I agree. The contemporary service of modernity is loud, shallow, emotional, and for those who are not moved by singing the same phrase over and over until their brains fall out, a nothing burger. Church has become a family funville weekend vacation. "Be still and know that I am God."
Consider - good music is the result of a society with the infrastructure to do musical training. Back when the supreme Court decided to tell communities that they had to fund women's sports at the same level as boys high school football, many school districts raided money is for the arts from elementary school to pay for girls high school sports. Food for thought. What happens if we look at that through the lens of asking the question "what are their burdens", And "how do we help?" Galatians 6:2
@@IronPoorBlood I fully agree. Many music and arts programs have been sacrificed. I'm not sure I get your reference to Gal 6:2. Are you saying, "Get involved?"
(in a hurray, please pardon a lack of editing) My denomination had a lot of discussions about The Law, the Antinomians, etc. The solution to all problems was to repent, becuse all of your problems were due to your sin. A perfect setup to try and become masters of our own "providence". The very issue that sinks many addicts, see the AA Big Book in the section that starts with "Is he not a victim of the delusion that he can wrestle satisfaction out of this life if he only manages well". If you don't, god will get ya. Any conservativism can be used by the evil one, ".... his craft and power are great...", becuse who I am can become defined by externals, idols. Or belonging to Christ can become spirtual formation via my efforts vs. receptive via his abundant giving. And that, the fail of conservativism this way, including liberal conservativism, has a lot to do with personality and psyche health. I developed a terrible case of Clinical Major Depression that derailed my entier life, just as our four children were becomming independent, late 2007. To this day, they still do not understand what happend. John Mac Arthur, Jay Adams and the like are very damaging in that arena. Standford's Robert Saplosky very helpful. Note, I had been highly vetted in everyway, including psychological, to be trusted with high responsibilties in a classifed enviornment. I'm way over educated, two BS degree's. Remember Bush saying the Patriots had hit 41 out of 42 scuds? I knew better, and I knew he, a christian, was manipulating christians, greatly - we were used. I had to default to the relatavising of morality nurmberg defesnse for my ethic "I was only doing as I was ordered". It took me forever to give up my enhanced by studing the minutia of the law black and white thinking narcissism. You cannot cause or enhance splitting in the ego, and then expect people to get along with others, including thier own family. See the section on relationships under "Wikipedia Psychology Splitting". Then I crosssed Gal 6:2, and started thinking more about peoples burdens then thier sin. My old cohort thought I could have saved my situation if I would only repent, right? WRONG. And remember, a man who will not provide for his own is worse than an unbliever. I lost just about everything and everyone before the wreakage stopped moving. The book "The Body Keeps the Score" was life changing. A friend gave me the book "Tatoo's on the Heart" after they heard Fr. Gregory Boyle on NPR. His ideas on Kinship are outstanding. I found his way a much better way to be. Another example, a good one, see "Monty Roberts a Real Horse Wisper" on TH-cam if you've not. His father broke in wild horses by subduing "the beast" through force. Monty watched, learned, and then basically started "pastoring" horses the way a mare would, after he had observed such in the field. His "abusive" father's way typifies 95% how most christianity, with prejudice, assumes the why of human issues, Monty typifies Christ. Women are known to faint watching him. We ALWAYS move towards a sense of Safety. What we feel safe with has more todo with the shape of our personality and life experince than anything else. The group I was with for ten years was very rational, cognative, detailed, authoritiran, focused endlessly on repenting of sin. Exiting was a misserable cult like expriance. We tend to move away from what made us feel unsafe in our family of origin. My faith started in the rational and rigid, becuse my childhood home was the opposite. Others start in the more open, free and less controlling settings becuse thier home was overly controlling. As we age, we move towards the center, or sometimes to the opposite extreme. But, it's all about feeling safe. Luthers' ideas on Law and Gospel have been very very good for me. We, society, are now having a BIG discussion about the nature of consiousness. John MacArthurs musings about mental health are dabbling in that. Thus, Luther's sermon "The Devil is a Thief who Breaks into an Empty House" lands squarly on the right solution to issues of psychology, psychiatry, theology and what it means to be a "me". John 17"22 is fasinating. I'm still me, still self-differentiated, but in the devinity with all the Glory the father gave the son. Ya cannot make that stuff up. And it is ONLY Christian.
I belonged to a church that had a senior pastor for 20 years. While he was well regarded, people disliked his only having the "Top 40" or "Golden Oldies" of hymns. When I said I liked his selection, people questioned who old I was. I was young, but my mother grew up going to Baptist tent meetings in the 1930s and 1940s. Between her singing and George Beverly Shea LPs, I heard old, old hymns.
The sacred has been removed. Going into a giant warehouse space with bands and skits and screens. Children separated into their own spaces. No thank you
Here is what I think. Many evangelical churches focus on bringing in new attenders with consumerism. The best music, light shows, master speakers, hip clothing etc. Then surprised when people leave for the next shiny thing that they learned was important at church.
I don't think they are surprised, it's an expected part of the model. They know it means a high turnover. It works for their church in terms of finances etc, so that's what they do.
It hurts so much to go to church- just can’t do it anymore after 30 years. Class is at the center of so very much going on in our country. As a single woman, though I am warm, friendly, intelligent and giving ,I am actively ignored - even shunned - seen as a possible liability, not a contributing member w a spouse and children. I am so profoundly lonely when I go to church. I don’t experience that level of painful loneliness anywhere else - and I realize it’s because I expect and desire to have a connection with fellow believers in Christ. I am able to perceive stuff before others - I knew the performing bands with the empty repetitive songs were well on the way out a few years ago. still, churches seem unaware and continue to invest in more performance related activities. This last Sunday I went to a church - at the time of the communion an extremely loud song was played and sung by the band. Communion needs to be a time of quiet reflection and reverence and the music, if any, needs to support that. An evangelical church that I used to go to, recently purchased the entire shopping center in which the church was located, saying that this purchase was a way to better serve Christ. I don’t understand why, but it’s saddened me greatly.
@@cathcolwell2197 Maybe find another church and align yourself with a small group of similarly situated believers. Sometimes it is hard to feel a part of a really large group where there is not much interaction. There are many small churches who would welcome a warm, friendly, intelligent woman.
I'm 50 something and a single woman raised by a single mother, going to church 40 yrs. I can say for certainty churches don't like single women especially ones with kids. They're afraid you might need something or want to steal someone's husband.
Sounds like you're only interested in a church that caters to you instead of you going and serving. Stop looking for someone to meet your needs and start meeting others' needs.
We attend a church that is a growing church. We move into a new building in 12 weeks, twice the size of the one we are in. It's all about the love we feel from the members of the congregation, the many small groups, our many local missions, the willingness of so many to serve and give, and God speaking to us through our pastors. We are a generous church and God has blessed us because of that. Our pastor recently said during his sermon series called Bearing Fruit, "I know, a few of you have it altogether. You need to find a new church because we will mess you up. I know the pastor, and he's a mess." We are not a perfect church, and we need each other to help us with our imperfections and flaws. We are mostly middle class and lower, but we also have a handful of well off members. We are especially seeing a surge of young families. We may be growing, but our pastor says our goal is not to be the largest church, just the best and healthiest church. We are reaching the unchurched.
Great insights. As a pastor and follower of Jesus who uses video and computer screens all week, I long for a space on Sunday morning where I can worship along with my fellow Jesus followers without screens and videos. Perhaps even opening a hymnal and a Bible during worship?!
Science speaks to very different questions than does Christianity or any religion. The pioneers in modern science dating back to Newton, Boyle, Kepler, Pascal, Locke and then later Maxwell and Faraday were devout Christians who realized that their religious beliefs were not only consistent with science but fundamental to science. If there were no Logos, there would be no rational and enduring nature to the cosmos. If the human mind were not created in God's Image, we would not be rational by nature and could not reason to the truth via the scientific method when that method of gaining truth was pertinent. Now Darwin, full-bore, is wildly inconsistent with Christianity and is also wildly inconsistent with the science. If Darwin were correct about materialism and how the human mind developed, then we would not be rational truth seekers. Rather our minds would have evolved only to survive and not be fully able to recognize the truth of matters in the world or certainly not higher pursuits such as philosophy, music, literature, higher mathematics, aesthetics. In fact, if materialism were true, then consciousness would not have developed at all. Materialism cannot account for the human mind. See the academic literature that is traced to David Chalmers on what he terms as the "Hard Problem" of consciousness for the materialist. Atheism and materialism are not science. They are at odds with science. What you are confusing with science is scientism, which has been philosophically discredited long ago but more fundamentally leaves a spiritual void in people’s lives as well as in the framework of any community.
You and past guests have spoken to this topic before and I am a litte surprised it was unmentioned here; A great many of those that do not attend, and another great many of those that did, do not see people that regularly attend living their stated beliefs. They see hypocrasy and are unwilling to participate. Until Churches deal with that, things will continue to spiral downward. Thank you for your work Carey.
Excellent point - that is why I quit my church- 8:46 at a bible study I was asking for prayers for my 23 year old niece who was dying of cancer - another lady prayed the the builders of her 1 million dollar house would start working on it (she was living in a nice home while waiting) that was the last straw - I had seen the hypocrisy - the pastor was wonderful so I now watch him online.
@@2wheelz3504 not interested in debating and I am exhausted with explaining it. I think you understand my point. If not we can take it off line. This is not the venue.
If you asked a pastor a generation or two ago what his gift was he was likely to say "pastor" or shepherd". Now they're more likely to say "evangelist". Pastors don't have the connection with the members anymore. They want to catch the fish but not do the dirty work of cleaning them.
Yes! Good point! These mega churches are very depersonalized and the pastor many times does not take time to meet with people who need help in their lives. The exception is Andy Stanley but then he has compromised his commitment to the truth of Christianity as a supernatural religion. He has become a theological modernist and now focuses on meeting people's needs as did liberal Protestants in the past while leaving behind the spiritual and moral force of Christianity. Even in smaller churches, many Evangelical pastors fear this same dynamic. They fear that if they also bore in on helping people in their individual spiritual needs or personal and material needs, then the focus would go off of salvation and spiritual development with the attendant denial of the supernatural and the spiritual. Unfortunately, this trade-off has characterized Christianity in the past century or so as if these aspects of the Gospel were mutually exclusive when they are not.
Point 3 - it’s why we chose the church we did when we realized we wanted to be in the church every Sunday. We chose a small Episcopal church with authentic people and a simple, quiet service. People there are seeking to learn Jesus’ message and use it in their everyday lives. Less presentation, more presence - it works!
However, mega churches who preach the prosperity bible are growing. It all about God giving "me, me, me" to have continued success, to thrive, to grow, to flourish, and to have wealth and good fortune. I too want a BMW just like my pastor. Janis Joplin; "Oh Lord, won't you buy me a Mercedes Benz? My friends all drive Porsches, I must make amends". When you realize churches are just corporations with brand management, then its time to join the unaffiliated.
@@patriciaperry2028 Good advice. I'm starting by joining The Churches Hunger Outreach Center Food Bank. Jesus links feeding the hungry to ministering to himself. I figure its time to get back to basics and take action vs. sitting in a pew and questioning a ministers motives.
