7 minutes to get from her job to this other place, rob it, get back, and compose herself to get back to work. The police must have been on drugs to think that was physically possible.
@@Slay1337pl Of course. The accused was overweight and therefore couldn't run fast enough to commit the crime within the time frame given. Although I don't exactly get what about the accuser makes the alibi more valid.
It's not a thought. Thousands of real stories still ongoing right now. Qualified Immunity is a joke. As far as I'm concerned, the moment anyone is found innocent after being punished like this, everyone involved from the police through to the judge should be immediately dragged out into the street and flayed alive. Do the job right or don't accept the job at all!
@@SeiShinjitsuShi in regular US, prison it's not much better...2-10%. Our calls for "justice"...end in innocent people like you and me ending up in prison out of nowhere.
@@CrashSable so, you think we should give the death penalty, death in horrible pain no less, as a punishment for wrongful conviction? of any crime? i agree that the people responsible should be punished, but to have them flayed alive is monstrous
One of the biggest issues is that prosecutors don't seek justice they seek convictions. Police do the same thing a lot of the time. Especially high profile cases.
Well in a society that is ruled by fear, mostly through the media and politics, people won't look for justice. They'll look for a false sense of security. It doesn't matter that the real murderer is locked up but that they believe he/she has and are more than willing to lie to themselves if it means sleeping well tonight. The world is a dangerous place. Most people can't handle that and when confronted with it be it on television or in real life they'll want peace of mind preferably as fast as possible. This isn't new. We've always looked for someone to blame be it heritics, satanists, witches, people listening to heavy metal or someone with the right (wrong?) name. We don't care that they're actually guilty or not. We just want to feel safe and pretty much any convenient scapegoat will do.
I've always had an irrational fear of being convicted for a crime I didn't commit, and watching these videos doesn't help 😂 These have been great fun to watch though and I would love to see more!
It’s impossible to remove fallacy from the courtroom, but it is possible to raise the standard for evidence required to convict. For starters, eye witness testimony shouldn’t be admissible: it’s extremely unreliable
I got hit in an attempted robbery. I did see the two attackers before that and while fighting em off/running away. I gave the police a totally useless description. Said they were dressed well for a night out. I was so sure of that. Luckily Them showing me some well dressed guys left me unable to make a identification. Few days later they cought and knee shot the real ones. Dressed poorly, same clothes as before recognized em immediatly then. But i sure would not want anybody being convicted because of me remembering/misremembering them.
My brother-in-law is a retired police detective. He told me that, not only are eyewitnesses notoriously unreliable, but when the eyewitness is the victim, their evidence is almost useless. Those witnesses aren't lying, it's just that the trauma of the situation can seriously affect their memory. There are obviously cases where witnesses, including victims, have very accurate recall and do identify the perpetrators. But those cases are less common than we would think.
Not just the time. People are cruel and I don't want to know how many times she was accused by people afterwards for something she didn't do. Together with all the psychological damage ... something like that must be terrible xx.
@@mlem6951: Indeed, I'm almost certain that were I falsely accused for something, I would not have the mental stability to do the time, get freed and live an "ordinary" life, doubly so if people kept saying I did it (and moreso if my innocence was proven). Maybe it's something about spending so much time away, let's just hope as few people as possible go through it to confirm...
@@mlem6951: Indeed, I'm almost certain that were I falsely accused for something, I would not have the mental stability to do the time, get freed and live an "ordinary" life, doubly so if people kept saying I did it (and moreso if my innocence was proven). Maybe it's something about spending so much time away, let's just hope as few people as possible go through it to confirm...
Dallas County DA Henry Wade racked up a mountain of false convictions, and while a lot of them weren't exposed until after his death in 2001, I don't think he ever apologized for the ones that came to light before he died. As many have found out the hard way, when you put the wrong person in prison, the "right" person often continues committing crimes. People have lost their lives because prosecutors got such tunnel vision that they refused to even look at evidence that pointed a different way.
@@vigilantcosmicpenguin8721 subject requires additional research Warning: researching the subject requires dangerous quantities of incompetence and malice from those being observed. Recommended course of action is full analysis of historical records and passive observation of active instances. Do not attempt to excellerate research.
@@vigilantcosmicpenguin8721 Prosecutors in the US are often elected. Often, with only one contestant running, making it a "win by default". If there is an actual election, take a wild guess how the prosecutor in charge proves his effectiveness.
Though it isn't entirely based on statistics, I would love for Kevin to talk about how people will confess to a crime they didn't do. I've heard that people will do it out of fear or to protect another person.
Tiredness,m and fatigue, both physical and mental. You break a person down and then soften your approach and say “hey if you just sign this we can stop this questioning and you can get some rest” You sign it just for some peace and assume you will get a chance to consult with a lawyer to get to the real truth in the morning, even if you have to spend a night in jail. People from communities disposed to trusting police and children/teenagers are especially vulnerable to this. All this is why it shouldn’t just be “your right” to have a lawyer present, but should be a requirement for all questioning. Jury’s and judges place so much emphasis on eye witness testimony and “confessions” and so much is on the line, so someone, like a defense attorney, who is purely on the side of the person being questioned needs to be there at all times.
This video is incredible. The way that you’re tying in these videos you’ve been making for years and just the progression to applying it to genuine real world Situations. Just wow. Incredible job Kevin, Matt, John, and Paula
This is a great time for a reminder: never answer questions when the police ask. They aren't there to help you, they're there to get the evidence for a conviction. If the police want to "talk" to you, they probably have some kind of evidence to make a case against you, and will use anything you say to strengthen that case.
If the police ask for information from you, it's because they think the case isn't strong enough without your testimony. If they were confident that they got it right, they wouldn't bother. Don't give them mileage if they're going for you, or someone you want to stay out of prison.
Went to the Canary Islands and my passport wouldn't scan at the electronic gates, so I was sent to get it checked manually. Turns out someone with my name had committed a murder on the island and they were still looking for him. I said to the guy "are you joking" he said "no sir , I wouldn't joke about something so serious"
Of course! You fled from the murder scene and hid where they would never expect: on the murder scene, posing as an innocent tourist! (I, unlike the airport guy, would joke about this.)
