast Rail lines are proposed to be electrified in their second stage.
Given the frequency of the Worcester line, it makes sense to electrify that. And the New Haven Springfield corridor is also being considered for electrification. That would make Springfield-Worcester more feasible to electrify. And then we take into account plans by New York to improve the Empire Corridor through eventual electrification...
Ultimately, it might be reasonable to electrify everything east of Albany (aside from possibly Vermont).
What if the Bayonne Scoot was retained into the NJ Transit Era (and wasn't discontinued immediately)? Service patterns and etc on this have been something I've often thought about as Elizabeth maybe could've been used as a major transfer station
Path trains are much smaller than even New York's IRT train. They are shorter in length per car..So that is an engineer learning curve. The acceleration and speed zones are different. Than you have FRA rules that doesn't exist in New York City Subway. Built quality, indicators and how each train operates along the FRA cooridor is much more complicated than what NYC subway wants to deal with.
What if BNSF railway closed & abandoned the Glorieta & Raton Subdivisions, & made reroute the Southwest Chief through Amarillo, TX?
That is pretty much what is about to happen.
THAT IF amtrack owned every regional and commuter service
On the topic of Subways that might have been: Seattle. Sound Transit is doing what they can with LRT but how would the region be different today if the voters had approved the Heavy Rail Metro back in the 1960s/70s. And as an offshoot, would MARTA still exist?
at 08:10 "Today Skybus operates with Bombardier Innovia APMs". Nop. it is "Today, Skjybus operates with Alstom Innovia APMs". (Bombardier Transportation no longer exists, neuither does Bombardier commercial aviation, Bombardier aerostructures (the recreational division was spun off in early 2000s to save company back then).
WHAT IF the SPSF merger was approved
It would be really good if North American transit were more integrated. In Australia, public transport (that's the term, not transit) is a jurisdiction of the state government generally, so everything is coordinated by the state with a mix of state and private contracted operators (except for Brisbane, where the city council runs buses). That way the entire network is marketed and run as a single transport system, under a single identity like Transport for New South Wales, Public Transport Victoria, or TransPerth/ The Public Transport Authority of Western Australia.
So if New York were in Australia, PATH would be some lines of the Public Transport Authority of New York State system
What if Pennsylvania Railroad electrified their main line between Harrisburg and Pittsburgh, like they originally planned to do
I would very much like to see entire video about Santa Fe not joining Amtrak. As Santa Fe operated several passenger trains at the time and any railroad that didn't join Amtrak was required to keep running all their intecity passenger trains at least until 1976.
Santa Fe was more than willing to retain some of their passenger trains but was equally willing to get rid off some of them.
In 1971 Santa Fe had following trains, which it wanted to operate: Super Chief/El Capitan, San Fransisco Chief, Texas Chief and San Diegan
Other trains were Tulsan, unnamed Denver-La Junta -train and unnamed Chicago-Los Angeles train (former Grand Canyon Limited).
It would also be interesting to wonder, if Santa Fe retaining their passenger service would affected United States government plan to electrify Santa Fe main line after oil crisis, or if Santa Fe would have reintroduced passenger service to Grand Canyon, if they had remained in passenger business (after all, line was still open for freight and Grand Canyon Railway did become profitable private passenger route in 1980s) or would it have affected federal government's willing to give Amtrak funding, since there would have been now so many private passenger railroads in south (Auto Train, Denver & Rio Grande, Georgia Railroad, Santa Fe, Southern Railway) so there could have been narrative, that south, with their private passenger trains, is funding unprofitable passenger trains of north. (Which would have of course been dishonest narrative, since Amtrak would still have had passenger operations in south (City of New Orleans, trains to Florida, former Southern Pacific trains, etc))
What if amtrak also took state commuter rail?
Like every single commuter trains in the us taken over by amtrak just like the passengers
What if the Maine Eastern railroad stayed open or even expanded?