Here is what I see as the main problems. I'll open with the admission that I am a devout Evangelical Christian and rarely attend church. One thing is it's too early. I am night owl and have a hard time getting up and going to church and then not be exhausted the rest of the day. But most people are not wired up as I am. So, that is not the issue with most people who believe as I do with their move away from attending church. But even if there were more evening services, which are increasingly rare, I would still not be that interested in attending any church service that I am aware of that is around me. When I lived in Atlanta, my hometown, I regularly attended the First Baptist Church of Atlanta when Charles Stanley was the pastor. I still regularly listen to his sermons. They are deeply meaningful to me and give me insight into my relationship with God and how God works in the lives of the people in the Bible and how those same principles apply to my life. Listening to Dr. Stanley is a profound and rewarding experience. Another church that I also attended regularly in Atlanta was Mt. Paran Church of God when Paul Walker was the pastor. Dr. Walker was not a profound as Dr. Stanley but his service was very intense featuring a gifted choir. Dr. Walker presented how God cares for us and works in our lives. He was very encouraging and uplifting. He had a tremendous sense of humor that took the burden of life off of my shoulders. There was also a direct and palpable sense of the Holy Spirit in the service so that I felt the presence not so much of Dr. Walker and the other people who themselves were very friendly and welcoming as important as those influences were, but more importantly I felt a profound spiritual presence permeating the church service. I felt the reality of the supernatural and the supernatural originating in God and not the Occult or some mystical Eastern religion, both of which provide a real sense of the supernatural and a sense of "something more" but of the wrong sort. I attended Buddhist services in Atlanta that were offered by the same sect as the Dali Lama. They also created this very visceral spiritual sense but I know it was demonic. But it was more real and powerful than most Christian church services today. Mt. Paran presented a similar sense of the supernatural but of the kind that is Divine, not demonic. With too many Protestant churches, this sense of the Divine is missing. These aspects of what drew me to church are absent in every service in every church that I have attended since the loss of these figures from the past generation. Finally, the church is a civic organization whether or not people want to think of it that way. Another church that I attended in Atlanta was Peachtree Presbyterian Church. I got into going to church there because I exercised in their gym and got to know people whom I really liked and respected. It was enjoyable being in the church because of the people whom I met in activities that I enjoyed participating in, and Peachtree Presbyterian Church had a lot of activities that interested me. I did not get much out of the services spiritually, but I did like being on their campus and interacting with people who I related to. That point brings me to a point that many people will not like in the abstract when I say what I am about to say very bluntly but it is a big factor in the decline of many civic organizations including churches and that is racial, ethnic, linguistic, class diversity. As churches reach out beyond their neighborhoods or sections of town to draw in more people, the congregation can become more diverse. While I want everyone to come to know Jesus as their Savior, I don't care to personally associate with just anyone and everyone here on earth. Most people whether or not they want to admit it share the same sensibility. What I liked about Peachtree Presbyterian Church was fitting in with the people there and forming friendships with them. That is not possible in a diverse body of people. It just is not. Social scientists such as Robert Putnam have documented what I am touching on and these studies have been replicated over and over again. One mega-study reviewed 83 of these studies and in every study the researchers found that diversity leads to a loss of social trust as it fragments the population so that even those who are similar flee one another. This tendency is behind the breakdown of civic organizations across the board.
I sure appreciate you, Carey - these aren't easy issues to figure out - I solo pastored for 10years at the turn of the millennium and pretty much burnt out trying. I honestly can't even imagine trying again in today's American culture. it's A TALL order to try and pastor - as never before in this country especially.
1 reason that people arnt going to church anymore is that parents have there kids involved in sports on Sundays.well it would help if the people that plan sports wouldn't schedule sports on Sunday mornings.
While the three initial points seem to me to be something of a stretch, your points regarding what people want is on point. The reality is that throughout history, people leave churches due to their personal self-serving nature rather than being servants of others. When the rich young ruler found out what Christ said he needed to do, he left. So also this applies today.
“Less production, more Presence” is the whole thing for me. I’m 62. I’m a PK and a lifelong Christian. I have not attended church regularly for two years now. And your point number three is the reason why.
Hi, brother. I agree on the less production thing. I'd encourage you though to find some sort of church community, because we're called to live life in fellowship. Whether it's a few folks you gather around a table with or a formal congregation that perhaps feels comfortable "enough." I spend half my time feeling uncomfortable in my church community and the other half the time feeling like everything is perfect, but 100% of the time I feel like I'm where God wants me. God bless you! ❤🙏
The milk has gone sour, the meat has been sacrificed to idols and the noise irritates your digestive system. Politics instead of prophecy, prosperity instead of charity and a sin beating every week has destroyed the hope of my salvation.
I’m not sure I understand or agree with the affluence reason, but everything g else you share is true. I’ve been a church attendee my whole life and am reaching the point of stepping away from institutional Christianity - because I have grown so much more by participating in pars-church ministries and Bible stories than the usual organized religion. I can grow deeper in 4 days in a spiritual retreat than in 2 decades of regular attendance at a typical church. How is it that the organized church is all about harnessing people to get them busy supporting the programs and learning tips and techniques and yet somehow miss the mark and make the faith way more complicated and burdensome than it was supposed to be. Jesus said take my open because my burden is easy and light. Church participation feels like a heavy and complex burden even though it has morphed over the years by trying to become “seeker friendly” and yet somehow must have simply gone apostate and feel like a needlessly complicated elementary school. Lots of activity and yet. It deepening in discipleship and a growing relationship with Christ . And I have found this true across a range of formerly mainline Protestant denominations.
I was supprised @5:24 you said less presentation and more presence! Ive been preaching thie same this for months. I stopped all PowerPoint, all print ups, and have cultivated a service geared toward pursuing Presence and following the fire. Less events and more saturating prayer and soaking in His presence. I was shocked when you said less presentation and more presence! That's how they added 3k overnight in Acts. 1. Unity in seeking 2. Holy Spirit showed up 3. Presence through outbreak and outpour shifted to occupation and hosted presence 4. The church grew That's how the church grew and I determined to stay with that system. Thank you. I figured you were going to give some 3 step plan that has all kinds of resources about culture and generational needs. All of which is addressed by the PRESENCE OF GOD.
Perhaps the people with two fulltime jobs that barely meet the bills, aging parents and adult children who can't afford a house are using weekends to just connect with their wellness. And the church just makes more demands.
My mother was a piano teacher. Even when she wasn’t playing the organ or piano for worship services, she and Dad often participated in other ways. Both of them sang - sometimes solos and sometimes duets. They often read the scripture readings or the announcements. Dad was a lay “elder” (he was in his late 30s when I was born) so, depending on the size of the congregation and how often a pastor was available, he and other elders took turns preaching. According to my mother, I was “raised in the front pew of the church” and that continued to be where we sat during services, even after my three siblings were born. Between the late 1940s and the late 1950s, our parents were members of three different congregations in three different towns but all three had some characteristics in common. 1: The lay elders took turns conducting the worship services. When a pastor was available to preach, his role in the service was to lead in a “pastoral prayer” and to preach the sermon. The “elder of the day” invited laypersons, at least a week ahead of time, to lead out in all other aspects of the service. The pastors didn’t follow a liturgical callander but they always let the elders know well ahead of time what the primary Bible passage for the sermon would be and that passage was read by a layperson (usually not an elder) BEFORE the sermon. Not only that, but the people who read the Bible passage announced the Book, chapter and verses and then gave people time to find the passage so they could follow along as it was being read aloud. This practice precluded something I’ve encountered more and more in recent years - pastors beginning to read a Bible passage and then inserting their own commentary in ways that are confusing to people who aren’t already acquainted with the passage in question. (Is this sometimes intentional?) 2: Some of the sermons were more inspirational than doctrinal but most of the sermons were of such a nature as to encourage members and visitors alike to search the scriptures to see whether those things (what the preacher said) were so. It was years later before it ever occurred to me that some people just believe whatever the preacher says. 3: Most of the pastors and some of the lay elders had developed what our parents called a “preaching voice”, i.e. they had learned to project their voices so that a congregation of 150 people could hear them easily, even without electronic amplification. Because our parents were musicians, they had learned similar techniques known, back in the day, as “the culture of the voice” BUT neither the pastors nor the lay elders shouted and they never paced back and forth while preaching or otherwise “worked themselves into a lather” as if to imply that if they were willing to work that hard at preaching, what they said must be important. 4: Those three congregations used both hymns and gospel songs but a high percentage of the congregational singing was pitched to make it easy for the congregation to sing 4-part harmony. (I have a theory that if people would sing more harmony at home, in church meetings or even in bars, there would be more harmony in society.) 5: Those three congregations had two types of membership: One type was available to people who attended regularly (and “regularly” was carefully defined). Having their names enrolled as members gave people a sense of belonging. (That may be more important to some people than to others but I think there are significant numbers for whom it is important.) The second type of membership didn’t even require “regular” attendance but did involve doctrinal and behavioral criteria. Most of the people who met those criteria not only attended regularly but were “active” in other ways, including holding a variety of offices so the pastors could be free to preach, do pastoral counseling and conduct baptisms, weddings and funerals. Almost everything else can be done by laity and preparing for such responsibilities helps keep people studying not only their Bibles but how to organize for real-time service to other members of the congregation and to members of the larger community. Three months ago, my wife and I moved to a place 2,876 miles from any place we ever lived before. We have no vehicle so we have watched several worship services online. I would like to find a nearby congregation the services of which I can recommend to our neighbors should the subject ever come up but our sense is that hardly any congregations hold elections anymore. Offices tend to be held by “volunteers” whose primary qualification is that they are willing to accept some responsibilities - or they think they are the one best qualified for the office in question which is worse. (See Philippians 2 beginning with verse 3.) Hardly any laity even know how to read Bible passages so as to be intelligible to people who hear them read. Hardly any laity know how to research a biblical topic for themselves using marginal references and concordances (or the Internet) to find passages on the subject in question. Are the clergy intentionally keeping the laity in ignorance of those Bible study tools to encourage the laity to depend on the clergy for guidance? I’m asking for suggestions from anyone who understands how these failures are contributing to a decline in not only attendance but in participation.
I am a senior and I have found that the knowledge of the Bible is at an all time low for pastors and laity. One church we attended the “pastors” took a two week online class on Bible study as their qualification to be a pastor and still demanded a six figure income ! The music was so loud that my ears rang for several days afterwards and I don’t want to loose what hearing have left. The people in the church were rude and did not want seniors in there. I have watched many of these videos on why people are leaving the church and they all basically say the same thing. The people are bad and it is never the pastors fault. We have found some excellent churches online and we watch them. I am glad we came to Christ in better times!
@@johngreen1776 My religion is personal - not institutional. When I say that, I think I mean something similar to what some other people mean when they say, for example, “Christianity isn’t a religion, it’s a relationship” or “I’m spiritual - not religious.” So why am I intentional about using the language I do (and not using those other statements)? I’m a citizen of the United States where it is common to define religion as “theism” and where many people assume that all theistic religions are institutional. I hope the language I use serves to challenge both the definition and the assumption. So here’s the definition of “religion” I’ve been using for several decades: Religion is the sum of those beliefs, practices and prohibitions that pertain to a person’s concept of the highest powers of the universe. 1: That definition includes both personal and institutional religions. 2: That definition includes both theistic and ostensibly non-theistic religions. It includes, for example, people whose god is their belly. (Philippians 3:19 ) Our parents read Bible stories to my siblings and me. They encouraged and helped us memorize Bible passages. (I had memorized more than 150 passages before I was ten.) But they (perhaps Dad even more than Mom) encouraged us to read for ourselves, study for ourselves and think for ourselves. To facilitate that kind of personal study, they taught us how to use concordances and marginal references (this was before we ever heard of the Internet) AND they taught us about such reformers as John Wycliffe (fourteenth century) Jerome of Prague and Jan Hus (late fourteenth and early fifteenth centuries), Martin Luther (sixteenth century), the puritans (especially those who traveled to North America in the seventeenth century), the Wesley brothers (eighteenth century) and other would-be reformers. The reformers haven’t always agreed with each other but the reforms they advocated were based on their study of the Bible and their conviction that, while not all religious traditions are necessarily bad, the authority of scriptures should be considered primary. This raises an interesting question: Why are there so many different interpretations, even among people who may be studying the same Bible translations? The first answer I was able to articulate occurred to me in the 1950s. The Bibles our parents had given my siblings and me had 66 books with stories about Adam, Eve, Abraham, Israel, Joseph, Moses, Joshua, David, Solomon, Ruth, Daniel, Esther, Daniel and Jonah but many of the other children in our neighborhood had Bibles with covers marked, “New Testament and Psalms” or “New Testament, Psalms & Proverbs” so those children were better acquainted with stories about Mary, John the baptist, Jesus, Peter, John the Apostle and Paul. It wasn’t until the 1980s that someone suggested to me that I might benefit from studying the origins of various METHODS of Bible interpretation such as the historicist method, the preterist method, the futurist method and the idealist/alegorical method. That’s when I discovered that my earlier observation about some people only reading “part of the Bible” was actually quite relevant. Reformers who were acquainted with the Hebrew Bible (the earlier books originally written in Hebrew) tended to use the historicist method of Bible interpretation. People who were less acquainted with the Hebrew Bible tended to use other methods of interpretation. ‘ What does this have to do with the “evidentialist” approach to “defending Christianity”? Yes, Jesus did miracles and yes, some people did believe he was the true Messiah because of his miracles (John 2:23 and 7:31) but Jesus more often appealed to the Hebrew Bible in support of both his teaching and his claims about himself. The strongest evidence (see Hebrews 11:1) of his Messiahship are the prophecies about him by the Hebrew prophets of antiquity. Jesus was an observant Hebrew. Yes, he sometimes didn’t agree with the “oral traditions” and rabbinical interpretations of the Hebrew Bible but he was careful to live by the instructions that he, before his incarnation, had given through Moses. (Compare Exodus 3:13 & 14 to John 1:1-3 and chapter 8:56-59.) Jesus observed Passover (Luke 2:40-43, chapter 22:7, 8, 14 & 15). He died on Passover at the time of day when the Passover Lambs were sacrificed. He rested in a borrowed tomb on the same day that he had rested after creating life on this planet. Hs followers rested on that same day rather than embalm his body on the day he had blessed, sanctified and said to remember. None of which was understood by professed Christians during the more than a thousand years when it was actually illegal in western Europe to try to live as Jesus had lived. So no, I have no sense of duty to make a case for “Christianity” (or at least what most people think Christianity is). Instead, I suggest that people obtain a Bible with marginal references and actually read the prophecies that are quoted by Matthew and by Jesus as evidence that he really is who he claimed to be. Then you decide. Do you prefer to follow only the instructions he gave after his incarnation? Or do you prefer to also follow the instructions he gave before his incarnation and by which he lived for his about 33-1/2 years of life on Earth?.