GAGAGAGAGAGA! I will now count to 3 and then I am still the unprettiest TH-camr of all time. 1...2...3. GAGAGAGAGAGA!!! Thank you for your attention, dear bren
@@gabor6259 the death penalty should be abolished even if we are 100% sure only guilty parties are convicted of crimes, no matter how heinous. The state and society at large cannot decide for someone's life or death.
@@KyrieFortune i would consider death over life in prison what is the point of living when all it is just sitting locked in a cell if you have nothing worth living for why live.
The issues pointed out in this video remind me of a book I read once, The Book of Michael. It was about a teen that was wrongly convicted of murdering his girlfriend. Why was he convicted? Well, a teenage girl's body was found in the woods, stabbed to death. He was the last person confirmed to see her, having been seen taking her into the woods, can't remember if it was a picnic dinner or camping. Either way, Michael met up with friends a half hour after the estimated time of death, bringing into question why he would leave her alone in the woods. The murder weapon wasn't found, but was believed to be a knife, a historical artifact I believe, owned by her father that had been reported stolen moments before her death, and which Michael had shown an interest in. Finally, to put it lightly, his seed, confirmed with DNA evidence, was found inside of her, with testimony of friends and family saying she was the kind of girl that wanted to wait for marriage and that her and Michael had always been an odd choice for a couple. Meanwhile, Michael was known for having been a bit of a bad kid, from minor theft to vandalism, with an ex that was known to have brought out the worst in him. So, teen boy with a temper goes to the woods alone with innocent girlfriend, she dies and he's almost immediately with friends, his DNA inside of her as further evidence. You can guess why they suspected him and the story they came up with. Completely ignoring his testimony that they were in love and she had wanted to make love, not believing his claim that he had rushed off to meet his friends for what he thought was an emergency, leaving her in a tent with her saying she would pack things up and see him later, dismissing the lack of a murder weapon. He was convicted and sent to prison. 3 months later, his ex girlfriend shows up, confessing it was her and bringing in the murder weapon as evidence. She wanted him back and killed the girl out of jealousy. The reason I'm mentioning and comparing, though, is because the main plot of the book was focused on him dealing with life after months in prison. Because while he was deemed innocent and given all sorts of official apologies, people still only saw him as the guy that went to prison, they still saw him as the murderer he was falsely convicted as. And while fiction, it was heavily based on a combination of stories of it happening in reality, and even mentions some of them. So it shows that these issues that lead to mistakes in the justice system, that lead to innocent people being arrested, can cause further issues for them even if they are later announced innocent because investigators were wrong. From cases where innocence is proven too late (they got the death sentence and were gone before the truth came out, for example) to those released for it and dealing with all sorts of injustice and discrimination from people that don't know the full story or can't get the claims out of their head. People need to be far more careful of such problems that lead to innocents going to prison
"momma, when are they gonna let you out? we arent a family anymore" i am literally sobbing wtf. this is sick and i wish all those involved in falsely accusing this woman were brought to justice
@@limesandlemons1367 I mean yeah that was a little much however it still could be done and everything pointed to her should we just let people off even if things point to them being guilty?
Just wanted to say I appreciate you opening the eyes of a lot of people to just a little bit of the reality most people tend to stay blind to. It's pretty fucked up that you can even make these videos to begin with, but I'm glad you're doing it. Thanks for the video, Kevin
And our prison system is built to be cruel instead of rehabilitative, so it can in fact take people who had it mentally together, and rip that all apart from before they even set foot in that prison.
My father came back from the military and 2 days later military police showed up and wanted to take him saying he never showed up yesterday do be drafted. Thankfully his commanding officer could be reached to verify he got back home a few days ago. The person that didn't show up shared the same name AND lived in the same building.
I actually had this issue growing up. I had(have? I haven’t heard about him in 15 years.) a cousin who had the exact same name as me. He was a drug dealer who was constantly in trouble with the law. I was not exactly an angel myself, but mostly I just drove over the speed limit or forgot to renew my plates, nothing serious. BUT! Every time I got pulled over and they ran my plates, it would come back to a Nicholas Holmes who would then return my cousin who was registered in the database as “Code caution 2 armed and dangerous.” As a result I would often have the police approach my car gun drawn and I would be pulled out of my car and frisked. I would have them take my wallet out and get my license so they could run the number and date of birth and see I was a different Nicholas. It was incredibly annoying. But I’ve since moved across the country and don’t have that issue. And I was never arrested or accused of any of his crimes, so that’s a plus.
@@mitchystuff: Yeah agreed - unless the cousin (or other family members etc) would take issue, I don't think mentioning the name is any massive risk above normal...
I don't want to understate how horrendous this incident was, but please keep making amazing videos like these Kevin!! It's absolutely fascinating hearing you talk about previous errors in administering justice, and the causes and effects each one has.
this feels like the conclusion to a law case review series, and I love it so much! It never ceases to amaze me how much you truly care about the things you make videos on
I know a man in my grandfather's locality who was tortured by the police just because his name was the same as a criminal. He was tortured so much that he lost his mental stability😔
These episodes really need to be part of a whole season with a name like “Court Science” or “Laws and Laws” (Science Laws and Court Laws) or something like that. Keep it up!
"Hey, we caught the actual suspect what do we do with the one we falsely accused and ruined her life?" " *Sigh* Just leave her in prison until we're starting to get backlash"
I'm so stoked to be the only one in the world named "Austin Kolegraff" thank you Great Great Great Grandpa Kohlgraf for trying to make the name sound "less German" in 1892
It seems like there's also a bias that once someone is caught up in the judicial system, there's a tendency to think that they must've done *something* or they wouldn't be there.
I've been distantly following this channel for 8+ years now, and I have to tell you, you've improved the quality of your videos over time a LOT, to the point now your videos are awesome. Keep it up!
Never talk to police inregards to an accusation folks, even if you are innocent or want to "help" the police. Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law. Even things you don't think that can. Demand a lawyer first.
That was my first thought too. A common thread I keep seeing these cases is people not exercising their right to remain silent. Never talk to police and always get a lawyer!