Did anyone mention anything about the Cleveland subway. In the 1940s a streetcar subway was almost built between West 65th Street and East 65th Street.
In the 1950s, the funding was completely in place to build a subway loop under downtown Cleveland using heavy rail subway cars. The funding was basically dismantled and diverted elsewhere
That’s why the original subway cars for the Cleveland red line were only 48 feet long because of the tight turns on the planned downtown subway loop.
I’ve been dying to hear some kind of alternate story about that.
You are dreamer, like me. I live in Brooklyn, transit here is dull. I am fully immersed my my model railroad, and my music collection.
I live here in Brooklyn too! And, Same here.
All the foamers will be so happy since PAPD wouldn't be patrolling the existing PATH.
New York is ripe for scenarios like these, with plans for extending the subway to Staten Island, far eastern Queens, LaGuardia Airport, and even New Jersey being proposed, but cancelled.
caleb they got full service on the silver service
For some reason I thought that Path was part of the MTA already.
They accept MetroCard, but it's a separate fare.
6:53 as PATH would be a C Division, what would be the designation for work trains? D Division?
Can’t wait!
Some of these things could still happen
Probably a little late to this, but how bout any of LA’s various subway plans that never got anywhere. A particular favorite of mine is the 1925 plan which proposed the building of both subways and elevated lines( like the Chicago L) on both Pacific Electric and new right of way. Ultimately this plan failed though as when put to vote, Union Station won out over it.
What if a third Canadian passenger railroad was created? Specifically to serve the greater Southeast and northeast of Canada
Caleb
I have an idea:
LONG DISTANCE PEOPLEMOVER
Like Heinlein's rolling roads?
@@LVRugger w h a t i s t h a t
How about if the Long Island Rail Road's Atlantic Branch were extended to Lower Manhattan? I would like to see a double deck tunnel, like 63 St., so the 2nd Ave. Subway could be connected to the Fulton St. line in Brooklyn (assuming the southern portion gets built). This would eliminate the bottleneck between Chambers St. and Hoyt Schermerhorn and allow for more A trains. The T would use the local tracks and the C would terminate at WTC. The downside is that it would get rid of the Transit Museum. In the long term, the LIRR could be extended to Grand Central so trains could run through Manhattan instead of terminating. Also, how about a Metro North extension to the financial district?
Ooh I hadn't even thought of that! Sounds like something a European city would do
An alternate timeline where NJT and LIRR are merged into the MTA to create a through-running regional rail network?
How about what would happen if Mew York Central and PRR were not merged or better still were allowed to merge with other local lines to create bigger competing networks, as they actually wanted to?
If the Big Dig had included commuter rail, it wouldn't be necessary to electrify the entire system. They would just need to get NJ Transit's ALP45 dual powered locomotives. If Santa Fe hadn't joined Amtrak, how long would the San Francisco Chief lasted?
That was great
Such a missed opportunity to talk about "the train to the plane" JFK Express. Opened 3 years after this video's timeline, partly on the same line and failed for similar reasons. The 70s were a rough time for NYC subway so people living near the airport station (a bus was needed to get to the airport terminals, saw it as an option zip passed the more dangerous neighborhoods.
Doing this would allow for journeys that previously didn’t exist which can create economic growth
Ha haa, Paris' first class was only finally eliminated in 1991 \m/
Sweet!
Another one for a future video: How the San Francisco Bay Area would have changed if the original BART system was built.
5:35, well..the fact you put the year 2002 as the closure date of the Mexican Amtrak (which is fair enough considering we are talking about PAN being in charge here, they don't like to have any association with the PRI policies before the AMLO days) actually opens up another possibility
Considering the 2006 presidential election is extremely close (in fact AMLO is leading the count up until the last minute), perhaps ITTL AMLO could win the 2006 election...
What if PATCO became part of SEPTA?