Let the pastor start preaching about holiness, sanctification, being separated from the world. Fasting and praying, tithing. Will people still go oor will they stop. Is the church available for the people? Do they have Sunday night Church? Midweek service? Friday or Saturday youth services? Anything special for youngbsingle adults?
As a boomer who was part of the Jesus Movement of the 70’s, most of my life Church was a consistent part of our family life. While we embraced the contemporary Christian music or our time, it was not necessarily incorporated into services, which remained somewhat traditional. It was a good mix. These days, try as I might, I simply can’t handle the loudness and inanity of of what is called. “Worship music.” Honestly, it is insulting to have the amps “turned up to 11” while most people simply stand as if attending a concert. This is not in my opinion, corporate worship. Rather, it is performance. At this point, we are sort of giving up on attending church, but will remain committed to our regular study of Gods word with friends and living as a community of believers. Sad to say it, but that’s what it has come to. Hopefully, in heaven, we will hear an occasional melodic cello, violin, oboe and trumpet. We simply can’t stand what now passes for church music. A whole lot of other folk are in the same camp. Too bad.
One distinction not mentioned here is which groups have decreased in attendance. Research demonstrates that young people are less inclined to participate in church attendance. They have been watching, in the case of Christians, their Christian elders and families avoid the way and teachings of Jesus in favor of political ideologies which do not in any was resemble his word and example. Churches have also been rocked by scandals similar to those centuries ago. The abuse of minors by clergy in the Roman Catholic Church to the point where dioceses go bankrupt as they pay for the hurt caused. The pastors of mega churches, who preach a gospel of prosperity, and live in their million plus dollar homes and drive their elite cars. It was these behaviors that have led to reformations throughout history. The value of a community, a community of faith, may have less appeal. The division and hatred of our time does not inspire community for many, as it is not viewed as a safe space. As one who attends church regularly, I am blessed to be in a community of open minds, hearts and doors.
Many believers often forget that we once did and still do things to minimize time with God/church because we do not like to be told what to do. Many of us barely worship on our time then go to assembly and expect to be served. It's on us to go to church and seek God. Purpose of the church building is to minimize distractions and focus on God. Many people do not want to hear God's truth anyway. To church leaders, keep on trusting and working for God. Serving God is not a popularity contest. Lift Jesus up and draw true hearts and expect few people.
great ideas, good video. I agree with all but the "less head more heart". My experience, people are sick of emotional nonsense. They want their faith to make sense. Goes along with the less noise, more space. Slow down, enjoy the quiet, think! Once again, a great video, good ideas I'll bring up at my next bible study. Thanks for posting this.
I know many people who think churches are too political. Laws are powerless to change people only a spiritual connection with Jesus can do that. The move churches have made towards political power has been going on for years but accepting Trump as their savior is driving many out!
That's the main reason for me also. Some might deny it and say not all churches. I spent a couple years wholeheartedly seeking one that didn't. Had no luck with my search. I got the sense that those churches really don't want a non worshiping apricot antichrist around either. I see it as a win win for both me and them.
I've pastored the same Baptist congregation for 24 years now. We've NEVER been high-tech, high presentation. I have Quaker background so silence is often part of our services and we have ALWAYS been small enough to have a public prayer time during the service in which attenders offer praise to God or ask for prayer and we pray for them then and there. And ...no one is beating a path to our door. And my area minister assures me that we would grow IF we axed the prayer time from our service- which I'm not going to do because why would you hide the thing that is central to your identity? Anyway, I'm just saying, while we have to stay faithful and keep on, I don't think there's anything we can do to change the trend. Our culture from wealth, from spiritual self-diagnosis, and from a disdain for authority is leaving the Church behind. And we have to live through it.
Please allow me to paste my thoughts in agreement with yours. "Many believers often forget that we once did and still do things to minimize time with God/church because we do not like to be told what to do. Many of us barely worship on our time then go to assembly and expect to be served. It's on us to go to church and seek God. Purpose of the church building is to minimize distractions and focus on God. Many people do not want to hear God's truth anyway. To church leaders, keep on trusting and working for God. Serving God is not a popularity contest. Lift Jesus up and draw true hearts and expect few people."
Zooming in and out is distracting ha ha. And I appreciate the points he’s making which really do point out that Americans are increasingly selfish. They’re not asking “what can I do to serve God and the local Christian community,” but rather “what’s in it for me?” Hebrews 10:24-25 motivate me to be an integral member of my local church.
Social media...The numerous contradictions in scriptures are now given the scrutiny they deserve. With scholars answering rebuttals. Now , one can discern for themselves.....
I had a pastor, United Methodist, who felt that the sex scandals in the Roman Catholic Church hurt not only Christianity in the U.S., but all faiths. Why belong to a congregation where a pastor or other church leader (ordained or lay person) can take advantage of children, teens, young adults, or elderly? Between books, TV, and the internet, directing your own learning of the Bible means no fear of someone in church leadership taking advantage of a family member.
Thanks for the video and your insights. I spend considerable time with “fence-sitters” who likely believe in God, but don’t understand the cult-like attraction of many Christians to someone who unabashedly lies, says horrible things about the kind of people Jesus particularly loved, and has admittedly no remorse. Also, too many focus on certain sins “of the flesh” but ignore the sins of pride and judgementalism. When I speak of or show people what Jesus reportedly said and believed, his radical departure from the moral status-quo, they become more interested. However, they find too many churches that have an “us vs. them” mentality (with “us” being good of course😊) and don’t seem to appreciate what Jesus actually trying say to us.
It is noteworthy that my experiences with churches have predominantly involved institutions governed by powerful entities. These entities establish regulations and typically exercise authority and control. The governing bodies often adhere to a distinct set of principles, leading to a remarkable degree of double standards and hypocrisy. Many individuals feel inadequate in relation to the unspoken rules or these inconsistencies, resulting in a lack of belonging. I have observed churches that marginalize individuals from "less desirable" backgrounds, including those who are economically disadvantaged or different in some way. It raises the question of who would wish to spend eternity in Heaven alongside those who have inflicted harm through hatred and deceit, simply because others do not conform to the church's worldly expectations. When will the church return to its foundational principles of God and the love that should accompany such beliefs?
Wow! Thank you for giving me words to succinctly express the hollowness I've often seen. God can bless our pop show and TED talk combo when He wishes, but how much more would He move in our services if He were the real center of them? Many times, the sermon is the true center of the show and the pastor is the celebrity focal point. This service structure creates a precarious situation for a congregation. It encourages people to feel more loyal and connected to the pastor than to God, and to fall away if the pastor fails morally. As for the pop show, I've often listened to Christian performers and worship artists/bands and felt that they were getting lost in the music, not the Spirit. If you don't know there's a difference, it's easy to confuse the two, especially since for many musicians, the musical hook matters more than the meat or truth of the lyrics.
I'm with you right up until your last point. The modern evangelical church long ago prioritized the 'heart' over the 'head'. Sound doctrine has given way to emotional 'engagement' (read manipulation). Truth is being abandoned in a false dichotomy against 'love' (read sentimentality).
The age old clergy-centered, personality-driven, sermon focused church scene is unbiblical and supplants the “one another” ministry of the saints. Sell the buildings. Meet in homes for mutual edification and growth. Love and simplicity grounded in the truth of Scripture.
I think the reason is because of politics. If I wasn't already a Christian I really wouldn't want to go where people think Trump is so great, that's all they talk about.
I agree as politics and Trump is m has done tremendous damage. Its going to decrease more after the election. As a minister its many evangelicals embrace of trumpism that has done lots of damage.
What’s missing is the power of God. The presence of the Holy Spirit and the truth of the Gospel. Only in the western countries do we see this. You go to the Middle East and the far east you will see the power and presence. They are praying for us to be reformed.
A critique of some language: Affluence as defined is not financial affluence, per se. Almost everybody has gotten onto the Internet in one way or the other--that is not financial affluence as much as informational access to other opinions, as well as access to other streams of spiritual guidence. Wealth is creating some of this, but so is our overall society of cell phones and a poicy towards universal internet access. Carey is correct that financial wealth does bring options, including that of travel. In our church, many singles and couples are simply missing because they are off traveling somewhere, the singles most often for work, the couples most often for pleasure. Youth have more access to camps and sports activities, both a sign of affluence of their parents. But even the lower middle class has internet access.
Being someone who cut my teeth on the pews of one of the largest denominations, starting over 70 years ago, have witnessed firsthand (I’m a un/undereducated layman); 1. Loss of Gods power, resulting in no miracles or wonders anymore (dead as a doorstop). We measure church by how loud the music is. Ask yourself when was the last time someone gave a testimony of a great healing or miracle in your church? You couldn’t shut them up because their joy and thankfulness was overflowing. 2. We are promoters of Calvin (once saved, always saved) and it has destroyed our own church. We told a couple of generations when they were young you’re saved and you can’t be separated from God, if you continue to (practice) sin. The byproduct of this is now as we close almost 400 churches annually, we wonder why. When we interact with our past members as they age, they ask us, why do I need to attend? I’m saved, you told me so, when I was 10YO. Can’t fall away. So, we created our own monster. What I find interesting now, in this second generation of great church decline is the pastor responds to the earlier X-member, I doubt he was ever saved, as a defense. Then they respond back with, “I’ve observed our old pastor had an affair with a young lady, 20 years his junior. Was he saved prior to preaching for those many years in the pulpit? Our current pastor is having difficulty defending the pastor who filled our pulpit for 20 years, while an active pedophile. Was he anointed why delivering hundreds/thousands of sermons? 3. Having read many books of our history and of other peer denominations have learned this is common. If you read the sermons of the founders of Methodist or Baptist, etc. you will quickly see the church we attend today looks nothing like it did in the late 1800’s or early 1900’s. Our current church leaders would throw Wesley out after his first sermon as being too hard in either the Methodist or Baptist. He would deem most clergy as hypocrites and false teachers. This reminds me of a scripture in Judges 2:10, …“there arose another generation after them who did not know the Lord, nor yet the work which He had done for Israel. We removed our alters, there are few tears or joy from a great move of God. We padded our pews, which are now empty. No loud and glorious gratitude, with raised hands, to our sovereign God. No one has ever heard of fasting, much less actually fasted, including the pastor. The number of attendees who have read their Bible from Gen 1:1 to Rev 22:21 in their whole life is a very small group, not to mention a regular love for His word, which He advised was a critical part of survival. Thus, the byproduct, caused by the clergy, and repeated forgetfulness of the laymen (I’m more guilty than all), is a complete lack of knowledge and understanding of God. Jesus is now a mirror of Santa Claus, always good and certainly hasn’t killed anyone, caused a famine, great calamity, Christians never lived in caves, starved to death, were beaten over and over, exiled on an island alone, etc. We wanted to control the fire of the Holy Spirit and were so successful, we quenched Him. He has left the building and until we repent and chase Him, He will continue to ignore our prayers.
The label "Evangelical" is not used in it former context. So this is partly down to the definition expanding to cover people who do not go and are unlikely to go while others who might have fit under that label previously still attending but defining themselves differently.
I have 3 more reasons: 1--We quite going to church for over a year because people didn't take COVID cautions seriously. In fact, many proudly proclaimed their refusal to do anything to halt the spread or get vaccinated. I lost a cousin to COVID, and had other friends and family get sick. I have asthma and have had pneumonia 3 times, so I knew COVID would hit me hard. Even now, we sit in the very back, so that in singing, any germs will be carried away from us. 2--We only go in person about half the time, just because the long-winded liturgy and stilted formality can be so draining, rather than uplifting. But when we're not there in person, we are there at home watching the service on Facebook. It's just more relaxing that way, but we do "attend" online. 3--It doesn't affect our family personally, but many families are so into their kids' sports, and there are leagues that play on Saturdays and Sundays for months at a time. Several people I know or work with have several kids involved in different leagues, so that Mom goes with one kid, while Dad goes with the other one, and church just gets left behind.