I’ve never had faith in the system and I never will. To this day people are sitting in prison for something they didn’t do even when science proves them innocent.
Have false conviction compensations come out from the Police Department's pension fund and the DA's pocket and maybe they'll start thinking twice about putting the first person they get their hands on in jail.
my grandma on my dad's side was kicked out of a school for having the same name as another local young girl . the newspapers said that she was pregnant at 15 or 16 . so casually the nuns kicked her out even though their last names didn't fully match storie/story . but they dismissed this as being an error.
This made me remember an episode of 60 Days In where one of the undercover participants was taken to court by accident because the was another inmate in the prison with the exact same name as him
"Dad why is my brother called Tanner Butts?" "Because your mom thought that was a unique name no one would share" "Thanks dad" "No problem, S9&7h!fQ1aJK@Y3"
I'm a high school math teacher and I get my students asking me, "When am I ever going to use this?" on a daily basis. I really would like them to see all of these videos just so they know that it doesn't matter if they use it or not. That having a well-educated mathematically-minded civil society is a matter of life or death for some people. One day, if my students get put on a jury, I'd hate if they convicted an innocent person just because they didn't understand or refused to learn what I try to teach them.
Well said. I'm a teacher too (art!) and constantly tell my own kids no knowledge is wasted- you don't know what you will be doing I the future, who you will meet, and so it's important to be widely informed about all sorts of matters. It's good to be smart! It's good to continue stretching your mind and finding connections. My son is very mathematical, and so here I am educating myself further on such areas to be able to have better discussions with him. I'm also fascinated with fallacies and the logical thinking blunders we can so easily fall prey to.
I like the last minutes which are essentially a warcry to solve injustice in the world by watching and sharing your other videos. I admire a good hustle when I see one.
I find true crime interesting enough, but I'm not into gruesome dramatized stuff so I generally stay away from the genre. This series is perfect, true crime that just focuses on science, I love it.
I really appreciate these stories. Not only do we get to see theory in practice but we also get to honor these people who were victims of systematic errors. At the very least, we're all becoming smarter jurors
Unfortunately Joyce never received compensation for her wrongful conviction. Compensation should be automatic. Another case of the American Injustice System.
Those miss identity are scary. To share my personal experience, with few details as possible, I help a girl(miss A) to get a job at my place of work but her criminal record came back not good. She was confused cause she never got arrested in her life. She asked for my help and we went at the local police station. After about an hour or so the officer came back with a mugshot of a girl clearly different from miss A. We learned that this girl, with a pretty extensive sheet has exactly the same name as miss A, lives in a close by state and other info I won't disclose. I imagine that if it wasn't for my boss willingness to push forward into this, she would have had a hard time getting a job around here since most business use the same system to check criminal records.
It’s so horrible that her son offed himself while she remanded to prison for no reason. The level of anger towards the system and helplessness that I feel imagining being in that situation is overwhelming, I don’t think that I could ever live in this country or trust anyone with power over me again in her position. She’s incredibly strong for having endured this and come out of the end as imperturbably composed as she seems to have.
This information is terrifying and heart melting at the same time...i liked that you wrapped up the video on a positive thought with a smile on her face...god bless her soul and her family...and as always keep up the good work kevin...lots of love from india...
Maybe having a very unique name would be the best. It might ruin your entire youth because until you leave school you will be made fun of and bullied because of your name, but at least no one will accuse you of a crime just because you share the same name with a criminal. People don't care about justice, they only care about getting a culprit.
My father was almost arrested for something similar. He totaled a car hitting a deer and the police responding to the accident thought he was someone else. The was a warrant out for a guy with the same name, also am air force veteran, and a similar SSN.
Good on you, Kevin, for covering this! You are legendary! This just shows the flaws of the criminal justice system and how careless it is, especially against BIPOC women. Thank you for this video!
Excelente video, excelente serie. Cunado la cosa se pone un poquito contraintuitiva, el cerebro humano inmediatamente entra en piloto automático y sobrevienen los errores. Gracias Kevin por hacernos pensar en eso.
She could have sued the state for wrongfully conviction and the lack of emotional support for her son and his suicide. Don't understand why the community is so fragmented. People should question and put pressure on the justice system and hold the investigation team and related parties accountable.
My name is extremely common-about as many as “Michael Stevens”. Hell, I’ve *worked* with someone who has my exact name, not once, but twice. The bad part is I could be easily misidentified if any of my other name-doppelgängers decides to commit a crime, but the good part is that it’d be easy for me to explain that it’s probably a case of a name mixup and for them to go find the right person with my name.
Jon Wheeler, who goes by ProtonJon online, almost wasn't allowed into university because someone with his exact name in his region had applied to a different university at the same time, so local authorities thought they were the same person... and I thought _that_ story was crazy. This is a whole new level.
My grandfather was a traveling salesman, and one time he stopped into a diner for lunch. The waitress kept giving him a weird look, and finally asked if he had a twin brother. He said he had brothers, but no twin, and not in that area. She pointed to a guy at the other end of the restaurant who she said looked just like him.. and he did. He went over to introduce himself, and turned out the guy had the EXACT SAME first and last name. As far as they could tell there was no direct family connection. Now (since my grandfather was the out of towner) imagine if he'd decided to rob the place instead of getting a bite to eat.
In the US this is way too common, so many innocents get jailed just to meet the for profit jails quota's. Justice isn't really something that US prosecutors care, all about the moneys.
I have liked this channel for several years now, but I wanted to let you know that I absolutely love these last few videos. All of the paradox videos have made me think, but this latest series shows the real life harm of our inability to use our logical thinking brains effectively and instead use our gut and short cut thinking to determine the fate of individuals and millions of people around the world.
Someone I know actually has to live with this problem. Everytime he applies for anything he's required to do a security background check since the other person is actually a registered criminal.
This sort of happened to one of my coworkers. The background check for him returned that he had an extensive criminal record including murder, and our office apparently was very concerned. They called the police on him and he got arrested. He spent 3 nights in jail before they realized that it was just a person with the same name. And the real kicker, is the way they found out is when they told Ohio they had the guy, and Ohio Prison System told him that they didn't because the guy was already in prison and had been for 5 years.
ugh, it's always the eyewitness getting it wrong. anybody who played among us (bear with me) knows that even with bright and unique colors, finding the killer isn't easy
Just because the FDA approved something doesn't fill me with confidence. For example they approved Aspartame and banned Stevia even though they knew at the time it could cause cancer and Stevia did not. But Aspartame was much more profitable and they caved to the company lobbying for it.