What if SEPTA still had diesel service that would be cool
No even better if SEPTA kept their OLD TROLLEYS lines 6 15 23 53 and 56 and buy more Kawasaki LRVS in the 80s
@@Nebuyosuck_edit matter of fact that is way better
The PA-5 would meet its older brother, the R160 Siemens.
When the next WHAT IF video?
What if Acela served the entire east coast down to Miami?
What if metro north and lirr combined into 1 system and made a route from poughkeepsie to montauk with more comfortable seats and more luxuries sort of like the cannonball on the lirr currently
Bad idea
I would love it if PATH was part of the subway
If it was part of the MTA, that would be a lot of fair beaters
first class woul only probably be on the express trains and maybe airport expresss lines.
WHAT IF metro north was part of long island railway
WHAT IF road industry did not inpackded passerger service
If Mexico had an Amtrak/VIA, would the Pacific Surfliner continue to Tijuana? What would that mean for San Diego's light rail, which uses that old right-of way?
California, with its direct democracy rail spending, would certainly subsidize the line the rest of the way to the border. The Baja California state government would certainly want better tourism access. Make it easier for the spring breakers to get there from L.A.
I think this could be a busy corridor, especially if they have a preclearance facility in Tijuana, like they do in Vancouver.
The only major hurdle would be political considerations in DC.
Ideas- high speed rail connecting all the major Midwest cities
It’s a trade off. PATH is MUCH cleaner than the NYC subway. Service, however, is mediocre.
Trains run every 20 minutes during off peak hours- even the R train is more frequent. And despite the fact that there’s clear demand for a direct train from 33rd Street to Newark, people have to transfer at Journal Square. I also despise that Hoboken loop that Journal Square to 33rd Street trains make on weekends.
Not sure if this was suggested yet, but what if DC retained its streetcar system? What would preservation look like afterwards?
the first two pictures though💀☠️
✌🏾
I know people jump on gimmicky Gulf metros when thinking of the first class subways, but the one I immediately thought about was Paris. RATP inherited the two-tier system after nationalization of the metro and ran with it all the way into the 1990s. They abolished it because it required fare inspectors underground, which are not needed when running a single class mass transit with ticket gates. However, had German-speaking countries been less egalitarian, their systems could have sustained an operation like this without extra expenses. I would additionally posit that many North American systems effectively operate in a two-tier manner. There are relatively clean and alluring commuter services and there is dungy and dirty subway for the plebes. MBTA is a perfect example of this. Billions were earmarked towards commuter rail improvements following the Big Dig, while the city subway is falling apart. This is how ubiquitous absence of fare integration on this continent is not a bug, it's a feature to keep the premium services out of reach of the regular subway users.
I NEED MORE
This would be the worst thing to happen, I don't understand people in ny hate mta so much yet want mta to run everything.
Ok here's one. A US without Amtrak, but instead followed a Latin American model of long-distance buses. Greyhound, instead of having the stereotype of dirty and unreliable today, it is instead a world class coach company like it was in the 50s and 60s.
On PATH: MTA got Metro North in 1972 so had to deal with fares to Connecticut (different state) but those trains were never integrated into the subway fares. I suspect PATH would have had to remain separate like Metro North because it is an interstate system and New York state doesn't want to fund folks in New Jersey. Washington DC was however able to build its metro across DC, Maryland and Virginia (though the area served were historically all part of DC before handed back to the states but it shows that where there is a will there is a way.
NY doesn’t want to fund NJ but has no problem taxing those working in NYC. NJ: shafted again!
Great video, I really like alternate transit histories, I even made a few myself (but centered in Europe since I'm french and don't know much about the north american transit systems). I made a video of a Channel Tunnel openned in 1975, and wrote about a line near Paris, a rebuilt rolling stock for London and even what if Eadt-Germany built an high speed line with french tech and help before West-Germany. Anyway, hope you made other alternate scenarios :D
Skybus isn't a light metro or a downtown peoplemover, would be doomed to fail
Gadgetbahn