In my faith we don't talk about Jesus, we enter the heart of Jesus. I've seen too much out there that "talk about", and then expect the congregants to give money. A lot of these are "old testament preachers" use old testament passages that basically teach what all the other worldwide religions teach. What does one expect when the so called Christian church has been divided?
It’s very difficult to satisfy everyone desires in a church service. Personally, I enjoy a quiet orderly service rather than a loud rock concert. Can’t stand long drawn out sermons. Keep it short, to the point, with time to congregate after the service. Unfortunately, I work hard during the week and need some decompression on Sundays. For those that want in debt learning, should attend a Bible study during the week. Actually, I prefer the Catholic Mass, the short to the point homilies, and simple singing. If one wants more, the Catholics have all kinds of conferences, studies and the like. Perhaps for some, it shallow, but for a young busy young family, it works.
Missed here is any responsiblity of the church leadership to lead. All the reasons are on the individual. I would guess that it is some of both but most should be on the leaders to really lead.
I think your second point also relates to the rise of individualism and the overall decline of community in our society. Church was a natural extension of the idea that we needed one another to survive and thrive. Now personal truth, self care, and individual happiness are valued over being an integral part of a community. In this instant gratification society where anything can be delivered to us with a click, we don’t really need anyone until we realize that we do.
Unfortunately he is missing the most important and actual reason. It is because of the actions of leaders and others who led based upon pride & power and not scripture, despite how well they crafted their exegetical sermons. Far too many have been severely burned by church folk and have become disillusioned with being a part of a particular church because they don’t want to be judged, condemned, controlled, abused, or stolen from again. In addition, many people these days have formed their own theologies and the doctrines churches teach do not perfectly align to each person’s theology, thereby removing any loyalty and collective fruitfulness.
I think the obsession with politics has taken away from organized religion. It has driven a wedge into a lot of congregations. I still attend but I do have to listen to a lot that I do not agree with from other believers.
Our pastor has bent over backward to NOT talk about politics so much so that he won’t call evil evil - I don’t appreciate that either and I’m not talking about one singular man
@ Then we should speak to the issues and give the scripture that supports the issues, but not in the context of politicians or political parties. The problem is that politics and religion have gotten so intertwined that people don’t know where one stops and the other begins. We are majoring in minors and when the world sees this, we harm our witness.
I'm surprised by how many M.Div's and D.Mins seem to have missed James 3:1 somewhere along the line. 45 minutes based on 3 verses, but very dramatic and entertaining, i.e, hammer down one point (Jesus as Savior) and missing out on the rest of the story in the same chapter(Jesus as Lord). They seem to take a victory lap because their entertainment value steals members from the smaller congregations in town.
I left the church when I realised most Christians don’t live the way Jesus taught his followers to live. In fact I saw more non Christians feeding the hungry, healing the sick, clothing the naked, welcoming the stranger, visiting the prisoner. And they do it without expecting a reward. They do good just because they are good caring people. Jesus left the church a long time ago.
Why are the 8 beautudes not posted in public buildings? The actually words of Jesus! Instead the old testament "10" commandments. Jesus came to give us the good news. Most of us are tired of hearing the old testament vengeful god!
There are fewer and fewer young people who are desiring to go into full time ministry. Many churches accross the country are without a Pastor...usually these churches are composed of older people.
How about more people self-direct their faith because what they read in God's word differs from what the Church is practicing. i.e. Sabbath, clean and unclean, festivals.
Ours isn't we are a thriving & growing church. God is ever present in all our services. Over half of our members volunteer in some sort of capacity. We are baptizing & God is filling them with his spirit.
My reasons fall in line with your #2 and 3, but I want intellectual stimulation as well as heart (eg Ben Stuart) and also, I’m tired of a lot of the self-centered music and message - “you came in being tired and defeated”; basic “come to Jesus language, niceness instead of kindness , and limited space for female intellectual development.
When church too fell into the trap of politics, then I stopped going. Politics has no place in church, in my opinion. Jesus never spoke about seeking power on Earth, quite the opposite, it is the meek and the persecuted that win favor in the eyes of God. So, many churches have lost their way. I can't help that, but I'm not going to support that either. It is their loss, not mine.
@@patriciaperry2028 I don't want my pastor calling evil evil. I want him encouraging me to stay on my path to God. I see religion as a guide for me to follow, not as a comment on others or society.
The reason church attendance has fallen is because the Lord is allowing people to see what life is like without the Holy Spirit to mitigate the consequences that are caused by ignoring the divinity of Jesus Christ. You called it affluence. It turns out this violates the first commandment. “You shall have no other gods before Me." (Exodus 20:2-3). Your second point of self directed spirituality breaks the 2nd commandment " (Exodus 20:4-6)” don’t worship idols “. You get the point 3:45
For reason 2, I also wonder how much of it is due to even people we look up as leaders or someone we expect to be knowledgeable about a subject, not having the proper education. The MDiv degree used to be the gold standard for pastors, but it's been steadily declining for years. I'm curious to see if there's a correlation between the two.
Missed here is the wholesale acceptance of Trump and his brand of conservatism by the leadership and institutions of the evangelical community and church. The utter hypocrisy of the leaders like Charley Kirk who preach the gospel of Christian nationalism yet fail to live out the gospel of Christ toward their neighbors. The gospel of Christian nationalism has no room for love, faith, hope. As a former evangelical I find nothing but disgust and contempt for American evangelicalism.
That may be because Trump is the only party leader willing to speak up for the return of prayer in schools and that he speaks up for Christianity and declared Jesus Christ as "the Boss"? I think that's why the Evangelicals have sided with Trump. What is Christian Nationalism ?
@@thecagestagecrusader In my comments I have not defined Christian nationalism yet you assume I do not know what it is because I equate certain individuals to the movement. So, pray tell, define Christian nationalism and explain to us how it aligns with the true gospel of Jesus Christ?
@jamesi.5735 the great commission where Jesus orders all Christians to go disciple the nations, teaching them to obey everything he has commanded. The civil magistrate cannot function without some ethical standard for guidance, if that standard is not the Holy and reveled law of God, what is it supposed to be?
In the end, if the focus is not on the teaching of the WORD AND THE PERSON JESUS CHRIST. Church today is like a buyers market. It suits u. u go there. If not u go somewhere else
The mainline churches have stopped talking about hell or even heaven. Many people no longer fear hell and therefore there is no reason to go to church. In addition, modern medicine as eliminated prayer as a primary form of seeking a cure.
There seems to be a focus on growing church campuses and presence in communities and not discipleship. Pastors are now CEO's and not shepherds. Too much focus on entertainment and not substance. Finding a church that believes that true discipleship is the way to grow a church is like finding a diamond in the rough!
I am very unimpressed that you did not include any data (from what I could tell in your video) about House Churches. I ended up leaving my former church and denomination when a very painful church split happened. I am now a House Church Pastor (Acts 2:41 and 42) and we have none of the elements mentioned in your piece in the two House Churches (Acts 2:42) . What we do have is a deep and open arms invitation to the Holy Spirit to have His way, His agenda, and a deep family commitment to each other. We do collect tithes that are 100% distributed to the homeless in our area. We have no morgage as we meet in homes, no power bill as we meet in homes, and the kids worship with us ( 1 person with a guitar). We are experiencing growth at a great rate. I am discipling 2 young men (20 and 23) to pastor new House Churches. We live in a depressed economic area of Maine and God is growing His church. I would dare say that as the economic times get increasingly worse in the United States ( and we are quickly heading in that direction) that House Churches will be the norm not the exception. When big ministries and mega churches are failing from decrease in revenue, God will still grow His church and Bride. It just may not look like and be the way that has been measured in the past. God bless you, keep up the great work you are doing, and I'll see you on the other side at the banqueting table.
It's been awhile, but over a decade ago a Barna Poll was done, I think it was, survaying folks contentment with thier church(s), it was found that those in house church's were the happiest and most satisfied of all. The book "The Master Plan of Evangalism" is a great observation of Christ, but almost never seen in the wild.
The real reason for declining church attendance is actually simple: churches are not structured according to the model of Ephesians 4:11-12. The 5 primary gifts are supposed to train other people like themselves to grow the body. Instead, following the flawed model of Roman Catholicism (and Jean Calvin), everything is put on the pastor. Then, they burn out or bring on other pastors to share the load. Thus, we have large churches where all the leaders are pastors. A hand cannot function correctly with only 1 finger. If you bring back the other 4 primary ministry positions, this will resolve the problem. Without all 5 in place, Christianity cannot demonstrate the spiritual power that should be present, so it becomes just another religion like so many others in the world.
"reasons you're losing church members".... because it's "your" fault. I think I'm done with this business model approach to growing our regular customer base
R.e. church and politics: food for thought, see "Wikipedia psychology splitting", and "Wikipedia psychology looking glass self". Skim through the quotes of the book "The True Believer", by Eric Hoffer on line. Narcissism is the attempt to define ourselves by externals. Creeds can be externals. Highly recommended reading is Luther's sermon "The Devil is a Thief Who Breaks Into an Empty House". I first came across it on Pastor Wolfmiller's website. No wonder that Reformation was influential.
Of his three reasons, the second two reasons have some truth. But the clergy still do not yet understand it is the basic church service itself that is the biggest problem parishioners face each week, regardless of Catholic, Protestant or Jewish. For me, synagogues have too much singing, and the Catholic Mass (Latin or not) is too ceremonial. Jesus just preached, so is that enough?
David Murrow: why men don’t go to church. Some mega churches know if you can provide meaning for men in church, women will follow. Also, the medieval church designers got it right. Too much focus today on church as entertainment.
What about the biggest and most obvious reason for decline? The elephant in the room. People don't believe in God as much as before! The threats of hell and the simplistic explanations don't work so well anymore.
I can't speak for others. My experience is churches have forgotten the second greatest commandment spoken by Christ. They are way more interested in their "online presentation" and "like" counts.
A lot of apostasy right now in the church. The key is to get a good study bible and study to show ourseles approved. We can then rightly divide the truth
INMHO the church is losing members because they're busy making (one-and-done) converts, not disciples. The Apostles got results because they obeyed Jesus when he said "Make disciples of all nations." He didn't say, "Make converts"...."do alter calls"...etc. Making a convert is easy; making a disciple is hard & requires real commitment.
![[MV] A leap of faith...ความเชื่อใจครั้งสุดท้าย (From "Petrichor the series")](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/U1piZH2CNXA/mqdefault.jpg)
I agree. The contemporary service of modernity is loud, shallow, emotional, and for those who are not moved by singing the same phrase over and over until their brains fall out, a nothing burger. Church has become a family funville weekend vacation. "Be still and know that I am God."
Consider - good music is the result of a society with the infrastructure to do musical training. Back when the supreme Court decided to tell communities that they had to fund women's sports at the same level as boys high school football, many school districts raided money is for the arts from elementary school to pay for girls high school sports.
Food for thought.
What happens if we look at that through the lens of asking the question "what are their burdens", And "how do we help?" Galatians 6:2
@@IronPoorBlood I fully agree. Many music and arts programs have been sacrificed. I'm not sure I get your reference to Gal 6:2. Are you saying, "Get involved?"
(in a hurray, please pardon a lack of editing) My denomination had a lot of discussions about The Law, the Antinomians, etc. The solution to all problems was to repent, becuse all of your problems were due to your sin. A perfect setup to try and become masters of our own "providence". The very issue that sinks many addicts, see the AA Big Book in the section that starts with "Is he not a victim of the delusion that he can wrestle satisfaction out of this life if he only manages well". If you don't, god will get ya.
Any conservativism can be used by the evil one, ".... his craft and power are great...", becuse who I am can become defined by externals, idols. Or belonging to Christ can become spirtual formation via my efforts vs. receptive via his abundant giving. And that, the fail of conservativism this way, including liberal conservativism, has a lot to do with personality and psyche health.
I developed a terrible case of Clinical Major Depression that derailed my entier life, just as our four children were becomming independent, late 2007. To this day, they still do not understand what happend. John Mac Arthur, Jay Adams and the like are very damaging in that arena. Standford's Robert Saplosky very helpful. Note, I had been highly vetted in everyway, including psychological, to be trusted with high responsibilties in a classifed enviornment. I'm way over educated, two BS degree's. Remember Bush saying the Patriots had hit 41 out of 42 scuds? I knew better, and I knew he, a christian, was manipulating christians, greatly - we were used. I had to default to the relatavising of morality nurmberg defesnse for my ethic "I was only doing as I was ordered". It took me forever to give up my enhanced by studing the minutia of the law black and white thinking narcissism.
You cannot cause or enhance splitting in the ego, and then expect people to get along with others, including thier own family. See the section on relationships under "Wikipedia Psychology Splitting".