Not murder, but someone tried to garnish wages based on my name. Probably 7 or 8 years ago, our payroll person told me they had received a call about settings up a garnishment against my wages. She told them that they had the wrong person even though they kept insisting that she just didn't know. So glad she was stubborn about it because I can only imagine how much trouble it wouldn't been to get my money back. I immediately warned my dad (who has the same name) and made it a point to tell my payroll person when I changed jobs. Guessing they did a little more research and stopped going after me when she told them that were wrong because I haven't heard anything since.
Jesus Christ I almost cried. Her son killed himself and she had to waste 10 years of her life all because of a stupid coincidence. What a depressing video. I hope her organization is still going strong.
Yeah, it does feel like the interrogator especially was suspicious when he said that they knew she was lying when they have no way to prove that, and the fact she couldn't have physically done it, leads to some pretty easy detective work to figure out how it ended up this way.
I must say Kevin, for the longest time you were my least favorite of the "Vsauces", but not anymore. Your clear effort for regular uploads, the various videos about statistics and math thought-experiments and now these videos bridging the theoretical to real-world examples, as if answering "sure but what is this useful for?" before people get to ask it. Wonderful. the playful and serious persona in the different videos also helps in showing the seriousness fo these cases and it really come through. Well done.
7 minutes to get from her job to this other place, rob it, get back, and compose herself to get back to work. The police must have been on drugs to think that was physically possible.
it was only 7 minutes to return to work they used the time of the robbery and the time she was first seen to get 7 minutes
Simple really, if you take into account who the accuser and accused were. Of course it's BS, but the police went with it anyway.
@@Slay1337pl Of course. The accused was overweight and therefore couldn't run fast enough to commit the crime within the time frame given.
Although I don't exactly get what about the accuser makes the alibi more valid.
Everyone was doing a lot of coke in the 80s.
Legit growing weed in their backyard
The thought of an innocent person being falsely convicted and no-one believing or helping them is terrifying
It's not a thought. Thousands of real stories still ongoing right now. Qualified Immunity is a joke. As far as I'm concerned, the moment anyone is found innocent after being punished like this, everyone involved from the police through to the judge should be immediately dragged out into the street and flayed alive.
Do the job right or don't accept the job at all!
Around 10% of people on death row are most likely innocent, according to the Innocence Project.
@@SeiShinjitsuShi in regular US, prison it's not much better...2-10%. Our calls for "justice"...end in innocent people like you and me ending up in prison out of nowhere.
*cough* rittenhouse*cough*
@@CrashSable so, you think we should give the death penalty, death in horrible pain no less, as a punishment for wrongful conviction? of any crime? i agree that the people responsible should be punished, but to have them flayed alive is monstrous
One of the biggest issues is that prosecutors don't seek justice they seek convictions. Police do the same thing a lot of the time. Especially high profile cases.
Yeah, prosecutors are deemed good if they get convictions, whether or not the person did it or not doesn’t matter
Any resemblance with a recent case is purely coincidental.
Well in a society that is ruled by fear, mostly through the media and politics, people won't look for justice. They'll look for a false sense of security. It doesn't matter that the real murderer is locked up but that they believe he/she has and are more than willing to lie to themselves if it means sleeping well tonight. The world is a dangerous place. Most people can't handle that and when confronted with it be it on television or in real life they'll want peace of mind preferably as fast as possible. This isn't new. We've always looked for someone to blame be it heritics, satanists, witches, people listening to heavy metal or someone with the right (wrong?) name. We don't care that they're actually guilty or not. We just want to feel safe and pretty much any convenient scapegoat will do.
System is broken
Never talk to cops!
10 Lost Years and a Dead Son. And then still have the strength to stand up for something. Huge respect uu
*9 and almost a half
@@EggyB you wish
@@mlem6951 i didn't think you would reply. But it's 9 years, 5 months and 24 days.
The story in general broke my heart, but the part about her son.. so sad.
Keep up this style of content, I've really been enjoying it
the thing that really got me was her son and his last words :'( it wasnt only her life that was affected by the ignorance of the people in charge
Some things can never be repaired.
amazing prison and justice system
bring in as much prisoners as possible to capitalize off of and violate their basic human rights as much as possible
@@beangobernador violate how?
@@anonymousperson3023 guilty until proven innocent, they don't make sure the person is guilty
I've always had an irrational fear of being convicted for a crime I didn't commit, and watching these videos doesn't help 😂 These have been great fun to watch though and I would love to see more!
Its a rational fear
@@UrvineSpiegel not rlly
Same! It's literally my biggest fear, I have nightmares about it, the feeling of powerlessness and hopelessness...
yooo glad I'm not alone here :x
Luckily Pete The Wargamer isn't a very common name so it's doubtful you'll be mistaken for someone else
It’s impossible to remove fallacy from the courtroom, but it is possible to raise the standard for evidence required to convict. For starters, eye witness testimony shouldn’t be admissible: it’s extremely unreliable
facts
confessions shouldn't be admissable either, unless the person confessing has testified to something verifiably linking them to the crime
I got hit in an attempted robbery. I did see the two attackers before that and while fighting em off/running away. I gave the police a totally useless description. Said they were dressed well for a night out. I was so sure of that. Luckily Them showing me some well dressed guys left me unable to make a identification. Few days later they cought and knee shot the real ones. Dressed poorly, same clothes as before recognized em immediatly then. But i sure would not want anybody being convicted because of me remembering/misremembering them.
My brother-in-law is a retired police detective. He told me that, not only are eyewitnesses notoriously unreliable, but when the eyewitness is the victim, their evidence is almost useless. Those witnesses aren't lying, it's just that the trauma of the situation can seriously affect their memory.
There are obviously cases where witnesses, including victims, have very accurate recall and do identify the perpetrators. But those cases are less common than we would think.