Then I crosssed Gal 6:2, and started thinking more about peoples burdens then thier sin. My old cohort thought I could have saved my situation if I would only repent, right? WRONG. And remember, a man who will not provide for his own is worse than an unbliever. I lost just about everything and everyone before the wreakage stopped moving.
The book "The Body Keeps the Score" was life changing. A friend gave me the book "Tatoo's on the Heart" after they heard Fr. Gregory Boyle on NPR. His ideas on Kinship are outstanding. I found his way a much better way to be. Another example, a good one, see "Monty Roberts a Real Horse Wisper" on TH-cam if you've not. His father broke in wild horses by subduing "the beast" through force. Monty watched, learned, and then basically started "pastoring" horses the way a mare would, after he had observed such in the field. His "abusive" father's way typifies 95% how most christianity, with prejudice, assumes the why of human issues, Monty typifies Christ. Women are known to faint watching him.
We ALWAYS move towards a sense of Safety. What we feel safe with has more todo with the shape of our personality and life experince than anything else. The group I was with for ten years was very rational, cognative, detailed, authoritiran, focused endlessly on repenting of sin. Exiting was a misserable cult like expriance.
We tend to move away from what made us feel unsafe in our family of origin. My faith started in the rational and rigid, becuse my childhood home was the opposite. Others start in the more open, free and less controlling settings becuse thier home was overly controlling. As we age, we move towards the center, or sometimes to the opposite extreme. But, it's all about feeling safe.
Luthers' ideas on Law and Gospel have been very very good for me. We, society, are now having a BIG discussion about the nature of consiousness. John MacArthurs musings about mental health are dabbling in that. Thus, Luther's sermon "The Devil is a Thief who Breaks into an Empty House" lands squarly on the right solution to issues of psychology, psychiatry, theology and what it means to be a "me". John 17"22 is fasinating. I'm still me, still self-differentiated, but in the devinity with all the Glory the father gave the son. Ya cannot make that stuff up. And it is ONLY Christian.
I belonged to a church that had a senior pastor for 20 years. While he was well regarded, people disliked his only having the "Top 40" or "Golden Oldies" of hymns.
When I said I liked his selection, people questioned who old I was. I was young, but my mother grew up going to Baptist tent meetings in the 1930s and 1940s. Between her singing and George Beverly Shea LPs, I heard old, old hymns.
There is something to be said for how Quakers worship, sitting in a circle waiting for someone to speak.
The sacred has been removed. Going into a giant warehouse space with bands and skits and screens. Children separated into their own spaces. No thank you
Agreed
I hate church. I stopped going when Las Vegas style performance became the norm.
Yep!
Amen!
Same message, different style of worship. The church i attend is growing. 10k a weekend. The gospel is being preached.
Here is what I think. Many evangelical churches focus on bringing in new attenders with consumerism. The best music, light shows, master speakers, hip clothing etc. Then surprised when people leave for the next shiny thing that they learned was important at church.
Yep
That doesn’t explain those who simply stopped going to church all together though.
@ I feel like it does. It was all about entertainment and when that gets dry and no church does it bigger or better they check out
I don't think they are surprised, it's an expected part of the model. They know it means a high turnover. It works for their church in terms of finances etc, so that's what they do.
the real power of god will outshine all of those things every time. Nothing wrong with that list but without god it’s a net zero
Wow, sounds like he’s pinning the blame on the people. Let’s start with all the fallen pastors over the last few years…
It hurts so much to go to church- just can’t do it anymore after 30 years. Class is at the center of so very much going on in our country.
As a single woman, though I am warm, friendly, intelligent and giving ,I am actively ignored - even shunned - seen as a possible liability, not a contributing member w a spouse and children. I am so profoundly lonely when I go to church. I don’t experience that level of painful loneliness anywhere else - and I realize it’s because I expect and desire to have a connection with fellow believers in Christ. I am able to perceive stuff before others - I knew the performing bands with the empty repetitive songs were well on the way out a few years ago. still, churches seem unaware and continue to invest in more performance related activities.
This last Sunday I went to a church - at the time of the communion an extremely loud song was played and sung by the band.
Communion needs to be a time of quiet reflection and reverence and the music, if any, needs to support that.
An evangelical church that I used to go to, recently purchased the entire shopping center in which the church was located, saying that this purchase was a way to better serve Christ.
I don’t understand why, but it’s saddened me greatly.
Now this is truly sad I’m sorry
@@cathcolwell2197 Maybe find another church and align yourself with a small group of similarly situated believers. Sometimes it is hard to feel a part of a really large group where there is not much interaction. There are many small churches who would welcome a warm, friendly, intelligent woman.
I'm 50 something and a single woman raised by a single mother, going to church 40 yrs. I can say for certainty churches don't like single women especially ones with kids. They're afraid you might need something or want to steal someone's husband.
Sounds like you're only interested in a church that caters to you instead of you going and serving. Stop looking for someone to meet your needs and start meeting others' needs.
@@KarenTamer-t4b what a cold hearted response.
We attend a church that is a growing church. We move into a new building in 12 weeks, twice the size of the one we are in. It's all about the love we feel from the members of the congregation, the many small groups, our many local missions, the willingness of so many to serve and give, and God speaking to us through our pastors. We are a generous church and God has blessed us because of that. Our pastor recently said during his sermon series called Bearing Fruit, "I know, a few of you have it altogether. You need to find a new church because we will mess you up. I know the pastor, and he's a mess." We are not a perfect church, and we need each other to help us with our imperfections and flaws. We are mostly middle class and lower, but we also have a handful of well off members. We are especially seeing a surge of young families. We may be growing, but our pastor says our goal is not to be the largest church, just the best and healthiest church. We are reaching the unchurched.
Great insights. As a pastor and follower of Jesus who uses video and computer screens all week, I long for a space on Sunday morning where I can worship along with my fellow Jesus followers without screens and videos. Perhaps even opening a hymnal and a Bible during worship?!
Yay
Because science continues to answer more questions and people not as gullible.
Science speaks to very different questions than does Christianity or any religion. The pioneers in modern science dating back to Newton, Boyle, Kepler, Pascal, Locke and then later Maxwell and Faraday were devout Christians who realized that their religious beliefs were not only consistent with science but fundamental to science. If there were no Logos, there would be no rational and enduring nature to the cosmos. If the human mind were not created in God's Image, we would not be rational by nature and could not reason to the truth via the scientific method when that method of gaining truth was pertinent. Now Darwin, full-bore, is wildly inconsistent with Christianity and is also wildly inconsistent with the science. If Darwin were correct about materialism and how the human mind developed, then we would not be rational truth seekers. Rather our minds would have evolved only to survive and not be fully able to recognize the truth of matters in the world or certainly not higher pursuits such as philosophy, music, literature, higher mathematics, aesthetics. In fact, if materialism were true, then consciousness would not have developed at all. Materialism cannot account for the human mind. See the academic literature that is traced to David Chalmers on what he terms as the "Hard Problem" of consciousness for the materialist. Atheism and materialism are not science. They are at odds with science.
What you are confusing with science is scientism, which has been philosophically discredited long ago but more fundamentally leaves a spiritual void in people’s lives as well as in the framework of any community.
You and past guests have spoken to this topic before and I am a litte surprised it was unmentioned here; A great many of those that do not attend, and another great many of those that did, do not see people that regularly attend living their stated beliefs. They see hypocrasy and are unwilling to participate. Until Churches deal with that, things will continue to spiral downward. Thank you for your work Carey.
Excellent point - that is why I quit my church- 8:46 at a bible study I was asking for prayers for my 23 year old niece who was dying of cancer - another lady prayed the the builders of her 1 million dollar house would start working on it (she was living in a nice home while waiting) that was the last straw - I had seen the hypocrisy - the pastor was wonderful so I now watch him online.
@@JayBirdBlue-n1d you definitely should not be around those fallen imperfect people
And the ones who don't attend are not hypocritical?
@@2wheelz3504 not interested in debating and I am exhausted with explaining it. I think you understand my point. If not we can take it off line. This is not the venue.
The church may not be growing as much in America, but the church is growing around the world.
If you asked a pastor a generation or two ago what his gift was he was likely to say "pastor" or shepherd". Now they're more likely to say "evangelist". Pastors don't have the connection with the members anymore. They want to catch the fish but not do the dirty work of cleaning them.
Running a stage show with smoke generators and Lazer Beams is best.
Yes! Good point! These mega churches are very depersonalized and the pastor many times does not take time to meet with people who need help in their lives. The exception is Andy Stanley but then he has compromised his commitment to the truth of Christianity as a supernatural religion. He has become a theological modernist and now focuses on meeting people's needs as did liberal Protestants in the past while leaving behind the spiritual and moral force of Christianity.
Even in smaller churches, many Evangelical pastors fear this same dynamic. They fear that if they also bore in on helping people in their individual spiritual needs or personal and material needs, then the focus would go off of salvation and spiritual development with the attendant denial of the supernatural and the spiritual. Unfortunately, this trade-off has characterized Christianity in the past century or so as if these aspects of the Gospel were mutually exclusive when they are not.
Point 3 - it’s why we chose the church we did when we realized we wanted to be in the church every Sunday. We chose a small Episcopal church with authentic people and a simple, quiet service. People there are seeking to learn Jesus’ message and use it in their everyday lives. Less presentation, more presence - it works!
Dont worry about the style of worship. Just make sure the gospel is being preached. Heaven will be noisy!
Episcopalian have a female lesbeian bishop. Immorality!
Thanks Lord for your salvation and peace and mercy and Patience and Bible study class and constant companionship. Psalm 91 Psalm 50 Psalm 23 Psalm 61
However, mega churches who preach the prosperity bible are growing. It all about God giving "me, me, me" to have continued success, to thrive, to grow, to flourish, and to have wealth and good fortune. I too want a BMW just like my pastor. Janis Joplin; "Oh Lord, won't you buy me a Mercedes Benz? My friends all drive Porsches, I must make amends". When you realize churches are just corporations with brand management, then its time to join the unaffiliated.
Go to a church that is not all about me me me - they are there
@@patriciaperry2028 Good advice. I'm starting by joining The Churches Hunger Outreach Center Food Bank. Jesus links feeding the hungry to ministering to himself. I figure its time to get back to basics and take action vs. sitting in a pew and questioning a ministers motives.
Here is what I see as the main problems. I'll open with the admission that I am a devout Evangelical Christian and rarely attend church. One thing is it's too early. I am night owl and have a hard time getting up and going to church and then not be exhausted the rest of the day. But most people are not wired up as I am. So, that is not the issue with most people who believe as I do with their move away from attending church.
But even if there were more evening services, which are increasingly rare, I would still not be that interested in attending any church service that I am aware of that is around me. When I lived in Atlanta, my hometown, I regularly attended the First Baptist Church of Atlanta when Charles Stanley was the pastor. I still regularly listen to his sermons. They are deeply meaningful to me and give me insight into my relationship with God and how God works in the lives of the people in the Bible and how those same principles apply to my life. Listening to Dr. Stanley is a profound and rewarding experience. Another church that I also attended regularly in Atlanta was Mt. Paran Church of God when Paul Walker was the pastor. Dr. Walker was not a profound as Dr. Stanley but his service was very intense featuring a gifted choir. Dr. Walker presented how God cares for us and works in our lives. He was very encouraging and uplifting. He had a tremendous sense of humor that took the burden of life off of my shoulders. There was also a direct and palpable sense of the Holy Spirit in the service so that I felt the presence not so much of Dr. Walker and the other people who themselves were very friendly and welcoming as important as those influences were, but more importantly I felt a profound spiritual presence permeating the church service. I felt the reality of the supernatural and the supernatural originating in God and not the Occult or some mystical Eastern religion, both of which provide a real sense of the supernatural and a sense of "something more" but of the wrong sort. I attended Buddhist services in Atlanta that were offered by the same sect as the Dali Lama. They also created this very visceral spiritual sense but I know it was demonic. But it was more real and powerful than most Christian church services today. Mt. Paran presented a similar sense of the supernatural but of the kind that is Divine, not demonic. With too many Protestant churches, this sense of the Divine is missing. These aspects of what drew me to church are absent in every service in every church that I have attended since the loss of these figures from the past generation.
Finally, the church is a civic organization whether or not people want to think of it that way. Another church that I attended in Atlanta was Peachtree Presbyterian Church. I got into going to church there because I exercised in their gym and got to know people whom I really liked and respected. It was enjoyable being in the church because of the people whom I met in activities that I enjoyed participating in, and Peachtree Presbyterian Church had a lot of activities that interested me. I did not get much out of the services spiritually, but I did like being on their campus and interacting with people who I related to. That point brings me to a point that many people will not like in the abstract when I say what I am about to say very bluntly but it is a big factor in the decline of many civic organizations including churches and that is racial, ethnic, linguistic, class diversity. As churches reach out beyond their neighborhoods or sections of town to draw in more people, the congregation can become more diverse. While I want everyone to come to know Jesus as their Savior, I don't care to personally associate with just anyone and everyone here on earth. Most people whether or not they want to admit it share the same sensibility. What I liked about Peachtree Presbyterian Church was fitting in with the people there and forming friendships with them. That is not possible in a diverse body of people. It just is not. Social scientists such as Robert Putnam have documented what I am touching on and these studies have been replicated over and over again. One mega-study reviewed 83 of these studies and in every study the researchers found that diversity leads to a loss of social trust as it fragments the population so that even those who are similar flee one another. This tendency is behind the breakdown of civic organizations across the board.
I sure appreciate you, Carey - these aren't easy issues to figure out - I solo pastored for 10years at the turn of the millennium and pretty much burnt out trying. I honestly can't even imagine trying again in today's American culture. it's A TALL order to try and pastor - as never before in this country especially.
1 reason that people arnt going to church anymore is that parents have there kids involved in sports on Sundays.well it would help if the people that plan sports wouldn't schedule sports on Sunday mornings.
While the three initial points seem to me to be something of a stretch, your points regarding what people want is on point. The reality is that throughout history, people leave churches due to their personal self-serving nature rather than being servants of others. When the rich young ruler found out what Christ said he needed to do, he left. So also this applies today.
“Less production, more Presence” is the whole thing for me. I’m 62. I’m a PK and a lifelong Christian. I have not attended church regularly for two years now. And your point number three is the reason why.
Hi, brother. I agree on the less production thing. I'd encourage you though to find some sort of church community, because we're called to live life in fellowship. Whether it's a few folks you gather around a table with or a formal congregation that perhaps feels comfortable "enough." I spend half my time feeling uncomfortable in my church community and the other half the time feeling like everything is perfect, but 100% of the time I feel like I'm where God wants me. God bless you! ❤🙏
The milk has gone sour, the meat has been sacrificed to idols and the noise irritates your digestive system. Politics instead of prophecy, prosperity instead of charity and a sin beating every week has destroyed the hope of my salvation.
Politics instead of prophecy. You aint lying!
We have a personal relationship with god sharing the fruits of the spirit
Because you can look at your own beliefs and look at the church's beliefs and if they don't match, you leave.
I’m not sure I understand or agree with the affluence reason, but everything g else you share is true. I’ve been a church attendee my whole life and am reaching the point of stepping away from institutional Christianity - because I have grown so much more by participating in pars-church ministries and Bible stories than the usual organized religion. I can grow deeper in 4 days in a spiritual retreat than in 2 decades of regular attendance at a typical church.
How is it that the organized church is all about harnessing people to get them busy supporting the programs and learning tips and techniques and yet somehow miss the mark and make the faith way more complicated and burdensome than it was supposed to be. Jesus said take my open because my burden is easy and light. Church participation feels like a heavy and complex burden even though it has morphed over the years by trying to become “seeker friendly” and yet somehow must have simply gone apostate and feel like a needlessly complicated elementary school. Lots of activity and yet. It deepening in discipleship and a growing relationship with Christ . And I have found this true across a range of formerly mainline Protestant denominations.
I was supprised @5:24 you said less presentation and more presence! Ive been preaching thie same this for months. I stopped all PowerPoint, all print ups, and have cultivated a service geared toward pursuing Presence and following the fire. Less events and more saturating prayer and soaking in His presence.
I was shocked when you said less presentation and more presence! That's how they added 3k overnight in Acts.
1. Unity in seeking
2. Holy Spirit showed up
3. Presence through outbreak and outpour shifted to occupation and hosted presence
4. The church grew
That's how the church grew and I determined to stay with that system.
Thank you. I figured you were going to give some 3 step plan that has all kinds of resources about culture and generational needs. All of which is addressed by the PRESENCE OF GOD.
You are the reason Carey
@@patriciaperry2028 For what?
@@GraceAn3what did Cary do but speak truth
@ That’s why I asked @PatriciaPerry2028 “For what?” She said Carey was the reason. I don’t know what she meant by that.
Perhaps the people with two fulltime jobs that barely meet the bills, aging parents and adult children who can't afford a house are using weekends to just connect with their wellness. And the church just makes more demands.
You articulated my struggle with laser beam words and I believe the Lord’s heart.
Amen! Thanks for sharing this!
My mother was a piano teacher. Even when she wasn’t playing the organ or piano for worship services, she and Dad often participated in other ways. Both of them sang - sometimes solos and sometimes duets. They often read the scripture readings or the announcements. Dad was a lay “elder” (he was in his late 30s when I was born) so, depending on the size of the congregation and how often a pastor was available, he and other elders took turns preaching. According to my mother, I was “raised in the front pew of the church” and that continued to be where we sat during services, even after my three siblings were born.
Between the late 1940s and the late 1950s, our parents were members of three different congregations in three different towns but all three had some characteristics in common.
1: The lay elders took turns conducting the worship services. When a pastor was available to preach, his role in the service was to lead in a “pastoral prayer” and to preach the sermon. The “elder of the day” invited laypersons, at least a week ahead of time, to lead out in all other aspects of the service. The pastors didn’t follow a liturgical callander but they always let the elders know well ahead of time what the primary Bible passage for the sermon would be and that passage was read by a layperson (usually not an elder) BEFORE the sermon. Not only that, but the people who read the Bible passage announced the Book, chapter and verses and then gave people time to find the passage so they could follow along as it was being read aloud. This practice precluded something I’ve encountered more and more in recent years - pastors beginning to read a Bible passage and then inserting their own commentary in ways that are confusing to people who aren’t already acquainted with the passage in question. (Is this sometimes intentional?)
2: Some of the sermons were more inspirational than doctrinal but most of the sermons were of such a nature as to encourage members and visitors alike to search the scriptures to see whether those things (what the preacher said) were so. It was years later before it ever occurred to me that some people just believe whatever the preacher says.
3: Most of the pastors and some of the lay elders had developed what our parents called a “preaching voice”, i.e. they had learned to project their voices so that a congregation of 150 people could hear them easily, even without electronic amplification. Because our parents were musicians, they had learned similar techniques known, back in the day, as “the culture of the voice” BUT neither the pastors nor the lay elders shouted and they never paced back and forth while preaching or otherwise “worked themselves into a lather” as if to imply that if they were willing to work that hard at preaching, what they said must be important.
4: Those three congregations used both hymns and gospel songs but a high percentage of the congregational singing was pitched to make it easy for the congregation to sing 4-part harmony. (I have a theory that if people would sing more harmony at home, in church meetings or even in bars, there would be more harmony in society.)
5: Those three congregations had two types of membership: One type was available to people who attended regularly (and “regularly” was carefully defined). Having their names enrolled as members gave people a sense of belonging. (That may be more important to some people than to others but I think there are significant numbers for whom it is important.) The second type of membership didn’t even require “regular” attendance but did involve doctrinal and behavioral criteria. Most of the people who met those criteria not only attended regularly but were “active” in other ways, including holding a variety of offices so the pastors could be free to preach, do pastoral counseling and conduct baptisms, weddings and funerals. Almost everything else can be done by laity and preparing for such responsibilities helps keep people studying not only their Bibles but how to organize for real-time service to other members of the congregation and to members of the larger community.
Three months ago, my wife and I moved to a place 2,876 miles from any place we ever lived before. We have no vehicle so we have watched several worship services online. I would like to find a nearby congregation the services of which I can recommend to our neighbors should the subject ever come up but our sense is that hardly any congregations hold elections anymore. Offices tend to be held by “volunteers” whose primary qualification is that they are willing to accept some responsibilities - or they think they are the one best qualified for the office in question which is worse. (See Philippians 2 beginning with verse 3.)
Hardly any laity even know how to read Bible passages so as to be intelligible to people who hear them read.
Hardly any laity know how to research a biblical topic for themselves using marginal references and concordances (or the Internet) to find passages on the subject in question. Are the clergy intentionally keeping the laity in ignorance of those Bible study tools to encourage the laity to depend on the clergy for guidance?
I’m asking for suggestions from anyone who understands how these failures are contributing to a decline in not only attendance but in participation.
I go to TH-cam so I don’t have to read volumes of information. 😳
@@stevencook4002 I comment on TH-cam videos because people don't have to read my comments.
I am a senior and I have found that the knowledge of the Bible is at an all time low for pastors and laity. One church we attended the “pastors” took a two week online class on Bible study as their qualification to be a pastor and still demanded a six figure income ! The music was so loud that my ears rang for several days afterwards and I don’t want to loose what hearing have left. The people in the church were rude and did not want seniors in there. I have watched many of these videos on why people are leaving the church and they all basically say the same thing. The people are bad and it is never the pastors fault. We have found some excellent churches online and we watch them. I am glad we came to Christ in better times!
@@johngreen1776 My religion is personal - not institutional.
When I say that, I think I mean something similar to what some other people mean when they say, for example, “Christianity isn’t a religion, it’s a relationship” or “I’m spiritual - not religious.”
So why am I intentional about using the language I do (and not using those other statements)?
I’m a citizen of the United States where it is common to define religion as “theism” and where many people assume that all theistic religions are institutional. I hope the language I use serves to challenge both the definition and the assumption.
So here’s the definition of “religion” I’ve been using for several decades: Religion is the sum of those beliefs, practices and prohibitions that pertain to a person’s concept of the highest powers of the universe.
1: That definition includes both personal and institutional religions.
2: That definition includes both theistic and ostensibly non-theistic religions. It includes, for example, people whose god is their belly. (Philippians 3:19 )
Our parents read Bible stories to my siblings and me. They encouraged and helped us memorize Bible passages. (I had memorized more than 150 passages before I was ten.) But they (perhaps Dad even more than Mom) encouraged us to read for ourselves, study for ourselves and think for ourselves. To facilitate that kind of personal study, they taught us how to use concordances and marginal references (this was before we ever heard of the Internet) AND they taught us about such reformers as John Wycliffe (fourteenth century) Jerome of Prague and Jan Hus (late fourteenth and early fifteenth centuries), Martin Luther (sixteenth century), the puritans (especially those who traveled to North America in the seventeenth century), the Wesley brothers (eighteenth century) and other would-be reformers.
The reformers haven’t always agreed with each other but the reforms they advocated were based on their study of the Bible and their conviction that, while not all religious traditions are necessarily bad, the authority of scriptures should be considered primary.
This raises an interesting question: Why are there so many different interpretations, even among people who may be studying the same Bible translations?
The first answer I was able to articulate occurred to me in the 1950s. The Bibles our parents had given my siblings and me had 66 books with stories about Adam, Eve, Abraham, Israel, Joseph, Moses, Joshua, David, Solomon, Ruth, Daniel, Esther, Daniel and Jonah but many of the other children in our neighborhood had Bibles with covers marked, “New Testament and Psalms” or “New Testament, Psalms & Proverbs” so those children were better acquainted with stories about Mary, John the baptist, Jesus, Peter, John the Apostle and Paul.
It wasn’t until the 1980s that someone suggested to me that I might benefit from studying the origins of various METHODS of Bible interpretation such as the historicist method, the preterist method, the futurist method and the idealist/alegorical method. That’s when I discovered that my earlier observation about some people only reading “part of the Bible” was actually quite relevant. Reformers who were acquainted with the Hebrew Bible (the earlier books originally written in Hebrew) tended to use the historicist method of Bible interpretation. People who were less acquainted with the Hebrew Bible tended to use other methods of interpretation.
‘
What does this have to do with the “evidentialist” approach to “defending Christianity”?
Yes, Jesus did miracles and yes, some people did believe he was the true Messiah because of his miracles (John 2:23 and 7:31) but Jesus more often appealed to the Hebrew Bible in support of both his teaching and his claims about himself. The strongest evidence (see Hebrews 11:1) of his Messiahship are the prophecies about him by the Hebrew prophets of antiquity.
Jesus was an observant Hebrew. Yes, he sometimes didn’t agree with the “oral traditions” and rabbinical interpretations of the Hebrew Bible but he was careful to live by the instructions that he, before his incarnation, had given through Moses. (Compare Exodus 3:13 & 14 to John 1:1-3 and chapter 8:56-59.) Jesus observed Passover (Luke 2:40-43, chapter 22:7, 8, 14 & 15). He died on Passover at the time of day when the Passover Lambs were sacrificed. He rested in a borrowed tomb on the same day that he had rested after creating life on this planet. Hs followers rested on that same day rather than embalm his body on the day he had blessed, sanctified and said to remember.
None of which was understood by professed Christians during the more than a thousand years when it was actually illegal in western Europe to try to live as Jesus had lived.