@@MrZoolook Lie detectors are completely bunk. They aren't admissible in court period.
I’ll be your alibi, Kevin
Hopefully the Law system gets better so Kevin wouldn't need you
Odd to see a verified comment so buried so far down.
😳
Are you... planning a criminal operation?
lol
people who are falsely imprisoned and finally let out are so strong. Its time they can never get back and its so sad.
Not just the time. People are cruel and I don't want to know how many times she was accused by people afterwards for something she didn't do. Together with all the psychological damage ... something like that must be terrible xx.
@@cat-le1hf exactly, outright denying retrials and withholding evidence that could clear her.
@@mlem6951: Indeed, I'm almost certain that were I falsely accused for something, I would not have the mental stability to do the time, get freed and live an "ordinary" life, doubly so if people kept saying I did it (and moreso if my innocence was proven). Maybe it's something about spending so much time away, let's just hope as few people as possible go through it to confirm...
@@mlem6951: Indeed, I'm almost certain that were I falsely accused for something, I would not have the mental stability to do the time, get freed and live an "ordinary" life, doubly so if people kept saying I did it (and moreso if my innocence was proven). Maybe it's something about spending so much time away, let's just hope as few people as possible go through it to confirm...
Dallas County DA Henry Wade racked up a mountain of false convictions, and while a lot of them weren't exposed until after his death in 2001, I don't think he ever apologized for the ones that came to light before he died. As many have found out the hard way, when you put the wrong person in prison, the "right" person often continues committing crimes. People have lost their lives because prosecutors got such tunnel vision that they refused to even look at evidence that pointed a different way.
How many false convictions does it take before people realize something is up with the prosecutor?
@@vigilantcosmicpenguin8721 subject requires additional research
Warning: researching the subject requires dangerous quantities of incompetence and malice from those being observed. Recommended course of action is full analysis of historical records and passive observation of active instances. Do not attempt to excellerate research.
@@vigilantcosmicpenguin8721 Prosecutors in the US are often elected. Often, with only one contestant running, making it a "win by default". If there is an actual election, take a wild guess how the prosecutor in charge proves his effectiveness.
Though it isn't entirely based on statistics, I would love for Kevin to talk about how people will confess to a crime they didn't do. I've heard that people will do it out of fear or to protect another person.
Tiredness,m and fatigue, both physical and mental. You break a person down and then soften your approach and say “hey if you just sign this we can stop this questioning and you can get some rest”
You sign it just for some peace and assume you will get a chance to consult with a lawyer to get to the real truth in the morning, even if you have to spend a night in jail.
People from communities disposed to trusting police and children/teenagers are especially vulnerable to this.
All this is why it shouldn’t just be “your right” to have a lawyer present, but should be a requirement for all questioning. Jury’s and judges place so much emphasis on eye witness testimony and “confessions” and so much is on the line, so someone, like a defense attorney, who is purely on the side of the person being questioned needs to be there at all times.
The Chinese government can tell you all about that
@@LilStout Don't derail this conversation, please.
@@LilStout the American government has a phd in it
Overworked public defenders normally push people to take pleas because it's "easier."
This video is incredible. The way that you’re tying in these videos you’ve been making for years and just the progression to applying it to genuine real world Situations. Just wow. Incredible job Kevin, Matt, John, and Paula
This is a great time for a reminder: never answer questions when the police ask. They aren't there to help you, they're there to get the evidence for a conviction. If the police want to "talk" to you, they probably have some kind of evidence to make a case against you, and will use anything you say to strengthen that case.
This post here. "Anything can and will be used against you", and especially if you're innocent, you don't know how what you'll say will be used.
If the police ask for information from you, it's because they think the case isn't strong enough without your testimony. If they were confident that they got it right, they wouldn't bother. Don't give them mileage if they're going for you, or someone you want to stay out of prison.
THIS ATTITUDE IS THE PROBLEM
@@1984magu "this attitude" is the same advice any lawyer worth their salt will give you.
@@cooldude6651 you have trust issues
Went to the Canary Islands and my passport wouldn't scan at the electronic gates, so I was sent to get it checked manually. Turns out someone with my name had committed a murder on the island and they were still looking for him. I said to the guy "are you joking" he said "no sir , I wouldn't joke about something so serious"
wow 😮
Of course! You fled from the murder scene and hid where they would never expect: on the murder scene, posing as an innocent tourist!
(I, unlike the airport guy, would joke about this.)
@@vigilantcosmicpenguin8721 how to get away with murder , new season coming soon 🤣😂🤣
@@vigilantcosmicpenguin8721 some people are that dumb. Just like some border control agencies can not record all the relevant ID information.
So glad you followed through on making theses style of videos. Keep up the great work Kevin!
GAGAGAGAGAGA! I will now count to 3 and then I am still the unprettiest TH-camr of all time. 1...2...3. GAGAGAGAGAGA!!! Thank you for your attention, dear bren
Really weird how this exact comment, word for word, keeps appearing.
Your older math games and paradox videos are still cool, but these real live types of videos have their own incredible vibe to them. Keep it up Kevin!
Imagine if she got executed by the murder charge before she was let out. I'm glad she didn't....
and then being a jury member getting to know you have put a innocent person into jail.
This is why death penalty should be abolished everywhere.
@@gabor6259 the death penalty should be abolished even if we are 100% sure only guilty parties are convicted of crimes, no matter how heinous. The state and society at large cannot decide for someone's life or death.
@@KyrieFortune i would consider death over life in prison what is the point of living when all it is just sitting locked in a cell if you have nothing worth living for why live.
@@noinossalg6786 Possibility of parole?
There are only 2 people in the US with my sister's exact first and last name, and she met the other one while working one day. What are the odds?
50/50
Assuming that she meets 50,000 people in a lifetime (that you get their names of) and there are 330 million people in the us.
Then one in 6600.
@@Vislon that can’t be right
@@Magnivore519 i lold
The other one is clearly stalking her. Watch out!
Her son's last words to her so incredibly impactful.
so powerful i'm literally crying
time to post this on my instagram
I wonder how much compensation these people deemed fit for her wasting 10 years in prison and for losing her son because of it.