So no, I have no sense of duty to make a case for “Christianity” (or at least what most people think Christianity is).
Instead, I suggest that people obtain a Bible with marginal references and actually read the prophecies that are quoted by Matthew and by Jesus as evidence that he really is who he claimed to be. Then you decide. Do you prefer to follow only the instructions he gave after his incarnation? Or do you prefer to also follow the instructions he gave before his incarnation and by which he lived for his about 33-1/2 years of life on Earth?.
Let the pastor start preaching about holiness, sanctification, being separated from the world. Fasting and praying, tithing. Will people still go oor will they stop.
Is the church available for the people? Do they have Sunday night Church?
Midweek service?
Friday or Saturday youth services?
Anything special for youngbsingle adults?
As a boomer who was part of the Jesus Movement of the 70’s, most of my life Church was a consistent part of our family life. While we embraced the contemporary Christian music or our time, it was not necessarily incorporated into services, which remained somewhat traditional. It was a good mix. These days, try as I might, I simply can’t handle the loudness and inanity of of what is called. “Worship music.” Honestly, it is insulting to have the amps “turned up to 11” while most people simply stand as if attending a concert. This is not in my opinion, corporate worship. Rather, it is performance. At this point, we are sort of giving up on attending church, but will remain committed to our regular study of Gods word with friends and living as a community of believers. Sad to say it, but that’s what it has come to. Hopefully, in heaven, we will hear an occasional melodic cello, violin, oboe and trumpet. We simply can’t stand what now passes for church music. A whole lot of other folk are in the same camp. Too bad.
Amen and Amen!
One distinction not mentioned here is which groups have decreased in attendance. Research demonstrates that young people are less inclined to participate in church attendance. They have been watching, in the case of Christians, their Christian elders and families avoid the way and teachings of Jesus in favor of political ideologies which do not in any was resemble his word and example. Churches have also been rocked by scandals similar to those centuries ago. The abuse of minors by clergy in the Roman Catholic Church to the point where dioceses go bankrupt as they pay for the hurt caused. The pastors of mega churches, who preach a gospel of prosperity, and live in their million plus dollar homes and drive their elite cars. It was these behaviors that have led to reformations throughout history. The value of a community, a community of faith, may have less appeal. The division and hatred of our time does not inspire community for many, as it is not viewed as a safe space. As one who attends church regularly, I am blessed to be in a community of open minds, hearts and doors.
Many believers often forget that we once did and still do things to minimize time with God/church because we do not like to be told what to do. Many of us barely worship on our time then go to assembly and expect to be served. It's on us to go to church and seek God. Purpose of the church building is to minimize distractions and focus on God. Many people do not want to hear God's truth anyway. To church leaders, keep on trusting and working for God. Serving God is not a popularity contest. Lift Jesus up and draw true hearts and expect few people.
great ideas, good video. I agree with all but the "less head more heart". My experience, people are sick of emotional nonsense. They want their faith to make sense. Goes along with the less noise, more space. Slow down, enjoy the quiet, think! Once again, a great video, good ideas I'll bring up at my next bible study. Thanks for posting this.
We quit because the church accepted Trump as God
Not all
I know many people who think churches are too political. Laws are powerless to change people only a spiritual connection with Jesus can do that. The move churches have made towards political power has been going on for years but accepting Trump as their savior is driving many out!
You are more than a little confused.
That's the main reason for me also. Some might deny it and say not all churches. I spent a couple years wholeheartedly seeking one that didn't. Had no luck with my search. I got the sense that those churches really don't want a non worshiping apricot antichrist around either. I see it as a win win for both me and them.
What church/churches done that? Thanks
I've pastored the same Baptist congregation for 24 years now. We've NEVER been high-tech, high presentation. I have Quaker background so silence is often part of our services and we have ALWAYS been small enough to have a public prayer time during the service in which attenders offer praise to God or ask for prayer and we pray for them then and there.
And ...no one is beating a path to our door. And my area minister assures me that we would grow IF we axed the prayer time from our service- which I'm not going to do because why would you hide the thing that is central to your identity?
Anyway, I'm just saying, while we have to stay faithful and keep on, I don't think there's anything we can do to change the trend. Our culture from wealth, from spiritual self-diagnosis, and from a disdain for authority is leaving the Church behind. And we have to live through it.
So true. We have to remain faithful realizing we may never see the results of our faithfulness in our lifetimes. Only God knows the end of the movie.
Please allow me to paste my thoughts in agreement with yours. "Many believers often forget that we once did and still do things to minimize time with God/church because we do not like to be told what to do. Many of us barely worship on our time then go to assembly and expect to be served. It's on us to go to church and seek God. Purpose of the church building is to minimize distractions and focus on God. Many people do not want to hear God's truth anyway. To church leaders, keep on trusting and working for God. Serving God is not a popularity contest. Lift Jesus up and draw true hearts and expect few people."
If you are a reborn believer you need to be in Bible study class mire than Sunday morning service. Thanks Lord for bible study class
Zooming in and out is distracting ha ha. And I appreciate the points he’s making which really do point out that Americans are increasingly selfish. They’re not asking “what can I do to serve God and the local Christian community,” but rather “what’s in it for me?” Hebrews 10:24-25 motivate me to be an integral member of my local church.
i do not agree that Christians are selfish
When I see how much the church's fight on line, I know that's what's going on in my neighborhood.
Actually the Baptist church I go to in Cullman Alabama is growing. So much so that we are building an even larger sanctuary.
Social media...The numerous contradictions in scriptures are now given the scrutiny they deserve. With scholars answering rebuttals. Now , one can discern for themselves.....
I had a pastor, United Methodist, who felt that the sex scandals in the Roman Catholic Church hurt not only Christianity in the U.S., but all faiths.
Why belong to a congregation where a pastor or other church leader (ordained or lay person) can take advantage of children, teens, young adults, or elderly?
Between books, TV, and the internet, directing your own learning of the Bible means no fear of someone in church leadership taking advantage of a family member.
Thanks for the video and your insights. I spend considerable time with “fence-sitters” who likely believe in God, but don’t understand the cult-like attraction of many Christians to someone who unabashedly lies, says horrible things about the kind of people Jesus particularly loved, and has admittedly no remorse. Also, too many focus on certain sins “of the flesh” but ignore the sins of pride and judgementalism. When I speak of or show people what Jesus reportedly said and believed, his radical departure from the moral status-quo, they become more interested. However, they find too many churches that have an “us vs. them” mentality (with “us” being good of course😊) and don’t seem to appreciate what Jesus actually trying say to us.
Thank you!!!!
It is noteworthy that my experiences with churches have predominantly involved institutions governed by powerful entities. These entities establish regulations and typically exercise authority and control. The governing bodies often adhere to a distinct set of principles, leading to a remarkable degree of double standards and hypocrisy. Many individuals feel inadequate in relation to the unspoken rules or these inconsistencies, resulting in a lack of belonging. I have observed churches that marginalize individuals from "less desirable" backgrounds, including those who are economically disadvantaged or different in some way. It raises the question of who would wish to spend eternity in Heaven alongside those who have inflicted harm through hatred and deceit, simply because others do not conform to the church's worldly expectations. When will the church return to its foundational principles of God and the love that should accompany such beliefs?
You've been attending the wrong church. Not all are as you describe.
Services today are basically a corny Christian pop show + a bad TED Talk. No real worship.
Wow! Thank you for giving me words to succinctly express the hollowness I've often seen. God can bless our pop show and TED talk combo when He wishes, but how much more would He move in our services if He were the real center of them? Many times, the sermon is the true center of the show and the pastor is the celebrity focal point.
This service structure creates a precarious situation for a congregation. It encourages people to feel more loyal and connected to the pastor than to God, and to fall away if the pastor fails morally.
As for the pop show, I've often listened to Christian performers and worship artists/bands and felt that they were getting lost in the music, not the Spirit. If you don't know there's a difference, it's easy to confuse the two, especially since for many musicians, the musical hook matters more than the meat or truth of the lyrics.
Lol
thank you for this info A lot to think about!
I'm with you right up until your last point. The modern evangelical church long ago prioritized the 'heart' over the 'head'. Sound doctrine has given way to emotional 'engagement' (read manipulation). Truth is being abandoned in a false dichotomy against 'love' (read sentimentality).
The age old clergy-centered, personality-driven, sermon focused church scene is unbiblical and supplants the “one another” ministry of the saints. Sell the buildings. Meet in homes for mutual edification and growth. Love and simplicity grounded in the truth of Scripture.
WELL SAID
I JUST GIVE UP TODAY FOR THE SAME REASON
I think the reason is because of politics. If I wasn't already a Christian I really wouldn't want to go where people think Trump is so great, that's all they talk about.
Politics and lack of sound biblical theology
You are pathetic
@@davidbocanegraramirez9480hm
I agree as politics and Trump is m has done tremendous damage. Its going to decrease more after the election. As a minister its many evangelicals embrace of trumpism that has done lots of damage.
Thanks Lord for bible study class. Believers need Bible study class more than Sunday morning service
A lot of Orthodox churches are growing like crazy. Apparently, they have found the presence.
What’s missing is the power of God. The presence of the Holy Spirit and the truth of the Gospel. Only in the western countries do we see this. You go to the Middle East and the far east you will see the power and presence. They are praying for us to be reformed.
Lower attendance means empty offering plates. That is the main problem.
A critique of some language: Affluence as defined is not financial affluence, per se. Almost everybody has gotten onto the Internet in one way or the other--that is not financial affluence as much as informational access to other opinions, as well as access to other streams of spiritual guidence. Wealth is creating some of this, but so is our overall society of cell phones and a poicy towards universal internet access. Carey is correct that financial wealth does bring options, including that of travel. In our church, many singles and couples are simply missing because they are off traveling somewhere, the singles most often for work, the couples most often for pleasure. Youth have more access to camps and sports activities, both a sign of affluence of their parents. But even the lower middle class has internet access.
Being someone who cut my teeth on the pews of one of the largest denominations, starting over 70 years ago, have witnessed firsthand (I’m a un/undereducated layman);
1. Loss of Gods power, resulting in no miracles or wonders anymore (dead as a doorstop). We measure church by how loud the music is.
Ask yourself when was the last time someone gave a testimony of a great healing or miracle in your church? You couldn’t shut them up because their joy and thankfulness was overflowing.
2. We are promoters of Calvin (once saved, always saved) and it has destroyed our own church. We told a couple of generations when they were young you’re saved and you can’t be separated from God, if you continue to (practice) sin. The byproduct of this is now as we close almost 400 churches annually, we wonder why. When we interact with our past members as they age, they ask us, why do I need to attend? I’m saved, you told me so, when I was 10YO. Can’t fall away. So, we created our own monster.
What I find interesting now, in this second generation of great church decline is the pastor responds to the earlier X-member, I doubt he was ever saved, as a defense. Then they respond back with, “I’ve observed our old pastor had an affair with a young lady, 20 years his junior. Was he saved prior to preaching for those many years in the pulpit? Our current pastor is having difficulty defending the pastor who filled our pulpit for 20 years, while an active pedophile. Was he anointed why delivering hundreds/thousands of sermons?
3. Having read many books of our history and of other peer denominations have learned this is common. If you read the sermons of the founders of Methodist or Baptist, etc. you will quickly see the church we attend today looks nothing like it did in the late 1800’s or early 1900’s. Our current church leaders would throw Wesley out after his first sermon as being too hard in either the Methodist or Baptist. He would deem most clergy as hypocrites and false teachers.
This reminds me of a scripture in Judges 2:10, …“there arose another generation after them who did not know the Lord, nor yet the work which He had done for Israel.
We removed our alters, there are few tears or joy from a great move of God. We padded our pews, which are now empty. No loud and glorious gratitude, with raised hands, to our sovereign God. No one has ever heard of fasting, much less actually fasted, including the pastor. The number of attendees who have read their Bible from Gen 1:1 to Rev 22:21 in their whole life is a very small group, not to mention a regular love for His word, which He advised was a critical part of survival.
Thus, the byproduct, caused by the clergy, and repeated forgetfulness of the laymen (I’m more guilty than all), is a complete lack of knowledge and understanding of God. Jesus is now a mirror of Santa Claus, always good and certainly hasn’t killed anyone, caused a famine, great calamity, Christians never lived in caves, starved to death, were beaten over and over, exiled on an island alone, etc.
We wanted to control the fire of the Holy Spirit and were so successful, we quenched Him. He has left the building and until we repent and chase Him, He will continue to ignore our prayers.
The label "Evangelical" is not used in it former context. So this is partly down to the definition expanding to cover people who do not go and are unlikely to go while others who might have fit under that label previously still attending but defining themselves differently.
I have 3 more reasons: 1--We quite going to church for over a year because people didn't take COVID cautions seriously. In fact, many proudly proclaimed their refusal to do anything to halt the spread or get vaccinated. I lost a cousin to COVID, and had other friends and family get sick. I have asthma and have had pneumonia 3 times, so I knew COVID would hit me hard. Even now, we sit in the very back, so that in singing, any germs will be carried away from us. 2--We only go in person about half the time, just because the long-winded liturgy and stilted formality can be so draining, rather than uplifting. But when we're not there in person, we are there at home watching the service on Facebook. It's just more relaxing that way, but we do "attend" online. 3--It doesn't affect our family personally, but many families are so into their kids' sports, and there are leagues that play on Saturdays and Sundays for months at a time. Several people I know or work with have several kids involved in different leagues, so that Mom goes with one kid, while Dad goes with the other one, and church just gets left behind.
In my faith we don't talk about Jesus, we enter the heart of Jesus. I've seen too much out there that "talk about", and then expect the congregants to give money. A lot of these are "old testament preachers" use old testament passages that basically teach what all the other worldwide religions teach. What does one expect when the so called Christian church has been divided?
It’s very difficult to satisfy everyone desires in a church service. Personally, I enjoy a quiet orderly service rather than a loud rock concert. Can’t stand long drawn out sermons. Keep it short, to the point, with time to congregate after the service. Unfortunately, I work hard during the week and need some decompression on Sundays. For those that want in debt learning, should attend a Bible study during the week. Actually, I prefer the Catholic Mass, the short to the point homilies, and simple singing. If one wants more, the Catholics have all kinds of conferences, studies and the like. Perhaps for some, it shallow, but for a young busy young family, it works.
Missed here is any responsiblity of the church leadership to lead. All the reasons are on the individual. I would guess that it is some of both but most should be on the leaders to really lead.
I think your second point also relates to the rise of individualism and the overall decline of community in our society. Church was a natural extension of the idea that we needed one another to survive and thrive. Now personal truth, self care, and individual happiness are valued over being an integral part of a community. In this instant gratification society where anything can be delivered to us with a click, we don’t really need anyone until we realize that we do.
You are so right!
Unfortunately he is missing the most important and actual reason. It is because of the actions of leaders and others who led based upon pride & power and not scripture, despite how well they crafted their exegetical sermons. Far too many have been severely burned by church folk and have become disillusioned with being a part of a particular church because they don’t want to be judged, condemned, controlled, abused, or stolen from again. In addition, many people these days have formed their own theologies and the doctrines churches teach do not perfectly align to each person’s theology, thereby removing any loyalty and collective fruitfulness.
There is such a big difference between churches today and churches in the book of Acts
Well said!
Not at Bayside in Bradenton, FL.
I think the obsession with politics has taken away from organized religion. It has driven a wedge into a lot of congregations. I still attend but I do have to listen to a lot that I do not agree with from other believers.
Our pastor has bent over backward to NOT talk about politics so much so that he won’t call evil evil - I don’t appreciate that either and I’m not talking about one singular man
Some issues are both political and Biblical............abortion, same sex marriage, transgenderism ect.
@ Then we should speak to the issues and give the scripture that supports the issues, but not in the context of politicians or political parties. The problem is that politics and religion have gotten so intertwined that people don’t know where one stops and the other begins. We are majoring in minors and when the world sees this, we harm our witness.
I'm surprised by how many M.Div's and D.Mins seem to have missed James 3:1 somewhere along the line. 45 minutes based on 3 verses, but very dramatic and entertaining, i.e, hammer down one point (Jesus as Savior) and missing out on the rest of the story in the same chapter(Jesus as Lord). They seem to take a victory lap because their entertainment value steals members from the smaller congregations in town.
I see the church as an institution. A big reason why I checked out.
I left the church when I realised most Christians don’t live the way Jesus taught his followers to live. In fact I saw more non Christians feeding the hungry, healing the sick, clothing the naked, welcoming the stranger, visiting the prisoner. And they do it without expecting a reward. They do good just because they are good caring people. Jesus left the church a long time ago.
Jesus is the head and His body under the Head is the Church , it is not a building made with hands and it grows daily.
Why are the 8 beautudes not posted in public buildings? The actually words of Jesus! Instead the old testament "10" commandments. Jesus came to give us the good news. Most of us are tired of hearing the old testament vengeful god!
I thank God for my Logos Bible software.
"Change is unkind to the unprepared!"
People are fed up with clericalism!
There are fewer and fewer young people who are desiring to go into full time ministry. Many churches accross the country are without a Pastor...usually these churches are composed of older people.
How about more people self-direct their faith because what they read in God's word differs from what the Church is practicing.
i.e. Sabbath, clean and unclean, festivals.
Ours isn't we are a thriving & growing church. God is ever present in all our services. Over half of our members volunteer in some sort of capacity. We are baptizing & God is filling them with his spirit.
Sounds like Catholicism is the answer. So thankful, I’ve gone back after 30 years of reformed ministry.
My reasons fall in line with your #2 and 3, but I want intellectual stimulation as well as heart (eg Ben Stuart) and also, I’m tired of a lot of the self-centered music and message - “you came in being tired and defeated”; basic “come to Jesus language, niceness instead of kindness , and limited space for female intellectual development.
I’m totally bored with the worship music - stand a long time and repeat the same lines over and over and over and over …
Find a church that preaches the gospel. One day we will all meet God.
Like the Catholic Church.
When church too fell into the trap of politics, then I stopped going. Politics has no place in church, in my opinion. Jesus never spoke about seeking power on Earth, quite the opposite, it is the meek and the persecuted that win favor in the eyes of God. So, many churches have lost their way. I can't help that, but I'm not going to support that either. It is their loss, not mine.
i go to a church that is NO POLITICS but hey I want my pastor to call evil evil and NO I’m not talking about a singular man
@@patriciaperry2028 I don't want my pastor calling evil evil. I want him encouraging me to stay on my path to God. I see religion as a guide for me to follow, not as a comment on others or society.
The reason church attendance has fallen is because the Lord is allowing people to see what life is like without the Holy Spirit to mitigate the consequences that are caused by ignoring the divinity of Jesus Christ. You called it affluence. It turns out this violates the first commandment. “You shall have no other gods before Me." (Exodus 20:2-3).
Your second point of self directed spirituality breaks the 2nd commandment " (Exodus 20:4-6)” don’t worship idols “.
You get the point 3:45
Another reason is the excellent biblical scholarship online these days.
Much harder to gaslight people when they have the facts at their fingertips.
For reason 2, I also wonder how much of it is due to even people we look up as leaders or someone we expect to be knowledgeable about a subject, not having the proper education. The MDiv degree used to be the gold standard for pastors, but it's been steadily declining for years. I'm curious to see if there's a correlation between the two.
Missed here is the wholesale acceptance of Trump and his brand of conservatism by the leadership and institutions of the evangelical community and church. The utter hypocrisy of the leaders like Charley Kirk who preach the gospel of Christian nationalism yet fail to live out the gospel of Christ toward their neighbors. The gospel of Christian nationalism has no room for love, faith, hope. As a former evangelical I find nothing but disgust and contempt for American evangelicalism.
you have no clue what Christian nationalism is, your comment displays a profound ignorance.
yes the elephant in the room Trumpism
That may be because Trump is the only party leader willing to speak up for the return of prayer in schools and that he speaks up for Christianity and declared Jesus Christ as "the Boss"? I think that's why the Evangelicals have sided with Trump. What is Christian Nationalism ?
@@thecagestagecrusader In my comments I have not defined Christian nationalism yet you assume I do not know what it is because I equate certain individuals to the movement. So, pray tell, define Christian nationalism and explain to us how it aligns with the true gospel of Jesus Christ?
@jamesi.5735 the great commission where Jesus orders all Christians to go disciple the nations, teaching them to obey everything he has commanded.
The civil magistrate cannot function without some ethical standard for guidance, if that standard is not the Holy and reveled law of God, what is it supposed to be?
In the end, if the focus is not on the teaching of the WORD AND THE PERSON JESUS CHRIST. Church today is like a buyers market. It suits u. u go there. If not u go somewhere else
The mainline churches have stopped talking about hell or even heaven. Many people no longer fear hell and therefore there is no reason to go to church. In addition, modern medicine as eliminated prayer as a primary form of seeking a cure.
I see a lot of folks saying they are doing church from home, watching a church service on TH-cam.
There seems to be a focus on growing church campuses and presence in communities and not discipleship. Pastors are now CEO's and not shepherds. Too much focus on entertainment and not substance. Finding a church that believes that true discipleship is the way to grow a church is like finding a diamond in the rough!
And Carey used to be an advocate of such
Right on
I am very unimpressed that you did not include any data (from what I could tell in your video) about House Churches. I ended up leaving my former church and denomination when a very painful church split happened. I am now a House Church Pastor (Acts 2:41 and 42) and we have none of the elements mentioned in your piece in the two House Churches (Acts 2:42) . What we do have is a deep and open arms invitation to the Holy Spirit to have His way, His agenda, and a deep family commitment to each other. We do collect tithes that are 100% distributed to the homeless in our area. We have no morgage as we meet in homes, no power bill as we meet in homes, and the kids worship with us ( 1 person with a guitar). We are experiencing growth at a great rate. I am discipling 2 young men (20 and 23) to pastor new House Churches. We live in a depressed economic area of Maine and God is growing His church. I would dare say that as the economic times get increasingly worse in the United States ( and we are quickly heading in that direction) that House Churches will be the norm not the exception. When big ministries and mega churches are failing from decrease in revenue, God will still grow His church and Bride. It just may not look like and be the way that has been measured in the past. God bless you, keep up the great work you are doing, and I'll see you on the other side at the banqueting table.
It's been awhile, but over a decade ago a Barna Poll was done, I think it was, survaying folks contentment with thier church(s), it was found that those in house church's were the happiest and most satisfied of all.
The book "The Master Plan of Evangalism" is a great observation of Christ, but almost never seen in the wild.
The real reason for declining church attendance is actually simple: churches are not structured according to the model of Ephesians 4:11-12. The 5 primary gifts are supposed to train other people like themselves to grow the body. Instead, following the flawed model of Roman Catholicism (and Jean Calvin), everything is put on the pastor. Then, they burn out or bring on other pastors to share the load. Thus, we have large churches where all the leaders are pastors. A hand cannot function correctly with only 1 finger. If you bring back the other 4 primary ministry positions, this will resolve the problem. Without all 5 in place, Christianity cannot demonstrate the spiritual power that should be present, so it becomes just another religion like so many others in the world.
"reasons you're losing church members".... because it's "your" fault. I think I'm done with this business model approach to growing our regular customer base
It’s all about Jesus. Go to church and love and worship him
Time!!!! The juice is not worth the squeeze any longer.
Attending church however when the pastor/proest was endorsing Trump I did not go anymore bec I question their values!
4. Not believing that the local church has people’s best interest in mind.
R.e. church and politics: food for thought, see "Wikipedia psychology splitting", and "Wikipedia psychology looking glass self". Skim through the quotes of the book "The True Believer", by Eric Hoffer on line.
Narcissism is the attempt to define ourselves by externals. Creeds can be externals. Highly recommended reading is Luther's sermon "The Devil is a Thief Who Breaks Into an Empty House". I first came across it on Pastor Wolfmiller's website.
No wonder that Reformation was influential.
Of his three reasons, the second two reasons have some truth. But the clergy still do not yet understand it is the basic church service itself that is the biggest problem parishioners face each week, regardless of Catholic, Protestant or Jewish. For me, synagogues have too much singing, and the Catholic Mass (Latin or not) is too ceremonial. Jesus just preached, so is that enough?
David Murrow: why men don’t go to church. Some mega churches know if you can provide meaning for men in church, women will follow. Also, the medieval church designers got it right. Too much focus today on church as entertainment.
What about the biggest and most obvious reason for decline? The elephant in the room.
People don't believe in God as much as before! The threats of hell and the simplistic explanations don't work so well anymore.
Because of Calvin and Augustine
I can't speak for others. My experience is churches have forgotten the second greatest commandment spoken by Christ. They are way more interested in their "online presentation" and "like" counts.
A lot of apostasy right now in the church. The key is to get a good study bible and study to show ourseles approved. We can then rightly divide the truth
INMHO the church is losing members because they're busy making (one-and-done) converts, not disciples. The Apostles got results because they obeyed Jesus when he said "Make disciples of all nations." He didn't say, "Make converts"...."do alter calls"...etc. Making a convert is easy; making a disciple is hard & requires real commitment.
DON'T NEGLECT THE GATHERING - Hebrews 10:25 Don't trust your own understanding! Jeremiah 17: 9❗ TRUST GOD'S WORD ❗❗❗