The issues pointed out in this video remind me of a book I read once, The Book of Michael. It was about a teen that was wrongly convicted of murdering his girlfriend. Why was he convicted? Well, a teenage girl's body was found in the woods, stabbed to death. He was the last person confirmed to see her, having been seen taking her into the woods, can't remember if it was a picnic dinner or camping. Either way, Michael met up with friends a half hour after the estimated time of death, bringing into question why he would leave her alone in the woods. The murder weapon wasn't found, but was believed to be a knife, a historical artifact I believe, owned by her father that had been reported stolen moments before her death, and which Michael had shown an interest in. Finally, to put it lightly, his seed, confirmed with DNA evidence, was found inside of her, with testimony of friends and family saying she was the kind of girl that wanted to wait for marriage and that her and Michael had always been an odd choice for a couple. Meanwhile, Michael was known for having been a bit of a bad kid, from minor theft to vandalism, with an ex that was known to have brought out the worst in him.
So, teen boy with a temper goes to the woods alone with innocent girlfriend, she dies and he's almost immediately with friends, his DNA inside of her as further evidence. You can guess why they suspected him and the story they came up with. Completely ignoring his testimony that they were in love and she had wanted to make love, not believing his claim that he had rushed off to meet his friends for what he thought was an emergency, leaving her in a tent with her saying she would pack things up and see him later, dismissing the lack of a murder weapon. He was convicted and sent to prison.
3 months later, his ex girlfriend shows up, confessing it was her and bringing in the murder weapon as evidence. She wanted him back and killed the girl out of jealousy.
The reason I'm mentioning and comparing, though, is because the main plot of the book was focused on him dealing with life after months in prison. Because while he was deemed innocent and given all sorts of official apologies, people still only saw him as the guy that went to prison, they still saw him as the murderer he was falsely convicted as. And while fiction, it was heavily based on a combination of stories of it happening in reality, and even mentions some of them.
So it shows that these issues that lead to mistakes in the justice system, that lead to innocent people being arrested, can cause further issues for them even if they are later announced innocent because investigators were wrong. From cases where innocence is proven too late (they got the death sentence and were gone before the truth came out, for example) to those released for it and dealing with all sorts of injustice and discrimination from people that don't know the full story or can't get the claims out of their head. People need to be far more careful of such problems that lead to innocents going to prison
"momma, when are they gonna let you out? we arent a family anymore" i am literally sobbing wtf. this is sick and i wish all those involved in falsely accusing this woman were brought to justice
yeah it's sad but i can't really blame them i mean everything pointed to her.
@@ryanclemons1 she did it all in the span of seven minutes???
@@limesandlemons1367 I mean yeah that was a little much however it still could be done and everything pointed to her should we just let people off even if things point to them being guilty?
@@ryanclemons1Innocent until proven guilty BEYOND REASONABLE DOUBT. It's one point, but it blows a HUGE hole in the case.
@@limesandlemons1367 You know the old saying. It is better that 10 innocent persons suffer than 1 guilty escape
Just wanted to say I appreciate you opening the eyes of a lot of people to just a little bit of the reality most people tend to stay blind to. It's pretty fucked up that you can even make these videos to begin with, but I'm glad you're doing it. Thanks for the video, Kevin
Man.. the sad thing is that false imprisonment isn't even that uncommon... Ruins alot of lives :/
And our prison system is built to be cruel instead of rehabilitative, so it can in fact take people who had it mentally together, and rip that all apart from before they even set foot in that prison.
My father came back from the military and 2 days later military police showed up and wanted to take him saying he never showed up yesterday do be drafted. Thankfully his commanding officer could be reached to verify he got back home a few days ago. The person that didn't show up shared the same name AND lived in the same building.
I actually had this issue growing up. I had(have? I haven’t heard about him in 15 years.) a cousin who had the exact same name as me. He was a drug dealer who was constantly in trouble with the law. I was not exactly an angel myself, but mostly I just drove over the speed limit or forgot to renew my plates, nothing serious. BUT! Every time I got pulled over and they ran my plates, it would come back to a Nicholas Holmes who would then return my cousin who was registered in the database as “Code caution 2 armed and dangerous.” As a result I would often have the police approach my car gun drawn and I would be pulled out of my car and frisked. I would have them take my wallet out and get my license so they could run the number and date of birth and see I was a different Nicholas. It was incredibly annoying. But I’ve since moved across the country and don’t have that issue. And I was never arrested or accused of any of his crimes, so that’s a plus.
it isn't a smart idea to put your name in the TH-cam comment section
@@none-qs3sl don't think anyones gonna do something with it like
@@mitchystuff: Yeah agreed - unless the cousin (or other family members etc) would take issue, I don't think mentioning the name is any massive risk above normal...
I don't want to understate how horrendous this incident was, but please keep making amazing videos like these Kevin!! It's absolutely fascinating hearing you talk about previous errors in administering justice, and the causes and effects each one has.
this feels like the conclusion to a law case review series, and I love it so much! It never ceases to amaze me how much you truly care about the things you make videos on
I know a man in my grandfather's locality who was tortured by the police just because his name was the same as a criminal.
He was tortured so much that he lost his mental stability😔
terriable
God bless his soul. I hope he finds peace
Lies.
@@daftwod who cares if it is for this kind of stuff
@@daftwod it's up to you to believe or not
But I can say that it's true
These episodes really need to be part of a whole season with a name like “Court Science” or “Laws and Laws” (Science Laws and Court Laws) or something like that. Keep it up!
love that this series is so informative and also remains respectful to those affected!!
This seems like a case that would appear in an Ace Attorney game.
This is how it actually works in Japan, which the game is based on.
10 years for the crime you didn't even committed just imagine this.😐👀
unfortunately, the average someone who is innocent waits to get out of prison is 20 years, and alot never get out
watching that clip at the end of her saying what she’d do when she got out… she’s outstandingly strong, and it’s sad that she had to be
She was extremely lucky, she got a retrial. I would wager that is extremely rare.
Imagine believing:
"If you are innocent, you have nothing to be afraid of."
Literal fascist PfP….
@@yellow9053 explain pls?
@@Wombattlr that symbol in their pfp represents fascism. They have it in red white and blue tho, representing American fascism
FASCISTPILLED
Imagine being a Catholic Conservative and then naming your youtube account Catholic Conservative
"Hey, we caught the actual suspect what do we do with the one we falsely accused and ruined her life?"
" *Sigh* Just leave her in prison until we're starting to get backlash"
I'm so stoked to be the only one in the world named "Austin Kolegraff" thank you Great Great Great Grandpa Kohlgraf for trying to make the name sound "less German" in 1892
It seems like there's also a bias that once someone is caught up in the judicial system, there's a tendency to think that they must've done *something* or they wouldn't be there.
think about all the “criminals” who are actually innocent but we don’t realize. that’s terrifying
I've been distantly following this channel for 8+ years now, and I have to tell you, you've improved the quality of your videos over time a LOT, to the point now your videos are awesome. Keep it up!
Never talk to police inregards to an accusation folks, even if you are innocent or want to "help" the police. Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law. Even things you don't think that can. Demand a lawyer first.
That was my first thought too. A common thread I keep seeing these cases is people not exercising their right to remain silent. Never talk to police and always get a lawyer!
I’ve never had faith in the system and I never will. To this day people are sitting in prison for something they didn’t do even when science proves them innocent.
facts
Of course; because unless we have 100% surveillance "the system" can not be perfect.
At the very least, she was framed by the other woman with the same name.
She was incarcerated for 10 years…and she doesn’t seem destroyed. That’s a strong women
"im innocent"
Police: "Thats what they all sayಠ_ʖಠ"
but if they all say it, then it's gotta be true, right?
@@Morningstar_37 eh idk ask the police lol
John Swan's editing is on fire as per usual 🔥
Have false conviction compensations come out from the Police Department's pension fund and the DA's pocket and maybe they'll start thinking twice about putting the first person they get their hands on in jail.
my grandma on my dad's side was kicked out of a school for having the same name as another local young girl . the newspapers said that she was pregnant at 15 or 16 . so casually the nuns kicked her out even though their last names didn't fully match storie/story . but they dismissed this as being an error.
A place that kicks you out for that is good riddance especially it they are also religious fanatics.
@@danielsharp2402 well we are talking 70 ish years ago.
This made me remember an episode of 60 Days In where one of the undercover participants was taken to court by accident because the was another inmate in the prison with the exact same name as him
this exact scenario is why I'm giving my kids random Passwords for names.
"Dad why is my brother called Tanner Butts?"
"Because your mom thought that was a unique name no one would share"
"Thanks dad"
"No problem, S9&7h!fQ1aJK@Y3"
Ah yes the Elon Musk method of naming children.
@@flayncele that feeling when you meet someone else with a son named S9&7h!fQ1aJK@Y3"
I'm a high school math teacher and I get my students asking me, "When am I ever going to use this?" on a daily basis. I really would like them to see all of these videos just so they know that it doesn't matter if they use it or not. That having a well-educated mathematically-minded civil society is a matter of life or death for some people. One day, if my students get put on a jury, I'd hate if they convicted an innocent person just because they didn't understand or refused to learn what I try to teach them.
Well said. I'm a teacher too (art!) and constantly tell my own kids no knowledge is wasted- you don't know what you will be doing I the future, who you will meet, and so it's important to be widely informed about all sorts of matters. It's good to be smart! It's good to continue stretching your mind and finding connections. My son is very mathematical, and so here I am educating myself further on such areas to be able to have better discussions with him. I'm also fascinated with fallacies and the logical thinking blunders we can so easily fall prey to.
I've said this before and I'm gonna say it again. This series is awesome! Keep up the awesome work, Kevin & co!
Thank you for bringing a spotlight to cases like this; this is how we'll end injustice and avoid repeating history - by learning from it
sadly i wish you were right but unfortunately nothing will change
I like the last minutes which are essentially a warcry to solve injustice in the world by watching and sharing your other videos. I admire a good hustle when I see one.
Been watching your videos for years, i really like these. This one sent chills down my spine the way you tied everything together
I find true crime interesting enough, but I'm not into gruesome dramatized stuff so I generally stay away from the genre. This series is perfect, true crime that just focuses on science, I love it.
Joyce Ann brown: has name
US Court System: *I’m about to end this woman’s whole career*
I really appreciate these stories. Not only do we get to see theory in practice but we also get to honor these people who were victims of systematic errors. At the very least, we're all becoming smarter jurors
Unfortunately Joyce never received compensation for her wrongful conviction. Compensation should be automatic. Another case of the American Injustice System.
Those miss identity are scary. To share my personal experience, with few details as possible, I help a girl(miss A) to get a job at my place of work but her criminal record came back not good. She was confused cause she never got arrested in her life. She asked for my help and we went at the local police station. After about an hour or so the officer came back with a mugshot of a girl clearly different from miss A. We learned that this girl, with a pretty extensive sheet has exactly the same name as miss A, lives in a close by state and other info I won't disclose. I imagine that if it wasn't for my boss willingness to push forward into this, she would have had a hard time getting a job around here since most business use the same system to check criminal records.
Literally the best true crime videos on the platform come from this channel. It’s incredible. Fantastic job!
It’s so horrible that her son offed himself while she remanded to prison for no reason. The level of anger towards the system and helplessness that I feel imagining being in that situation is overwhelming, I don’t think that I could ever live in this country or trust anyone with power over me again in her position. She’s incredibly strong for having endured this and come out of the end as imperturbably composed as she seems to have.
This information is terrifying and heart melting at the same time...i liked that you wrapped up the video on a positive thought with a smile on her face...god bless her soul and her family...and as always keep up the good work kevin...lots of love from india...
Maybe having a very unique name would be the best. It might ruin your entire youth because until you leave school you will be made fun of and bullied because of your name, but at least no one will accuse you of a crime just because you share the same name with a criminal.
People don't care about justice, they only care about getting a culprit.
Like Tanner Butts!!
This production value is so good. Great job again, man!
Loving this murder mystery/ science videos keep them coming haha
It's surprising that the most sensible person (towards Joyce) amongst everyone mentioned in this video was the actual criminal. Ironic.
Awesome video. I really feel for her, it must have been terrible losing 10 years of her life for no real reason.
My father was almost arrested for something similar. He totaled a car hitting a deer and the police responding to the accident thought he was someone else. The was a warrant out for a guy with the same name, also am air force veteran, and a similar SSN.
Good on you, Kevin, for covering this! You are legendary!
This just shows the flaws of the criminal justice system and how careless it is, especially against BIPOC women.
Thank you for this video!
This dude just posts math videos for fun, but from time to time he finds some massive murder mystery to talk about. This is why I follow the channel
Excelente video, excelente serie. Cunado la cosa se pone un poquito contraintuitiva, el cerebro humano inmediatamente entra en piloto automático y sobrevienen los errores. Gracias Kevin por hacernos pensar en eso.
This should be a TH-cam Originals or Netflix because I really love it and it's really high quality
She could have sued the state for wrongfully conviction and the lack of emotional support for her son and his suicide. Don't understand why the community is so fragmented. People should question and put pressure on the justice system and hold the investigation team and related parties accountable.
Popo: "Wouldn't you know it, yet another cellmate of yours told us under oath that you confessed to some more crimes. Back to prison you go."
This video series has been some of the best content I've seen on this site ever. Keep up the good work!
My name is extremely common-about as many as “Michael Stevens”. Hell, I’ve *worked* with someone who has my exact name, not once, but twice. The bad part is I could be easily misidentified if any of my other name-doppelgängers decides to commit a crime, but the good part is that it’d be easy for me to explain that it’s probably a case of a name mixup and for them to go find the right person with my name.
“What are the odds someone with YOUR name commits a crime?” …well, with MY name? Zero!
I can't help but laugh at "Lorraine Germany". Imagine visiting France with such a name
ikr
It's kinda oxymoronic
Jon Wheeler, who goes by ProtonJon online, almost wasn't allowed into university because someone with his exact name in his region had applied to a different university at the same time, so local authorities thought they were the same person... and I thought _that_ story was crazy. This is a whole new level.
My grandfather was a traveling salesman, and one time he stopped into a diner for lunch. The waitress kept giving him a weird look, and finally asked if he had a twin brother. He said he had brothers, but no twin, and not in that area. She pointed to a guy at the other end of the restaurant who she said looked just like him.. and he did. He went over to introduce himself, and turned out the guy had the EXACT SAME first and last name. As far as they could tell there was no direct family connection.
Now (since my grandfather was the out of towner) imagine if he'd decided to rob the place instead of getting a bite to eat.
wow 😮
Well, it also came down to the fact she was black, and lived in Texas. 110% that is part of the reason why.
In the US this is way too common, so many innocents get jailed just to meet the for profit jails quota's. Justice isn't really something that US prosecutors care, all about the moneys.
I have liked this channel for several years now, but I wanted to let you know that I absolutely love these last few videos. All of the paradox videos have made me think, but this latest series shows the real life harm of our inability to use our logical thinking brains effectively and instead use our gut and short cut thinking to determine the fate of individuals and millions of people around the world.
and there's confusion over why some people don't have faith in "the system"... point made.
I am happy for the more consistent uploads. The rise of these crime videos is also really interesting.
Thanks for this.
Wow, what a story.
Love that you kept this idea and turned it into a series.
The coincidences make it sound more like the people guilty framed Joyce instead of them actually being coincidences.
Someone I know actually has to live with this problem. Everytime he applies for anything he's required to do a security background check since the other person is actually a registered criminal.
No ketchup, just sauce, raw sauce
V sauce
This sort of happened to one of my coworkers. The background check for him returned that he had an extensive criminal record including murder, and our office apparently was very concerned. They called the police on him and he got arrested. He spent 3 nights in jail before they realized that it was just a person with the same name. And the real kicker, is the way they found out is when they told Ohio they had the guy, and Ohio Prison System told him that they didn't because the guy was already in prison and had been for 5 years.
ugh, it's always the eyewitness getting it wrong.
anybody who played among us (bear with me) knows that even with bright and unique colors, finding the killer isn't easy
These are the only robbery documentaries that doesn't have "she was good, until she was bad"
Just because the FDA approved something doesn't fill me with confidence. For example they approved Aspartame and banned Stevia even though they knew at the time it could cause cancer and Stevia did not. But Aspartame was much more profitable and they caved to the company lobbying for it.
Not murder, but someone tried to garnish wages based on my name. Probably 7 or 8 years ago, our payroll person told me they had received a call about settings up a garnishment against my wages. She told them that they had the wrong person even though they kept insisting that she just didn't know. So glad she was stubborn about it because I can only imagine how much trouble it wouldn't been to get my money back. I immediately warned my dad (who has the same name) and made it a point to tell my payroll person when I changed jobs. Guessing they did a little more research and stopped going after me when she told them that were wrong because I haven't heard anything since.
Came for math got the big sad instead
Jesus Christ I almost cried. Her son killed himself and she had to waste 10 years of her life all because of a stupid coincidence. What a depressing video. I hope her organization is still going strong.
This unfortunately isn't an uncommon thing for poc to experience
Keep up the good work Kevin
Great job, Kevin! I'm loving this series, and look forward to all new videos you put out. Keep up the good work!
I don’t know how you managed to go through this entire video without mentioning racism a single time.
Yeah, it does feel like the interrogator especially was suspicious when he said that they knew she was lying when they have no way to prove that, and the fact she couldn't have physically done it, leads to some pretty easy detective work to figure out how it ended up this way.
Been watching in the background since the very beginning, best video you've made yet Kevin. Good stuff.
I must say Kevin, for the longest time you were my least favorite of the "Vsauces", but not anymore. Your clear effort for regular uploads, the various videos about statistics and math thought-experiments and now these videos bridging the theoretical to real-world examples, as if answering "sure but what is this useful for?" before people get to ask it. Wonderful. the playful and serious persona in the different videos also helps in showing the seriousness fo these cases and it really come through. Well done.
He's basically the only vsauce still uploading regularly isn't he?
My brother shares his name with a real POS in the area. He's been shunned before and has had to explain "no, I'm not THAT DAVE!"